Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/13/00 at 00:08:14 |
| slm Time.com is running a poll on "Who's Most to Blame for Mideast Crisis?". Considering the amount of biased articles that Time has been posting, everyone please take the 3 seconds of time to vote in this poll!!!! Here's the link: http://www.time.com/time/daily/poll/0,2637,mideast,00.html |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Sara |
| 10/13/00 at 20:06:10 |
| I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY PEOPLE BLAME THE PALESTIANS! |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Asim |
| 10/13/00 at 23:43:25 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, When I checked yesterday it was even like 43-43%. Today 64% blame Palestinians. Just a reflection of how effective the media is. |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| bhaloo |
| 10/14/00 at 01:25:57 |
| slm yeah it was about even yesterday, earlier today it was like 72% palestine, 28% israel, and just now it says 58% palestine, 41% israel. its getting closer to half and half. |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/20/00 at 16:01:29 |
| Assalamoalykum, strange. i wanted to check up on the poll to see if the numbers have changed or not. Guess what? there is no such poll anymore. When the numbers started to be even, they took it off. wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Kashif |
| 10/20/00 at 18:18:36 |
| assalaamu alaikum Look brothers and sisters, forget this poll and forget that poll. It is worth nothing - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Can anyone explain to me how a poll changes anything? If the Western masses hear stats like "120 Palestinians killed & 5 Israelis dead - the Palestinians are to blame" and STILL believe that the Palestinians are the terrorists, then no poll will change the opinion of anybody - it won't do a single thing to help us. And this Time poll is just another classic case of Muslim gullibility, and how far behind the Jews we are towards reviving an ummah practically. Some clever Jew sat down, wrote and executed a script on his server that updates the count against the Palestinians every couple of seconds. Now compare that to the Muslim response. Is there any comparison? WAKE UP O UMMAH! My dear brothers and sisters, do not let yourself be sidetracked by online polls and online petitions. Heed the advice of Sh. Safar al-Hawali [quote]Save your salaries, [restrict] your spending and [do not waste] your time, for we stand before a large, barbaric enemy. The battle [that is in front of us] is not one of victor or defeated, but rather one of existence or extermination.[/quote] Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 13:54:23 |
| Assalamoalykum, No Kashif, a poll doesn't stop the killings in Palestine, but it does educated those who come on the site to read and stuff. Americans live off of poles. So many decisions are made based on the results of polls. If people see that pregnecies have gone down among teens 55 percent, they get really happy. When that is not the case at all and the people didn't achieve anything. but the masses believe that the world is actually becoming a better place-for teens in the US anyway. If the poll would have been left there showing the Isrealis were to blame, then people reading it would have actually believed that the Israelis are to blame and that is why they took the poll off! wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Kashif |
| 10/21/00 at 17:57:42 |
| assalaamu alaikum [quote]If the poll would have been left there showing the Israelis were to blame, then people reading it would have actually believed that the Israelis are to blame [color=Red]and that is why they took the poll off![/color] [/quote] (my emphasis) Sister Saleema, you have, in your own words, proved my point that signing these petitions is futile. Thank You. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 18:43:04 |
| Assalamoalykum, You aren't welcome. because it isn't futile! We just won over two Americans who were pro-israel and now they are anti-israel. Two people that I know. We need to mix our voices of protest with theirs and we can get somewhere with that. Wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/21/00 at 19:21:19 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Kashif, brother, you have not spent any part of your life living in America. You have no first-hand experience with how the people over here think, react, feel, or behave. Yes, the British and the Americans have alot in common, but they are very different people in many respects. Polls do have an impact. They do make a difference. No, they will not get the Israelis out of Palestine tomorrow! But the fact of the matter is that the more popular media polls, such as CNN, or Time or Newsweek, are definitely something that an American layman follows. And their perceptions and reactions do change because of them. Brother, I suggest you give the activists in the United States some benefit of doubt, that having lived here for a long time, and having interacted with the American public for so long, they have at least some idea of what they are doing! Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 19:37:41 |
| Assalamoalykum, Thank you Arsalan! It makes me very angry that my efforts are looked down and sneered down upon by those who claim that these are in vain and futile. I am risking my reputation with students and faculty at school, i'm in danger of possibly being aleniated, by Muslims as well, and people are telling me that my petty efforts are in vain. Do you know how hard it is to stand up in front of people who are pro-israel and make a speech against them? But its worth the effort becuse by the end of a speech hearts are softened and 1 or two even won over. I don't know how things work in the UK and Britain, but here its different. I have read some of the British newspapers and i was disgusted at their mode of thinking and our US newspaper are so much better. Aside from that, I don't know much about what goes on in the UK and Britian, but the newspapers gave me enough of an idea. The governement system is a lot different too. Over here, I have never heard of "Paki hunting." But I have read about them that they take place in European countries. According to you then Kashif, writing in support of Robert Fisk would be futile too. I sent your mail to someone who I know who has contacts with the scholars and activists over in the US and guess what? The AMA e-mailed all of its members and told them to write in support of him. Well, if you don't want us to waste our times, then please don't tell us to write letters in support of anyone, whether he is doing good for the Muslims or not. Becuase the ultimate decision lies with the zionists and their dogs. wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Kashif |
| 10/21/00 at 20:05:03 |
| assalaamu alaikum [quote]you have not spent any part of your life living in America. You have no first-hand experience with how the people over here think, react, feel, or behave. [/quote] *I* think you're basing your argument on a false premise. Just because i don't live in America doesn't mean that i can't criticise something that people over there are doing. If you believe such an argument holds true, then it must also hold true that i can't tell a brother to be patient when his mother dies because my mother hasn't died. It also means that i can't give advice to a brother who has divorced because i haven't divorced, it also means ...... And akhee, look at what you are saying. When the public sees with their own eyes, footage of a 12 yr old kid being killed, and they hear stats such as 140 Palestinians killed VS 7 Israelis killed, and that STILL doesn't convince them of the reality of what is happening, what will a poll do? [In the end, after x thousands of Muslims voted, it only took a few clever Jews with their own server to unhinge the whole thing] And by Saleema's own admission when too many people voted to condemn the Israelis, what happened? they pulled the poll off of their web-site. Do you seriously think that polls that condemn Israel are going to be publicised in the national media - the JEWISH/ZIONIST controlled media? [quote]We just won over two Americans who were pro-israel and now they are anti-israel. Two people that I know.[/quote] Question. Did you win them over by knocking them with the stats from the Time poll, or by having a real discussion with them? [quote]Brother, I suggest you give the activists in the United States some benefit of doubt, that having lived here for a long time, and having interacted with the American public for so long, they have at least some idea of what they are doing![/quote] So you don't want me to criticise the fact that x thousand Muslims voted on the poll, and the poll was plugged when it became clear that the Israelis were getting a drubbing and that in the end the result was nil? PS I'm interested in knowing, are the results of these online polls published in the magazine itself? Because if they are, i wonder if they'll print the result of this one. PSS Sr Saleema, i think you're getting your wires crossed. I criticised the usefulness of _polls_ If you have the ability & opportunity to stand up and _speak_ to an audience, i'm 100% behind you. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 20:19:26 |
| Assalamoalykum, As far as premises go and logic, Arsalan is still right. This type of reasoning is called Inductive reasoning and Arsalan's argument is more closer to Logic than yours. For example: Sure you can tell a brother to be patient if his mother has died and that doesn't mean that you don't know what patience is because your mother hasn't. Things are easier said than done. When the brother who tells his friend to be patient, he really won't know how hard it is to be patient until he goes through the same experience himself. And when he does, it won't be the same exact experience as his friend went through because each individual is different and feels and handles thing differently according to his environment and the past experiences he has gone through and in this case also his faith. In inductive reasoning, whoever has the stronget claim wins and that is the action people consider rather than the weaker argument which can be also true. Strong inductive agrument vs weak inductive argument. You decide which one you want to take. I will go with Arsalan's. And what about Robert Fisk? Isnt' that futile? And I did point out the strange poll incident to them. So everything that i told them helped in winning them over. Hitler didn't have blue eyes or blod hair, nor was he very tall and yet he wanted a tall, blond haired, blue-eyed race. The people weren't blind. they could see his physical appearance. Ahmad Ghulam, the apostate who played havoc with the people in India and Pakistan, he was a bigger idiot than Hitler. Still he has many followers reading his contradictory aoutobiographies and still they don't question him or the beliefs. None of his prophesies ever came true, still people think he was a prophet. The human being is a very dynamic creature. There are so many things we don't understand about ourselves yet with all the technology and science. Look at Christians, they are brainswashed too. People would rather burn their houses down than leave their prejudices. Bacon said that, something similar to it anyway. wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 20:23:07 |
| Assalamoalykum, No one publishes the polls, they are anounced on TV sometimes or quoted by journalists. many people go to these sites, they are quite popular. wassalam |
| Re: POLL: Who's Most to Blame for the Mideast Crisis |
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| Kashif |
| 10/21/00 at 20:49:57 |
| assalaamu alaikum Sister Saleema, i criticised the usefulness of polls - and that is quite different to the issue of writing in support of Fisk. Fisk is a world-reknowned journalist for his work in exposing the reality of the Middle East. Is Time known for being unbiased? The poll was a farce in and of itself. It didn't even have IP tracking, i.e. ppl could vote more than once - what does that tell you about its accuracy? (cf. what i wrote above). But that is all secondary. My opinion on the usefulness of polls has nothing to do with supporting a journalist. I can't believe that telling people the figures from a "strange" poll helped in making them change their minds. _IF_ it did, then that kinda puts an end to your claim that it helps educate people who come to the site and stuff. A poll helps educate people? Sounds more like "lets go with the majority cos we're sheep without a shepherd." Reading and talking and opening their eyes is what educates people - NOT following an opinion because thats what the majority of people do. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| THE ELUSIVE SEARCH FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 10/24/00 at 06:23:10 |
| ====================================================================== EDITORIAL: THE ELUSIVE SEARCH FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST [By Mohamed Elmasry, KW Record, October 12, 2000] ====================================================================== The recent Palestinian Intifada and the brutal force used by Israel in trying to halt it are both symptoms of one basic issue: that achieving justice is a precondition to achieving peace and security for everyone. And the sad fact is that Israel, holding the key for establishing justice in the region, has not yet recognized the need for a courageous approach of healing and reconciliation towards the Palestinians, all Palestinians. Palestinians everywhere paid, and are still paying dearly, for the successful fulfillment of the Zionist dream of creating a Jewish state. Their only crime was that they happened to be in Palestine when the Zionist movement and European powers chose Palestine to be a homeland for the Jews. The 1917 Balfour Declaration committed Britain to "facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." Palestinians were never consulted. Today, vast numbers displaced by the Palestinian Diaspora are still denied their right to return. And Palestinians living in the occupied West bank and Gaza, surrounded by heavily-armed Jewish settlers, have no hope for a better future, with or without a peace process. The recent Intifada brings to mind the images of the late 1980s uprising: Palestinian youth fighting for liberation against heavily armed occupation forces in the occupied territories. The two Intifada are characterized by a massive grassroots mobilization and opposition to military rule, and both encountered equally massive and violent suppression by the Israeli occupation forces. But the recent Al Aqsa Intifada -- as named by Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims -- has highlighted (not for the first time, unfortunately) the miserable conditions and hopelessness of Palestinians living in Israel. Although they are a sizable minority of one million (about 20% of the population), they suffered, and still suffer, from extensive discrimination. They receive less than their share of government funds, have had much of their land confiscated, and are permanent suspects in the eyes of the authorities. No Palestinian, in the 52 years of Israel's existence, has served as a cabinet minister. Sewage in many Arab villages flows down the streets in open gutters; the schools are in a sorry state, and the curriculum, when it addresses Arab identity and national history, is both biased and humiliating. This writer visited the Arab town of Kafr Qasem in 1995 and was horrified by the condition of services there, compared to any Jewish town in Israel. The Israeli citizens of Kafr Qasem are funding, with their taxes, a ministry of absorption that has, over the past decade, brought to Israel almost a million Jews from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia, with an openly declared goal of reinforcing the Jewish majority. For the last 50 years, Israeli governments, with the help of the U.S., have addressed the issue of Israel’s security and ignored the related issue of justice toward Palestinians. And for the last 100 years, Jewish settlers of Palestine have annexed land, built armed settlements, evicted original Arab owners and terrorized populations. In the process, they built the modern powerful state of Israel, with a mighty army and nuclear capability. Even today Israeli Jews must spend more than 10% of their adult lives serving in the army and learning that the native Palestinians, other Arabs and Muslims, in that order, are their enemies. They are told that it is the birthright of Jews anywhere in the world to become Israeli citizens, but not so for Palestinians who fled the country en masse in 1948. Thus, establishing justice for Palestinians is a necessary precondition for establishing peace and security for everyone. And real security can only be attained through the goodwill of all of Israeli’s neighbors, specially the Palestinians. Even the peace process reflects a divergence from the real issue and does not recognize the true nature of the conflict, a struggle between indigenous people and armed settlers. And, contrary to popular wisdom, ignoring the nature of this conflict does not benefit Israel. For how long will Israeli Jews -- some themselves the children of European Jews oppressed under the Nazi regime -- be able to live with the fact that they and their children are now the oppressors? For how long can Israelis live suspecting their neighbors to be enemies? In contrast to most other cases of armed settlement, indigenous people in Palestine/Israel have never ceased to pose a fundamental challenge to Jewish domination. Other indigenous people were largely exterminated or marginalized, as happened in the Caribbean, North America, and Australia, or they were absorbed to varying degrees into the settlers' cultures, as happened in Central and South America. But not the Palestinians. The violence must repeat itself indefinitely until Israel corrects the wrong done to all Palestinians in a genuine initiative of reconciliation and accommodation. Only then would the hope of achieving peace and security become a reality for everyone. Israel’s moral failure in dealing with the Palestinians, combined with its unwillingness to admit the injustice inflicted upon Palestinians, is an obstacle to peace and security in the Middle East. "There is a time to kill and time to heal, a time to break down and a time to build, a time to love and time to hate, a time of war and time of peace," (Eccl. 3:3 & 8), and Israel has the means to choose. * * * [Mohamed Elmasry is professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Waterloo. The Egyptian-born Canadian is national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress.] |
| NS |
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