Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| [MADRASA] Umar and the woman Hadith |
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| assing |
| 07/10/01 at 00:35:08 |
| As salaamu alaykum, I was recently listening to a lecture about women and politics and all that good stuff, and the speaker mentioned a hadeeth that is quite known and is often qouted as a proof to show muslim women being active in the community during the time of the messenger (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and his sahabah, however, the following story attributed to the rightly guided khalifah Umar ibn Al Khattab narrated by Al Haythami in the book "Majm'a Az Zwaa'id {vol 4. pg 286-287} from Masrooq who said: Umar ibn Al Khattab ascended the mimbar of the messenger (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and said "O you people, how greatly you all have increased the suduq {mahr-dowry} of the women, and if it was {out of} taqwa or generosity {that you all did this}, you all would not have proceeded them {the sahabahs} to it, and i do not know why the men exceeded 400 dirhams in the women's' dowry", he then descended, so a woman from the tribe of Quraysh disagreed with him and said "O ameer al mu'mineen, you prohibited the men from giving more the 400 dirham in dowry?", he said: yes, she said did you not hear Allah's' statement "and you have given one of them a Cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) as Mahr, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?" {An Nisa' :20}, then he said "O Allah forgive me, everyone has more understanding than Umar, so he changed his opinion and the ascended the mimbar and said "O people i used to prohibit you all from exceeding 400 dirham for the dowry, so whoever wants to give from his wealth he likes {then do so}, Abu Ya'la said: i think he said "whatever pleases him, then let him do so" , in which Al Haythami {who narrated this hadeeth} said that there is some weakness in Abu Ya'la. Furthermore, Shaikh Nasirdeen Al Albani said in his book "Irwa Al Ghaleel" {vol. 6 pg. 346, 348} as for this hadeeth, it is daef, munkar, narrated by Mujaalid from As Sha'bee from Umar narrated by Al Haythami {who said the hadeeth in munqata' i.e. missing a link in the chain of narrators}, I say {Albani} in addition to its missing link, it is daef because of Mujaalid and he is ibn Saeed and he is not qawee {strong}, plus the text of the hadeeth itself is munkar {i.e. it goes against more authentic hadeeth} because Umars' advice against being excessive with the mahr does negate the meaning of the ayat, and there is no time to explain all this because I wrote an article about this many years ago in an islamic magazine" |
| Re: Umar and the woman |
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| Saleema |
| 11/07/00 at 11:11:59 |
| Assalamoalykum, Okay, I am staying out of this forum and the one about Taliban. wassalam |
| Re: Umar and the woman |
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| chachi |
| 11/14/00 at 19:01:05 |
hmmm i agree , the most charitable thing that i can say about al-albaanee is he's better than the late bin baaz |
| Re: Umar and the woman |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/15/00 at 02:00:45 |
| Chachi, frankly speaking, I don't think me or you are in any position to make that type of a judgment! They were two great men. Both of them! May Allah have Mercy on their souls and grant them Paradise. Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| Saleema |
| 11/15/00 at 13:12:56 |
| Assalamoalykum, With all due respect chachi, how can you make such a remark about two great men? bin baz--do you know what he did in his lifetime? anyway, may Allah have Mercy on their souls. Ameen. wassalam |
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| mahsou411 |
| 11/15/00 at 20:06:33 |
| slm Could somebody please explain the last part of that first post to me. I do not understand all of the terms so I don't understand the replies. What does all this mean? And who are al-albanee and bin baz? slm |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/16/00 at 00:11:58 |
| Assalamu alaikum, mahsou - basically, that last part is saying that this hadith is not sound and weak. It is inauthentic. Shaikh Naseeruddin al-Albaani and Shaikh Abdullah ibn Baaz were great scholars of our time, both of whom passed away this year. Some people say that Shaikh Albaani was the biggest scholar of Hadith of our time. Some people also say that Shaikh Ibn Baaz was the most knowledgeable scholar of our time. Wallahu a'lam. |
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| proudtobemuslim |
| 11/16/00 at 10:07:15 |
| Assalam-u-Alaikum So if the whole hadith that has been posted is daeef, then what is the overall idea and moral of this thread? Forgive me for asking... Wassalam-u-Alaikum Uzer |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/16/00 at 12:50:25 |
| Assalamu alaikum, proud - I don't know exactly what hisham had in mind when he posted his original message, but I think the original post is trying to make the point that we should be careful about this story. Many people try to quote this story to make a point. But the fact is that this story is inauthentic, and so it cannot be used as evidence for anything. hisham - is it possible that this *particular* narration is weak, but other similar narrations from different chains of narrators might be authentic? It is often the case that Shaikh Albani looks at a hadith and declares it da'eef because of a missing link in its chain or whatever, but the same hadith can often be found through another chain of narrators, which is saheeh. The reason I say this is because I have heard another narration about this incident, which is similar to this one, but not exactly the same. |
| Re: Umar and the woman |
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| assing |
| 11/17/00 at 18:45:35 |
| As salaamu alaykum, "wa la uzaki a'lallahi ahadah"-I do praise anyone above Allah but, {you all should learn this dua which the rasul (saw) thought us if we want to say something good about someone} Br.Arslan showed he has some fiqh of this deen, because he was right, for when Al-Albani said that the hadeeth is "munkar" it does not mean evil as what might directly come to mind, but rather a "munkar" hadeeth is when narrator who is weak contradicts one who is trustworth, e.g. in the sunan of Abu Dawud there is a hadeeth Narrated Talhah ibn Musarrif which says" I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wiping his head once up to his nape {top of his neck}." However, this narration is "munkar" because first of all the narrator in the hadeeth is unknown and secondly the hadeeeth itself contradicts other authentic ahadeeth that show the rasul (saw) never wiped on his neck when making wudu. Likewise, this hadeeth which in actuallity is commonly known by the muslim masses as the one in which a woman from Quraysh objected to Umar by saying "O ameer al mu'mineen, you prohibited the men from giving more the 400 dirham in dowry?", he said: yes, she said did you not hear Allah's' statement "and you have given one of them a Cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) as Mahr, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?" {An Nisa' :20}, Umar then said "everyone has more understanding of the deen than Umar", and in some narrations "the woman is right and Umar is wrong".................to the end of the hadeeth. Shaikh Al Albani said this hadeeth was "munkar" not because it had no basis but because as Arsalan indicated it contradicted with the authenic hadeeth narrated bu Abu Dawud, At Tirmidhee, An Nasa'i, Ibn Hibban and other where from AbulAjfa' as-Sulami who said: Umar (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a speech to us and said: "Do not go to extremes in giving women their dower, for if it represented honour in this world and piety in Allah's sight, the one of you most entitled to do so would have been the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) did not marry any of his wives or gave any of his daughters in marriage for more than twelve uqiyahs". Now that was a lil' "one time for your mind" free, bonus lesson in the science of hadeeth. |
| NS |
| Re: Umar and the woman |
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| Saleema |
| 11/17/00 at 19:29:32 |
| Assalamoalykum, I must say that I am surprised. Really, I need to learn to stop jumping the gun. Wow, that's a relief. Thank you for that explanation Arsalan and Assing. I thought this thread was going to do some bashing on women and their speaking in public. That's why I made up my mind not to write in this thread. :) wassalam |
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