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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

articles against homosexuality
nadeem
10/06/00 at 09:20:26
Salaam. Bros! any links to articles on the web refuting homosexuality or any other articles on this filth, let me know , asap. Gotta cuss some loud n proud batty boyz at work! wassalaam

Re: articles against homosexuality
se7en
10/06/00 at 15:16:10
wasalaam, Br. Nadeem you sounded so American in your other posts, but now it's obvious which side of the Atlantic you're on! And there are sisters here too you know :) Sr. jannah posted a good article on homosexuality, I think it's in the Ummah Community Center, might wanna check it out. wasalaam.

Re: articles against homosexuality
Crow
10/06/00 at 18:51:21
assalaamu alaikum Nadeem i think you should have made your request more politely. Reason being, there are a number of muslims out there who as a result of mixing in the wrong crowds are sincerely confused about their own sexuality. When i used to log onto IRC there were a number of occasions when muslims who had gay feelings came online to seek help. As soon as they announced their problem they were insulted and cursed on the channel, whereas, in private conversations it became clear to me that what these guys really needed was sincere help. I can only think that as soon as a person with a problem sees your words, he will surf out of here, whereas, there are people here who can help.

Re: articles against homosexuality
bhaloo
10/06/00 at 21:21:30
slm IRC has deteriorated to the state of having homosexuals on there?  It wasn't like that when I served as an administrator there a few years back. here's some info on it that I sent someone recently: Whoever you find committing the sin of the people of Lut (Lot), kill them, both the one who does it and the one to whom it is done" - i.e. if it is done with consent. (This hadeeth was narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan, 1376) The scholars of Islam, such as Maalik, al-Shaafi'i, Ahmad and Ishaaq said that (the person guilty of this crime) should be stoned, whether he is married or unmarried. As for scientific proof, there was an interesting study done by ABC news, showing that they haven't found a gay gene. http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/gaygene990422.html Even if he has desires for other men, he needs to control those desires and fullfill his desires by halal means, marriage to a woman.   Regarding those people that say homosexuality is acceptable, and natural, Sheikh Munajidd answered like this: Praise be to Allaah. We do not agree with their claim that their sexual orientation is natural; rather it is a distortion of nature. Allaah counted their deed as wrongdoing and immoral, and He sent upon the people of Lut a punishment the like of which no other nation had seen. He also tells us that this punishment is not ever far from the wrongdoers. Their claim that their orientation is natural serves only to propagate and spread immorality, and it is just an excuse for them. Many of them change their appearance so as to look odd, so how can we say that this is how they were created? Allaah does not create anyone just to punish or torture them. He created mankind to worship Him, but He may try His slaves with hardship as a test of their faith, to expiate for their sins and to raise their status. Allaah is too Just to force a person to commit sin and then punish him. On the contrary, people commit sins by their own free choice – like these perverted people – and it is for this that they deserve to be punished. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “and your Lord treats no one with injustice” [al-Kahf 18:49] And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Nay, Allaah never commands Fahshaa’ (evil deeds, unlawful sexual intercourse). Do you say of Allaah what you know not?” [al-A’raaf 7:28]

Re: articles against homosexuality
jannah
10/06/00 at 22:20:10
Here's a link to the thread where we were talking about Islam's view of homosexuality [url]http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=110[/url]

Re: articles against homosexuality
Asim
10/07/00 at 00:04:11
Assalaamu alaikum, Have you ever noticed how one day a news item will say how medical 'research' has found a link between this and that, and the next day another 'research' proves it wrong? Medical research and the subsequent mass media reports have become big business. I frequent a couple of science websites and 90% of the news is of this kind. World news on TV, other TV programs, etc all carry medical themes. Because this is big business. Research in most medical cases are driven/funded by special interest groups. They start out with a goal of proving something and use statistical jargon to show they are right without exhasting all options. And the subsequent mass media reports don't even have the statistical details, just plain misleading information. Consider this excerpt from the article Arshad posted that refers to the early study that "showed" that a DNA sequence is responsible for gay behavior: "the 1993 study by biologist Dean Hamer of the National Cancer Institute. Hamer found that in 40 pairs of gay brothers, 33 had the same set of DNA sequences in a region of the chromosome called Xq28. " First of all, the sample is way too small. Secondly, the apparent similarity they found may be due to something else. Did they consider all other possibilities??? I doubt it. These 40 people may be similar in some other way. Moreover, there are millions (I think > 100 millions) DNA sequences. How is it that a particular sequence in the X chromosome is responsible? Most likely, the researchers started out with the goal of proving that homosexuality is caused by genes and then shaped their results accordingly. This is not how research is done. BTW, misreporting is very common in research particularly in the medical area. Wasalaam.

Re: articles against homosexuality
nadeem
10/07/00 at 13:14:34
salaam alaykum. jazakallah for the info & link. se789en. sorry , i was writing that message in a hurry i forgot to add 'and sisters'!! gosh , we have to be so politically correct here innit!!..o ok..just kiddin...! what made u think im american (god forbid)!!lol crow: in some circumstances, i agree , have to be more sensitive , but in most , i think it should be treated as filth, and that it showed be known that it will not be tolerated, just like other munkarat...so no politness from me! wasalaam.

Re: articles against homosexuality
chachi
10/08/00 at 20:15:38
Well if you guys had studied philosophy of science you would know theres no such thing as 'science' *lol* see 'what is this thing called science' by chalmers or perhaps read about Kuhns paradigms *lol* or try Paul Feyerabend

Ohnosexual
AbuKhaled
10/09/00 at 15:14:22
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah Brother Nadeem, I have a reasonable amount of experience- bi'ithnillah- discussing homosexuality, with both kuffar and Muslims (not gay Muslims, but those who find it hard to reconcile the fact that it is haram, with their politically-correct Islam). More than once I have engaged in protracted debates on the subject at another Discussion Board. In fact, right now, on the Board I am referring to, there is a thread devoted to the very subject of whether asian culture is the most homophobic in the world, where most of the asian contributors happen to be secular Muslims, Not only are a number of homosexual kuffar present, but also heterosexual kuffar who either support the "right" for them to be homosexual, or are indifferent, since they don't consider it a moral issue. So it’s the common "consenting adults" rationale. What is most depressing about the thread, is that it is a discussion centred around a columnist who is a Muslim Sister, who posed the question in her weekly column, where she examined the issue of asian homophobia. What is worse is that I have to contend with Muslims (!!) who desperately try to reconcile their secularity with their Islam, and go to great pains to distance themselves from those Muslims who condemn homosexuality, as "not being representative  of all Muslims," a'uzubillah. What is especially troubling is: 1. The intensity of the homosexuals arguing their case and the difficulty which they actually manage to pose to the Muslims who try and undermine their arguments. It is unfortunate how they manage to succeed in giving the Brothers who actually have some passion for the Deen such a hard time. 2. The naďve way the Muslims who actually abide the Islamic view, reason their standpoint. Often I find myself explaining to the Muslims, that whilst yes homosexuality is haram, the aqli [rational] explanations *they* are forwarding for the tahrim [prohibition] is wrong, which is why the homosexuals manage to give them such a hard time. For example, as soon as you take the line that "homosexuality is unnatural," you enter into murky water. Not because the instinct to procreate is unnatural, but because the fitrah does not extend to hetero/homosexuality. Rather it just stops at sexuality, and beyond that, the choice is made by the insaan. That some/most incline to heterosexuality is no more a proof than the homosexual line about always being iinclined that way. If you choose to rely on such an argument, then you will have to concede to the homosexuals invoking the same reasoning in support of their orientation, for not to do so would smack of inconsistency. When people argue that "I've always felt this way," that then becomes their proof that it is natural. Yet we need to, as Muslims, always have intellectual acuity. In Islam, fitrah is not synonymous with what is meant by *natural* when used in the context of this debate. We need to remember that fitrah has a shar'a definition, and so its lexical meaning is not what is relevant here. Now, we need to be extremely clear on this, so lets pause for a moment and expound on what we mean: That, yes, it is fitrah (lexically) for the species to continue through heterosexual means (even if, in our times, it does not require the actual act of procreation to occur, thanks (!!) to artificial insemination). Meaning, you still need the sperm and the egg. However, this is not what homosexuality is about. The argument is not about procreation, but *attraction, inclination, disposition.* So I personally believe that when we argue about it being unnatural form the viewpoint of procreation, we are entirely missing the point, wallahu ta'ala a'lam. Now, there is just no way anyone can rebutt someone who says they have always, for as long as they can remember, been attracted to the same gender. What are you going to do? Accuse them of lying?! No. That's no proof against them. Just dismissing their words is not a sound means of establishing your point. Else why shouldn't they just dismiss yours? So, what is the way? Well, firstly, we need to realise that the argument of nature, just as it is wrong when we use it against homosexuality, is ALSO wrong when they use it, relying on the evidence of "experience" (i.e. when they invoke that they have always been like this). It is *not* wrong in the sense that it might be true for them in their personal life-experience, no, for there is just no way to know, and we have no nass [text]- to my limited knowledge- which undermines them saying that (i.e. any text which says it is unnatural. All we have are nusus [texts] which prove it is haram,. Haram  and unnatural are not the same). However, and heres the point: the issue of personal experience is not an objective proof for the naturality of homosexuality. Why? Because it is unverifiable objectively. There's just no way of testing the in/validity of the claim. It is the same when someone claims a Divine experience. There's no way to prove they are lying (unless it opposes something established as being impossible through the nass), yet even if they are not, it cannot be a proof for you. More than this, there are documented cases in the USA of homosexuals changing their sexual orientation to heterosexuality. Now how can that be if it is something they had no choice about?? The only possible retort a homosexual could have would be "well, they must have been confused from the outset." In other words, as with any deviation from the set, exclude them from the group, by labelling them with abnormality. That they are the exception to the rule. Very sneaky, but no prize. So now they have a new bandwagon to jump on. Namely the so-called recent scientific research that homosexuality is genetic pre-disposition. Huh. Believe you me Brother Nadeem, in all my online encounters with homosexuals, I have yet to meet one who can even show me that he's actually read the research!! Rather, all of them that I've met (and this cannot be generalised, since I've only met a few- and alhamdulillah for that, for they are more than enough!) seem to have just embraced the research without even so much as a cursory attempt at falsification. In other words, because it supported their view they just leapt to adopt it. What kind of validation is that?? What is falsification? It is a methodology (pioneered by Karl Popper) used to test the validity of a scientific hypothesis. Without it, no scientific theory is given credence. So, basically what happens is that a rigorous attempt at testing the strength of the theory is made, by testing the assumptions it is based upon. Again, to date, I have come across no falsification studies of this theory (not that I've gone out of my way to seek them out mind you- like I've got nothing better to do with my time than convince people who are furthest from using their aql, and closest to acting on their nufus [base desires?] to come to the Deen- there are plenty more worthy candidates, wallahu a'lam), which again points to something sinister bubbling underneath. But let us not put our Conspiracy Theory coats on just yet.  :-) Now, what is beautiful in all of this is that the falsification which we (i.e. Muslims) can use is watertight. Why? Because it is nothing less than the sword of Haqq! But before we unsheath the sword, perhaps another point worthy of your consideration. Even if we dispense with the notion of scientific falsification, we still have another objective (i.e. not a I-am-a-Muslim-therefore-I-must-be-right argument, which somehow just doesn't cut it with those who don't accept Islam) criticism. And in fact, on a side note, to rely on the concept of falsification as your best hope of refuting homosexuality, is highly dangerous, for (i) using it is a tacit approval of the scientific method as an objective methodology for establishing truth in all spheres of life (which is patently false, as science has its domain), (ii) the attempt at falsification uses the same premises as the scientific method itself, for it is from it, thus it is prone to the same criticisms as it, and (iii) falsification can fail if the hypothesis is indeed a sound one. Which is the last thing you need when you're trying to say it is shaky.  :-) But the more irrefutable point to be made is that the very methodology of science is prone to flaw, so it cannot be always a reliable proof for truth, and this is one case where such a criticism applies, as we will show, insha'Allah. Why though? Well, because science is principled on *empiricism,* and empiricism is rooted in a methodology of thought known as inductivism, which for anyone who has studied it, is such a inconsequential way of establishing a truth that it is superficial to base truth on it. Why? What is it? Inductivism basically involves making a set number of observations, and from them drawing a conclusion. Like the following: All swans I have ever seen are white, therefore all swans are white. This is inductivism. Now, even though the conclusion may be true, what is important to note is the *way it is argued,* and how flimsy the reasoning is. However, that is not to dismiss it out of sight, for indeed it is valid sometimes, like here: No Europeans have ever lived beyond the age of 150 years. Thus all Europeans are mortal. This is quite sound, even though the method of reasoning is the same. But the difference is that no exceptions have been established, so it is quite *reasonable* to make the conclusion. But herein lies the point. That truths drawn from inductivism, tend not to be definite truths, but *probable* truths, and the reason why this is seen as acceptable, is because the VAST MAJORITY of ones life is built on probable, not definite truths. For instance, you go home and you see your father's briefcase in the hall, so you conclude he must be back from the office. Now, the fact that his briefcase is there is not a *proof* that he's back, for he may have forgotten to take it, or something. But, since nine times out of ten, your conclusions will actually be right, you accept this type of reasoning as sound for the purpose of establishing truth. Many many examples abound. What is crucial, is to identify that the nature of these types of truths is their probability and not the definiteness. But, and here's the thing. Inductivism is an aqli tool, and ahkam [Islamic rules/laws] are NEVER aqli, but rather, naqli. So, the validity of homosexuality can never be argued using inductivism, because for Muslims the aql is not a reference point for an act being right/wrong, good/bad. It is the Shar'iah which makes these value-judgements for us. Now, since the research concerning homosexuality is built on empiricism, it essentially falls prey to what I wrote about inductivism. That they have relied on a set number of observations- in their sample- from which they have inferred generalisations, and these generalisations are projected as The Truth. No. Saying that "we see X% of people have the Doobie gene (my word- copyrighted for its total coolness), and all X% are gay-inclined, thus anyone who has the Doobie gene must be gay-inclined," is no proof that homosexuality is not nurture still. Such reasoning is no different in essence from "All Muslims I've seen are cruel, therefore all Muslims must be cruel.* Just because they were all cruel, does not mean their cruelness was innate, or that it was due to the same reason in every case. What is the strongest proof we have against this research? It is the Book of Allah ta'ala, and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saw). How? Well, why are we Muslims? Because we know for sure, WITH YAQEEN built on objective dalail [evidences] from reality, that this Deen is from Allah (awj). Of this there can be no doubt, except to s/he who is veiled from the Haqq. The *basis* of the Deen (NB: Not the Deen itself- the difference is important to note) is the aql. It is through the use of the aql, pondering over the ayaat [signs] in creation, that one comes to realise that there can be absolutely *no doubt* in this Dunya being created. And through different paths, we each come to the realisation that Islam is indeed the Haqq. And what is more, it is objectively provable. In fact, if we want to be smug, we could say "it stands up to any test of falsification," :-) but I wouldn't say that in reality (I was just enjoying the irony) for to say that is to render Islam a Deen which is bulit on scientific proof, and it isn't. So, since we know that Islam is true, then if the Kitab and Sunnah make homosexuality haram, coupled with the fact that Allah ta'ala does not account us for that which is outside our control (e.g. I am not accountable for breathing, for it is beyond my control), then how could it be that homosexuality is outside our free-will, i.e. we have no choice in being gay- and worse, we were CREATED that way, and yet Allah ta'ala is now going to punish us for it!!!! Could it be?! No way! This is an insult to Allah (swt) and His (awj) Rasul (saw). There's no way homosexuality can be pre-disposed, for it undermines a tenet of our belief! To accept such research is tantamount to accepting that Allah ta'ala is going to punish someone for something they had no choice in, and could not control. Subhan'Allah. As soon as a Muslim accedes to the findings of such research s/he must necessarily acknowledge a flaw in Islam. Which may have been possible to envisage if the basis of the Deen is not provable objectively, but alhamdulillah, it is. Never will such research be allowed to take root in the mind of this Ummah, wallahu ta'ala a'lam. So you see akhi, the way to deal with the issue is to bring the argument round to the aqeedah, not to get embroiled in messy circular issues of naturality. One final point Brother Nadeem. The homosexuals I was recently discussing with were mighty snide. I found that they could never address the points I raised, and instead- always a sign of insincerity- whenever they were wrong-footed, they would have recourse to some new line of reasoning. The approach they took with me was to say that homosexuality is not an ethical/moral issue, but that since the new European Community Law enshrines the right to be homosexual on an equal footing with the rights that heterosexuals enjoy, that it being wrong/right no longer matters, since it is LEGAL, and that is all that matters now. What a cop-out I told them. If that is your reasoning, that homosexuality is alright because it is now legal, then why when it was illegal did you not acquiesce to the law?? Why did you oppose the law? Such is democracy. They tried a number of other tactics to bolster their defiance, all to no avail, alhamdulillah. In the end, I never gave them a reason to hate Islam, other than their existing tunnel-vision, and their closed-minded island of a world where they dismiss the whole Deen al-Fitrah using their superficial little window of sexuality. Subhan'Allah, It is like rejecting medicine just because you don't like the colour of the bottle! What foolishness is greater than this? I have my whole debate with them stored on disk, and if it will help you brother, can cut-and-paste it to you. To their credit, these people were not stupid (in the intellectual sense). They brought rationale beyond rhetoric, which took more than the soundbites employed by some of our more, shall we say, "emotional" brothers, of "eww, homosexuality is filthy you dirty *^Ł$%, what's wrong with you??" (not a real quote, but an idea of the types of statements I am alluding to)  I'm still reeling at the depth of that one. Can't figure out why all the gays didn't rush to take the Shahadah. ;-) I look upon it as solid learning experience in the field of da'wah, which bi'ithnillah exposed me to some of the ways such people argue, so I am better equipped and thus prepared, in the future, and perhaps one day Allah ta'ala will make our discussion a means for them embracing Islam, insha'Allah ta'ala. The exchanges we had were never personal, nor did they descend into emotion and name-calling, etc. I viewed it as an opportunity to learn their wolrdview better, and convey ours as best I could, and every tawfeeq is by the help of Allah (swt). One other point of note Brother. We are not here to "cuss" kuffar. This is not about putting them down, but about us pleasing Allah ta'ala. Make sure your da'wah is not a cause of the scales weighing against you, due to the usloob [style] and wasail [means] you adopted in your da'wah towards kuffar. We should always be exemplar, in our words and deeds, when giving daw'ah, and you need to be mindful of whether your words to these homosexuals will give them an excuse against you on the Day of Judgement, by the impression you gave them of Islam and Muslims. I am not admonishing you, and may Allah (awj) grant you felicity in your da'wah with them. It is just that sometimes, our disgust with kufr dictates our approach to kaffir, and this is wrong, Islamically. Even though homosexuality is haram, that does not justify Muslims who meet homosexuals, insulting them, attacking them, intimidating them, and the like. I am not here referring to the piercing and painful realisation that the burhan al-aqli [intellectual proof] can bring to one who has denied it for so long, but rather, the unislamic attitude of many Muslims who when they meet kuffar who engage in kufr, cannot control their behaviour and words, and end up disgracing the Deen even though they had a sincere niyyah [intention]. During my debate, I was often saddened to feel that I had to apologise for the remarks some of the Muslims were coming out with, which reflected more their lack of understanding of Islam, than their disgust with homosexuality. Sometimes me siding with Islam by putting out a reminder for adab was perceived as siding against the Muslims. But I always told those Brothers that whilst Muslims might often be wrong, Islam never is, and my wara [loyalty] is always to Allah (awj) and His (awj) Messenger (saw), even if it means being at odds with other Muslims. It was sad to have to contend with Muslims who did not know how to give da'wah, and felt their zeal was sufficient in justifying their approach. Too many of us seem to interpret adab as meaning we are lacking firmness, or that we are tolerating kufr, or being conciliatory. No. I gave the following example to one of the homsexuals: "Were you my neighbour and had you built a shed on land which was legally mine, the injustice I felt, would not, Islamically, be sufficient for me to determine my attitude towards you. I hope you can realise the point being made via analogy. I know that some Muslims, based on their stance towards homosexuality, use that as their basis to justify some of the unjustifiable and unislamic behaviour manifested (e.g. insults, intimidation), but it is unwarranted, Islamically. Wallahu a'lam [and Allah knows best]." We should always also remember that it is Islam which dictates the value-judgements on actions, i.e. are they good or bad. So we should not infect that with our own personal subjective opinions on the matter, which have nothing to do with Islam. That homosexuality is haram is a hukm which I as a Muslim submit to, and embrace wholeheartedly. It is the 'amr [command] of Allah ta'ala. But that is far removed, say, from some Neo-Nazi who hates gays for aqli [rational] reasons. Likewise too many Muslims, bring the baggage of their jahiliyyah days, to their understanding and portrayal of this Deen. Often it is apparent from the way they argue with these people (i.e. homosexuals) that they are coming from an aqli perspective more than the naqli one, wallahu a'lam. For they say things about homosexuality which is clearly unrelated to the hukm, and merely reflects their personal investment in the issue. But the kuffar don't separate the two, for they know no better. It would be pertinent to ask many such Muslims, "Before you became interested in Islam, and started practicing, what was your view of homosexuality?" And if they say that they opposed it even then, to find out on what grounds. And then see how close their reasons are to the Islamic basis. Many is the time that I have found even practicing Muslims using unislamic aqli arguments to explain away the hukm of Allah ta'ala, with no grounds whatsoever for doing so. Just like when I see Muslims who insult rulers beyond the kufr that they implement. So they will call such-and-such female Muslim leader a bitch, a'uzubillah. What has that got to do with the matter in hand? The point is that as Muslims there are many many things in this world which outrage us. But if lack the maturity to confront those situations in a manner which facilitates the da'wah, then so many opportunities will be lost. And it is on our shoulders to carry this Deen. So don't mistake your weakness as their insincerity. Just because they don't accept your words, does not always and immediately mean they are stubborn or insincere to the Truth. It may have had more to do with *how* you said it rather than what you said. Recently I met an atheist online who had some questions about Islam. He is now about to take Shahadah, alhamdulillah. Often when we met, other  Muslims were engaged in fitnah "around" us, and I was worried it might impact him negatively. Later he admitted to me that he had expected to be received with suspicion and derision, but on the contrary, we were so warm and welcoming, that he immediately felt a natural kinship with us. Even then, some of the Muslims, when they first saw his questions, leapt at him like piranhas. And to some extent I could empathise, since many kuffar have come and pretended to be sincere, only to launch into attack and insult. Even then, I always caution myself not to let the example of the past be my witness to the possibility of the future, and with this guy, even though some of his questions might have seemed provocative at first, his genuine nature shone through, and by the Grace and Hidaayah of Allah (swt) he is on the brink of becoming Muslim now. So, let us always be ambassadors for this Deen, and not allow notions of non-compromise, and being frank with the truth, to confuse us into thinking adab is not necessary. I remind myself first and foremost. If anything I said was improper or misrepresented Islam, then know it was due to me, my ignorance and unlearnedness,. Only the Haqq is from Allah (swt). Abu Khaled

Re: articles against homosexuality
Saleema
10/09/00 at 19:46:30
Assalamoalykum, Cool, Abu Khalid. I am studying Inductive/Deductive arguments, modal logic, fallacies,etc, etc, and all the other good stuff. For my debate, me and my opponent, were given homosexuality as one of the subjects to argue on but I said no becuase i am just sick of this subject and wanted something even more controversial and so we picked Attributes of God and the problem of evil. Right now i am researching and reading. its cool. i am really excited.  :)  Dawah oppertunity to my opponent! I was dissapointed though when my professor chose what side of debate I should take. He totally gave me the unislamic point of view on the Attributes of God. He is Iraninan (i don't know if Muslim, although, his name is Ali. I think he may be your "secular muslim" type.) Well, anyway, his rule is that he gives the person the argument contrary to their beliefs. He says it help with one's debate skills more better that way becaue you have to work harder and have to go against your intuitions. I am not worried about beating the guy. That's a piece of cake because even though he is taking the more Islamic point on Attributes of God, he is still using the Judeo-Christian point of view and that has some major flaws in it. I can slam his arguments with using my arguments which are *ver* far removed from Islam. (I seriously believe that this is what causes so many atheists and agnostics in the western society-this whole "perception" of God.) Anyway, what I am worried about is, do you think it is haram for me to argue from such a point of view? My intent on taking this calss for the sole reason to (1) to sharpen my debating/dialouge skills for Dawah purposes. (2) for Journalism/political reasons. I am talking debte/speech but that sharpens your speaking/handling of emotions skills more than the use of logic in arguments. Everytime I read or practice on my upcoming debate, I always pray and recite "I seek refuge in Allah from the Shaitan." Remember what you told me about ibn Tamymia? (gosh, i can never spell his name right). PLEASE DON'T DISSAPEAR AGAIN!! DO RESPONS AS THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I SERIOUSLY NEED SOME ADVISE ON. wassalam

Re: articles against homosexuality
chachi
10/11/00 at 13:38:12
i don't think it's wrong to consider the converse arguments because rationality is only partly dependent on proof some of it is attitude eg even if you prove to an atheist that prayer works he'll still never believe it but will keep looking for something contrary to that evidence it's whats in the heart that makes you change views

Re: articles against homosexuality
Harisa
10/30/00 at 23:37:34
I think it's wrong to judge homosexuals...leave that up to Allah......

Re: articles against homosexuality
Kashif
10/31/00 at 07:25:36
assalaamu alaikum Sister Harisa, The issue today isn't to leave homosexuals alone and not say anything disapproving of them because "no one can judge except Allah" for the simple reason that He has already judged them - in His own words and upon the tongue of His Messenger `alaihis-salaatu was-salaam. Allah says (the translation) in Surah 26: 160. The prople of Lot (those who dwelt in the towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers. 161. When their brother Lout (Lot) said to them: "Will you not fear Allâh and obey Him? 162. "Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you. 163. "So fear Allâh, keep your duty to Him, and obey me. 164. "No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message of Islâmic Monotheism), my reward is only from the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). 165. "Go you in unto the males of the 'Alamîn (mankind), 166. "And leave those whom Allâh has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a transgressing people!" 167. They said: "If you cease not. O Lout (Lot)! Verily, you will be one of those who are driven out!" 168. He said: "I am, indeed, of those who disapprove with severe anger and fury your (this evil) action (of sodomy). 169. "My Lord! Save me and my family from what they do." 170. So We saved him and his family, all, 171. Except an old woman (his wife) among those who remained behind. 172. Then afterward We destroyed the others. 173. And We rained on them a rain (of torment). And how evil was the rain of those who had been warned. 174. Verily, in this is indeed a sign, yet most of them are not believers. 175. And verily! Your Lord, He is indeed the All-Mighty, the Most Merciful. The Messenger said: "Whoever you find committing the sin of the people of Lut (Lot), kill them, both the one who does it and the one to whom it is  done" - i.e. if it is done with consent. (This hadeeth was narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan, 1376) ~~~ Allah's judgement which *the Qur'an* tells us is that they were destroyed for the sin of homosexuality. And some say that they received one of the worst - if not _the_ worst - punishments from Allah that ever came to a people. You see, if you can't say that homosexuals are wrong, even though the Qur'an says so, then where do you stop? Do you say that that adultery isn't wrong either? because after all its among consenting adults isn't it? And if you're going to go that far, then what use is the Book of Allah as a source of guidance? Kashif Wa Salaam

Re: articles against homosexuality
saifullah
10/31/00 at 13:47:55
As-salaamu alaikum. First I'd like to say, Abu Khaled, that was quite a comprehensive discussion, I am glad you wrote it up. I belive some people may have missed Abu Khaled's point. It is not to leave homosexuals alone and to think they are ok, it is to approach the problem of Homosexuality in a 'naqli' way. Also to always observe the correct islamic etiquette at any point in time, for ones own self, and for the sake of the person you are speaking too. If a muslim comes to you and says, he is having homosexual feelings, then you dont curse him and tell him Allah (swt) is going to banish him to hell. This is a desire he must defeat, and must not act upon. By us alienating this muslim we are furthering him from Islam, performing reverse dawah. We need to call peole to Islam, not to push them away, which happens too often unfortunately. So just keep in mind that as a muslim you must ACT like a muslim should act, and not transgress bounds, whereas it may seem the other person has transgressed. wa salaamu alaikum
NS

Re: articles against homosexuality
Anonymous
11/15/00 at 12:59:34
salam wa alaykum                   I ahve no intention to oofend anybody but i would like to know why                 islam is so against homosexuality. after all God put these peopel on this                 earth like this so why are teh muslims rejecting them. please answer my                 question if possible. thanks

Re: articles against homosexuality
bhaloo
11/15/00 at 13:28:15
slm God did not put these people on the earth like this.  Homosexuals want you to believe that.  Homosexuals are like this because they chose to be homosexuals.  I know ABC News did a study on this before, and came to the conclusion that homosexuals weren't born that way (its not in the genes).  I had mentioned the article on the other board, and perhaps in here somewhere else, if you are really interested I can look up the information from this study done by ABC News.
NS

Re: articles against homosexuality
Saleema
11/15/00 at 13:50:54
Assalamoalykum, bhaloo I am interested. :) Wassalam

Re: articles against homosexuality
Malika
11/15/00 at 15:30:27
Assalamu Alaikum Anonymous, If God put these people on earth "like that" then why did he punish those people "like that" that came before us?  In all revelations that Allah(swt) sent down did he say homosexuality was normal and OK?  You won't find that, what you will find is that he told of the destruction that befell the people because they were "like that".

Re: articles against homosexuality
maryam
11/15/00 at 19:30:13
Assalam Alikum, Adding to what all the other sister and brothers have said on homosexuality, I always use the following logic: Isn't there also a gene that indicates people who have a predisposition of being violent? Well why should they get penalized for committing serious crimes such as murder? Shouldn't we just say that Allah made them that way, and it is okay for them to do whatever they wish? What about Pedophiles and Rapists? They also claim not being able to "help" themselves. Anonymous, don't be fooled, the logic behind these issues are not very diffent (Or at least in my opinion they're not). I think the arguement that homosexuals were "born" gay is one without basis. Wassalam

Re: articles against homosexuality
Harisa
11/15/00 at 20:55:13
I dont think any of you should be claiming that homesexuals are that way because they chose to be that way....what studies have u done...and what do u have to back this up????? dont use your opinions as facts look into Psychology....u will find that at the age the children go through gender identity...affects how they see themselves in their later life...and psychologists say this is could be a cause for homosexuality if u want more info on this ... i can email it to u lol alrighty take care and i think it would be better to stay off the homosexuality issue

Carts before horses
AbuKhaled
11/16/00 at 12:48:27
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Sister Harisa, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. With respect, but it seems apparent that you have not read this thread through attentively, else you would not say what you have, because you couldn't, in the face of what has been written in contradiction to you, given it's sheer weight in terms of strength of reasoning. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means let us begin. Just don't presume our ignorance before you've interacted with our reasoning. Either you've not read what the other brothers/sisters and myself have written so far, or you have failed to understand it. Because thus far what you've written is not only insufficient to act as a counterweight against what we've said up till now, but it is also weaker than other arguments I've come across by proponents of the same view as yourself. But before you do, I have some questions for you: 1. Who told you psychology is a proof? What is the basis upon which psychological studies are built, and is that basis probative? You will find, as with most natural & social sciences which function according to the Western paradigm, it's basis is empiricism (that's a generalisation). Now, no one who is at all familiar with empiricism could claim it is a probative force in establishing definite fact, when it is comon knowledge that the truths established by it are usually (not always) probable rather than definitive. I'm assuming that since you've said what you've said, you know what I am talking about, and just disagree, rather than not knowing about it and still making your claims in the absence of such essential knowledge. 2. Your own assertion above undermines the point you're trying to make, rather than strengthen it. Because if we- for the sake of argument, rather than because you are right- accept your claim, that gender identity is a possible cause for homosexuality, then it implies two things: a) That it is nurture, rather than nature, because the way people see themselves is a matter of perception, and perception is subjective to external factors de jure, whereas genetic pre-disposition isn't. That, ironically confirms what has preceded you in this entire thread in opposition to your supposition. Because how such children see themselves is an outcome of societal conditioning, according to psychology. b) That such studies provide an alternative explanation to the recent supposed discovery of it being genetic pre-disposition, which also undermines it being without choice. 3. I think it would be better for *you* to back away from this issue because it is obvious that your view is ill-founded and one-sided. If you can tell *me* what my argument is built on, then maybe I'll accept you have conducted an objective investigation of some worth into this question. But for you to assert that our opinions aren't fact merely confirms that you are not clued up about the way we reason this matter. Please don't make presumptions about people you don't know here, for by virtue of that you further cannot know what we have done and what we haven't by way of investigation. I personally have debated plenty of homosexuals, so am sufficiently familiar with the different hypotheses they forward in defence of their sexual orientation. But you, not knowing me, could not know that, so how you could cast doubt on our insight into this issue is beyond me. If you wish to bring us your best evidences, do so, but know that my first question will be concerning the *basis* and *methodology of reasoning* upon which it is founded. It won't matter how good the content is, if it's foundation is weak, so too will the conclusions be. So please, save yourself the time, and do your research soundly, for it will be scrutinised and dissected in detail. Before looking to anything else, the premises will be sought, and then examined. And if flaws are detected- bi'ithnillah- they will be raised. By the way, the aim here is not to win an argument, or one-upmanship. I couldn't care less about that. This is not some academic exercise for us. Nor is it personal. It is about the haqq [truth]. And tawfeeq [success] is through Allah (awj) alone. Everything else is doomed to failure. Abu Khaled

Re: articles against homosexuality
h_m_r00
11/16/00 at 14:13:08
Alsalamu Alaykum To all muslims and muslimas out there...If you read the Quran, you would know that muslims can't be homosexuals. I read some studies, and to confirm what some of us knew, most of them said that you are not BORN with it, but it's a person's choice to be homosexual, bi, or just normal. Prophet Mohammed SAWS 's hadith (was mentioned), and so we should all do as it says.I do not mean kill them, but in some way let them know. Some of the people here in the US think that being a homosexual is something genetic!!! Any way, I think that we should respect the people who respect us even if they are homos, after all Prophet Mohammed SAWS said that we should treat other people the way we want to be treated. But at the same time voice your opinion about it if you were asked. I personally think that they are disgusting, and I can't stand seeing anything of that nature happening...                                  Hiyam

Re: articles against homosexuality
Harisa
11/16/00 at 17:45:52
ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAYYYY IS THAT A PERSON DOESNT JUST WAKE UP ONE DAY AND SAY TO HIM/HERSELF  HEY IM GONNA BE A HOMOSEXUAL FROM NOW ON AND AS FAR AS THE PSYCHOLOGY GOES...I DIDNT SAY THAT WWAS THE REASON...I SAID THAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED AS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES MY POST WAS WRITTEN REGARDING A FEW COMMENTS I SAW THAT SAID THAT THE HOMOSEXUAL CHOSE TO BE HOMOSEXUALS... AND I STRONGLY DISAGREE WIT THAT DO YOU PEOPLE KNOW ANY HOMOSEXUALS?? HAVE U TALKED TO ANY OF THEM??? THEY DONT JUST WAKE UP AND SAY ... HEY IM GONNA BE GAY...WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT THAT WITH THE WAY THEY ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE TREATED BY SOCIETY I DIDNT CLAIM...PSYCHOLOGY WAS THE CAUSE OF HOMOSEXUALITY...I SAID ITS BEEN PRESENTED AS ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES..AND MAYBE NOT IN THESE EXACT WORDS BUT I DIDNT MAKE ANY CLAIMSS THAT THIS WAS IN FACT TRUEEEEEEE THE WHOLE GENDER IDENTITY THING THOUGH MAKES SENSE TO ME ... IM NOT SAYING ITS TRUE.. I HAVE NO PROOF FOR IT JUST AS NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU WHO CLAIM HOMOSEXUALS ARE THAT WAY CUZZ THEY CHOSE TO BE... CAN U PROVE THEY ARE CHOOSING TO BE??? HOW DO U KNOW THERE ISNT SOMETHING ELSE THERE..SOMETHING THEY CANT CONTROL???? ANYWAY I HAVE TO GET GOING P.S. JUST BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS THINKING DOESNT MAKE ME ...STUPID... AIIGHTT TOODLEZZZZZ

Re: articles against homosexuality
Harisa
11/16/00 at 22:55:18
...and psychologists say this is could be a cause for homosexuality i feel that maybe u have misunderstood what i was saying.....and maybe with my grammar mistake up above where i wrote "this is could be"...the "is" shouldnt be there u see..i said the psychologists say this could be a cause..i didnt say it was ..and i didnt say i personally feel it is because i really dont know so i dont see why you are getting so ready to debate because i have nothing to debate..i havent done any of my studies...all i said was for you guys to look into all the possible cases they give thats all i wanted i dont wanna prove to you what the cause is..because i cant...and i dont even know...the psychology was just an example Ok...perhaps now do u get my point?? I'm not saying homosexuality is ok or that it is natural...personally i feel that it is quite unnatural...but thats beyond the point all i wanted you guys to know is that you shouldnt be soo quick to say..they are this way because they chose to be...because i cant see who in their right mind would chose to be that way Ok...has this helped clear anything up???? if not then u may ask questions and i can explain some more alrightyyy i just wanted to make it clear that i didnt claim psychology was the answer... okk lol take care toodles

Re: articles against homosexuality
bhaloo
11/17/00 at 00:05:45
slm [quote] all i wanted you guys to know is that you shouldnt be soo quick to say..they are this way because they chose to be...because i cant see who in their right mind would chose to be that way Ok...has this helped clear anything up???? [/quote] Sister Harisa, the Islamic standpoint is that homosexuals choose to be this way, they are not born this way. Here is what one scholar, Dr. Siddiqi (president of ISNA) said about this: Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption. Like other moral and physical diseases, the sin also increases when it is not checked and corrected. Homosexuality is increasing today because it has a strong lobby and it is granted freedom to corrupt individuals and societies. No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or a murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education. Every soul has a possibility to do good or to do evil. Allah says, "By the soul and what proportion He has given to it. He inspired as to what is its evil and what its good. Truly he succeeds who purifies it and he fails who corrupts it." (al-Shams 91:7-10) Every person thus has a "nafs" (inner self) that incites that person to do evil. ("Surely the human soul is prone to evil…" (Yusuf 12:53). But there is also a "nafs lawwamah" (a reproachful soul) (al-Qiyamah 75:2). When people continue doing evil, they kill their "reproachful soul" and make "the evil soul" dominate them. Thus they cheat, deceive, tell lies, commit murder and theft and do all sorts of evils. Allah sent His prophets to teach people what is right and what is wrong. The prophets showed the right path and inspired people by their good examples. If people follow the prophets of Allah, create a good society and live in the company of good people, the goodness and virtue will increase and more and more people will live good and pious life. If people turn away from the teachings of the prophets of Allah, allow evils to propagate in their societies and live in the company of evil people, the sin and corruption will increase in the world. According to the Islamic teachings, we do not believe that homosexuality or any other sin such as murder, rape or theft are biological problems. Allah has created all people according to the Fitrah (pure and good nature). It is their environment that corrupts them. There is a debates going on for several years in America about homosexuality whether it is an orientation or a preference. There is no consensus on this issue. More than 80 per cent of the people in America and 95 per cent of the people of the world still believe that it is immoral and has nothing to do with the biology of a person. However, homosexuals have a strong lobby and they are working very hard to have this evil recognized and accepted as a normal behavior. It is a shame that some Muslims are also in their trap. They are imitating the non-believers in every thing. The Prophet -peace be upon him- predicted about such people, "if others enter a lizard's hole, you would also enter it…" May Allah protect us and our youth from this evil. A true Muslim must never commit this sin. It is absolutely forbidden (haram) in Islam. It can never be accepted in Islam as an acceptable way of life. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexual behavior leads to the destruction of family life. Allah has mentioned in the Qur'an that the People of Prophet Lot were involved in homosexuality. Their deeds are called "khaba'ith" (the most dirty acts). Allah's curse came upon them and they were destroyed by fire and brimstone. May Allah protect us from this and all other evils.

Re: articles against homosexuality
h_m_r00
11/20/00 at 14:30:23
Salaam Harisa...SMILE :) :) :) :) :) Ok now...yes I personally have talked to homosexuals and yes it is their choice to be that way. We all have the urge to be, and the difference of the homosexuals is that they listen to it...does that make more sense?...                                        Hiyam

Re: articles against homosexuality
Saleema
11/20/00 at 16:49:26
We all have the urge to be whao...... no way. I have never had such an urge thank Allah. wassalam

Re: articles against homosexuality
kiwi25
11/20/00 at 21:56:25
assalamu aliakum, well harisa if ur still with us and unretired ur retirement, then personnally i do think that homosexuals chose to be that, Allah (SWT) gave us many choices in life and thats what they chose, and since they choose homosexuality and since they can help themsleves then they have the power to choose not to be a homosexual, i hope im making my slef clear, like u want a to marry and u can choose whomsoever u want (under certain limits of course) the same way a homosexual gets to choose whomsoever they want, i have talked to homosexuals before, theyre in my school, and theyre proub of being a homosexual because they said they have the right TO CHOOSE what they want to be, its not up to the pychologists to say weather this or this because Allah (SWT) has allready given us an answer, inshallah u understand what im saying, and for hiyam alhumdulilah i have also never had the urge and no true muslim should, wsalam nouha:)
NS

Re: articles against homosexuality
Sara
11/20/00 at 22:28:06
I DON'T CARE WHAT NOBODY THINKS!!! Homosexuality is the most GROSSEST thing that I ever heard of. Isn't this a sin????? Won't Allah be angry with those that are gay????????? It's just GROSS!!!! Now if somebody came up to me and said they were "born" like that. I would just laugh in their face. That is one of their many lies that they use.

Re: articles against homosexuality
Jenna
12/11/00 at 18:56:22
Asalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa barakatu  Subhan'Allah Allah Ta'aala created people with a free will.....This is known throughout many religions....He Created us with a will to choose what we want to do with our lives.  No I dont think that poeple wake up and say "I want to be a Homosexual" I think that people get into that for multiple reasons.......  Homosexuality all started with Sodom and Gommorah.....  We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (Surah 7 Ayah 80)  Allah Ta'aala did not create "Homosexuals" he created us to have a free will over our lives....There are reasons (Although it does not make it right) why Homosexuals do what they do......But it is wrong to say that they cant control what they do......Subhan'Allah Allah wouldnt make something uncontrolable and then Punish those people......Whomever thinks that is wrong. It would mean that Allah is unfair, mean, and very very cruel..........And that is something that Allah ISNT! Narrated Ibn Abbas (ra)  The Prophet (saw) said "If you find anyone doing the deed of Lot's poeple, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it was done; and if you find anyone having sexual intercoure with an animal, kill him and kill the animal. (Ahmad) So when our commandment came, We turned the town of Somdom upside down, and rained on them stones of baked clay, piled up. (Surah 11 Ayah 82)  Yes there are many reasons as to why people choose Homosexuality but that doesnt make it right!!  We have a FREE WILL!!  Homosexuality is Immoral and against Islam and Other religions...Read the bible looooooool But people even Kaffir dont like to obey their books so they justify it as "God Created us this way" Lailaha IllAllah They just dont want to take responsiilty for there own actions.......Even in the bible it talks about Soddom and Gommorah as does our Holy Book (The Quran).........Think about it?????  And remember we as humans have a FREE WILL!!!! Jenna

Re: articles against homosexuality
Rashid
12/11/00 at 20:59:27
bsm salaam to all: [quote]DO YOU PEOPLE KNOW ANY HOMOSEXUALS?? HAVE U TALKED TO ANY OF THEM[/quote] Yes, right before Ramadan started i was having a discussion with a lesbian.  It was really disturbing, because she was saying that homosexuality is normal and that she couldn't understand why everyone wasn't gay!  I said "because humanity would cease to exist, there wouldn't be anymore procreation" She said "no, there wouldn't be anymore sexism or gender roles, gender roles are the enemy"  so basically she is coming from the liberal feminist point of view.  I asked her "are homosexuals born or made?" she replied "i dunno, but i've always had attraction towards women" This is the reality in college campuses all over.  And then she asked me "you believe we're all gonna burn in hell right?"  i said "Allah is very clear on that, unless you give that up, that's what's gonna happen"  So see, I wasn't all "i hate you, die, you sinner, etc" We should invite to the way of our lord with wisdom and clear evidence

Re: articles against homosexuality
jannah
12/11/00 at 23:51:18
slm I think in talking to ppl who think they are homosexual you should also mention that you feel that it is their *choice* --that lifestyle. So she doesn't feel that you think she is going to Hell on something she can't control or "is born with". In psychology you learn that you cannot talk people out of believing what they believe. She may really believe she is born with this prediliction.. Instead of arguing with her on that you can take the route of saying, well everyone is predisposed with desires, we all are fighting our innate desires (nafs) towards greed, zinna, etc but we fight them and indluge them in the proper right ways, since our Lord knows better than us.  So just like committing an act of zinna is haram, so is committing a homosexual act. so we should do everything to keep ourselves away from these sins and channel our desires.
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