Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| things that make you go hmmmm |
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| se7en |
| 09/29/00 at 15:57:59 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, Khathija and I had an interesting discussion today. The question was asked: Do you think your life would have been easier if you were a guy? And for guys, do you think your life would have been easier if you were female? (Just a side note: This isn't a question of who has it easier according to Islamic law. It's just opinion, considering your own life and your own problems.) What do y'all think? |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/29/00 at 18:24:56 |
| slm I think if I was a girl it would be so much harder. Wearing hijab I would imagine would be a challenge, considering its California here and that's a rare thing here. Secondly, men are idiots (of course I'm not referring to the brothers on this message board who are respectable) always hitting on women in this country, staring at them and checking them out and what not. Dorks. Of course going through emotional times and dealing with pressure I imagine would be much more difficult as a female. Who's next? |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Sara |
| 09/29/00 at 19:56:56 |
| Assalam, I think it would be easier to be a guy,because they got it a lot more easier than girls. They don't have to give births and have all these womenly problems.They don't waste money on hair and makeup products. I don't know,that's my opinion. |
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| dhikr |
| 09/29/00 at 22:31:07 |
| assalaamualaikum warahmatullahiwabarakatuh se7en u know how i feel abt this, i think being a guy is a whole lot easier, not puttin them down becuz of it, i guess its just many of the things we have to deal with , guys dont make it a big deal, but maybe its just harder to be a girl cuz girls make it that way? i dunno , but s/times i wish i were a guy, i think that alotta the reason i think guys have it easier is cuz girls have to deal with guys, not sayin that all guys suck, well .. we'll not get into that, but anyways, i think that many times girls are more emotional abt things which make little things hard, or not ? but i have seen that guys are able to deal with situations better, maybe becuz sometimes they dont care, or they just dont make a big deal of everything, another thing that i hate so much is the how there are parents out there that treat the daughter different than the son, which alotta times makes it easier to be a guy, ok ill shut up,i think im just blabbing now? and se7en, where was i during this conversation ? salaaam razia |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/29/00 at 23:30:39 |
| slm Sister Razia I am not sure I understand what you mean by girls have to deal with guys? ??? They can avoid them can't they? Believe me guys have it very difficult, even though I basically dissed my gender. I'm allowed to, I'm a guy. In fact why don't you sisters try and come up with a list of 10 things why it is difficult to be a guy. To give the Albany sisters, "the original three", some incentive, if you come up with a list (it has to make sense), I won't make any cow jokes for a month. :( If you can't come up with a list of 10 (that makes sense), then you will have to post cow jokes about Albany in the Albany forum for a whole month, at least one a day. You can't have any outside help from other people, including your parents or Sheikh Mokthar. The judges of this list will be sisters Kathy, Widad, Saleema, and brothers, Kashif, Asim, and Arsalan. In the event of a tie, Lightningatnite (thunder by day) will decide the tie breaker. Let the competition begin. You have till the end of this weekend, monday evening at the latest. Ok? |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| se7en |
| 09/29/00 at 23:40:24 |
| wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, You serious? Please son, you're talking about the ORIGINAL THREE here, and the sisters crew to back us up. We can bust this out in five minutes flat. You really wanna take us on? And define "has to make sense". :) (and hey, is this a bet? cuz that's like.. unhalaal like.) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Sara |
| 09/29/00 at 23:40:35 |
| Assalam, I know exactly what you mean sis razia! I have 2 older brothers and they can do basically n-e-thing.Examples: I had to wait til I was 17 to get both my permit and drivers lisense.My brothers got theirpermet at 15 and their lisense at 16. My brothers(when they use to live at home) got to have their american friends over. Me and my sisters can only have our muslims friends(girls of course over) Let me tell you guys something,I live in a small-WHITE-REDNECK-town. And I'm only friends with 3 muslim girls. Plus my parents make me and my sisters come in before dark. And when my brothers were my age,they didn't have a curfew. Man, I can go on and on how my brothers have it easier. WHEW!!!! |
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| lightningatnite |
| 09/30/00 at 00:46:26 |
| asalamalaikum, Peace be with you :) "ar-rijaal qawammun alan nisaa." - al-baqarah, ayah 228 Do you know what this means? This doesn't mean that men are over women. It means that I have to look out for Jannah and Se7en, and this is a Divine command that I will be held accountable for when I stand before Allah. This means that brothers hold ultimate responsibility for all the screwed up crap in our society. This means that everytime you see a hungry person, oppression, injustice, unbelief, erosion of morality, basically the direct responsibility for the maintaining and spreading of Islam lies upon brothers. It means that accountability for this falls on the brothers. This doesn't mean that sisters shouldn't maintain and spread Islam in a society at large, just that they're not held responsible for it on the Day of Judgement. What I mean is that a womans responsibility is equal to a mans, but hers is localized and his is generalized. dhikr, why do you look at all the benefit of being a guy and forget all the responsibilities that come with it too? You can't have the bebzi and drink it too. Sure there are props that come with being the driver, but you also get the tickets and you better be heading in the right direction (and if you're not I guarantee you'll be nagged about it...haha j/k :) Did you ever wonder why it seems like there aren't that many very religious brothers out there? That's because it's damn hard to be a good Muslim male in the United States! You can think whatever you want, but you don't know what it's like to be a brother unless you are a brother. This is just my honest opinion. I'm sure sisters have things that they got to go through too. So far this thread has been a good outlet for sisters to talk about what they've experienced, but I don't think it's been objective about looking at this issue. Obviously the points made are valid, but that doesn't mean that brothers don't have their share of problems too. Do you think freedom makes things easier for you? The fact that I can walk into a crowded room and not have anyone know I am a Muslim doesn't make things any easier for me. It makes things a whole lot harder. I think I already made this point, but I need to emphasize it, because it is so critical, and I don't think that we as Muslims have realized what this is doing to the next generation. Of the seven people who will be shaded on the Day of Judgement, one will be a man who resisted the temptation of a woman. When asked about whether a woman who resisted the temptation of a man will have this same shade, Sheikh Abdullah al-Kadi said, "she will have reward, but I cannot say she will have shade." This shows us how hard yet important it is for a brother to keep his modesty. Though a sister should also, I think she doesn't face the same hardship a brother does. My experience tells me that 95% of the brothers no longer practice Islam because of this weakness. And Allah knows best. Please forgive me for offending you (because I'm sure I have :) Ok, I don't want to argue, I just want to discuss this thing. Hook me up with some feedback :) |
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| Arsalan |
| 09/30/00 at 01:44:33 |
| Simply an excellent post lightningatnite! I'm speechless! Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/30/00 at 02:12:26 |
| slm Lightningatnite tells it like it is. :) Alhumdullilah that is exactly one of many points to consider, to seriously consider. Se7en the challenge has been issued, you and your crew think you can meet the challenge in 5 minutes? Ok, you have till Sunday evening then. ;) When I say it has to make sense, I mean they have to be real answers, not some answer like, "oh guys have to play sports". yadig? That's why I picked those judges, they'll make it fair and rule out any bogus answers. I picked an even number of women and men so its totally fair. I'll understand if the "original three" are too chicken to meet the challenge. Insha'Allah this exercise will make you all reflect on just how difficult it is being a man. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| dhikr |
| 09/30/00 at 10:52:11 |
| WE'RE ONNNNNNNNNNNNNN!" ;) hehe (maybe no one should post anymore on why its difficult to be a guy so that we come up with our own ideas?) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| bhaloo |
| 09/30/00 at 11:57:02 |
| slm I agree. Everyone save your answers till after the "original three" attempt the challenge. |
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| Arsalan |
| 09/30/00 at 13:20:53 |
| MashaAllah, I see that the original three (or two at least) are getting enthusiastic about the competition :) I wish I had seen the same enthusiasm about the Qur'an competition from everyone though :( You still got time!! Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Anonymous |
| 09/30/00 at 13:28:57 |
| salaam The previous post said [quote] Do you think freedom makes things easier for you? The fact that I can walk into a crowded room and not have anyone know I am a Muslim doesn't make things any easier for me. It makes things a whole lot harder. [/quote] What exactly did you mean by that?? If you want people to know you're Muslim, then for starters look and dress like one. salaam |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Kathy |
| 09/30/00 at 18:55:07 |
| slm How is a Muslim man supposed to dress? What is your criteria?- and please no cultural influences. Give me Hadith to back your statement up. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Anonymous |
| 09/30/00 at 22:29:58 |
| Salaam, well first of all it has nothing to do with "my criteria". It has to do with the sunnah of our holy Prophet salaam. How do one look like a muslim well, for a male for starters.. Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree and Saheeh Muslim: From Ibn Umar Radhi Allaahu 'anhu, who said : The Messenger of Allaah Salla Llaahu 'alayhi wa Sallam, said : "Be different from the Mushrikeen, trim your moustache and grow your beards". The Islamic Ruling Concerning Beards Growing the beard is a wajib (mandatory) for all males who are capable of doing so. This has ample evidence in the Sunnah (as will be shown below) and is the unanimous opinion of the ulamaa of Islam. One should not be misled by the neglect to this sunnah by a few contemporary shaykhs, and by their providing shaky fatwas to support their action. Whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it. And whatsoever he prohibits you leave it (Soorah al-Hashr : 59:7) As for the dressing: Muslim men are required to be dressed Islamically at all times because they are Muslim at all time. A Muslim should not behave and act sometimes like a Muslim and sometimes like a non-Muslim. THe demand of Imaan (belief) is that the Muslim be identified from a distance from his outward appearance and dress. It should be possible for any stranger (i.e. Muslim) to be able to greet another wheter they be strangers. In conclusion, if you are male and want to be known as a "Muslim", you can start by growing a beard (a fist lenght), and dress Islamically. You can wear a Kurtha or Thawb. salaam |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/01/00 at 01:45:51 |
| Salam :) Hmm, Anonymous, I apologize for being unclear. I am a Muslim, and I believe I dress appropriately, I have a beard, and I even wear a kufi and people still don't know I'm a Muslim! They usually ask me "Where are you from?" instead of realizing I'm a Muslim. I would guess that sisters are generally more easily recognized. I mean, I've seen American women wearing kufis!..so its a trendy thing... Sorry dhikr and bhaloo for turning your friendly competition into a serious discussion. I for one am eager to see what the Terrible Triumvirat..uh I mean the "Orginal Three" can come up with :) Sister Nazia, I love your Rumi quote...have you read Barks' "The Essential Rumi" ? |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Kathy |
| 10/01/00 at 10:02:20 |
| slm. Isn't wearing a Kurtha or Thwab, a cultural dress? |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| widad |
| 10/01/00 at 12:53:02 |
| slm Nicely put "lightningatnight",jazakallahu khayran. If all Muslim men would know and do all that the word 'qiwama' means we would yet have the best ummah. |
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| se7en |
| 10/02/00 at 00:45:17 |
In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate Ten Difficulties Faced by the Muslim Brother by jannah, khathija, dhikr, kiwi25, insaaf & se7en 10. [i] Brothers are required to participate in combative jihad. [/i] When a woman asked Rasulullah, peace be upon him, what a sister should do in order to attain the same reward, he told her to perform hajj. There is also a hadeeth which states that a woman who cares for her children and family is in the same rank as a mujahida. Brothers on the other hand must participate in physical combative jihad if (when) the need arises. 9. [i] Brothers must provide for their own. [/i] A brother must maintain and financially support his family. His income goes first to the needs of his wife and children, while a woman who earns an income can use her wealth however she chooses. 8. [i] The brother is expected to approach the sister if interested in marriage. [/i] Though a sister may approach a brother if interested, it's tradition (and could have something to do with the male ego) that he approach the sister. The brother therefore has to deal with confusion, anxiety and perhaps the rejection of his proposal. 7. [i] Brothers have an obligation to attend salatul jummah. [/i] While it is good for a sister to attend, she is not required to do so. 6. [i] A father will never have the same bond a mother has with their children. [/i] A mothers natural impulse to nurture, have patience, sacrifice, show mercy, and show love and affection to her children far outweighs that of a mans. Maybe it has to do with this child once being a part of her, within her, and that type of relationship is not one that can be imitated in its degree of intensity, intimacy and closeness. Or maybe it's just cuz the mom is the one who wakes up to feed em eighteen times a night. 5. [i] Brothers are required to pray at all times. [/i] A sister due to...womenly issues does not pray during a certain time each month nor is she required to make up these prayers. A brother however never encounters a situation like that. Also brothers fast all the days of Ramadhan, while the majority of sisters do not fast all 29/30 days continuously. 4. [i] The degree. [/i] As br. lightningatnite so eloquently put it, brothers are 'ultimately responsible for all the crap that goes on in this society'. Accountability for Islam's development or erosion in the society at large lies on the brothers. 3. [i] Dressing in a Muslim manner. [/i] For a Muslim sister, no matter what she wears, if she covers her awrah, she is identifiable as a Muslim. For a Muslim brother however, even if he does cover his awrah, he is still not easily identifiable as a Muslim. So maintaining the beard and the actual dress a Muslim brother wears poses a challenge. 2. [i] Temptation. [/i] Women are naturally attracted to men, and men are naturally attracted to women. Controlling these desires and controlling the gaze are a challenge all Muslims, especially Muslim brothers livin in the society we do, confront head on in a continous battle. The conduct of a Muslim brother, especially in the interaction between men and women is also difficult. Practicing the beautiful aspects of adab and hayaa between the two genders also seems difficult for many brothers. 1. [i] Brother can't go to sisters parties. [/i] "Man, what do you girls do at those things anyway?" Heheh, just kidding. How about: a Muslim brother can't wear silk or gold. And Allah, the Merciful, knows best. :) Now yes, we do understand why you asked (challenged) us to do this. You feel like we don't have an appreciation for the challenges a Muslim brother faces. We get you. But it's interesting to note that when we actually asked brothers about difficulties they face, other than providing for the family ("we work forty hours a week so you can go the one-day sale at macy's!) we got a lot of blank stares and long silences. We also came up with a list of about 25 reasons why Muslim brother's got it easy. Like the fact that you do not need a mahram when you travel. Or that if you're interested in someone you can approach them, while if you were a sister you'd have to play games hinting at your interest in order not to mess with the male ego. Or that you're on the good side of the double standard a lot of Muslim parents have about letting their children out of the house. Or no matter how Muslim you look walking down the street, you'll *never* have to deal with disgusting, perverted garbage any Muslim woman with hijab knows so well. And so on. But see, the truth is, it's *damn* hard to be a Muslim, whether you're male or female. We're just different creatures with different strengths and different weaknesses. And because of that we face different challenges, difficulties, and tests. Yet we complement each other and we are garments for one another, and we should help each other in this journey called life. Get me? :) Now, what we'd like to see is for the brothers to come up with a list of ten reasons why it is difficult to be a Muslim sister. Ya got three days. Game? |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/01/00 at 21:03:06 |
| slm Not bad, but you had Jannah, Kiwi and Insaaf help you (didn't know the latter 2 were Albanians). But I guess its ok. Ok, I guess no cow jokes from me for a month, unless the judges don't like the list you girls came up with, but I doubt that. So what's the incentive for the brothers to participate in this competition? Can you give us 5 days for the competition? All of us brothers don't live in the same area like you Albanyians, so it will take us a little while to make sure our answers agree. Also insha'Allah we'll address some of the other points you mentioned. So which brothers want to participate in this endeavor? I need about 5 brothers, Lightning? Kashif? Arsalan? Asim? Anyone? ;) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/01/00 at 21:47:59 |
| Salam, Whoa! ok, now that was a decent list jannah, khathija, dhikr, kiwi25, insaaf & se7en...well not bad for a commitee ;) I must say I can't blame you for missing some things...how can mere lambs understand the life of lions anyway :) Hey bhaloo, I'm definitely up for the challenge. But first, can you settle this argument between me and se7en, since you are one of the smartest people on the planet(wink, wink) :)...I overheard this song by Kajol I like on khathija's marriage cd(why khathija has a marriage cd is whole other issue) and I need to know, do the actresses really sing those songs? My fate lies in your hands... |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/01/00 at 21:31:02 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote] But see, the truth is, it's *damn* hard to be a Muslim, whether you're male or female. We're just different creatures with different strengths and different weaknesses. And because of that we face different challenges, difficulties, and tests. Yet we complement each other and we are garments for one another, and we should help each other in this journey called life. Get me? :) [/quote] That, my friends, is the bottom line! (or the bottom lineS!) Well put se7en. About your "Ten Difficulties ... " list, those are certainly 10 of them. I don't think you completely appreciate some of them as being really [i]difficult[/i] things, but I don't expect you to since you don't live through them. For example, it's true that both men and women are attracted to each other, but considering the natural forwardness and boldness of males (as contrasted with the natural shyness and restraint of the female) and the fact that men are indeed more attracted to women than women are attracted to men, it is extremely difficult for us to keep ourselves straight - especially in a society like this where every female's sole purpose in life, seemingly, is to get the guys' attention!!! For some reason, I just can't swallow it if someone tells me that a Muslim sister is attracted to a man jogging down the street with no shirt equally as a Muslim brother is to a girl jogging on the street in a bikini! Wallahu a'lam. Arshad, email me your list, and I'll see if I can add to it or make any changes. Wassalamu alaikum. P.S. Lightningatnite, *lol*, if you're talking about Indian songs, the answer is NO. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Saleema |
| 10/01/00 at 22:24:01 |
| Salam, I think the list is pretty good. Lightningatnite---One of the reasons not to watch to Indian movies is because the actres on there are just lip singing. I hate indian movies. My Gosh, do I hate them! You know what's really stupid? That these acters come to the US for concerts and they dance on the stage and lip sing. Who the he** would want to see a bunch of idiots who can't act LIP SING? Geez, if you want to go to a concert, go to Jewl's con cert or something. At least she actually *sings!* Wassalam |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| dhikr |
| 10/01/00 at 22:32:45 |
| lightning at nite, the actresses dont sing the song, hhehe and i also heard a little somthing abt u wanting to keep that marriage songs cd now? wats all this abt huh? i kno it cant be true, can it? (but one thing u shud keep in mind, kajol has a unibrow in real life) watch out big bro:) bhaloo, im not an evil, cold and harsh person, reely im not hehe:) alhtough alotta times i end up sounding like one. and i do respect brothers very much, and se7en, girl, i love u soooo much:) be good hun salaam |
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| Asim |
| 10/02/00 at 00:30:42 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, I had not been following this thread and I just noticed I had been named a judge, hmmm. Okay, I have to agree with the other brothers, Jannah et al.’s list is pretty accurate. However (as always :)), I still believe the sisters cannot understand the magnitude of the difficulties brothers go through. Arsalan gave a good example. Another point is that some of the brothers' challenges (e.g. 9 and 4) are of the responsibility type. These are pretty heavy one must admit and not like the difficulty of being stared at while wearing hijab (ok, I don’t know how this feels :)). Point 2 mentions the temptation part which brothers face living in this society, and Arsalan expanded on it. Notice that brothers are put into a fix by difficulties number 8, 9 and 4 when they want to avoid temptation and get married. So overall, this becomes real messy. And I will repeat the following again. It sums up the whole issue very beautifully. But see, the truth is, it's *damn* hard to be a Muslim, whether you're male or female. We're just different creatures with different strengths and different weaknesses. And because of that we face different challenges, difficulties, and tests. Yet we complement each other and we are garments for one another, and we should help each other in this journey called life. Arshad, I’m in. And yes, we guys will need more time, we not good with words :) Wasalaam. |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/02/00 at 00:32:49 |
| slm Lightning, I hate to break it to you but they lip synch in the movies. Sorry bro. I haven't seen a full movie in 5 or 6 years. :) Ok, cool, me, Lightining and Arsalan so far, I'll start a little maillist for us. What's this about Kajol and a marriage CD? Did she become Muslim? |
| For Sister Nazia |
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| AbuKhaled |
| 10/02/00 at 14:50:30 |
| Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Dear Sister Nazia, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. "Clearly all sunnah is not fard, else it would not be called sunnah." The word Sunnah has a number of different meanings, dependent on context. You are confusing the meaning of sunnah as a recommended action (i.e. mandoub) with the lexical meaning, which is a path/way. So when we talk of the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) we mean his way/path. But when we say it is sunnah to use the siwak before making wudu, we mean it in the technical sense of fiqh, where it means mandoub. "I myself do not know the ruling on the beard issue, I was just making a general observation. Plus, I thought wajib meant "highly recommended"? I could be wrong." Wajib means obligatory, just like fard. The two words are used synonymously, except in the Hanafi madhab [school of thought], wherein a technical difference was made regarding the daleel [evidence] upon which the hukm of obligation is built. In this madhab, if the daleel is qat'i [definite/conclusive] then the hukm is considered fard. If the daleel is thanni [indefinite/inconclusive] then the hukm is considered as wajib. However, for practical purposes there is no difference, for commission of the act results in reward whilst omission results in sin. An example of wajib is the witr salah. The daleel is thanni, wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Perhaps you were thinking of the concept of *sunnah mu'akkadah,* which is again a term used in the Hanafi madhab, and basically means an emphatic sunnah, or a strongly recommended sunnah, i.e. an action which the Prophet (saw) did without fail, except maybe once, just to show the Ummah that it was not an obligation, wallahu a'lam. Illustrating this would be the example of the two Sunnah rakats prayed before the Fajr obligatory salat. Wallahu a'lam. I hope this clarifies. Abu Khaled |
| Aql & The Qadr of Allah ta'ala |
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| AbuKhaled |
| 10/02/00 at 14:55:33 |
| Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Dear Brothers and Sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. Allahu ta'ala a'lam, may Allah (swt) remove my ignorance if I am wrong, but I think this thread is trangressing the bounds of Shar'iah, which is a serious matter. Judgements of *difficulty/ease* should never be made with respect to the hukm of Allah ta'ala, for this is to use ones aql [mind] to judge His (awj) rule, which clearly, is shirk. It is one thing to say "I find isha hard to pray," for this is not a judgement upon the hukm, but about oneself and ones weakness. Whereas to say (and this is a made up example) "not having to travel with a mahrem for brothers is an ease" is to suggest that one deems ones aql a source for judging that which is easy/difficult. This was exactly what the Mu'atazilah did. Takleef [responsibility] is not to be assessed according to the mind of the abd' of Allah ta'ala, ever, wal iyadhubillah. The list provided about brothers is a generalisation about ease/hardship constructed by applying our own rational precepts about ease/difficulty. This is not the way. In Islam, such concepts are defined by the Shar'iah, not according to the aql. To compare the roles of the genders is to assume equality, when the only equality is with respect to the law, not to gender. So it is entirely futile to amass a list of things brothers have to do or not do and compare them to what sisters have to do or not do, and then pass judgement on who has it easier or tougher. Who are we to pass such a judgement? It is Al-Shaari' who legislated these roles, so is it other than questioning His (awj) Qadr that such a discussion springs from, or can lead to? There is no way to compare the respective roles of brothers and sisters, and Islam does not predicate hardship and ease based on gender comparisons. It is a *completely* individualistic phenomenon. For instance, even when two brothers fight jihad, both may achieve exactly the same result outwardly, yet what it took inwardly may be worlds apart. It is no different with the ahkam which govern the lives of each gender and are exclusive to that gender. There is no way to compare, except by aql, and such a use of the aql is outlawed in Islam. For what is it tantamount to? Think about it please. This is not a game, there are implications of such an exercise. Even if was not about ease with respect to Islamic Law, but your own opinions, stop and think exactly what you are opining about, and whether such opining is actually halal. To ask "what if," is it not to toss the Qadr of Allah (awj) up in the air for speculation, which begs the questions: what happened to submitting to it? Is judgement of it equivocal to submission to it? The Ulema discussed all these things, ease, difficulty, hardship, what is tolerable, what is not, etc. Have we even consulted them before embarking on such a dangerous employment of our intellects? This is one of the dangers of such Boards, that there is no one of authority to regulate the discussions when we wish to pontificate, and so it comes down to self-regulation, which is far too arbitrary to be safe enough from transgressing the boundaries laid down in the Shar'iah. So refrain from imagining what it must be like to live in the shoes of the opposite sex if you plan on assessing the respective difficulty/ease of it, or to hypothesise how much easier/harder your life might have been, for that is to step outside of the role which has been defined for your mind. To say "sisters have it tougher," is it other than to imply that Allah ta'ala is unjust or unfair in making the life of one gender de jure easier than another? Or is it being said after that "but its okay because we're not complaining." But not complaining still does not distract from the fact that it is a slur on the Qadr of Allah (awj). May Allah ta'ala forgive me for any undue harshness, and anything said which disgraced His (awj) Deen by being from ignorance and/or unlearnedness. Abu Khaled |
| Re: Aql & The Qadr of Allah ta'ala |
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| jannah |
| 10/02/00 at 16:27:47 |
| wlm br abukhaled jazakallah khair for your post, I'd like to comment on your comments... [quote] Judgements of *difficulty/ease* should never be made with respect to the hukm of Allah ta'ala, for this is to use ones aql to judge His (awj) rule, which clearly, is shirk. [/quote] This thread does not seem to be about judging shari'ah. Rather it is about discussing why it is sometimes difficult to be a brother or difficult to be a sister, so we can understand one another better and appreciate the differences between us. Each of us thinks it's easier to be a "brother" or "sister". This helps us appreciate what our brother and sister goes through in daily life. I don't believe anyone is commenting on Allah's shari'ah. [quote] It is one thing to say "I find isha hard to pray," for this is not a judgement upon the hukm, but about oneself and ones weakness. Whereas to say (and this is a made up example) "not having to travel with a mahrem for brothers is an ease" is to suggest that one deems ones aql a source for judging that which is easy/difficult.[/quote] This is not what the list is saying. The list is saying, (if that example was used) that sometimes it takes alot of effort for sisters to arrange travel because we need to have a mahram. This does not mean that Allah's hukm is "wrong" or "difficult in itself as a ruling" or should be changed, it is just a statement of fact. This may help brothers realize this and help their sisters, mothers, etc more when they wish to go somewhere. [quote]The list provided about brothers is a generalisation about ease/hardship constructed by applying our own rational precepts about ease/difficulty. This is not the way. In Islam, such concepts are defined by the Shar'iah, not according to the aql.[/quote] I still do not see what this has to do with Shar'iah, the generalizations here are based upon what people feel is sometimes hard to put into practice for brothers or sisters. We may do a similar survey of mothers who say it is difficult to educate their children in this environment. Does this mean we are trying to redifine a shar'iah concept??? No [quote] To compare the roles of the genders is to assume equality, when the only equality is with respect to the law, not to gender. So it is entirely futile to amass a list of things brothers have to do or not do and compare them to what sisters have to do or not do, and then pass judgement on who has it easier or tougher. Who are we to pass such a judgement? It is Al-Shaari' who legislated these roles, so is it other than questioning His (awj) Qadr that such a discussion springs from, or can lead to? [/quote] I agree on this point. It is impossible to compare apples and oranges, but at the same point I do not think they were comparing Shari'ah rules per se, just what muslims may have to go through in this country as a sister or a brother so that we may appreciate what the other goes through. [quote] Even if was not about ease with respect to Islamic Law, but your own opinions, stop and think exactly what you are opining about, and whether such opining is actually halal. To ask "what if," is it not to toss the Qadr of Allah (awj) up in the air for speculation, which begs the questions: what happened to submitting to it? Is judgement of it equivocal to submission to it? [/quote] What are they asking 'what if' about? [quote] So refrain from imagining what it must be like to live in the shoes of the opposite sex if you plan on assessing the respective difficulty/ease of it, or to hypothesise how much easier/harder your life might have been, for that is to step outside of the role which has been defined for your mind. [/quote] Again, correct me if i'm wrong, but i doubt anyone on this thread or board wishes to change their sex and jump into the other's shoes. [quote] To say "sisters have it tougher," is it other than to imply that Allah ta'ala is unjust or unfair in making the life of one gender de jure easier than another? Or is it being said after that "but its okay because we're not complaining." But not complaining still does not distract from the fact that it is a slur on the Qadr of Allah (awj). [/quote] Again that is your implication, but not necessarily that of everyone else. No one is judging Allah's decisions or qadr here and Allah knows best. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Khathija |
| 10/02/00 at 17:16:58 |
| slm when me and se7en had this conversation on fir. we weren't talking about who had it easier in an islamic perspective, we were talking about in an everyday kinda thing. we both know that Allah (SWT) created both men and women with different but equal roles in society. when se7en proposed the question that started this troub... im mean discussion she said not according to Islamic Law i hope this cleared up anyting that was misuderstood. wlm Khathija P.S. lightningatnite i don't think u should be talkin about my marriage cd cuz a little birdie (named Jannah) told me that u listen to it about 8 times a day and u like it soooo much. :) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/02/00 at 18:20:24 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Br. Abu Khaled, jazak Allahu khairan for your comments. When the thread first started I was having very similar feelings actually, that who are we to discuss who has it easier and who doesn't? Besides, if we believe that Allah is the Just and most fair, then it is only fair that both men and women would face an equally difficult time in their lives. And if they don't, then surely they will be rewarded more/less based on the amount of difficulties that they face. However, when I read subsequent posts on the issue, I realized what Jannah has already said. The point of the posters is not to come to a conclusion that a certain gender faces more/less difficulties than the other. Neither is it to whine about things. It is simply to provide an appreciation to the "other gender" that their brothers/sisters go through a lot in life, and thus we should help each other overcome these difficulties. And perhaps, this discussion should also *increase* one's appreciation for being male/female, after having realized the difficulties that the people of the other gender may face. Shouldn't we all be thankful for the way Allah has created us? That should be one outcome of this thread! Thus the idea of coming up with a list for the *other* gender, not your own. If you were coming up with a list of difficulties that *you* have to face, that would be whining and complaining. But it's the other way around, which leads to an appreciation of the Justice of Allah and gratefulness for Him. This is my take on the issue. Wallahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/02/00 at 18:39:48 |
| slm Jannah summed everything really nicely, alhumdullilah. Ok, Arsalan, Asim, and Lightning, I'll send out something insha'Allah tomorrow. |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Anonymous |
| 10/02/00 at 22:32:35 |
| With all due respect to you and your post Br. Abu Khaled, there are seriously grave implications that come with accusing someone of committing shirk. Shirk is a sin Allah will not forgive, and a mushrik is one who is promised a place in Hell. This is a term I would be careful with. Perhaps due to my limited intellectual capacity and the pathetic amount of knowledge of this deen I have actually managed to attain, I fail to see how anyone here is transgressing the bounds of shariah. I fail to see how anyone here is "judging Allah's rule, which clearly, is shirk." I fail to see what takleef has to do with anything they've discussed. I fail to see how anyone here is defining shariah according to intellect. I fail to see anyone asking "what if". I fail to see anyone slurring the Qadr of Allah. Br. Abu Khaled I do fail to see a lot of things but with all due respect you fail to see the purpose of this thread. No one here is questioning if Allah's hukm is fair or just. No one here is questioning the Qadr of Allah. They seek to understand and appreciate one another, and the difficulites and trials that come with being a Muslim. I can talk about the methodology of the Mu'tazilites, their radical rationalism and their Aristotelian-Neoplatonic tradition, how they understood the "creation" of the Qur'an. I can talk about nawakidul Eman, shirk in all it's facets, istadrak ala shar' and its intrinsic implication that we know better than Allah, and so on. Yet none of this is relevant here. What we need when we are equipped with knowledge is hikmah. The correct way to approach people, the correct way to use this knowledge we've been blessed with. And Allah, the most Merciful, the Guide, the Law Giver, knows best. |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/02/00 at 22:45:39 |
| Hmm. That was unnecessarily harsh methinks. |
| what did i do ? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/03/00 at 00:05:59 |
| Salam :) Sorry to jump subjects, I'm a little slow to reply... Ok, I mention one lit-tle thing about khathija's marriage cd and all of the sudden saleema seizes the opportunity to bust my chops about my childhood 'zewel' interest, and dhikr is telling me kajol looks like Ernie's buddy Burt :) Then Bhaloo comes in and proves se7en right and me stupid for the 23@#@!th time(what's the matter man, am I not paying you enough ???, and of course kathija has to come in and kick me while I'm down! I am sorry I listened to your cd kathija. I am sorry I liked jewel when I was like 6 saleema. And dhikr, I'm really sorry I watched all those years of seasme street :) One thing se7en forgot to mention in her list is that brothers don't have a hijab mafia watching their backs :D For the next couple weeks you'll find me posting in Madinat-ul-Hospital-for-Damaged-Egos :) I ask myself and fellow board-people, lets try to smile more inshaAllah :) :) :) -"In the end, only kindness matters"- |
| Re: what did i do ? |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/03/00 at 00:37:47 |
| slm [quote] Then Bhaloo comes in and proves se7en right and me stupid for the 23@#@!th time(what's the matter man, am I not paying you enough ???, [/quote] Your keeping count? Dang! Ok, ok, I'll try and let you win next time :) [quote] -"In the end, only kindness matters"- [/quote] "I will get down on my knees, and I will pray" (Its Isha time here :) ) |
| Abu Khaled and the Foot in his Mouth |
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| AbuKhaled |
| 10/03/00 at 10:05:25 |
| Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem Beloved Brothers and Sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. "I think it would be easier to be a guy,because they got it a lot more easier than girls." "i think being a guy is a whole lot easier…s/times i wish i were a guy" Now, even if the above sentiments arise not because of a belief that the rule of Allah ta'ala is harder on one gender than the other, but a more appreciable reason like the double-standards of parents, or the weaknesses perceived inherently, to me they seemed like an objection to the Qadr of Allah (swt). However, I will now defer my perception to what Sister Jannah clarified, and Brother Arsalan confirmed too. You both almost had me in tears. As for the following: "With all due respect to you and your post Br. Abu Khaled, there are seriously grave implications that come with accusing someone of committing shirk. Shirk is a sin Allah will not forgive, and a mushrik is one who is promised a place in Hell. This is a term I would be careful with." Masha'Allah you would be careful with it. The shirk you allude to is one type of shirk, and yes, you are right it is unforgivable. But it is not the only type of shirk, and certainly not the one one could infer that I was alluding to by my deliberate non-specification. Moreover, I, as always, did not refer to anyone in particular, but rather addressed the gravity of this being done. I do not call my brothers and sisters mushrikeen (not that you said I did). As is my wont, I focussed on the act, not the agent. So the reality remains the same. Whilst I welcome your words, despite their ostensible lack of warmth, unlike Sister Jannah and Brother Arsalan who not only corrected me without anonymity, so I could know whom this correction was coming from and thus make du'a for them, but with a compassion, and mercy which made me felt like swallowing my haste, and apologising to each and every single one of those who might have felt hurt by my words. To this day I have never found in our history muhasaba [accounting] being given anonymously. And I am not about to accept, in spite of the merit therein, muhasaba from one who cannot reveal themselves. For it is linked inextricably to the author, so if the author chooses to veil themselves, then so do their words. We are Muslims, we are one millah, we should not need to hide behind the façade of anonymity. I can understand if one of us has a problem which is embarrassing, or some suchlike, but never should muhasaba, correction, or naseeha etc. be given anonymously. Before one takes on board someones words, one takes the author on board, else anyone can say anything to anyone about anything. I would not have attacked you for your words which rang true, even if I disagree with your *way,* as you did mine. It is no use saying: "No one here is questioning if Allah's hukm is fair or just. No one here is questioning the Qadr of Allah. They seek to understand and appreciate one another, and the difficulites and trials that come with being a Muslim." For the whole point was that I did not see that, so merely reaffirming that that was not what was being done explained nothing. Fortunately the others managed to expound on my misperception by clarifying the matter, jazakallahukhairun for that to them. "I can talk about the methodology of the Mu'tazilites, their radical rationalism and their Aristotelian-Neoplatonic tradition, how they understood the "creation" of the Qur'an. I can talk about nawakidul Eman, shirk in all it's facets, istadrak ala shar' and its intrinsic implication that we know better than Allah, and so on. Yet none of this is relevant here. " Initially you listing your capabilities made me wonder if this was an allusion to a perception that I was being pretentious, especially since anonymous posters have previously accused me of riya [affectation/pretentiousness]. Maybe that is what some of us choose to be anonymous, so caution can be dispensed with, harshness can be more easily employed, and there can be no comeback if they slip-up, unlike those of us who make our mistakes whilst being known, so cannot hide, and alhamdulillah for that ni'ma, so others can be aware of their shortcomings. For we grow together, fall together, and dust ourselves down and get up again, together. This Ummah should be transparent, and there should be disclosure. When no one knows me no fingers can be pointed at me. And I can re-enter as another, my reputation in tact. In as much as supposition about your above words was unwarranted, I thought it better to ask what you were trying to say? I try to be as lucid as possible when I write, so there is no ambiguity. So is the point you are trying to make in such a roundabout way, that the issues I raised were all irrelevant? If so, just say it. No need to inform us of the rest, for that will undoubtedly become manifest as you write, if that is the aim, bi'ithnillah. I stand by what I wrote, though I now acknowledge that it did not apply in this case. Jazakallahukhairun Sister Jannah, Brother Arsalan, and Sister Saleema for the hikmah you each used to make me see what I failed to. I agree with the Brother/Sister Anonymous' reminder that "What we need when we are equipped with knowledge is hikmah," its just a shame that mentioning it had to be preceded by the irony of its absence. Meanwhile I am off to get my Foot in Mouth Disease cured. I ask the forgiveness especially of Sister Se7en who began this thread, and constantly amazes me with her writings, ideas and the potential these point towards as a tremendous resource for this Ummah, and if I had caused her any pain I am so very sorry. I did not intend to dim the light of your infectious enthusiasm. My unreserved apologies also to Sister Khathija. You all burn so brightly masha'Allah that any thought that I may have contributed to muting it is unbearable. Just the thought of it has me so upset- on the verge of tears- with myself, I really hope you can forgive me, but will understand if you cannot. Subhan'Allah, I should have known better. In future I shall hold that which could be a cause for me ruining my akhira (my tongue). If I have learned one lesson from this it is that even if one gives the benefit of the doubt before writing what one does in correcting others, in order to exhaust every possible interpretation of their words that might excuse them, often even then enough husn [benefit] has still not been given. And that it would have been better for me to have asked them if they meant what I had concluded that they meant, rather than stomping in with my size Too-Bigs, and letting rip. I would have even understood if out of reaction, Sister Jannah had not been so patient with me, and instead replied like Brother/Sister Anonymous, but she didn't. And that is what penetrated, alhamdulillah. Maybe that contrast was required, wallahu a'lam. I sincerely entreat my brothers and sisters whom my haste affected and upset, to pray that I learn Al-Hilm [restraint] in future, and never allow pride to become an obstacle to apology. Abu Khaled |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Saleema |
| 10/03/00 at 11:42:44 |
| Assalamoalykum, Br. Abu Khalid: :) :) :) Wassalam |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/03/00 at 14:07:09 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Courage! That's what it takes to write what Br. Abu Khaled wrote up there. May Allah bless you yaa akhee. And I second those smilies of Saleema :) Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/04/00 at 17:44:32 |
| slm Regarding the challenge, we are pleased to announce that we brothers have decided on a name for our group. We would like to be known as "Men on a Mission" . BTW: some of the brothers objected to it being abbreviated. We've been brainstorming and have come up with a list, we just have to organize it a little and insha'Allah post it real soon. |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/04/00 at 20:35:57 |
| assalamu alaikum eevrybody, sorry it took soo long for me to reply se7en dhikr khathija and my other sisters out there, se7en i really thinku did a good job with the list, (yes im that late with this) actually hehe i came up with more but i'll tell u later, so when are the guys ooops i mean "men on a mission" going to have theirs ready? wasalam nouha:) |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| jannah |
| 10/04/00 at 23:35:29 |
| I can't wait till the M.o.M.s come out with their list hehehehehe :D |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/05/00 at 15:45:30 |
| assalamu alaikum everybody, yea me too jannah, but wait a minute theyre supposed to make a list of why its hard to be a girl, easy to be a gurl, what is it supposed to be again, i noe its somewhere in this message board but i dont wanna have to go find it so someone please tell me salam nouha:) thanks |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Khathija |
| 10/05/00 at 16:07:14 |
| slm nouha they are supposed to come up with a list of why its hard to be a sister. i think they are going to post it tomorrow. wlm Khathija |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/05/00 at 16:18:43 |
| Assalamu alaikum, I think all you Albanyians need to post an intro in the Bebzi Stand! That includes peaceman, btw. Wassalam. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/05/00 at 17:46:45 |
| oooooh are u albanyians going to take that? im from troy btw, its like 10 -15 min from albany anyways, nouha:) |
| NS |
| Men On A Mission have the list!!! |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/05/00 at 18:20:52 |
| slm And now for the moment you all have been waiting for. I actually feel a little nervous, wondering how bad we are going to get flamed from the "original three". But here is our list with 15 points, that's right. We have 15 points. So without further ado, I'd like to present to you the members of our group Men on a Mission Arsalan Asim Lightningatnite Bhaloo Please, hold your applause till after the list. Remember, this list was agreed on by everyone, so don't get mad at just one person. So here goes, what do you think? Men On A Mission's List of 15 Reasons Why It Is Difficult to be a Woman. 1). Hijab is a challenge for many women living in the west. Its not easy for them to have to deal with the man misconceptions out there, i.e. are you a terrorist, its a free country, is it hot in there, are you a nun, etc. 2). Women worry about their beauty alot, partly because of men. What if a girl is just born plain unattractive? There is a saying that goes, "Men fall in love with their eyes, women with their ears". 3). After a divorce its much easier for a guy to get married, how many times have we seen this in our own communities? Many people consider the woman from the divorce to be damaged goods, but the man apparently has no problem getting remarried. 4). There is a responsibility and difficulty faced while raising kids. Their is a natural inclination of mothers to their kids, but there is also a responsibility, time and hardship factor attached to it. 5). The confusion associated with marriage. Sisters often have to move far away from their parents homes leaving behind a lot of material and emotional items of attachment. This can be hard. Brothers do not face this problem to such an extent. 6). Emotions. Women are very emotional beings and sometimes they can feel real down and other times really happy and understanding. 7). Women's monthly cycle. No further explanation needed here. 8). Travelling without a maharem. Making the arrangements for this can be difficult for sisters, especially finding a maharem that isn't busy doing something else. 9). Gossiping and backbiting seem to be two serious crimes that affect many women, and its a challenge to avoid these situations since so many women practice this. 10). Strange men consistantly trying to hit on women, Jackson Heights in NYC for example. 11). Many women want to have a 4 year education, but are put into the dilemna of should they marry now or wait till after their degree. Some cultures consider a woman past her marriage date when she's more then 20, and it can make it difficult for some women to get married. 12). Not many places for women to do sports activities or workout, because there are men there, and exposing the awrah. 13).Many women aren't given their rights to express their opinions in mosque activities. 14). Women earn less then their male counterparts in similar jobs. 15). Child birth is an extremely difficult thing that women go through that have children. |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/05/00 at 22:10:24 |
| Salam, MashaAllah, wow, brother Arshad, that was an awesome list you..eh I mean we came up with...:) [quote]Women worry about their beauty alot, partly because of men. What if a girl is just born plain unattractive?[/quote] Yeah, thats a big problem in my family. :D Kiwi, I don't really think being from Troy is something you should be proud of :) By the way, anyone have a place outside of Albany or Troy where I can sleep tonight... ??? |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Khathija |
| 10/05/00 at 20:31:55 |
| slm i think the list was very good. but u guys took the maharam one from us. oh well besides that it was good. the lesson we should get out of this is that both Muslim men and Muslim women have it hard. this should make us appreciate each other more and help each other out too. good job guys would u rather be know as "Men on a Mission" (btw nice name):). wlm Khathija P.S. that one about Jackson Heights sounds strangly familiar. hehehehe ;) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/05/00 at 21:20:41 |
| assalamu alaikum everybody, i thought that was a good list too "nice job men". and since u guys put 15 (more than our 10) u guys proved its harder to be a women than a man, but then again i also agree with khathija, there are hardships in both, and lightingatnite, dont make fun of troy!!, yea its not so great but hey its my hometurf aiite hehe, wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| jannah |
| 10/05/00 at 22:12:39 |
| [quote] Yeah, thats a big problem in my family. :D [/quote] lightning at nite worries about that quite a bit... poor thing, hopefully someone will take pity on him one day and marry him for his *inner* beauty |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/05/00 at 22:34:05 |
| ooooooooh that was harsh, lightingatnite r u going to take that? salam nouha:) |
| NS |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/05/00 at 23:51:11 |
| Salam, ):( W A R [quote]6). Emotions. Women are very emotional beings [/quote] Need I say more...:) [quote]There is a saying that goes, "Men fall in love with their eyes, women with their ears".[/quote] Jannah fell in love with her keyboard :) [quote]10). Strange men consistantly trying to hit on women, Jackson Heights in NYC for example.[/quote] Not a problem for jannah. Jannah, does the name Robert Barr mean anything to you... 8) Props to the other MOMs for putting this together :) Oh yeah, and thanks for keeping the peace Kiwi :) Top 5 politically incorrect reasons its tough to be a Mozlim chick: 5.) Your convertible hijab doesn't quite show off the highlights in your hair. 4.) Its hard to meet nice guys at MSA conferences these days. 3.) Your mother thinks that Habib is perfect for you. 2.) You can't shake Hamza Yusuf's hand. 1.) FOBs |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/06/00 at 00:01:48 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote]and since u guys put 15 (more than our 10) u guys proved its harder to be a women than a man[/quote]No. We just proved that we're smarter! Lightningatnite, man, you're good :D Wassalam. |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| Saleema |
| 09/09/01 at 20:47:21 |
| Assalamoalykum, If Kiwi was a member of the Middle East Peace Process committee, they would all be in big trouble now.(or bigger trouble?) :) The list was good. Those top 5 reasons were funny, :) ,lightningatnite. >>You can't shake Hamza Yusuf's hand.>> I'm green with envy. :( Wassalam |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/06/00 at 01:31:59 |
| slm Glad to hear you guys liked the list. Se7en hasn't commented on it yet. ??? Lightningatnite, are you sleeping in the car for the next few nights? ;) |
| slm |
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| Kathy |
| 10/06/00 at 10:28:32 |
| To the brothers who developed the list: How many of you have wives? |
| A Mission for us Men |
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| AbuKhaled |
| 10/06/00 at 13:51:41 |
| Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem Dear brothers and Sisters, Would you object if I added my own contribution? 1. Sisters often confront double-standards, usually based on cultural patriarchy, which curtail or limit them using/optimising their potential as resources for the Ummah (e.g. prevention from seeking knowledge, attending Islamic events). 2. Sisters often have no recourse when they become subject to tragic situations- including domestic violence (because he provides the house and income), divorce, abandonment- because we lack infrastructure dedicated specially to their needs. So they are left feeling without a choice other than to put up with it. 3. Independence of life is still hard won, yet necessary, because too many brothers are unreliable as husbands and fathers, so Sisters need to be able to stand on their own two feet in this world should the need arise, while the work of building a generation of brothers who would ensure that they would not need to be worried continues, insha'Allah ta'ala. 4. Sisters are left behind when a brother leaves for jihad or tabligh, yet often the brother does not help prepare them with the knowledge of how to cope with life's daily necessities in the absence of him being there to fill that role. 5. Once a Sister is under the jurisdiction of her husband, if he lacks Islam, she will suffer, for either he will invoke Islam for his own ends, or, he won't even do that. 6. (Some) Sisters tend to capitulate to the will of their husbands, out of a virtuous desire to sacrifice their happiness for his, and that is often exploited by the husband, and the ingratitude becomes indelible. Compromise is a necessary part of marriage, but all too often it is one-sided. 7. Sisters are often expected to be servants in the home. Especially in extended-family situations. 8. (This applies more in rural Muslim communities, especially in the Indian sub-continent). Achieving justice is nigh on impossible (e.g. when a Sister is raped, and then she is accused of adultery!!), especially when she has been prevented from empowerment through education all her life, by those who thought they were acting in her best interests, yet know not themselves. 9. Many Muslim (not Islamic) families/communities still place too many unnecessary stifling restrictions on Sisters, which are more cultural than they are Islamic. 10. A perception still seems to predominate where the quality of a Sister's piety is judged solely by her wearing hijab or not. As if wearing it automatically means she must be pious, and the converse is assumed about those who don't wear it. When in fact, hijab is one obligation amongst a myriad. Such a perception (sic) can damage the psychology of a Sister who does not. 11. There is still a severe shortage of female scholars, so not only are female role models in the contemporary age lacking with *specific* reference to this area, but also, well, some issue are just kinda sensitive to discuss with male Ulema- purely from the perspective of empathy, nothing else. 12. Many of our Islamic Speakers/Educators don't make sufficient time for Sister-specific questions/sessions at Islamic events/classes where it could be reasonably foreseeable that such questions might arise (given the subject matter), so often there is a crowding-out effect by the inconsideration of brothers, and a lack of realisation by the speaker/teacher. Sisters have issues which are just as important, and such opportunities are frequently sadly hogged by brothers who don't stop to think about their Sisters needs/wants (enough). Again though, this is changing, alhamdulillah. 13. Access to Ulema is enjoyed more easily by brothers (in general). 14. The Islamic empowerment of Sisters to the level of Alim(a) through the seeking of traditional, orthodox knowledge, has not paralleled that of the brothers, for some of the above mentioned reasons (*not* because of incapability, lack of enthusiasm or effort, and the like). Recent years have seen a move towards redress, alhamdulillah, to the extent that a number of Shuyukh have commented on how sisters seem to often outnumber brothers at halaqa, darses, talks, etc. More as they come to me, bi'ithnillah. Forgive me if my list sombres the mood somewhat. I am writing out of nausea at something which was related to me yesterday from the book "Blasphemy" by Tehmina Durrani. It concerns some village men who intoxicated some youth with drugs used to increase the virility of animals. Whilst high, they were encouraged to gang-rape a young pregnant Sister, who in her trauma, hung herself. If that isn't sickening enough, add to it this sting in the tale. Whilst she was hanging herself, she went into labour, and when she was found, they also found her now dead newborn child hanging beneath its mother, by it's uncut umbilical cord which had strangled it. I can't verify if it is a true incident, but I don't doubt such things occur, for I know of too many similar incidents which have been verified. I love my Sisters in Islam so much, all of you without exception. Wallahi, you all are so incredible in my eyes, for your struggle, determination, sacrifice. and spirit. I just pray we brothers are worthy to be by your side in the roles Allah ta'ala has made us responsible for. When I learn of such incidents it really breaks my heart. This is the world we live in, yet some times because it is a world so far away from our own, we limit ourselves to feeling bad and short bursts of pressure-releasing activity. In a poem I wrote recently, I echoed a sentiment I am feeling now: "For how long will doing something remain an excuse for not doing enough?" If my words are unclear or my list lacks sense or a sense of fairplay, it is because right now, at this very moment, I write with tears clouding my vision… La hawla wala quwwata illah billah… Abu Khaled |
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| widad |
| 10/06/00 at 11:16:05 |
| slm You asked Kathy, Saleema and me to be judges,I guess in this case we have to have a private conference,then answer right?? What is the criteria here?? |
| Re: things that make you go hmmmm |
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| widad |
| 10/06/00 at 11:22:45 |
| slm While I was posting my answer,the last poster as posting his and it really is sad but very near the truth,so now it will be very difficult to make a comparison between the two lists ,because now we have three!!! |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/06/00 at 11:26:50 |
| slm Widad: that was for the sister's list, not for MOM's list, oops I mean Men on a Mission. I guess all the lists are just fine. :) Abu Khaled mentions some good points alhumdullilah that I feel are topics in themselves and perhaps we can talk about some of these points in greater detail in a separate thread for some of these issues. Sometimes we will hear news that someone is in need of help and we might not realize just how bad the situation is or what exactly is being done. So insha'Allah we'll discuss some of those. I also need to see if I have any information on some of those matters. |
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| kiwi25 |
| 10/06/00 at 15:08:10 |
| assalamu alaikum everybody, abu khaled , your post was very deep and very true in many if not all cases, but yes all lists were good, saleema, u really think i wud cuase trouble at the middle east process thing hehe:) !! se7en where are u? im going to call u ritght now so u can post something hehe:) salam |
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| Khathija |
| 10/06/00 at 15:20:11 |
| slm for those who don't know kiwi she just has a hard core image( i think its a troy thing hehehehe ;) ), but she is a really sweet girl. love u kiwi wlm Khathija |
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| Malika |
| 10/06/00 at 16:32:55 |
| Wa Alaikum Salam, One would think (ok I mean me) that the problems I've encountered in this lifetime thus far could not have been handled as well if I were a guy! :) As for speculation, I think being a guy would have been somewhat easier although with a totally different set of "things". There are different perks for each role but out of all the things there is I guess to be blessed by Allah is by far the greatest acheivement whether you are a guy or girl. |
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| Sara |
| 10/06/00 at 23:04:45 |
| Assalam, I was reading the October/November issue of THE WASHINGTON REPORT ON THE MIDDLE EAST AFFAIRS and on page 39 it says: ...BUT GIRLS STILL ENVIOUS OF BOYS: A recent sociological survey of Iranian girls found that 53 percent would prefer to have been boys. THE SAUDI GAZETTE of Aug. 22 comments that despite the recent reforms of Iran's President Mohammad Khatami, who won the vast majority of women's votes in the elections, burdensome social restrictions continue to make life difficult for women, to the point that an Iranian man who had a sex change operation has been trying to reverse the process. Additionally, statistics reveal that, unlike in Western societies, the suicide rate in Iran is higher for women than for men. I am NOT making this up! |
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| Asim |
| 10/06/00 at 23:26:01 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, I don't buy too much into these surveys. Consider this test: Ask a group of people a question about a topic in which they have little or no knowledge giving them two options. Approximately half will say yes, and the other half no! The result will be purely random. We don't know what the sample was. Further, we also have to consider the overwhelming influence of western media that continuously bombards Muslims women all over the world. I'm not saying there is no truth to these findings but just making a point how statistics can be misleading. [quote] ...BUT GIRLS STILL ENVIOUS OF BOYS: A recent sociological survey of Iranian girls found that 53 percent would prefer to have been boys. THE SAUDI GAZETTE of Aug. 22 comments that despite the recent reforms of Iran's President Mohammad Khatami, who won the vast majority of women's votes in the elections, burdensome social restrictions continue to make life difficult for women, to the point that an Iranian man who had a sex change operation has been trying to reverse the process. Additionally, statistics reveal that, unlike in Western societies, the suicide rate in Iran is higher for women than for men. [/quote] |
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| jawadio |
| 10/07/00 at 12:59:00 |
| Bismillah, Salam.... Masha Allah... this brother took the words out of my mouth. Why is that people assume that freedom makes things easier? And why is that they take protection as "lack of freedom"? Just because a man might have more freedom, that certainly doesn't make life any easier. In the same way that a man has the ability to do more good, there is also the ability to do more evil. And given the society that we are in, which by it's very nature seeks to bring out the most base, vile, and low aspects of a human being out, and given that men have "more freedom," it is no wonder that time and time again we see the Muslim brothers are the ones that are falling severely short in living up to standards of this deen. A simple show of this is looking at MSAs throughout the campuses on the US: most of them have a strong faction of women that are the active members. Time and again (if you have listened to a number of Shaykh Hamza's lectures) you see him asking, "Why is it that the only ones taking notes today are the women???" He even did that at this ISNA as well (for some of you that weren't there). While yes, certainly it is true that a Muslimah has to deal with more because of the fact that they wear hijab. But there is a tremendous psychological aspect to this that is completely overlooked: when a young girl of 12, 0r 13 decides, "I am going to wear hijab now," she is DEFINING herself as a Muslim from that point on, and everyday of her life she is living with that fact and reinforcing it. That one defines themself as a Muslim, and then has to defend it and almost (literally) wear it on their sleeve ALL THE TIME has a tremendous impact on the identity of a human being. Our young men lack any kind of parallel to that. In fact, given that they have this "freedom" (normally freedom has positive connotations to it, but I use it here in purely negative sense, as in the freedom to SIN), and they have so many options of sins - whether it is girls, music, drinking, drugs, money, the DUNYA, arrogance, self-delusion, love of their selves, you name it -it should not surprise any of us why some of the brothers are a little lackluster when it comes to their Islam. Alhamdulillah the protection (ie the lack of freedom to sin, being blocked and therefore protected from the means of sinning) that a Muslimah has can never be underestimated in the slightest and should be valued above and beyond any things that they are held back from in the dunya, whether it is a job, or travelling, or anything else that, by shari`ah, would be considered "tahsinat," or luxurious. And here's another thing worth considering: D o you know how many burdens that Muslim men carry? On the one hand there is the responsibility of setting up communities - schools, masjids, etc. Then taking care of one's family, one's parents, wife, children by providing for them. At the same time they have to preserve the heritage of this deen by learning the shari`ah and then implementing it WHILE they are doing those previous things. Add to that, a nafs that orders him to sin, and a society that encourages him... To give a rather timely example of possibly the single most frustrating thing for any Muslim male that has a heart: the recent massacres of our brothers in Palestine. Do you know how many Muslim men WANT to go there right now? Whose hearts are literally in TEARS at this, but they are bound here due to their responsibilities? Or even worse: simply do not know WHICH responsibility they should deal with first? Please don't misunderstand me. I am not complaining about any of these burdens that Allah has put on me or my brothers. Not in the slightest. I firmly believe that I come into being a true Muslim by attempting to fulfill the obligations that Allah has put upon me so I am not complaining. But I just find it curious that people are willing to look at all the "perks" of being a guy over a girl, and have not really mentioned any of the challenges that men face and interpret the blessings of being a woman as being somehow being deprived from certain "perks." Wa salam, Jawad. PS: as an aside, it is nice to see that lightningatnite also sat with Shaykh Abdullah al-Qadi and Shaykh Muhammad Ya`qoubi - two teachers who I have the utmost love and respect for, and desire to study under again in the future. [quote]asalamalaikum, Peace be with you :) "ar-rijaal qawammun alan nisaa." - al-baqarah, ayah 228 Do you know what this means? This doesn't mean that men are over women. It means that I have to look out for Jannah and Se7en, and this is a Divine command that I will be held accountable for when I stand before Allah. This means that brothers hold ultimate responsibility for all the screwed up crap in our society. This means that everytime you see a hungry person, oppression, injustice, unbelief, erosion of morality, basically the direct responsibility for the maintaining and spreading of Islam lies upon brothers. It means that accountability for this falls on the brothers. This doesn't mean that sisters shouldn't maintain and spread Islam in a society at large, just that they're not held responsible for it on the Day of Judgement. What I mean is that a womans responsibility is equal to a mans, but hers is localized and his is generalized. dhikr, why do you look at all the benefit of being a guy and forget all the responsibilities that come with it too? You can't have the bebzi and drink it too. Sure there are props that come with being the driver, but you also get the tickets and you better be heading in the right direction (and if you're not I guarantee you'll be nagged about it...haha j/k :) Did you ever wonder why it seems like there aren't that many very religious brothers out there? That's because it's damn hard to be a good Muslim male in the United States! You can think whatever you want, but you don't know what it's like to be a brother unless you are a brother. This is just my honest opinion. I'm sure sisters have things that they got to go through too. So far this thread has been a good outlet for sisters to talk about what they've experienced, but I don't think it's been objective about looking at this issue. Obviously the points made are valid, but that doesn't mean that brothers don't have their share of problems too. Do you think freedom makes things easier for you? The fact that I can walk into a crowded room and not have anyone know I am a Muslim doesn't make things any easier for me. It makes things a whole lot harder. I think I already made this point, but I need to emphasize it, because it is so critical, and I don't think that we as Muslims have realized what this is doing to the next generation. Of the seven people who will be shaded on the Day of Judgement, one will be a man who resisted the temptation of a woman. When asked about whether a woman who resisted the temptation of a man will have this same shade, Sheikh Abdullah al-Kadi said, "she will have reward, but I cannot say she will have shade." This shows us how hard yet important it is for a brother to keep his modesty. Though a sister should also, I think she doesn't face the same hardship a brother does. My experience tells me that 95% of the brothers no longer practice Islam because of this weakness. And Allah knows best. Please forgive me for offending you (because I'm sure I have :) Ok, I don't want to argue, I just want to discuss this thing. Hook me up with some feedback :) [/quote] |
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| jawadio |
| 10/06/00 at 23:37:20 |
To give a rather timely example of possibly the single most frustrating thing for any Muslim male that has a heart: the recent massacres of our brothers in Palestine. Do you know how many Muslim men WANT to go there right now? Whose hearts are literally in TEARS at this, but they are bound here due to their responsibilities? Or even worse: simply do not know WHICH responsibility they should deal with first? Just to clarify this: I don't deny that sisters have this desire as well - for jihad, or for remedying the situation of contemporary Muslims - but certainly some of these problems (specifically jihad) can realistically only be done by the male members of our societies. Too many people WANT to do something, but simply do not have outlets for this desire and it compounds their frustrations moreso knowing that one day they will stand before Allah and He - in all His wisdom and justice - will take each and everyone of us to task for things that we SHOULD be doing. While a Muslimah might want to do jihad, she does not have taklif (responsibility to ALlah) for it, but certainly the men do. Wa Allahu ta`ala `alim. Wa salam, Jawad. |
| NS |
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| Saleema |
| 10/07/00 at 01:38:05 |
| Assalamoalykum, Br. Abu Kahlid, that was a darn *good* list. I am not surprised to find out that you are a poet. We, all of us on this board, would love to hear at least *one* of your poems. Please? In the shahada section? Jawadio, I like what you had to say too. The only time I wish I was a guy is when I desire to do jihad, the physical jihad. But I guess that I can do other types of jihad to help people. You know, Abu Khalid, have you ever thought about writing a book or something. I am serious, I am not saying this merely to flatter you, I would buy your book hot off the press. Thank you for your kind words for the oppressed sisters of the world. Not many people think about it, even women sometimes. You have no idea how many times I have been called a feminist when I point out that so many women don't get their God given rights. Wassalam |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/07/00 at 11:45:51 |
| Salam, Kathy, me a single MoM :( Sister Saleema, I'm afraid to say something cause I don't want to start a huge debate on feminism. But I think I'll say it anyway because I think we're making tremendous progress in this thread when it comes to understanding the opposite gender, and we're really listening to each other. If a brother calls a sister a feminist, it could be because one of two reasons: The first is if she knows her rights in Islam. The second is because of a certain attitude she has in the way she goes about securing these rights. Its kinda hard to explain, and I don't really have a solution for this, but the problem is this: How can a sister insist on her rights in a society that consistently denies them, while maintaining hayaa' and not becoming overly assertive. Or am I wrong, is assertiveness a good thing for a sister? Not that you're assertive Saleema...unless thats a good thing... ;) uh can you tell I'm being careful with words :) [quote]They don't waste money on hair and makeup products. -sara[/quote] Haha, Sara, haven't you ever met desi guys...! Arshad, its freezing out in the Jeep :) Wassalam, |
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| Saleema |
| 09/09/01 at 20:54:00 |
| Assalamoalykum, Yes, Lightning aT Night, I can see that you are being careful with words. Go ahead, speak your mind! I am used to being criticized, mostly harshly sometimes and I don't mind at all. In fact, I am friends with some of my greatest criticizers. Its the training I got in Debate and Journalism. :) I know my rights in Islam, (at least I think I do). And its not just the brothers who have called me a feminist, but sisters and "aunties" as well. For instance when I stress that when the imam or someone else is giving the Khutba at our Masjid, theya always say, "brothers... brothers..." What about the sisters? You may be like, its not a big deal, but it is. It shows the mentality of this Ummah, as if only the brothers need to know how to be good active Muslims. Have you ever heard of Direct Appeal? It has a great pshycological impact on a person. If it is done in the right way. For the Muslim women to benefit from this too, the speakers need to address them directly. When I mentioned this to a speaker that next time he should address the sisters too, to straighten up the lines while praying, I was branded a feminist by another sister. While the brother who gave the khutba realized his mistake. He actually speaks up for the sisters, there are very few people who do that in our community. Wassalam |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/08/00 at 01:41:52 |
| Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, Br. Abu Khaled wrote: [hr]8. (This applies more in rural Muslim communities, especially in the Indian sub-continent)...[hr] So are you from the Indian subcontinent bro? I'm totally confused now. I thought you were an Arab!?! Would you mind posting an intro about yourself in the Bebzi stand. If not, at least IM me and let me know :) Jazak Allahu khairan. Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| kiwi25 |
| 09/09/01 at 20:55:18 |
| assalamu alaikum eevrybody, saleema i think what u wrote was very well done u go gurl, wasalam nouha:) |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/12/00 at 19:19:00 |
| *from my man who said he was to shy too post :) : assalam-alaikum, on the assertiveness question, after the death of the Prophet (SAWS) a sahabi once said that you get punished in the grave if people wail and lament over your death, Aisha (RA) refuted him with an Ayat of the Qur'an saying 'one soul cannot be burdened with the sins of another. She also asked the prophet after he made a statement about the Shaheed not being judged on the last day how can that be since the Qur'an says all we'll all be judged? Also the woman who corrected Omar about the marriage money... WE need more assertive people provided they are speaking with full adab. wa-salam -------------- salam, I really feel bad when people use the Qur'an to justify abuse...I mean they miss the whole point. The Arabs in jahiliyya used to treat their women like animals. The Qur'an elevated women and commanded love for them. I remember shaykh Hamza telling us about a guy who came up to a Faqhi and started arguing with him about a certain ayat concerning kaafirs. The Faqhi then said " Do you know what ayat came before it, and after it, so that I may know what the context of the ayat is?" The man said "No." Then he asked " Do you even know what surah the ayat is in?" The man said "No." Then the Faqhi says "What do you do for a living?" He says "I'm a mechanic." The Faqhi replies "Then fix cars, and InshaAllah Allah will fix you." :) Kind of harsh, but he deserved it :) There's too many people out there taking things out of context. I agree with kiwi, we need more sisters to speak up. Wassalam :D |
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| mahsou411 |
| 10/12/00 at 11:40:00 |
| As Salaam Aliakum, I must admit I avoided this thread at first because it was soooooo long:) But boy am I glad I read it. There is such great stuff being said here. Bro Abu Khaled: Your list was right on target. I definately think there are too many sister, expecially in other countries who do not recieve the rights ordained by Allah. Also, I can say that too often the injustice against sisters in this country is over looked. Our communities need to address the domestic violence issue and do it openly. So many muslims don't even know that it happens! As for the sisters being assertive, I just read some info about the wives of the Prophet (saws) and one of his wives (I think Hafsa raa) was known before she married the Prophet (saws) for being outspoken and remained that way after the marriage. The ummah at the time knew that his wives were known for "answering back" and he did not forbid it. In fact, I think one of Hafsa's (raa) relatives (I can't remember his name, a little help here, Jannah, Abu Khaled, Arshad...someone?) went to her and told her to stop but she said it was none of his business and the Prohpet(saws) allowed it so who is he to try and prohibit it. I think I will have to go and look it up. I'll be back later insha'Allah because it is a good point I'm trying to make here...honest:) Salaam, Aminah (from Boston, which RULES!!!!!!) |
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| kareema |
| 10/13/00 at 19:40:28 |
| Remember when Aisha refused to thank the Prophet after being cleared by the Quranic revelation?Talk about assertiveness!Its pretty clear(unless your saying something against the Shariah)that a muslim women doesn't have to sit down and shut up and accept what happens to her, I think she should be very assertive when it comes to promoting Shariah.When its questionable, she should take a more measured tone.So assertiveness in of itself may not necessarily be good, it may just depend on what you're trying to assert. That goes for both genders. |
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| Insaaf |
| 10/15/00 at 01:38:53 |
| Assalamu alaikum ahlal madinah :) Subhanallah, i believe this is the first time i post on here, and hopefully people will still not have a large idea of who i am. I stayed away from this super long thread, but alhamdulilah, i like the course that it has taken on. brother lightingatnite, you are too funny. On Assertiveness, i have to admit that it is difficult being assertive and maintaining the haya. However, if a muslim looks back at the true teachings of the Qur'an and the sunnah, that person will find that Islam is a truly feminist religion, meaning it gives rights to women, and at the same time, places them on a high pedestal. However, sometimes, i try and refrain from using the word feminist, just because of the negative connotations attached to it. Not only that, but the truth is, many women in this society have abused the freedoms they attained by wanting everything only for themselves and not taking issues in a balanced way, like Islam does. Alhamdulilahi ala ni'matil Islam, Thank you Allah for the ni'mah (blessing) of Islam. May Allah reward everyone for their constant hard work and effort. wasalamu alaikum Insaaf |
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| ABD |
| 10/26/00 at 20:16:22 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, I am not taking a side to whether being a guy or girl is more difficult, but I'm here to say that both sides have their difficulties. What lightningatnite said was right. The brothers have to watch out for the sisters and they will be judged more strictly. My parents were talking about making a will, and they said that if they die over the next couple years, my brother has to take care of us. One reason because he's the oldest, and the second is because in Islam the brother has to take care of his sisters/brothers. However, girls also have it bad. Women in Islam have to wear hijab, long sleeves, and long pants or skirts. No matter if it is summer or winter, women still have to cover up from head to toe unlike men who can wear short sleeves and shorts down to their knees. Women also have to bear children, even though I've never experienced it, from what I hear, it is a very painful experience, especially for women in labor for a long period of time. Another challenge women in Islam have to face is dealing with insults and all kinds of questions involving our hijab throughout our everyday lives, and when I say it is trouble I am talking from experience. I used to think that being a guy was so much easier just because they don't have to cover up as much as we do, but as I got older and more wiser, I've found out that men and women have their own responsibilities and difficulties. My point is that Allah-u Teala created some of us men and some of women and we cannot change that. So, we have to be thankful and happy for what we have, and thank Allah-u Teala for not giving us mental sicknesses or diseases. Salam |
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| jannah |
| 10/30/00 at 22:58:14 |
| nice post betul :) welcome to the madina ! anyone who can make double layer chocolate cake and post like that is awesome in my book ;) |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/06/00 at 15:07:07 |
| I am a female and currently I was having my shares of issues on wanting to be a guy. Its not because I am unhappy as a female, no alhamdulillah I am very thankful for what Allah has made me but I think that some things would be more "fun" like Jihad, now as a female i feel that i would have been better as a male in some issues such as jihad, studying Islam, having a beard :) etc........... but thats just a personality traid because you know for girls some things are alot easier we can control our nafs better than men and you know I am content with being female for that reason. Subhanallah |
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