Question for the bruthas...

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Question for the bruthas...
se7en
03/11/01 at 13:36:39
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

What do you think about a sister approaching a brother for marriage?

How would you feel if a sister approached you for marriage?
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kashif
03/11/01 at 14:13:24
assalaamu alaikum

Didn't we have this question before?

If the sister herself were to approach the brother, I think it'd show a lack of hayaa.

However, if the sister's walee offered his daughter at her request/indication then that would be far more respectable in my eyes and i don't think that there is any problem with that.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
zubaid
03/11/01 at 15:14:43
as-Salaamu 'Alaykum,
     My opinion, is that it depends on how it is done.  If it is done in an intermediarary way (i.e. - ask someone to ask the brother), then I would say that would be quite different than the sister up and asking the brother herself.  But I think one of the reasons why that wouldn't fly well, is 'cause brothers (in general) have egos.  Again, simply my opinion and observations.

Take care,

Zubaid
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Laboogie
03/11/01 at 16:16:08
as-salamu alakium
 Adding to Se7en's question.  What about if they have beeing seeing each other, like they are intended (anyone familiar with that term); and the sister decide to ask the brother instead of waiting for the brother to come around?
   ** I hope I made myself clear, if not I'll try to explain it in another way, aight.

salams
*** Also Kashif what do you mean by the lack of hayaa?
Re: Question for the bruthas...
mwhaider
03/11/01 at 19:43:43
Quote
What do you think about a sister approaching a brother for marriage?

How would you feel if a sister approached you for marriage?
Unquote

i think its similar as brother approaching a sister.

Remember Hazrat Khadija RA asked our beloved Prophet PBUH thru an intermediary.

also, i read instances where women approached directly Prophet Muhammad PBUH for marriage.

if a sister approached me for marriage, i wud feel flattered :) as she must have seen some good in me.

wassalam
waseem
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/11/01 at 20:42:16
me and se7en have a running bet on this. i don't think any guy could take it.. even if he liked the girl or had some interest in her i think it would turn him off.. psychological ego something.. se7en says there must be at least one guy that could take it
i say yeah the only man that had enough humility for this was ras [saw] :)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
mwhaider
03/11/01 at 20:56:04
Quote
.. psychological ego something.. se7en says there must be at least one guy that could take it
i say yeah the only man that had enough humility for this was ras  
Unquote

Hazrat Muhammad PBUH is wat v can get closest to perfection.
Even for us weak humans, the thing in hand is not that hard...se7en i wud have helped u win the bet with some instance close to it but then i wud have to compromise my privacy.
Jannah there r a variety of ppl in the world with their unique strenghts and weaknesses.

wassalam,
waseem
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/12/01 at 00:47:41
[slm]

Before I say anything ... my apologies to Jannah if this causes her to lose the bet!

To answer the first question, I think there may be cases in which a sister may find it more convenient to use a direct approach (ex. she doesn't have a walee, or she wants to make sure the brother would be even half-interested in the proposal before she goes and talks to her walee, etc).  If there is such a case, I think it's alright for the sister to do that (of course, the conversation should be within the limits of hayaa, i.e. no joking, flirting, etc.  Straight to the point).  Although this should preferrably be done via correspondance (in today's modern world, INTERNET)!

To answer the second question, how I personally would feel if this happened.  

Let me see.  

First, I'd be surprised beyond belief!  What in the world would anyone see in me to be desperate enough to use a direct approach?!?

After I overcome my amazement, assuming she is communicating with me via some sort of correspondance, I'd probably ask her why she didn't come through a walee, or a brother, or an elder sister, or even a friend!!!  If she gives a good enough reason, I'd consider it and pursue it further (if it's worthy).

If she asked me the question face-to-face, in real life, I'd take her email address and tell her that I'd get back to her!  I would be VERY uncomfortable talking about this in person, face to face.  The rest of the procedure will just go as I described in the previous paragraph.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/12/01 at 00:56:22
hmmm
[quote]

...I'd be surprised beyond belief!...

...I'd probably ask her why she didn't come through a walee...  

...If she gives a good enough reason...

...if it's worthy...

... I'd get back to her...  

...I would be VERY uncomfortable... [/quote]

I rest my case ;)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/12/01 at 01:04:37
[slm]

Jannah - sorry, but I disagree with you :)

This has nothing to do with ego.  And this doesn't show that the guy is turned off.  It's all about playing it safe.

The surprise is due to the fact that I don't consider myself good enough to be approached directly.

Asking her why she didn't come through a walee would be to see how much she respects the Islamic injunctions and understands them.  Can you say "pre-screening"???

Good enough reason means - ok, let me give an example of a not-good-enough-reason: "i just wanna be friends for now, and see if things work out between us ... until we can feel comfortable with each other, i don't wanna tell my parents ... and you have to promise me you won't tell yours either."  

About the "if it's worthy bit" ... come on!  Who wants to marry an unworthy candidate?!?  If the sister seems unworthy right from the get go, then what's the point of pursuing things further and keeping false hopes alive in her heart?

I'd get back to her - where is the ego here?  What do you expect?  Should I say, "yes, I do" right there and then???

About the uncomfortable bit, all I gotta say is this:

Men are shy too!!!

Wassalamu alaikum :)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Asim
03/12/01 at 01:14:54
Asslaamu alaikum,

I agree with Arsalan all the way. See guys are often clumsy when it comes to such matters. And considering that these things are not frequent they are often caught unprepared. It does not mean they have an ego of sorts, they are just taking there time to assess the situation :)

To avoid such embarassments, it is best to go with an intermediary. Play it safe :)

So I would say Jannah does lose her bet. There are more than one person!

Wasalaam.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/12/01 at 01:28:35
hmm i still think since perhaps guys aren't used to it they feel at a disadvantage or clumsy as Asim says
therefore the whole thing starts out negatively

but let me refine my statement... i would say that most guys in our times would not be able to take a proposal from a sister like rasulullah [saw] did, in stride and seriously contemplate it and accept it warmly without thinking ill of her motives and actually admiring her for it.

so let's hear the rest of the bro's [honest] opinions for themselves?

se7en i think i'm +2...what do you think :)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/12/01 at 01:37:52
[quote]hmm i still think since perhaps guys aren't used to it they [color=red]feel at a disadvantage[/color] [/quote]Hmm ... I don't know where you're getting this from.

Anyway, let's see some other opinions.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/12/01 at 06:50:23
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

Marriage proposals are like London Buses. You wait ages for one and then two come along all at once!

The old ones are always the best ;-)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/12/01 at 07:23:37
[quote]but let me refine my statement... i would say that most guys in our times would not be able to take a proposal from a sister like rasulullah [saw] did, in stride and seriously contemplate it and accept it warmly without thinking ill of her motives and actually admiring her for it. [/quote]

hmm jannah, if you're comparing guys to rasullalah [saw], well yeah, NO ONE is gonna take anything, be it a proposal or a drink of water, or whatever just like him. He's Rasullalah [saw]!!!!!

We can try though the best we can to act like him, and I know brothers who would be open to it and comfortable with it. You say Arsalan's being "surprised behind belief" and being "uncomfortable" "rests your case"...I don't see how. Sure most would be shocked but then again, that's normal, isn't a woman shocked when a guy proposes to her? It's normal! It doesn't mean that she's not taking it in stride and won't seriously contemplate it or thinks the guy automatically has ill motives.

The same goes for the guy. Men are not monolithic. Yes some won't be able to take it for their own personal reasons, but some will.

And some is more than one jannah, so I think you're about -6 now :)

Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/12/01 at 08:15:08
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]i would say that most guys in our times would not be able to take a proposal from a sister like rasulullah  [saw] did, in stride and seriously contemplate it and accept it warmly without thinking ill of her motives and actually admiring her for it. [/quote]


If this proposal was *directly* from the sister to the brother, then I'd have to agree with the above.

But I mean come on, how many brothers pop the question directly to a sister? And what would a sister's reaction be?


Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/12/01 at 08:39:08
dang i thought this bet was with se7en!! :)

ok true i can't compare guys to rasulullah [saw] but he's our role model right...i don't know why there's so much stigma in a sister asking a brother (and yes i meant of course with intermediaries, not just turn around in class and say 'so...i'm free after jumah...u?')


[quote]
But I mean come on, how many brothers pop the question directly to a sister? And what would a sister's reaction be?
[/quote]

tons! believe it or not

it's only natural to ask if there's interest before you proceed through walee etc right,

ahhh gotta teach my class bbli
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/12/01 at 09:06:46

[quote]But I mean come on, how many brothers pop the question directly to a sister? And what would a sister's reaction be?
[/quote]

yes this actually does happen quite a bit...and I know of vice versa too...it takes a lot of courage on both sides...

just a thought here...i would think that if someone (brother or sister) thought seriously about marriage to someone, they would know enough about the prospect (through whatever halal means) and be on the same wavelength value-wise that they would have some idea at least whether the direct proposal was appropriate or not for that particular person...

but then again, i know some people where it was totally unexpected and thought the proposal was inappropriate but nevertheless still liked the idea of marriage to the person though!...they might have been uncomfortable but that was only temporary...they're very comfortable now...I suppose that's what matters in the end eh?
[slm]
Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/12/01 at 09:28:12
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]But I mean come on, how many brothers pop the question directly to a sister? And what would a sister's reaction be?
[/quote]

[quote]yes this actually does happen quite a bit...and I know of vice versa too...it takes a lot of courage on both sides...[/quote]


Have to say that really does surprise me. I wonder whether this is a US thing or is it the same over here? Anyone?


Re: Question for the bruthas...
meraj
03/12/01 at 11:18:07
slm,

1) i'd probably run and hide behind my mommy :D
2) if i had the guts to talk to her i'd tell her to talk with my mom or sisters

but yeah.. i probably wouldnt be able to handle it myself... but then again, im not even 17 yet, so theres lots of stuff i couldnt handle :)

ma'salaam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
mwhaider
03/12/01 at 14:05:19

[quote]...i don't know why there's so much stigma in a sister asking a brother
[/quote]

I believe tht its a cultural thing too and it has been mistakenly attributed to modern life style.
From where i belong it is not usually thot suitable for a girl to ask a boy, but higher the social status, the common it is.

Also, since girls r thot to b more shy than boys. it might be taken as a surprise when the girl asks a boy.

There is a need for awareness. Like many social dilemma, it shud b addressed. Its a pity how many sis just keep quiet and let the opportunity to live with the person they like slip away.

There r many ppl who do not mind tht but i wud agree many wud do.

I had also been approached by sum1 and i appreciated her courage to do so but didnt proceed cuz of other issues.

i hope tht wud explain a little.

wasslam
Waseem
Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/12/01 at 17:30:05
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

This topic reminded me of the following story taken from:

Disciplining the Soul & Breaking the Two Desires by Imam Al-Ghazali

[hr]


[color=Blue]Ahmad ibn Sa’id al-Abid related that his father had told him the following:

There was once with us at Kufa a young man much given to devotional practices, who used to stay in the Friday mosque and hardly ever leave it. Since he had a fine face and bearing, and a pleasant manner, he was noticed by a beautiful and intelligent woman, who fell deeply in love with him. After having passed a long while in this condition, she stood in the road one day when he was going to the mosque.

“Young man!” she said. “Hear a few words which I would say to you, and then do whatever you will.”

He walked on without speaking to her. Then she stood in the road when he was returning, and said, “Young man! Hear a few words which I would say to you!”

He lowered his head for some time, and told her, “This is a situation which invites suspicion, and I do not like to be suspected.”
“By God”, she told him, “I am not stajding here because of ignorance of your disposition; God forbid that people should see me to do this thing, yet I have been impelled to meet you myself; only a little of such things is considered by people to be too much, and you constant worshippers are like glass bottles which are damaged by the slightest thing. In sum, what I would say is that all my limbs are intent upon you: God, God help me with you!”

The young man went home. He wanted to pray, but he could not concentrate, so he took out a piece of paper instead and wrote a message. He then went outdoors, where the woman was standing in the same place: he threw the message towards her, and went back in. The message ran:

“In the name of God, Most Compassionate and Merciful. You should know, O woman, that when one of God’s servants sins against Him, He deals with him leniently. Should he sin again, He conceals this for him. But should he don its garments. Then God conceives against him such wrath as the very heavens and the earth could not compass, [i]neither the mountains, the trees and the animals:[/i] what man could then withstand such wrath? If what you said was spoken in deceit, then I would remind you of a [i]Day when the sky will become as molten copper, and the mountains as carded wool,[/i] when all nations shall crouch down before the onslaught of the Almighty. I am too weak to reform myself; how, then, may I reform others? However, if what you say was spoken truly, I would direct you to a physician of guidance, who cures festering wounds and burning pains; to wit, God, who is [i]Lord of the Worlds.[/i] So address yourself to Him with sincere entreaties, for I am distracted from you by His words (Exalted is He!): [i]And warn them of the Day of Destruction, when hearts will choke throats, when there will be no friend for the evildoers, neither any intercessor who will be heard. He knows the traitor of the eyes and that which hearts conceal. God judges with verity![/i] How may one escape from this verse?

A few days later, she came and stood in front of him again in the street. When he saw her from afar he wanted to return to his house so as not to see her. But she said,

“Young man! Do not go back, for we shall never meet after today save in the presence of God (Exalted is He!).” She broke into bitter tears, and said, “I ask God, in Whose hand lie the keys of your heart, to ease all kindness of an admonition, which I may take from you, and give me counsel by which I may act.”

I counsel you,” he said, “to protect your soul from your soul, and would remind you of His statement (Exalted is He!): [i]He it is who slays you at night, and knows what you commit by day.[/i]

At this she lowered her head, and cried even more bitterly. When she recovered, she went home and remained there, and occupied herself with continual worship until at last she died of grief.

After her death the young man would weep when he recalled her.

“Why do you weep?” he was asked, “when you kept her away from you?” And he would reply,

“I killed her hope for me at the outset, and through that rejection stored up a treasure with God (Exalted is He!). And then I was ashamed to take back a treasure of this kind.” *


(* The intended meaning is that he had felt unlawful desire for her, and gained such grace in wrestling with it that when he too fell in love with her, he denied himself a legitimate marriage so as not to vitiate (impair) his original virtue)[/color]
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/12/01 at 17:41:29
Subhan Allah!

This is deep!
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/12/01 at 17:58:26
[slm] That's an interesting book, very deep. The stories in that book are remarkable and inspiring tales of real spiritual discipline. Those of you with an ascetic tilt should check it out. BTW how are you guys putting these book excerpts in your posts? Are you scanning them in or something? I tend to be clueless on these matters.

Anyways, Br. Khalid, I had thought that the woman in the story was intent on inviting him to an illicit act. That's the way I always understood it, but I may have been misinterpreting it.

Anyways, back to the discussion...


Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/12/01 at 17:54:13
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]Anyways, Br. Khalid, I had thought that the woman in the story was intent on inviting him to an illicit act. That's the way I always understood it. [/quote]

That may be the case but what reminded me of this story in respect to the subject of this thread was this business of having a "psychological ego"

I thought that was complete baloney until I was reminded of this story.

As for the book excerpts, I'm afraid good ole fashioned typing is my secret! ;-)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/12/01 at 17:56:42

[quote]As for the book excerpts, I'm afraid good ole fashioned typing is my secret! ;-)[/quote]

Whoa man! Are you serious?? Alhamdullilah...
Re: Question for the bruthas...
se7en
03/13/01 at 19:26:42

as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

Br Khalid, that excerpt was *amazing*... I want that book!!!  I need to save up for it though, it's like 40 bucks at Astrolabe :(

Guys, check this out... it's real easy to say that you have no issue with this... but I think - and I could be wrong - that no matter how legitimately a sister asks for you, for the majority of guys there's always going to be this little voice in your mind that goes... there must be something wrong with her.. or she's too forward/pushy/outgoing/lacks hayaa...

I do think there are exceptions to this, though not many.  
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kathy
03/13/01 at 21:47:58
slm
There was one " I let get away "  I wished I had asked.

At the time I was shy and did not want other people to know that I was interested in him -

(the talk can get to be too much, especially if either one says no- or worse when one says yes and the other says no)

Allah swt knows best...
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/14/01 at 02:27:52
[quote]slm
There was one " I let get away "  I wished I had asked.
[/quote]

wlm,

kathy i wouldn't do it either, even if i knew the brother was amazing, there just seems to be too much negative fallout from it, which is really sad b/c what if the brother was clueless about your interest, but if he had known..he might have considered it?

Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kathy
03/14/01 at 09:41:36
slm

Sure- he was clueless. I really respected him- and those that you respect, a person holds even a higher standard of decorum.

When I had announced to my Islamic class that I was getting married, he was visably shocked. He was the teacher.

After class he asked me a million questions and when my husband came to marry me (from out of town) The teacher really grilled him...

Later I found out that he had previously asked about me- would I move back to arabia, my thoughts on various things- but and Allah who Allum- the man who talked with him did not really know me and gave him the wrong answers! As I was a very private person.

Sigh....
Alas- Allah knows Best- he probably wasn't ready for someone by the likes of me!
- or rather I am not sure I was good enough for him! (by Deen)

He did keep in touch with my husband for a while- but then as life happens they lost touch.



Re: Question for the bruthas...
zubaid
03/14/01 at 12:54:56
as-Salaamu 'Alaykum,

[quote]but if he had known..he might have considered it?[/quote]

Jannah, you bring up an interesting point.  I've thought about this but haven't been able to come up with a solid conclusion, so I'll put it out there to see what everybody else things [i]inshaa Allah[/i].  If a brother finds out that a sister likes him, either directly or indirectly whichever one, do you think that in someway the brother is perhaps forced to consider marriage to her (i.e. the idea of it).  And does that maybe evolve into him getting to know more about her and then 'liking' her?  Thus resulting in a potential marriage based on an idea that was placed in the brother's mind rather than something he came up with on his own.

     I'm not saying this wouldn't happen the other way around (boy asking girl).  But just something I was thinking about.  By the way, I'm not saying if this is bad or good, just simply curious.

I dunno.

Take care,

Zubaid K.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
nadeem
03/14/01 at 14:01:10
Assalaam alaykum warahamatullah.

I dont mind a sister aproaching me for marriage..so do email me inshallah!!!!

wassalaam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 16:44:33
[slm]
[quote]If a brother finds out that a sister likes him, either directly or indirectly whichever one, do you think that in someway the brother is perhaps forced to consider marriage to her (i.e. the idea of it).  And does that maybe evolve into him getting to know more about her and then 'liking' her?  Thus resulting in a potential marriage based on an idea that was placed in the brother's mind rather than something he came up with on his own.[/quote]
Zubaid, subhan Allah!  That is an excellent, excellent, EXCELLENT point!

It rings true.  Very true.

One question for Jannah:  why in the world do you HAVE to approach him yourself?  Why not use a brother (if you have one), or an elder sister (if you have one), or your parents, or ANYONE but you!?!
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/14/01 at 17:20:07
[slm]

zubaid that's the whole question here... i think if the idea comes from the sister herself (however it reaches him arsalan, again i never said do it directly) it is still looked at negatively in the beginning (or at least that's what i'd argue) and have seen in practice from a few sisters here.

so intermediaries work very well when they are the "hook-up" person and know both parties.. but for some reason when the proposal is like 'initiated' from the sisters side, she's looked at oddly.. that's all i'm sayin'

Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 17:27:19
Hmm ...

If the proposal is initiated from the sister's side, but it is done through an intermediary, I would have [color=red][i][u]NO PROBLEM[/u][/i][/color] with it!!!

In fact, it would be a blessing for me, I think.  I'd have my work cut out for myself.  Especially if she was a good candidate.

But I can see where you're coming from Jannah.  In some families, it is considered taboo for the girl's side to propose for a guy.  It shouldn't be like that.  It is just not fair for the sister or her family to wait and wait until someone proposes for her.  

Wassalamu alaikum.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/14/01 at 17:31:47

[quote][color=red]  In some families, it is considered taboo for the girl's side to propose for a guy. [/color] It shouldn't be like that.  It is just not fair for the sister or her family to wait and wait until someone proposes for her.  
[/quote]

THANK YOU ! that's what I'm saying.. not only "some families" even but most if not all guys nowadays would look at it like that.

of course not you arsalan, or asim, or abdulbasir or anyone else who posted in this thread OF COURSE !!! :p
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/14/01 at 17:36:25

[quote]THANK YOU ! that's what I'm saying.. not only "some families" even but most if not all guys nowadays would look at it like that.[/quote]Ok.  I got it now!  

[quote]of course not you arsalan, or asim, or abdulbasir or anyone else who posted in this thread OF COURSE !!! :p
[/quote]Thank you!  Thank you!  

Let it be known :)

Wassalamu alaikum.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
muhannad
03/14/01 at 18:20:36
Nadeem:
Constitution law 6
[quote] No marriage ads (goto zawaj.com!), spam, advertisments, web newsletters of organizations, or quick rich schemes unless we get 10% :P [/quote]

lol with a smile....
Has anyone ever tried one of these internet marraige thingymajigs ??
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Al-Basha
03/14/01 at 22:24:53
[slm]
[quote]
lol with a smile....
Has anyone ever tried one of these internet marraige thingymajigs ??[/quote]

Just for the record, the zawaj.com database is coming back insha Allah sometime next week. I just wanted to let you guys know that since I write for the page :)

A lot of people knock down those kind of services, but for some people (new muslimeen for example) thats the only way of getting married.

Wa Allahu A3laam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Noura
03/15/01 at 00:15:37
assalaamu alaikum warhmatullahi wa barakatuh,

if the sister has permission from her wali, she has just as much rt 2 propose as a bro. the rt means she's not lacking in hayaa if she does. it's not overnt that a sister decides 2 propose 2 bro. (4 a # of reasons). when she does, it means she's Serious and the brother should take the prop Seriously!

sr. noura badawi  
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/29/01 at 17:59:56
the sister's post, particularly about how the sis is serious, sort of reminds me that with all this talk of Khadijah RA proposing as a model for us let's not forget that original example.

I think the discussion partly got hijacked by the idea among brothers that sister's side proposing was somehow without careful deliberation or hayaa.

Khadijah RA was very serious and deliberative. And let's keep in mind that throughout all this time this wealthy widow RA was receiving proposals left and right from suitors. She already knew well of Muhammad[saw] character and rep before entrusting her caravan to him. Then she learned about him[saw] more in extensive detail from Mayssarah her servant who accompanied him on the caravan. But then she still sought to learn from others, particularly from her astute cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who was full of praise. And we know how good a judge of character he was.

Then even after all that, she sends her friend Nufaissah as a feeler and brings the issue of marraige to Khadeejah straight up with him[saw]. The Prophet[saw] is more than willing and tells Nufaissah he'd accept it.

Then even after all that, she still sends a message to the Prophet[saw] asking him to meet her. And when he responds, then finally she proposes to him directly.

Now is that serious, deliberate, exhaustive and full of hayaa or what? I think that's the epitome of hayaa!

If a sister of today followed this model, how could any brother question the sister's motives?Are there brothers out there who would still actually have issues with such a direct, sister-initiated proposal?

If there are brothers out there who would, and make an ill judgement of the sister, as perplexing as that would be, perhaps due to cultural brainwashing or machismo, well I might be inclined to feel sorry for you, because you're rejecting a spiritual descendant of Khadeejah RA and being one that sister is a good Muslimah and will have no doubt lots and lots of proposals from other brothers who see that she is full of hayaa and seriousness, not to mention courage...

Before someone starts yelling at me, keep in mind all I'm saying is that it is unfathomable to me that a brother, if approached for marraige in the same way and progressive steps that Khadeejah did to the Prophet[saw], still has an issue with the sister proposing, well then that brother respectfully has issues...

So go ahead keep on twiddling your thumbs in that bizarre macho world of yours...It's all good, and there's no fault on you...besides, the sister who follows the example of Khadeejah RA to the letter was probably way too good for you anyway :)

To each his own...and just a thought and i'm shutting up...:)
[slm]








Re: Question for the bruthas...
alzinjibar
03/15/01 at 14:24:14
Bismillah Rahman Rahim, wa salatuhu wa salam ala'a Rasul Karim.
As salam alaykum

What a blessing it is for a sister to be interested by a bro's stand in din, character, morals, behavior and above all his humbleness
, To the point that she reaches a state where she visualize him as the father of her babies, the shoulder to lean on in times of hardship, the warm hand to wake her up for tahajud, the gentle words to encourage her to goodness,
The partner to grow in a state of hamd, and she's mature to turn that wish and yearning into a reality and thus approach him for a marriage proposal. Personally I’ll listen to her and ask her the reasons she chose me, and run straight to the masjid, for 2 rakat and
To ask The One (swt) who has guided her towards me, and beg Him (swt) to unveil my heart and mind, protect me from the unknown and from myself, protect me from my weakness, and guide me to khayr.  Then i'll try to inquire about the sister, and take it from there.
And above all I’ll keep it to myself no matter what for it's an Ammanah between us two and Allah (Swt).

But I think all of us (brothers) will be surprised especially if she's a total stranger, and back off, and unfortunately many will spread it around, and how many wonderful muslimah's reputation has been tainted if not worst because us guys cant keep our tongues in check.

I guess it all goes down to the approach, a noble man once said if u try to shove a chocolate in a kid’s' throat he'll spit it, but it
You give him the chocolate in bits and pieces; he'll like it and beg for more want.  Here is a known story which happen to a close bro' of mine,
He is a good brother, active in his din, dawah, halaqas, activities, fund raisings, etc. and a wonderful sister, a real pearl (mash'Allah)
, Who was also active in the same way the brother was, mash’ Allah for both of them, and the sister was much interested to the bro,
Because they both share many similarities, were compatible in their respective understanding of din, beliefs, character, and goals in life.
She wanted to approach the brother for marriage, and wanted to have a direct contact with him for that, but because in several instances
In the past, the communities have been blown apart because of marriage issues, where one family will reject another, despite the people
Concerned are very much keen and interested in getting married to each others, but the parents for " cultural reasons ", will refuse, and the lack of Islamic knowledge and the cultural baggage
And these unfortunate situations have created much hatred, namima~ and  ghiba ~ among our communities.
So the sister wanted to go forward to the brother but her best friend advised her to wait, she wanted to talk to someone on that issue,
And she approach a brother to ask him for his advise on the issue without the sister concerned knowledge of the matter,
The brother advised the sister, not to do it, but to change the approach, He being close to that brother in question approached his friend
And in his conversations among other things he informed the brother in a vary subtle way that sis' seems to be interested to a good brother dynamic in his deen( halaqas, deen intensive, family and community oriented, an active asset for his community),
And she "seems" interested in his type of brother and maybe has an interest in him.
If the sisters who have approach that brother directly it would not have worked out, for they were both extremely shy people, in the presence of the opposite gender,
Well the bro thought about it, and come to the realization that there were few sister of her " piety, character, morals, humbleness " in the community. He decided after istikhara to send his own elder sister to the sister to talk to her and with marriage as his goal, and they manage it all among themselves before it went to the " upper level" (parents), thing workout fine al hamdulilah.   The walimas was really a treat for many of us enjoyed the biriany, meshouwi, ras malai and basbusa, alhamdulilah wa shukrullah and May the Mercifull bless their hearts and home with His (swt) Sakinah, and bless those who are coming after them. Amin,  
Re: Question for the bruthas...
se7en
03/15/01 at 14:36:56
[quote] If there are brothers out there who would, and make an ill judgement of the sister, as perplexing as that would be, perhaps due to cultural brainwashing or machismo, well I might be inclined to feel sorry for you, because you're rejecting a spiritual descendant of Khadeejah RA and being one that sister is a good Muslimah and will have no doubt lots and lots of proposals from other brothers who see that she is full of hayaa and seriousness, not to mention courage... [Abdul Basir][/quote]

[quote] What a blessing it is for a sister to be interested by a bro's stand in din, character, morals, behavior and above all his humbleness, To the point that she reaches a state where she visualizes him as the father of her babies, the shoulder to lean on in times of hardship, the warm hand to wake her up for tahajud, the gentle words to encourage her to goodness, The partner to grow in a state of hamd, and she's mature to turn that wish and yearning into a reality and thus approach him for a marriage proposal. Personally I’ll listen to her and ask her the reasons she chose me, and run straight to the masjid, for 2 rakat and To ask The One (swt) who has guided her towards me, and beg Him (swt) to unveil my heart and mind, protect me from the unknown and from myself, protect me from my weakness, and guide me to khayr.  Then I'll try to inquire about the sister, and take it from there.

And above all I’ll keep it to myself no matter what for it's an Ammanah between us two and Allah (Swt). [Al-Zinjibar][/quote]


wow.  

Brothers, you should be taking notes!
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/18/01 at 04:10:58
salaams,
don't mean to intrude but i read the headline..(madina news)..

just two comments:
1) why might the sister approach the brother before sending out a wali?

perhaps it's because she doesn't want to cause a 'big commotion' by alerting her parents w/o first finding out if the person she's considering would be really interested in her...it would be embarrassing for her to inform her parents that she's interested in the guy...but wouldn't be sure what his reaction would be (whether he'd 'approve' of her or not..)..but then on the other hand...perhaps her parents would feel uncomfortable anyways in pursuing a 'the match/proposal' to someone they don't know themselves..but who their daughter has a possible interest in...("um...salaams...umm..my daughter seems to like you, the little that she knows about you..so betta, ap kiya kartaih? ya walid, madha taf'ail?" :P) it makes a very weird situation...what if she liked someone b/c of their char or what she assumed about him...and her parents don't know him..and she didn't want to make a big issue out of it prematurely...so decided to 'sniff' around or something? ;) ok maybe that sounded weird..but..i would imagine, it'd depend on the person (what type of person they are..)...or the sister/bro asking (as if you find them credible, serious or just a weirdo etc?)...although it may or may not seem incredulous at first? but then everyone these days are complaining about how to get connected...and connected to the type of ppl they are really interested in...instead of all these weird passed around 'proposals' the community/or others bring..or ppl that come around ;)

and what if like jannah pointed out earlier..she wanted to 'pursue' it unofficially and personally at first to get their attention? b/c most likely than not if he/she hasn't proposed yet the other person's somewhat interested in them....then you know..it might just be the only safe way at the moment to find out if there is such a possibility and if that person would be interested in pursuing it seriously..and if so..then by all means, i'm sure they'd bring on the walis? well...if we're talking about serious ppl etc?

2. kathy sis...that's so unbelievably sad that the person who answered those qs on your behalf answered them wrongly...but alhamdulillah you are happily married now and maybe this was a better match for you at the end? insha'allah.. :) but...that brings up a verrrrry depressing point...most often than not...and i even heard of a story recently from a friend of mine...where the community or where ppl would get involved and intervene for whatever reasons..(jealousy, competition, whatnot..) and break off possible interest btwn the one looking for proposals and the one interested in proposing..by giving wrong/false answers..or steering the person away to someone else (sometimes to those 'more favored' b/c of personal 'our gang' realtionships etc)...or ignoring a person (not directing them to that person)..or 'gossip' (false gossip/slanderings in most cases) etc etc...and well.. usually finding a spouse is somewhat a community involvement...where other ppl direct ppl to another person etc...or are 'resources' to find out about the particular person etc...however, unfortunately...some cool proposals are blocked that way... :( another friend's story comes to mind as well...so in other words, you're stuck! ;) :P

how do you manage with THAT?

along with the limited resource pool of prospective suitors esp if you want them to have particular qualities and def to be strong/practicing/knowledgeable in the deen etc?

shrug..this topic reminded me of a couple of things..
wa salaams.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kathy
03/18/01 at 16:36:53
[slm]

Humdil Allah, Allah has given me a beautiful and good son, whose fitra is so pure, from my husband.

Yeah, I will never figure out why that man choose to talk about me without knowing or asking about me. I think he just took me as a stereotypical divorced American Muslim revert.

If any advice I could ever give to the brothers about this topic it is that if they choose to represent a woman- even in common conversation- to remember that Allah will hold them accountable for their words.

Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/18/01 at 16:39:41
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]1) why might the sister approach the brother before sending out a wali?

perhaps it's because she doesn't want to cause a 'big commotion' by alerting her parents w/o first finding out if the person she's considering would be really interested in her...it would be embarrassing for her to inform her parents that she's interested in the guy...but wouldn't be sure what his reaction would be (whether he'd 'approve' of her or not..)..[/quote]


Sister is that just another way of saying she fears being rejected if she doesn't find out first?

Just wondering
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kashif
03/18/01 at 17:19:11
[quote]If there are brothers out there who would, and make an ill judgement of the sister, as perplexing as that would be, perhaps due to cultural brainwashing or machismo, well I might be inclined to feel sorry for you, because you're rejecting a spiritual descendant of Khadeejah RA and being one that sister is a good Muslimah and will have no doubt lots and lots of proposals from other brothers who see that she is full of hayaa and seriousness, not to mention courage... [/quote]
First Khadijah was a widow, and we know that there are different rules regarding the consent/selection of a widower as opposed to a virgin. Can that be said of *most* of the cases we hear of?

Second, it assumes that the method used by Khadijah radiallahu anha is still valid despite the fact that it occurred BEFORE the Prophethood of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam, i.e. before Allah sent down rules and regulations governing inter-human relations. So, what i'm asking is does this method become an evidence owing to the fact that it occurred before the revelation of Islam?
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/19/01 at 00:05:10
[slm]

Note: Sorry, but this post has *nothing* to do with the subject of this thread!

Abdul Basir, this is all news to me:

she still sought to learn from others, particularly from her astute uncle Waraqah ibn Nawfal, who was full of praise.

Then even after all that, she still sends a message to the Prophet[saw] asking him to meet her. And when he responds, then finally she proposes to him directly.

Where did you get this from?  Any sources?  

Jazak Allahu Khairan.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
JustMe
03/19/01 at 07:04:38
se7en asks:
How would you feel about a girl approaching you for marriage?

Wow! I'd be mighty flattered.  Buttttt.  I think if I was interested I'd want it to be my idea.  Yes, she can have someone else ask on her behalf but what's the harm in her asking herself-- I'm not sure.  Let her ask.  She has a mind of her own.  It just shows she has a lot of confidence in herself.  But I also believe that its important for the parents to know what's going on!
Re: Question for the bruthas...
AbdulBasir
03/19/01 at 12:22:36
[slm] Oh man, I didn't want to have to post again, I'm trying to prevent becoming a "Geek" here!...

Well jazakallahu khair Br. Kashif, both your concerns are more than valid, and I'm not in a position to comment with any authority but merely wonder...But permit a fool to speculate a little bit. I put the following in big asterisks with the disclaimer that this is just an uneducated reflection!!
**
I'm not so sure the previously married/unmarried is an issue here. The unmarried still has the autonomy of choice, provided the wali is involved.
As sr. Noura's post earlier reminded us, the issue of sister-initiated proposals is ok with the wali's permission. And even though Khadeejah RA was a widow and I think didn't have a wali anymore since her father had died, she still consulted some of her relatives, and we shouldn't forget that after her direct proposal, the two families still met (Abu Talib/Hamzah with her uncle Amr) and went through the formalities(though you could argue that this was just due to the customs of the times). But nevertheless, with Khadeejah RA, the proposal wasn't done just by herself.

Of course you could say that this is not how it is going on these days, but I must stress my original post was not addressing what people are doing these days but rather just reflecting on Khadeejah's RA example, nothing more.

As for the second concern, I cannot answer that. We know that the Prophet[saw] b4 revelation was of the highest morals and protected from anything that was un-Islamic, there is nothing in his early life (as far as I know) prior to revelation that he[saw] was involved in that was outside the norms and spirit of the Shar'iah that was to follow after revelation. Even when he was going to do something that was questionable or forbidden, he was protected from doing that by Allah SWT (like when he was going to go to a social function but kept on falling asleep to prevent him from going).

So it begs the question, that Allah only knows, would arguably the most important personal event in the greatest man's[saw] life prior to revelation be initiated in a way outside the spirit of Islam and the comprehensive law that was
to follow? Moreover, would one of the world's perfect women do anything outside the moral and social code Allah SWT has decreed and would reveal only a decade or so later?

Such a rhetorical questions of course, are just food for thought, and I suppose cannot be used alone for definitive evidence. Other than the virtues of the Khadeejah, as far as I know, we don't have any sayings of the Prophet after revelation which give us an idea about the "islamicity" of her proposal. That is, it is not like the Hilf-ul-Fudul, which was in the spirit of Islam, and the Prophet[saw] after revelation praised it as something he would still join, indicating its validity. But again, we still have this example of Khadeejah RA, whose virtue was unparalleled. And then I wonder, is there any evidence or authoratative text that states the wali permitted, direct, sister-initiated proposal is not allowed? I don't know of any, and I have never heard or read from anyone that there is. I am not aware of any hadiths or practices of the Prophet which address the issue specifically. If it were illegitimate, would not the Prophet[saw] have forbidden it? In the Shariah, silence on an issue in the sunnah generally indicates a permissibility no? If the Prophet[saw] was asked or confronted with an issue that was prohibited according to Islam, he[saw] would always comment on it. In fact,there are reports (if anyone can give the specific source, please do so, because I have only heard this from several articles) in the Seerah that a woman came and proposed to the Prophet[saw] after the time of revelation. He[saw] did not accept, but he[saw] made no statement condemning her or disapproving of her proposal itself and made arrangements to help her get married to someone else. So if we don't accept the Khadeejah RA example, then, provided we accept these reports are authentic, this example might be valid as an evidence. Leave that to the faqihs and Allah SWT.
**

OK, now everyone please forget everything I just said (between the asterisks), because my earlier post was not really commenting on the Shari' evidence for the direct, sister-initiated proposal. All I was saying was this: If a sister acts in the spirit of Khadeejah RA, i.e she goes to all these lengths to find out details from others about the brother, consults with her wali, relatives and other trusted people, then is discreet about it, sending even a feeler to the brother before the actual proposal, etc, then doesn't that demonstrate she is serious about it and also demonstrating hayaa? All I meant to say was that regardless of whether the brother thinks the sister proposing is valid or not, if the sister has done all the aforementioned things, I don't think he has any right to come to the conclusion that she is somehow not serious, or without hayaa. And I personally find it odd why someone would come to such a conclusion. I think we need to be careful about judging what people's intentions are, let's leave that to Allah. We should be careful about rushing to judgements about people without knowing what is in their hearts and minds, and without knowing about all the behind the scenes things that go on. Unfortunately was as Muslims do that a lot.

Again my earlier post was not commenting on what a lot of Muslim/Muslimah's do today, who no doubt may go about proposing without consulting their wali or getting more info etc, I was simply just reflecting on the spirit and mode of Khadeejah"s RA example and how we should try to remember it when talking about the process of proposing marriage. That's all! :)
[quote]Where did you get this from?[/quote]
Br. Arsalan, I was about to ask you for sources about the very same thing!! :) BTW I goofed up and said Waraqah was her RA uncle, of course this is false, Waraqah ibn Nawfal was Khadeejah's cousin. I must have had a temporary brain freeze while writing that. In regards to the both consultation with Waraqah, as well as sending for
the Prophet[saw] to discuss the matter, I have read this in a biography of the Prophet[saw], and I also have heard it in more detail from Jamal Badawi on a talk about Seerah. ** I remember he mentioned even about how at that time Waraqah thought highly of the Prophet and when Khadijah consulted him he had said that if the events of the caravan were true, as Mayssarah had reported, he[Rasullalah[saw]] could very likely be the expected Prophet. (Not to confuse this incident with the one that happened after the first revelation, where Waraqah was again consulted and believed the Prophet's experience to be true and from Allah)
**
I cannot give the exact Arabic sources, that's why I was hoping you'd help me out Br. Arsalan!!  

Please forgive my long-winded rambling and pay no heed to most of what I have said (between the asterisks), for undoubtedly much of it is wrong. I seek Allah's forgiveness if I have made a mistake.

Ugh, I am tired talking about this topic...se7en can we say the net score is 0?
[slm] :)






Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
03/19/01 at 09:43:36

[quote] So, what i'm asking is does this method become an evidence owing to the fact that it occurred before the revelation of Islam?
[/quote]

Is there evidence to the contrary where it is against Islam for a sister to propose through intermediaries? What I'm asking is, is it your opinion or is there something more definite.. ie I wonder why you're so against it?

Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/19/01 at 10:25:11
[slm]

Kashif doesn't have any problem with it if the sister comes through an intermediary.  He only has problems if she proposes to the man directly, and is a virgin ....

right Kashif?
Re: Question for the bruthas...
shadow493
03/19/01 at 16:02:45
i really dont care... marraige is marraige to me!!!! :)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/19/01 at 18:45:12
[quote]

Sister is that just another way of saying she fears being rejected if she doesn't find out first?

[/quote]

salaams akhu khalid,

no..not necess...just that..what's the use of getting into something prematurely with getting the folks excited and abuzzed if it didn't go thru properly, you know? b/c most ppl complain that their parents get annoyed when all the fuss is made without anything resulting from it when it's initiated from the kiddos themselves..y'know? something like that...cause usually i think the parents would rather find someone on their own...they might feel awkward in saying..oh hey..my daughter/son's interested in you (or in your kid)..do you think we can work this out? if it's not arranged by the parents already..? and the kid oh nevermind..lol i don't know if this is making sense...but it't not about rejection really...b/c that can go either way when you receive the formal proposal..the rejection deal isn't the biggie..the prob is when a kid'll get excited and tell his/her folks that they think they like someone..and the rents'll ask well what do you know about them? do they like u? what have you told them etc etc...and i don't know..generally i don't think they're too keen on getting involved from the kid's side if it's not going to go thru?

anyhow...i might explain a lil more later..cause this reminds me of something lol i was told a secret today! ;) ...i'll post up later.

oh but as to the initial topic..it's always alot more "decent" to get an intermediary involved..esp the rents.
out of time.
wa salaams.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
meraj
03/19/01 at 19:35:52
slm,

[quote]i really dont care... marraige is marraige to me!!!! :)[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! [whew]... hahahaha oh man [wipin tears away]... its ok adami... we still love you ;-D

ma'salaam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kashif
03/19/01 at 20:14:37
[quote]Is there evidence to the contrary where it is against Islam for a sister to propose through intermediaries?[/quote]
If the intermediary isn't her walee then yes. You can't make a proposal without a walee.*
[quote]What I'm asking is, is it your opinion or is there something more definite.. ie I wonder why you're so against it? [/quote]
Specifically, i believe that using the example of our mother Khadijah's proposal can't be applicable because it has been superceded by the Prophets command to have a walee.

And I'm so against the issue of not having the walee involved because the result can often be disastrous. Lets say the sister is interested, and lets say the brother is interested.* so what happens? They start exchanging e-mails. They start making phonecalls. And then? her walee says no.

This isn't the case always, but too often it is the case. What happens then? You have a brother and a sister who are emotionally connected yet can't marry.

If you give shaitan an inch, he'll take a mile.

Kashif
Wa Salaam

*I'm talking about your average Muslimah: unmarried, coming from a Muslim family.
NS
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/19/01 at 20:35:40
akh kashif,
not to cause controversy:
the above wali condition only applies to nonhanafis, however a wali is always recommended....and the nonrecognition of female intermediatries..would be like...a shafi thing..etc..where women are totally not considered as being 'independent' or able to excute things etc..

Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/19/01 at 20:35:37
Breeze, what do you mean?

Are you saying that according to the Hanafis, it's ok for any Muslimah (whether virgin or not) to propose to someone without a walee??
Re: Question for the bruthas...
bhaloo
03/19/01 at 20:39:40
slm

Arsalan, Pacific Breeze is correct.  This discussion had come up on another discussion board in the past and PB showed the proof from Al-Hedeya (I think).  The other 3 schools hold that the marriage is batil (invalid) without the permission of a wali.  One famous scholar (I'm not sure I'm allowed to say his name in this matter), refused to marry a couple because he said the majority of the schools hold that its invalid, even though the girl said they follow the hanafi position.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/19/01 at 20:52:31
a person who does not follow a hanafi madhab, then ofcourse it wouldn't apply or be recognized by them..just as for the shafis...they MUST make their wudu everytime they touch a person from the opposite sex (if i remem it was the shafis lol)..while for instance, there's no need for a hanafi to do so...
so...in regards to that 'shaykh' you're referring to bro bear, ofcourse it wouldn't be recognized since it's a different madhab ruling.
ma mishkilah. :)

and yes, akh arsalan, it is. according to hanafi, a woman regardless whether she's a virgin or not, may propose directly and arrange her own marriage as long as she fulfills the conditions (be sane, be of an adult, makes a wise choice, and chooses someone from the same rank..if not an equal status, then it's disqualified and her wali can interject) as hanafi says a woman is allowed to dispense of her property etc..and conduct her affairs..and as marriage affects HER..she may be directly involved...
and yup, you can check the Hedayah (a hanafi fiqh book). :)
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
03/19/01 at 20:58:09
Man!  I learn something new every day!  I thought the ruling from the Hanafis was only for the divorcee/widow.

Subhan Allah!  I wonder what was his reasoning for this though.  If anyone knows, please put it here.

Jazaak Allaahu Khairan.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
se7en
03/19/01 at 21:15:45
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

I think that we live in a time and place where people often times shop for fatawa that give them a license to commit whatever actions they want to commit.  And I think this is the reason people are very wary of saying it is permissable to seek marriage without the consent of the woman's wali.

I doubt that the other madhahib require the consent of the wali out of some assumption of deficiency on the part of the woman... that she is somehow unfit to make decisions for herself.  I think the other three madhahib require this because they acknowledge that often times young people are not objective when they are emotionally involved with someone.  The illah however has to do with a specific hadeeth in which Rasulullah [saw] called a marriage invalid three times when he heard that there was no consent on the part of the woman's wali.  From what I remember, the Hanafi madhhab considers this text weak.  (InshaAllah if you're interested, I can dig up the notes about this matter and write more on this.)

I know of a case of a couple who married without the consent of their parents.  The imam in their community refused to marry them, because he knew their situation and the stance of the parents.  The couple then went in search of a "hanafi imam" who would marry them... they did indeed get married, in fact they filmed the ceremony and the woman's mother fainted when she saw the film.  The couple is now divorced.  

This is just one case of what can happen if a couple does not seriously take into consideration the family's stance on the marriage.  This shopping for fatawa can be seen in any number of issues but I think it's particularly dangerous in this one.. because it's giving young, emotionally involved people, who often times don't see how blind they really are to the reality of things (and the characterestics of their potential spouse), the license to do things against the will of those who are older, wiser, and more objective than they are..

And I ain't no auntie.  I'm not saying this because I think young people are stupid or foolish when it comes to notions of love or marriage.  I'm saying this after seeing way too many people my own age fall victim to this kind of emotional attachment and blindness.

Choosing your spouse is one of the biggest decisions in your entire life.  You gotta have perspective, think about things.  I would not only talk to my parents about it, but those I trust that are older and wiser than I am.  That are not emotionally involved in the situation and can give me the low down objectively and with no coloring of weaknesses or faults of my potential spouse.  It's one of the most important decisions of your life... you don't want to mess it up.

Just something to think about.

wAllahu 'alam

wasalaam.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/19/01 at 22:24:09
Hanafi takes it as a normal biz transaction..and something that affects herself and is merely considered as another thing that she can do on her own..

[u]Hedayah:[/u] pg.34

[i]An adult female may engage in the contract without her guardian's consent.[/i]-A woman who is an adult, and of sound mind, may be married by virtue of her own consent, although the contract may not have been made or acceded to by her guardians; and this, whether she be a virgin or a siyeeba.-This is the opinion of Haneefa and Aboo Yoosaf, as appears in the Zahir-Rawayet.-It is recorded, from Aboo Yoosaf, that her marriage cannot be contracted except through her guardian. Mohammed holds that the marriage may be contracted, but yet its validiy is suspended upon the guardian's consent: on the other hand, Malik and Shafei assert that a woman can by no means contract herself in marriage to a man in any circumstance, whether with or without the consent of her guardians:-neither is she competent to contract her daughter or her slave, nor to act as a matrimonial agent for anyone, so as to enter into a contract of marriage on behalf of her consistuent; because the end proposed in marriage, is the aquisition of those benefits which it produces such as procreation, and so forth; and if the performance of this contract were in any respect committed to women, its end might be defeated, they being of weak reason, and open to flattery and deceit.-Mohammad argues that this is apprehension is done away by the permission of the guardian being made a requisite condition.-The reasoning upon which the Zahir-Rawayet proceeds in this case is that, in marrying the woman has performed an act affecting, herself only, and to this she is fully competent, as being sane and adult, and capable of distinguishing good from evil, whence it is that she is by law capacitated to act for herself in all matters of property and likewise to choose a husband; neither does a woman require her guardian to match her for any other reason than is she may, by that means, avoid the imputation which might be thrown upon her modesty if she were to perform this herself; for all which reasons a woman contracting herself in marriage is valid, independent of her guardian, although it should be unequal match; but yet, in the latter case, the guardian is at liberty to dissolve the marriage.

[i]Unless the match be unequal.[/i]-It is recorded as an opinion of Haneefa and Aboo Yoosaf, that the marriage is illegal if there be an inequality between the parties,-It is also recorded that Mohammed afterwards adopted the sentiments of the two elders upon this point, and agreed with them, that the marriage here treated of is lawful, and that its validity is suspended upon the approbation of the guardian.

etc....
Re: Question for the bruthas...
PacificBreeze
03/20/01 at 01:15:45
[quote]as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

I think that we live in a time and place where people often times shop for fatawa that give them a license to commit whatever actions they want to commit.[/quote]

umm..yeah that can go with any issue..you shouldn't just do something to get away with something..but this depends on a persons intention..so we can't put someone down..or put down a madhab etc..

[quote]I doubt that the other madhahib require the consent of the wali out of some assumption of deficiency on the part of the woman... that she is somehow unfit to make decisions for herself.  I think the other three madhahib require this because they acknowledge that often times young people are not objective when they are emotionally involved with someone.  The illah however has to do with a specific hadeeth in which Rasulullah  called a marriage invalid three times when he heard that there was no consent on the part of the woman's wali.  From what I remember, the Hanafi madhhab considers this text weak.  (InshaAllah if you're interested, I can dig up the notes about this matter and write more on this.)[/quote]

umm..there is this one book that actually does say that shafi etc..thinks lesser of women's capability to perform stuff, raising the number of women witnesses etc..but anyhow...this shouldn't be an issue..and exactly, Abu Hanifah has valid proofs for such a stance, and was the first to establish a strict sys of varifying authentic hadiths etc that can be used for rulings etc..and holds fast to the equality of both being entitled to what they earn etc...so i dont' think it's fair to discount another madhab's opinion..to whoever one follows..and one must be tolerable as long as it's one of them...

[quote]I know of a case of a couple who married without the consent of their parents.  The imam in their community refused to marry them, because he knew their situation and the stance of the parents.  The couple then went in search of a "hanafi imam" who would marry them... they did indeed get married, in fact they filmed the ceremony and the woman's mother fainted when she saw the film.  The couple is now divorced.[/quote] well that's their awful experience..what were the motives for getting married? were they of equal status? why were the families not agreeable upon their alliance? and just to twist it some more..ppl who have been backedup by their walis, have also resulted in divorce...this example doesn't bring up anything..
 
if two ppl like each other..and if they've committed sin etc it's islamically recommended for them to marry etc...so i mean they were doing something halal by marrying each other...but ofcourse this isn't used as an excuse/justification to just go behind ur parents backs to get married...and another twist, some parents or families deny a marital alliance based on superficial reasons..not of the same race, or whatever etc..

[quote]This is just one case of what can happen if a couple does not seriously take into consideration the family's stance on the marriage.  This shopping for fatawa can be seen in any number of issues but I think it's particularly dangerous in this one.. because it's giving young, emotionally involved people, who often times don't see how blind they really are to the reality of things (and the characterestics of their potential spouse), the license to do things against the will of those who are older, wiser, and more objective than they are..[/quote]
well some say you can if it's easier on you or if it's something you really believe in...for instance..if you eat shrimps etc.. makhruh for hanafis but for the other madhabs perfectly halal..if you want to eat fish when going out..and atleast one of the madhabis are ok with it, then so be it..and everyone can change the madhab the follow etc..but i know what you're saying..that one shouldnt' use it to justify those 'love romantic' marriages that aren't approved of...and if you scrutinize the hanafi position, you'd see it doesn't reject that..

[quote]this kind of emotional attachment and blindness.[/quote] yeah neither does the hanafi verdict (what's found in the bk).

just wanted to balance it some. walis are always there for you to verify and to totally scrutinize that potential person..so ofcourse it's wiser..yet at the same time..there's the hanafi position with it's own conditions...it just depends on who are the ppl involved, what's the situation re marriage, if someone's against it what are the reasons...are the valid etc..and all that... :)
ws

a sidenote:
1) importance of walis have already been stressed. always out there to protect you, etc. esp from deceit, from being taken advantage of etc...
2) islamically a big sin to estrange your relationship with the family..to cut it off etc...nor is it worth it and cause mega probs in the future..
3) there has to be a good reason why the family rejects a person..if not, then you could get others involved to vouch for the person..or have sabr or get more reward for agreeing with the one your parents like....as family members do have a say etc...remem umar rad's son's wife? he didn't like her manners or something so told his son to divorce her? i think it was him if i remem correctly...or be absolutely clear with your folks and let them know of what sort of person you're interested in so they could go hunt 'em down, absolutely having your wants in mind! ;)

Re: Question for the bruthas...
Kashif
03/20/01 at 08:01:32
After citing the following three hadith:

"There is no marriage without a wali" [Sahih - Ahmad & others]

"If any woman marries herself without the permission of her wali, then her marriage is void, then her marriage is void, then her marriage is void." [Sahih - Ahmad & others]

"There is no marriage but with a wali. And the ruler is the wali for the one who does not have a wali."

J. Zarabozo writes under the heading 'The hanafi view that an adult woman may wed without a wali':
The hadith above demonstrate that the marriage performed without the wali is void. However, the Hanafis say that such is not a requirement. And they even have an argument from Aisha herself the one who narrated the hadith above saying that the marriage is not valid. The Hanafis say, "Aisha married the daughter of her brother, Hafsa bint Abdul-Rahman, while Abdul-Rahman was gone to Sham. When Abdul-Rahman returned he was upset but he did not wish to undo what Aisha had sone so he left his daughter with her groom, al-Mundhir ibn al-Zubair."

The other scholars responded to their argumenp. It seems from other narrations that Aisha simply set up the arrangement but did not actually perform the marriage under her approval. And she even said that, "women cannot perform marriages." There it is clear that she actually did not contradict what she narrated fomthe Prophet.

[p.119, The Fiqh of the Family, Marriage & Divorce]
NS
Re: Question for the bruthas...
BrKhalid
03/20/01 at 08:52:11
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

I think its safe to say there is a difference of opinion between the scholars on this subject.
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Saleema
03/27/01 at 20:21:46
Assalam ualykum,

I don't think that anyone on this board is qualified to comment on fiqhi matters to such a lenght.

This could lead to madhab bashing also so can we all please stop right here? Or at least leave the madhabs out of this?

You all have made some good points but you all are also dealing with some pretty heavy scholarly matters so please watch what you say, and please be careful about discrediting a ruling by any madhab unless you are a specialist in fiqhi matters.

I don't think quoting from books saying that such and such a ruling isn't good enough either sometimes. We may give that as a proof but most of us aren't really able to say anthing beyond that and that's sort of begging the question.

We have equally respected scholars on both sides arguing for different things. We are treading on a grey area here I think. It's all right to debate but we should recognize our boundaries.

I hope no one will take any offense at what I have said.

Wassalam
Re: Question for the bruthas...
Arsalan
04/03/01 at 02:25:22
test
Re: Question for the bruthas...
jannah
04/03/01 at 02:34:13
cool this is like an underground discussion in the madina :)


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