Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Ikrima |
| 08/20/00 at 23:13:45 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, My married friend and I were dicussing how to behave with one's wife in public. I am of the opinion that hugging and kissing should be kept inside the home. My friend and I wondering about holding hands. If anyone knows of a ruling or just wants to express their opinion, please reply. Assalaamu alaikum. |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Kashif |
| 08/21/00 at 09:32:59 |
| assalaamu alaikum I'd definitely agree that its wrong to be hugging one's wife in public & Allah has commanded us to be modest. BTW. Why do some muslim men - mainly in the elder generation - tell their wives to walk a few metres behind them? I recall someone saying that it was perhaps out of modesty or something?That the man didn't want to get tempted by his wife or something? LOL Kashif Wa Salaam |
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| bhaloo |
| 08/21/00 at 09:37:12 |
| Asalaam alaikum wrt wb, Kashif, I never heard an explanation for it, but that is pretty funny. I don't know if you heard this joke or not. Before the Gulf war women in Kuwait walked a few feet behind their husbands. After the Gulf war (and after mines were all over the place), women walked a few feet in front of their husbands. OUCH, I know, bad joke. ;) |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Saleema |
| 08/21/00 at 21:19:55 |
| Assalamoalkum, LOL. That was a good joke actually bhaloo. Brother kashif- your explanation of the whole thing about women walking behind their husbands is pretty bizzare. :) I have heard that when long time ago in the days of highway robbers and stuff, the men used to make the women walk behing them so in case some crazy robber comes along the women will be protected. since the husband/father/brotehr/ect. is walking in the front, the danger will find him first and maybe he will be able to stop it so that it doesn't get to the woman. It was a show of a lot love and affection, that the man with the woman respected her and cared for her as a wife/mother/sister/, sister in Islam,etc. Why is it still done today? I don't know. But as they say, old habits die hard and so maybe that's the reason. I don't see anything wrong with holding hands in public. But I'm not a mufti so don't take my word. How about trying the local imam? Wassalam |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| se7en |
| 08/21/00 at 23:06:40 |
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, bhaloo :( Not funny. I guess it's similar to men walking on the side closest to the road in western etiquette. Somehow it's been made into sign of subservience, inferiority, at least to western observers. From what I understand it's common among eastern cultures, like in the Vietnamese tradition. "He felt guilty about the way he had treated his mother, which was ridiculous because he had been respectful. Unfailingly respectful. Admittedly, he had been impatient with her, and he was pained now to think that maybe she had heard that impatience in his voice. He didn't want to hurt her feelings. Never. But sometimes she seemed so hopelessly stuck in the past, stubbornly and stupidly fixed in her ways, and Tommy was embarassed by her inability to assimilate into the American culture as fully as he himself had done. When he was with American-born friends, his mother's thick Vietnamese accent mortified him, as did her habit of walking one deferential step behind his father. Mom, this is the United States, he had told her. Everyone's equal, no one better than anyone else, women the same as men. You don't have to walk in anyone's shadow here. She had smiled at him as though he was a much-loved but dim-witted son, and she'd said, I not walk in shadow because have to, Tuong. Walk in shadow because want to. Exasperated, Tommy had said, But that's wrong. Still favoring him with that infuriating, gentle smile, she'd said, In this United States, is wrong to show respect? Is wrong to show love? Tommy was never able to win in one of these debates, but he kept trying: No, but there are better ways to show it. She gave him a sly look and ended the discussion with one line: How better - with Hallmark greeting card?" |
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| tree |
| 08/22/00 at 05:24:12 |
| Asalaamu alaikum well i was told that the woman walks behind the man because she is not considered equal by some men and so doesn't deserve to walk next to the husband in public! Man, i didnae know that there were so many different reasons for one small thing! |
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| Kashif |
| 08/22/00 at 08:35:29 |
| assalaamu alaikum Sis Saleema, Your suggestion was bizarre too. I understand what you're saying about the guy walking ahead as a form of protection, but imagine now that you're walking thru an area (no street lighting) what will warn you if your wife gets kidnapped from behind you and you keep walking on? --- "Oi Woman! When we get home i want you to make me some roti!" [hears a rustle in the bushes behind him] "What was that? You'll make rice? I'll teach you rice..." [turns around] *wife has disappeared* |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Saleema |
| 08/22/00 at 11:18:13 |
| Assalamoalykum, Haha. That was funny. :D Now that you pointed it out, it is pretty bizzare too. So is there any good reason out there for it?!? Don't we have any Arabs on here? maybe they will know. Wassalam |
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| Safiya |
| 08/23/00 at 00:11:57 |
Salaam Alaykum kashif thats soo funny, thast exactly what i was thinking how on earth is a husband supposed to protect a wife he cant see i think the whole idea is ridiculous its not only with the elder generations only about a week ago i was a couple doing that the wife was walking soo clsoe behind him aswell...i think its strange i can understand if there are other men with the husband so as not to cause temptation he wife might walk behind(if she wants to-even if she is modestly dressed) i think i would only walk behind if there was someone else with me... i have seen a couple islamically dressed holding hands, i think it just shows that thier married anyone with a sad mind would only interprete it differently knowing the beliefs of muslims... |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Moe |
| 08/24/00 at 01:17:40 |
| i dont thik there is any thing wrong with holding hands in public! after all its your wife! |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| NizarAlsaid |
| 08/24/00 at 12:16:30 |
| As'salaa Alaikum, Praise be to Allaah. This is one of the things that go against true manliness or chivalry (muru’ah). It is very cheap and vulgar to do this in front of people, because this is a kind of foreplay with one's wife in front of others. So keep away from doing such things. You can show your love for her in other ways, and when you are alone with her, you can do whatever you like, within reason. May Allaah help us to do all that is good. Wa Salaam, Nizar Alsaid |
| Careful, careful!!! |
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| Arsalan |
| 08/24/00 at 13:52:15 |
| Assalamu alaikum, I think the original questioner was asking the answer from the perspective of Qur'an and Sunnah, not our personal thinking and opinions. With regard to what Moe said, brother, how can you back up what you said? You see no problem with holding hands. How about hugging on the airport when bidding farewell? How about kissing? Need I go on?? Are all these ok too? With regard to what Nizar said, how can you forbid something that Allah has not forbidden? Or has he forbidden it somewhere? I think the point in question is not a simple one to answer. I would consult a shaikh on this, and refrain from giving our own UNscholarly opinions. Sorry if I offended any scholars out there that might be on the board :) Wassalam. |
| Re: Careful, careful!!! |
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| Arsalan |
| 08/24/00 at 13:54:56 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote]I think the original questioner was asking the answer from the perspective of Qur'an and Sunnah, not our personal thinking and opinions. [/quote] Sorry, I read the original post more carefully after I posted my post, and I guess Ikrima was also asking for people's opinions. But I think it is safer to refrain from giving personal opinions in matters of fiqh, unless those opinions are based on something credible. And of course, I'm advising myself before anyone else. Wassalam. |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Kathy |
| 08/24/00 at 20:47:45 |
| as salaamu alaykum. Nizar's reply was verbaitum from Islam Questions and Answers regarding hand holding in public. I did not post it because I did not understand the position that holding the hand of your wife would threaten a man's chivalrey or manliness! Is it something like the jewelery question? Every culture has different opinions as to what verifies or nulifies a man's "man- ness" Usually this site provides hadith to support their views. Like the jewelry one, they did not. |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| NizarAlsaid |
| 08/25/00 at 09:56:12 |
| As'salaam Alaikum wa AlhamdiAllah. Questions like this about how we act in public is when we look at the life of the Prophet(saw) and try to mimic his qualities of humilty and avoiding acts of suspicion in public. Now, as far as Quran, you will not find an ayah telling you whether or not you can hold your wife's hand or more than that in public because of the nature of the Quran. The Prophet(saw) clearly is understood to be in public quiet/humble/subtle/God-fearing/etc. therefore from aqeedah we are taught from the actions of the Prophet(saw) that he never did such in public, so why are we then saying it is okay? Maybe because of aqeedah. Also, when we say public, what are we referring to? to and from the car and masjid or in the mall? that is an important variable. Our aqeedah should tell us not to hold our wive's hand in public because of the reason and idea's behind hijab. Along the eight conditions of hijab we find that one of them is articles that will bring attention to the lady which should not be there and holding the wife of your hand or more in public will bring that attention to the couple. Besides, a question like this can only be answered properly by looking into the lives of the Prophet (saw) and the lives of his Sahaba (may Allah be please with them all) where you will find that it was not a practice amongst them; infact, the whole husband-wife relationship practiced today is far from that as well compared to mainstream Islam. Unfortunate, but true. As'salaam Alaikum, Nizar Alsaid |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Kathy |
| 08/25/00 at 11:05:56 |
| As salaamu alaykum. I do not have enough knowledge to debate the actions of the Prophet pbuh. I do question one of your statements: [quote] Along the eight conditions of hijab we find that one of them is articles that will bring attention to the lady which should not be there and holding the wife of your hand or more in public will bring that attention to the couple. [/quote] What do you mean by- "the lady which should not be there" And by bringing attention, I do not think you can use that as an arguement for as any hijabi woman can tell you, many more look at us and our scarves bring too much attention- I'm sure a lot more than hand holding. I do not know if you are right or wrong- but do you have a different way to convince me of your position? |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Arsalan |
| 08/25/00 at 11:18:20 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Br. Nizar, if we do not find an act being performed by the sahaabah, it does not necessarily make it a forbidden act to be performed by us. Any act is halaal until you can find a proof for it to be haram. An exception to this, of course, is innovations in matters of the Deen. If we don't find any incident in history which shows us that the sahabah used to hold their wives' hands, this does not necessarily make it forbidden to hold the hand of your wife in public. The only thing which would make it forbidden is if there was a specific saying of the Prophet (s.a.w.) regarding this matter (or something similar), or one of the companions, or a scholar of Islam. If you can produce any of these, then you have a strong point. Otherwise, I would say you have a weak case. P.S. Is it ok to call your wife "sweetheart" in public (or at least among other people who are non-mahram to her - like your brothers)? The sahaabah never did so ... hmm! Wassalam. |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| Saleema |
| 08/25/00 at 12:04:55 |
| Salam, salam! I was about to write the same thing as you brother about how everything is halal until proven haram. Just so no one debates this, he is right people! So what we need to look for is whether if hand holding is an instrument for acts such as kissing, etc. in public. What is everyon'es input, opinion, fiqhi knowledge on this? Wassalam |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| NizarAlsaid |
| 08/27/00 at 21:38:52 |
| As'salaam Alaikum wa AlhamdiAllah. With regard to my statement quoted by kathy, allow me to insert the appropiate punctuational marks: "Along the eight conditions of hijab, we find that one of them is articles that will bring attention to the lady, and this article which should not be worn or acted, defies the idea behind holding the wife of your hand or more in public will bring that attention to the couple. In essence, when I think of the physical hijab for ladies and the mental hijab for men, i think of some words like "humility", "modesty", and "lowering ones gaze" and when i think of holding of ones wife's hand in public does not seem to be in the same word association of hijab. I am not saying that it is haram to hold your wife's hand in public, but what I am saying is that how is one to carry the complete qualities of hijab for both men and women and carry one's wife in public. This is not one of major issues in today's muslim community compared to the rising divorce rate among Muslims. Back to the point that i am trying to make. If men and women are to have separate enterances into the mosque and (ma'haram) men and women are not to intermingle together, then where can holding your wive's hand be a comforting thing. The point that I am trying to make is in the context of a muslim community or environment. Now, on the contrary, when one is in public in which the community and environment is kaf'fer, I would view holding the hand of your wife as a sign of unity/equality. Allahu 'Alam. Wa Alaikum Al Salaam, Nizar Alsaid |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| humble_muslim |
| 08/29/00 at 12:29:29 |
| When I went to Hajj last year, I found holding hands, and even holding arms between husband and wife, to be VERY common, and no-one seemed to object. I have even seen a couple doing sai holding hands. |
| Re: Behavior w/ wife in public |
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| NizarAlsaid |
| 09/05/00 at 12:04:59 |
| As'salaam Alaikum Wa AlhamdiAllah. Brother, Hajj is one thing. Groups usually do that to stick together, husband and wife, brothers, etc. as a means to stay together amongst millions fears to be split apart. The intent is not the same as posed by the question. We are referring in casual environments. I respect your opionion and input. Hajj is a unique situation beyond the intent of the original question with regard to holding hands in public. |
| Misapplying qawaid and adducing non-evidence. |
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| AbuKhaled |
| 09/07/00 at 05:40:55 |
| Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Dearest brothers and sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah to you all. With regards to the question of a husband and wife holding hands in public, I have noticed a common misapplication of a shariah qa'ida [principle]- may Allah (awj) forgive my arrogance in stating that- based on a contemporary misunderstanding that is widespread. Since I have previously addressed this on the old Jannah Board, I am reposting my words, with some modification. Before I do so, I'd like to point out that *nothing* advanced thus far in support of the prohibition of doing so actually constitutes a shar'a daleel, with respect. Most of what has been said are aqli [rational] reasons which attempt to utilise- wrongly- Islamic notions about modesty, humility, muru'ah, etc., *none* of which are shar'a dalail warranting tahrim [prohibition] of actions. Such characteristics are not shar'a dalail for actions, which instead require daleel tafsilliyah [detailed avidences]. However, the attributes cited are not even classified as daleel ijmaliyyah [general evidences]. Whilst I do not have the dalail to hand, I myself have heard that it is sunnah (i.e. mandoub/mustahab) for a husband and wife to hold hands in public. In case that raises any eyebrows, since it seems to go against the grain of what others have said so far, I will endeavour so seek out the daleel, which of course, will be naqli [textual]. So until then, or if I cannot, please don't take that as a given, for it will then be on my neck in the hereafter. I only mentioned it so those who are seriously interested in the question might have some idea that there is some daleel supporting the holding of hands in public, and can go away and research more on the subject. From my distant recollection I think there are ahadith about the Prophet (saw) holding the hand of Aisha (ra) in public, wallahu a'lam, *but please verify*! When the famous shari'i qa'ida “everything is halal unless there is a text that says its haram,” is applied to the context of *actions,* it highlights a misunderstanding and misapplication of the qa'ida. This qa'ida does *not* refer to amal, but to *things.* Despite the common application of this qa'ida to actions, it is nonetheless wrong, and in proof of this assertion I will adduce some quotes of what two of the Classical Ulema have said on the issue. Thereafter, those who might still venture to disagree, could you please then- for my own edification- cite the daleel and hujja [proof] which permits the extrapolation of this qa'ida to actions. I will be greatly indebted, since I cannot see any justification for this erroneous application, other than my own ignorance. To quell any possible concern that I am speaking without basis, I would like to quote from “The Reconstruction of Legal Thought in Islam;” authored by Dr Riaz-ul-Hasan Gilani [revised edition published around 1977]. Sayyid Gilani was the Advocate to the Supreme Court of Pakistan and Secretary for the Lahore High Court Bar Association, and lectured in the Punjab University Law College. He was, according to Maulana Abul A’la Maudoodi (ra) (who wrote the Foreword) well-versed in modern law & jurisprudence, as well as Islamic Law. I mention this not as an endorsement, but just for your information, so you are aware of his background, and because my words carry no weight. [NB: words which are parenthesised in {} are mine, and tend to be transliterations of arabic from the quoted text] “The famous legal maxim *as aslu fi al-shiya’ ibaha* means that the basic presumption in the case of things is permission. It may be noted down that the presumption of permission is with things [al-shiya’] and not with social actions [af’al]. Things may mean the material objects and techniques which are basically permitted to be selected according to the option of the people unless something is specifically prohibited. Sometimes things are confused with social actions, but it should be noted that basic presumption in case of actions is the provisions of the Shari’ah and not the freedom or permission [ibaha]. Every social action is end in itself. The presumption or freedom in case of actions amounts to the dangerous belief that the provisions of the Shari’ah are not comprehensive. Ibn Taimiya while confronting with such attitude, writes: ‘In the Shari’ah no action {amal} is obligatory {wajib} unless it is made so by the Prophet (peace be upon him). Similarly no action is prohibited {haram}, desirable {mustahab}, undesirable {makruh} or permissable {mubah} unless declared by him (peace be upon him).’ [Ibn Taimiya, Al-Qa’idat al-Jalilah, p99] And he writes in another book: ‘And the basic and comprehensive presumption is reliance on the provisions of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.’ [...] Ghazali says: ‘And the right version is that an argument without support from the text in the negative or positive is unimaginable in the Shari’ah.’ [Ghazali, Al-mankhul, p132]” [taken from pp 137-138 incl.] ENDQUOTE. Even if- just for arguments sake- I were to concede to the application of this principle by those who use it to justify actions as being halal, it would still force such an advocate to go to the text *first,* before declaring the act as halal. Because were it to be adhered to properly, it too would force the proponent to go to the naql [text] first, in order to know whether there is a specific text prohibiting that alternative, beforehand. One could not just presume the alternative to be halal without consulting the text, and this would require an exhaustive and comprehensive visit to all the primary usul [sources], and the dalail which spring from them, rather than just a cursory glance through our Sahih Bukhari's and Muslim's, and the other common books, which only constitute a part of the available dalail, and by no means all of them. But like I said, that is just if I concede to the argument, which I don’t. So it is not enough- nor appropriate- to issue a presumption of legality (and I am not saying anyone has) just because "I haven't seen any evidence which says you can't," for this presumes access to *all* the necessary dalail, and who but the Ulema have recourse to this? Without this intimacy of the primary sources, to assume shari'i il/legality is to shoulder a responsibility which may have grave consequences in the akhira if one was wrong, for to make halal what was haram, and vice versa, as well as that which lies in between, is to sign on behalf of Al-Shaari' [The Legislator], as Ibn al-Qayyum (ra) mentioned in I'lam al Muwaqi'een. Thankfully none of us here (in this thread) has transgressed this limit, alhamdulillah. May Allah (awj) protect us all from pseudo-scholarship. I hope this shows that the words of this ignoramus (i.e. me) are not based on his own ra’y [opinion] and hence weightless. But that the Classical Scholars were of this view, wallahu a’lam, and this is from where the correct, authentic and orthodox Islamic understanding is taken. That which was of the truth, is only by the Grace and Rahma of Allah (swt), only the mistakes were mine, astaghfirullah. Ma’assalam, Abu Khaled |
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