Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Yusuf |
| 03/21/01 at 16:12:11 |
| slm Does anyone know the authenticity of this hadith? On the authority of Thawbaan (May Allah be pleased with him), the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) said: "If you see the Black Banners coming from Khurasan (current day Afghanistan) go to them immediately, even if you must crawl over ice, because indeed amongst them is the Caliph, Al Mahdi." [Ibn Majah, Al-Hakim, Ahmad] wlm |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/21/01 at 16:27:06 |
| slm yes, this hadith was brought up in a discussion and a few of the brothers were discussing it. Kashif probably remembers more from the discussion then I do. Anyways, isn't it amazing, from Afghanistan? |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| meraj |
| 03/21/01 at 18:49:50 |
| slm, what exactly does it mean by 'black banners coming from khurastan' ??? does that mean that there will be another caliph, and when will this happen? ma'salaam |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Arsalan |
| 03/21/01 at 18:58:25 |
| Black Banners being carried by an Army of the Believers .... coming out to fight the Dajjal. This will happen towards the end of time. The Mahdi, the khalifa of that time, will lead the army. Wassalamu alaikum. P.S. I'm not sure about the authenticity of this hadith, but I've heard it before. |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/21/01 at 19:12:11 |
| slm And do you remember the one about a group that will fight in India near the end of time? Ali Timimi wrote a pretty good response on this. I'll have to look for these again. |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Anwar |
| 03/21/01 at 20:06:59 |
| Aslamualaikum wa rahmatullah It was reported by Abu Hurairah (radhiAllahu anhu) who said, "The Messanger of Allah[saw] promised us the battle of Hind. If I am alive when it transpires, I would offer myself and my money (to its cause). If I were to die, I would be among the best Martyrs and if I were to return (alive) I would (certainly) be (among those who are) freed from the Hell Fire." (Nisaee, 3123) It was reported by Thawban, the Maula(freed captive) of the Prophet[saw], that He [saw] said: "two groups from my Ummah, Allah has saved from the Hell Fire. A group that (will) wage battle against Hind and another (group) who will be with 'Esa the son of Mariam, on both of them be peace." (Nisaee, 778) The above Ahadeeth can be found in An Nisaee's collection on the Sunnan, vol. 6, the chapter on Jihad, section: The battle of Hind (India) |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 03/21/01 at 21:58:12 |
| [slm] What's the general consensus amongst the scholars on the battle against Hind? I heard one opinion that the battle had happened already, and that this was the army led by Muhammad Ibn Qasim, which was known for its justice... So bhaloo I'm taking it Ali Tamimi is of the opinion that this battle is yet to occur? Remember anything else he or anyone else for that matter has said in regards to this? And Allah knows best...[slm] |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/21/01 at 23:13:01 |
| slm [quote] So bhaloo I'm taking it Ali Tamimi is of the opinion that this battle is yet to occur? Remember anything else he or anyone else for that matter has said in regards to this? And Allah knows best...[/quote] Ok, I found the information, no thanks to someone, *cough* where are you Kashif *cough*. :) Conquest of India Prior to the Day of Judgment Ali Al-Timimi At-Tuwaijiri's Ithaf al-Jama'a, Vol. 1, pp. 365-366. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The latest conflict in Kashmir between the mujahideen and India brings to mind the ahadeeth regarding the conquest of India prior to the day of Judgment. Thawban - may Allah be pleased with him - that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said, "Two groups of my umma Allah has protected from the hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group that will be with 'Isa b. Maryam - 'alaihimas- salat was-salam." Reported Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and at-Tabarani. Na'im b. Hammad in al-Fitan reports that Abu Huraira - may Allah be pleased with him - said that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) mentioned India and said, "A group of you will conquer India, Allah will open for them [India] until they come with its kings chained - Allah having forgiven their sins - when they return back [from India], they will find Ibn Maryam in Syria." While Abu Huraira said, "The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) promised us the conquest of India. If I was to come across that I will spend my soul and wealth. If I am killed then I am among the best of martyrs. And if I return then I am Abu Huraira the freed." Reported by Ahmad, an-Nisa'i, and al-Hakim. In another narration reported by Ahmad, Abu Huraira says, "I was told by my khalil, the truthful and believed in, the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that there will be in this umma an expedition sent to Sind and Hind (India) ... ." The rest of the narration is the same but it has the following addition, "... then I will be released from the Hellfire." At-Tuwaijri remarks this addition explains what is meant by "the freed" above. Historical background: Ibn Kathir remarks in al-Bidaya wa n-Nihaya, "The Muslims invaded India during the days of Mu'awiya in the year 44 A.H and [great] events transpired then. And [likewise] the mighty and magnificent King Mahmud b. Subuktikin the ruler of Ghazna invaded the lands of India at the turn of the fifth century. He entered India and killed, took captive, [and] enslaved [many]. He took [muc] booty. He entered as-Sumanat (*) and destroyed the great al-Budda which they worship and he stripped it of its jewlery. He then returned [to Ghazna] safe, [Divinely-]aided, and victorious." * as-Sumanat is a costal city where India's scholars, monks, and the idol al-Budda are found. At-Tuwaijiri remarks that Ibn al-Athir has detailed the campaigns of Mahmud b. Subuktikin in his book al-Kamil fi t-Tarikh. |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Barr |
| 03/24/01 at 01:05:11 |
| Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullah, Akhi Yusuf, [quote] "If you see the Black Banners coming from Khurasan (current day Afghanistan) go to them immediately, even if you must crawl over ice, because indeed amongst them is the Caliph, Al Mahdi." [Ibn Majah, Al-Hakim, Ahmad] [/quote] I asked my colleague who is from the Office of Mufti. He said that the hadith is sahih, but the hadith does not necessarily refer to present day Afghanistan. Black banners refer to the flags that people use during wars. I was told that wars such as those done during the prophet's time, would have flag bearers, who are the ones that give the signal to the army its direction (after receiving directives from the general or such). I don't think this is done in modern warfare, though... but a point to think about. Plus, the Mahdi will be recognised by the believers without the need of any propaganda. Hope this helps :) |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Arsalan |
| 03/24/01 at 02:53:40 |
| [quote]I was told that wars such as those done during the prophet's time, would have flag bearers, who are the ones that give the signal to the army its direction (after receiving directives from the general or such). I don't think this is done in modern warfare, [/quote]There are other ahaadith which mention some of the Major Signs of the Day of Judgment, which also *seem* to be "outdated." For example, there is a hadith which talks about the war towards the end of time, and how the Muslims will be riding horses and using swords. Nobody fights with swords and horses in modern times! BUT the key here is "modern times." We don't know what will happen in the *post-modern-era* (i.e. the future). As Muslims, we should believe in these ahaadith regardless of what we see in the present day technology. For the mind which likes to reason, *perhaps* there will be a change in the natural conditions on earth which will force warfare to take upon the old style. This would also explain the use of flags. There may also be other explanations. But again, they should not be necessary for us to believe in them. Furthermore, as far as I know, the event mentioned in the hadith about Khurasan above has not come to pass yet! If you know of any historical event which resembles the hadith above, please enlighten us. [quote]Plus, the Mahdi will be recognised by the believers without the need of any propaganda.[/quote]What is the evidence for this? |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Kashif |
| 03/24/01 at 08:58:11 |
| Sorry for the delay bhaloo. Kashif Wa Salaam ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thawban said, "The Prophet said: 'Three men will be killed at the place where your treasure is. Each of them will be the son of a Khalifah, and none of them will get hold of the treasure. Then black banners will come out of the east...' If you see him, go and give him your allegiance, even if you have to crawl over ice, because he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.'" This hadith is reported in Sunan Ibn Majah in 'Kitab al-Fitan, Baab Kharuj al-Mahdi' and 'Mustadrak' al-Hakim. Hakim classified it as saheeh on the conditions set by al-Bukhari and Muslim and al-Dhahabi agreed. Ibn Kathir wrote about it in his 'al-Nihaya (al-Fitan wa al-Malahim)' that its isnaad is 'qawii' (strong). al-Albani considers some of the chains as unacceptable, but writes the hadith is correct in meaning without the addition, 'he is the Khalifah of Allah, the Mahdi.' He rates the isnaad of Ibn Majah from 'Alqama from Ibn Mas'ud as hasan which does not have the words, 'khalifa-tullah.' He then goes on to discuss why this addition is not acceptable. ('Silsilah al-Ahadeeth al-Da'eefah wa al-Maudu'a', vol 1, p. 195-198, Hadith #85) And Allah knows best. |
| NS |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Saleema |
| 03/25/01 at 17:19:12 |
| Assalam ualykum, People still use horses in wars. Like in mountains, jeeps wouldn't do so good. and afghanistan has a lot of mountains. (not making an conclusions about any ahadith. just stating two facts, ok?) wassalam |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Moonshine |
| 04/01/01 at 21:07:26 |
| What about this hadith, relates to Afghan city Taloqan? Found it on a Shia(?) site talking about Mahdi, so don't really know what to make of it since I have't seen it mentioned in any Sunni sources. "Good for Al Talakan! Surely, for Allah in it are treasures, not of gold or silver but men who know Allah through truthful knowledge and they will support Al Mahdi at the end of Time." [color=red][url deleted by moderator][/color] |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| jannah |
| 04/01/01 at 21:10:57 |
| slm, Moonshine, do you know who runs that page? They kind of look really shady because they have a "fatwa" on there that muslims should pray towards the southeast ??? and they supposedly show some pictures.. and draw some lines but apparently they don't know much about projection and coordinate systems of the earth because you can't just draw a flat line in non-earth and expect it to be inline with lat/long lines. btw was there any reference to the hadith? |
| Re: Authenticity of this Hadith? |
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| Moonshine |
| 04/02/01 at 07:19:42 |
| slm, You're right it does look shady. I just found it while surfing thats why i questioned that hadith since I've never seen it before in any Sunni source.Theres no narrations given except that it was transmitted via Ali. Good observation :) |
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