Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| the attack of the nafs |
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| proudtobemuslim |
| 10/20/00 at 10:48:48 |
| slm If one knew somebody who is trying to be a good muslim, but is having problems regarding the girls in his class e.g. he really likes one of the girls but is too shy to talk to her (a good thing) but can't get himself over the fact that he really likes this girl and is going "crazy" and can only concentrate on her etc. what would one do to help the dude out? Wassalam-u-Alaikum Uzer |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/20/00 at 14:03:10 |
| Assalamoalykum, Well, I would tell the dude to change the class if he can. if he can't, he should sit at a place where he can't see her. He should also ask Allah to help him to lower his gaze and he should make dua for himself. But if he likes this girl with the intention of marrying her and not taking her as his girlfriend, (and I dont think the dude want a girlfriend--i'm sure of it), then he should get his parenst to talk to her parents. If she's available and her and her parents like the dude then they can get married. knowing that its Pakistan, the parents will probably won't want their daughter to get married so soon, so the dude should get nikah done. *LOL* Good luck to the bro! wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| saifullah |
| 10/20/00 at 15:57:17 |
| As-salaamu alaikum. The nikkah is the marriage. If the brother can't stop focusing on her, then whats best for him to do is fast. And if he wants, he should also put through the effort to convey to his parents or someone that knows th girl, that he is interested in her. Then, its up to the sisters family... Just tell him to fast!!! that should keep his mind off of her and make him concentrate on other things. wa salaamu alaikum |
| NS |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/21/00 at 15:35:21 |
| Assalamoalykum, by the nikkah i meant that he can have a relationship with her but isn't living with here. many people do that. wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| proudtobemuslim |
| 10/23/00 at 10:29:34 |
| Assalam-u-Alaikum Jazzak-Allahu Khairan all of you for your prompt replies. Lets say that this dude wants to get married. How do you think he should express his feelings to his parents or the girl if he is of the shy variety? Also consider that the dude is "only" 17/18. I'm sure you can understand the embarrassment of telling a girl or even one's own parents that one wants to get married. Jazzak-Allahy Khair Wassalam-u-Alaikum Uzer |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/23/00 at 10:35:22 |
| He's asking for trouble if he approaches the girl directly!!! Tell him to talk to his own parents and work through them. 17/18 is not really "only." It all depends from person to person. He should just tell his parents that he feels ready for marriage and he feels this girl is appropriate for him. I'm assuming here that he knows enough about the girl (that means more than the color of her eyes!) to have made his decision. Shyness? Tell him to be a man :) Seriously! Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/23/00 at 15:45:01 |
| Assalamoalykum, LOL. :) Arsalan said it! If he wants to get married, he can't be shy. Guys aren't supposed to be shy, the girls are supposed to be shy. :) ok,ok, now no one jump at me for a "sexist" comment. Does he have an uncle or an aunt that he can talk to about it or a close family friend? he can go to his parents throught that. I am sure the parents will think that the guy is too young to get married. So, you will have to come to a compromise with them and witht the girl and girl's parents. the only compromise that I see is that they get married, (nikah) but they don't have to start living together yet. wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/26/00 at 00:04:19 |
| Salam, I agree with Arsalan too. I think the dudes real problem is speaking up. Whenever someone posts a question like this, everyone is like "tell your parents to talk to her parents". I mean, thats the instinctual standard MAIM handbook response, but I don't know how realistic that is. How many sisters would seriously consider marrying a guy she's never met, let alone who's too afraid to talk to her. The second point is, before he all gets parents involved, how does he even know if he wants to marry this sister!!? My take is that the real underlying question here is: "I like this sister, but am too shy to talk to her. Can someone teach me how to mack?" Is that how you spell 'mack' ? :) Now, sisters, can you give out some REAL advice. I mean, seriously, like should he email you out of the blue, IM you, talk to your friends, find an excuse to talk to you...or should he really go straight to your parents? Now wait, I'm not condoning macking, but I happen to know some seriously shy brothers out there who are serious about marriage and could use some advice :) Please forgive me and feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong take on this... The scholars have actually differed in opinion when it come to love. Ibn Taymiyyah goes into detail about it in his book The Diseases of the Heart and Their Cures. InshaAllah, I'll try to post an excerpt here later. Way to go Saleema, we'll make a chauvinist out of you, just you wait...:) I pray that Allah makes things easier for everyone on the board :) Wassalam :) |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/25/00 at 12:28:20 |
| Way to go Saleema, we'll make a chauvinist out of you, just you wait...:) haha...we'll see... :) Ok, here's some real advise, knowing the dude i thought he might want the adivse ...allow my use of the words..."old fashioned" way of doing things. Well, you need to tell him to get over his shyness! Today's girls like bold guys! I know the dude is funny and so he might want to charm her by throwing some jokes around in front of her. Make sure he's loud enough so that she hears him. When she smiles and looks his way, he should flash her his 100 dollar smile and then lower his gaze and get back to work. There's a way to get attention. The next day, sit next to the seat that she sits in or in front of her. Approach her for help with the notes even if you have them all or ask her to explain a problem. Yeah, i think that would be the best way. Ask her for help on a problem. Make small talk, like, its so hot in Pakistan or someting. Talk, talk, talk.... That's the best way to know how the other person is. Since the dude seems like a very good muslim boy, he should bring up Islam in his conversations and see what her reaction is towards it. Bring up a political issue or something controversial in Islam... By talking to her he will have an idea about her personality and where her religious values stand. And this can be done within the limits of haya, so no flirting or macking. If some muslim boy was trying to mack on me, I'd *punch* him! And if it was a non-Muslim person, I'd politely tell him that I don't appreciate his flirting with me, I'm a Muslim girl, and if he wouldn't back off, I'd *punch* him too. So don't mack or flirt, tell that to your friend that ok? Because you never know what her reaction will be, she might throw punches around like me...so be careful and in Pakistan, I'm sure he knows, if a girl slaps or punches someone, the guy has been messing with her and everyone around them comes and beats up the guy... (Which is really pretty cool... :D ) wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Asim |
| 10/25/00 at 13:04:53 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Now, sisters, can you give out some REAL advice. I mean, seriously, like should he email you out of the blue, IM you, talk to your friends, find an excuse to talk to you...or should he really go straight to you parents? Now that will be some practically useful info brothers can use :) Sisters, anyone? |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/25/00 at 16:42:07 |
| Assalamu alaikum, [quote]I know the dude is funny and so he might want to charm her by throwing some jokes around in front of her. Make sure he's loud enough so that she hears him. When she smiles and looks his way, he should flash her his 100 dollar smile and then lower his gaze and get back to work. There's a way to get attention. The next day, sit next to the seat that she sits in or in front of her. Approach her for help with the notes even if you have them all or ask her to explain a problem.[/quote]You're kidding! Right? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Mona |
| 10/25/00 at 18:36:06 |
| assalamu alaikum, since i think i'm way older than most of you who posted (if not all!), i will give few words of wisdom :-) of course the two must talk...how else can the man/boy judge for himself that she is alright (and vice versa for the woman/girl)? just looks?? the question is how and where to talk. i would not recommend doing that crabwise (i.e. talking about weather, politics, other things during school). i think it would be more efficient(!) if the brother gathered up his courage and tried to speak once [color=Green]only[/color] to her after class and introduce himself, state that he would be interested in getting to know her more for the purpose of marriage and whether he (with his parents) may go ahead and speak to her parents about visiting. the brother must remember to speak while staring at his shoes :-) (i.e. lower thy gaze). Of course she might have to take few days to think about all this. Once it is okay to go and visit her at home, then and only then may they talk about whatever they like as long as she is in her home, respected and dignified. alternatively, he might ask to correspond with her by email, but caution must be used here on what they discuss. gotta to act islamically and maturely ...none of that silly "i love you" stuff. sometimes emails work as intermediary step b4 visiting the parents. now things might not work out after the "conversation" and/or the meeting of the parents, but that is okay, since everything was done dicreetly. mind you this approach is probably oversimplified, but i don't see why it should not be successful if both the boy and girl are mature and think in clear terms not influenced by culture or trends. of course this is just my opinion (and I don't know if it works yet, haven't been there so to speak). inshaAllah this helps. wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/25/00 at 20:23:06 |
Assalamoalykum Arsalan, no I'm not kidding. This is a shy guys we are talking about here. He has to take it step by step. Maybe my idea's not the best in the world, but if he's really that shy then a more direct approach by him may not be so successful. I dont know. I tried. wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/26/00 at 00:20:06 |
| salam, [quote]If some muslim boy was trying to mack on me, I'd *punch* him! And if it was a non-Muslim person, I'd politely tell him that I don't appreciate his flirting with me, I'm a Muslim girl, and if he wouldn't back off, I'd *punch* him too. -saleema[/quote] Man...Saleema your fiance must be a *brave* man :) I think your advice was really good. Jazakumallahu khairan :) |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Kashif |
| 10/26/00 at 05:07:59 |
| > I know the dude is funny and so he might want to charm her by throwing some jokes around in front of her. < Charm the sister? > When she smiles and looks his way, he should flash her his 100 dollar smile and then lower his gaze and get back to work. < hmmmmm... if someone did that to my sister, i'd knock his teeth out. There is a way to do things, and a way not to do things. > The next day, sit next to the seat that she sits in or in front of her. < Does anyone get the feeling that this sounds unislamic? Whatever happened to segregation (fattaqullaha mastata'tum) & hayaa? Anyhow, in our community, when a brother wishes to marry a sister, he arranges a visit to the sister's house (with the consent of both sets of parents) and they sit and speak (and sometimes her mahram too). If they find they are compatible, then alhumdulillah, and if not, then qadrullah. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/26/00 at 11:17:16 |
| Ditto Kashif. Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought that way! The proper [i]Islamic[/i] way, in my humble opinion, is for the guy to approach his parents and not the girl directly. Whatever research he needs to do about the character of the girl can be done through third parties, or through his own mother/sisters. Remember, marriage is not simply the union of two individuals, but two families. This is why going through the parents is extremely important. Add to that the cultural norms of Pakistan, and the consequences of approaching the girl directly, in any manner, become absolutely horrific! The guy has already seen the girl and she has seen him, so that issue is solved already. As far as talking with each other is concerned, I'd leave that for later, when the girls' parents have already been approached by the guys' parents, and there seems to be interest from both sides. After that, talks can take place in person, as long as there is no privacy. I would suggest the parents of the girl or her brother to be present during the conversations. Internet is also fine (according to Jamal Badawi at least). But watch out for the pitfalls mentioned by Mona. Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| tq |
| 10/26/00 at 11:43:01 |
| Assalamo elikuom I couldn't agree more with Mona, Arsalan and Kashif . Also since the "dude " is a student himself i.e. he cannot support himself and ofcourse his wife, it is better for him to forget about the idea till he is able to. I don't want to sound harsh but very few parents would want to marry their daughter to some one who is not financially stable - here I don't mean a big house lot of money etc etc. but a person should be able to earn a living and in this case pay the tuition also, both for himself and his wife. (the cost of agha khan U is pretty high and I don't think that it would be right to ask the dude's parent or the girl's parent to pay the tuition of girl even after marriage) There is a hadith also which basically says that if a boy/man is not able to support a family he should fast. My advice to "dude" would be since there is no concept of friendship between boy and girl in Islam (even if they are engaged there shouldn't be any talking without the presence of girl's mahram), he should concentrate on his studies (that is what his parents have sent him there for) - and when he is done with his studies i.e. after 4 years he should ask his parents to contact the girl's parent. Wasalam tq (mother of two boys :) ) |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| lightningatnite |
| 10/26/00 at 13:00:30 |
| salam, hmm...this is a very interesting discussion. I think one thing we have to remember is that we're all, literally, from different corners of the planet. We all have different communities, and the way things work is different. For example, in my community, of the last 10 couples to get married, only one or two met through their parents. The rest were all 'hooked up' through their friends or through their own initiative. Alhamdulillah, they are happily married and some have kids. They are all second generation Muslims in the US. From what I hear, things in the UK operate differently. I think what Saleema recognizes in 'dude' is that whenever someone posts something like this, its because he is introverted and inhibited. She was just encouraging him to get over it. I know a brother who was interested in someone and was too shy to tell his own parents for a whole year! [quote]he should concentrate on his studies (that is what his parents have sent him there for) - and when he is done with his studies he should ask his parents to contact the girl's parent. -tq[/quote] Not as easy as it sounds! :) Wassalam. |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/26/00 at 13:53:47 |
| Add to that the cultural norms of Pakistan, and the consequences of approaching the girl directly, in any manner, become absolutely horrific! Horrific? Arsalan, when me and you lived there, things were different :) Plus, this is Karachi we are talking about. Yes, I am making a sweeping generalization but still, from what I have observed, I think my generalization is very close to the mark. Wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| se7en |
| 10/26/00 at 15:07:32 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, Islam honors us. It elevates us. It purifies us. Islam grants us worth based not on how we look but what we are. Islam grants us the ability to interact with one another with dignity and respect. To step up above all these games that people play. To not ever have to think, "Is she smiling at me?" or "Was that a come on?" or "I wonder what he meant by that compliment." Don't play these games. If you're interested in someone, approach them in the correct manner. If you're not, back off. Don't sit at home and pine over someone, and don't manipulate another person's emotions if your intentions are not serious. There's a level of hayaa between us. There's a concept of lowering the gaze. Of no emotional attachment without commitment. Of no physical relationship without accountability. There is reason why Allah has legislated the commands He has. I don't understand why there would be a difference if someone used a tired line or a charming smile to compliment you. Unless the compliment is immediately preceding and/or following a statement of interest, it's literally a sweet nothing. And that's exactly what it would mean to me. Nothing. Anyway, this is my point: do not mack. Yes, there is a need to interact with someone to a certain extent in order to determine who this person is. Just seeing someone from afar should not be what makes you want to marry someone. Ideally it should be a person's character and behavior that appeals to you. However, my advice to brothers, and I say this completely seriously: do not mack. Do not allow yourself to get caught up in these feelings for someone. Don't waste your emotions on someone that you have no commitment to. Be objective, be strong, be distant. Act in an honorable way. Sometimes you guys mack without even realizing you are doing it. Honestly, women and men are just built emotionally differently. A guy can consider a sister just a friend, someone he talks to on occasion, and the sister can be thinking that this man has serious intentions towards her. After seeing so many girls torn apart by guys who were barely conscious of what they were doing, I'm asking you brothers - please be careful with how you treat sisters. Do not be careless with your words or your actions. Be conscious of what you do and what you say, because it can mean nothing to you and mean so much to another person. Make dua that we all have spouses that are 'the coolness of our eyes' :) wasalaamu alaykum. |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Arsalan |
| 10/26/00 at 15:09:04 |
| Aameen!!! |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Mona |
| 10/26/00 at 15:52:28 |
| assalamu alaikum [quote]For example, in my community, of the last 10 couples to get married, only one or two met through their parents. The rest were all 'hooked up' through their friends or through their own initiative. Alhamdulillah, they are happily married and some have kids. They are all second generation Muslims in the US [/quote] Agreed, people (muslim people even) vary in tradition and culture and what they think what is acceptable and what is not. Those who are deeply conscience of Allah exercise caution in every word and action they commit and try to distance themselves from shubuhat [doubted things]. So, it is all up to the individual in how s/he conducts him/her-self, knowing fully well that Allah is watching. Going through the process of choosing a spouse is not an excuse to do things alien to Islam. Se7en- I liked your comments very much. Wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Asim |
| 10/26/00 at 16:45:48 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Okay, time for my two cents. I must say Sr. Mona gave out the most complete and wisest *practical* advice. It is within the bounds of hayaa and, as she correctly mentioned, efficient! And I believe the approach is appropriate for all societies (the rules of hayaa should be same everwhere). And as Arsalan and Kashif pointed, 'charming the girl' or 'sitting next to her' is inappropriate to say the least. And in most cases, it will not work. If the sister has any self-respect she will throw punches at him (well, if she is like Saleema :) ) or at the very least ignore him. Now, the dude wants to get married, so why should he embroil himself in small talk. Such actions will only get him deeper into trouble. Ask her directly, if things work out, well and good. If not, it will be easier for him to move on if he has not got himself emotionally all tied up. So proudtobemuslim, tell your friend to bottle up his shyness, pop the question, and then wait for the return! I have lived through college in Pakistan and having seen a few cases like dude’s, I can say that Mona’s advice is the best. A similar thing actually happened to one of my six very close friends. One day I was reading his notes and noticed the name of the girl written all over the place :) When confronted he blurted out that yes he is interested in her, and this had been going on for several months. He had simply, completely, miraculously fallen head over heels for her! MashaAllah, he is a very religious person and even wears a beard (which btw is not looked upon positively in Pakistan). But he was shy and he also feared that it would not work because he was just an ordinary guy from a modest family and she was a physicians only daughter. After this, his ‘story’ became known among his classfellows including the girl. He, however, did not directly talk to her for a further year or so. And when he did he got a nasty response: I'm not interested. (BTW, this was engineering college and the girl/boy ratio in our session was 11/180! No surprises, the sisters got a lot of attention!) Alhamdulillah, my friend is happily married now (not to that girl) but he still remembers those crazy times and the heartache he went through. So what is the moral of the story? If you are interested in someone, do your istikharas and ask her or someone in her family about marriage directly and ASAP. If you delay, you will put yourself in a hole emotionally. Se7en, that was a good overall picture of how this should work. This piece from you seems familiar though. Did you post this before? I can understand tq's point of view as a parent. However, I feel the society puts too many obstacles in the path of marriage by placing one precondition or another. Marriage is a form of worship and when done with the right intentions Allah swt will help them, InshaAllah. Society often denies marriage by saying something like 'they are too immature' or 'they don't have the means'. However, when such marriages do occur they more often than not prove the society wrong. Because when the two are committed Allah helps them out. For example, I have personally seen someone who was irresponsible change drastically after marriage. Marriage is a cure for many society ills, so we as a society should encourage it rather than discouraging it. Wasalaam. |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Saleema |
| 10/26/00 at 17:32:40 |
| Assalamoalykum, What you guys have been saying is true. I wouldn't appreciate a guy macking on me. I would be turned off. Personally, a direct approach whether by him or through his parents will impress me. On the other hand if someone came directly to me but didn't overstep the limits of haya, I wouldn't just dismiss him either. (If i weren't engaged, but I am now, so... ) People always say those type of things but they don't realize the hypocracy behind it, whether its intentional or not. How many people are friends with the opposite sex? Don't you talk, laugh, tell jokes? You may not call each other friends but the fact of the matter is that its still friendship. That friendship may not be as extreme as the friendships that non-Muslim boys and girls have with each other but still its friendship. Is that oversteping the limits of haya? At work? At school? At organizations, clubs? Lets say someone approaches a girl through his parents and then they start talking after that, with a mahram present things will be tense and everyone will hide their true colors. Lets say the mahram isn't present, and the two people are communicating via mail or IM. What are they going to be talking about? "Hey woman, are you going to cook rice or parathas for me?" "What do you think, is beard wajib?" Please. The guy will be hiding his true self to impress and so will be the girl whether she is interested or not. So if someone really wants to know how a gril's character is he is going to talk to her without letting her know that he is interested in her. I am in no way saying that flirting or macking is okay. Who has heard of the story about the sahabi where he used to hide behind a tree and watch a woman that he was in love with but was too shy to tell her and propose? Well, I think it was another sahabi or perhaps someon else who encouraged him to go and ask the woman and he did and she said yes. Wassalam |
| Re: the attack of the nafs |
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| Asim |
| 10/26/00 at 22:48:21 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, One more piece of advice: make sure your friend is discreet and avoids any info from leaking to the other students. These things spread like wildfires on Pakistani campuses! For example, when my friend finally talked to the sister she was harsh, and understandably so. No one likes to be the subject of gossip on a wide scale. Wasalaam. |
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