Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Ikrima |
| 02/14/01 at 01:00:43 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Is it just me or does anyone else here have a problem with sisters speaking at large gatherings in front of males? Specifically, I am referring to the many conferences put on by various organizations where a sister addresses a co-ed audience. What reminded me of this is the MSA seerah conference that was just posted. I noticed a sister's name as one of the speakers. Don't get me wrong, I believe that we can learn a lot from our sisters, however I think there are other, more proper avenues for this. Ma'ssalaama, Ikrima |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 02/14/01 at 03:23:34 |
| Assalamu Alaikum... once at a large public gathering of Muslim men and women, the speaker made a mistake. A woman at the very back immediately stood up amidst the entire gathering and corrected him. The speaker then acknowledged the mistake and thanked the woman for the correction. The gathering was Jummah Prayer, the speaker was Umar ibn Khattab RA. We all know this story. We also know that women would crowd the masjid and ask questions directly to the Prophet [saw] and were involved heavily in the educational and public affairs of the fledgling ummah. We know there were many women scholars in all Islamic disciplines, like Aisha, Umm Salamah, Asma bint Yazid (may Allah be pleased with them all) and many others. We know that assemblies of male scholars would seek out Aisha RA and other female scholars to learn from them during the history of this ummah. Are these assemblies of men with our female scholars of past analogous to the conferences we have today? Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't negate the fact that Muslim men, scholars of Shar'iah nonetheless, would go as groups and learn from these women. All these public interactions between women and men in the greatest days of the Ummah were done with the proper adab, professionalism and modesty requirements of course. If these requirements are fulfilled, what's the problem? It wasn't a problem for the great Muslim male scholars of our past. Perhaps the argument is that the brothers at these conferences of today are weak, particularly in lowering their gaze, and that because of this we shouldn't have women speakers at conferences. But should a female speaker who speaks, acts and dresses Islamically be excluded from teaching us in a large setting simply because her presence at the podium increases some people's awareness of a weakness within them that makes them uncomfortable? We have an educational legacy from the Prophet [saw], the men and women of the Sahaba and the generations that followed. And one could very reasonably argue that women speaking at conferences is well inside the bounds of this legacy. Besides, if it is still a concern, we can always set the conferences up physically to minimize improper scenarios that people are fearing. For instance, it's not necessary for the speaker to be directly in front of the male section. That can be changed if people think fitnah is going to happen or something like that. But even if the setup is the typical setup, and not to sound cavalier, but if the issue is difficulty on the part of the male audience in lowering the gaze, even though the sister comports herself Islamically, well, it's simple. Just turn our chairs around and listen to the words. Like Umar RA did from the old woman, we just might learn something. May Allah forgive me if I have said anything wrong and if I came across inappropriately, please forgive me. :) Wa alaikum salam... |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/14/01 at 10:01:18 |
| great post abdulbasir! |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/14/01 at 15:36:57 |
| Salaam, I also feel very uncomfortable with this. I believe that women should teach to women; and if a woman absolutely wants to tell something to the brothers, well she should ask another brother to speak on her behalf. She can also write books, create web sites, etc. There are other means to spread her message than standing in front of men and making a show of herself, astafighrollah. Someone was referring to Umar (radhiallahu anhu) being corrected by a woman. There is no analogy here, since Umar was the one standing in front and the woman was sitting behind. Yes, we can learn from women, but within the limits set by the shariah. Wassalam |
| NS |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 02/14/01 at 17:27:09 |
| Just to clarify, the example of Umar RA was given not as an analogy, simply an example of the public atmosphere prevailing in these greatest of times. And she did not ask a brother to speak on her behalf, nor did the eminent female scholars at the time. It has been mentioned that learning from women is fine, as long as it is according to the limits and means of Shar'iah. Is not the Shar'iah demonstrated to us in the example of the Prophet [saw] and the four rightly guided khalifahs RA? Just a thought... :) wa alaikum salam |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Zahra |
| 02/14/01 at 17:34:42 |
| slm I am more inclined to agree with Ikrima. Yes, that was a true incident with the woman and Omar ibn Khattab. But that was one incident and thus, not the norm and this situation has little to do with men seeking knowledge from women. The norm was if a man wanted to seek knowledge from a woman, they would speak with a hijab (partition, barrier) between them. Aisha (ra) always gave fatawa and offered advice, etc. *behind a hijab* (other than the one she wore). And furthermore, everyone would lower their gaze. I think your post is great Abdul Basir but I also think you fail to take some things into consideration. Like,,,if a woman will cause fitna in a man's chest (by speaking in front of him), then shouldn't that be avoided? In Islam, we all work together. It's not just, "well that's your problem, not mine." Just because it is halal, does not mean it's good or recommended. And we all know that some things that are halal can become huram if they cause one to stray away from the rememberance of Allah or cause fitna. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Arsalan |
| 02/14/01 at 18:09:13 |
| [quote]Aisha (ra) always gave fatawa and offered advice, etc. *behind a hijab* (other than the one she wore).[/quote]That is, from behind a veil or curtain. The wives of Rasulullah (pbuh) were mandated to cover the faces and hands at all times. By the way, the incident of Umar and the woman is not authentic. I think it was pointed out by someone a long time ago (assing?) on the board. Wassalamu alaikum. P.S. I'm not implying that what Ikrima said is either right or wrong. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/14/01 at 20:42:08 |
[quote]however I think there are other, more proper avenues for this. [/quote] walaikumsalam, what are the more proper avenues you are suggesting? |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/14/01 at 20:54:55 |
[quote]Salaam, I also feel very uncomfortable with this. [/quote] walaikum salam uncomfortable for some i'd agree but the question really is, is it haram? and i do not think that is a question we can answer on a message board. fiqh is better left to scholars inshallah. perhaps someone can gather some evidence on the views of reputable faqis... [quote] I believe that women should teach to women; and if a woman absolutely wants to tell something to the brothers, well she should ask another brother to speak on her behalf. [/quote] i think this point doesn't make sense with the own evidence of aisha ra and other muslim women throughout history who taught men. this statement is also extremely derogatory and insulting to women. they don't have anything to share to the world? their statements or thoughts don't count unless they come from a brother who has evaluated, sifted and reiterated her thoughts? [quote] She can also write books, create web sites, etc. [/quote] How many women are encouraged to do this? [quote] There are other means to spread her message than standing in front of men and making a show of herself, astafighrollah. [/quote] i'd advise us to read sister se7en's post about reading and judging other peoples minds and intentions. [quote] Umar was the one standing in front and the woman was sitting behind. Yes, we can learn from women, but within the limits set by the shariah. [/quote] If we go back to the time of the Salaf and earlier you'll note that women were always able to speak to men, they especially had access to the leaders of the community to the extent that rasullullah even put aside a whole day to teach women on a one to one basis...the khalifs always visited the companion's wives for advice and sharing of ideas. it seems like we are not even going back to the time of the sahaba or ras [saw] for our example but rather reaching backwards to jahaliyya or our own opinions. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| se7en |
| 02/14/01 at 21:39:13 |
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, Someone made an interesting comment to me today when discussing this, the person said "this is the reason why Islam won't get anywhere." I think we're suffering from a severe case of double standard-itis here. We can sit in class all day and look at our female professor in her mini without any problems, but when a sister gets up at the podium at a conference to make an announcement for the next session we hear big gasps of "astaghfirAllah..." It's the same in our masajid, "astaghfirAllah, you can see the sisters feet under the barrier!" and then at work the next day, "Hi Betsy, want some coffee?" I'm not saying this is true for everyone, but it is true for some, and it's something we need to consider. Someone made the comment that this shouldn't be done because of the weaknesses of our brothers. Instead of telling the sisters to step down from the podium, why don't we tell the brothers to shape up? What kind of logic is this? What next? The brothers are weak so sisters shouldn't show up to classes of 'ilm anymore? How far are we going to let the weaknesses of some steal the rights of others? We live in a society and a time where we should be happy that we have *anyone* who is equipped with enough knowledge to get up there and teach us *anything* about Islam. And if you dislike the thought of having a Muslim woman teach you something about Islam, I suggest *you* take the time and effort and energy to study Islam intensely and *you* devote your time to lecturing at these conferences. The few excellent speakers we do have barely have time to see their families, they suffer from exhaustion from traveling all over the place to try to feed us something anything that'll get us into this deen, and we finally have people who are sick and tired of seeing this who are willing and able to help out and to do something about the sickening condition of our ummah by attempting to enlighten us... and all I hear is "astaghfirAllah"... not "why is it that sisters are doing this?" not "where are the brothers?" You know what? AstaghfirAllah that we don't have enough Muslim men equipped with basic knowledge of this deen that we have Muslim women doing what's been traditionally considered their job. AstaghfirAllah that when we actually look at who's organizing these conferences and events and who's actually the serious students in many of the classes of 'ilm we find the ratio of sisters to brothers staggering.. AstaghfirAllah that women are being criticized for doing *too much*, and astaghfirAllah that this never seems to be the case with brothers in the United States today. You wanna do something for this deen? *You* be the one on the podium, *you* fulfill the needs the thirst the Muslims have for knowledge and enlightenment and motivation. And maybe, maybe if you do that, there won't be a need for sisters to get up there and you won't feel uncomfortable. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| akhan |
| 02/14/01 at 23:06:46 |
| Asalaamalaikum, here are a few excerpts from various sources that you may find interesting (Sorry it's a bit long): This one is from Jannah.org excerpted from the book 'The Ideal Muslimah' by Dr. Muhammad Ali Al Hashimi "One of the most distinguished women who took part in the battle of Uhud, if not the most distinguished of them, was Nasibah bint Ka'b al-Maziniyyah, Umm 'Umarah (May Allah be pleased with her). At the beginning of the battle, she was bringing water and tending the wounded, as the other women were doing. When the battle was going in the favour of the Muslims, the archers disobeyed the command of the Prophet (SAW), and this turned the victory into defeat, as the Qur'an described it: "Behold! You were climbing up the high ground, without even casting a side glance at anyone, and the Messenger in your rear was calling you back..." 3:153 At this point, Nasibah went forward, with her sword unsheathed and her bow in her hand, to join the small group who were standing firm with the Prophet (SAW), acting as a human shield to protect him from the arrows of the mushrikin. Every time danger approached the Prophet (SAW) she hastened to protect him. The Messenger of ALlah (SAW) noticed this, and later said, "Wherever I turned, to the left or the right, I saw her fighting for me." Her son 'Umarah also described what happened on that tremendous day: "On that day, I was wounded in my left hand. A man who seemed to be as tall as a palm-tree struck me, then went away without pursuing me to finish me off. The blood began to flow copiously, so the Messenger of Allah (SAW) told me, 'Bind up your wound.' My mother came to me, and she was wearing a waist-wrapper, which she had brought, for the purpose of wrapping wounds. She dressed my wound, whilst the Prophet (SAW) was looking on. Then she told me, 'Get up, my son, and fight the people.' The Prophet (SAW) said, 'Who could bear what you are putting up with, O Umm 'Umarah?' She said: The man who had struck my son came by, and the Messenger of ALlah (SAW) said, 'This is the one who struck your son.' I intercepted him and hit him in the thigh, and he collapsed. I saw the Messenger of ALlah (SAW) smiling so broadly that I could see his back teeth. He said, 'You have taken your revenge, O Umm 'Umarah!' Then we struck him with our weapons until we killed him, and the Prophet (SAW) said: 'Praise be to Allah (SWT), who granted you victory over him, gave you the satisfaction of taking revenge on your enemy, and let you see the vengeance for yourself." On this day, Nasibah herself received many wounds whilst she was fighting the people and striking their chests. The Prophet (SAW) saw her, and called to her son, "Your mother! Your mother! See to her wounds, may Allah (SWT) bless you and your household! Your mother has fought better than so-and-so." When his mother heard what the Prophet (SAW) said, she said, "Pray to Allah (SWT) that we may accompany you in Paradise." He said, "O Allah (SWT), make them my companions in Paradise." She said, " I do not care what befalls me in this world." Umm 'Umarah's jihad was not confined to the battle of Uhud. She was also present on a number of other occasions, namely the treaty of 'Aqabah, Al-Hudaybiyah, Khaybar and Hunayn. Her heroic conduct at Hunayn was no less marvellous than her heroic conduct at Uhud. At the time of Abu Bakr's Khilafah, she was present at Al-Yamamah where she fought brilliantly and received eleven wounds as well as losing her hand. It is no surprise that the Prophet (SAW) gave her the good news that she would enter Paradise, and that she was later held in high esteem by the khalifah Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq and his commander Khalid ibn Al-Walid and then by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (RA)!!! " [Reference: Chapter 6, pp. 142-153, in Hadith Literature: Its Origin, Development, Special Features & Criticism by Dr. Muhammad Zubayr Siddiqi (Sir Ashutosh Professor of Islamic Culture, Calcutta University; published by Calcutta University, 1961). This original book contains illustrations of ijazas issued by respective scholars. A revised edition is now available, rearranged and modified under the title, Hadith Literature: Its Origins, Development & Special Features published by Islamic Texts Society (Cambridge, 1993). The original edition is out of print. The revised edition of the book is available from http://www.islamicbookstore.com/islamic_books/hadith.html .] "History records few scholarly enterprises, at least before modern times, in which women have played an important and active role side by side with men. The science of hadith forms an outstanding exception in this respect. Islam, as a religion which (unlike Christianity) refused to attribute gender to the Godhead,1 and never appointed a male priestly elite to serve as an intermediary between creature and Creator, started life with the assurance that while men and women are equipped by nature for complementary rather than identical roles, no spiritual superiority inheres in the masculine principle.2 As a result, the Muslim community was happy to entrust matters of equal worth in God's sight. Only this can explain why, uniquely among the classical Western religions, Islam produced a large number of outstanding female scholars, on whose testimony and sound judgment much of the edifice of Islam depends. Since Islam's earliest days, women had been taking a prominent part in the preservation and cultivation of hadith, and this function continued down the centuries. At every period in Muslim history, there lived numerous eminent women-traditionists, treated by their brethren with reverence and respect. Biographical notices on very large numbers of them are to be found in the biographical dictionaries. During the lifetime of the Prophet, many women had been not only the instance for the evolution of many traditions, but had also been their transmitters to their sisters and brethren in faith.3 After the Prophet's death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge, and were approached for instruction by the other Companions, to whom they readily dispensed the rich store which they had gathered in the Prophet's company. The names of Hafsa, Umm Habiba, Maymuna, Umm Salama, and A'isha, are familiar to every student of hadith as being among its earliest and most distinguished transmitters.4 In particular, A'isha is one of the most important figures in the whole history of hadith literature - not only as one of the earliest reporters of the largest number of hadith, but also as one of their most careful interpreters. In the period of the Successors, too, women held important positions as traditionists. Hafsa, the daughter of Ibn Sirin,5 Umm al-Darda the Younger (d.81/700), and 'Amra bin 'Abd al-Rahman, are only a few of the key women traditionists of this period. Umm al-Darda' was held by Iyas ibn Mu'awiya, an important traditionist of the time and a judge of undisputed ability and merit, to be superior to all the other traditionists of the period, including the celebrated masters of hadith like al-Hasan al-Basri and Ibn Sirin.6 'Amra was considered a great authority on traditions related by A'isha. Among her students, Abu Bakr ibn Hazm, the celebrated judge of Medina, was ordered by the caliph Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz to write down all the traditions known on her authority.7 After them, 'Abida al-Madaniyya, 'Abda bin Bishr, Umm Umar al-Thaqafiyya, Zaynab the granddaughter of Ali ibn Abd Allah ibn Abbas, Nafisa bint al-Hasan ibn Ziyad, Khadija Umm Muhammad, 'Abda bint Abd al-Rahman, and many other members of the fair sex excelled in delivering public lectures on hadith. These devout women came from the most diverse backgrounds, indicating that neither class nor gender were obstacles to rising through the ranks of Islamic scholarship. For example, Abida, who started life as a slave owned by Muhammad ibn Yazid, learnt a large number of hadiths with the teachers in Median. She was given by her master to Habib Dahhun, the great traditionist of Spain, when he visited the holy city on this way to the Hajj. Dahhun was so impressed by her learning that he freed her, married her, and brought her to Andalusia. It is said that she related ten thousand traditions on the authority of her Medinan teachers.8 Zaynab bint Sulayman (d. 142/759), by contrast, was princess by birth. Her father was a cousin of al-Saffah, the founder of the Abbasid dynasty, and had been a governor of Basra, Oman and Bahrayn during the caliphate of al-Mansur.9 Zaynab, who received a fine education, acquired a mastery of hadith, gained a reputation as one of the most distinguished women traditionists of the time, and counted many important men among her pupils.10 This partnership of women with men in the cultivation of the Prophetic Tradition continued in the period when the great anthologies of hadith were compiled. A survey of the texts reveals that all the important compilers of traditions from the earliest period received many of them from women shuyukh: every major collection gives the names of many women as the immediate authorities of the author. And when these works had been compiled, the women traditionists themselves mastered them, and delivered lectures to large classes of pupils, to whom they would issue their own ijazas. In the fourth century, we find Fatima bint Abd al-Rahman (d. 312/924), known as al-Sufiyya on account of her great piety; Fatima (granddaughter of Abu Daud of Sunan fame); Amat al-Wahid (d. 377/987), the daughter of distinguished jurist al-Muhamili; Umm al-Fath Amat as-Salam (d. 390/999), the daughter of the judge Abu Bakr Ahmad (d.350/961); Jumua bint Ahmad, and many other women, whose classes were always attended by reverential audiences.11 The Islamic tradition of female hadith scholarship continued in the fifth and sixth centuries of hijra. Fatima bin al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn al-Daqqaq al-Qushayri, was celebrated not only for her piety and her mastery of calligraphy, but also for her knowledge of hadith and the quality of the isnads she knew.12 Even more distinguished was Karima al-Marwaziyya (d.463/1070), who was considered the best authority on the Sahih of al-Bukhari in her own time. Abu Dharr of Herat, one of the leading scholars of the period, attached such great importance to her authority that he advised his students to study the Sahih under no one else, because of the quality of her scholarship. She thus figures as a central point in the transmission of this seminal text of Islam.13 As a matter of fact, writes Godziher, 'her name occurs with extraordinary frequency of the ijazas for narrating the text of this book.'14 Among her students were al-Khatib al-Baghdadi15 and al-Humaydi (428/1036-488/1095).16 Aside from Karima, a number of other women traditionists 'occupy an eminent place in the history of the transmission of the text of the Sahih.'17 Among these, one might mention in particular Fatima bint Muhammad (d.539/1144; Shuhda 'the Writer' (d.574/1178), and Sitt al-Wuzara bint Umar (d.716/1316).18 Fatima narrated the book on the authority of the great traditionist Said al-Ayyar; she received from the hadith specialists the proud tittle of Musnida Isfahan (the great hadith authority of Isfahan). Shuhda was a famous calligrapher and a traditionist of great repute; the biographers describe her as 'the calligrapher, the great authority on hadith, and the pride of womanhood.' Her great-grandfather had been a dealer in needles, and thus acquired the sobriquet 'al-Ibri'. But her father, Abu Nasr (d. 506/1112) had acquired a passion for hadith, and managed to study it with several masters of the subject.19 In obedience to the sunna, he gave his daughter a sound academic education, ensuring that she studied under many traditionists of accepted reputation. She married Ali ibn Muhammad, an important figure with some literary interests, who later became a boon companion of the caliph al-Muqtadi, and founded a college and a Sufi lodge, which he endowed most generously. His wife, however, was better known: she gained her reputation in the field of hadith scholarship, and was noted for the quality of her isnads.20 Her lectures on Sahih al-Bukhari and other hadith collections were attended by large crowds of students; and on account of her great reputation, some people even falsely claimed to have been her disciples.21 Also known as an authority on Bukhari was Sitt al-Wuzara, who, besides her acclaimed mastery of Islamic law, was known as 'the musnida of her time', and delivered lectures on the Sahih and other works in Damascus and Egypt. 22 Classes on the Sahih were likewise given by Umm al-Khayr Amat al-Khaliq (811/1408-911/1505), who is regarded as the last great hadith scholar of the Hijaz.23 Still another authority on Bukhari was A'isha bint Abd al-Hadi.24 Apart from these women, who seem to have specialized in the great Sahih of Imam al-Bukhari, there were others, whose expertise was centered on other texts. Umm al-Khayr Fatima bint Ali (d.532/1137), and Fatima al-Shahrazuriyya, delivered lectures on the Sahih of Muslim.25 Fatima al-Jawzdaniyya (d.524/1129) narrated to her students the three Mu'jams of al-Tabarani.26 Zaynab of Harran (d.68/1289), whose lectures attracted a large crowd of students, taught them the Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the largest known collection of hadiths.27 Juwayriya bint Umar (d.783/1381), and Zaynab bint Ahmad ibn Umar (d.722/1322), who had travelled widely in pursuit of hadith and delivered lectures in Egypt as well as Medina, narrated to her students the collections of al-Darimi and Abd ibn Humayd; and we are told that students travelled from far and wide to attend her discourses.28 Zaynab bint Ahmad (d.740/1339), usually known as Bint al-Kamal, acquired 'a camel load' of diplomas; she delivered lectures on the Musnad of Abu Hanifa, the Shamail of al-Tirmidhi, and the Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar of al-Tahawi, the last of which she read with another woman traditionist, Ajiba bin Abu Bakr (d.740/1339).29 'On her authority is based,' says Goldziher, 'the authenticity of the Gotha codex ... in the same isnad a large number of learned women are cited who had occupied themselves with this work."30 With her, and various other women, the great traveller Ibn Battuta studied traditions during his stay at Damascus.31 The famous historian of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, who tells us that he had studied under more than 1,200 men and 80 women, obtained the ijaza of Zaynab bint Abd al-Rahman for the Muwatta of Imam Malik.32 Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti studied the Risala of Imam Shafii with Hajar bint Muhammad.33 Afif al-Din Junayd, a traditionist of the ninth century AH, read the Sunan of al-Darimi with Fatima bin Ahmad ibn Qasim.34 Other important traditionists included Zaynab bint al-Sha'ri (d.524/615-1129/1218). She studied hadith under several important traditionists, and in turn lectured to many students - some of who gained great repute - including Ibn Khallikan, author of the well-known biographical dictionary Wafayat al-Ayan.35 Another was Karima the Syrian (d.641/1218), described by the biographers as the greatest authority on hadith in Syria of her day. She delivered lectures on many works of hadith on the authority of numerous teachers.36 In his work al-Durar al-Karima,37 Ibn Hajar gives short biographical notices of about 170 prominent women of the eighth century, most of whom are traditionists, and under many of whom the author himself had studied.38 Some of these women were acknowledged as the best traditionists of the period. For instance, Juwayriya bint Ahmad, to whom we have already referred, studied a range of works on traditions, under scholars both male and female, who taught at the great colleges of the time, and then proceeded to give famous lectures on the Islamic disciplines. 'Some of my own teachers,' says Ibn Hajar, 'and many of my contemporaries, attended her discourses.'39 A'isha bin Abd al-Hadi (723-816), also mentioned above, who for a considerable time was one of Ibn Hajar's teachers, was considered to be the finest traditionist of her time, and many students undertook long journeys in order to sit at her feet and study the truths of religion.40 Sitt al-Arab (d.760-1358) had been the teacher of the well-known traditionist al-Iraqi (d.742/1341), and of many others who derived a good proportion of their knowledge from her.41 Daqiqa bint Murshid (d.746/1345), another celebrated woman traditionist, received instruction from a whole range of other woman. Information on women traditionists of the ninth century is given in a work by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (830-897/1427-1489), called al-Daw al-Lami, which is a biographical dictionary of eminent persons of the ninth century.42 A further source is the Mu'jam al-Shuyukh of Abd al-Aziz ibn Umar ibn Fahd (812-871/1409-1466), compiled in 861 AH and devoted to the biographical notices of more than 1,100 of the author's teachers, including over 130 women scholars under whom he had studied.43 Some of these women were acclaimed as among the most precise and scholarly traditionists of their time, and trained many of the great scholars of the following generation. Umm Hani Maryam (778-871/1376-1466), for instance, learnt the Qur'an by heart when still a child, acquired all the Islamic sciences then being taught, including theology, law, history, and grammar, and then travelled to pursue hadith with the best traditionists of her time in Cairo and Mecca. She was also celebrated for her mastery of calligraphy, her command of the Arabic language, and her natural aptitude in poetry, as also her strict observance of the duties of religion (she performed the hajj no fewer than thirteen times). Her son, who became a noted scholar of the tenth century, showed the greatest veneration for her, and constantly waited on her towards the end of her life. She pursued an intensive program of learning in the great college of Cairo, giving ijazas to many scholars, Ibn Fahd himself studied several technical works on hadith under her.44 Her Syrian contemporary, Bai Khatun (d.864/1459), having studied traditions with Abu Bakr al-Mizzi and numerous other traditionalists, and having secured the ijazas of a large number of masters of hadith, both men and women, delivered lectures on the subject in Syria and Cairo. We are told that she took especial delight in teaching.45 A'isha bin Ibrahim (760/1358-842/1438), known in academic circles as Ibnat al-Sharaihi, also studied traditions in Damascus and Cairo (and elsewhere), and delivered lectures which eminent scholars of the day spared no efforts to attend.46 Umm al-Khayr Saida of Mecca (d.850/1446) received instruction in hadith from numerous traditionists in different cities, gaining an equally enviable reputation as a scholar.47 So far as may be gathered from the sources, the involvement of women in hadith scholarships, and in the Islamic disciplines generally, seems to have declined considerably from the tenth century of the hijra. Books such as al-Nur al-Safir of al-Aydarus, the Khulasat al-Akhbar of al-Muhibbi, and the al-Suluh al-Wabila of Muhammad ibn Abd Allah (which are biographical dictionaries of eminent persons of the tenth, eleventh and twelfth centuries of the hijra respectively) contain the names of barely a dozen eminent women traditionists. But it would be wrong to conclude from this that after the tenth century, women lost interest in the subject. Some women traditionists, who gained good reputations in the ninth century, lived well into the tenth, and continued their services to the sunna. Asma bint Kamal al-Din (d.904/1498) wielded great influence with the sultans and their officials, to whom she often made recommendations - which, we are told, they always accepted. She lectured on hadith, and trained women in various Islamic sciences.48 A'isha bint Muhammad (d.906/1500), who married the famous judge Muslih al-Din, taught traditions to many students, and was appointed professor at the Salihiyya College in Damascus.49 Fatima bint Yusuf of Aleppo (870/1465-925/1519), was known as one of the excellent scholars of her time.50 Umm al-Khayr granted an ijaza to a pilgrim at Mecca in the year 938/1531.51 The last woman traditionist of the first rank who is known to us was Fatima al-Fudayliya, also known as al-Shaykha al-Fudayliya. She was born before the end of the twelfth Islamic century, and soon excelled in the art of calligraphy and the various Islamic sciences. She had a special interest in hadith, read a good deal on the subject, received the diplomas of a good many scholars, and acquired a reputation as an important traditionist in her own right. Towards the end of her life, she settled at Mecca, where she founded a rich public library. In the Holy City she was attended by many eminent traditionists, who attended her lectures and received certificates from her. Among them, one could mention in particular Shaykh Umar al-Hanafi and Shaykh Muhammad Sali. She died in 1247/1831.52 Throughout the history of feminine scholarship in Islam it is clear that the women involved did not confine their study to a personal interest in traditions, or to the private coaching of a few individuals, but took their seats as students as well as teachers in pubic educational institutions, side by side with their brothers in faith. The colophons of many manuscripts show them both as students attending large general classes, and also as teachers, delivering regular courses of lectures. For instance, the certificate on folios 238-40 of the al-Mashikhat ma al-Tarikh of Ibn al-Bukhari, shows that numerous women attended a regular course of eleven lectures which was delivered before a class consisting of more than five hundred students in the Umar Mosque at Damascus in the year 687/1288. Another certificate, on folio 40 of the same manuscript, shows that many female students, whose names are specified, attended another course of six lectures on the book, which was delivered by Ibn al-Sayrafi to a class of more than two hundred students at Aleppo in the year 736/1336. And on folio 250, we discover that a famous woman traditionist, Umm Abd Allah, delivered a course of five lectures on the book to a mixed class of more than fifty students, at Damascus in the year 837/1433.53 Various notes on the manuscript of the Kitab al-Kifaya of al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, and of a collection of various treatises on hadith, show Ni'ma bin Ali, Umm Ahmad Zaynab bint al-Makki, and other women traditionists delivering lectures on these two books, sometimes independently, and sometimes jointly with male traditionists, in major colleges such as the Aziziyya Madrasa, and the Diyaiyya Madrasa, to regular classes of students. Some of these lectures were attended by Ahmad, son of the famous general Salah al-Din.54 " |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/15/01 at 06:50:34 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Not knowledgable enough to comment on the main point here I'm afraid but I wanted to pick up on the double standards point raised by Sr seven. There does seem to be an element of hypocrisy if brothers are reluctant to have a Muslim sister educate them but accepting of the situation of working with female colleagues and in some cases female bosses. I just wanted to make the point that no matter what environment you happen to be in (be it Western or Muslim) a woman remains a woman and your attitude towards them should be the same. Hence if you happen to chit chat to Besty regularly at work, why do you suddenly change and remain silent when you find yourself amongst Muslim sisters? You may not agree with Sisters speaking at conferences but at least let's not be hypocritical about it. Just to clarify, this wasn't directed at anyone, just an observation I wanted to make. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Kathy |
| 02/15/01 at 08:49:06 |
| slm Just a thought to add to Br.Khalid's. Before I became Muslim many brothers sat and talked with me about Islam. After I reverted- all of a sudden they did not wish to anymore. Which is sad- because we are very weak in the beginning- and that is when we need even more help! |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Anonymous |
| 02/15/01 at 13:38:15 |
| Salaam, Jannah: isn't it strange that, according to you, AbdulBasir's post was "a great post", but when I expressed my opinion, it suddenly became a "fiqh issue"?... Something to think about. Se7en: I'm not a man, I'm a woman. So I'm not of those who have double standards. By the way, I would be curious to know how many brothers would like to see their wife standing on a podium in front of 200 non-mahram men? |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/15/01 at 23:37:23 |
| walaikum salaam wrt anonymous: [quote] isn't it strange that, according to you, AbdulBasir's post was "a great post", but when I expressed my opinion, it suddenly became a "fiqh issue"?... [/quote] What can i say the brother's post was a great post, the points he brought up were relevant to the original question of "Is it just me or does anyone else here have a problem with sisters speaking at large gatherings in front of males?" I don't think it's fair for us to mix the issues of our opinion and the fiqh opinion about this, that's why I suggested we take the discussion down a different route instead of continuing arguing about it's legality without any knowledge. [quote] I'm not a man, I'm a woman. So I'm not of those who have double standards. [/quote] You don't have to be a man to have double standards. [quote] By the way, I would be curious to know how many brothers would like to see their wife standing on a podium in front of 200 non-mahram men?[/quote] We could take a survey of the board and see what the statistics come up with, Perhaps if we get more than 86.3% we can declare this haram. <--- sarcasm intended If someone has a "problem with this issue" then please bring your shariah evidence from the scholars and send it to the people in charge of those conferences. Remember if it's haram all those women now and in the past are going to be punished for it. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Kashif |
| 02/15/01 at 14:20:53 |
| Question #7576: Is it allowed for a brother to organise i talk and the speaker is a sister. the issue is on women in islam but the sister is talking to every on (brothers and sister)i thought it's not but the organisors say it is allowed but they ask for evidence is there any on this issue Answer: Praise be to Allaah. We put this question to Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen (may Allaah preserve him) who answered as follows: In our opinion this is not permissible except in cases of necessity, and on the condition that the men cannot see her. There should be a screen between her and them, and she should not soften her voice too much, because her voice may be ‘awrah. Women are not allowed to say Tasbeeh out loud in the prayer – if the imaam makes a mistake – instead they are commanded to clap [to draw the imaam’s attention to a mistake], lest their voices be recognized. At this point we would ask the brothers who are organizing these lectures: what need is there for a woman to give a lecture in front of a group of people which includes men? We hope that the answer will not be because they want to prove that Islam does not oppress women or to prove that they are open-minded and enlightened! Or any other weird and mistaken reasons that can never be used to justify opening the doors to fitnah (temptation) which Islam seeks to shut firmly. We constantly repeat our advice: organize your activities within the framework of sharee’ah. And Allaah is the Guide to the Straight Path. And Allaah knows best. Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Jibreen (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/15/01 at 15:20:50 |
| slm, thanx kashif i'll show this to our imam and ask him more about it, btw there are other scholars like qaradawi who don't believe a woman's voice is awrah. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| assing |
| 02/15/01 at 16:57:38 |
| As salaamu alaykum, without trying to add anymore fuel too such a sensative topic {i even saw some people catching feelings}, for the shaikh fatwa is sufficient. However, i just wanted to point out as al-akh Arshad alluded to regarding the hadeeth about Umar and the woman that it is weak, hence it is not permissable to use this as a daleel. The hadeeth is as follows {i posted this a while back for those who can remember}:" the following story attributed to the rightly guided khalifah Umar ibn Al Khattab narrated by Al Haythami in the book "Majm'a Az Zwaa'id {vol 4. pg 286-287} from Masrooq who said: Umar ibn Al Khattab ascended the mimbar of the messenger (salallahu alayhi wasalam) and said "O you people, how greatly you all have increased the suduq {mahr-dowry} of the women, and if it was {out of} taqwa or generosity {that you all did this}, you all would not have proceeded them {the sahabahs} to it, and i do not know why the men exceeded 400 dirhams in the women's' dowry", he then descended, so a woman from the tribe of Quraysh disagreed with him and said "O ameer al mu'mineen, you prohibited the men from giving more the 400 dirham in dowry?", he said: yes, she said did you not hear Allah's' statement "and you have given one of them a Cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) as Mahr, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?" {An Nisa' :20}, then he said "O Allah forgive me, everyone has more understanding than Umar, so he changed his opinion and the ascended the mimbar and said "O people i used to prohibit you all from exceeding 400 dirham for the dowry, so whoever wants to give from his wealth he likes {then do so}, Abu Ya'la said: i think he said "whatever pleases him, then let him do so" , Al Haythami {who narrated this hadeeth} said that there is some weakness in Abu Ya'la. Furthermore, Shaikh Nasirdeen Al Albani said in his book "Irwa Al Ghaleel" {vol. 6 pg. 346, 348} as for this hadeeth that it is not only daef, but also munkar, as narrated by Mujaalid from As Sha'bee from Umar narrated Al Haythami's book {who said the hadeeth in munqata' i.e. missing a link in the chain of narrators}, I say {ie. Al-Albani} in addition to its missing link, it is daef because of Mujaalid and he is ibn Saeed and he is not qawee {strong}, plus the text of the hadeeth itself is munkar {i.e. it goes against more authentic hadeeth} because Umars' advice against being excessive with the mahr does negate the meaning of the ayat, and there is no time to explain all this because I wrote an article about this many years ago in an islamic magazine" Assalam Aleykum Thank you for this enlightenment, but could you present the summary of the article you wrote on it, for the benefit of those of us who do not have access to the magazine in which you wrote the article? From: hisham Sent: 12/6/2000 9:50 AM 2 of 2 As salaamu alaykum, these were not my words, but rather i was quoting that of shaikh Nasirdeen Al-Albani's, and i myself do not know where this can article he wrote can be found. However, the following may enlighten you as to why the hadeeth is "munkar"; when shaikh Al-Albani graded the hadeeth is "munkar" it does not mean evil as what might directly come to mind, but rather a "munkar" hadeeth is when narrator who is weak contradicts one who is trustworth, e.g. in the sunan of Abu Dawud there is a hadeeth Narrated Talhah ibn Musarrif which says" I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wiping his head once up to his nape {top of his neck}." However, this narration is "munkar" because first of all the narrator in the hadeeth is unknown and secondly the hadeeeth itself contradicts other authentic ahadeeth that show the rasul (saw) never wiped on his neck when making wudu. Likewise, this hadeeth which in actuallity is commonly known by the muslim masses as the one in which a woman from Quraysh objected to Umar by saying "O ameer al mu'mineen, you prohibited the men from giving more the 400 dirham in dowry?", he said: yes, she said did you not hear Allah's' statement "and you have given one of them a Cantar (of gold i.e. a great amount) as Mahr, take not the least bit of it back; would you take it wrongfully without a right and (with) a manifest sin?" {An Nisa' :20}, Umar then said "everyone has more understanding of the deen than Umar", and in some narrations "the woman is right and Umar is wrong".................to the end of the hadeeth. Shaikh Al Albani said this hadeeth was "munkar" not because it had no basis but because it contradicted with the authenic hadeeth narrated by Abu Dawud, At Tirmidhee, An Nasa'i, Ibn Hibban and other where AbulAjfa' as-Sulami said: Umar (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a speech to us and said: "Do not go to extremes in giving women their dower, for if it represented honour in this world and piety in Allah's sight, the one of you most entitled to do so would have been the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) did not marry any of his wives or gave any of his daughters in marriage for more than twelve uqiyahs". And with is in mind i would draw to you all attention here is a common mistake i see many brothers {and sisters} make when they get into a debate with another person; they often get caught up in the argument itself without veryfing the hadeeth {and many times it is based on a weak one, as we saw in this dicussion} the debate surrounds around or accepting false principles which the other party puts forth, and thus going through a wirlwind of argument reaching no where, when the whole issue could have been easily resolved from the beginning by stating the hadeeth or the premise which the argument is based upon is itself false. |
| NS |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Ikrima |
| 02/15/01 at 18:02:00 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Jazumullahu Khair to all those who have and will continue to respond. Looks like I stirred up a whole lot of emotions! I sincerely apologize for this. This was not my point at all. I only wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I do. From some of your responses, I feel like some of you brothers and sisters think I'm a chauvinist. AGAIN, I honestly believe that there are many sisters that are MUCH more knowledgeable than the brothers. YET, I am not totally comfortable with the idea of a sister speaking in front of co-ed crowds. As someone pointed out earlier, the sisters who are speaking these days are not following the same etiquette that the sahabiyat used. This issue should be of primary importance. Regarding jannah's comment, "If someone has a "problem with this issue" then please bring your shariah evidence from the scholars and send it to the people in charge of those conferences. Remember if it's haram all those women now and in the past are going to hell for it." When I said I had a "problem" with it, I didn't mean I thought it was Haraam or Makrooh or anything else like that. I just don't like the general idea of it all. I think it is best to avoid such situations. I have no problem with a sister educating me, AS LONG AS the proper adab are followed. Regarding Anonymous's comment, "I would be curious to know how many brothers would like to see their wife standing on a podium in front of 200 non-mahram men?" Good question! Ma'ssalaama. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Al-Basha |
| 02/16/01 at 03:10:34 |
| Salamu aliakom, You know it's interesting because there are a lot of double standards being thrown back and forth. Basically I think Se7en's post sums it up. Where are the brothers? Well lemme speak for myself first, I'm not saying I have amazing amounts of fiqh/sunnah knowledge and if I did I'd say that I'd probably be too shy to go up and speak about a certain topic on the podium. Yeah I know it's a lousy excuse but I'm sure there are other brothers out there who possibly have the same problem? Yes? No? Actually I am taking a speech class in college now, and according to my professor when we complete the course I'm supposed to feel a lot more at ease about public speaking. So sisters speaking at conferences? Yes if they have sufficient Islamic knowledge why not? Or at least until some of the knowledgble brothers out there muster up the courage to speak up. Also the comment about some brothers being weak, I'm assuming thats refering to possible attraction between the listener and speaker? Honestly if that is a problem with the brother, get up and leave the room. And I would say to that brother that they need to work on their focusing skills. Ideally you are focusing on what is being said, and not on who is saying it. Right? Wa Allahu A3laam |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Saleema |
| 02/17/01 at 16:24:59 |
| Assalam ualykum, I agree with everything that se7en has said. My God, I am not religious enough for some of the people I know and for others I'm too religious. Do you know how hard that is? Do you have any idea of what I have to put up with being the president of MSA?!? Do you know how hard it is being a girl and trying to run a Muslim organization, to try to get people involved? If I was a guy, I would have gotten a much better response, I'm pretty sure of it. A couple of days ago I found out why some of the sisters weren't coming to msa meetings when they could have been coming. I don't talk to guys much so I can't tell about them but I bet they have the same objections. So this sister starts criticizing FPC. (Our youth organization at masjid). She says that she doesn't like the idea of mixed meetings between sisters and brothers. Then how are we to run things? She didn't have an answer for that. She ASSUMED that our meetings go off of topic and we talk about haram things, meaning we might flirt. That is not true, the people that work on those committees are some of the best people I know. Our meetings are very professional and the guys sit on one side and the girls on another. We have never gone off of topic. That really hurt when she said that, that people actually think that way when they don't even bother to come and see what kind of environment we are working in. That made me really angry and sad at the same time. Then another girl joins her in attacking FPC and MSA and she actually has the nerve to say that we don't observe proper hijab! I didn't say this to her but she was the one sitting there bareheaded. Why the different standards? Then the other girl who does wear hijab has the nerve to agree with her! when later she was talking about a friend of hers (a guy) I couldn't believe my ears. She said that he has a low self esteem and thinks that he's ugly. So she tells him no you aren't ugly, you are 'soooooo cute' and plus he's got money, all he needs to do is ask any girl out and she will say yes in a heartbeat. He still disagrees with her ans so she says, "I would marry you in a heartbeat." Right, and I don't have proper adab, the msa officers don't have proper adab, the FPC officers don't have proper adab? We never talk about things like this! Astaghferullah for us?! Astaghferullah on her! And so i asked her what are her solutions are and she doesn't have any, but she uses the facilities offered by the FPC. Then she and her friend say that in the masjid people should behave more islamicaly. I don't know what she meant by it. I guess its okay for them two and hundreds of others like them to be more Islamic in the masjid than outside of it. It's okay to look males and females in the faces at work and college but it's forbidden for women and men to get together to try to solve problems for the community with the proper islamic adab. Why don't the males veil their minds??? huh? Muslim women who cover themselves do their part and that is all that is required of them, so it's the men's responsibility to control the ticker in their chest. Today's women, they can just be as perverted and flirtacious as men. You know how many girls I know of who go crazy when they hear the name of Hamza Yousuf? So he shouldn't go up there and give speeches either. Or wait, it's the women's fault that their nafs is so weak? How come the same standard can't be applied to Muslim women who have the nerves, guts, and ability to get up there and speak? The only male that has given me support is a brother named Uthmane from sighai (from Africa) about MSA. (He's majoring in shariah and fiqh. Cool eh?) But still that's not enough support. So I'm just not going to keep msa going. Why should I? When people talk about me in a derogatory manner? It is derogatory, that here I am, with clean intentions, and people are whispering behind my back and assuming that I am some kind of flirt since I talk to Muslims guys during meetings. That hurts, that really hurts. If it weren't for me, these oh so pure Muslims wouldn't have a room to pray in. they can work this out with the administration next year, because inshallah I have no problem praying in any clean place. So these sisters then say that it's another matter to be president of some other organization because it's college. and you need something on your resume when you are a college student trying to find a job in your field. So i guess my muslim brothers would have no problem with me working as an editor for the college newspaper and bossing people around I guess. I am so sick of this double speak. People need to set their priorites straight and stop being so hypocritical. Wassalam |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Kashif |
| 02/17/01 at 21:27:20 |
| bismillah. assalaamu alaikum These are some scattered thoughts i've had which i'll try to put together. #1 In every geographical area i can think of, there are more male speakers than female speakers, so why is there a need for sisters to address brothers? In my old uni's Islamic Society [UK equivalent of MSA] the arrangement was to have a brother do a main lecture that all were invited to in the middle of the week, and have a sister come in to do a talk *specifically* for the sisters in their room at another time in the week. #2 Brothers who feel really strongly that sisters shouldn't speak in front of a mixed audience have the option of not attending these events. In one of our big annual conferences, one of the speakers is a sister. When it is her turn to speak, I just get up and leave the room until she has finished speaking. The sister is knowledgable and mature enough to understand that it isn't anything personal, and that my actions are based upon what i understand to be correct in Islam. Before i make my next point, let me protect my back by saying that i believe the fault is largely with the brothers. #3 Why are sisters getting so angry about the double-standards here? Do they wish the brothers to hold Muslim women & disbelieving women to the same standard? Is it the case that the pattern of thinking of Muslim women and non-Muslim women is alike? I hope not. Let me explain. If the sister finds the brother not speaking too much to her, she should acknowledge that this is insha'llah from his respect of her as a Muslimah. And lets not forget that lots and lots of sisters will be deeply offended and perhaps even disturbed if a brother starts speaking freely to them. They don't like it. At my old uni, the head of the sisters initially suggested that we conduct our meetings via e-mail because she didn't like the meetings to be in person. So please have mercy on your brothers - they maybe slightly confused. In the case of non-Muslim women, they are usually offended if someone doesn't speak to them - because thats the way they've been brought up. If the brother is now getting too loose in his interactions with her, then the problem is with the brother. The brother has to balance within himself the following qualities i think (and of course i could be wrong): - he needs to know that his sisters are much more deserving of kindness and assistance than the kuffaar women. This is a command from Allah azza wa jall (cf. end of surah Muhammad] - he needs to behave around kuffar women in a way that doesn't isolate himself and send out a bad image of Islam, yet at the same time maintain his "distance" from them. Kashif Wa Salaam PS The over-riding argument for me personally is this: A sister mentioned in a separate thread the issue of "qut'ul-asbaab" in Islam - that our religion blocks off those avenues that lead to sin. The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said that he had left no trial after him greater for men than women. If a sister stands up on a podium in front of brothers - no matter how pious they are, you are wilfully giving shaitaan 40-60 minutes to whisper whatever evils in your head that he wills. And don't think that Shaitaan is stupid. He isn't. He knows exactly what buttons to press to twist your mind the wrong way. Are you willing to open yourself to him like this? |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| BrKhalid |
| 02/17/01 at 23:01:38 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Hmmm…some really interesting stuff here. Okay I’m going to try and summarise both sides but forgive me if I make any errors or if I simplify too much. On one side you’ve got the argument that having a sister talking in front of brothers causes too much of a temptation and this should be avoided because however well intentioned the brothers are, Shaitan is always there whispering into people’s hearts. On the other hand, there’s the argument that if brothers can’t control the whisperings of Shaitan then that’s their problem and not the sister there talking in front of them trying to educate them. If that’s the case where does that leave us? What do we do? What’s the solution? Anyone got any suggestions? As for the general double standards point, I personally was trying to highlight that actions towards all women should be the same regardless of whether they are Muslim or Non Muslim. If you have no need to talk to a Muslim Sister then you should not be talking to a Non Muslim woman unnecessarily. If at work or uni you need to talk to a Non Muslim woman than you shouldn’t treat your Muslim sister any differently if you’re trying to do your job. The real issue however comes when you start to “chit-chat”. If this is something you wouldn’t do with a Muslim Sister, then why are you excused with a non Muslim? As Br Kashif points out a brother should be careful to maintain his “distance” when confronted with such a situation. As for expecting more of our Muslim sisters than non Muslim women, I don’t think that can really be in contention. As Muslims as a whole we are held to a higher standard due to the guidance we have received and the knowledge we have obtained. Expect more from your Muslim Sisters yes but don’t treat them and other women differently. And Allah knows best |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| se7en |
| 02/18/01 at 00:30:00 |
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, Br. Khalid, excellent synopsis. Maybe we should end this and move on to bigger and better eh? |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/18/01 at 00:48:55 |
| [slm] br khalid you should have joined the diplomatic corps ;) i did speak to our imam about this in brief, and may discuss it with him more when he returns from hajj, if anyone is from our community and would like to know what he said let me know inshallah |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Arsalan |
| 02/18/01 at 00:56:07 |
| Wa'alaikum assalam Jannah, Err ... I'm not from your community, but I would be *very* interested in knowing what he said! |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| jannah |
| 02/18/01 at 01:34:34 |
| he didn't give an 'official type of fatwa' kind of thing when i was talking to him that's why i don't want to post it publically, he just made some comments inshallah when we do go into it more in detail i can post the arguments. |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| Saleema |
| 02/19/01 at 11:18:56 |
| Assalam ualykum, Let me know the what the Imam said too Jannah. Thank you. :) wassalam |
| Re: Sisters speaking at conferences |
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| chachi |
| 02/23/01 at 21:53:50 |
Hmmm if she is with a close relative or her husband then no blame can be cast on her..i think the laws on mahram are there to prevent blame being cast on peoples characters Also it depends on age and surroundings eg a speach by a alimah outside on a podium is more acceptable than one in a crowded hall where she is standing next to loads of men and is the centre of attention |
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