Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Rivers of Wine |
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| eleanor |
| 04/18/01 at 14:06:00 |
| slm Why do you think there'll be rivers of wine in paradise? Do you think in Paradise it'll have pleasant and positive effects to drink wine? Or do you think we're not supposed to drink the wine in Paradise? Or is this just a metaphor? Could it be used to get people who like to drink alcohol to convert to Islam..you can't drink it now, but in Paradise you can swim in it? These are just random thoughts of mine. I'd be interested to know yours.. wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| destined |
| 04/18/01 at 15:02:38 |
| [slm] I just attended a dars on Surah Al-Waqi'ah [#56]. And in verse # 18 and 19 it talks about the people of heaven and the wine of heaven. 56:18 With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: 56:19 No after-ache will they receive there from, nor will they suffer intoxication: Thus different Mufassirs (commentors) have stated that the wine of the hereafter isn't like the wine of this life. The wine of this life has certain qualities that the wine of the after life doesn't.. The wine of this life... #1 it intoxicates you #2 it induces vomiting #3 it gives you headaches The wine of heaven is lawful for us to drink it doesn't have the ill effects of the alcohol of this world. It doesn't even resemble the wine of this life in color, odor, or taste. It will not be bitter in taste in fact it will be sweet. It has been said that it will be light in color as well (it will be quite beautiful just to look at), not the sorted colors you see of today's alcohol. Allahu A3lam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Arsalan |
| 04/18/01 at 16:39:41 |
| [slm] As an addendum to what destined said, let me add my 2 cents on this. Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala paints a beautiful picture of Paradise in front of us in the Qur'an (and through the ahaadith of the Prophet - pbuh). It is our aqeedah that we believe everything stated in the Qur'an to be true *literally*. This means that if the Qur'an states there will be rivers of wine in Jannah, then we have to believe in it. The "how"s is something that we cannot speculate about, because it's something Unseen, and does not resemble anything of this world. The whole point of Heaven is this: It's a place of the ultimate pleasure! Whatever it is that pleases a human soul will be there in Heaven. Heaven, or Paradise, is equivalent to bliss. Physical pleasures, psychological pleasures, or any other type of pleasure - you name it and it'll be there. The biggest pleasure of all, of course, is to be in the company of Allah (swt) and to be able to see His 'wajh' [face]. Subhan Allah! Wine, as we all know, is something that pleases human beings. It's known to be one of the most exotic drinks. Allah (swt), when talking about wine in the Qur'an, mentions that there is some good in it and some bad, but that the bad is more than the good. And this is why we are asked to stay away from it. As destined said, the evil will be taken out from the wine, and we will have in front of us a pure wine, a drink superior than any drink that we have ever tasted in this world. It'll be a reward for those of us who abstained from the worldly wines, with something which is better. Whereas those who cannot resist the temptations, and follow their desires into drinking this drink of Shaytaan in this world, they will be deprived from it and all other pleasures of Paradise. May Allah make us among those who are bestowed with his blessings in the Hereafter, and make us among the people of Firdaus. Ameen. Sorry for rambling. I got a bit swayed ... Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/19/01 at 06:29:25 |
| AA I know that before Islam, the Arabs were VERY enthusiastic about wine, and wre big drinkers. Thus the ayats about wine in Jannah would be appropriate at that time. Allahu Alim. |
| NS |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/19/01 at 16:18:57 |
| Assalam ualykum, It is our aqeedah that we believe everything stated in the Qur'an to be true *literally*. There's this one verse in the Qur'an where it is written that some verses in the Qur'an are supposed to be taken literally and others are supposed to be taken metaphorically. I will look it up later and post it inshallah. wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Muslim4evva |
| 04/19/01 at 17:24:48 |
| Assalaamu 3alaikum wa ra7matullaah Sister Saleema, I am not sure, but I believe you are referring to the following aayah from Surah Aal-i-3Imraan: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established, clear meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not entirely clear. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not clear, seeking discord, and searching for hidden meanings in it, but no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (3:7) The Arabic word for 'clear verses' in this aayah is "mu7kamaat" and for verses that are 'not entirely clear' is "mutashaabihaat." If you are indeed referring to this aayah, then it is my understanding, and Allah knows best, that the word "mutashaabihaat" here refers to those aayaat of the Qur'an whose meanings are not known to us. An example of such aayaat are the 7uroof muqatta3aat (letters such as Alim Laam Meem, or Haa Meem, or Yaa Seen, etc). Please check the tafseer of this aayah for more information about what exactly is meant by the term "mutashaabihaat." The words of the Qur'an are indeed meant to be understood literally. Let me give you a few examples of what I mean, because this is an important concept of 3aqeedah which needs to be well-understood: 1. Consider the usage of the word "face of Allah" in the Qur'an (as well as the hadith) which occurs multiple times. I will just give one example here: "To Allah belong the East and the West: whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's face." (Surah al-Baqarah, aayah 115). This aayah is to be understood literally. That is, Allah (3Azza Wa Jall) has a "face." We do not know how it looks like, and we should not become involved in making conjectures about how it looks like, but we know that it is nothing like the faces that we know (human faces, animal faces, etc). We know this because of what Allah says in Surah al-Ikhlaas: "And there is none like unto Him" (Surah al-Ikhlaas, aayah 4). 2. Consider the usage of the word "hand of Allah" in the Qur'an. Consider the following aayah of Surah al-Fat7: "Verily those who plight their fealty to thee plight their fealty in truth to Allah; the Hand of Allah is over their hands: then any one who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and any one who fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah,- Allah will soon grant him a great Reward." (48:10) The words of this ayah "the Hand of Allah is over their hands" must be understood literally. It is our belief, once again, that Allah has a "hand." Once again, we do not know what it looks like, or what kind of hand it is, and neither should we indulge in making guesses about it. However, we know that it does not resemble any hand that we know of from our experiences. 3. Allah (3Azza Wa Jall) tells us in the Qur'an about the story of a group of Jews who were told not to fish on Saturdays, but they disobeyed Allah (3Azza Wa Jall), and they were punished accordingly: "And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: 'Be ye apes, despised and rejected.'" (Surah al-Baqarah, aayah 65) We need to understand, once again, that these people were literally changed into apes (and swines, according to another aayah), not simply metaphorically. These are only a few examples, and there are many more. The case is the same with a7aadith, which also need to be understood literally. We see in some a7aadith, especially in the a7aadith talking about the great fitan (events that will occur before the establishment of the Hour), many examples of things which we cannot comprehend or imagine with our minds. Examples of these include: - the sun rising from the west - the hadith which mentions men knowing the state of the wives at home by looking at their thighs - the rocks and trees talking to the believers and giving them information about the Jews etc. These a7aadith, as well as all others, need to be understood literally, not metaphorically. And Allah (3Azza Wa Jall) most certainly knows best. Wassalaamu 3alaikum wa ra7matullahi wa barakaatuh. |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| jannah |
| 04/19/01 at 23:45:15 |
| salam, i feel like i'm reliving my tuesday aqeedah class :) this is exactly what we were reviewing. basically it is as muslim4evva said, we believe in Allah's names and attributes, we do not try to explain them (the "kayf" or "how"), we do not try to compare them to us or explain them with our reality (no anthropomorphism). and we accept what Allah says and do not deny them. |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/20/01 at 08:41:44 |
| we believe in Allah's names and attributes, we do not try to explain them (the "kayf" or "how", we do not try to compare them to us or explain them with our reality (no anthropomorphism). and we accept what Allah says and do not deny them. I see what you are saying and I agree of course with not comparing Allah with anything or any being, but I don't understand how you can take that ayah that talks about the face of Allah to be literally. And no, that's not the verse I had in mind. I haven't had the chance to look at that verse in the Qur'an yet inshallah tonight I will look it up. wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/20/01 at 08:51:59 |
| Assalam ualykum, We need to understand, once again, that these people were literally changed into apes (and swines, according to another aayah), not simply metaphorically. That's not what I'm talking about. I was referring to the description of Jannah that some things are to be taken literally but some are to be taken metaphorically. I don't know the appropriate words to put this in, but about the 'description' of Allah, I don't understand how one can take that literally. But that is one subject that I don't want to discuss on the board. I would rather hear it from someone qualified to speak on this subject in depth. wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| jannah |
| 04/20/01 at 09:12:01 |
| wlm, it depends what you mean by "literal"...again all you have to go back to is that "we believe in it, we don't try to explain it and don't deny it" |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| haaris |
| 04/20/01 at 11:05:47 |
| Salaam, My watch has a face and hands but they are nothing like mine. I have no difficulty believing "literally" that Allah has a face and hands but that they are not like mine. |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| jannah |
| 04/20/01 at 11:17:55 |
| A better word to use maybe would be "real". Is the 'hand of Allah' real? "yes" |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/21/01 at 13:51:09 |
| Assalam ualykum, "The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers: perpetual is the fruits thereof and the shade therein: such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire." Q13:35 This is not the ayah that I was talking about but I found this one too. Finding ayahs is so hard! There are so many of them! :) wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Arsalan |
| 04/22/01 at 02:20:05 |
| [slm] Careful, careful Saleema :) This is one of those rare occasions where Yusuf Ali's translation is very inaccurate! The original aayah in Arabic is as follows: "Mathalul jannatillatee wu3idal muttaqoona tajree min taHtihal anhaar, ukuluhaa daa'imun wa dhilluhaa ...." (13:35) The translation of "parable" for "mathal" is not appropriate in this ayah. Whenever Allah gives a parable (comparison, analogy) in the Qur'an, he uses the word "mathal" followed by either "kamathal" or "ka." For example, see Surah al-Baqarah, aayah 17: "Mathaluhum kamathal alladhis tawqada naaraa ..." Translation from Thomas B. Irving: [They may be compared to someone who kindles a fire ...] Another example is in Surah an-Nur, aayah 35: "Allaahu noor as-samaawaati wal-arD, mathalu noorihi ka-mishkaatin feehaa miSbaaH ..." Ibid: [God is the Light of Heaven and Earth! His light may be compared to a niche in which there is a lamp ...] Please note that in the aayah that you have mentioned, the word "mathal" is neither followed by "kamathal" nor "ka", therefore it does NOT mean parable/likeness/analogy/comparison, etc. What does it mean then? Look at some other translations of this aayah: Thomas B. Irving: "(Here) is what the Garden which the heedful are promised will be like; rivers will flow through it; its food and its shade shall be perpetual. Such is the compensation for those who have done their duty, while the outcome for disbelievers will be the Fire." Noble Qur'an: "The description of the Paradise which teh Muttaqun have been promised! - Underneath it rivers flow, its provision is eternal and so is its shade, this is the end of the Muttaqun, and the end of the disbelievers is Fire." Maududi: "As regards the Paradise which the God-fearing have been promised, it is like this: canals flow beneath it, its fruits are eternal, and its shade is perpetual. SUch is the reward of the righteous, but the reward of the disbelievers is the fire of Hell." Ibn Kathir (the Urdu translation that I have which I will translate here into English!): "The characterisitc/quality (the Urdu word used is sifat) of Paradise which has been promised to the pious - Underneath it flow rivers, its fruits and shades are eternal. Such is the reward for the pious and the end of the disbelievers is Hell." Indeed, at most of the other places where Paradise is described (whether in ahaadith or the Qur'an), it is very clear that this is not simply a parable/analogy, but a true description of the reality of Paradise, explained in the best possible way to us even though we cannot imagine it completely! Let me mention this incident, which may be relevant to what we're talking about: It was narrated by Abu Ya'laa that one day when we were praying with Rasulullah (pbuh) during the Dhuhr prayer, he suddenly took a step ahead and we followed him in doing so. Then we saw that he extended his arm to reach for something, but then stepped back. After the prayer was finished, Ubayy Ibn Ka'b (r.a.) asked the Prophet (pbuh), "O Messenger of Allah! We saw you do something today that we have never seen you do before." The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) replied: "Yes. Paradise was put in front of me, and it smelled fresh and beautiful. I wished to take a bunch of grapes from one of its trees, but I was prevented from doing so. If I would have taken it, the entire world would eat from it and it wouldn't decrease from it one bit!" One Bedouin asked the Messenger of Allah: "Will there be grapes in Paradise?" He said: "Yes." He asked: "How big will the bunches be?" He said: "So big that even if a black crow was to fly for an entire month, he would not be able to supass the distance equal to its size." On a final note, I would strongly suggest that you read a good, comprehensive book on Aqeedah and/or Tawhid which deals with the issue of al-Asmaa was-Siffaat (the Names and Attributes of Allah) in detail before establishing a strong opinion about this matter. It is extremely important for us to be well-versed in our Aqeedah. Indeed, I would put this as a higher priority than most other Islamic studies (such as fiqh, usoul-al-fiqh, seerah, uloom-al-qur'an, sharee'ah, siyaasiyaat [politics], etc) although all of them are important nonetheless, of course! Wallahu Ta'aala A'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/22/01 at 02:36:28 |
| slm Didn't we have some fairly lengthy discussions on here on the Attributes of Allah (SWT)? ??? I thought I remember some good stuff from those discussion? |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/22/01 at 22:22:30 |
| Assalam ualykum, Of course I believe that heaven is an actual place that exists out there somewhere. But as regards the taking of everything literally-- I have serious problems with that when it comes to the description of Allah and about Jannah. I'm still looking for that other ayah that my teacher explained to me meant that not all descriptions about Heaven are meant to be taken literally. Brother Harris, wouldn't a better word for the "hands" on a watch would be "dials?" And the "hands" on a watch is slang? Animals have paws and claws, etc, but humans have hands. wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/23/01 at 00:42:18 |
| slm Regarding the Attributes of Allah (SWT), here is a little something on this subject. The position of the Salaf concerning the Attributes of Allaah i. Al-Awzaa'ee (d. 157H) said: I asked az-Zuhree (d. 124H) and Makhool about the verses pertaining to the Attributes, so they said, "Leave them as they came!"[1] [ii] Al-Waleed ibn Muslim said: I asked Maalik (d. 179H), al-Awzaa'ee, Layth ibn Sa'ad (d. 175H) and Sufyaan ath-Thawree (d. 161H) about the reports concerning the Attributes, so they all said, "Leave them as the came, without asking how!"[2] Imaam adh-Dhahabee (d. 748H), rahimahullaah, said, "I say: Maalik in his time was the Imaam of the people of al-Madeenah, ath-Thawree was the Imaam of Koofah, al-Awzaa'ee was the Imaam of the people of Damascus, and Layth was the Imaam of the people of Egypt; and they were from the senior (kibaar) Atbaa'ut-Taabi'oon. And this report is a consensus (ijmaa') upon this, with the absence of Muhammad ibn al-Hasan [Ash-Shaybaanee] (d. 189H) the scholar (faqeeh) of Iraq."[3] [iii] Rabee'ah ibn Abee 'Abdir-Rahmaan (d. 136H), the Shaykh of Imaam Maalik, said, "Istiwaa` is not unknown, how is incomprehensible, from Allaah is the Message, upon the Messenger is to convey it, and upon us is to accept it."[4] [iv] Sufyaan ibn 'Uyaynah (d. 198H), rahimahullaah, said, "Everything that Allaah described Himself with in His Book, then its recitation is its explanation without asking how or resembling."[5] [v] Imaam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybaanee (d. 189H), rahimahullaah, said, "The Scholars from the east and the west are all united upon having faith in the Qur`aan and in the ahaadeeth that are related by the precise, reliable narrators (thiqaat) from Allaah's Messenger sall Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, concerning the Allaah's Attributes, without explanation or resemblance. Whoever explains anything from them this day, has left that which the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam was upon and has split from the Jamaa'ah. For they neither described nor explained, but rather they gave verdicts with what was in the Book and the Sunnah, then remained silent. Whoever speaks with the view of Jahm [ibn Safwaan] has split from the Jamaa'ah, because he described Him with attributes that are nothing."[6] Ibn Taymeeyah (d. 728H) said in Majmoo' Fataawaa (5/50), "Muhammad ibn al-Hasan learnt from Aboo Haneefah (d. 150H), Maalik, and [other] scholars of their level. He related a consensus (ijmaa') and informed that the Jahmeeyah continuously, or preponderantly describe [Allaah] with matters of negativity. As for his saying: 'without explanation', then what is intended by this is the explanation of the Jahmeeyah; those who innovated an explanation concerning the Attributes, which was in opposition to that which the Companions and their followers were firmly established upon." [vi] Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 214H), rahimahullaah, said about the hadeeth of Allaah's Descending (Nuzool), "We have faith in it and we affirm it, without asking how, without explaining it, nor do we reject anything from it."[7] Ibn al-'Uthaymeen said, "The explanation that Imaam Ahmad negated in his statement was the explanation that was forwarded by the people of ta'teel (denyal) from the Jahmeeyah and others. They turned the texts of the Book and the Sunnah away from their literal (dhaahir) meanings to one that opposes this."[8] [vii] Imaam ash-Shaafi'ee (d. 204H) rahimahullaah said, "To Allaah belong Names and Attributes that occur in His Book and His Prophet related to the nation. It is not possible for anyone to refute (radd) them. So the one who contradicts this after the evidence has been established against him then he is a kaafir (non-Believer), and as for before the establishment of the proof then he is excused due to ignorance, because the knowledge of that cannot be attained through the intellect. So we affirm these Attributes and we negate tashbeeh (likening Allaah to creation) as Allaah negated it by saying, 'there is nothing like Him'"[9] He also said, "The belief that I am upon, and I saw our Companions, the Ashaabul Hadeeth - like Maalik and Sufyaan and others - to be upon is: affirming the testimony that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And that Allaah is Over His Throne, above His Heaven ('alaa 'Arshihi fee Samaa`ihi), He comes close to His Creation howsoever He Wills, and He Descends to the lowest heaven howsoever He Wills."[10] [viii] Nu'aym ibn Hammaad, the Shaykh of al-Bukhaaree, said, "Whoever resembles Allaah to His creation has committed kufr (unbelief). Whoever denies what Allaah has described Himself with has [also] committed unbelief. Whatever He has described Himself with, or His Messenger [described Him with], then there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) in it."[11] [ix] Ishaaq bin Raahawayah rahimahullaah said, "Indeed Allaah has described Himself in His Book with Attributes from which the creation is left in no need to describe Him with, other than what He described Himself with. From amongst them, 'Allaah will Come to them in the shade of clouds' and His saying, 'And you see the angels around the Throne, hymning the praises of their Lord'."[12] [x] Imaam at-Tirmidhee (d. 274H), rahimahullaah, said, "It has been stated by more than one person from the people of knowledge regarding this hadeeth, and about the likes of it from the narrations concerning the Attributes, and that Allaah, the Most Blessed, the Most High, Descends to the lowest heaven of this world every night. They said: Affirm the narrations concerning them; have faith (eemaan) in them; do not imagine them (laa yatawahhamu); nor ask how they are (wa laa yuqaalu kayf). The likes of this has been reported from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ibn 'Uyaynah and 'Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak. They said concerning these ahaadeeth, 'Leave them as they are, without asking how they are (amirroohaa bilaa kayf).' This is the saying of the people of knowledge from Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. As for the Jahmeeyah, then they reject these narrations and say that this is resemblance (tashbeeh). However, Allaah the Most High has mentioned in various places in His Book [His Attribute of] Hand (Al-Yad); Hearing (As-Sam') and Seeing (Al-Bas! r), but the Jahmeeyah give a figurative interpretation (ta'weel) to these verses and explain it in a manner other than how it is explained by the people of knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His Hand. They say: Indeed, the Hand [of Allaah] actually means His Power! Ishaaq ibn Ibraaheem said: Resemblance (tashbeeh) is when someone says the Hand [of Allaah] is like my hand, or His Hearing is like my hearing. So if someone says this, then this is resemblance. But if someone says what Allaah says, Hand, Hearing, Seeing; and he does not ask how these [Attributes] are, nor does he say that Allaah's Hearing is like my hearing, then this is not resemblance. Rather, it just like what Allaah the Most Blessed, the Most High, said in His Book, 'There is none like Him; He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing.'" [13,14] [xi] Aboo Ja'far at-Tirmidhee (d. 295H), when asked as to how Allaah keeps His Attribute of being above the creation if He Descends to the Lowest Heaven in the last third of the night, replied, "The Nuzool (Descent of Allaah) is understood, but the how / nature is unknown, and faith in it is obligatory, and to question about [how] it is an innovation (bid'ah)."[15] [xii] Adh-Dhahabee says in his Arba'een fee Sifaat Allaah, "It would be beyond ones ability to mention every Imaam who has words concerning the affirmation of Allaah's Attributes. If the opponent is not guided by those whom we mentioned saying there is a consensus upon affirming them without ta'weel (figurative interpretation), or he does not believe him in his quote, then Allaah will not guide such a person. By Allaah, there is no good in the one who rejects the likes of az-Zuhree, Makhool, al-Awzaa'ee, ath-Thawree, Layth bin Sa'ad, Maalik, ibn 'Uyaynah, ibn al-Mubaarak, Muhammad bin al-Hasan, ash-Shaafi'ee, al-Humaydee, Aboo 'Ubayd, Ahmad bin Hanbal, Aboo 'Eesaa at-Tirmidhee, ibn Surayj, ibn Jareer at-Tabaree, ibn Khuzaymah, Zakareeyah as-Saajee, Abul-Hasan al-Ash'aree. Or rejects saying the likes of their saying in acknowledging the consensus on this like al-Khattaabee, Aboo Bakr al-Ismaa'eelee, 'Abul-Qaasim at-Tabaraanee, Aboo Ahmad al-Aasaal....and 'Abdul Qaadir al-Jilaanee..." Let us carefully consider the above narrations. Ibn Taymeeyah says, "So the saying of Rabee'ah and Maalik 'Istiwaa` is not unknown, how is incomprehensible, and faith in it is obligatory' agrees with the saying of the rest, 'Leave them as they are, without asking how'. For all they did was to negate knowledge of the kayfeeyah (how the Divine Attributes are), but did not negate the reality of the Attribute. Therefore, if the people had merely believed in its wording, without understanding its meaning - in a way befitting to Allaah - then why did they say, 'Istiwaa is not unknown, and how is incomprehensible.' And why did they say, 'Leave them as they came, without asking how.' Indeed, in this case Istiwaa` would not be known, rather it would be unknown; just like the Mu'jam letters [those compound letters that occur at the beginning of certain chapters of the Qur`aan; such as: Alif-Laam-Meem, etc]. So there would be no need to negate knowledge of the kayfeeyah (how the Attributes are) if the meaning of the word was not understood. It would only! be necessary to negate knowledge of the kayfeeyah if the [meanings of the] Attribute have been affirmed..."[16] Also their saying 'they left them as they are' necessitates that [what the Attributes] indicated would remain as it were, and they came as words indicating a meaning, so if what they indicated was also to be negated then it would have been necessary to say, 'they left the words [as they are] with the belief that the meaning was not known'..."[17] So upon considering the above it becomes clear that if the Salaf had not understood the meaning of the Attributes, rather relegated the meanings to Allaah and just affirmed the wording (tafweedh al-ma'naa) their would have been no conceivable need to negate the kayfeeyah of the Attributes! Likewise the meaning of 'reciting them is their explanation' is that the clear meaning of what we recite is to be taken, and there is no need to delve into figurative explanation (ta'weel) or look for hidden and metaphorical meanings etc. This understanding has also been endorsed by the great Shaafi'ee Imaam, al-Khattaabee (d. 388H) when he said, "The madhhab (way) of the scholars of the Salaf and their legal jurists was to leave the likes of these ahaadeeth [concerning the Attributes] upon their literal (dhaahir) meanings, not to twist their meanings (laa yureeghu lahaa al-Ma'aanee) and neither to figuratively explain (ta'weel) them due to their knowledge that their limited knowledge was incapable of understanding them. Az-Za'faraanee reported from us from ibn Abee Khaythama from 'Abdul-Wahhaab bin Najda al-Hutee from Baqya from al-Awzaa'ee who said, 'Makhool and az-Zuhree used to say: We leave these ahaadeeth as they came.' I say: this is from the knowledge that we have been ordered to believe in literally without attempting to uncover it's hidden meanings, and it belongs to a host of the mutashaabiha (verses) that Allaah has mentioned in His Book, so He said, 'He is the One Who has sent to you the Book, in it are clear and unequivocal verses, and others are mutashaabiha (allegorical or open to a number of meanings).' So from the clear and unequivocal verses arises a true understanding [of their content] and action, and from the mutashaabiha arises faith and knowledge in their literal meanings, and we leave the knowledge of it's hidden meaning to Allaah, the Most Perfect..."[18] Ibn Taymeeyah also says, "...as for the third group, then they are the People of Ignorance and they are many from those who ascribe themselves to the Sunnah and following the Salaf. They say: The Messenger sall Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam did not understand the meanings of what Allaah revealed to Him from the verses pertaining to the Attributes [of Allaah], and neither did Jibreel or the Foremost Predecessors understand them. They said the same thing for the ahaadeeth concerning the Attributes - that nobody knew their meaning except Allaah....so these people think that they are following the verse "and none knows their explanation except Allaah".....but they have not distinguished between the meaning of the words and their explanation and the explanation that Allaah Alone Knows. And they thought that the ta'weel (figurative explanation) mentioned in this verse is the ta'weel mentioned in the words of the later generations and they erred in this... and the explanation of the Attributes whose reality Alla! ah Alone Knows is the knowledge of the kayfeeyah which is unknown to us. [For example] the Istiwaa` is known, it's meaning is understood, and explained and translated in other languages, and this is the explanation that those firmly grounded in knowledge know, but as for the kayfeeyah (how / nature) of the Istiwaa` then this is the explanation that none but Allaah the Exalted knows."[19] So when we come to realise that the Salaf understood the meanings of the Attributes and affirmed them it becomes necessary to also know that they did so while negating four matters: Tashbeeh (likening Allaah to His Creation) and Tajseem (likening Allaah to a body) Takyeef (enquiring into the how or nature of the Attribute) Tahreef (distorting the meaning of the Attribute) and tagyeer (changing the meaning of the Attribute) and ta'weel (figuratively interpreting the meaning of the Attribute) Ta'teel (denying the Attributes) [Consult: as-Sunnah (1/264-307) of Imaam Abdullaah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal (d.290), ash-Sharh wal Ibaanah (pp. 187-192) by ibn Battah(d. 387H), Aqeedah as-Salaf (pp. 4-7) by as-Saaboonee (d. 449H), ar-Risaalah fee Ithbaat al-Istiwaa` by al-Juwaynee (d. 438H), Sharh 'Aqeedah at-Tahaaweeyah (pp. 162-366) by ibn Abil-Izz al-Hanafee (d. 792H), at-Tadmureeyah by ibn Taymeeyah, Dhamm at-Ta'weel by al-Maqdisee, Aqaaweel ath-Thiqaat fee Ta'weel al-Asmaa` was Sifaat by ibn Yoosuf al-Karmee.] =============== Footnotes: [1] Related by al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool Ahl-is-Sunnah (no.735) with a hasan chain. [2] Related by al-Aajurree in ash-Sharee'ah (p.314) and al-Bayhaqee in al-Asmaa` was-Sifaat (p.453) with a saheeh chain, as Shaykh al-Albaanee stated in Mukhtasar al-'Uluw' (p.142). [3] al-Arba'een fee Sifaatillaah (180/Q.1-2) [4] Related by al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool (no.665) and al-Bayhaqee (p.516). Ibn Taymeeyah said in al-Hamaweeyah (p.45): "Al-Khallaal reported it with a chain of narrators who are all precise and reliable (thiqaat) scholars." [5] Related by al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool Ahl-is-Sunnah (p.736) and ad-Daaraqutnee in as-Sifaat (p.61). Its chain is saheeh as Ibn Hajr stated in Fathul-Baaree (13/501). [6] Related by al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool Ahl-is-Sunnah (no.740). Ibn Taymeeyah said in Majmoo' Fataawaa (4/4), "It is confirmed from Muhammad ibn al-Hasan - the companion of Aboo Haneefah - that he said: [as above]." [7] Related by Ibn al-Jawzee in Manaaqib-ul-Imaam Ahmad (p.156), Ibn Qudaamah in Lum'atul-I'tiqaad (no.3) and Ibn al-Qayyim in as-Sawaa'iqul-Munazzilah (1/265). [8] Fath Rabb-il-Bariyyah (p.63) [9] Siyar A'laam an-Nubalaa (10/80). Adh-Dhahabee says, "Reported by al-Hakkaaree and others with a chain of narrators containing trustworthy narrators as in Mukhtasar al-Uluoo' (p. 177). He also said, "I say: the censure of Kalaam (theological rhetoric) and its people is common from ash-Shaafi'ee, and he was very stringent in following the narrations in the usool (foundations) and the furoo' (branches)." [10] Awn al-Ma'bood (13/41), and ibn Abu Ya'la reports it in Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilaa (1/283) with a chain of narration linked back to ash-Shaafi'ee. [11] Related by al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool Ahl-is-Sunnah (no.936). Its chain of narration is saheeh, as Shaykh al-Albaanee stated in Mukhtasar al-'Uluw' (p.184). [12] Al-Arba'een fee Sifaat Allaah (no. 144) by adh-Dhahabee. [13] Soorah ash-Shooraa (42):11 [14] Sunan at-Tirmidhee (3/266-268) [15] Mukhtasar al-Uluw' (p. 231). Al-Albaanee declared the sanad saheeh. Aboo Ja'far was from the greatest scholars of his day. [16] Majmoo' Fataawaa (5/41-42) [17] al-Hamaweeyah (p.109) [18] Mu'aalim as-Sunan (4/304 - Daar al-Kutub al-'Ilmee) by al-Khattaabee under the chapter, "From the chapter concerning the Seeing (of Allaah in the Hereafter)" when he discusses the hadeeth of the Descent of Allaah. [19] al-Hamaweeyah (pp. 24+) |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/23/01 at 11:25:11 |
| [slm], bhaloo, thank you very much. :) But I'm not questioning Allah's attributes. [wlm] Saleema |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Arsalan |
| 04/23/01 at 12:02:26 |
| [slm] Saleema, I think bhaloo's last post answers your following questions which you asked in earlier posts: [quote]I don't understand how you can take that ayah that talks about the face of Allah to be literally. [/quote] [quote]about the 'description' of Allah, I don't understand how one can take that literally ... I would rather hear it from someone qualified to speak on this subject in depth. [/quote] |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/23/01 at 12:09:13 |
| Assalam ualykum, No it doesn't Arsalan. [wlm] Saleema |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/23/01 at 12:21:45 |
| >>>They say: The Messenger sall Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam did not understand the meanings of what Allaah revealed to Him from the verses pertaining to the Attributes [of Allaah>>> I do not calim this nor do I say that Allah resembles any of His creation, nor do I deny His attributes. I went back and read it and it still does not answer my questions. [wlm] Saleema |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Arsalan |
| 04/23/01 at 14:04:37 |
| [quote][vi] Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 214H), rahimahullaah, said about the hadeeth of Allaah's Descending (Nuzool), "We have faith in it and we affirm it, without asking how, without explaining it, nor do we reject anything from it."[7] Ibn al-'Uthaymeen said, "The explanation that Imaam Ahmad negated in his statement was the explanation that was forwarded by the people of ta'teel (denyal) from the Jahmeeyah and others. They turned the texts of the Book and the Sunnah away from their literal (dhaahir) meanings to one that opposes this."[8] [/quote] |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Kashif |
| 04/23/01 at 14:15:25 |
| assalaamu alaikum The best tapes i've heard in six years in explaining issues such as the Names & Attributes of Allah, as well as a general overview of the Muslim belief is a 6-tape set by Ali Timimi entitled "Aqeedatul-Waasitiyyah" in which he explains a small treatise by Ibn Taymiyyah. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| Saleema |
| 04/24/01 at 17:12:16 |
| Assalam ualykum, You guys are missing my point. You don't get what i'm trying to say so this topic is closed for me. wassalam |
| Re: Rivers of Wine |
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| jannah |
| 04/24/01 at 20:14:54 |
[wlm] agreed Kashif those are excellent tapes. sometimes we don't understand things and just ask questions here and there. it's better if we learn something from the ground up and along the way it eliminates alot of our random questions. sometimes we are just asking the wrong questions too so never receive the answers we're looking for. so i give the set a thumbs up too :) two thumbs up ppl! :)(i think if kashif and i agree on something its more of a miracle than roger and ebert agreeing! ;)) [quote]assalaamu alaikum The best tapes i've heard in six years in explaining issues such as the Names & Attributes of Allah, as well as a general overview of the Muslim belief is a 6-tape set by Ali Timimi entitled "Aqeedatul-Waasitiyyah" in which he explains a small treatise by Ibn Taymiyyah. Kashif Wa Salaam[/quote] |
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