Can this be God???

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Can this be God???
Anonymous
03/13/01 at 15:22:39
Hello everyone,

I was given a copy of the Quran to read by a friend who thought I
needed to "find God". From what I've read so far, this book was written or
dictated by a being who spends most of the time stating how magnficent
he/she is, and the rest of the time, stating how he is going to torture,
horribly, FOR ETERNITY, anyone who doesn't believe in him/her and
his/her magnificence (which of course this Being spends a great deal of time
expounding upon). These poor unfortunates will be tortured and cast
aside, even if they led exemplary, selfless and compassionate lives (the
Buddhists immediately come to mind). So, what are we, just toy soldiers
to some Cosmic Child?

I can't imagine why someone gave me this book and thought it would
actually turn me TOWARDS God (and I thought the Old Testament was bad). And
as a woman, this has REALLY not worked...

Someone told me this board was pretty cool and maybe some of you could
explain to me what I am missing???

Hope I didn't anger anyone, just trying to figure this out?

Regards,

Confused and Cynical in Carolina.
Re: Can this be God???
Kathy
03/13/01 at 16:45:06
Read chapter 93 and 94- then get back to me.
Re: Can this be God???
Saleema
03/13/01 at 16:53:26
Hello!

Answer one question please and I think this will get the discussion going, I don't know how to start answering your question. Well, how much of the Qur'an did you read? And name a few cerses that really bothered you.

You wrote, "And I thought that the Old Testament was bad!" So can I conclude from this that you do not think that the New Testament is bad? If this assumption is correct then I would like to say a few words on this. And if this assumption is bad, then I will focus on my question to you in the first paragraph.

Saleema
Re: Can this be God???
Tilopa
03/13/01 at 17:44:01
By comparison, I would say the New Testament is less "fire and brimstone" and more compassionate. I guess because God didn't send any floods or plagues in the New Testament, Jesus kinda took control in the Sequel.

As far as how much of the Quran did I read, I read it all, it was a translation by N. J. Dawood. I was also told you have to read it in Arabic to get the full import, but I don't think I want to take 4 years to learn a new language to understand it, i would think the majority should translate, no?

Read chapters 93 and 94, doesn't detract from the fact that it appears to be addressed to MUSLIMS ONLY. If I am treating the people in my house like Kings and Queens and firebombing the rest of the neighborhood, it doesn't exactly make me a paragon of virtue.

As far as some verses, I'll have to take some time to go back through it to get specific examples, but I assume you've all read it, I can't imagine you are not aware of the constant self-references of omnipotence as well as the constant condemnation and glowing descriptions of the punishments for unbelievers.  But I will go through it tonight and come up with specific references.

I also want to apologise, I am trying to not be overly disparaging, I do understand this is your religion and I respect that. I've just been through all this before (I was raised by a devout Christian who spent years trying to force the Bible on me).

I really am looking for explanations and again I apologise if I am appearing argumentative.

Thanks for responding.
Re: Can this be God???
BrKhalid
03/13/01 at 18:05:42
Welcome Tilopa

[quote]I really am looking for explanations [/quote]

If you are genuinely sincerely in this, then we will do our utmost to provide you with explanations.

But I humbly ask you not to come with pre conceived ideas. Just allow your mind to absorb what you hear and thereafter *you* can make up your own mind.


Br Khalid



Re: Can this be God???
se7en
03/13/01 at 18:15:50
Hmm.. you didn't specify the reason why you as a woman had some problems with the Qur'an, please do so if you want me or others here to respond to them.

I can see why you would be disenchanted with the old/new testament, because of the notion of all women being guilty for the original sin, and that all women are punished for it by the pains of labor.  I personally do not appreciate the sentiment that women are more inclined towards evil than men are, and the Qur'an does not say this.  In fact the Qur'an says that both men and women are equally susceptible to wrong doing, it says that both Adam and Eve were guilty of giving into temptation.

Another reason, a big reason why I think many women are unhappy with Christianity is the  concept of God as a man.  Not only that, but a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white male...  it's difficult for me to understand how Africans and people of other ethnicities can accept this concept of God.  But Islam, and the Qur'an do not say this.  At all.  God is above these characterestics.  I think one of the things that makes me personally appreciate Islam is the concept of God being *nothing* like His creation.  I'm sure in the translation of the Qur'an you have read, God is referred to as 'He'.  This is in *no way* done because God has masculine attributes (may He be glorified from that) but because of the makeup of the Arabic language.  Animate objects are masculine in the language and inanimate objects are feminine. (from what I understand)

The Qur'an is a beautiful book, that has many depths and a insurmountable amount of wisdom, maginificence, brilliance and just beauty... if you take the time to read it, study it, and ponder and reflect upon it.  There's even a verse that says that if this book was revealed to a mountain, meaning that if it were able to comprehend it in it's full meaning and depth, that mountain would crumble out of awe of the magnificence and power of this book.

I think that if you read the Qur'an without any background knowledge on Islam, you'll end up confused, frustrated, or just not appreciative of the book at all.  Please take some time to look at some of the articles on this site, or maybe ask this friend of yours to talk to you about some of the basic concepts of Islam and some of the questions that you have.  I think you need that foundation before you go into the Qur'an.  

peace.

Re: Can this be God???
se7en
03/13/01 at 19:13:14
something you might want to look at: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=751] Do Non-Muslims go to Hell?[/url]
Re: Can this be God???
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 00:53:16
I'm going to assume here that Tilopa is the same person as Anonymous.  If I'm wrong, please correct me.  In any case, my reply is for both Tilopa & Anonymous!

It is amazing that sometimes non-Muslims discover something in Islam at the very onset that Muslims take years to realize!  God loves to be magnified.  There is no question about it.  He is the Master, and we are His slaves.  This is what Islam teaches us.  And what else would any master expect from his slave than glorification, magnification and obedience - especially if this master is the Master of all creation?

It is no wonder that every Surah of the Qur'an starts out by praising God twice (In the Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful).  It is no wonder that the Qur'an itself starts out with a chapter which is 50% praise and 50% supplication.  And Tilopa is right that alot of the Qur'an talks about how Glorious Allah is.

But why is this so disturbing?  You have to realize who Allah is talking to in this book.  He is talking to mankind, a race which is prone to FORGET and overlook realities!  Most of mankind's mistakes stem from the fact that he forgets how little he is in the grand scheme of things, and that his acts are always being watched and accounted for by a Being which is indeed Grand and Great!  If only man would keep this in his mind at all times, most of the problems in the world wouldn't happen.

This realization, that God is indeed Great - the Greatest - also gives solace to the slave.  Once you realize that God is the only one who is Truly Great, then He is the only one you fear.  The only one you put your hope into.  And the only one you turn to for help.  

No fear!  That becomes the slogan of a true believer.  He only fears Allah - the Creator, the Sustainer.  Nobody else.  Nothing else.  Not poverty.  Not hunger.  No affliction.  Not even Death itself, for he realize that the Great One is All-Wise, and that death itself is better for him in the grand scheme of things, because it is by the Will of the Great One!

Let's get on with your next point - about the fact that the Qur'an so often talks about the punishment that the people will face who do not "believe in him/her and his/her magnificence."

Please note that this is not entirely true.  The punishment is not only for those who do not believe in Him, but also for those who do not act according to His Ordinances.  Belief is ultimately manifested in actions - righteous actions.  And it is the latter that Allah *really* wants from us.  

Righteous actions!

"Hmm..."  I can see the question on your mind:  "Then what about all the righteous people who did not believe in your God?  People like Mother Teresa?"

Her actions, although some of them may be good, cannot truly be considered "righteous" in totality from an Islamic stand-point, because they stemmed from disbelief in God.  

"Huh?"

Flow with me here!  It'll start making sense in a bit.

Remember, Allah is the Creator.  He created us, and knows how we think, what's good for us, and what's bad for us, even better than we know it ourselves!  A computer engineer knows about the computer more than the computer itself!  

It is only proper, then, for the Creator Himself to tell us what's good and what's bad.  He knows the Future and the Past.  He knows the consequences of things.  He knows the laws of science better than any scientist can every discover, because He *made* those laws Himself!

But Mother Teresa did what she thought was right, and never bothered to find out if what she did was indeed right according to God!  But if she had believed in God, the One True God, then her actions would have been in tune with the Pleasure of Allah, and she would have truly been a "righteous" lady, from an Islamic point of view.

So back to your question then.  Why does Allah spend so much time talking about the punishment for those who do not believe in Him?  Because their disbelief will lead them to do what they *think* is right.  This will lead to chaos in the world, because human minds are very subjective and biased.  Such chaos will not only hurt you as an individual, but the entire human society that you live in.  And this crime is too huge to be taken lightly.

Combine that with the forgetfulness of man that I pointed out earlier, and it makes a lot of sense why Allah spends so much time reminding mankind of the importance of Belief in Him, and the grave consequences in the Hereafter for disbelieving.

One thing that you didn't talk about in your message, but I think is relevant here, and also related to what I already said, is the concept of accountability in the Afterlife.  I think you would not disagree with me if I said that human beings act in a more disciplined manner when they KNOW that they are accountable for their actions.  A simple example of you driving on a highway, and suddenly slowing down seeing a cop's car explains this idea I think.

Thus Muslims believe in accountability in the Afterlife, when everyone will be accountable for all the deeds that they perform in this life.  And each person, male and female, will be given their recompense that day for Eternity.  On that day, those who did what they were asked to do, i.e. believed in Allah and did righteous deeds, will be awarded with Eternal Bliss.  And those who did what they were warned not to do will be awarded with Eternal Torment.

This concept is not new to Islam.  It is there in all monotheistic religions.  Something that should ADD to its validity I think!

One last thing.

Your analogy of you treating your household like Kings and Queens while firebombing the rest of the neighborhood with how Allah will treat the Believer and the Unbelievers doesn't really work.  You are being selfish if you do this, because you are favoring YOUR people over OTHERS.  

Allah isn't!

Allah is favoring those who worked HARD in this life to stay away from temptations, desires, and all that is evil, to please their Master, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.  He is punishing those who rebelled, who KNOWINGLY and stubbornly, out of their own Free Will (which is granted to every one of us by Allah) went AGAINST His Commandments, although they were emphatically TOLD and repeatedly REMINDED about the Hereafter.  

His reward and punishment are fair and just.  I don't think anyone can deny that.  And if they are indeed fair and just, then what is the problem?

Think about what I have said.  If this helps removing some of the cloud from your mind, I'm thankful to Allah for helping you.  If it does not, come back and ask more questions.  Don't worry about us getting offended.  As long as you're not intentionally trying to do that, we won't :)

May Allah show you, and all of us, the Right Path and keep us firm on it.

Take care.
Re: Can this be God???
jannah
03/14/01 at 03:49:17
[quote]Hello everyone,

I was given a copy of the Quran to read by a friend who thought I
needed to "find God".
[/quote]

Hi Anonymous, Many people have found alot of wisdom and truth in the Quran, but it is probably better if your friend gives you some general books about Islam that explains what it's all about.

The Quran is a very complex book and has alot of meanings behind it. The Quran is the Word of God and it is what Islam is based upon but it does not exist in a vacuum.
We have to look at all the verses in relation to each other and in relation to the actions of the prophet as well as the companions and the good muslims that came after, including many scholars.  There are volumes and volumes of Tafseer books (commentaries & explanations) on the Quran and this is a whole science in itself.

[quote]From what I've read so far, this book was written or
dictated by a being who spends most of the time stating how magnficent
he/she is, and the rest of the time, stating how he is going to torture,
horribly, FOR ETERNITY, anyone who doesn't believe in him/her and
his/her magnificence (which of course this Being spends a great deal of time
expounding upon).
[/quote]

I think your statement is based upon the idea that God is like a human person that needs praise or shows off. If we get past our anthropomorphic tendencies and think about it from the prospective of a CREATOR it is more easily understandable that the Creator would write about Himself to make the Creation understand who He is. As for talking about heaven and hell that is the whole purpose of our existence. To live our lives as a test and then be judged on this.

God be exalted from any analogies but let's say
for example someone creates a robot and then would like that robot to understand why he was created. The person might write out a manual explaining everything and what would happen depending on the choices the robot made.

God has created us and given us our manual - the Quran to help guide us in this life and tell us all about our choices and what they lead to. As for why God is praised so much or exalted in the Quran, it's because He is God. Why shouldn't He help describe Himself to his creation with such titles as The Merciful, The Compassionate, The Just, The Judge and The Praise-Worthy and so on. He does not *NEED*
any of our worship or praise as He says himself.
Being a good Muslim - to follow what our Creator deems best is for our own good.

[quote]
These poor unfortunates will be tortured and cast
aside, even if they led exemplary, selfless and compassionate lives (the
Buddhists immediately come to mind). So, what are we, just toy soldiers
to some Cosmic Child?
[/quote]

If you are told what the correct thing to do is and then you go and do something else, is that right?  If someone rapes or kills or hurts someone, is that OK?  Should a rapist and someone who devoted their life to God, end up in the same place or both end up as dust?  That is the whole point to Islam. Humans will be judged based upon their actions. It also isn't up to you where someone will end up. What if there was someone way up in the mountains who lived a life like you said devoted to God and to help other people and never heard about Islam? According to what you wrote this person would end up in Hell for eternity? Again it isn't your decision to make, it is up to God because only He knows what peoples intentions, choices, knowledge and actions meant and can weigh everything accordingly.

But why should God just let everyone do what they want and judge everyone in the end? Wouldn't it be better, more FAIR,  if He gave us some guidelines in the beginning. This is why he sent us prophets and books anyway.. to help humankind understand what was best for us and what is *good* and what isn't.

So whether these exemplary, selfless people have heard about what is right and rejected it or whether they haven't is up to God. But since we can't know that right now we each, individually should search for the guidance we think is the truth which explains what is right and wrong and try to follow it.

[quote]
I can't imagine why someone gave me this book and thought it would
actually turn me TOWARDS God
[/quote]
Again, it is unfortunate that the message of the Quran for you was lost among the misunderstanding of the outward words.

[quote]
(and I thought the Old Testament was bad).
[/quote]

Since it's been changed from the original it is bad.

[quote]
And
as a woman, this has REALLY not worked...
[/quote]

I'm not sure what this means. I'm a woman too and Islam works very well for me along with half a billion other women in the world. If you think Islam or the Quran is biased against women or something maybe you can tell us why you would think that?

[quote]
Someone told me this board was pretty cool and maybe some of you could
explain to me what I am missing???
[/quote]

It is cool ;)

[quote]
Hope I didn't anger anyone, just trying to figure this out?
[/quote]

Not at all.. whichever way you want to live your life or believe is your choice alone. What is important though is that you give Islam --the true understanding of islam-- a fair chance. Once you come to know what Islam really stands for, it's teachings, practice and ideaology, the rest is up to you. Believe it or not, I actually admire those ppl that used to come on IRC or on here and say "so why the heck do you belive that".. they are really people who are trying to understand why muslims are so sure in their belief of something when it seems so messed up and wrong to them. i think that's much more open-minded and tolerant that others who might reject something without even listening to it.

btw you mentioned he/she in relation to God and in the Quran references to God are translated linguistically as He, but in Islam the Creator is not defined as a she or a he -in human like terms at all and like what was said before, God is so far above the creation that gender doesn't even apply.

Take care,

[quote]
Regards,
Confused and Cynical in Carolina.
[/quote]

Hopeful and Happy? in New York. :)
Re: Can this be God???
Tilopa
03/14/01 at 07:26:57
This response is mainly addressed to the post by Arsalan:

[quote]
I'm going to assume here that Tilopa is the same person as Anonymous
[/quote]
Your assumption is correct.

[quote]
No fear!  That becomes the slogan of a true believer.  He only fears Allah
[/quote]

So you are saying Muslims do the right thing out of fear, not because it's the right thing to do.

[quote]
But Mother Teresa did what she thought was right, and never bothered to find out if what she did was indeed right according to God!  
[/quote]

My friend, we can basically stop right here, because if you are telling me your God will comdemn a saint like Mother Teresa to eternal damnation and sufffering, this is not a religion for me, and SHAME ON YOUR GOD!

[quote]
This will lead to chaos in the world, because human minds are very subjective and biased.
[/quote]

There are certainly many cultures who are not Islamic that are far from being in chaos, and there are just as many Islamic countries that ARE in chaos.  This is a weak argument.

[quote]
You are being selfish if you do this, because you are favoring YOUR people over OTHERS.  

Allah isn't!
[/quote]

Didn't Allah favour the Isrealites for centuries over the rest of his "children"?

[quote]

His reward and punishment are fair and just
[/quote]

I disagree. Fair and just to Muslims maybe, but the fact remains, if you are saying--and I believe you are--that you can lead the life of a Mother Teresa and if you don't grovel and shake in front of Allah, you are in the Fire forever.  I am sorry, and I, once again, am not meaning to offend, but this goes against every concept of a "perfect" Creator.

My friends, there are just as many non-Muslims liveing pious, selfless, compassionate lives, and they don't need eternal damnation and the concept of The All-Powerful hanging over their heads. They do it because it is the right thing to do.

Well, I have more to say, but I have to get to work.  Have a nice day.

Tilopa
Re: Can this be God???
Tilopa
03/14/01 at 07:31:17
i really have to get to work, but one quick comment to Jannah:

[quote]
If someone rapes or kills or hurts someone, is that OK?  Should a rapist and someone who devoted their life to God, end up in the same place or both end up as dust?  
[/quote]

Not all non-Mulsims are rapists.  See my point about Mother Teresa in my previous post.

More later--TTFN.
Re: Can this be God???
jannah
03/14/01 at 09:03:20

[quote]
Not all non-Mulsims are rapists.  See my point about Mother Teresa in my previous post.
[/quote]

I don't believe I made that statement. Again, Mother Teresa will be judged by God not by us.
Re: Can this be God???
Anonymous
03/14/01 at 13:35:00
This is in regards to Tilopa's questions.

In my limited understanding, Muslims are not the chosen people (like
the jews) nor are they the forgiven ones (like the christians).  Like the
earlier posts have already mentioned, muslims are accountable for their
actions.  There is no free ticket to paradise.  Proclamation of faith
by the tongue should be reflected by actions.

A Muslim's firm adherence to the Quran stems, first, from his belief in
the absolute authority of God (no partners) and His oneness.  Without
this concept of God, the Quran not may not make much sense (brothers and
sisters, please correct me if I am out of line here).  Muslims believe
that Allah is the supreme being the ultimate creator of all creations.
Only He decides, how His slaves ought to please Him.

When you have guests over at your house, do you just do as you please
or do you try really hard to please them according to their desires.  
Shouldn't the creator of the universe have a say in how He can be
pleased?  Allah tells muslims exactly that through the Quran.

As for Mother Teresa, Allah will judge her actions.  Just keep in mind
that actions done with good will does not always lead to good results.  
And what you may see to be good may not be good in the bigger picture.  
Again we can go back and forth non-stop on this subject but like I
said, it all boils down to what is really your concept of Allah, God or
whatever it is that you derive your guidance from.

Tilopa, what is your concept of God?  or Do you even believe in God?  
What or who do you worship?

--Muhib
Re: Can this be God???
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 16:10:30
[quote]So you are saying Muslims do the right thing out of fear, not because it's the right thing to do.[/quote]I didn't want to get into this because it is a little off topic, but since you have brought it up, I'll try to explain it insha Allah (God willing).  If you do not understand what I'm saying, simply ignore it.  

Belief has grades.  A believer can increase or decrease in his/her firmness of belief with time and circumstances, and his own consistency in doing good deeds and obedience to Allah.  One believer may do what is right because he fears Allah.  Another may do what is right because he wants to get the Reward from Allah in the Afterlife.  Yet another may do what is right because he LOVES to do what Allah loves to see us do!  

These are three, very different grades of a believer.  The first being the lowest grade, and the third being the highest grade.  However, ALL THREE must be present, at least to some extent, in a believer's heart whenever an action is performed.  Maybe the overwhelming reason why I pray 5 times a day is because I fear Allah's punishment.  However, there's a part of me, a very small part, which does it because I love Allah, and I love to please him.  And there is also a small part of me which does it because I want to snatch my place in Paradise, I hope and long for that.

A scholar described this concept of fear, hope and love as the head and two wings of a bird.  If you take away any of the three completely, the bird will cease flying and fall to the ground.  All three are needed for true belief.  Which contributes the most to one's actions is simply a measure of how pure one's belief really is.


[quote]if you are telling me your God will comdemn a saint like Mother Teresa to eternal damnation and sufffering, this is not a religion for me, and SHAME ON YOUR GOD![/quote]First of all, I will remind you that you are trying to *learn* about the Islamic concept of God with an open mind.  So please do not curse my God by saying what you said in Caps.  I will overlook it this time because it is, perhaps, said out of emotions.  

As Jannah said, what God decides to do with Mother Teresa is His business.  He is the Judge, not you OR me.  He is the Wise, and we expect him to make a wise decision.  He is also fair, and we expect him to make a fair decision.  

I should not have used Mother Teresa, or any individual as an example.  Allah knows best what he will do with Mother Teresa, or any other Tom, Dick or Harry.  I was simply trying to make a general point about the importance of both belief and righteousness.  

The general rule in the Qur'an is that one must believe AND do righteous deeds to be saved in the Afterlife.  One, without the other, is not enough.  We stop at that, and do not try to judge specific people based on our own judgments.  Allah knows best what he will do with each and every one of us.

[quote]There are certainly many cultures who are not Islamic that are far from being in chaos, and there are just as many Islamic countries that ARE in chaos.  This is a weak argument.[/quote]I think your argument is weaker.  Give me one example of a "culture who [is] not Islamic that [is] far from being in chaos."  Just one.  And I will show you why and how it is indeed in chaos.

Mind you, there is NO "Islamic country" in today's world.  None.  An Islamic nation is called a "khilaafah", or a Caliphate, in which the ruler is approved by all the constituents by a formal action called "bai'ah" and he rules by the Law of Allah (i.e. the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet).  Such a nation existed from the 7th century up to the early 20th century.  The last Islamic khilaafah was destroyed after WWI because of the corruption of the rulers, and their rejection to live and rule by the commandments of Allah.

For one thousand years, from the 7th century until well into the 17th century, Muslims ruled the world with the most non-chaotic governing that the world has ever seen.  I beseech you to read an objective book on World History for further information on this.

The Muslims themselves are to blame for their pathetic condition in today's times.  If we would only live our lives as Allah wants us to live them, we would not be in the condition that we are in.  

[quote]Didn't Allah favour the Isrealites for centuries over the rest of his "children"?[/quote]This is not an Islamic concept, but a Judeo-Christian one.  The Islamic concept is very clear:

"The best of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous (or pious) among you."  (Surah al-Hujuraat).

Allah never favored the Israelites OVER others, because they were His children!  He bestowed his favors on the Children of Israel by sending to them many Prophets, as he did to all the nations in the world.  Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told us that every nation, in every time, was sent a Prophet to guide them.  

I beseech you to notice the differences between Islam and other religions, and not to mix concepts between different faiths.

[quote]I disagree. Fair and just to Muslims maybe, but the fact remains, if you are saying--and I believe you are--that you can lead the life of a Mother Teresa and if you don't grovel and shake in front of Allah, you are in the Fire forever.  I am sorry, and I, once again, am not meaning to offend, but this goes against every concept of a "perfect" Creator.[/quote]First of all, there is no such thing as a "concept" of a "perfect" Creator!  That statement itself is oxymoronic.  The Creator - to those who believe in Him - is not a concept, but a reality.  He is what He is!  And He is Perfect in His Being.  If we don't like one of His attributes, that's our problem, not His!  

Anyway, back to your point.  Again, it was my mistake to talk about an individual.  The general case, though, remains the same.  Allah will reward those who are work hard to fulfill his commandments, and stay away from temptations, desires, and all evil.  And he will punish those who KNOWINGLY disobey His commands, even after repeated WARNINGS from him not to do so!  

How is this not fair?!?

[quote]My friends, there are just as many non-Muslims liveing pious, selfless, compassionate lives, [/quote]Define "pious," "selfless," and "compassionate."

I challenge you to do a survey!  Take a 100 people, all of them from different backgrounds, different races, religions and ethnicity.  It would be best if you could get a 100 atheists/agnostics together to do this!  Ask them to define, in their own words, these three terms.  Let's add some more spice to this!  Include specific examples of ACTIONS, and ask them to grade it pious or unpious, selfless or selfish, and compassionate or mean!  I'm willing to bet any amount of money that their responses will be VERY different!!!

Not every person has the same definition of what is pious and what is not, selfless or selfish, compassionate or mean!  People are driven by their cultural/ethnical/intellectual/circumstancial biases!  This is a physiological fact.  We need someone, one who knows EVERYTHING, to tell us what is virtuous and what is not, what is selfish and what is selfless, and what is compassionate and what is mean.  Who can that being be than God Himself - the one who created us, our instincts, our desires, and our nature, and everything around us??

[quote]and they don't need eternal damnation and the concept of The All-Powerful hanging over their heads.  They do it because it is the right thing to do.[/quote]Right according to them.  But WRONG and despicable according to others!  This is the chaos that I was talking about earlier.

The do, indeed, need the concept of the All-Powerful and the All-Knowing hanging over their heads, so that their actions are Guided by the one who knows everything.  And they do indeed need to be warned about eternal damnation, so they can make sure not to fall onto the road that deals with it.  This is the Mercy of Allah, that he sends us these reminders, again and again, through a hoard full of Prophets.  And still, we do not believe!!!

[quote]Have a nice day.[/quote]You too.  

Thanks for taking this concept so seriously.  Few is the number of those who see with their own eyes, and think with their own minds.

Take care.
Re: Can this be God???
Tilopa
03/14/01 at 16:42:51
Before you get your back up about my "comment in caps" remember that was based on what *YOU* said Allah will do with Mother Teresa, and my point was EXACTLY that you have no right to say what Allah is going to do with her. No need to beat that particular dead horse. I meant no insult, was merely attempting to prove a point aimed at YOUR statement regarding the fate of M. Teresa. For what it's worth, I apologise if I offended you.

Moving on...

I was going to do a lot of cut & pasting of your post, but I'd be here all night. You say a requirement of salvation is righteous deeds AND belief. So we are back to, if you are righteous but NOT a believer, into the fire you go. You also seem pretty secure in your belief that non-Mulims 1) are in chaos, 2) cannot be pious or righteous and probably can't even define the words.  Forgive me, but i think that is terribly naive.  I'm pretty sure the Pope, the Dalai Lama, my father--all non-Muslims to name just three, can define these words as well as 99% of the Muslim population.  And if I drive around my town, my state, clearly there is no chaos, but I don't live in an Islamic state.  And as far as the survey goes, I don't really actually get the point in doing this.

However... I am here to tell you, I know a few Muslims, but I know a LOT of Buddhists, Christians, Jews, agnostics and atheists who I would say WITHOUT A DOUBT not only understand how to live a righteous life, but they DO live it.  

As far as your challenge to provide a country that is not Islamic but is not in chaos, let's face it, this whole WORLD is in chaos. But let me issue you the same challenge: Is Palestine, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Chechnya, Tajikistan, Pakistan, India... are any of these countries absent of chaos? No, of course not. So don't ask me to do something that you can't do yourself. As I said, relatively speaking this whole world is in chaos to some degree or another.

You know what guys, I just realised something that is probably obvious to you. I really CAN'T discuss this non-emotionally.  Just too much water under the bridge in this old gal's life.  Too many inconsistencies, too much left to blind faith. I guess I'm just one of those who Allah chose to "set a seal on their hearts". It saddens me that He actually created some of us with the express purpose to fail and to go to Hell (isn't that what the preordainment thing is all about). You would think if He REALLY loved all of us, none of us would have been predestined to fail.

IN parting, I will say, I DO know how to live a proper life, and I don't need the fear of punishment or the reward of Paradise as a motivation to do it. Whereever we came from, however we got here, it seems obvious that we have a built-in knowledge of what is good and what is not. But I can't believe your God would allow all the evil and suffering to go on here. I just can't. Even if you say, oh yes, but it will all seem so trivial when we get to Paradise, the fact is, right here, right now, people are suffering GREATLY and that just stinks. I also have a hard time with the whole animal sacrifice issue. No need to go there, I am just saying, there are just too many things about God/Allah that I don't think I will ever be able to rectify.

I am sorry if I riled everyone up, I guess I really had my mind made up already, huh? Just thought I would give it a shot. Thanks for at least addressing my issues. I will try to give Islam a fair shot at some point, but I just have too many "problems" with it right now.

All the best to all of you, and really, thanks for putting up with me and my tirades.



Tilopa.
Re: Can this be God???
BrKhalid
03/14/01 at 18:00:05
Tilopa

[quote]I guess I really had my mind made up already, huh? [/quote]

Anytime you want to come back with an open mind, we'll be happy to help


Re: Can this be God???
jannah
03/14/01 at 22:18:52
Tilopa,

I think the whole thing boils down to whether or not you think there is a God. And if there is a God and He sent guidance to human beings on how to live, where is it and what is it?  

So is the message of Islam  from God or not?... that's what makes us Muslim or not right..

I think that we should not speculate on the who goes where question. That is God's right and since we're not God we don't know everything. All we know is from what He sent us, which says if you do this, this happens, if you're like this then this happens. Whether or not people fit in that category is God's judgement.

If you truly believe in God, I don't think anyone can believe that He would be unjust to anyone in the world. I also don't think that anyone could believe that He would just leave us here on the earth to do as we pleased. You said that you are living a proper life without Islam and don't need it to tell you what is right or wrong. I would challenge that statement because people are inherently subjective, what might be right to you might be wrong to someone else. To some people in the world abject greed and materialism and using other ppl is just fine. To others killing innocent ppl is fine and so on. Since people are human they make mistakes and they all have different opinions on what's right and wrong. So, in the end the only way we truly know if what we're doing is right or wrong is to look to a higher source. and why not look to our CREATOR who knows exactly what we are made up of, our intentions, our desires, or inner hopes and choices.

And again if you believe in God how can you believe that he would not give each of us a fair chance? like you said, what is the point of creating us if it was just to put us into Hell?  So again I tell you that Islam's position on God is that He is scrupulously fair and will never be unjust to any person down to every atom's weight of deed. God only puts a seal on those hearts of people who refuse guidance. Look at all the verses that mention this in context:

[i]
Thus do We seal the hearts of the transgressors. (10:47)
Thus doth Allah seal up the hearts of those who reject faith. (7:101)
...they broke their covenant; that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right;... Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts (4:155)
That is because they believed, then they rejected Faith: So a seal was set on their hearts: therefore they understand not. (63:3)
[/i]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God sealed up people's hearts that didn't already make that choice.


I think your grappling with Islam comes down to two main issues.. first the whole belief in God and why would He send guidance and if so how.

..and the second issue is with understanding some of the laws of islam because at first glance they look odd and harsh to some.

The second issue is easier to overcome because I think you can just ask people about these and once you have a better understanding of the law, why it was revealed, the wisdoms behind it, scholarly opinion etc they make alot of sense.

The first issue is something you have to come to realize yourself, and actually the rest of the stuff probably follows from that.

So I would just suggest that you take some time and just think about God and about guidance and purpose for awhile. (Without thinking specifically about any religion.)  Then, read what Islam says about God and guidance and purpose and see if it makes sense. The rest you can take from there.

I hope that helps. May God guide you to the truth wherever it may be.
Re: Can this be God???
mwhaider
03/14/01 at 22:20:20

[quote]
You know what guys, I just realised something that is probably obvious to you. I really CAN'T discuss this non-emotionally.  Just too much water under the bridge in this old gal's life.  Too many inconsistencies, too much left to blind faith.
[/quote]

your emotions r the force tht drive u. don't loose hope, u r a searching soul and those find the truth who look for it. hang in there.

[quote]
I guess I'm just one of those who Allah chose to "set a seal on their hearts".
[/quote]

very unlikely...first our deeds make our heart hard like rock and sealed. second ur inquisitiveness show ur willingness to find the Truth, which goes to say it is not sealed.

[quote]
It saddens me that He actually created some of us with the express purpose to fail and to go to Hell (isn't that what the preordainment thing is all about). You would think if He REALLY loved all of us, none of us would have been predestined to fail.
[/quote]

fate is not abt tht, in our "actions" v r free to choose right n wrong, though in some "circumstances" we have no control. our life depends upon our actions not circumstances as same adversity bring out the good in one while other blame the conditions.

[quote]
IN parting, I will say, I DO know how to live a proper life, and I don't need the fear of punishment or the reward of Paradise as a motivation to do it.
[/quote]

smiles... u r better than many in my belief.

[quote]
Whereever we came from, however we got here, it seems obvious that we have a built-in knowledge of what is good and what is not.
[/quote]

i agree, its called conscience, soul etc. we came from God, He put it there.

[quote]
But I can't believe your God would allow all the evil and suffering to go on here. I just can't. Even if you say, oh yes, but it will all seem so trivial when we get to Paradise, the fact is, right here, right now, people are suffering GREATLY and that just stinks.
[/quote]

your God and mine is the same Wonderful being.
dont b so aloof with Him :)
If God were to relate virtue with prosperity and sin with suffering in this world, then everybody wud do good and how wud He differentiate among them.
You give ur semester exams/tests and then ur teacher grade u.

[quote]
I also have a hard time with the whole animal sacrifice issue. No need to go there, I am just saying, there are just too many things about God/Allah that I don't think I will ever be able to rectify.
[/quote]

This is His bounty on us to give so many things v can use as our food.
As for the animal, Allah knows the mystery of them. How Allah deals with their soul.


[quote]
I am sorry if I riled everyone up, I guess I really had my mind made up already, huh? Just thought I would give it a shot. Thanks for at least addressing my issues. I will try to give Islam a fair shot at some point, but I just have too many "problems" with it right now.

All the best to all of you, and really, thanks for putting up with me and my tirades.

Tilopa.[/quote]

Hey, dont b sorry and i feel sorry if i cudnt satisfy ur questions due to my lack of knowledge.

Put up ur questions/problems one by one and InshaAllah God will help.

Please dont give up so soon. i really do wish tht u can find ur God, Who is my God too :) Beleive me, He is the Best.

Take Care
waseem
Re: Can this be God???
UmmZaid
03/15/01 at 00:49:13
Well, I don't know if you are still here, Tilopa, but I wanted to add my comments for the record.

I would start out by saying that I think it is tragic that the "translation" you are reading is one by N.J. Dawood, and I'm surprised none of the brothers and sisters picked up on that before.  That "translation" has to be one of the worst out there (if not the worst), I've read it.  It isn't even *close* to what the Qur'an itself is saying, and it is full of errors in terms of numbering and just little things  like that.  At *best,* I would say it is a lazy translation (one that relies heavily upon a 15th Cent. Latin translation, btw).  I would *NEVER* give this translation to a non Muslim thinking it will bring them to  Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala.  (If a Muslim gave it to you, that is the first time I've ever even heard of a Muslim giving it away or recommending it.  It is generally agreed upon by English speaking Muslims that this "translation" is worthless.)  If anything, it would do exactly what it has done for you -- drive you away from the religion, and give you the idea that you think you know this religion, when in fact, if that's all you've got, you don't.  I don't even know that I would give a Qur'an to a non Muslim expecting them to learn Islam from it, because without knowledge of Arabic or a widely accepted translation, AND a proper and commonly accepted exegesis (commentary), it can  mislead people.  

You come on here as a guest, and get all riled up when we don't agree with your particular world view.  Mother Theresa, Dalai Lama... I can agree that these people have done good things in their lifetime.  However, what we are failing to do is to measure this against what Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala tells us to do.  Things like rape and murder and robbery are right in front of us, and affect us all on a daily basis.  So we tend to look at these things as terrible, horrible things (which they are), the worst.  But Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala says that the WORST thing a person can do is to deny Him!  He says in His Qur'an what is translated as, "I did not create men and jinn but to worship Me."  (51:56)  Of course, not worshipping Him as He has asked us to doesn't seem so bad in a society where we worry about walking in a parking lot after dark, but as Muslims, we do believe that the gravity of this deed will be larger than life on the Day of Judgment.  

Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala says in His Qur'an what is translated as: "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (5:3)  And He has also said what is translated as: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will It be accepted of Him." (3:85)  The good deeds of any human being will be naught on the day when He examines how we chose to live our life if that  person chose to deny the One Who Created her / him.

This may seem arbitrary, or harsh.  I understand, because I was raised in the same culture, and so I was immersed in the prevailing world view that says it's all good, as long as it hurts no one.  But this is a world view that denies the world to come, and says that this world is the only one that matters.  If you think that the spiritual / religious views put forth in this society aren't directly affected by consumer culture, you are sadly  mistaken.  

I can't answer the question, really, as to why Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala created us to worship Him, only that He was a beautiful thing which was hidden, and He wished to be known.  Part of the arrogance of our age is that we think we have to know the answer to everything, and if we are told, "We just don't know yet," then we reject it.  That is why this is called faith.  

The core message of Islam is not it's social laws, or it's dietary laws, or it's criminal laws, or anything else.  The status of the people in Palestine, or any other Muslim-majority country is irrelevant at this point, although anyone of us can sit here and expound on the sociological and political reasons for the suffering of Muslims around the world.

The core message of Islam is that Allah subahnnahu wa ta'ala is ONE, without partners, that He is not begotten, nor does He beget.  He does not come in the form of a man or a woman, and He does not die.  He is the Ever Lasting and Eternal, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate, the Oft Forgiving, the Loving, and the Guide.  

You have approached Islam expecting the "angry, jealous" God of the OT, and unfortunately, because of the translation you have, that is what you have gotten.  Muslims know differently.

Allah subhannahu wa ta'ala asks very little of mankind.  He asks us to worship Him alone, without partners, and to live according to our love of Him, ie treating others right.  In exchange for this, He is willing to shower us with His Mercy, to give us a home in His Garden, for eternity, and to allow us a glimpse of His Countenance.  In His Mercy, He has sent us the Qur'an al Karim, His Final Message to *all mankind,* regardless of race, gender, or ethnicity.  The Book is not just a reminder of what is to come if we do right by Him, but, as the Final Revelation, it is a warning of what is to come if we oppress Him by denying His very essence.  

If you say "There is nothing worthy of worship but Allah, and Muhammad ibn Abdullah is His Servant and Messenger," then I, and every Muslim here, guarantees you felicity in this world and the next, by the guarantee of Allah and His Messenger (sallalahu aleyhi wa salaam).  

Now, if you have read this, and if you have read anything else about Islamic belief about One God without Partners, and you still reject this belief, then, as Muslims, we are all obligated to say to you, "To you be your way, to me mine." (Qur'an, 109:6).  As long as I, and everyone else here, has informed you of the true Message of Islam, then we are relieved of being held responsible for your rejection of faith on the Last Day.  
Re: Can this be God???
mwhaider
03/15/01 at 02:48:50
my friend researched and i am just posting.
N.J. Dawood is an Iraqi Jew.

Koran translation by N.J. Dawood, Penguin Classics.
------------------------------------------
 Surah 4 - Women (Al Nisa) verse 34: "Men have authority over women  because God has made /the/ one superior to the other, and because  they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.  They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them (hymen).  As for those from whom you fear disobediance, admonish them *and* send  them to beds apart *and* beat them. Then if they obey you take no  further action against them. God is high, supreme."
Another translation:
 "Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in  the husband's absence what God would have them guard (their vagina,  i.e. hymen). As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and  ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them;  but if they return in obedience, seek not against them means: for  God is Most High, Great above you all."

According to the Koran, it is a man's right to beat women he is supporting financially, until the women submit to his demands.
Who are we to argue with God? So go ahead: rape and beat women;  God =WANTS= you to!

--------------------------------------------

Now the correct translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
http://www.islam101.com/quran/quranYusuf/quranYusuf.html

004.034  Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given
the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their
means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share
their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all).

------------------------------------------

Please note the difference in the first translation of NJ where he used *and* and also the second translation.

However, from the other trnslation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali it is apparent that one shudnt proceed to next if first works or last shudnt be done if next step works.

JazakAllah UmmZaid for an eye opener.

wassalam
Re: Can this be God???
Kashif
03/15/01 at 03:49:34
astaghfirullah! I can't believe that thats what written in NJ Dawood's translation!
NS
Re: Can this be God???
bhaloo
03/15/01 at 10:36:47
slm

I was going to comment on NJ Dawood's translation, but then I saw Tilopa's post at the end, and I didn't (yes, I know I should have commented).  Anyways I have this book at home and it is terrible.  I have seen where they take 4 verses from the Quran and combine them as one sentence.  

By the way, NJ Dawood was not a Muslim, he was a Jew.
Re: Can this be God???
sis
03/15/01 at 11:04:38
Tilopa,

i pray that u and every person be guided to what is best,  the truth

and i urge u to continue ur search..as jannah said.."take some time and just think about God and about guidance and purpose for awhile. (Without thinking specifically about any religion.) " ..

the most important thing u need to do is to understand God,  the Oneness of God, the belief in God, because without this,  u will find a lot of confusion in trying to understand the faith of a muslim and everything that should stem from that faith - and also the guidelines set out by God for mankind...

to read a better translation of the Noble Qur'an,  pls go to www.al-huda.ca ..there are 3 translations which are lined up together for each verse of the Qur'an ...the translations are by Yusuf Ali, Pickthall,  and Shakir ....i hope just by looking at the meanings each one gives to a verse,  u will appreciate that not even a group of translations can really do justice to the meanings in the language God chose to reveal the Qur'an in....it will give u the idea of what the meanings are

...u seem frustrated that u could not find an immediately satisfying answer to ur inquiries...the good things are worth the struggle - and the search for the truth is the most worthwhile - be patient,  as Allah (God) says in the Noble Qur'an., {Verily, with every difficulty there is relief} 94:6

something that was said to me when i began to study Islam more was that there is much knowledge in Islam and it takes time to learn it ..ur not gonna gain all that knowlege over night
...but do strive to do ur best and understand:-)
Re: Can this be God???
Arsalan
03/15/01 at 17:55:16
[slm]

I had no idea about NJ Dawood's translation, or that he was a Jew!

Subhan Allah!  Had I known, that would have been the first thing I would have talked about in my post.

Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illaa billaah.
Re: Can this be God???
jannah
03/15/01 at 18:05:10
[wlm]

I think this is a good example of why we can't just hand someone a translation of the Quran and leave them, expecting them to understand everything about Islam and not answer their questions and doubts as they have them.


[quote]I think that if you read the Qur'an without any background knowledge on Islam, you'll end up confused, frustrated, or just not appreciative of the book at all.  Please take some time to
 look at some of the articles on this site, or maybe ask this friend of yours to talk to you about some of the basic concepts of Islam and some of the questions that you have.  I think
 you need that foundation before you go into the Qur'an.  [/quote]
Re: Can this be God???
ABD
03/16/01 at 11:57:59
Assalamu Alaikum,

As a Muslim student in the US, a country where people have found their religion and are able to practice their religion freely, I cannot find a reason why that person has given you that copy of the Qur'an. As some people have already responded to this post, how many verses have you read from the Qur'an? The Qur'an is a guider in the lives of the Muslims. The Qur'an tells us what's right and wrong, how to live our lives, what actions that Allah accepts and finds righteous, and what actions that he prohibits for us to do. The Qur'an helps us live our lives in accordance to Allah and summarizes all the things we need to know to become a righteous follower of Allah.
Allah will surely punish those who deny him and his powers and will put them in Hell because they busied themselves with the Earthly delicacies instead of thanking Allah for all that he has given us. However, he will reward his followers with jewels and things which we cannot imagine. Those who have obeyed him will be rewarded with the beauties in Heaven.
InshaAllah you will find the true truth of the Qur'an and know the importance of it to the Muslim community.

Salam
Re: Can this be God???
chachi
03/25/01 at 16:19:50

Salaam

Doing What YOU think is Good is not necessarily The GOOD

you state you do not see much chaos in amrika..have you ever seen the drunks on the streets?..the junkies?...have you seen the wretched of the earth who must starve because you want 6% interest on money loaned by your government to a tyrant who was put in power BY your government?

have you seen the prisons of your country full of black people who are there because your government filled their communities with drugs?
have you seen their children?

and yet you tell me that you see no chaos..where do you live beverly hill?

where do you get off on blaming god for being angry? u state that mother teresa is a saint..ask yourself why did teresa go to calcutta?
why did the monks and friars go to peru after the conquistadors?..have you ever seen the wonderful palaces they lived in?

teresa believed that the pope was infallible..and the step between having a religious leader as your god and a political leader like stalin or mao is very narrow indeed

the misery that bad muslims have caused in the world is like a mote of dust when compared with the beam that good non-muslims have caused


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