leading the prayer

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leading the prayer
sis
03/10/01 at 09:01:50
alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu

a friend of mine emailed me with this following question:

"I am working at an Islamic school right now. It's actually pretty nice.  One of the sisters who volunteers there accepted Islam recently and has a million and one questions.

I need some guidance in an issue that not a lot of people were able to answer in an intellectual and obvious manner.  

 Why can't a woman lead a prayer?  Now, my friend has heard that a woman's voice is 3awra and that men would not be able to concentrate if a woman was infront of them during prayer. Those answers weren't good enough.  I was wondering if you have an answer or a site that I can visit.  This woman was a feminist before she embraced Islam and I can sense that deep down inside she still is, hence the question"

i gave her a pre-answer reply ...i told her to be patient and first explain to this new sis that as muslims, we obey Allah's commands because He created us and knows whats best for us - and that tawheed is the root of all of our actions as muslims....the new sis answered with this comment "I explained Tawheed to her, however she found them indirectly related.  She said that knowledge strengthens tawheed and is not tawheed."

and so answering this comment i replied again and said well if u look to the sahabi at the time when revelations came..they were steadfast in accepting the command....of course we are not to follow blindly in our faith but knowledge should not be a pre-requisite for accepting something the All-Knower has prescribed.

now i still haven't answered the question yet because i haven't been able to come up with a convincing approach ..i did send some q&a about this from islam-qa.com..but they don't really explain much

i have asked a few sis's and emailed a knowledgeable sister and i sitll haven't gotten an answer ..i also plan on emailing a bro who masha'Allah knows his stuff in hopes of getting more ideas..

but in the meantime...how would any of u answer this sort of question???

jazakum Allah khayran katheera

walsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu :-)



Re: leading the prayer
BrKhalid
03/10/01 at 17:59:24
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

Some of the answer below may be useful

[hr]

Is there any prove from the Sunnah or ijtihad of the Sahaba that the praying (salat) of a woman is on some points different from the man, like it is in the Hanafi madhhab?

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

The general principle is that women are equal to men in all religious rulings, because of the hadeeth "Women are the twin halves of men" (Reported by Imaam Ahmad and classified as saheeh in Saheeh al-Jaami’ 1983), except when there is evidence (daleel) of a specific ruling which applies only to women. One of the cases in which the scholars mention specific rules for women is prayer, where there are differences as follows:

Women do not have to give adhaan or iqaamah, because adhaan requires raising the voice, which women are not permitted to do. Ibn Qudaamah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: "We know of no difference between the scholars (on this point)." (Al-Mughni ma’a al-Sharh al-Kabeer, 1/438).

All of the woman’s body is ‘awrah and must be covered during prayer, except for her face, because the Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "No prayer will be accepted from an adult woman unless she wears a khimaar (head-cover). (Reported by the five Muhadditheen) There is some dispute as to whether her heels and feet should be covered. The author of al-Mughni (2/328) said: "As for the rest of the free woman’s body, it must be covered during prayer. If any part becomes uncovered, it renders her prayer invalid, except if only a little bit is uncovered. Maalik, al-Oozaa’i and al-Shaafi’i said the same.

The woman should keep her limbs close to her body during rukoo’ and sujood, and not spread them out, because this is more modest and covering. (Al-Mughni 2/258). Al-Nawawi said: "Al-Shaafi’i said, in al-Mukhtasar: there is no difference between men and women in prayer, except that women should keep the parts of their bodies close to one another, and they should make their stomachs touch their thighs during sujood. This is more covering and preferable, in rukoo’ and the rest of the prayer too." (See al-Majmoo’ 3/429).

It is preferable for women to pray in congregation, led by one of their number, because the Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told Umm Waraqah to lead the women of her household in prayer. There is some difference among scholars on this matter. (See al-Mughni, 2/202 and al-Majmoo’ al-Nawawi, 4/84-85). The woman leading the prayer should read aloud as long as no non-mahram man can hear her.
It is permissible for women to go out and pray in the mosque with men, although their prayer at home is better for them, because the Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Do not prevent the women from going out to the mosques, even though their homes are better for them." (For more details on this matter, see Question#973).
Imaam al-Nawawi, may Allaah have mercy on him, said (al-Majmoo’ 3/455): "Women differ from men in congregational prayer in a number of ways:

(1) Congregational prayer is not required of them in the same way as it is of men.
(2) The imam of a group of women stands in the middle of the (first) row.
(3) (If one woman and one man are praying), she should stand behind him, not next to him.
(4) If women are praying in rows behind men, the back rows are better for them than the front rows.

What we can learn from the above is that women and men are forbidden to mix. Allaah is our Helper and Support.




Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

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Re: leading the prayer
destined
03/10/01 at 23:52:56
[slm]

brother Assing posted this a while ago, I hope it helps, insha'Allah

Alhamdulilllah wa salat wa salam a'la rusulillah ammma bad,  a sister asked me what is the islamic ruling regarding women leading  other women in salat (she asked me this because she teaches at an all girls muslim school and when it comes time for salat they all pray individually rather than in a jamaah and i just wanted to share this perhaps it may be of benefit to some, so by the help of Allah, after looking through quite a few fiqh books, especially those dealing specificly with fiqh for women and consulting with sheikh Abdul Aziz Al Fawzan, one of the best and most detailed answers i found for this topic was from the book Ahkaam ibadat'il mara' fee shareeyyatu' l islamiyyah (The rulings on womens' worship in the islamic shariah)  written by Dr. Sua'd Ibraheeem wherein it says;
      The ruling on women leading salat
 
  The scholars of fiqh are unanimous that a woman cannot lead men in salat, however they differ as to whether or not it is permissable for her to lead other women. Imam Abu Hanifah, imam As-Shaafiee and imam Ahmad said it is permissible and imam said it is immpermissable. Abu Thawr and At Tabari took very strange opinion by say that a woman can lead salat unconditionally - for both men and women. The details from madhaahib for this issue are as follows:

The Hanafi madhab:
    It is permissable for a woman to lead other women in salat, but she should be in the middle of them when leading, and this is from the narration of A'ishah that she used to lead the women in asr salat and she used to stand in the middle of them. (Bidayil' mujtahid vol. 1 pg.145)

The Shaafi'ee madhab:
    The Shaafiyyah are of the opinion that it is mustahab (highly recommended) for a woman to lead other women in salat. As Shaikh Al Ghazali said "every congregational salat that is mustahab for men then it it is also mustahab for women, optional prayers (nafilah) or obligatory" and he used as a proof the hadeeth of umm Waraqah that the rasulallah (saw) used to say "lets go visit the shaheedah(martry)" and he permitted her to call the adhan and to lead the people of her house for the five salawat and she had memorised the quran.(Asad Al Gaabah vol.7 pg.2408)

The maaliki madhab:
      The malikiyyah have two conditions for leading salat; islam and being a male, and since a women does not fulfill thses two conditions then salat behind her (for man or woman) is immpermisable.( As sharh  As sagheer vol.1 pg.433)
 
The Hanbali madhab:
       They are also of the opinion that it is mustahab for a woman to lead other women in salat, using as a proof the hadeeth of umm Waraqah.(Al Mughni vol. 7 pg.35)


               Summary
       The majority of the scholars see it as mustahab for a woman to lead other women  in salat and this is what we (the scholars) see as the stronger opinion from the general evidences reported on this issue. Also Sheikh Al Fawzan said that it is also better for them to pray together (than individually) because this is a way of increasing khushoo and it brings the hearts closer.

                    Where the woman stands when leading other women in jammah          
       
        Whenever  a woman leads other women in salah she stands with them in the middle of the row, and the proofs for this are many, from amongst them the hadeeth that has been narrated in the Mussanaf of ibn Abi Shaybah and Bayhaqi with  authenic chain (isnad saheeh) from umm Al Hasan that she saw umm Salamah wife of the prophet (saw) lead the women in salat and she stood in the middle of them, and it has also been narrated by Al Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of A'ishah that "she used to call the adhan, iqamah and lead the women and she used to be in the middle of them" ( Al Bayhaqi, Ad Darqutuni and Abdul Razzaq, imam Nawawi in Al majmu'a said that its' isnad is saheeh)
                                 
                 The ruling on women calling the  adhan and iqamah  

      The adhan and the iqamah is not obligatory upon women and this is the opinion of Anas ibn Malik, Saeed ibn Musayyab, Abu Thawr and imam Maalik, Ibn Qudaamah said in the Mughni "and i know of no differences about this".  However is it the sunnah for them to make the adhan and iqamah? It has been narrated from imam Ahmad that "if they do it no broblem and if they don't them it is permissable", and imam As Shaafi said "if they make adhan and iqamah no problem".  The hadeeth of Aishah mentioned before that "she used to make the adhan and the iqamah" (Al Bahaqi) also supports this opinion. One thing i would like to draw your attention to here is that one may find in some books of hadeeth or fiqh like Fiqh As Sunnah by Saeed Sabiq rahimuallah, a narration from ibn Umar that "there is no adhan or iqamah for women" but as Shaikh Al Albani had pointed out that in Tamam Am Minnah (the authentification of the hadeeth in Fiqh As Sunnah) pg.153, that this is not  Abdullah ibn umar Al Khattab but rather Abdullah ibn umar ibn Naafi' al umari al mukkabir and he is weak therefor the hadeeth is weak, and it also goes against an authenthic narration from Al musannaf (vol.1 pg.223) that ibn Umar  himself  when he was asked "should women make the adhan"? so he got angry and said "am i going to prevent them rom the rememberance of Allah?"  and imam Ahmad used this as a proof for the permissablity of women making the adhan.
              Finally as Shaikh Al Albani has "in general all these narrations are okay to work by, espcially there are strenghted by the generality of the hadeeth "innmaa an nisa' shaqaa'iq ar rijal - indeed women are the sisters of men" the meaning of which applies to the one of general rules of fiqh and that is "whatever rulings applies to men applies to women except if there is a dalel to prove otherwise". wallahu' a'lam    
Re: leading the prayer
Kathy
03/11/01 at 08:30:32
slm

I remember asking the same question when I was a newbie- coming from a Catholic background of priests ruling the roost-

The answer that a Muslim gave me that I accepted immediately was-

Do you really want a man watching you as you bend over and bow?
Re: leading the prayer
sis
03/11/01 at 09:33:00
[slm]

jazakum Allahu khayran for the valuable info :-)

...but the thing is..those articles don't really mention Why a woman can't lead prayer....gotta keep in mind that the sis who is asking this was a strong feminist before accepting Islam...

sister kathy...actually u reminded me of something...i remember hearing once that a woman's prayer is invalid if a man walks behind her ...if i could only find the source for this it might make her understand ..and maybe to explain how prayer is a time of concentration...?

Re: leading the prayer
assing
03/11/01 at 12:38:39
As salaamu alaykum sis, you are quite correct that these pervious post neither cures hunger nor does it quench thirst i.e. it does not gave a direct answer to the question the sister is asking, and I don't think no one will regardless of how many ayat, ahadeeth and statements of the scholars will if the sister herself is not sincere in trying to know the truth. For this is not just an issue of why women cannot lead men in salah, for this just a masking of the true question, one that is much deeper than that, and that is how do we unconditionally accept and submit the  laws of Allah even if we dislike it or fail  to comprehend it. As Allah swears by himself, negating emaan from those who not anly fail to accept the judgement of the messenger {saw} but also doing so grudgingly "No by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you a judge between their disputes, then they do not find any difficulty within themselves with what you have decreed and they submit completely".
  Aslo what help you sister to answer such a question is to know that such a question or thinking is nothing new to this deen, as a matter of fact a woman asked the mother of the believers a similar question to this more than 1300 yrs and look at how a firm mu'minah responds to such shubuhaats as they come at her as in the hadeeth of Muaadhah: þãÚÇÐÉ þ þÞÇáÊ þ
þÓÃáÊ þ þÚÇÆÔÉ þ þÝÞáÊ ãÇ ÈÇá ÇáÍÇÆÖ ÊÞÖí ÇáÕæã æáÇ ÊÞÖí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÝÞÇáÊ þ þÃÍÑæÑíÉ þ þÃäÊ ÞáÊ áÓÊ þ þÈÍÑæÑíÉ æáßäí ÃÓÃá ÞÇáÊ ßÇä íÕíÈäÇ Ðáß ÝäÄãÑ ÈÞÖÇÁ ÇáÕæã æáÇ äÄãÑ ÈÞÖÇÁ ÇáÕáÇÉ þ
 Muaadhah said: I asked Ieshah why is it a menstruating woman has to make up for her fast but she does not have to make up for her salat ? She said "Are you a Hururiyah i.e. a khaawarij", I said: I am not a Hururiyah but I am just asking. She said "this used to happen to us and we were commanded to make up the fast and we were not the salat" {Saheeh Muslim}.
  So the question comes up why did Ieshah {radiallahu anha} ask her if she was a khaawrij only based on that one question? She asked her this because it was known that the Khaawrij as a group believed every aspect of this deen must make "sense" accord to the human intellect and by default if an aspect of this deen did not make any "sense" to them they rejected it. Thus they concluded in their understanding of the deen that since salat is more important than fasting, this {salat} deserves more to be made up then fasting,  hence they came to this conclusion and obligated their woman to make up for both the missed fast and salat while menstruating  {btw, it has been recorded in history the only people to let a woman lead in salat were the khawaarij} .
  So in summary my point is this deen is about hearing and obeying wether we understand or not the hikmah behind Allahs' rulings, and this is the true meaning of "islaam" i.e. "istislaam - complete submission to the commands of Allah"
 You can show her the following and inshallah Allah will guide her to the haqq:

 This topic seems to be widely discussed these days under different forums.  The argument seems to revolve on the following two hadith collected in Abu Dawud under the heading, "The Imamate of Women":

"Umm Waraqah daugther of Nawfal reported: When the Prophet proceeded for the Battle of Badr, I said to him: Apostle of Allah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for your patients. It is possible that Allah might bestow martyrdom upon me. He said: Stay at your home. Allah, the Almigthy, will bestow martyrdom upon you. The narrator said: Hence she was called the shaheeda (martyr). She read the Qur'an. She sought permission from the Prophet to have a mu'adhdhin in her house. He, therefore, permitted her (to do so). She announced that her slave and slave-girl would be free after her death…

This tradition has also been narrated through a diffferent chain of transmitters through Umm Waraqah daugther of 'Abd Allah ibn al-Harith. The
first version is complete. This version goes:  "The Apostle of Allah used to visit her at her house. He appointed a mu'adhdhin to call adhan for her, and he commanded her to lead the inmates of her house in prayer. 'Abd al-Rahman said: I saw her mu'adhdhin who was an old man."
(p. 155-156 of Sunan Abu Dawud, Eng tr. by Dr. Ahmad Hasan)

Another narration of this hadith states, "And he ordered her to lead the inmates of her house in obligatory (fard) prayers." (Sahih Ibn al-Khuzaima
3/89, # 1676)

Based on this tradition people conclude that it is allowed for a woman to lead man in prayer and act as their 'imam. They further state that the office of an 'imam is not limited to men, rather women have a share in it as well. Some go even further and say that woman who were liberated by Islam have been deprived of it by Islamic scholars.

Had these people at least read the brief explanation given by the translator of Sunan Abu Dawud!

Dr. Ahmad Hasan, the translator and commentator of Sunan Abu Dawud writes in explanation of these two reports:

"In this tradition (referring to the first tradition quoted above) there is no indication that Umm Waraqah acted as 'imam. But the other version of this tradition which follows indicates that the Prophet commanded her to lead the inmates of her house in prayer. On the basis of this tradition a group of scholars maintain that a woman can act as 'imam for the people who reside with her in her house, although they include males. The majority of scholars hold that a woman can lead the woman in prayer and not men. They argue from a number of traditions which indicate that 'Aishah and Umm Salamah led women in prayer, and they stood in the middle of the row, and not infront of them. They led both obligatory and supererogatory prayers. The case of Umm Waraqah was of a special type which cannot be generalised ('Awn al-Ma'bud. p. 230-131)."

Why do the majority of Islamic scholars not allow women to lead men in prayer? Are they all biased and bigoted as claimed by some or do they
actually have strong evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah to back their claim? For those who seek the Truth, Insha-Allah we will present some of the evidence held by the scholars to declare woman's imamate to be invalid. Please read and judge for yourself.

(1) Malik ibn al-Huwairith said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say, "If anyone visits people, he should not lead them in prayer, but some man (rajul) from them should lead the prayer." (Musnad of Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nisai; it is authentic according to Tirmidhi and Albani)

This hadith specifically mentions a man (rajul) should lead the prayer which indicates that others like women do not have a share in it.

(2) Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported Allah's Messenger as saying: "The one who is most versed in Allah's Book should act as Imam for people, but if they are equally versed in reciting it, then the one who has the most knowledge regarding Sunnah…No man (rajul) must lead another in prayer where (the latter) has authority, or sit in his place of honor in his house, without his permission." (Sahih Muslim under "Who Deserves Most To Act As Imam" vol.1, p. 326-327)

When explaining the order of who can act as an 'imam, the Prophet specified men and did not mention women at all. This is indicated by the last part of the hadith in which he said, "No man…" Therefore, it is not allowed for them to lead men in prayer.

(3) Abu Bakra reports the Prophet said, "A people shall never prosper who will delegate their affairs to a woman" (Bukhari)

The prayer is one of the most significant affairs of the religion, rather it is the most important one after the two testimonies of faith. This is why he
himself delegated it to others when there was a need. He never delegated it to a woman. Therefore, it is not permissible for us either to delegate this affair to women.

(4) The Mother of the Believers, 'Aisha would have her slave named Dhukwan lead her in prayer who would recite from a copy of the Qur'an.(Bukhari)

Without doubt, 'Aisha was more knowledgeable and a better reciter than Dhukwan since he had to recite by looking at a copy of the Qur'an. This is clear evidence that a woman can not lead a man in prayer, or else 'Aisha would have lead him in prayer for she was more knowledgeable and a better reciter of Qur'an.

In conclusion, it is not known that any of the Mothers of the Believers ever led any men in prayer even if they were their mahrams, yet they led other women in prayer. On the contrary( they would be led by men lesser in knowledge and recitation. Also, when they led women in prayer, they would stand in the same row. How can one imagine a woman leading non-mahrem men and standing with them shoulder to shoulder in the same row?

(5) In order to minimize the room for fitna, the perfect Sharia has legislated clapping for women if something happens in the prayer to get attention, unlike men who say Subhan-Allah as the Messenger of Allah said: Glorification of Allah (saying Subhan-Allah) is for men and clapping of hands
is meant for women (if something happens in prayer)." (Sahih Muslim under "If Something Happens In Prayer, Men Should Glorify Allah and Women Should Clap Hands," vol. 1, p. 234-235)

Then how can it be imagined that Islam allows women to recite the Qur'an and say the takbeer (Allahu Akbar) in prayer while leading men behind them, but are not allowed to say Subhan-Allah to get attention?

Based on these and other proofs the majority of our scholars hold that women can not lead men in prayer.

As for the story of Umm Waraqa, they we must be aware of three matters:

(i) Several scholars of hadith have criticised its isnaad. The famous scholar of hadith al-Mundhiri has criticised its chain of narrators in Mukhtasar
Sunan Abi Dawud, 1/307. Also, Ibn al-Hajr has also criticised its narrator in al-Talkhees al-Habeer 2/27. Nevertheless, al-Albani has declared it to be fair (hasan) in 'Irwa' al-Ghalil 2/255.

(ii) For the sake of argument if we were to assume this hadith to be authentic, then perhaps Umm Waraqa led only the female inmates of her house in prayer since none of the hadith state that she led the old man in prayer also. With the exception of three scholars in the history of Islam, the rest are in agreement that a woman can not lead men in obligatory prayer. Simply because an old man gave adhan for Umm Waraqa does not necessarily imply that he prayed behind her as well.

(iii) Thirdly, if we assume this hadith to be authentic and believe that Umm Waraqa led the old man in prayer, then the scholars have considered it an exception made for her by the Prophet as stated by Dr. Ahmad Hasan. The Prophet is not reported to have made a similar exception for any other woman.

Yet, someone might ask: why was an exception made in her case? It could be possibly due to two reasons:

(a) Her mu'adhdhin was an old man. Umm Waraqa reportedly did not lead any other man in prayer, but only the members of her household for whom the Prophet allowed her.

(b) This old man and her slave-girl strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died as mentioned in the same report of Sunan Abu Dawud. Maybe he made an exception for her to lead them in prayer because he knew of their corruption or for some other reason he did not see it fit that this old man lead the prayer. Maybe the Prophet knew that this would be killer will only pray in this manner because he will be compelled to pray, or some other reason. And Allah knows best.

In any case, the evidence for allowing a woman to lead men in prayer is not explicitly clear even if assumed to be authentic.

Interestingly enough, these same people who are so keen to make women 'imams do not pay attention to the prophetic advise to Umm Waraqa, "Stay at your home," even though Umm Waraqa wanted to participate with the Prophet in a noble mission and be a maryr in Jihad and the Prophet had few men on his side in the Battle of Badr. What could have been a better excuse to have Umm Waraqa leave her home?
Yet, he did not allow her to leave her home.  Furthermore, the Prophet did not instruct her to goto the local masjid, but rather instructed her to do what was best: stay and pray in her home.
{taken from www.islaam.com}


           
   
NS
Re: leading the prayer
humble_muslim
03/12/01 at 06:27:59
AA

Brother Assing,

As I pointed out in an earlier post, we should use hikmat and not harshness when dealing with recently converted muslims.  Responding to every question with the answer "you're not supposed to ask, just obey" may have a bad effect on the iman of new converts.

Allahu Alim.
NS
Re: leading the prayer
humble_muslim
03/12/01 at 06:32:50
AA

Brother Assing, I read your post more closely.  You say :

"...if the sister herself is not sincere in trying to know the truth"

Well, if she converted to Islam, I think that in itself is a VERY big proof that she IS sincere in trying to know the truth.  I'm not trying to put you down, I just think that new muslims need to be treated gently.  Look at some of the questions that Daud has asked, the really beautiful way some brothers and sisters have responded to him, and his reaction ... "I LOVE YOU GUYS!".
NS
Re: leading the prayer
assing
03/12/01 at 09:26:22
As salaamu alaykum, this is what i was afraid of i.e. that i would seem as coming off harsh in the manner I stated my piont, and I apologize to all if this is the manner in which my case was understood.
 This is why  I advised the sister to send the new muslimah the second half of the post, for the first half was just some tips on how to understand where a person is comming from when they pose such a question. Also, in no way was I trying to be harsh on the sister, for there is no greater blessing Allah can bestow on a person than guiding them to islaam, as with the case of the new muslim sister.
 However, what I trying to emphasize is yes Allah guides many people to this deen by His will, but does every one have the same level of iman and ilm? Thus, as you properly stated we should use "hikmah" in dealing with others, and as the scholars say "hikmah is to put everything in its rightfull place". Hence, when Ieshah asked Muaadhah if she was a Khawaarij then was indeed a very rebuking question, especially if you are aware who the Khaawrij were. And Ieshah responded in this manner not because she was harsh but rather to emphasize the true ramifications of such a question, and this is all I am saying. Thus I said  ""...if the sister herself is not sincere in trying to know the truth" meaning if after all the proofs have been shown to her and she still is not convinced, what is a person to do except leave that between them and Allah. For as shaikh Ibn Uthaymeen {rahimullah} had once said in lecture "a person may not understand something for four main reasons:
1.} Jahl - complete ignorance of that particular issue
2.} Taqseeer fee talab'ul ilm - not puting enough effort into researching a topic
3.} Lacking the ability to fully comprehend certain ideas and concepts, or just;
4.} Suu al qasd - having a bad intention or ulterior motive.
Anyways, Humble- muslim I did not intend to advise the sis' to be harsh to the new muslimah, and I hope Allah blesses her to with the ability to understand this deen in the correct manner, as the messenger {saw} said "whoever Allah wants good fro he gives him an understanding of the deen".
NS
Re: leading the prayer
Saleema
03/12/01 at 21:46:23
Assalam ualykum,

The answer is not that hard. It's quite simple, really. Men are aroused very easily just by looking at a woman, they are very visual. Sciene fact everyone learns in the 9th grade science class. While the Prophet and the sahba didn't talk in terms of nureology, they knew from experience that indeed it is true. It's a simple fact of life. Woman are not so easily aroused just by looking. Fact number 2. Woman have curves, hips and breasts. Men do not have curves, their private parts aren't so noticeable, whereas the women's are.

So, for this reason, that men *and* women are spared from unnecessary hardship and both are able to concentrate on their prayers. If women were to lead the prayers, men would most probably be paying more attention to her than on their prayers. Now, i don't want to go into further details but arousal breaks mens' wudu as well as women's if fluids are discharged.

Now, one may argue that the same could be said of the men. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but almost 99.9% of the time, women don't react in such a way, but men on seeing a women in front of them, not all but many, would be aroused. This wise rule is there for the protection of the women and for the protection of men as well from fitna.

And then also, women menstruate, men don't. If women were to lead the prayer and when the time of the month came, everyone would know the woman's business. Being a feminist, like you said your friend is (or was), she may possibly think that in Islam menstruation is looked at as something to be ashamed of, (like in Judaism and Hinduism), but that not the case at all. You may want to point this out, that Islam always takes the middle way, it doen't go the extremes in any matter. In judiasm, men don't touch their women when they menstruate, they are't allowed to cook meals during that time and similar things. Christianity goes to the other extreme and says, it's all right to have sex with your wife when she is menstruating. But Islam, discourages both of these acts. And in the case of leading the prayers: Islam stresses modesty, (lowering the gaze, covering the body, no foul talk, no dirty talk, etc), and it's not very modest to let the whole world know when your time of the month is.

Women are also very concious about their apperance whereas men are less so. I don't know any women whould would be comfortable, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, beding over a dozen times in a day in front of so many men.

PS. A women's voice is not a part of her awarah. Evidence: Aisha (R) used to talk to the Sahaba when they asked for her advise on religious matters.

(i feel really weird, i hope this is appropriate. I mean basically, *this* is what is at the bottom of this issue.)

Re: leading the prayer
se7en
03/12/01 at 23:05:21

saleema good post!  and remember there is no modesty in seeking knowledge of deen...
Re: leading the prayer
AbdulBasir
03/13/01 at 06:24:40
[quote]If women were to lead the prayer and when the time of the month came, everyone would know the woman's business...it's not very modest to let the whole world know when your time of the month is. [/quote]
very concise post sister, well done...as an aside, you could add that the above is one of the other reasons women are not obligated to pray jamaah in the masjid...[slm]
Re: leading the prayer
sis
03/14/01 at 08:01:46
alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu:-)

jazakum Allah khayran katheera for all ur help...masha'Allah i'm really glad i posted this q here:-)

here's answer i received from a knowledgeable bro in the community.....

-------------------------------------------------

First, I would like to assert that the stronger opinion is that : women's voice is
NOT Awrah. It only becomes Awrah when they speak with a melodic soft tone.

Second: Regarding the question of leadiing the Salat. Well, the vast majority of
scholars are of the opinion that women can lead women in Salah (except Imam
Malik).
The reason that women can't lead men is more than obvious :
Can you imagine a woman bowing and prostrating in front of "lines" of Men.
Subhana Allah !! You think the men behind here are angels with no desires that
can be stimulated. It has nothing to do with Awrah of her voice.

This case is different when for example there's a talk or announcement where a
woman would not be subject to such a situation.

Regarding the feminist views that she used to believe in, it will take some time
before the sister rids herself of the traces of 'extreme' feminism - if the term
allows- that women and men are "alike" in everything. Notice I haven't used the
word "equal" or "equitable". In the experience of Sr. Amina Assilmi is a good
example. Review the lecture she held in the Agora about a year and a half ago
about feminism and Islam. I thought it was well said.

I hope this is sufficient for an answer.



Reas-on
AbuKhaled
03/14/01 at 10:44:21
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Rahman.

Dear Brothers & Sisters,

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.

I ask Allah (swt) to grant me me the Hidayaah [Guidance] of writing truthfully, correctly, and with due diligence towards the matter of explaining the reality of what I seek to address.

With regards to the question, I would like to revolve my remarks around the below quotes:

1. < The answer is not that hard. It's quite simple, really. Men are aroused very easily just by looking at a woman, they are very visual. Sciene fact everyone learns in the 9th grade science class. While the Prophet and the sahba didn't talk in terms of nureology, they knew from experience that indeed it is true.>

2. < So, for this reason, that men *and* women are spared from unnecessary hardship and both are able to concentrate on their prayers. If women were to lead the prayers, men would most probably be paying more attention to her than on their prayers.>

3. < The reason that women can't lead men is more than obvious :
Can you imagine a woman bowing and prostrating in front of "lines" of Men.
Subhana Allah !! You think the men behind here are angels with no desires that
can be stimulated. It has nothing to do with Awrah of her voice.>

I think – to give the benefit of the doubt - that perhaps those who used the word “reason” were not thinking along the same lines I am. But the problem is what *others* understand by our words. For whilst in english the word “reason” could be synonymous with *wisdom*, in the nomenclature of usul it definitely cannot. And we need to develop our method of thinking along the lines of shar’a terminology, rather than linguistic usage. Because the implications of not doing so are vast. When one fails to distinguish – especially when interacting in languages outside of arabic, and especially when talking about a technical subject (fiqh) using non-technical language – then pitfalls open up, for we confuse what constitues a Divine illah [reason] for what is merely a human hikmah [wisdom], and also that which is merely a material fa’ida [benefit].

The matter is exacerbated if one was not being so particular and used the term “reason” in a sense more suited to “wisdom” as opposed to illah in the realm of usul.

When someone asks about the reason behind a rule [hukm] then they are talking here about the illah [reason] behind a ruling of the Deen. In other words they are enquiring as to the *Divine* illah, behind the hukm of Allah (swt). Thus we appreciate the matter is serious, for if we attribute an illah to a hukm, then it is proper to ask whether such illah is stated by way of ra’y [personal opipnion] based on the aql [mind], from examining the reality of the makeup of wo/man, or is it in fact based upon the naql; [text]. As Muslims we need to be sure that what we are claiming to be a reason, is in fact the *Divine* reason, if indeed we are seeking to explain away the Islamic ruling by virtue of it.

Shaykh Abdullah Adhami mentions in a four part article on Shar'iah he authored:

"When Ata replied to a question, the questioner asked: "is this answer opinion [ra'y] or knowledge ['ilm]?" And Ata, the Imam of the Tabi'een in Mecca, said: "We heard from so and so [that] he heard the Prophet (saw) say...""

So, with this in mind, it could be feasibly wondered – with reference to quote no. 1 above – that what is the *proof* - rather than assumption, supposition, or speculation - that what has been learned in Science today is the same reason which our Beloved Nabi (saw), and his (saw) Sahaba (raa) knew, and indeed, more, the implication that such reasoning formed the basis for the hirma [prohibition]? If one sought to be antagonistic, once could ask if this is a truth which applies to *all* men? If not, then a fallacy of logical reasoning has been encountered, wherein you enter the realm of *special pleading*, which is where you state a premise in absolute terms of generality, only to then plead for an exception, because not to do so would require accepting that which is untrue. This is the problem with stating as fact, that which cannot hold true for *all*. Had it been stated as a possible hikmah [wisdom], then it would be an entirely different matter, for in Islam, in the understanding of usul, illah is that which must *always and without fail* exist for the hukm to be effected. That is, unless the illah comes into play, the hukm cannot. So it’s presence is necessary for the hukm to arise. Now, is it always true that a man is aroused by a woman? No. This cannot be substantiated for the case of *always*. Whereas, to cite a valid example, trade *always* distracts one from jumu’ah. For if you are involved in the former, then necessarily, you cannot be engaged in the latter. Thus we note that the *illah* behind the prohibition of trade at the time of jumu’ah, was *because* of this establishable, identifiable, and provable truth that is distracts.

So, with arousal, it is a sometime phenomenon, which may be at best often, or at least, rare. But not always. And there are simply too many other factors (e.g. age, sanity, conditioning, etc.) that are variables which impact upon such a proposition to render it promotion to the status of a general truth. But even that is not the main point here, it is secondary. The more core question is whether – even if it were true – it is the *reason* that Allah (swt) or His (awj) Prophet (saw), forbade this matter.

In fact, *and at best*, until one cites something that *Islam* considers to be a valid proof for this claim, the “reason” stated in the above three quotes, for the forbiddance of women leading men in prayer, is a hikmah not an illah, and even then we are inclined to say wallahu a’lam, for it is not known for sure that this is indeed a Divine hikmah.

Since this type of question is a matter that routinely arises, where a question concerning the fiqh is asked, and answers ventured without due ascription to an authoritative source which is accepted as probative in Shariah  - thereby making it difficult to discern whether what has been stated as *fact* is in fact based on authority, or ra’y - I wanted to look at the implications of making such conclusions concerning reasons behind rules in Islam.

From the article previously referred to above, by our Beloved Shaykh Adhami, hafiDhahullah, we learn:

"…on the authority of az-Zuhri (124AH), the guidance of our beloved Messenger (pbuh) helps to remind us to "speak about that which you have knowledge of. [And to] relegate that which you are ignorant about to the one who knows of it.""

My quoting this should not be taken as a dent in anyone’s sincerity, efforts or un/learnedness, for I am the first to admit that I am learning the hard way from my mistakes, about the necessity to maintain wara ‘ [scrupulousness] when discussing matters related to the Sacred Law. For it involves probing into the intentions behind tashri’ [legislation], which is in effect, asking about what the intention of Allah (swt) was. Subhan’Allah, this induces within me, tremendous fear. I view this area of fiqh like a tightrope, and slipping is so much more likely when our words are well oiled, of which I am more guilty than many, may Allah ta’ala forgive me my excesses, purify my niyyah [intention] and keep me from misrepresenting His (swt) Deen by speaking about matters concerning His (awj) Shar’iah without sufficient knowledge, wal iyadhubillah.

So now, I return to the above first three quotes at the beginning of this posts, and remind that:

"When Ata replied to a question, the questioner asked: "is this answer opinion [ra'y] or knowledge ['ilm]?" And Ata, the Imam of the Tabi'een in Mecca, said: "We heard from so and so [that] he heard the Prophet (saw) say...""

How much of what has been stated as the *reason* behind this hukm, is based on naql? If it is not, and rather, stems from the aql, then how do we ascertain the truth of it in terms of it being *an Islamic truth*?

Let us pause for a moment, and acknowledge Brother Assing’s posts, which were replete with references to ahadith, fiqh, and authority. Did it state *anywhere* that the reason for the hukm was what has been stated in these three quotes? No. So on what authority has this been concluded? How do you *know* that this is why Allah (swt) forbid women to lead men in prayer? Brother Assing confined himself to quoting from authority, yet none of that revealed the reason behind the rule. Did it occur to anyone who offered a reason without also referring to authority, that maybe this is an example of a hukm for which Allah ta’ala did not state an illah?

There are three relevant aspects which need to be distinguished here, in relation to the hukm. The first is illah [reason], the second is hikmah [wisdom], and the third is fa’ida [benefit].

When we ask about the illah, it needs to be derived *from the text* to be valid. For you are trying to know the intention behind a hukm of Al-Shaari’ [The Legislator], and how can you know if He (swt), or the one whom he sent as a Messenger (saw), or those who reported the revelation (raa), did not state this to be so?

No, what you have stated to be a reason, unless *explicitly* declared as such in the naql, is at best, speculation, based on conjectural supposition, and could at best constitute a hikmah, but we would need to refrain from stating so with any degree of conclusiveness or definitiveness, in the absence of hujja [proof] from the Shar’iah. Wallahu a’lam. Science cannot claim to know the reason of the Lawgiver (awj).

Like hijab, to reiterate from an explanation I’ve given previously, wallahu ta’ala a’lam. One fa’ida *may* be that people don’t ogle our beloved Sisters. Perhaps this was a hikmah behind the tashri [legislation]. But, unless the naql states it to be so, no one can assert with any authority that it definitely is so. At best, one states it – due to caution in not wanting to attribute to the wahy [revelation] that which it itself doesn’t expressly state – it as a hikmah in the human realm, not a Divinely intended one, wallahu a’lam.

Know also that not every hukm has an illah, and there is a hikmah in Allah ta’ala not revealing one (i.e.e an illah) always and in the case of every hukm.

If, for example, one can state that that which has been forwarded as a reason, has been so stated in, say the ahadith (for example), then the case gains ground. But in the absence of any reference to a source which is Divine in origin, it is difficult to accept the proposition that this is in fact the reason behind the hukm. Wallahu ta'’la a'’am.

That should not discourage from the investigation into the intentions, reasons, wisdoms, benefits, objectives, behind the Shar’iah ahkam [rules], but we need to be ever so careful how we state things, lest they not be substantiated, or indeed, substantiable. And before doing so we should equipp ourselves with the requisite understanding of the difference between terms like illah, hikmah and fa’ida, to name but a few. Having swam in the deep end without armbands for so long, I learned my lesson the heard way about how complex fiqh is. How could it not be when it is the product of the Creator of all that is, has been, and will be, as opposed to the product of those whom He (awj) created? Indeed, this Shar’iah is underpinned by the most profound “philosophical” [I dislike that word in this context] basis conceivable, which is precisely why it could never have been the output of any wo/man, or group of.

I write this not by way of admonition, nor to undermine anyone’s sincerity -  ma’adallah! – but because we need to step forward with the most impeccable fahm [understanding], and hone our mafahim [concepts] about such issues, so they are at that peak that they were in the time of the Best of Generations, bi’ithnillah ta’ala.

So, for this Sister, who in her former guise, was a feminist – may Allah (swt) make easy her transition to accepting of this Deen that which she finds difficult right now -  what needs to be impressed upon her is that her whole paradigm needs to be fundamentally altered. Accepting Islam does not automatically entail she has let go of that. Thus, it is the advice of this Brother, that the way to approach her questions, is not by an appeal to rationality, to explain such ahkam – by example of the reasons stated above - but by a remodeling of her paradigm, so that the frame of reference becomes Al-Islam. I disagree that this is a question about her sincerity, astaghfirullah. Just because someone demands more than what has been given, in order to satisfy them, does not immediately equate to insincerity. That needs to be *established* not assumed. Because sometimes people have a particular paradigm from which they view issues, and this determines the nature of the proof they seek, the type of evidence they will accept, and the kind of reasoning that will be probative for them. It may well be that their paradigm is wrong, not that they are insincere. In this case, it is my conclusion that the issue is her paradigm, not her sincerity.

Yes, it will take time to change this, for paradigms are notoriously hard to breakdown and even penetrate, by virtue of the long-standing association the person has had with it, and the self-fulfilling validity it’s application has garnered over time. Look to the example of the paradigm shift the occurred when the world of science went from believing the world was flat, to it being round. Do you think this happened overnight, without heated intellectual battles? A whole philosophy was being challenged! That had cemented itself for so long.

Her paradigm needs to be reborn anew, for she is now Muslim. And this demands a fundamental shift in her existing way of thinking, which is what I believe has not happened yet, and the reason for her dissatisfaction with the answers received thus far in relation to this fiqh question. But as you all have shown more than many times, you are more than sufficient to meet such a challenge, may Allah (swt) honour each and everyone one of you. I am once again humbled to be in the company of such a lovely set of Brothers and Sisters.

Ma’assalam,

Abu Khaled

Re: leading the prayer
BrKhalid
03/14/01 at 12:08:54
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

Enlightening stuff as always Br Abu Khaled. Let the Alliance not prevent you from posting and sharing your knowledge with us.

One point I wanted to make though was in respect of the quote below:

[quote]Thus, it is the advice of this Brother, that the way to approach her questions, is not by an appeal to rationality, to explain such ahkam – by example of the reasons stated above - but by a remodeling of her paradigm, so that the frame of reference becomes Al-Islam[/quote]


Sometimes its difficult to shift a person's way of thinking without first appealing to their rationality.

I agree the end goal should be to change the way a person views things but sometimes you have to be pragmatic and *talk in their language* as it were to get the message across.

If you highlight that these are possible benefits and the potential wisdom behind a ruling and then clearly state that at the end of the day Allah knows best, is that not better than simply asking them to accept?
Indeed!
AbuKhaled
03/14/01 at 12:48:01
Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah AkhiKhalid. ;-)

Excellent points Sidi!

< Sometimes its difficult to shift a person's way of thinking without first appealing to their rationality.>

If we transposed your words “rationality” with *mode of thinking* I would concur. Only because not everyone proceeds based upon rationality.

< sometimes you have to be pragmatic and *talk in their language* as it were to get the message across.>

Absolutely, which is why if we do this *in conjunction with* what your final paragraph suggested, I see no cause for concern.

< If you highlight that these are possible benefits and the potential wisdom behind a ruling and then clearly state that at the end of the day Allah knows best, is that not better than simply asking them to accept?>

I don’t know about “better” but it is definitely acceptable, wallahu a’lam.

The point is to incorporate the long-term vision for the paradigm change, into the short-term explanations. Not to engage in the former in isolation.

I know you did not imply anything contrary, I’m just mentioning it.

Jazakallahukhairun for your wisdom!

Abu Khaled
Re: leading the prayer
Saleema
03/14/01 at 13:14:53
Assalam ualykum,

What I heard was that this is to prevent fitnah. So by the word fitnah in this case this is what I got out of it.

Don't listen to me listen to Abu Kahled!  :) I have no idea what you wrote, I just skimmed though it. But I'm sure you were correcting my mistakes.

I usually love to read your posts but right now I am in a hurry... I want to finish reading all the posts that I find to be interesting. and I don't read every single post throughly like I used to you. Not that your post isn't interesting, i bet it is, they always are. So if I made a blatant mistake let me know and I will take the time out to read it inshallah.

I have found out that the more you try to learn it's never enough. I don't know if Islamic studies is the field for me. Of course one can never be an expert thorougly even in any field, but I feel as if this is the case even more so with Islam.

Not that I feel this way because of this particular subject that was brought up. What do you think, isn't that the case? Plus these days you never know where to get an Islamic education from. If someone says this is good then another person will come along and say no this is bad. So who do I beleive? You know?

I thought I was going to Egypt but now I'm not so sure cuz Al-Azhar isn't what I thought it was after reading that the univesity is forced to tow the mubarak party line. I don't want to get an education in this type of environment. How depressing is that?

Where do I go? I'm not sure if I found a university suitable for me I want to study Islam in depth like I wanted to.

anywat, gotta go slice and dice some mosquitoes. (is that how you spell it!?! heehe... )

wassalam
Re: leading the prayer
bhaloo
03/14/01 at 13:40:23
slm

[quote] Don't listen to me listen to Abu Kahled!  :) I have no idea what you wrote, I just skimmed though it. But I'm sure you were correcting my mistakes. [/quote]

LOL, hahahahah, that was funny.


Translation of Abu Khaled's writing:

Becareful about speaking without knowledge and giving an explanation as to why Allah (SWT) has said something is so.  Sometimes we don't know the wisodm behind a legislation.  Choose your words carefully.  And may Allah (SWT) make the sister's transition easy.
NS
Re: leading the prayer
se7en
03/14/01 at 14:07:50
Translation of bhaloo's translation of Abu Khaled's post:

Be careful when we say that this or that is the *reason* behind a command of Allah.. because there is a difference between the wisdom behind a command, and the *illah* (reason) of a command which comes from texts and evidence.  

Like for hijab, the illah is not that guys are creeps, but some of the wisdom behind it is that some guys are.

wAllahu 'alam.

Re: leading the prayer
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 16:25:27
[slm]
[quote] Like for hijab, the illah is not that guys are creeps, but some of the wisdom behind it is that some guys are.[/quote]Hey!  Is that your ra'y or 'ilm? :)

I think se7en failed to follow the following injunction in her last statement:[quote]Choose your words carefully![/quote]as her choice of the word "creeps" apparently shows...

Thereby, I reject her analogy as a valid one :P

Wassalamu alaikum.
Re: leading the prayer
sis
03/14/01 at 17:37:10
[slm]

masha'Allah...u know i was wondering where bro Abukhaled was? ...jazak Allah khayr for ur wise advice ..i'll pass it on insha'Allah

*lol* ..se7en and Arsalan ....*no comment*
Re: leading the prayer
BrKhalid
03/14/01 at 17:46:40
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]Translation of Abu Khaled's writing[/quote]

Br bhaloo isn't that your third translation in as many weeks?

I think you've found your ideal job ;)

[quote]I have found out that the more you try to learn it's never enough. I don't know if Islamic studies is the field for me. Of course one can never be an expert thorougly even in any field, but I feel as if this is the case even more so with Islam.

Not that I feel this way because of this particular subject that was brought up. What do you think, isn't that the case? [/quote]

Yeah sometimes things just don't fit into place and you can't figure stuff out. But other times it all makes perfect sense. At least Allah [swt] has granted us reward for the mere *act* of seeking knowledge ;-)
Re: leading the prayer
Saleema
03/15/01 at 21:31:04
Assalam ualykum

Eh, brother Khalid? I don't get what you mean about your statemnts about knowledge? Shouldn't knowledge be clear?
Re: leading the prayer
BrKhalid
03/16/01 at 09:11:46
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]Yeah sometimes things just don't fit into place and you can't figure stuff out. But other times it all makes perfect sense. At least Allah [SubHana Wa Ta`ala ] has granted us reward for the mere *act* of seeking knowledge[/quote]

[quote]Eh, brother Khalid? I don't get what you mean about your statemnts about knowledge? [/quote]


The point I was trying to make was that sometimes when you're dealing with a difficult concept or problem, nothing seems to make sense. At other times you just seem to comprehend something just like that without any further need for explanation.

I guess you could apply this to all types of knowledge and not just Islamic knowledge.

But reading my reply again, I don't think I actually answered your question which was:

[quote]I have found out that the more you try to learn it's never enough…. What do you think, isn't that the case?"[/quote]

I think it was one of the four Imams who said every time he learnt something new, it reminded him that he was actually lacking in knowledge prior to him acquiring the new information. It's probably true that we can never learn enough but we should keep on trying.

[quote] Shouldn't knowledge be clear?[/quote]

Hmm this is a really interesting question.

Re: leading the prayer
Ikrima
03/20/01 at 01:35:56
Assalaamu alaikum,

Very good post Saleema.

I'm sorry for bringing this up again, but I just couldn't resist.

Saleema, when the subject about "Sisters speaking at conferences" came up you said, <I agree with everything that se7en has said>.  And se7en basically disagreed with me.  Remember, I was the guy who had a "problem" with sisters speaking at conferences.

Through your own words, you have managed to beautifully explain why I or anyone else might have a "problem" with this issue.  

<<The answer is not that hard. It's quite simple, really. Men are aroused very easily just by looking at a woman, they are very visual. Sciene fact everyone learns in the 9th grade science class. While the Prophet and the sahba didn't talk in terms of nureology, they knew from experience that indeed it is true. It's a simple fact of life. Woman are not so easily aroused just by looking. Fact number 2. Woman have curves, hips and breasts. Men do not have curves, their private parts aren't so noticeable, whereas the women's are.

So, for this reason, that men *and* women are spared from unnecessary hardship and both are able to concentrate on their prayers. If women were to lead the prayers, men would most probably be paying more attention to her than on their prayers. Now, i don't want to go into further details but arousal breaks mens' wudu as well as women's if fluids are discharged.

Now, one may argue that the same could be said of the men. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but almost 99.9% of the time, women don't react in such a way, but men on seeing a women in front of them, not all but many, would be aroused. This wise rule is there for the protection of the women and for the protection of men as well from fitna.>>

FITNA! Just the word I was looking for! SubhanAllah!

<<Women are also very concious about their apperance whereas men are less so. I don't know any women whould would be comfortable, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, beding over a dozen times in a day in front of so many men.

A women's voice is not a part of her awarah. Evidence: Aisha (R) used to talk to the Sahaba when they asked for her advise on religious matters.>>

Woman's voice during a lecture becomes almost irrelevant when considering the first few paragraphs of your statement, which makes no mention of women's voice.  In other words, I don't want to debate this issue.  There is enough evidence in your other statements to support my problem, at least I think so.  I could surely be wrong, though.

<<I mean basically, *this* is what is at the bottom of this issue>>

This is also, I believe, the "bottom" of the issue I am talking about.  

Se7en said: <<Someone made the comment that this shouldn't be done because of the weaknesses of our brothers.  Instead of telling the sisters to step down from the podium, why don't we tell the brothers to shape up?  What kind of logic is this?  What next?  The brothers are weak so sisters shouldn't show up to classes of 'ilm anymore?  How far are we going to let the weaknesses of some steal the rights of others?>>

It was due to this "weakness" of man that Rasulullah SAWS enacted this rule for prayer.  I'm surprised he didn't just tell the Sahaba to "shape up" and deal with their weakness.

Wallahu A'lam.
Re: leading the prayer
se7en
03/20/01 at 15:52:36

wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah,

[quote]It was due to this "weakness" of man that Rasulullah SAWS enacted this rule for prayer.[/quote]  

Be careful when we say that this or that is the *reason* behind a command of Allah.. because there is a difference between the wisdom behind a command, and the *illah* (reason) of a command which comes from texts and evidence.  
Re: leading the prayer
Ikrima
03/20/01 at 17:10:28
Assalaamu alaikum,

Jazakillahu khair for pointing this out.  I read that last night and it didn't quite sound right, but I guess I forgot to change it.  Thanks for the reminder.

Ma'ssalaama.


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