a little help please

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a little help please
se7en
02/01/01 at 21:19:59

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

What would be the best way to respond to this person?

--
I like the part where you mentioned attractive physical appearance as "eye candy". He he! I am going to use that term from now on.

Oh well, I guess you think wearing a veil is a good thing. I respect that as you have your own good reasons. To me, I don't really care what people do as long as they don't bother me and don't hurt children or animals.

Want to know what I think about women wearing veils? If you do, this is my honest opinion. Well, if it is cold like during winter in NY, sure.  It is practical. However, when it is 100 F, I don't think it is comfortable and practical. As for being an eye candy without a veil, hmmmm... women who wear veils are still eye candy - I heard men talking about their looks.
In fact, people say I am more attractive with a veil! The Islam I know requires women to cover their whole body except hands and face. As for men they must cover up from belly button to the bottom of their knees. I don't think that is fair. I think that men are also eye candies. I like to look at sexy men and fantasize about them too. For example I go to my calculus class every
time just for the prof's looks. I don't go to other classes all the time because the profs or TA's aren't my type of eye candies. To me, eye
candies make life interesting, fun and enjoyable. It is no harm looking at the eye candies or being one. He he! In fact if a man told me I was physically  attractive, it would be an honor to me.

As for men liking women just for their looks if they don't cover up, hmmmm... well, I think looks and sex play an important role in a relationships. It would be hard for me to date a man that is not as nice looking as me or who is too nice looking. It is natural for us to date
people who have similar physical appearances - I read it in psychology book and noticed that it is true. So, looks are important. But of course
looks isn't the only factor that determines a good relationship. Personality types, values and lifestyles are important too. For example, there are plenty of nice looking guys out there, but I don't want to date them because their  personalities, values and lifestyles are different than mine. Maybe you are talking about other types of relationships (other than husband,
boyfriend). Oh well, I think it goes the same way with our partners (hubby,bf) but in a lesser degree. Get what I mean?


P/S:  Just wanted to mention that in many species, looks do play an
important role such as the turkeys and peacocks display their nice
tails and
colors. So, it is a natural thing. Why take it away?


--

you wont like this but it needs to be said
Anonymous
02/02/01 at 14:18:39
Hijab
In Islam a man is naked unless he covers from his bellybutton to his knee. A women is naked if show shows anything except for her face and hands
in front of non muhram(a lot of ulimah say she is only allowed to show her
eyes). Today we see a lot of "sisters" cant be bothered to cover even the minimum shriah requirement. this is sometimes due to the fact that they are completely ignorant of Islam, but today even kuffar know that Muslim
women  have to cover.  Today many Muslims don't take this seriously,
because they have adapted aspects of the seedy way of life of the kuffar.
The kaffar think that just because a woman reveals her nakedness does not mean she has loss morals. But what do you call a women who shows off parts of her body she believes should be kept privet to strange men? And if she does not believe those parts are to be kept privet, what is the religion she follows? as Islam orders her to cover at minimum all but face and hands. What is so difficult about covering your head with a bit of cloth? Why are they so scared? The kuffar label it as
oppression, do we as Muslims accept the kaffars view or the orders from Allah?
This problem also lies with men, as very few of us are willing to marry a girl who shows other parts she needs to cover to strange men but a lot of them are willing to marry females who show off their heir. Do these men think that there is a difference between the hair
and other parts? Because a Muslim women is naked if she shows off any part of
hers she needs to cover. Some one who shows of there privet parts to strangers of the opposite sex are openly sinful and should not be trusted, just like some one who openly steals, commits fornication, drinks etc, they should not be trusted. Because some one who rebels against Allah cant be trusted to be truthful to people. Muslim men should find such women repugnant, as how can any man be willing to share his woman's hidden parts with other men? How can he except her to bring up his children well when she is busy galivanting around with parts uncovered that should be hidden to all except himself and people who Allah has allowed to uncover infrunt of.

I expect a lot of you will not like what I have said, but I just don't care, cause as far as I am concerned, it means you are brainwashed. these days allot of Muslims don't like talking about parts of Islam the kaffar find repugnant, and the fact that practising Muslim women have morals is something they find most repugnant. as today lack of morality is seen as a virtue in the disbelieving society. and the covering of Muslim women shows blatant disregard to lack of morality.

Re: a little help please
se7en
02/02/01 at 14:31:49
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

Jazak Allahu khayran for your comments.  Yes, it is true that one who fully understands the obligation of wearing hijab, and then rejects it, is doing wrong in the sight of Allah.  They are holding their own beliefs and thoughts above the wisdom of Allah azza wajal, and that is not correct.  I do agree with you on this.  

However, this person that I am speaking to is not fully aware of what hijab is, what it means, what it's purpose and intention is.  And I think that in order to accept hijab and see it as right you need to have a true understanding of all of this.  It's the same way you would explain tawheed to someone, or salah.. you can't just say "believe in One God, or you are a kaffir and are not to be trusted", you have to appeal to a person's senses, get them to see the wisdom and logic behind it in order to get them to open up their minds and their hearts to Islam and the specific concept you are talking about.

Jazak Allahu khayran for your comments anonymous, I will keep them in mind.


As to the original post, lemme tell you what exactly I am having trouble with.  It's this whole concept of beauty and physical attraction being natural, and her belief that there is no reason to stifle that.  Like for example, her comment about the peacocks, how sexual attraction is something normal.  Should I go into sociology, and like what sut jhally and them say about perceptions of women in society, how women are objectified and it's not a case of healthy natural attraction but much more than that?  

I don't know the best way to go about discussing this with her, she's older than me and she's had a lot of bad experiences with Islam, I want to be very careful what I say and make sure that I go about explaining these things to her in the best way possible.

Jazak Allahu khayran in advance for any advice you can give me.

C'mon y'all.. I've helped you guys with some questions!!

wasalaam.

Re: a little help please
Kashif
02/02/01 at 15:00:45
bismillah was-salaatu was-salaam `alaa rasoolillah

assalaamu alaikum

I always think its best to draw an argument back to the real issue: is this issue - whatever it may be - what God wants of us? If it is, then who are we to argue with what He is commanding?

My strategy is to always try and reduce the discussion initially to proving Allah's existence & the truthfulness of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. After that i proceed to address the issue in itself.

I would go down the sociology aspect personally, but definitely mentioning alongside the fact that in Islam we do this simply because Allah has commanded us to.

There are so many social evils that are already apparent everywhere due to the lack of modesty amongst men and women today, many of which i'm sure you're aware of, that you should be able to convince her that it is better for women to opt for modest covering and not flaunting their beauty.

When i read her comments i just thought "All praise and thanks are to Allah who taught us to rise above being led solely by our animal instincts." Can any human hold their head high and say "I'm going to take the Peacock & Turkey as my example?"

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: a little help please
Nazia
02/02/01 at 16:35:58
Assalamu Alaikum,

I agree with br. Kashif.  Establish the proof for the existence of Allah and the Quran.  Most people have no trouble saying they "believe" in Him.  But do they really? I don't know, perhaps they do, but perhaps they have never really thought about it.  Perhaps they have heard of His existence so much that they just adopted the idea without thinking.  While thats great Alhamdulillah that they accept His existence, they lose something vital to the experience of being a Muslim.  We not only have to *say* we believe in Allah, but we have to understand this belief, and the magnitude of this truth.  His existence and His miracle (the Quran)are not simply things for us "accept" and say, "Yeah thats cool..anyways, moving right along"  They are there for us as PROOF that everything in this life and the next belong to Him and Him alone.  A CONSTANT reminder that we are simply *borrowing* these "beautiful bodies" , we are simply *borrowing*  our homes, families, friends, money,cars etc. Yes, Allah gave us beauty, and that is why He gave us love.  Love that is unique, not to be exploited, love that is to be shared with one person, our husband/wife.  Not only that, the proof of His existence is also there to serve as a constant reminder that if HE exists, everything in HIS book is true and therefore deserves to be obeyed in the fullest, including the idea of modesty.  This is the duty of a believer, this is the duty of a Muslim.  THIS is belief in Allah.

And her animal example, while thought provoking, should definitely not confuse us.  Allah has made us smarter, more intelligent than other animals.  Allah has given us the ability to reason, to think, to feel, to love.  We are much different from any other species.  Cats lick themselves clean, should we?  Some animals eat their children, should we?  Of course not. Yes, some similarities exist.  Yes, we do keep ourselves clean like the cat, yes we do provide for our families in a specific way, and yes we do possess beauty like the peacock and the turkey.  But the WAY we clean, the WAY we treat our families, the WAY we use our beauty HAS to be different, because WE ARE DIFFERENT.

Subhan'Allah.

Take Care,
Wassalamu Alaikum
Nazia
Re: a little help please
Zahra
02/02/01 at 18:17:07
Of course, both men and women are attractive.  Just because women are required to wear more hijab than mean are, does not necessarily mean that they are the more attractive sex.  From the beginning of time women have been used as sex objects and their value has been placed on their looks, appearances, level of attractiveness, etc.  Look at the history of Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt, Ancient China, etc.  In these times, women were normally, not seen as intellectual beings-their ideas and thoughts were not sought.  In Ancient China, they were even excluded from religion!  Keep going through history and you will continuously see this pattern.  The British suffragettes starving themselves just to get the right to vote!  AMERICAN women receiving the right to vote in 1920!  1920!-That was only 80 years ago-that's crazy!  Unfortunately, these are the facts-women since they were created, have been dealt with unjustly and were excluded from all things intellectual.  HIJAB takes women out of that oppressive realm.  Hijab says, "I have a brain. I have a mind.  I have thoughts. I have ideas.  I have an intellect.  I have beliefs.  I refuse to submit to unjust patterns of oppression. I am an intellectual woman."  Hijab does more than just protect us from wandering eyes.  Allah says in the Quran that He has perfected our religion for us and given to us Islam as a way of life.  This final message was final in it's fullest sense in that it perfected all the imperfections of humanity and folded it into the envelope of Islam.  
Re: a little help please
Kathy
02/02/01 at 21:09:52
As salaamu alaykum

Here are some of my thoughts based on my experiences. Usually the longer you let someone talk, while you give incredulous facial descriptions- the more awkward they will get- because their deep seated morality will start to surface.

"Oh well, I guess you think wearing a veil is a good thing. I respect that as you have your own good reasons. To me, I don't really care what people do as long as they don't bother me and don't hurt children or animals. "

Everything we do - does affect our children- they see and hear much more than you realize. They are are future and learn from us... it takes a village to raise a child.

Well, if it is cold like during winter in NY, sure.  It is practical. However, when it is 100 F, I don't think it is comfortable and practical.

Then why do Arab men in the middle of the desert wear one? Obviously they have acclimated to their climate in the most comfortable way.

As for being an eye candy without a veil, hmmmm... women who wear veils are still eye candy - I heard men talking about their looks.
In fact, people say I am more attractive with a veil!

Yep- me too.


The Islam I know requires women to cover their whole body except hands and face. As for men they must cover up from belly button to the bottom of their knees. I don't think that is fair. I think that men are also eye candies.

Yes there are gorgeous men out there.

I like to look at sexy men and fantasize about them too. For example I go to my calculus class every  time just for the prof's looks. I don't go to other classes all the time because the profs or TA's aren't my type of eye candies. To me, eye
candies make life interesting, fun and enjoyable. It is no harm looking at the eye candies or being one. He he! In fact if a man told me I was physically  attractive, it would be an honor to me.


oh- (sometimes you just have to say nothing)

As for men liking women just for their looks if they don't cover up, hmmmm... well, I think looks and sex play an important role in a relationships. It would be hard for me to date a man that is not as nice looking as me or who is too nice looking. It is natural for us to date
people who have similar physical appearances - I read it in psychology book and noticed that it is true. So, looks are important. But of course
looks isn't the only factor that determines a good relationship.

Yep, looks are important- so is religion, their lifestyle, and family.

Personality types, values and lifestyles are important too. For example, there are plenty of nice looking guys out there, but I don't want to date them because their  personalities, values and lifestyles are different than mine. Maybe you are talking about other types of relationships (other than husband,
boyfriend). Oh well, I think it goes the same way with our partners (hubby,bf) but in a lesser degree. Get what I mean?

No- explain.


P/S:  Just wanted to mention that in many species, looks do play an  important role such as the turkeys and peacocks display their nice
tails and  colors. So, it is a natural thing. Why take it away?

Are you saying you want the men to show thier tails and feathers?

Se7en- what the others said is correct- We do it because Allah swt says to. He knows all- so I am going to listen to Him swt.

As you are aware it is hard for someone to follow our reasoning. So perhaps I have helped you with some alternate answers, Insha Allah.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NS
Re: a little help please
jade
02/03/01 at 13:10:51
salaamu alaikom,
I hope I can help a little. (sorry if I repeat some of the others arguments)
plz allow me to direct my comments to the person in question.

"To me, I don't really care what people do as long as they don't bother me and don't hurt children or animals."

islam trys to minimize what may bother or hurt those in society. thats why it requires both men and women to dress modestly.

allowing people to flaunt thier bodies without any restraints builds up sexual frustration. this is natural. it is then natural for a person to seek a way of fulfilling this sexuall feeling.
this may happen in many ways. two of which are:

premarital sex and rape

premarital sex is prohibited in islam.
why?
fatherless and/or motherless children, sexually transmitted diseases. the reasons go on and on and would need pages to write them all.

rape
do I need to explain?

"eye candies make life interesting, fun and enjoyable"

if all you are interested in is satisfying your own sexuall urges without thought to what the repecusions might be on society then excuse but you are totally selfish.

"well, I think looks and sex play an important role in a relationships. It would be hard for me to date a man that is not as nice looking as me or who is too nice looking. It is natural for us to date people who have similar physical appearances"

first, the concepet of dating has no place in islam.
second, it is true that looks play a vital role in choosing a partner.
most islamic scholars agree that women are allowed to show their faces. and even those who don't agree say that it is allowed if a men has asked for her hand in marriage and wishes to see her face. they are also allowed to sit with each other and talk inorder to see if they are compatible.

the problem with the people in the west today is that they hold on to totally abstract ideals that have no practical place in human society. they fail to take in to consideration the basic facets of human nature. they want to have absolute freedom when it comes to whatever urges they might have (sexual or otherwise) but don't want to endure any of the repecusions of thier actions. and in most cases will deny any connection between the two.






Re: a little help please
ki
02/04/01 at 13:26:43
Aoozubillahi minash shaytaanir rajeem
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Hope Allah will give me the opportunity to add a few things to this topic.........

I agree with the approach that in Islam many things have to be done basically because Allah has commanded us to do them whether or not they appeal to our way of thinking. So I guess without a basic belief in Allah and His Messengers and Books many aspects of Islam might not seem relevant to some people. Maybe this is why the declaration of Faith is the entry of a person into Islam and the denial of it is the exit.

One reason that was said by Dr. Bilal Philips in one of his TV programs in support of women covering more parts of their body is the high number of cases of rapes. How many times have you heard of a man being raped by a woman? He said that in Canada in a certain city the women put forward a case demanding that in summer, just like the men there, they want to walk topless. They argued that after all a bare-chested man is just as attractive to them. So if the men are allowed then why not the women? The women won the case in court but still (Dr. Bilal said) that no woman had the guts to go on ahead and walk topless........for obvious reasons.

May Allah guide you with the right way of putting across the message to this friend of yours, ameen

Your sister in Islam
ki
NS
Re: a little help please
Ikani
02/04/01 at 16:51:54
Assalamu alaikum,
Let me just say look at it this way:
men walking around with thick beard faces or 'altered' faces which are clean shaven are still considered by society as 'men', equal members of the society;
ladies walking around with beardless faces are okay in society - equal memebers too, but when they act like the men and 'alter' their faces to grow thick beards - oops, it's all 'ugly', 'odd', 'abnormal' and 'imitating men', what happened to 'equal members of society'?
The same applies for walking around bare-chested - the guy's chest can be bare or covered by a thick mass of hair whereas the lady has only one option - bare. Equality....
True, animals attract each other with their feathers or hair/hides, colours and patterns - but at least the male and female of the species one way or the other tend to have some equal form of body covering APART FROM THE BARE SKIN.
In the Qur'an, we're informed of how Shaytan lured mankind into losing the original body covering, thus exposing his nakedness. Scientists even say humans have somehow lost their body-covering either via mutation or 'evolution'. One scientist even suggested the reason why women tend to be less hairier than men was because earlier man decided to mate mainly with the less hairy of the females around. This was to lead to a genetic inheritance now keeping the female offsprings less hairier than their brothers. If such a theory is true, then I guess he must be trying to say "look, the guys decided how they wanted the gals to look and if you feel the need to uncover yourself lady, then you've got the idea".
I think it's pretty kool how Islam has taught people such knowledge even if they don't want to listen. And don't give us that stuff about how we Africans, closer to nature, have our ladies walking around topless and all's free and well. You got that right - check this out, for the few African tribes with that practice, how many of them allow free mingling of their daughters with boys? How "independent" and "equal" to the men are they regarded as being? Notice in many cases how the older respected women in the communities do not appear topless?
Allah knows best.

- Ikani.

Re: a little help please
jade
02/05/01 at 01:24:12
salaamu alaikom,
hi Ikani,
you said:
"In the Qur'an, we're informed of how Shaytan lured mankind into losing the original body covering, thus exposing his nakedness."
I didn't know that, could you tell me the ayya.

salaam...
Re: a little help please
Ikani
02/05/01 at 02:18:49
Assalamu alaikum,
Phew,sorry it took me a while jade - had to find where I had the location of the ayya written down (so I'm still learning, not a reknown scholar y'know, and I forget things so easily - that's why I couldn't do History in school with all the dates and names).

(Al-A'raf)7:27
O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, STRIPPING THEM OF THEIR RAIMENT, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
(Ta-Ha)20:121
In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced

Re: a little help please
se7en
02/05/01 at 14:18:17

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

Jazak Allahu khayran for those of you who posted here and for those of you who private messaged me.

I totally lost track of what I was doing here.  I let the discussion veer off into rational 'reasons' of hijab, and did not clarify that these are not reasons, they're just some of the wisdom behind its legislation.  And that the real reason we do the things we do is not because they fit into our logic in the time and society we live in, it's because we are told to do so by Allah with no doubt.    

InshaAllah I'm going to read through all of these again and write a response to the sister.

Good to know some people got my back ;)  

wasalaam.
Re: a little help please
jehad
02/05/01 at 15:41:56
Asalm walakum..
The anonymous hijab article was from me but it was not meant to be a reply to your article.
The main issue that needs to be dealt with on what your friend said is "I don't care what people do as long as it does not heart me or children and animals".
This statement explains everything else she said.
Here she states her criteria for judging actions, and it is something other then quran and sunnah.
I think the reason for her confusions is people have been using logical arguments to prove Islamic rulings to her. Logical arguments don't work cause one persons logic is different to another's. No two people have the same mind, so what seems logical to one person will seem illogical to another. I think this is the case cause when she mentions her arguments for thinking Islamic rulings are wrong it is due to logical reasons attacking arguments people use to defend Islam not based on Islam.
What you need to do is to get back to basics with her, if she does not believe in Islam, show her that Islam is definitely the deen from Allah. After this you need to explain to her that she needs to follow Islam and obey Allah and the consequences of not doing so, and the reword for doing so. After she understand that bad deeds are all that Allah calls bad and good deeds are all that Allah calls good, and she believes in Allah and his deen, then give her the evidences from Quran and Sunnah for the rule she those not believe in. Every one seems to disagree with this but it's a fact… that if logic is the source of Islam and not Allah, allot of what she says is true. It is true, women find men attractive as well as men finding women attractive. It is true women look beautiful in hijab and even more so in nikab. Instead of trying to refute her logic,, just ignore it, as the order for women to cover has nothing to do with making them look ugly. The only reason for all the rules of Islam, including the ones she has mentioned negatively is Allah has ordered them. You know you need to also tell her if she goes to those classes to lust over her male teachers, it is no longer Halal for her to attend those classes. She does know dating is harram? It looks like there aren't many rules she knows about.
Re: a little help please
Ikani
02/06/01 at 03:04:03

[quote]salaamu alaikom,
hi Ikani,
you said:
"In the Qur'an, we're informed of how Shaytan lured mankind into losing the original body covering, thus exposing his nakedness."
I didn't know that, could you tell me the ayya.

salaam...[/quote]
Assalamu alaikum,
Let me make a correction - when I said 'original body covering' it sounded like some hair, fur or something. The scholar Yusuf Ali has commented on that verse saying 'raiment' in this case refers to the 'raiment of innocence and honour' as Adam and his partner knew no evil then so their nakedness was never obvious to them.


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