Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| [MADRASA] Confusion... Praying clay tablets ? |
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| Anonymous |
| 07/13/01 at 00:07:58 |
| Salaam, I have just converted (4 years ago) to the great religion, Islam. Right now I am doing intense study of the sects (Shi'ite and Sunni). I have visited a lot of sites including, [Websites Deleted by Moderator]. I know the internet is filled with garbage but the references are true. A brother asked me why the Sunnis (majority) don't pray on clay tablets. And I was stunned! I couldn't answer it, here is exact question.. Salaam, I have a question for you guys, no I'm not going to stoop down to your level and call you "kaffir." I jus want this question answered because I never understood why you guys read Sahih Bukari. My question is why don't you guys prostrate on a clay tablet like we do and The Prophet (SAWW, pbuh) did? I have read Shahih (complete) Bukari and I have found numerous references where it shows that the Prophet (pbuh) prayed like this: "Abu Said Al Khudri narrates: The Messenger of Allah used to practice Itikaf (in the mosque), in the middle third of Ramadan. After the twentieth night, he used to return home on the twenty-first, and those who were in Itikaf with him would return to their homes as well. In Ramadan, in which he practiced Itikaf, he would pray the night prayers on the night in which he returned home, and then address the people, instructing them as Allah commanded him. He said, "I used to practice Itikaf for these ten days (i.e. the middle third of Ramadan), but I now intend to stay in Itikaf for the last ten days. Whoever was in Itikaf with me should stay at his place of seclusion. I have certainly been shown (the date of) this Night (of Qadr), but I have forgotten it. Search for it in the odd nights of the last ten days (of Ramadan). I also saw myself (in a dream) prostrating in mud and water." On the twenty-first night, the sky was covered with clouds and it rained, and the rainwater started leaking through the roof of the mosque onto the praying place of the Prophet. With my own eyes, I saw the Prophet, upon completion of the morning prayer, leaving (the mosque) with his face covered with mud and water." Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 3.235 Ok you might say that it was only on the night of Laylatul Qad'r. Well how do you explain this, ?Abu Hazim narrates: Sahl bin Sa'd was asked about the (Prophet's) pulpit, as to what was it made of. Sahl replied: No one is still alive among the people who knows about it better than I. It was made of tamarisk forest wood. So and so, the slave of so and so, prepared it for the Messenger of Allah. When it was constructed and placed (in the mosque), the Messenger of Allah stood on it, facing the Qibla, and said, "Allahu Akbar", and the people stood behind him (in prayer). He recited and bowed, and the people behind him bowed. Then he raised his head, stepped back, descended and prostrated on the ground. He then again ascended the pulpit, recited, bowed, raised his head, stepped back, descended and prostrated on the ground. This is what I know about the pulpit.? Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.374 ------------------------------------------------------- ?Hazrat Maimuna said: The Messenger of Allah used to pray on a Khumra (a palm leaf mat large enough to place one's face, while in prostration).? Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 1.378 How do you explain that? If you aren't satisfied yet take a look at these; ?Abu Sa'eed used to relate that he had seen the Prophet prostrating on wet mud, so much so that he could see mud stains on his forehead.? Saheeh Bukhari, Part I, p. 104 ?Hazrat Maimuna said: The Messenger of Allah was once praying while I was experiencing my menses and sitting beside him. Sometimes his clothing would touch me during his prostration. She added: He prayed on a Khumra (a small palm leaf mat).? Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 376 Now what do you have to say? I don't feel like giving you more quotes, but I'll jus list a few MOREreferences; Saheeh Bukhari, Part 1, p. 97 Kanz-ul-Ummal, Part 4., p. 113(Famous Sunni book of Hadith) Maulana Vahidul Zamankhan (Sunni Alim), author of 'Anwar-ul-Lughat', Chap. 7, p. 118 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do not want to cause any conflict, but I would like to hear a response to my question, because this question always pops up on my mind? Wasalaam Abbas -- Maybe anyone of your guys can help me. Insha'Allah I will choose the right path with an open-mind. I have found a lot of critisizm of the Shi'ites all around the world but if you go to Iran or Iraq their not really what you percieve them to be. But, I don't want to come up with conclusions just yet. Wasalaam Mahmood |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| ki |
| 11/21/00 at 14:07:46 |
| Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu I really dont see in all these hadiths that have been mentioned, where the reference has been to the Prophet (saw) making a sujood on a clay tablet? May Allah guide you brother and all of us to the straight path. |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| Saleema |
| 11/21/00 at 19:01:05 |
| Assalamoalykum, I am not knowledgeable so don't expect an answer from me. :) What I want to say is that in the ahadith mentioned above, some of them mention the prophet (S) praying on a *mat.* That is very different than a clay tablet, they are both made out of different materials. First of all, what is he trying to prove or say? He mentioned that he wouldn't stoop down to calling us kaafirs, but to me that sounds like he's implying it indirectly. Either way it’s all the same. Do the shia pray on clay tablets? My friend is shia and she does not pray on a tablet. I went to the shia masjid with her and the imam and the people were not praying on clay tablets. Although I have never been to any shia masjid in Pakistan, I do know that the one in my neighborhood was not like that. It had mats. But most masjids in Pakistan do, that’s because they are cheaper than carpet. I am not sure what that person was trying to say exactly, that the imam should lead the prayer on a clay tablet or *everyone* should pray on a clay tablet? If he means to say that *everyone* should pray on a clay tablet, then I didn’t see any evidence of it in the ahadith. God knows best. Again don't take what I say to be the fact; I may be far from it. Inshallah, someone on here who is knowledgeable will clear up the matter. I would like to say just one more thing that there are some practices of the Prophet (S) that are obligatory upon the Muslims and there are some that are not. All mistakes are mine and all good is from Allah. May Allah forgive me for anything that I might have said that is wrong. wassalam |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/22/00 at 16:23:44 |
| Assalamu'alaykum, I strongly recommend that you read the book Talbis Iblis, translated into english by Bilal Philips under the title "The Devil's Deception", published by Al-Hidaayah Publishing and Distribution, UK. Phone number: 0121 753 1889, fax:0121 753 2422. Please take the time to read that book. It will, incha'Allah, remove much of the confusion you are in at the moment. I ask Allah to guide you to the straight path. I would also like to advise you to make du'as (invoking Allah): ask Allah to guide you to the true islam and to help you follow the example of the Prophet (sallalahu 'alayhi wa salam). Wassalam |
| To Answer the question about the clay tablet |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/26/00 at 00:11:53 |
| Salaam Alaikum I would like to address the question that confused brother Mahmood brings up. He is correct but is also incorrect. The prophet prayed on natural surface. Nothing synthetic. He prayed on objects that were from the ground. Like Grass, leaves, dirt, clay, mud, etc. Not only clay tablets. The Sunnah is however to pray on something natural (not synthetic of which origin is not known) -- Shaykh Haroon Sellars also says the same. Thanks, Abdul Khudoos |
| NS |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| Guest |
| 12/02/00 at 22:13:02 |
A man came to imam maalik and said to him why don't you dye your beard as the prophet did? imam malik said 'these people have taken justice away from the people and he wants me to dye my beard' |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| Kashif |
| 12/03/00 at 12:39:27 |
| assalaamu alaikum - With all the evidence presented in the e-mail from your friend, there is no explicit mention of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam placing his forehead on a clay tablet in prostration. If the books of hadith have noted exactly the way in which the Prophet would hold his arms in prayer (i.e. right arm over his left) and even to the extent of the mode in which he sat in prayer, how come there is no explicit record of him prostrating on a clay tablet found? - To use the hadith describing the muddied face of the Prophet as a proof that he prayed on a clay tablet is sheer folly, because the reason why his face was muddied is given IN the hadith itself: "...On the twenty-first night, the sky was covered with clouds and it rained, and the water started leaking through the roof of the mosque onto the praying place of the Prophet. With my own eyes, I saw the Prophet, upon completion of the morning prayer, leaving (the mosque) with his face covered with mud and water." Bukhari Hadith 3.235 Meaning, that on a night of exceptionally heavy rainfall, water leaked through the roof falling onto the floor of the masjid which was just a normal unfurnished piece of ground - because they didn't have carpets in those days and the Prophet prostrated in that place during the course of his prayer. In my mind, the person trying to use this as an evidence is either not very smart, or is being disingenuous with you, since neither this or the other hadith cited prove his argument at all. The books recommended above are definitely worth reading in particular "talbees iblees." |
| NS |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| Saleema |
| 12/03/00 at 16:45:53 |
| Assalam ualykum, Well brother Kashif set the record straight! I hope you will choose the right course, May Allah guide you to it.Ameen. :) wassalam |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| M.F. |
| 12/12/00 at 06:52:14 |
| Assalamu alaikum, From what I know, the Shia did not start praying on a clay tablet because the Prophet (S) did (and we know he didn't otherwise it would have been mentioned very clearly). It is actually a practice they started doing way later: The clay tablets originally were made from clay from Karbala (I believe) where Al Hussein was murdered. They took the clay believing it had Barakah or was sacred or something, and then after that, everybody started to pray on clay tablets that were symbolic of that. I've seen people praying on pieces of Kleenex when they didn't have a tablet. As you can see it has nothing to do with the way the Prophet (S) prayed but rather with something they started doing on their own. Of course not all Shia pray that way. But I think it's pretty clear from the hadeeths you posted that there's no clay tablet, just regular earth where everyone was standing. As for the pulpit, it's just a high place where he stood so everyone could see him. He probably descended from it when he was prostrating so it wouldn't look like he was higher than the others and that they were prostating towards him, and also to humble himself before Allah. |
| Re: Confusion... |
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| BrKhalid |
| 12/12/00 at 07:25:44 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum [quote]My question is why don't you guys prostrate on a clay tablet like we do and The Prophet(SAWW, pbuh) did?[/quote] "The (whole) earth has been made a mosque (or a place of prayer) and a means of purification for me, so wherever a man of my ummah may be when the time for prayer comes, let him pray." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 335) Clay tablets and non clay tablets are all included :) |
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