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voters?
Kashif
09/28/00 at 11:31:54
assalaamu alaikum Often one can be bombarded with so much information from the internet it becomes hard to fathom it all. But if you keep an archive of sites and news, upon re-visiting you look at the news in a different light. I clearly remember reading this item of news, and for me, it (combined with other things that i'll give you links to) is why *I* wouldn't vote for Bush. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/ headlines/world/article.html?s=asia/headlines/000119/world/afp/Bush_salutes_US_air_strikes_on_Iraq_as__Lord_s_work_.html Wednesday, January 19 9:07 PM SGT Bush salutes US air strikes on Iraq as "Lord's work" AHMAD AL-JABER AIR BASE, Kuwait, Jan 19 (AFP) - Former US president George Bush on Wednesday told American airmen based in Kuwait to enforce a no-fly zone over Iraq that they were doing God's work. "I'm delighted that I've been invited out here today to salute you, who, in my view, are doing the Lord's work," Bush said to rapturous applause from 400 troops of the 332nd Air Expeditionary Group. Bush, silhouetted against a huge US flag, praised the airmen's mission at this desert air base. "Iraqi minions pillaged this great country," he said. "I hope no-one in the US Congress or anywhere else in the United States forgets the importance of this mission ... or underestimates it. "We (US) are a moral country and we made a moral statement in January 1991 that that aggression will not stay, and you are making a moral statement today," he said, referring to the Iraqi invasion and Gulf War that followed. "You are making sure this aggressor (Iraqi President Saddam Hussein) knows that his aggression will not go rewarded but punished," Bush said to the crowd assembled in a disused hangar to the background hum of incoming helicopters. Bush was decorated with Kuwait's highest award and given an honorary doctorate in 1993 for his role in the US-led Gulf War victory over Iraq, whose troops occupied Kuwait for seven months from August 2, 1990. The former president's visit to the emirate came on the ninth anniversary of the start of the six-week conflict. His son, also called George, is the leading Republican candidate for this year's US presidential election. Stepping down from the podium, Bush mingled with the airmen to the strains of piped marching tunes, merrily signing hats and posing for group photographs. Ahmad al-Jaber air base, 80 kilometres (50 miles) southwest of Kuwait City, is the temporary home of dozens of US warplanes which have been punishing Iraqi violations of an exclusion zone in southern Iraq with air strikes. Squadrons of US F-16 Fighting Falcons, F-18s and A-10 Warthog ground attack aircraft all fly out of the base. Some 3,500 US troops and staff are also stationed at Kuwait's Camp Doha, where the US military prepositions and stockpiles equipment for use in live firing practice and desert training. Bush's main ally during the Gulf War, former British prime minister John Major, is also in Kuwait on a private visit for the anniversary. The emirate signed defence accords with London, Washington and Paris after the conflict.   ~~~~~~~~~~~ Now read one or two articles that are linked to this page: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/index_iraq.html and tell me, if you think that the son of the man who instigated the death of millions of our Iraqi brethren is worthy of our votes? Unfortunately, the Jewish influence of his main opposition makes that a dangerous option too. Perhaps this is one of the nawazil that the fifth rightly-guided Caliph spoke about: "Allah sends down nawazil in accordance to the people's sins." - Umar ibn Abdul `Aziz

Re: voters?
Arsalan
09/28/00 at 10:21:33
Assalamu alaikum, Kashif, so you've shot down Bush and you've shot down Gore.  Who do you suggest the American Muslims should vote for ??? By the way, I never understood this point.  Why is Umar bin Abdul Aziz known as the 5th Guided Khalifah?  Why isn't it Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib??

Re: voters?
Kashif
09/28/00 at 10:30:05
assalaamu alaikum The answer is that i don't know - there are no easy answers at all. I just don't wish to be in the position of being asked by Allah on the D/Judgement why i cast my vote for a person who all indications pointed towards would inflict misery on His servants. Kashif Wa Salaam PS I realise the issue isn't as black and white as i portray. and out of curiosity, is there any movement in the US that is trying to get muslims to bloc vote? CAIR is about the only one that i've heard of.

Re: voters?
Arsalan
09/28/00 at 10:43:58
Wa'alaikum assalam, [quote]and out of curiosity, is there any movement in the US that is trying to get muslims to bloc vote? [/quote]I don't know of any.  The problem is that non-profit organizations are not allowed to do that.  And since most influential organizations here are non-profit (Isna, Icna, etc), they can't openly come out and say "Muslims!  Vote for so and so." I wonder who Imam W.D. Muhammad is lobbying for though.  Any word out there?

Re: voters?
Saleema
09/28/00 at 11:16:03
Assalamoalykum, So Kashif, what do you suggest we Muslims in the US do? Be like sitting ducks? We have to take little steps forward, and eventually, we will become a big force. If we don't start today, then we will never get there. Over the years, Muslims have been becoming more organized, more aware of the situations around us and the voting record is increasing. It is unrealistic to say that we will be able to form a block vote in large numbers so quickly, things take time. This is the way things happen in the real world. Things start out slowly. At least, we are offering a solution, people who are against the Muslims voting, what is their solution? Praying only? Well, we are voting *and* asking God for help. If you have a possbile solution to a problem then I would consider what you were saying. But you don't. Like they say, you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem. I am sorry if i am being harsh. But I am sick of hearing this from so many people. Well, all these people who are saying what you are saying, we *would* be able to form a vote block large enough to get noticed at least. And things could really take off from there. Did you ever think of this? Allah knows the intentions of hearts. We are trying to do this because of our Musim brothers and sisters who are suffering. We are doing this for the future generations over here, we are doing it for humanity, we are doing it for Islam! we are doing God's work!!! If we don't do anything now, 20 years from now we will still be in this situation, crying for our brothers and sisters around the world, crying for ourselves and the pathetic situation we are in. As the years will pass, more and more Muslims will inshallah see that there *is* something that they can do. That they *can* make a difference. And 20 years from now, inshallah, we will be a strong special interest group who can help out Muslims who are suffering, and not only them, but others as well. Anyone who doesn't want to help out in this jihad, in my opinion, thenshouldgomove in with the Kashmiris, the Iraqis, the Chechnians... If people can't do anything for them, besides giving out a few dollars that will save only a life in a miserable condition, then how are they going to answer to Allah I wonder? While they were leading happy lives, people around them were dying. That they could have gone to the root of where all the policies are made that killed the Muslims and others as well, but they didn't. How can you reject something outright like that without giving it a try? It's all about trying Kashif, all about trying and learning from your mistakes. I am sure you have heard of choosing the better of two goods and choosing the lesser of two evils. Wassalam PS  Look I hope you took no offense

Re: voters?
bhaloo
09/28/00 at 11:38:25
slm Kashif, I had to break up your URL link onto 2 lines, because when it was on one line it made it difficult to see the message window and one has to scroll.  Its just a feature of the software. With regards to the voting thing: We are basically left with Bush or Gore. 1) Either we do nothing and let people think that Muslims have ZERO influence in this country and can not effect the outcome of anything.  Thereby ignoring Muslim issues in the future. 2). We do a bloc vote for some candidate and create an AWARENESS among politicians that they need to take us serious and have policies that are beneficial to us.

Re: voters?
Kashif
09/28/00 at 12:24:13
assalaamu alaikum [quote]If we don't do anything now, 20 years from now we will still be in this situation, crying for our brothers and sisters around the world, crying for ourselves and the pathetic situation we are in. [/quote] If memory serves me correct, weren't we crying for ourselves and our brethren at the time of the last election? and the one before that too? And in that time, the sahwa has suffered setbacks here, and more seriously, been repressed in our home countries; the media blitz villifying Islam has continued unabated... what makes you think that the situation is going to be different come the next election and the one after that? If you think that the muslims are more organised than before, lets pick up this thread in two months time on the night before Ramadan and discuss muslim unity and organisation. [quote]As the years will pass, more and more Muslims will inshallah see that there *is* something that they can do.[/quote] Take a look at the 'Islamicness' of the muslim kids coming thru the public schools - is that who you're going to rely on to make the "right" choice in coming years? Its amongst these very muslims who you're relying on for future support that we're seeing deviations like "muslim gays" appearing. [quote]That they *can* make a difference. And 20 years from now, inshallah, we will be a strong special interest group who can help out Muslims who are suffering, and not only them, but others as well.[/quote] The future is in the Hands of Allah and nothing happens except by His Permission, azza wa jall, but i don't see any indication at all that we'll be an influential group in 20 years time, except perhaps due to our strength of numbers. And i've touched upon that at various times... the quality of kids coming thru Western schools, the 'population control' programs being introduced to muslim lands, the poverty in the Muslim world..... [quote]That they could have gone to the root of where all the policies are made that killed the Muslims and others as well, but they didn't.[/quote] I don't mean to be harsh, but this is starting to sound like the fairytales of people who believe we'll get a muslim president into office. [quote]It's all about trying Kashif, all about trying and learning from your mistakes. I am sure you have heard of choosing the better of two goods and choosing the lesser of two evils.[/quote] What are the benefits in voting where the choice is between a person who comes from a family who believe that they are doing God's duty in wiping out Muslim children, and another who is influenced by the yahood? Kashif Wa Salaam [bhaloo. Point #2? Agreed.]

Re: voters?
tree
09/28/00 at 12:53:43
Asalaamu alaikum I wouldn't vote for either Bush nor Gore, but it's something I've been thinking about recently regarding who to vote for in Britain.  So who to vote for?  What do we need to consider in terms of Islam and the position of Muslims in this country, and who will benefit us? Kashif, you said: [quote] If memory serves me correct, weren't we crying for ourselves and our brethren at the time of the last election? and the one before that too? [/quote] Of course we were crying, but we will continue to do so while living in a non-Muslim country.  Even Muslims in "Muslim" countries are crying for their brethren.  So what can we do while living in this country to improve our situation?   Has our situation not changed for the better since 20 years ago?  I'm not saying i know if it has or not, but surely think aren't as bleak as they seem. (or are they?) And yes, Muslims may not yet be more organised than before, but for me, the fact that more youths are beginnning to realise their identity as Muslims, and are *trying* to make the non-Muslims understand their ways, is more encouraging than previously where Muslims were not Muslims but Pakistanis.  Can these Muslims not make changes, in their non-Muslim countries, for the better over the next 20 years? anyway, just this one issue of voting opens up a whole can of worms regarding Muslim rights, Muslim influence, identity, accountability, etc etc. I'm just glad I won't be in the country when the next general election comes about (if it's in April 2001 that is).   Actually, do you think the situation in the US is very different from the UK?  Being much smaller than the US, do we have a stronger voice?  Sometimes i wonder... salaam tree

Re: voters?
Saleema
10/01/00 at 03:07:11
Assalamoalykum, _______________________________________________ memory serves me correct, weren't we crying for ourselves and our brethren at the time of the last election? and the one before that too? _________________________________________________ Yes we were crying, but what are you trying to prove? That we will be crying for eternity? That we can't do anything about it and so we should give up all hope? Should we stop trying? Should we stop struggling and throw up our hands in the air and say, "That's it! There's nothing I can do."  What is your solution(s) Kashif? I am not talking about money. That only saves a life for it to live in a miserable condition. We want something better for those people like that out there. We want something better for their future generations, we don't want to see their future generations to be miserable like that. Every time you fall, you pick yourself up. From every hurt, every defeat, you learn something. You learn from your mistakes. And you should always dream big, it is the people who dream big that succeed. ________________________________________________ in that time, the sahwa has suffered setbacks here, and more seriously, been repressed in our home countries; the media blitz villifying Islam has continued unabated... what makes you think that the situation is going to be different come the next election and the one after that? _________________________________________________ A Muslim doesn't despair, he trusts in Allah. Don't you know that Allah has promised to take care of this religion? He is the guardian of it and we are His trustees on this earth. Who said anything about the situation being different for the Muslims by the next election? But, we are going to build from that. We are laying the foundation, so by some time in the future, things *will* be different for the Muslims. In reality, things happen gradually, we are not expecting magic results by the next presidential inauguration! We don't have our heads stuck in the clouds, trust me. I am going to ask you again. Should we not do anything? Giving monetary support is good, but its not enough. In fact its never enough, never will be. Then we have the options of protests. They hardly work, and very few Muslim participate anyway. We can have Muslims and non-Muslims lobbying the government. We do that. And that works to some degree. What we are missing is the voting power. The power is in our hands and all we need to do is close our fingers around it and hold on it and use it wisely. We need to give the government the message that we can control at least somewhat whether they get elected to office or not. Monetary help, protests, lobbying, Dawah, and participating in the democratic process will all help us in the long run to achieve our goals. ________________________________________________ you think that the Muslims are more organized than before, lets pick up this thread in two months time on the night before Ramadan and discuss Muslim unity and organisation. _________________________________________________ Why is that you want such fast results? There was a time when we *didn't* have ISNA, ICNA, there was a time when we *didn't* have CAIR, we didn't have MYNA, MSA, AMA. There was a time in this country when we didn't have masjids. There was a time in this country when we didn't have a network of Masjids operating around a main Masjid. There was a time in the United States that a judge could take away a woman's children from her just because she converted to Islam and called Islam in front of many people a "heathen" religion. So, you see, things have changed. And they are changing. Why always look at the negative side only? We should have trust in Allah and use the opportunities that He has provided us with for the betterment of the Ummah. I am not saying that we are very well organized, but we are organized and inshallah there will come a time when we will be among the very best organized communities. And you know why I believe in this? Because of Allah's promise that Islam will see two Golden Ages. Allah said in the Qur'an that a time will come that the Muslim Ummah will see disgrace. That time is now and we have seen disgrace over the past few centuries. The Golden Age of Islam's decline was gradual, it didn't collapse over night. And so will be the rise of it again as predicted by the Qur'an. I have hope, because Allah gives me that hope. _________________________________________________ e a look at the 'Islamicness' of the muslim kids coming thru the public schools - is that who you're going to rely on to make the "right" choice in coming years? Its amongst these very muslims who you're relying on for future support that we're seeing deviations like "muslim gays" appearing. __________________________________________________ Kashif, honestly, I didn't know you were that pessimistic. Allah says that there are always the few who spread Islam, who follow what He says to follow. So, you know what? Islam is going to be carried on the shoulders of those few who come out these same public school system that produce the bad kids. Have you heard of the hadith where the sahabi made the prayer to Allah to make him of the "few?" We are relying on the support of the "few" to carry the message of Islam to the next generation, we are relying the "few" to carry Peace to suffering people. ________________________________________________ future is in the Hands of Allah and nothing happens except by His Permission, azza wa jall, _________________________________________________ Lol. I know that Kashif. I know that the future is in the hands of Allah. Who's disputing that? I don't see why you even brought this up? If you mean by this that I shouldn't be optimistic about the future because only Allah knows. Then you shouldn't be pessimistic about the future because only Allah knows what is in the future and He has all control over it. We can ask Allah to make the future good for us and inshallah Allah gives when you ask. Allah doesn't want us to lead miserable lives. If we do good and forbid evil, He will help us inshallah. __________________________________________________ t i don't see any indication at all that we'll be an influential group in 20 years time, except perhaps due to our strength of numbers. And i've touched upon that at various times... the quality of kids coming thru Western schools, the 'population control' programs being introduced to muslim lands, the poverty in the Muslim world..... ______________________________________________ Numbers? Strength in numbers? Please! That is half of the solution. If, as you say, most of the kids coming out of western schools are bad and we can't rely on them for the future of Islam, then the strength in numbers is not a solution that can stand by itself. ________________________________________________ on't mean to be harsh, but this is starting to sound like the fairytales of people who believe we'll get a muslim president into office. ________________________________________________ Lol. Hoping for the best sounds like a fairytale to you? No, I *don't* think we will be able to get a Muslim in the office here. First, a black non-Muslim will have to enter the office, then a Hispanic non-Muslim, then a women, and maybe then in a few centuries a Muslim can hope for such a postion. _______________________________________________ t are the benefits in voting where the choice is between a person who comes from a family who believe that they are doing God's duty in wiping out Muslim children, and another who is influenced by the yahood? ________________________________________________ What are the benefits? The benefits are many. If Muslims start to vote, and alhamdullilah they are starting to realize the benefits of it and are participating more and more, they can control the politicians. Combined with all the other things that I listed above, Islam has a very bright future in the United States and in the world. We are fighting a uphill battle and we will be rewarded for it inshallah. When the secret evidence bill was being debated in Congress, and if we Muslims had been strong in voting numbers, then we might have been able to prevent it from being signed by putting pressure on our congressmen. Why the hell are we living in these western countries? Why the heck are we enjoying protection and benefits from a Kaffir government, while our brothers and sistersare being killed by these same governments? Why are we complaining about the anti-muslim laws that they pass and yet we don't want to go out there and vote and put pressure on them to change their ways? Tell me, please. Lol--with bitterness at the irony of this: *Our* tax dollars, mine and yours Kashif, are being used to bomb Iraq, to support Israel, and what not. What, you think we are not going to be questioned about that? Lol. Shouldn't we do something about it? By voting out the jerks who make these policies and telling the others that we don't care if they like us or not, we control whether they get into that office and get so much money that they can roll around in it? If they want that power, if they want those dollars, they are going to have to do what we say. Again, I would like to point out, that we will *gradually* reach that point. ________________________________________ [haloo. Point #2? Agreed.] __________________________________________ But wait-- I thought you just said that it would be haram for us to vote for someone who supports the yahood and for someone who thinks it's God's work to bomb Iraqi children. Going by that criteria, no one should vote in the Muslim countries also because those leaders aren't any good either. Look at what happens inside those countries and the leaders do nothing, they pretend that they are working hard for the people, but really they are working for the money. And so many of the Muslim counties could do a lot to pressure the US to life the sanctions on Iraq but they don't care. Not doing anything to help oppressed people is just as bad as throwing bombs at them. Wassalam, Saleema

Re: voters?
Kashif
10/01/00 at 16:15:41
assalaamu alaikum Saleema, I have no solution. Had a solution been apparent to me, i'm sure it'd be in the open already. Before you get to that stage where muslims are coming to the polling booths, have they agreed on a common understanding (i.e. democractic elections are not from Islam, yet due to necessity we are participating, and even then to achieve a specific goal)? Or are muslims being sent to vote just for the sake of it: just go there and vote for who you think is best? But lets agree to vote. Is there a single city today in which all the muslims will vote for one candidate? or half the muslime even? or perhaps all the muslims local to 10 masajid? I'd like to know. There is a stage that the muslims need to be educated to before you start calling them to participate in elections. If muslims aren't clear on WHAT Islam is, then one of the dangerous conclusions is that by encouraging them to vote, without having established some type of Islamic-foundation in them, you legitimise participation in a political system which is alien to Islam. And isn't it clear that this 'system' doesn't like us? What happened in Algeria when the Islamic Party won the elections? Had the national army not come into remove the party from power, the French said that THEY would have sent their army to achieve the same end. And what about more recently the case of Erbakan in Turkey? In light of that, do you think that the real movers and shakers of American politics are going to sit by and watch Muslims gain increasing influence? There are simply too many factors working against Islam & Muslims in the West. We will have to go back to our own lands, rectify the situation there and then come out.. not the other way round. In the meantime, the effective use of politics to safeguard our rights in this society is a necessity. And you can't exactly blame me for being a pessimist when the situation is so bleak. If we even had some decent sort of leadership then that would make your argument more palatable, but do we? I'm only going to give one example: the secretary general of one muslim organisation (and you all know of this org) gave a khutba 2 weeks ago having just come from a meeting with the President, encouraging the muslims to vote. He spoke about some of the problems that the muslims face today, and then he pumped up the fact that America was such a GREAT democracy - and that we can really get a muslim into office (see above) and then he had the audacity to say that when a muslim is born, the adhaan should be said in one ear, and the American constitution in the other... Is this the type of leadership that is following the example of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam? And where will it lead us? Kashif Wa Salaam I think its just gonna get uglier.....

Re: voters?
nadeem
10/05/00 at 11:51:31
Salaam. Are we allowed to vote for man-made law at all?! I understand that we need to change the system and a very good efective way is through the kufr political process, but what is the ahkam on the matter? In islam there is an usooli principle: every action requires evidence. Not reasons, or out of nessecity , or practicability, but daleel is needed inshallah. wassalaam

Re: voters?
Arsalan
10/05/00 at 15:31:34
Assalamu alaikum, Nadim, this might help: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=374]To Vote or Not to Vote - Jamal Badawi[/url]

Re: voters?
chachi
10/06/00 at 19:53:15
My view is vote on local issues becaue you are voting for a specific issue and can turn round and say the muslims support this ..eg helping the homeless etc creating a nature reserve etc that sort of thing, DON'T vote for presidents,Consuls and Senators Because they will do acts that you will not even know about under your authority , whereas you can grab your local councillor at a public meeting etc and ask him why he voted for a certain thing. Secondly and more crucially the senators etc NEED large amounts of cash because they need MORE votes , so they need media airtime, thus they are far more willing to sell out. Until the muslims establish their own large scale middle class don't vote on national issues. Thirdly the basis of islam is qu'ran and sunna, the basis of islamic society is Dawah, Congregation and Madrassah...why do you think the american elite created Harvard etc? why is there a Cambridge and Oxford in the UK?

Re: voters?
Saleema
10/07/00 at 00:50:38
Assalamoalykum, Muslims *already* do those things on the local level. The point is that we should try to make a difference on a larger scale. Why can't we do Dawah, vote,etc, etc.? why does it have to be pick and choose!????????!!!! Geez! Wassalam

Re: voters?
assing
10/07/00 at 10:58:08
As salaamaulykum, this is just an e-mail i recieved which may be able to shed some light on the issue at hand; Ya Jama'ah, I wanted to pass this to you because this is an excellent mini article.  Many of us are asked to vote blah blah blah and we end up no where really.  Br Salim Morgan hit a grand slam with this article, this is how a Muslim can be active in the U.S. elections... As Ali al-Timimi said last night, if we all go vote and some of the Muslims vote for this guy and some vote for that guy then what did we do?  Rather the article below describes the way it should be... Alhamdulilah for rational brothers and sisters (Not to say others are not being rational) ___________________________ As-salaamu alaikum: Once you asked what my suggestion was for "participation" in the U.S. elections.  I had stated some of the following: - voting should ONLY be undertaken when there is some clear benefit (maslaha) for Islam and Muslims - the above should be judged by scholars knowledgeable of both Islam and world affairs - Muslims should cast united votes, anything other than this will be more harmful than no voting at all and will only make Muslims must one more plaything for the controllers of information On the level of national politics, I would suggest the following: 1. Come up with a set of minimum required platform planks for Muslim support.  Something along the lines of the following: - Stop all aid to Israel as long as they continue to disobey U.N. resolutions - Recognize the Taliban government - Take Sudan and Afghanistan off the "terrorist" list - Stop secret evidence - Allow shool vouchers - Facilitate Muslim plural marriages - Facilitate Muslims resolving marital issues according to the Shari'a and allow pre-nuptial contracts which stipulate settling of all disputes (including child custody) via binding arbitration on that basis - Stop embargoes against Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Libya, Cuba and all others which harm men, women and children.  (This is the "weapon" used AGAINST Allah's Messenger (sas) and the Muslims by Quraish and has no place among civilized people.) etc., etc. of couse this list would grow and shrink and change over time. THEN.... Demand of all Muslims that we cooperate to do the following: - ALWAYS vote - NEVER vote for anyone who does not support the entire Muslim platform, even if that means never voting for a "winner" - Write in names (preferable if we all agree on a single name to write in) if none of the official candidates will agree to support the Muslim platform (which of course is expected). - All this must be analayzed and determined by the most knowledgeable scholars available.  If we are going to have "Muslims" voting for a non-believer like Farrakhan, modernists like Maher Hathout or people of bid'a and deviant aqidah like W.D. Muhammad, showing our division and our confusion about our own religion in front of our enemy, then it is far preferable to forget the whole thing. If we could present a united front like this, then we might actually be able to influence policy.  If we can't, then we should stay VERY FAR away from this whole scene as there is no benefit for Islam or Muslims and only very, very great harm. And Allah Most High knows best. Comments welcome.                                            -- Salim Morgan
NS

Re: voters?
chachi
10/08/00 at 19:45:04
In regard to the above if the majority of muslims did decide to vote for a single candidate on the basis of a opinion by islamic scholars then yes i would vote even if i had reservations because i would not want to break Jamaat with the rest of the community
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