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can anyone help?
gift
03/08/01 at 10:43:53
assalam u alaikum i have a problem in that i believe 'inshallah' that i am ready to wear hijab - but when i attempt to discuss this with my mother she refuses to. i'm 20 years old and i don't want to have to wait until i get married or something - i want to do this for Allah SWT not my husband or anyone else. at the same time i don't want to argue with or upset my mother - i am aware that many people feel this is just an excuse, but for me this is a real problem. anyway , if anyone could give me some advice i'd be really grateful. wa'alaikum as salaam

Re: can anyone help?
Arsalan
03/08/01 at 10:51:24
[slm] There's no obedience for disobedience to Allah (swt).  If you are convinced that you should start wearing the hijaab, then say bismillah and do it.  Your mother will not like it.  She might even say mean things to you at the beginning.  But she'll get over it, insha Allah, with time. This is what happened to me when I grew the beard.  It's tough at first.  But your parents know you're 20!  They don't really have too much control over you any more.  So they will eventually give up. And then slowly, bi idhnillah, they will actually start appreciating what you do, and become impressed with you so much that they'll even mention it to their friends, with pride, that their daughter covers :) Again, I'm speaking from personal experience! May Allah help you. Wassalamu alaikum.

me! me!
princess
03/08/01 at 11:19:22
walikumas'salaam warahmatullah :) [quote]i want to do this for Allah SWT not my husband or anyone else.  at the same time i don't want to argue with or upset my mother - i am aware that many people feel this is just an excuse, but for me this is a real problem.[/quote] walikumas'salaam warahmatullah :) dude..i went through the EXACT SAME THING :) when i started wearin hijab 6 yrs ago (aahhh..:)) my mom wasn't ok with it..she didn't see why i had to wear it, or wanted to wear it even..and i had A LOT of issues over it with her, time after time after time..:( i also thought that maybe i shouldn't, because i was not pleasing my mom..but then i realized that i wasn't doing anything wrong..covering oneself far'd..(O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 33:59) i was obeying Allah..so, i had that to back me up..when i told her that..she just finally gave up and accepted it :) for my mom it was also more of a cultural thing..generally..in india and pakistan..u don't find many hijabi's/jilbabi's/niqabi's..in the states and other countries..this is all norm..maybe not as well accepted..but still a norm :) anyways..my advice, is to go ahead and wear the  hijab..inshAllah, ur mom will get cool with it..and won't have problems, inshAllah..:) inshAllah this helped..:) ma'salaam ;-D ps..arsalan..what personal experience r u talkin about? ??? just wonderin :)

Re: me! me!
Arsalan
03/08/01 at 11:29:04
[slm] [quote]generally..in india and pakistan..u don't find many hijabi's/jilbabi's/niqabi's..[/quote]This is changing very rapidly ... alhamdulillah!  I was stunned (literally) to see hordes of niqaabis at Tariq Road in my last visit to Karachi on the night of Eid.  And no, they were not all old ladies or lower class people (from what I could tell). [quote]ps..arsalan..what personal experience r u talkin about?  just wonderin [/quote]The beard.

The Gift of Hijab
AbuKhaled
03/08/01 at 14:15:24
Dear Sister Gift, Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah. May Allah (swt) keep firm your resolve, and reward you for both your niyyah [intention] and determination to solicit His (awj) pleasure. I ask that Allah (swt) forgive me if I write anything wrong in what follows, for it is not by intent, and I ask the correction of my Sisters if I say anything inappropriate or lacking softness and gentility regarding this subject. I would firstly echo the hadith which forms a central principle in Islam, that Brother Arsalan opened his post with. Namely that – as we heard on the authority of those who took from the Masters (raa) - it is reported that our Beloved Prophet (saw) said that there is no obedience to the created which involves disobedience to the Creator (awj) [aw qama qal]. In this magnificent Deen of yours, it has been stressed that the ta’at [obedience] to the parents is not as many of them like to think, absolute, and unqualified. No. Rather, our obedience to them is based upon their obedience to Allah (swt) and His (awj) Rasul (saw). That is the ideal. Unfortunately, the reality is often somewhat different, In our times, many of our relationships with our parents are based not on Islam, instead Islam is invoked whenever it serves a purpose. Some parents are less concerned about Islam than their children (NB: I am *not* alluding to yours, astaghfirullah!) yet when their children wish to do the right thing, yet doing so displeases the parents, suddenly the parents will metamorphosise into Mufti Islam and start quoting you ayaat and hadith about obedience! Subhan’Allah. So, you face a trade-off. Pleasing Allah (swt) may result in the displeasure of your mother. This is a situation where your loyalty to Allah (swt) must preponderate, for you have reached the point of knowledge about the duty, and conviction in it. Your only possible avenue for mitigating circumstances is the upset of your mother. Allah (awj) knows best if this is an acceptable extenuation. I would suggest a few things to maybe bear in mind, may Allah (swt) make these words words of benefit and prescience: Damage limitation. If you *know* your mother will react negatively, don’t add fuel to the fire by, for example, getting provoked into an argument about it. One of our teachers – hafiDhahullah - in addressing the issue of how children correct their parents, mentioned the following pearl. He used the example of television, and how some children become convinced that it should be gotten rid of, yet their parents don’t so incline towards their view. So they have endless heated debates and arguments with their parents, which often weigh heavily on the hearts of the parents. Not because the child is necessarily wrong, but because of *how* they conducted themselves with their parents. He said – and here he was now speaking in generality, not specifically about television -  that once you’ve courteously told them about a matter  being haram a few times, then leave it, for whilst Allah ta’ala will reckon with them about their sins, if because of you they experience so much as an iota of pain within, Allah ta’ala may withhold jannah from you for a mighty long time, wallahu a’alm. Such is the sanctity of the parental right upon us. So tread carefully with she who brought you into this world, for her right upon you is great, by what Allah (swt) has granted her. If your commencement of this obligation is to result in her being upset, then at least let it be for only that which you have undertaken in order to please Allah (swt), and not anything you might have done in opposition to Islam in your treatment of her, as a result of her being upset. Examples of a breach of the necessary adab you are supposed to have with your other would include: arguing with her, insulting her, belittling her own adherence to Islam, her upbringing of you, etc. All of this is to be avoided, and insha’Allah you are not of those who would lapse into that, raheemaka’Allah. Sometimes – and wallahu a’alam if it plays a role here – parents feel bad that their children are taking their Deen from a source other than them, especially if it is an aspect that they themselves don’t practice. It creates a really awkward uncomfortable feeling within, so if this is a factor (and I’m not saying it is), then you need to be doubly compassionate and considerate of her feelings, whilst at the same time not compromising your ultimate objective, which is to please your Lord (swt). Everything comes second, for your mother will not be the one who reckons with your affair in the akhira. Also, decisions like wearing the hijab are often unnecessarily stigmatized by parents, by being interpreted as representing some massive symbolic shift towards a radical change in the child’s whole attitude towards life. They let their thoughts run away with them, that “Oh no, what’s happening to my little girl?!” Because they themselves were not a part of this decision, and are not a part of the process of change, they can wonder whether it is heralding the dawn of a new era where not everything you do, they will have a hand in, and this can be hard too, for it signals some level of independence from them, whereas up till now everything you did, or were, was done with the them. And now you have taken a step on your own, having let go of their guiding hand. Naturally, if you look at it from their view (just to get a glimpse of what they are seeing in you), they wonder about where this is headed, moreso if you seem to walking down a road that they themselves didn’t/haven’t, for it then becomes harder for them to determine where you are going, and this uncertainty can be unsettling for a parent, no doubt. What can then lead to frustration is the realization by the parent that they really have no recourse to reason against you, for you have Islam on your side. Of course none of this is necessary, and it is an over-reaction. All you’re doing is fulfilling a duty your Creator (awj) has enjoined upon you. Your love for you mother hasn’t altered, she is no less in your eyes, she is still the mother you behold, and marvel at for all that she has done for you, may Allah (swt) reward her. Moreover, there are some matters in Islam, in which a plurality of opinions can all be correct. But, there are those matters in which there is *only* one single truth. Hijab is one of them. There is no ikhtilaf [difference of opinion] concerning it’s hukm [rule/law], so by you deciding to wear it, it can be perceived as a comment on those who don’t, and obviously if they don’t, then it will trouble them what it means that you consider you must. Yes, I know it is ridiculous, and you aren’t at all passing a judgement on your mother – Allah (awj) bless her – but it is one infuriating reality of our time that hijab is seen as a symbol of piety. It isn’t. It is atrocious that Sister’s who don’t wear hijab are considered less pious than those who do. Not because it isn’t a sin not to wear it, but because it is only *one* aspect of your whole Deen. So how then can this one single act be taken as a defining criteria for the whole Islam of a Sister, a’uzubillah? This is unfair, unjust, and there needs to be a readjustment in such thinking. I know of Sisters who wear hijab who date. I know Sisters who don’t wear hijab who wouldn’t ever consider being alone in a room with a non-mahrem! My point is that wearing hijab does not make one a pious Muslimah *in and of itself*. Piety requires much one than a single outward action, yet how often is it witnessed the difference in treatment of Sisters who wear it and Sisters who don’t, for no justifiable reason, ma’adallah! How must that make those Sisters who don’t, feel? They have feelings, so why tread all over them? Is that your Islam? We have to realize the times we live in. It is not so easy as “Here, here’s the Quran and Sunnah, go figure.” No, many many Sisters *truly* believe that just dressing modestly (in the rational sense) is what is required. This is a result of a massive indoctrination that transcends generations. So we should not become so merciless that we assume insincerity having just shoved an article which mentions the ayaat and ahadith relevant to this issue, under some poor confused Sister’s nose, and demand she change her ways and she doesn’t immediately submit. A’uzubillah, where is our empathy? We are the Ummah of the one (saw) who was sent as a rahma [mercy] to mankind. Accordingly, know that taqwa [God-consciousness] is not established by the fulfillment of one obligation alone, rather it is the combination of your inward and outward ahwal [states] in obedience to your Lord (swt) that aids this. So just as a Sister may be remiss in not wearing the hijab, so might another Sister who does wear it, be remiss by being harsh, arrogant, and self-righteous towards her, in her indignation, judgementalism and by manifesting disappointment, for neither are these Islamic traits.   I think there is another fact, which a number of us who approach the da’wa in a very naïve romanticized and idealistic fashion, would do well to realise. That is, that we’re dealing with a positive (i.e. how it is, not how it should be) reality, so we need to be careful, lest we dent our own efforts in an attempt to be righteous. The issue of hijab is not like the issue of salat, where *anyone* who doubted that it was fard could not be taken seriously, for it is indisputable to *both* the common wo/man and the scholar. Hijab is not like this. Yes, it is unquestionably an obligation, and you will find *no* faqih of any distinction *ever* who said otherwise, which I say in full consciousness and aware of making such a massive blanket generalization, which is kind of the point (because normally I’m extremely wary of doing so). But, and here’s the thing. That during the tumult of this decline we’ve suffered and the resultant hemorrhaging of the Muslim mindset that displaced Islam as our reference point in life, hijab, unlike say, salat and siyam [fasting] (to mention but two examples), *did* get dislodged from the *lay* Muslim’s mind as being one of the wajibaat [obligations]. To the extent that whole generations of Muslims have lived otherwise pious lives (wallahu a’lam) oblivious to the fact that hijab was mandatory upon them. They *genuinely* believed it wasn’t. Now, why the concept of hijab underwent such remodeling yet issues like salat and siyam remained untouched is another discussion for another time, albeit an intriguing question to ponder over if you haven’t already. Anyway, these were just a few thoughts, of which I don’t know if any even apply to your situation Sister Gift. I pray Allah ta’ala facilitates for you a path that eases your entry into this. So, when the time comes, embrace your mother, and remind her nothing has changed in that regard. If it transpires that you put the hijab on, and there is a tension, and then it reaches boiling point, at the moment that you feel you want to say something in your defence, but you know that doing so might just stoke the fire, instead, stop, pause for a moment, and then smile at her tenderly, embrace her, remind her how much you adore her, and tell her you’re still her daughter, the same old same old. You’ve just got a funky new look. :-) Ma’assalam, Abu Khaled

Re: can anyone help?
Kathy
03/09/01 at 09:02:44
slm Did anyone else notice that AbuKhaled used the word "funky?".... I think he let us see a part of his self!

Re: can anyone help?
gift
03/09/01 at 10:09:19
assalam u alaikum thank you very much everyone!  'inshallah' i will be able to overcome this obstacle soon + get a funky new look!!! i'll keep you all posted 'inshallah' jazak allahu khairun

Hey hey hey!
AbuKhaled
03/09/01 at 10:38:06
Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu my dear Sister's Kathy & Gift, <Did anyone else notice that AbuKhaled used the word "funky?"....> Hey hey hey! Could you er focus less on the trees and keep your attention on the wood please! *ahem* Is funky not part of my terrain or something? :-P <I think he let us see a part of his self!> I have no idea what that is hinting at, lol! What perception must you have of me to make such a remark I am afraid to imagine! ;-) <inshallah' i will be able to overcome this obstacle soon + get a funky new look!!!> Okay, now I'm embarrassed. I hope I didn't say something inappropriate. I was just trying to end on a lighter tone than the weighty words that preceded it, not making a comment on my Sisters. I apologise if that was misconstrued. Way to go Abu Khaled...not! Lol. Abu Khaled

Funky?
bhaloo
03/09/01 at 10:58:08
slm Funky?  What's next, "That's phat" ?  ;)  lol

funky monkey..
princess
03/09/01 at 11:25:20
[quote]Funky?  What's next, "That's phat" ?  ;)  lol[/quote] walikumas'salaam warahamtullah :) hahaahah..guys..those r old skol words.."that's phat" is played out..;) try, "i'm down with tha" :) i like funky..it's gotta good clean zing :) keep on using it brotha abu k :) ma'salaam ;-D

Re: can anyone help?
BrKhalid
03/09/01 at 11:48:34
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]keep on using it brotha abu k[/quote] Absolutely I mean lets cut him some slack here guys ;-) The paragraph which preceded the "funky new look" was wonderful ;-) Funky or not though, Sr gift, may Allah [swt] make it easy for you ;-)

The Funk goes on…
AbuKhaled
03/09/01 at 12:05:51
Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah to you all, Sister Kathy, see what you’ve started now?! Thanks! Lol. <I mean lets cut him some slack here guys> BrKhalid, are we related? Lol. <The paragraph which preceded the "funky new look" was wonderful> Tabarak’Allah for your kind words. As for the rest of you, hmph! *ahem* I’ll have you know I’m a bit of a Maestro of Funkiness round these ways, as it happens... No, really, its true... Honest... Please believe me... Abu "FunkMasterFlex" Khaled PS: If you doubt my utter funkiness you could always take the Abu "Spond" K Funky Test...Bring it on!

Re: can anyone help?
Magableh
03/09/01 at 12:28:46
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Brother Abu "FunkMasterFlex" Khaled, LOL...Hahahahahaha. :)  Can I take the Abu "Spond" K Funky test? lol Wa'assalam Serena *wiping tears of laughter from eyes* :)

Re: The Funk goes on…
princess
03/09/01 at 14:26:55
[quote]Abu "FunkMasterFlex" Khaled[/quote] as'salaamualikum :) that's awesome :) hahahahh :) ma'salaam ;-D

Re: funky monkey..
bhaloo
03/09/01 at 14:46:08
slm [quote]"that's phat" is played out..;) try, "i'm down with tha" :)  [/quote] Yikes, Se7en is going to be disappointed. Looks like Abu "FunkMasterFlex" Khaled made the Madina news. ;)

Re: can anyone help?
BrKhalid
03/09/01 at 17:15:06
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]I’ll have you know I’m a bit of a Maestro of Funkiness round these ways, as it happens...[/quote] lol The world watch out when the Funkmaster hits town!! ;-) [quote]BrKhalid, are we related? [/quote] No idea, but I'm just waiting for Ibn Khaled to come on to the scene so we can confuse even more people!! ;-)

Re: can anyone help?
savannah
03/09/01 at 20:05:43
slm, I know my mother was very shocked and upset when i first came home from the mosque wearing hijab. I know she misses seeing the way i used to wear my hair before i started wearing hijab but she accepts it now. You need to do what is right for you. You are doing as Allah wishes. Dont even try to discuss it with your mum. If you try to, she will never listen and nothing will be resolved. It is not being disrespectful to her if she is trying to discourage what Allah has commanded. Hopefully in time she will get used to it. I do have one question....did you convert to islam? In some ways that makes it even harder especially when family has seen you dress a certain way for so long. Take care:-)

Re: can anyone help?
gift
03/12/01 at 06:15:46
assalam u alaikum sister savannah actually i was born into a muslim family - did you convert? wa'as salaam

Re: can anyone help?
Kathy
03/12/01 at 09:13:12
What does "funky" mean anyway? I grew up in the sixties....

Re: can anyone help?
Barr
03/21/01 at 05:52:57
MashaAllah, ukhti.. I can understand how you feel. When I wanted to start wearing the hijab, I knew that my mom won't be too pleased with. My dad, alhamdulillah, in his silence, would love that I wear the hijab, but I had tough opposition from my mom. At first, I had to sneak out secretly out of the house with the hijab on. During those years, not many sisters wear the hijab (especially teenagers!). In fact, I would be the first one (on my maternal side of the family) to wear the hijab. But my mom found out, and she REALLY wasn't happy and words like extremist came out, and she has her own fears (like me taking it off) But ukhti.. just bear with it. Continue doing what you believe. And inshaALlah, He would give you the strength and patience to follow through. We have the Almighty behind us and supporting us.. who else do we need? I don't know what your family's situation is.. but for me.. I just  continued wearing the hijab. And worse, my relatives made fun and tease as well... like my hair's gonna fall out, I'll look old, noone's gonna marry me etc etc etc. But I just kept queit. But the hijab stays on. Ukhti... ALlah would give you the strength. Make lots of du'a for Him to soften your mom's heart... ALlah listens to our every whisper. Even if it's unspoken. Just make lots of du'a, be patient, have faith in Allah.. and even if you have to cry everyday... do it... but don't be aggresive to your mom or hurt her with sharp words... just go ahead and put the scarf on. And trust Allah. Alhamdulillah, my mother now wears a hijab, and so do most of my aunts. Alhamdulillah, my mom encourages my 13 year old sister to wear the hijab, whereas whe I was that age, I had fierce opposition from her. She has gone to haj, and I can see her interest in Islam is increasing and I see a softer heart...  All the teasing stopped as well... all of these takes time, and ALlah's mercy... InshaALlah khair ukhti :-) He is testing our intentions, patience strength and faith... to fortify it.

Re: can anyone help?
Nazir_Ismail
03/22/01 at 07:39:48
Sister, your mother has no right to ask you to go against the religion of Allah. She should be ahshamed of herself for trying to prevent her daughter from wanting to be a true muslim women. How can a mother deny her daughetr the hijaab? Would she rather you walk around like these kaafir women with all these strange hairdo's? What if you wanted to wear a mini-skirt? Would she allow to to wear this? I am sadened by your plight, but you must stand you toy your. if it upsets her then so be it. But remember its not your mother who will question you on the days of Judgement, its gonna be Allah. You answer to Allah only, and so therfeore you do what Allah has commamnded you to do. Can I ask, what natonality are you?

Re: can anyone help?
Learner
03/22/01 at 19:23:43
slm :) Yet another excellent post Abu Khaled, Masha'Allah. [quote]It is atrocious that Sister’s who don’t wear hijab are considered less pious than those who do. Not because it isn’t a sin not to wear it, but because it is only *one* aspect of your whole Deen. So how then can this one single act be taken as a defining criteria for the whole Islam of a Sister, a’uzubillah? This is unfair, unjust, and there needs to be a readjustment in such thinking...My point is that wearing hijab does not make one a pious Muslimah *in and of itself*. Piety requires much one than a single outward action, yet how often is it witnessed the difference in treatment of Sisters who wear it and Sisters who don’t, for no justifiable reason, ma’adallah![/quote] This is exactly what I was thinking of as well but just couldn't put it into words the way you have managed to do. This is the exact point I raised up with the 'educated' brother I told you about yesterday and Alhamdulillah he's started to see things differently after going over the specific points you told me. Masha'Allah slowly but surely its having an effect on him. [quote]Now, why the concept of hijab underwent such remodeling yet issues like salat and siyam remained untouched is another discussion for another time, albeit an intriguing question to ponder over if you haven’t already.[/quote] Cor blimey, you really do know how to get me scratching my head. ??? Remember your words "Whenever akhi, whenever."?   ;-D So, here's one of those moments I'm using that privilege  8-) I've pondered upon the issue for some time but now I'd like some real enlightment, so for the benefit of myself and everybody else on the board please give us the lowdown. Jazaks bro. ;) Perhaps a separate thread might be better. wlm :)

Re: can anyone help?
gift
03/23/01 at 07:27:17
[slm] [quote] Can I ask, what natonality are you? [/quote] i am originally Pakistani - but i was born in England [wlm]

Re: can anyone help?
Nazir_Ismail
03/23/01 at 08:10:39
Your Pakistani? That explains it. Pakistani parents have this MASSIVE complex about what other people are thinking or saying. Most of what they do is done so that "others say good" about them, whether this pleases Allah or not. Pakistani's also, for some reason, try not to make thier children too religious. They try and get thier daughters not to wear the Hijaab etc, and rather to wear a scarf around thier neck. Dont really know why. After all, pakistan was created because they wanted a separate muslim country. Now that they have it, they seem to be embarrased about Islaamic Adab. Your mother should be ashmed of herself, and you have every right to wear the hijaab. She has no right to even question you over the issue. You are doing something that all women should be doing, and all muslim men should want the sisters to be doing, which is dressing according to the Sunnah. You should go out and buy a Hijaab which you like, one like those that Abu Khaled wears! Sister, between me and you, Abu Khaled is a pretty hip break dancer!!! Only kidding!!!! Astagfirallah!!! Forgive me brother Abu K! Serously though, go out and buy a Hijab, you have no reason to consult your mother about this, as she has no right to stop or oppose you wanting to dress like a true muslim woman. Dress like a Muslim woman, as it will please Allah. If it upsets your mother, than so be it. She is in the wrong not you. If she gets abusive towards you over this than have patience with her, because remember, that culture she has come from has taken a long time to develop, and you wont be able to eradicate it in an instance. You need much patience, but a VERY strong will. Inshallah your mother will realise her errors, and see that you have only done this to please Allah. Ask you mother, does she think the Hijab is a traditional thing which you wear when you get married, or does she see it as a part of the religion of Allah, that all women must wear this, whether married or not? And another thing, ask her whats more important to her,pleasing the pakistani community, or pleasing Allah. Sister please forgive me if i have said anyting to upset you. Jazzakuallah khair.

Spoonfeed, no
AbuKhaled
03/23/01 at 08:32:57
Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu my beloved Brother Learner. May Allah (swt) increase our sensitivity towards our Sisters. <I've pondered upon the issue for some time but now I'd like some real enlightment, so for the benefit of myself and everybody else on the board please give us the lowdown. Jazaks bro.> Wa iyyakum, tabarak’Allah. As willing as I am to try and provide you with an answer – and tawfeeq is only ever through help from Allah (awj) -  it wouldn’t be fair for you to make me do *all* the legwork now, would it? ;) I will ask you a question, to make you think some more, and insha’Allah by phrasing the question in a very precise and specific way, it will hopefully direct you towards the answer, deal? Okay, let’s first clarify the issue in hand, so we confine ourselves to the *particular* point that we wish to address, and not digress onto some tangent. So, the issue is *not* the reasons some Sisters give for why they don’t wear hijab. That is a separate – albeit related - matter. No, what will help us to understand why such remodeling occurred is if we look to the outcome of it, which should act as an indicator of what took place. So, my question to you is: What is the *reasoning* you have found used by those Sisters who don’t view hijab as an obligation [fard/wajib]? I want you to think hard on this, and not answer with what might immediately come to mind. Else you might be answering a different question to the one I’m asking. Remember, I’m not asking *why these Sisters don’t wear hijab* but *what is their reasoning used to support the view that it is not an OBLIGATION?” I wish you well! Abu Khaled PS: I am not intending for this to be insensitive or judgmental to any Sisters here. I am merely entertaining the Brother’s sincere question, so please, do not take my question as personal to yourself if you find yourself in the situation of not yet wearing the hijab, may Allah (awj) bless you for all your efforts to strive in His (awj) path. Raheemaka’Allah!

Re: can anyone help?
gift
03/23/01 at 10:09:26
[slm] 1. [quote] . Pakistani parents have this MASSIVE complex about what other people are thinking or saying. Most of what they do is done so that "others say good" about them, whether this pleases Allah or not. [/quote] Brother Nazir i think this is true, but only to a certain extent. my parents have alhamdulillah never seemed to worry about what other people are thinking, so i'm not too sure if this is the reason with regards to this issue. p.s your niyah was inshallah to give advice - so i don't feel offended at all. 2. [quote] why these Sisters don't wear hijab* but *what is their reasoning used to support the view that it is not an OBLIGATION?? [/quote] to be honest Brother Khalid i have never heard any specific reasoning over why these sisters don't believe the hijab to be fard, but i now that it is, and inshallah may Allah swt purify my intentions and give me the strength to begin wearing the hijab.:-) [wlm]

Re: can anyone help?
Learner
03/23/01 at 14:34:19
slm :) [quote]What is the *reasoning* you have found used by those Sisters who don’t view hijab as an obligation [fard/wajib]?[/quote] Bro Abu Khaled, I'd like to give a reasonable response to this question as I'v come across various different reasons and excuses as to why our sisters do not wear the hijaab. Unfortunately time does not permit me to reply right now at this moment because I'm going away for the weekend. However I would still like to meet the challenge in trying to figure it out, so don't give me the answer yet but hold onto it until I''ve answered. Jazaks. :) In the meantime, this should give everybody else the chance to respond as well ;) wlm :)

Re: can anyone help?
eleanor
03/26/01 at 18:37:36
[quote]Sister, your mother has no right to ask you to go against the religion of Allah. She should be ahshamed of herself for trying to prevent her daughter from wanting to be a true muslim women. How can a mother deny her daughetr the hijaab? [/quote] Assalamu Alaikum Brother Nazir_Ismail, I felt a twinge in my heart as I read this post from you. My dear mother, who is Catholic, doesn't want me to become Muslim, but not for her own selfish reasons, only because she cares for and is worried about me. In the country I come from Islam is viewed as a religion full of people like in the film "not without my daughter". My poor mother is convinced if I wear a scarf or become Muslim I will end up being beaten or held hostage. Yes, I need to talk to her, to inform her and help her understand what Islam is, but at the moment I am NOT angry with her and have no negative feelings towards her because I know her reasons. I hope your comments were posted towards Muslim mothers. In this context, I can understand where you're coming from. hope I've made sense and not insulted you in any way. I just felt I needed to address the issue on behalf of my mother. Eleanor

Re: can anyone help?
se7en
03/26/01 at 19:55:27
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, some random thoughts on this.. It's real easy to tell a person to ignore, disobey, and hurt someone they care about for the sake of Islam, but that's something that is so difficult to do.  You have to think about what it's like to be in this persons place.  Yes, of course, there's no disobedience to the Creator in obedience to creation.  But we have emotional attachments to people, we love and care for people even if they are doing wrong or telling us to do wrong, and it's difficult to go up against people we care about and whose opinion matters to us. Imagine you're a woman who wants to become Muslim, but whose husband does not.  You love this man, you have children together, but he rejects Islam.. Imagine you're a convert to Islam whose whole family turns their back on you, and rejects this deen you take as truth.. Imagine you're a young Muslim woman whose own mother, who birthed your frame, doesn't want you to do what you know is right.. What we have to do in these situation is *not* trash the party that's holding people back from their Islam.  That's not going to do anything but cause a hardship to the person whose struggling to do right and make them feel torn between two sides.. what we have to do is encourage, advise, lend strength.. We all have different tests and struggles in our lives.. don't underestimate or make light of these situations.. can you imagine the difficulty of being in one of these people's places?  Some of our brothers and sisters are actually there, they're fighting and struggling with more sabr and endurance than any of us... it takes courage and guts and strength to do what you know is right, even when you are in open rebellion against those you care about... We should be grateful for the tests that Allah has protected us from and pray for patience and strength in the ones we do encounter.. Also, man, we just need to use hikma when giving advice... understand what it's like to be in this persons situation and speak to them with that in mind.. know what the best way to approach them is.. know how to encourage and how to comfort.. that's the best kind of advice you can give.. otherwise, if they want a static answer, they can just look in a book... speaking to a person as an individual, based on their experiences and their life, is what makes advice *good* advice. just random thoughts.. wAllahu 'alam wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah

Re: can anyone help?
gift
03/27/01 at 07:33:07
[slm] [quote] It's real easy to tell a person to ignore, disobey, and hurt someone they care about for the sake of Islam, but that's something that is so difficult to do.  You have to think about what it's like to be in this persons place.  Yes, of course, there's no disobedience to the Creator in obedience to creation.  But we have emotional attachments to people, we love and care for people even if they are doing wrong or telling us to do wrong, and it's difficult to go up against people we care about and whose opinion matters to us. [/quote] Thankyou se7en this is exactly how i feel!! [wlm]

Re: can anyone help?
Learner
04/20/01 at 08:38:24
slm  :) Well, I’m finally back from that long weekend…well, when I said weekend I meant a desi weekend! :D  On a serious note - Sorry about the delay in responding, just got caught myself entangled in trying to do too many things at the same time…literally I just took more than I could bite.   [quote] I’m not asking *why these Sisters don’t wear hijab* but *what is their reasoning used to support the view that it is not an OBLIGATION?”[/quote] Funny this question should prop up at such an opportune time. A couple of weeks back there was a conference held here locally for muslim women  by the An-Nisaa Society UK. I had never heard of them before but thought that this would be a great event to take my mother to as she rarely gets the chance to go to any conference or talk. I accompanied my mother to the conference and intended on dropping her off and picking her up again after the event finished, but at the dropping off point I noticed quite a few brothers walking in and out of the conference room hence giving the impression that this wasn’t a conference exclusively for women but men as well. Since I also wanted to benefit from the gathering I decided to stay and accompanied my mother to the conference hall. Once there, I was just taken aback by what I saw. I was literally gob smacked and didn’t know what to make out of the conference. What I could see was that there were a panel of women on stage while one particular woman at that time was delivering her speech on “Treatment of Muslim Women”. The shocking thing being that non of them were wearing the hijaab!!! Three of them wore the traditional salwar kames (but still exposing their hair and neck) while the other two wore ‘smart’ fashionable suites. The women were seated at the front of the hall and the men at the back (behind the women).  I had observed that in the entire conference hall of about 70-80 women, only 4 had hijaabs on, one of them being my mother and the other three were similar aged women. After listening to what they were blabbering on about for a while, it occurred to me who they were - a feminist group under the Islamic banner. You could well imagine my shock to all this. They covered a vast array of subjects dealing with the treatment of Muslim women by the Muslims themselves. Though not talked about as a subject in it self, within some of these discussions, a few remarks to the hijaab were made by one of the speakers (who also happens to be the Principal of a community college). She said that more Muslim women need to be educated regarding the Qur’an so that women would be able to make commentary on the Qur’an and enlighten the rest of the Muslim women about the status that Islam has given to women. I agreed to most of the things she ‘said’ but then came the killer statement that extinguished all her merits. She said that “…the men have always had an upper hand in interpreting the Qur’an because it was not allowed according to custom for a female to interpret the Qura’n…the ‘maulvis’ have used the Qur’an for their own selfish motives and have imposed their own cultural laws on women to keep us at bay, one such example is the hijaab. The maulvis tell us that it is clear in the Qur’an that women have to cover up with a ‘chador’ over our head – where as in fact they read the verses out of context. They never tell us the full story in case we start asking questions and start to think liberally the way Allah wants us to think. These verses were revealed specifically for the wives of the prophet (saw) and were in no way binding upon all the other women…but the moulvis have used the hijaab as a tool to keep us trapped in the past and remain subservient to all men...” It was at this point that I lost my patience and walked towards the exit while giving an indication to my mother that I’m about to leave. My mother quickly joined me and it was only then that I realised that my mother was more shocked than I was. That was traumatic experience for me – to find feminists using the Islamic slogan to achieve their own goals. I suppose it was something that made me realise to what extent the kuffar have succeeded and how gullible our own Muslims can be. May Allah (swt) save us from this fitna. Apart from these feminists, I have also come across some sisters who do not think hijaab (the physical covering of the women’s body) is fardh because to them hijaab is more of an internal matter of the heart. So they think that as long as they are honest, humble, truthful and do not blatantly try to attract men’s attention then the physical covering is not necessary. I think they get their understanding partly from the feminists. Other than the kind of sisters I’ve already mentioned, the remaining vast majority usually fall into two categories. First are those who are actually not aware that the hijaab is fardh but think that it is only a recommended act. Secondly there are those who know its fardh but just haven’t got the courage to wear it at the moment for numerous reasons. May Allah (swt) give my beloved sisters the thawfeeq, strength and courage to wear the hijaab. Ameen. Now that I’ve finished ranting on how about some enlightenment Abu Khaled. ;) Wlm  :)

Re: can anyone help?
BrKhalid
04/19/01 at 17:59:03
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I have to admit I'm pretty curious about what Br Abu Khaled has to say on the subject too! [quote]These verses were revealed specifically for the wives of the prophet (saw) and were in no way binding upon all the other women…but the moulvis have used the hijaab as a tool to keep us trapped in the passed and remain subservient to all men...”[/quote] Sad to think that some sisters actually think this way :( Nice to have you back Br Learner

Re: can anyone help?
se7en
04/20/01 at 00:40:19
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh, this is not uncommon.  Feminism and female-oriented religion (like neo-paganism/wicca, which focuses on goddesses) are considered backlash or reactionary to 'male-dominated' religion.  This I can understand as a response to the Judeo-Christian tradition, in which God na'udhubillah is considered male... and which have century upon century an entire legacy of abuse mistreatment and straight up anti-female sentiments rooted in the religion itself... what we have to do is educate ppl like this as well as non-Muslims who see Islam as anti-female about basic principles like: - the fact that in Islam a certain gender is not attributed to God, na'udhubillah - the fact that a male-dominated elite/clergy does not exist and has never existed - the fact that, though the roles of male and female are complementary as opposed to identical, one is not spiritually superior to the other - the fact that hijab is not male-imposed - the fact that, unlike all other Western religions, Islam produced a large number of female scholars who helped build the foundation of our understanding of Islam today... who indeed did interpret the Quran, transmitted ahadeeth, made fatawa etc.. some good info on women scholarship: "After the Prophet's death, many women Companions, particularly his wives, were looked upon as vital custodians of knowledge, and were approached for instruction by the other Companions, to whom they readily dispensed the rich store which they had gathered in the Prophet's company. The names of Hafsa, Umm Habiba, Maymuna, Umm Salama, and A'isha, are familiar to every student of hadith as being among its earliest and most distinguished transmitters.  In particular, A'isha is one of the most important figures in the whole history of hadith literature - not only as one of the earliest reporters of the largest number of hadith, but also as one of their most careful interpreters. In the period of the Successors [tabi'een], too, women held important positions... Hafsa, the daughter of Ibn Sirin, Umm al-Darda the Younger (d.81/700), and 'Amra bin 'Abd al-Rahman, are only a few of the key women traditionists of this period.  Umm al-Darda' was held by Iyas ibn Mu'awiya, an important traditionist of the time and a judge of undisputed ability and merit, to be superior to all the other traditionists of the period, including the celebrated masters of hadith like al-Hasan al-Basri and Ibn Sirin. 'Amra was considered a great authority on traditions related by A'isha. Among her students, Abu Bakr ibn Hazm, the celebrated judge of Medina, was ordered by the caliph Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz to write down all the traditions known on her authority. After them, 'Abida al-Madaniyya, 'Abda bin Bishr, Umm Umar al-Thaqafiyya, Zaynab the granddaughter of Ali ibn Abd Allah ibn Abbas, Nafisa bint al-Hasan ibn Ziyad, Khadija Umm Muhammad, 'Abda bint Abd al-Rahman, and many other members of the fair sex excelled in delivering public lectures on hadith. These devout women came from the most diverse backgrounds, indicating that neither class nor gender were obstacles to rising through the ranks of Islamic scholarship. For example, Abida, who started life as a slave owned by Muhammad ibn Yazid, learnt a large number of hadiths with the teachers in Median. She was given by her master to Habib Dahhun, the great traditionist of Spain, when he visited the holy city on this way to the Hajj. Dahhun was so impressed by her learning that he freed her, married her, and brought her to Andalusia. It is said that she related ten thousand traditions on the authority of her Medinan teachers. Zaynab bint Sulayman (d. 142/759), by contrast, was princess by birth. Her father was a cousin of al-Saffah, the founder of the Abbasid dynasty, and had been a governor of Basra, Oman and Bahrayn during the caliphate of al-Mansur. Zaynab, who received a fine education, acquired a mastery of hadith, gained a reputation as one of the most distinguished women traditionists of the time, and counted many important men among her pupils. This partnership of women with men in the cultivation of the Prophetic Tradition continued in the period when the great anthologies of hadith were compiled. A survey of the texts reveals that all the important compilers of traditions from the earliest period received many of them from women shuyukh: every major collection gives the names of many women as the immediate authorities of the author. And when these works had been compiled, the women traditionists themselves mastered them, and delivered lectures to large classes of pupils, to whom they would issue their own ijazas. In the fourth century, we find Fatima bint Abd al-Rahman (d. 312/924), known as al-Sufiyya on account of her great piety; Fatima (granddaughter of Abu Daud of Sunan fame); Amat al-Wahid (d. 377/987), the daughter of distinguished jurist al-Muhamili; Umm al-Fath Amat as-Salam (d. 390/999), the daughter of the judge Abu Bakr Ahmad (d.350/961); Jumua bint Ahmad, and many other women, whose classes were always attended by reverential audiences. The Islamic tradition of female scholarship continued in the fifth and sixth centuries of hijra. Fatima bin al-Hasan ibn Ali ibn al-Daqqaq al-Qushayri, was celebrated not only for her piety and her mastery of calligraphy, but also for her knowledge of hadith and the quality of the isnads she knew. Even more distinguished was Karima al-Marwaziyya (d.463/1070), who was considered the best authority on the Sahih of al-Bukhari in her own time. Abu Dharr of Herat, one of the leading scholars of the period, attached such great importance to her authority that he advised his students to study the Sahih under no one else, because of the quality of her scholarship. She thus figures as a central point in the transmission of this seminal text of Islam. As a matter of fact, writes Godziher, 'her name occurs with extraordinary frequency of the ijazas for narrating the text of this book.' Among her students were al-Khatib al-Baghdadi and al-Humaydi (428/1036-488/1095). Aside from Karima... one might mention in particular Fatima bint Muhammad (d.539/1144; Shuhda 'the Writer' (d.574/1178), and Sitt al-Wuzara bint Umar (d.716/1316). Fatima narrated the book on the authority of the great traditionist Said al-Ayyar; she received from the hadith specialists the proud tittle of Musnida Isfahan (the great hadith authority of Isfahan). Shuhda was a famous calligrapher and a traditionist of great repute; the biographers describe her as 'the calligrapher, the great authority on hadith, and the pride of womanhood.' Her great-grandfather had been a dealer in needles, and thus acquired the sobriquet 'al-Ibri'. But her father, Abu Nasr (d. 506/1112) had acquired a passion for hadith, and managed to study it with several masters of the subject. In obedience to the sunna, he gave his daughter a sound academic education, ensuring that she studied under many traditionists of accepted reputation. She married Ali ibn Muhammad, an important figure with some literary interests, who later became a boon companion of the caliph al-Muqtadi, and founded a college and a Sufi lodge, which he endowed most generously. His wife, however, was better known: she gained her reputation in the field of hadith scholarship, and was noted for the quality of her isnads. Her lectures on Sahih al-Bukhari and other hadith collections were attended by large crowds of students; and on account of her great reputation, some people even falsely claimed to have been her disciples. Also known as an authority on Bukhari was Sitt al-Wuzara, who, besides her acclaimed mastery of Islamic law, was known as 'the musnida of her time', and delivered lectures on the Sahih and other works in Damascus and Egypt. Classes on the Sahih were likewise given by Umm al-Khayr Amat al-Khaliq (811/1408-911/1505), who is regarded as the last great hadith scholar of the Hijaz. Still another authority on Bukhari was A'isha bint Abd al-Hadi. Apart from these women, who seem to have specialized in the great Sahih of Imam al-Bukhari, there were others, whose expertise was centered on other texts. Umm al-Khayr Fatima bint Ali (d.532/1137), and Fatima al-Shahrazuriyya, delivered lectures on the Sahih of Muslim. Fatima al-Jawzdaniyya (d.524/1129) narrated to her students the three Mu'jams of al-Tabarani. Zaynab of Harran (d.68/1289), whose lectures attracted a large crowd of students, taught them the Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the largest known collection of hadiths. Juwayriya bint Umar (d.783/1381), and Zaynab bint Ahmad ibn Umar (d.722/1322), who had travelled widely in pursuit of hadith and delivered lectures in Egypt as well as Medina, narrated to her students the collections of al-Darimi and Abd ibn Humayd; and we are told that students travelled from far and wide to attend her discourses. Zaynab bint Ahmad (d.740/1339), usually known as Bint al-Kamal, acquired 'a camel load' of diplomas; she delivered lectures on the Musnad of Abu Hanifa, the Shamail of al-Tirmidhi, and the Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar of al-Tahawi, the last of which she read with another woman traditionist, Ajiba bin Abu Bakr (d.740/1339). 'On her authority is based,' says Goldziher, 'the authenticity of the Gotha codex ... in the same isnad a large number of learned women are cited who had occupied themselves with this work." With her, and various other women, the great traveller Ibn Battuta studied traditions during his stay at Damascus. The famous historian of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, who tells us that he had studied under more than 1,200 men and 80 women, obtained the ijaza of Zaynab bint Abd al-Rahman for the Muwatta of Imam Malik. Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti studied the Risala of Imam Shafii with Hajar bint Muhammad. Afif al-Din Junayd, a traditionist of the ninth century AH, read the Sunan of al-Darimi with Fatima bin Ahmad ibn Qasim. Other important traditionists included Zaynab bint al-Sha'ri (d.524/615-1129/1218). She studied hadith under several important traditionists, and in turn lectured to many students - some of who gained great repute - including Ibn Khallikan, author of the well-known biographical dictionary Wafayat al-Ayan. Another was Karima the Syrian (d.641/1218), described by the biographers as the greatest authority on hadith in Syria of her day. She delivered lectures on many works of hadith on the authority of numerous teachers. In his work al-Durar al-Karima, Ibn Hajar gives short biographical notices of about 170 prominent women of the eighth century, most of whom are traditionists, and under many of whom the author himself had studied. Some of these women were acknowledged as the best traditionists of the period. For instance, Juwayriya bint Ahmad, to whom we have already referred, studied a range of works on traditions, under scholars both male and female, who taught at the great colleges of the time, and then proceeded to give famous lectures on the Islamic disciplines. 'Some of my own teachers,' says Ibn Hajar, 'and many of my contemporaries, attended her discourses.' A'isha bin Abd al-Hadi (723-816), also mentioned above, who for a considerable time was one of Ibn Hajar's teachers, was considered to be the finest traditionist of her time, and many students undertook long journeys in order to sit at her feet and study the truths of religion. Sitt al-Arab (d.760-1358) had been the teacher of the well-known traditionist al-Iraqi (d.742/1341), and of many others who derived a good proportion of their knowledge from her. Daqiqa bint Murshid (d.746/1345), another celebrated woman traditionist, received instruction from a whole range of other woman. Information on women traditionists of the ninth century is given in a work by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawi (830-897/1427-1489), called al-Daw al-Lami, which is a biographical dictionary of eminent persons of the ninth century. A further source is the Mu'jam al-Shuyukh of Abd al-Aziz ibn Umar ibn Fahd (812-871/1409-1466), compiled in 861 AH and devoted to the biographical notices of more than 1,100 of the author's teachers, including over 130 women scholars under whom he had studied. Some of these women were acclaimed as among the most precise and scholarly traditionists of their time, and trained many of the great scholars of the following generation. Umm Hani Maryam (778-871/1376-1466), for instance, learnt the Qur'an by heart when still a child, acquired all the Islamic sciences then being taught, including theology, law, history, and grammar, and then travelled to pursue hadith with the best traditionists of her time in Cairo and Mecca. She was also celebrated for her mastery of calligraphy, her command of the Arabic language, and her natural aptitude in poetry, as also her strict observance of the duties of religion (she performed the hajj no fewer than thirteen times). Her son, who became a noted scholar of the tenth century, showed the greatest veneration for her, and constantly waited on her towards the end of her life. She pursued an intensive program of learning in the great college of Cairo, giving ijazas to many scholars, Ibn Fahd himself studied several technical works on hadith under her. Her Syrian contemporary, Bai Khatun (d.864/1459), having studied traditions with Abu Bakr al-Mizzi and numerous other traditionalists, and having secured the ijazas of a large number of masters of hadith, both men and women, delivered lectures on the subject in Syria and Cairo. We are told that she took especial delight in teaching. A'isha bin Ibrahim (760/1358-842/1438), known in academic circles as Ibnat al-Sharaihi, also studied traditions in Damascus and Cairo (and elsewhere), and delivered lectures which eminent scholars of the day spared no efforts to attend. Umm al-Khayr Saida of Mecca (d.850/1446) received instruction in hadith from numerous traditionists in different cities, gaining an equally enviable reputation as a scholar. So far as may be gathered from the sources, the involvement of women in hadith scholarships, and in the Islamic disciplines generally, seems to have declined considerably from the tenth century of the hijra. Books such as al-Nur al-Safir of al-Aydarus, the Khulasat al-Akhbar of al-Muhibbi, and the al-Suluh al-Wabila of Muhammad ibn Abd Allah (which are biographical dictionaries of eminent persons of the tenth, eleventh and twelfth centuries of the hijra respectively) contain the names of barely a dozen eminent women traditionists. But it would be wrong to conclude from this that after the tenth century, women lost interest in the subject. Some women traditionists, who gained good reputations in the ninth century, lived well into the tenth, and continued their services to the sunna. Asma bint Kamal al-Din (d.904/1498) wielded great influence with the sultans and their officials, to whom she often made recommendations - which, we are told, they always accepted. She lectured on hadith, and trained women in various Islamic sciences. A'isha bint Muhammad (d.906/1500), who married the famous judge Muslih al-Din, taught traditions to many students, and was appointed professor at the Salihiyya College in Damascus. Fatima bint Yusuf of Aleppo (870/1465-925/1519), was known as one of the excellent scholars of her time. Umm al-Khayr granted an ijaza to a pilgrim at Mecca in the year 938/1531.51 The last woman traditionist of the first rank who is known to us was Fatima al-Fudayliya, also known as al-Shaykha al-Fudayliya. She was born before the end of the twelfth Islamic century, and soon excelled in the art of calligraphy and the various Islamic sciences. She had a special interest in hadith, read a good deal on the subject, received the diplomas of a good many scholars, and acquired a reputation as an important traditionist in her own right. Towards the end of her life, she settled at Mecca, where she founded a rich public library. In the Holy City she was attended by many eminent traditionists, who attended her lectures and received certificates from her. Among them, one could mention in particular Shaykh Umar al-Hanafi and Shaykh Muhammad Sali. She died in 1247/1831. Throughout the history of feminine scholarship in Islam it is clear that the women involved did not confine their study to a personal interest in traditions, or to the private coaching of a few individuals, but took their seats as students as well as teachers in pubic educational institutions, side by side with their brothers in faith. The colophons of many manuscripts show them both as students attending large general classes, and also as teachers, delivering regular courses of lectures. For instance, the certificate on folios 238-40 of the al-Mashikhat ma al-Tarikh of Ibn al-Bukhari, shows that numerous women attended a regular course of eleven lectures which was delivered before a class consisting of more than five hundred students in the Umar Mosque at Damascus in the year 687/1288. Another certificate, on folio 40 of the same manuscript, shows that many female students, whose names are specified, attended another course of six lectures on the book, which was delivered by Ibn al-Sayrafi to a class of more than two hundred students at Aleppo in the year 736/1336. And on folio 250, we discover that a famous woman traditionist, Umm Abd Allah, delivered a course of five lectures on the book to a mixed class of more than fifty students, at Damascus in the year 837/1433. Various notes on the manuscript of the Kitab al-Kifaya of al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, and of a collection of various treatises on hadith, show Ni'ma bin Ali, Umm Ahmad Zaynab bint al-Makki, and other women traditionists delivering lectures on these two books, sometimes independently, and sometimes jointly with male traditionists, in major colleges such as the Aziziyya Madrasa, and the Diyaiyya Madrasa, to regular classes of students. Some of these lectures were attended by Ahmad, son of the famous general Salah al-Din."

Re: can anyone help?
MuslimaKanadiyya
04/20/01 at 16:40:09
slm [quote] I’m not asking *why these Sisters don’t wear hijab* but *what is their reasoning used to support the view that it is not an OBLIGATION?” [/quote] [quote] They never tell us the full story in case we start asking questions and start to think liberally the way Allah wants us to think. These verses were revealed specifically for the wives of the prophet (saw) and were in no way binding upon all the other women… [/quote] What interests me here is not what these women say in and of itself, but how do they use the Qur'an and the sunnah of the Prophet [saw] to justify their position.  Before throwing their argument out completely, we should listen to how they came to that interpretation of the Qur'an and the sunnah and judge whether or not such an interpretation is justified within that context and that context alone without reference to cultural practices that have very little or nothing to do with Islam. Islam should welcome debate on such issues if there is more than one possible interpretation of the Qur'an and the sunnah.  Now, that is not to say that these women are right or that they are wrong at this point, but I am asking whether what they are saying is a possible interpretation. Establishing the context in which ayahs of the Qur'an were revealed has always had an important role in determining the interpretation of those ayahs (just look at any work of tasfir).  So, if there is any possibility that they could be correct, doesn't that justify an open discussion of the issue without anyone condemning anyone else's opinion, for if these women, or any other muslims for that matter, have a valid argument regarding any issue of fiqh, we should acknowledge that even if we disagree with their interpretation. Just to reiterate, I have not taken either side on this issue, I am just interested to see how they came to use that argument.  What I do not like to see, however, is people dismissing an argument without having discussed it, for we all have much to learn.  I believe it is wrong for the so-called [i] feminists [/i] to look down on those who do wear hijab as well as those who do wear it to look down on those who don't.  Personally, I tend to side with tradition, but I am interesting in knowing how this argument is formulated. One of my reasons for writing this is because I have seen some muslims dismiss arguments in the past based not on the argument itself, but on who delivered it.  I watched as the argument (not about hijab, by the way) of a pious muslimah was dismissed outright by a group of young men just because she was a woman while they should have respected her in her role as teacher and as their elder.  Such unwillingness to listen to what someone else has say should be unacceptable behaviour from any muslim, for without listening, how do we learn what we do not know or guide those whom Allah swt has given us the opportunity to teach? May Allah swt forgive me if anything I have said is misguided. wlm

Re: can anyone help?
jannah
04/20/01 at 11:14:27
[quote] how do they use the Qur'an and the sunnah of the Prophet  to justify their position.  Before throwing their argument out completely, we should listen to how they came to that interpretation of the Qur'an and the sunnah and judge whether or not such an interpretation is justified within that context and that context alone without reference to cultural practices that have very little or nothing to do with Islam. [/quote] wlm, they come to their position based upon selective Quran and Sunnah and their own made up interpretation of that "Quran and Sunnah".  Islam is not taking one verse and interpreting it however you want. To truly establish a legal verdict you have to take ALL the quranic verses, ALL the sunnah, ALL the things surrounding those and try to put them together based upon the principles and science of interpretation. True we should hear their arguments, but their quoting a quran verse here, a hadith there might sound like a valid argument to someone but we have to realize this is not the way our deen works. Islam is special and has not been corrupted like other deen's before us just because of this solid sticking to the rules, guidelines and principles of fiqh. As an aside, since every *Islamic scholar in the entire world* says that hijab is fard would you rather listen to some person's argument against it?

Re: can anyone help?
eleanor
04/20/01 at 11:32:38
[quote]These verses were revealed specifically for the wives of the prophet (saw) and were in no way binding upon all the other women but the moulvis have used the hijaab as a tool to keep us trapped in the passed and remain subservient to all men... [/quote] This is wrong anyway because there was a hadith about Eid where Rasulullah wanted everyone to come out and celebrate including the women and one woman asked him if the women didn't have hijab then how could they come and he said they could borrow one from a sister who has two. or words to that effect. I'm sure the whole town wasn't married to the holy Prophet (pbuh) Astafirullah. wasalaam eleanor

Re: can anyone help?
MuslimaKanadiyya
04/20/01 at 13:45:42
assalam 'alaikum, I'm sorry if I came across too strongly.  My point was that we have to accept/refute arguments based on specific criteria, that is the Qur'an and the sunnah.  My own knowledge at this point does not allow me to make any specific determinations based on the arguments that the women at the conference mentioned; however, this does not mean that I support what they are doing or the way that they are doing it.  Their argument, however, should not be dismissed lightly, because it is attracting a lot of support -- it is one that I have heard numerous times in the past from various sources.  For this reason alone, we should listen to their explanation of this theory, and just because we listen doesn't mean that we have to agree with them.  After all, you can't refute something you know nothing about. My complaint and my main impetus for writing what I did was a problem that I have seen myself, and that is that some, alhamdulillah not all, muslims will dismiss someone's words based on irrelevant facts such as the race or the sex of the speaker and not on based on the argument that that person is expressing. This crosses the line from useful debate to unnecessary boorishness.  The hijab thread may not have been the best place to bring it up. Thank you everyone for your comments. wassalam

Re: can anyone help?
BrKhalid
04/20/01 at 17:52:08
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]muslims will dismiss someone's words based on irrelevant facts such as the race or the sex of the speaker and not on based on the argument that that person is expressing[/quote] Seen it happen with age as well
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