strange goings on

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strange goings on
muhannad
04/12/01 at 18:53:06
I just spotted something for the first time about 2 mins ago (it took me 2 mins to work out which forum its supposed to be posted on)

[slm]

There is no Hamza in this word (it is hamza al-wasl).  Wierd dudes, what an x-file ....

the truth is out there ....

Re: strange goings on
jannah
04/12/01 at 22:44:42
in the assalaam alaikum?
Re: strange goings on
Saleema
04/13/01 at 13:37:08
Assalam ualykum,

What's wrong? I don't get it? What does a Salam ualykum have to do with Hamza? Who's Hamza???

wassalam
Re: strange goings on
se7en
04/13/01 at 14:47:27
saleema, hamza is the name of the little thingie on top of the alif...

[img]http://www.geckil.com/~harvest/arabic/trans-table.jpg[/img]

what's wierd about this chart is that there is no Daad...

Re: strange goings on
jannah
04/13/01 at 14:50:43
that is not the transliteration chart we are using.. don't confused ppls!!!!
Re: strange goings on
se7en
04/13/01 at 14:53:59
the transliteration chart we're using doesn't label what the "hamza" is...
Re: strange goings on
MuslimaKanadiyya
04/13/01 at 19:36:03
assalam 'alaikum,

You're right!  It's written so small that I didn't notice it until now.  I don't know much about computers, but is it possible for anyone to take the hamza off the alif?

wassalam
Re: strange goings on
Saleema
04/13/01 at 22:38:18
Assalam ualykum,

ohhhhhhh...... I get it now. :) (go figure)

I thought you *did* put the hamza on the alif. I know i learned to write alif like that in school in pakistan. maybe this is used in only persian and urdu? Or am i still not getting it???

wassalam
Re: strange goings on
muhannad
04/14/01 at 07:32:17
[quote]in the assalaam alaikum? [/quote]
yep & in wa alaykum as-salam too

[quote]What's wrong? I don't get it? What does a Salam ualykum have to do with Hamza? Who's Hamza[/quote]
In Arabic alif is not a consonant but rather a vowel e.g Islaam (after the laam is an alif for elongation)
it is actually the hamza that gives the "a" sound in Arabic.  It is a bit of a strange bugger in that it usually only comes with another letter e.g. sitting on an alif or yaa.

in short the alif and laam (which means "the") does not contain hamza.  this is why the alif is ignored sometimes e.g. fil-bayt "in the house"

p.s. to confuse matters even more there are 2 types of hamza - wasl & qat'

I hope that is as clear as mud saleema !
Re: strange goings on
Saleema
04/15/01 at 01:42:00
I hope that is as clear as mud saleema !


Asalam ualykum,

yes, clear as mud!  :)

wassalam
Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/15/01 at 16:24:27
[slm]
[quote]to confuse matters even more there are 2 types of hamza - wasl & qat'[/quote]Hmmm ... what is the difference between hamzatul wasl and hamzatul qat'???
Re: strange goings on
AbdulBasir
04/16/01 at 08:20:58
[quote]what is the difference between hamzatul wasl and hamzatul qat'???[/quote]
[slm]...I'll attempt to answer, attempt being the key word! Purists will cringe at this attempt i'm sure :)

ok, for simplicity let's call the hamzatul qat' (also called fasl) your everyday hamzah that we all know and love. It's the one with the usual sign on an alif, ya know the one that looks like a backwards 2? Well this hamzah they like to call disjunctive. Cuz it like seperates letters before and after it when you say it. And you always pronounce it. When you see it in the beginning of word, you'll pronounce it. And say you see it later in a phrase. That's when it really shows off, and seperates with pronunciation...i.e [i]fii 'adnal-ardhi[/i] There it is over the alif of [i]adnal[/i] and is pronounced, so you don't say [i]fiiadnal[/i]

Now the hamzatul wasl...ugh...Now this guy is a mischievous character...sits there over the alif like the qat', but really sneaky cuz he changes the pronunciation depending on other letters sometimes. He isn't a backward 2 but rather a little saad on the alif. Very complex fellow, this hamzatul wasl...

Aright, in short, this hamzatul wasl is conjunctive, and therefore unlike the qat, it is dropped in connected speech.

don't read the next paragraph, instead ***check out anonymous posting for the real deal on hamzatul wasl, more correct and much clearer!***

When you have at the beginning of a noun that is definite like [i]'alhamdulillah[/i], you pronounce it with a fatha sound...When you have it at the beginning of a verb with either a kasra or fatha on the [i]third letter[/i] you pronounce the hamzah now with kasra sound...i.e [i]idhab[/i] instead of [i]adhab[/i] because the fatha was over the [i]haa[/i]...Ok, now say you have a dhamma over the third letter, and the word is a command for example, then you pronounce the hamzah with a dhammah sound...like in [i]udkhuluu[/i]...If you see it in the middle of the phrase as you are reading, just ignore him and don't pronounce...

This is too complicated for someone unqualified like me to explain, so I'll stop there before the defenders and masters of the Arabic language cringe any further. You guys please explain. All I can say really with any certainty is that one is conjunctive and the other disjunctive. :)

And Allah knows best...
[slm]

Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/15/01 at 19:27:46
[slm]

Oh, I get it.

So the [slm] currently has a hamzatul qat' (aka hamzatul fasl) on it, whereas it *should* have a hamzatul wasl ... right?
Re: strange goings on
jannah
04/15/01 at 19:45:06
or no hamza at all?
Re: strange goings on
jannah
04/15/01 at 19:57:04
I asked my dad and we found an arabic letter. He thinks it may be a convention that when al is an article there is no hamza put on it.

I'll try to change it but ftp isn't working still :(

[wlm]
Re: strange goings on
meraj
04/15/01 at 21:45:46
[slm]

hmmm... transparency needs to be set :)
hamzah al-wasl
Anonymous
04/16/01 at 07:22:23
Hamzah al-wasl is only found at the beginning of some words, but
never in the middle.  There is a rule in Arabic that you can only start with a
harakah (or vowel), never a sukoon, and some words have a sukoon or shaddah as the
first letter (the shaddah is the symbol that looks like a flying "w" over some
letters-meaning there are actually two letters, the first being a sukoon). If
you look at all words starting with a hamzatul-wasl you will find in every case
the letter immediately following the hamzah al-wasl has a sukoon.   The
hamzatul-wasl then is there in case a reader would like to start reading with this
word, and it then gets a harakah, or vowel.  The rules are like previously stated
for which harakah (or vowel) to start the hmazah with.  If it is before lam
ta3reef, and you are starting the word, you start with a fath.  If it is before a
noun, you start with a kasrah.  If it is before a verb and the third letter of
the verb (you count hamzah al-wasl as the first letter) is a fath or kasrah,
you start the hamzah wasl with a kasrah. If the third letter of the verb is a
fixed dhammah, then you start with a dhammah.  There are some cases in the Qur'an
where the third letter of the verb is a presented dhammah, in these cases, you
start with a kasrah.  If you are reading in a continuous manner and you come to
a word that starts with a hamzah al-wasl, you ignore it, and proceed right to
the next letter (which as stated previously has a sukoon).
wasl (with a saad), means link or connect.
Did I confuse everyone?
Re: strange goings on
Mona
04/16/01 at 08:22:19
Assalamu alaikum,

[quote]Did I confuse everyone? [/quote]
Yes!!! And I speak arabic and have studied qawaa3id through out grade school!!

I think the rules of pronunciations have exceptions.  It has been said ..

[quote].. If it is before a verb and the third letter of the verb (you count hamzah al-wasl as the first letter) is a fath or kasrah, you start the hamzah wasl with a kasrah ...[/quote]

How about 'ijlis [sit] vs ajlisu [I sit] or 'ith-hab [go] vs ath-habu [I go], etc? In both instances, the 3rd letter has a fat-ha [or kasrah], yet the alif [hamza qat3] is prounouced with kasra ['i sound] in the first case, but with a fat-ha ['a sound] in the 2nd case. Explain that! :-)

My easy and quick test to judge whether there is  hamza qat3 on the alif, is to add a letter [baa'. laam, kaaff] before it, if it is at the beginning of the word.  Example, Islam starts with an alif that has a hamza sound.  If you preceed it with baa', it becomes bi-islam and the hamza is still pronouced ---> hamza qat3.  Al-islam on the other hand, starts with alif also with a hamza sound [if this is a stand alone word], but put a baa' infornt of it, it is now pronouced as bil-islam, without a hamza sound ---> hamza al-wasl.  Note the middle hamza qat3 is still pronounced.

Of course I could be totally wrong, as it has been a while since I studied Arabic grammar!!  Which makes me think, maybe there should be a folder for this in our Madina.

For Arabs on here who know a little bit of grammar, when I read abdul-basir's and muhannad's comments on sukoon, fat-ha etc, I remembered some joke (which might have actually happenned) in regards to studying arabic grammar.  A student had to do word placement (i3raab);  s/he was given a word (verb) that had a 'sukoon' at the end, and proceede with the answer -without thinking it through obviously: "fi3l amr majzoom wa 3alaamat jazmhi al-jazmah"!! :D  

wassalam
Re: strange goings on
muhannad
04/16/01 at 16:56:00
I agree with Mona the anonymous posting is not entirely clear ( like mud eh ? cf. Saleema).  the arabic part below needs Internet explorer 5.

I think an easy way to understand this is as follows:

All nouns, verbs and particles (huroof) have hamza al-qat' except the following categories (nb. these are generally correct !):

1) Command tense of 3 letter verbs
2) Past tense, command tense and masdar of 5 letter verbs
3) past tense, command tense and masdar of 6 letter verbs
4) in alif wa laam of ta'reef (as in the example we began with !)
5) in the following 9 nouns:
ÇÓã æ ÇÈä æ ÇÓÊ æ ÇËäÇä æ ÇËäÊÇä æ ÇãÑÄ æ ÇãÑÃÉ æ Çíãä

I was taught like Mona that an easy way to work out which one it should be is to stick a faa or waw before the word and see if it sounds right - this assumes that you know what sounds right and what doesn't, lol.

[quote]A student had to do word placement (i'raab)[/quote]  Ugh, I hated and still hate it !!

ps. i'll share something i read today with you guys.  the word ibn (son) in Arabic was originally banawun - the waw has been dropped (check your sarf books).
Èäæ
for those who are learning arabic you can impress your arabic teachers with it!



Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/16/01 at 17:34:52
[slm]

Muhannad, I'm using Explorer 5 and I see garbage where the Arabic part is supposed to be.
Re: strange goings on
muhannad
04/16/01 at 18:34:51
try going to view, encoding and selecting arabic from there.

If that doesn't work then... ?!
Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/16/01 at 20:39:38
that worked!

Jazak Allahu Khairan.
Re: strange goings on
Anonymous
04/16/01 at 22:57:30
Assalaam alaikum,
The difference between ithab (command form of "go" and athab (I go) is the
first is a hamzah wasl (the alif with the little saad on top), the second is hamzah
qat3a ( a written hamzah over the alif, in this case). The same holds true for
ijlis and ajlis.  The first (ijils) is written with a hamzah wasl and is a
command, the second (ajlis)is written with a hamzah qat3a.   Hamzah qat3a is
pronounced with the harakah or vowel that is written over the hamzah, hamzah al-wasl
has no vowel written over it, therefore we need to determine the harakah that
we will use when starting the word with it.
Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/16/01 at 23:26:20
[quote]
How about 'ijlis  vs ajlisu [I sit] or 'ith-hab  vs ath-habu [I go], etc? In both instances, the 3rd letter has a fat-ha [or kasrah], yet the alif [hamza qat3] is prounouced with kasra ['i sound] in the first case, but with a fat-ha ['a sound] in the 2nd case. Explain that! :-)[/quote]Sr. Mona, if I may try this ... :)

'ijlis is an imperative, or a command.  So is 'ith-hab.

ajlis and adh-hab are not imperatives, they are conjugated verbs.  

The hamzatul wasl only appears on imperative verbs, i.e. the verbs that carry a command.  The other forms of verbs, if they begin with an alif, contain hamzatul qat3 as Anonymous has said.  

The rule of following the third letter's harakah only applies for hamzatul wasl, not for hamzatul qat3, of course.  Hamzatul qat3 has its own rules!

Btw, one thing which was probably not mentioned in this thread about hamzatul wasl:

The FIRST thing that you look at, in order to decide whether the hamzatul wasl is pronounced as a fathah, kasrah or dhammah, is whether the SECOND letter is a 'laam' or not.  If it is a 'laam', then the hamzatul wasl ALWAYS becomes a FATHAH (unless it's being joined with the previous word of course, in which case the alif is skipped completely, but we're not talking about that).  

IF the second letter is NOT a 'laam', then you need to look at the THIRD letter to decide what the hamzatul wasl will be pronounced as.  

As it was said before, if the third letter carries a fathah or kasrah, the hamzatul wasl becomes a kasrah invariably.  If the third letter carries a dhammah, the hamzatul wasl becomes a dhammah invariably.

I don't know about you, but to me, this stuff is fascinating!  

Wassalaamu alaikum.

Arsalan
Re: strange goings on
Anonymous
04/17/01 at 09:07:29
Assalaam alaikum,
I wasn't going to post anymore about this, but thought I would just add a few
more bits.  The information on the parts of speech that may begin with hamazah
al-wasl posted by brother Muhannad is correct. As stated hamzah al-wasl can
occur in three letter, five letter, and six letter command forms, and in five and
six letter past tense forms.  Hamzat al-wasl never occurs in the present tense
verb, nor in a four letter verb (disregarding any added letters that are not
part of the verb).  Going back to summarize though, we only look at the third
letter's harakah to determine how we start with hamzah al-wasl in a verb.  When
beginning a noun (ism) that has a hamzah wasl as the first letter, it always
starts with a kasrah.  Hamzah al-wasl occurs in masdar (regular nouns) and in
irregular nouns (and these are the words that brother Muhannad posted such as ibn,
imra'ah, ism etc.,).  Hamzal al-wasl before a laam ta3reef always starts with a
fath, but not all laam saakinah after hamzah al-wasl are of ta3reef.  There are
occurences of laam saakinah after hamzat al-wasl in a verb, and in that case,
the harakah of the third letter comes into play in determining the harakah on
the hamzal al-wasl when starting the word. An example of this is (I really
dislike transliteration when referring to the Qur'an) in the 7th word of ayaah 13 of
surah 'Aali 3imraan: ÇáÊÞÊÇ.  This is a past tense 5 letter verb.  We disregard
the long alif at the end because that is a noun added on, not part of the verb.  
If we want to begin this word, we look at the harakah of the third letter,
which is ÊÇÁ.  It has a fath on it, so we begin this word with a kasrah on the
hamzah al-wasl.  
Wa assalaam alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuhu.
Re: strange goings on
Arsalan
04/17/01 at 09:11:35
[slm]

How do you guys write Arabic words in your posts?
Re: strange goings on
bhaloo
04/17/01 at 09:49:33
slm

I think they are using Arabic windows? ???
Re: strange goings on
muhannad
04/17/01 at 12:20:42
[quote]How do you guys write Arabic words in your posts? [/quote]

you need to be using on of the following:

Arabic windows 98 (in enabled - unless you want all the menus in Arabic !)
Arabic windows ME
Windows 2000 (comes with Arabic support built in, just select the option during installation)

There is also a program (notepad type) which lets you type in Arabic.  Its downloadable free off the net.  Personally, I haven't really tried it.

ps. I think we have exhausted the topic of hamza !



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