Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| General Election in May |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/12/01 at 07:36:01 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I have a couple of questions. Firstly could anyone provide me with some references on whether Muslims should particpate in kuffar elections. Arguments on both sides would be appreciated. I know the US brothers and sisters talked about this but I can't find the right thread. Secondly for all the Brits out there, if you decide to vote, who do you think would be better for Islam? And no I don't have any inside knowledge, its just an educated guess. ;-) |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| se7en |
| 02/12/01 at 17:18:01 |
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, [quote]I know the US brothers and sisters talked about this but I can't find the right thread.[/quote] Here are some threads in which this was discussed: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=961]for those who voted...[/url] [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=737]findley urges muslims to vote for bush[/url] [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=527]voting?[/url] You can do a search on the word "voting" and find more inshaAllah. wasalaam. |
| NS |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/13/01 at 06:11:13 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Jazakallah Khair for the links |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| se7en |
| 02/13/01 at 13:26:42 |
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah, waiyyakum :-) |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| jehad |
| 02/15/01 at 09:23:56 |
| asalm walakum Ruling by other then what allah revealed is kufr. when you take part in the election process you are taking part in this kufr. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| se7en |
| 02/15/01 at 11:55:19 |
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, jehad I suggest you take a look at the discussions we had above, specifically br. bhaloo's post "The Significance of Voting in the Light of the Sharî'âh" wasalaaam. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/15/01 at 17:09:11 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Br jehad introduce yourself at the Bebzi Stand ;-) |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| jehad |
| 02/22/01 at 13:55:32 |
| salam alakum seven seen it, thats why i wrote that thing about democracy. no one can make what allah made harram hallal. shame that instead of trying to make an islamic system people are busy trying to justify the system of the kaffar. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| se7en |
| 02/22/01 at 15:58:04 |
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, Brother Jehad, with all due respect, be careful what you accuse people of. You have no right to say someone is performing an act of kuffr if it is not considered such by scholars. I have not once in my life encountered a Muslim who voted in order to promote the kuffar agenda. And please, let's keep this discussing in one thread. It seems like there are eight theads open discussing the same exact thing, which is unnecessary and redundant. I am not arguing with you about the need for an Islamic state. I am telling you that if you don't want to vote, that is fine, but do not sit here and tell me that it is kuffr. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| jehad |
| 02/23/01 at 13:18:22 |
| asalm walakum... sister seven..with all due respect. I am not accusing the ummah of being kaffar. but voting in a democracy is a act of legislation. in Islam legislation is only the right of Allah. When you vote for some one, you are saying you would like this HUMAN to legislate on your behalf. This is kuffer, many ullima have said this is kuffer. the prisons in the muslim world are full of them. it is true that there are people who give excuses to vote in prisons as well, but it is very difficult not be in prison in the muslim world. in genral the people who give excuses say it is kufr as well,, they just say that we can use it as a means to try and distroy the kufr systems from within. Most muslims here voted labair, when they came in to power they did alot of nonislamic stuff, they made new nonislamic laws. the muslims who helped them in to power share the blaim. it is harram to help people in to sin and kuffer, even if they dont need your help. I have never met anymuslim who voted on a islamic agender, they voted according to there political affiliations, left wing people vote to the left, while right wingers to the right. Muslims who are members of kufr parties try to tell muslims how their party is more islamic then the others, to try and win the muslim vote. these are just excusses. I have never met anyone here who is voting to try and bring Islamic law here,, have you? All the parties in the kaffar world want there countries to be rich,, this means making our countries poor. so who ever you vote for the western countries will always be anti-islamic. only way to Islamise them is to invade them. i want to see the west in poverty, the weaker they are, the less they can do to harm us. muslims need to decide where their loyaltess lie. It is a fact that i have never met any one who votes, who is working with a Islamic party who are trying to bring back the khillafah. and i have never met any one who belongs to one of these who votes. just a coincidence? i think not. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/23/01 at 13:35:12 |
| slm Hmmm, this discussion has taken place before. Here is a question and answer with Sheikh Munajidd with regards to this issue, I believe it was already posted here. Some Moslems in a non Islamic country are asking if it is OK to participate in the elections there and vote for non Moslem groups or parties. They claim that it would serve the Moslem community there if a certain group won the elections? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. This is a matter concerning which rulings may differ according to different circumstances in different times and places. There is no absolute ruling that covers all situations, both real and hypothetical. In some cases it is wrong to vote, such as when the matter will have no effect on the Muslims, or when the Muslims have no effect on the outcome of the vote. In this case voting or not voting is all the same. The same applies in cases where all the candidates are equally evil or where they all have the same attitude towards Muslims It may be the case that the interests of Islam require Muslims to vote so as to ward off the greater evil and to reduce harmful effects, such as where two candidates may be non-Muslims but one of them is less hostile towards Muslims than the other, and Muslims votes will have an impact on the outcome of the election. In such cases there is nothing wrong with Muslims casting their votes in favour of the less evil candidate. In any case, this is the matter of ijtihaad based on the principle of weighing up the pros and cons, what is in the interests of Islam and what is detrimental. With regard to this matter, we have to refer to the people of knowledge who understand this principle. We should put the question to them, explaining in detail the circumstances and laws in the country where the Muslim community is living, the state of the candidates, the importance of the vote, the likely benefits, and so on. No one should imagine that anyone who says that it is OK to vote is thereby expressing approval or support for kufr. It is done in the interests of the Muslims, not out of love for kufr and its people. The Muslims rejoiced when the Romans defeated the Persians, as did the Muslims in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) when the Negus defeated those who had challenged his authority. This is well known from history. Whoever wants to be on the safe side and abstain from voting is allowed to do so. This response applies only to elections for influential positions. And Allaah knows best. |
| NS |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| Arsalan |
| 02/23/01 at 13:43:25 |
| [slm] [quote]It is a fact that i have never met any one who votes, who is working with a Islamic party who are trying to bring back the khillafah. [/quote]I have! My dear brother Jehad, consider the present scenario of Muslim citizens of America: 1. They have lived most of their lives in this country, and for many of them, this IS their country. 2. The Islamic Khilafah does not exist at present anywhere in the world. 3. Much work is required for the establishment of the Islamic Khilafah, and although many people are working diligently for its cause, we could always use more help. 4. Regardless of the reality of #4, the fact remains that the dream of Khilafah will not become a reality any time soon (at least not until several years). Please note that I'm not losing tawakkul in Allah - for certainly it is His Promise that we will be victorious in the end - but that *end* seems far away to me, personally, judging from present conditions. In these circumstances, when much work remains to be done before the khilafah is established on this Earth, what is an American Muslim to do in the meantime while presidential elections come and go every 4 years? Please note that this American Muslim is already ACTIVELY involved in working for the establishment of the Khilafah. In my humble opinion, if two candidates exist for presidential elections, and one of them apparently seems to have a more favorable attitude towards Islam and Muslims, while the other is a staunch enemy of Islam and Muslims, I would try my hardest to make sure that the former gets into power, and not the latter. For this cause, I will VOTE and recruit as many other Muslims as possible to do so. This does NOT mean that I stop working to establish the Khilafah. By no means! But until that process is completed, why not USE the system of the Kuffar for our advantage? Isn't this what the Prophet (pbuh) did with the Quraishi system of protection (walayah) while in Makkah? Then how can you call such an American Muslim a KAFIR? His vote is NOT to give power to one who will rule with other than the Law of Allah. No. His vote is to give power to one who will be less harmful to the Muslims in the world than the other candidate - UNTIL the Khilfah is established on Earth! I would go even so far as to say that such a Muslim MUST vote in order to relieve the suffering of the Ummah, and to prevent an absolute tyrant from gaining power in Darul Kufr. An example is the last elections in the United States where there was a clear distinction between Gore and Bush regarding policies towards Muslim countries (especially Palestine). Bush won in the end, but with an extremely narrow margin. Incidently, these elections saw the largest Muslim turnout who voted as a single block. Had all Muslims decided to refrain from voting thinking it was KUFR, Gore would be President right now! And Liebermann (a Jew) would be V.P. May Allah keep the Muslims in His Protection. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| chachi |
| 02/24/01 at 00:09:45 |
going to do my usual and spoil my ballot to prove a) i'm not too lazy or satisfied to vote b) the systems set up and run by big business and multinationals |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| jehad |
| 02/28/01 at 10:28:38 |
| Aslam walakum broths.. Firstly in response to bhaloo, the fatwa will apply if voting in a kuffer system was mubah. The maliki principle of marsala mursala is only valid to decide between to mubah actions. Ruling by other then what Allah reveals is harram. Voting is the voter nominating the voted to make laws with other then what Allah has revealed on behalf of the voter. Voting in a non-Islamic system is clearly an act of making laws, which is only a right of Allah. We can't break the laws of Allah to gain benefit, people often use this argument to try and legalise many things Allah made harram, not just taking part in a non-Islamic system. People use this argument mainly to legalise ribe. Secondly, the Muslims were asked by the Negus to aid him against the people who wanted to remove him. The Muslims did not give him this aid. They just kept a eye on events. Arsalan, what is the dream and what is the expected out come? It is a dream that the kaffar will do anything to aid us. We are their enemy, they know it and we know it. The politicians do not make the laws that matter in democratic countries, they are formed by the civil service on behalf of the rich and powerful. Gore and bush are the same, now that Bush has wan, America is still aiding Israel, and killing Muslims in Iraq. It's a dream to think we can use democracy to our advantage, its their system, built for the advantage of their rich and powerful. The politicians of the west have a job to do, if they don't do it well they are removed, the people who do the removing are the rich and powerful, they make donations to both parties to insure their interests. Muslims all over the MiddleEast cheered when labour wan the elections in Israel, nothing at all was gained from this, they killed Muslim children and confiscated Muslim land just as previous governments. All parties in Israel want what is good for the Jews, and what is bad for us, they just differ on how best to get it. There is no real difference between bush and gore, there religions are due to a accident of birth. It is known that the khilafah is the only valid form of government and the only valid way to rule. Governments in the Muslim world aren't built of stone, they are constantly changing, but so far, the people doing the changing have not been the true Islamists. People are working in the Muslim world, quo attempts, have been going on for a long time now, as soon as one is successful, that would be the start of khilafah. What is good for the citizens of the west is not what is good for the khilafah. Today most of the resources of the Islamic world go to the rich west, after khilafah this will stop, this will effect, the way of life of the people in the west. And the western countries will fight to secure their way of life. Who will the Muslims in the west side with? We have seen the propaganda and sanctions against Governments like the Taliban. We have seen the fact that allots of Muslims in the west believe the propaganda and support the evil acts of their governments. We know from the WW1 that allot of Muslims fought in the armies of the British, Americans and French against the khilafah whose chain of ruling had existed since the time of our Prophet. So when the new khilafah comes, will the Muslim citizens of the west try to hinder the evil desires of their governments with terrorism, or join the armies that will muster up to destroy the khilafah a second time. What you need to remember is fatwas are very cheep, I know about the fatwas the British obtained from their Indian ulima, to get Muslims to join their army and fight the khilafah, I also know the French army was full of people from Muslim counties of west Africa. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| Arsalan |
| 02/28/01 at 16:59:13 |
| [slm] My dear brother Jehad, I would like to remind you by the words of the one who was better than both of us (peace be upon him): If a man calls another man a kaafir, one of them is certainly worthy of that title. Yaa akhi, be careful of using this word [kaafir] for people who profess to be Muslims. Please read the fatwa of Shaikh Munajjid again and reconsider your choice of words for your Muslim brothers and sisters who decided to vote for Bush in the past elections (with the sincere intention of choosing the lesser evil out of the two). As far as I am concerned, this topic is closed. Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: General Election in May |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/28/01 at 17:09:34 |
| slm Brother Jehad the response I posted was from a knowledgeable person who has studied islam intensively, is well respected and is well versed in fiqh and the islamic sciences, and is a legitimate person to take a ruling from. I personally am not able to argue with him because I know i am not knowledgeable enough to contend with his many years of experience, knowledge, and expertise. This is not a board of fiqh, nor are we faqih's. Leave that to those who are capable of doing so. As we all know or should know it is a very serious matter to give rulings in Islam, so we need to be careful in this regard and make sure we are not stating our own personal opinons, but referring to those that have knowledge. This thread is now closed. Jazak Allah khairen. |
| NS |
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