Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 04/25/01 at 10:10:54 |
| Assalamu'alaikum, Dearest Akhawat (and brothers who ventured in!) Have U come across this situation before... where a brother proposed to a sister, and the sister's istikharah is negative, but the brother's istikharah or his intuition is positive. I have my own thoughts, but what do U think of these 2 seemingly conflicting answers. What might you think the hikmah (wisdom) behind this? Jazakallah :-) |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/26/01 at 08:00:57 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]Have U come across this situation before... where a brother proposed to a sister, and the sister's istikharah is negative, but the brother's istikharah or his intuition is positive.[/quote] Ermm…no [quote]I have my own thoughts, but what do U think of these 2 seemingly conflicting answers. What might you think the hikmah (wisdom) behind this? [/quote] Hmmm….this really is an interesting question. The following is from Fiqh-us-Sunnah [color=Blue]It is a sunnah that, if one must choose between permissible alternatives, one may pray two non-obligatory rak'at, even if they are of the regular sunnah prayers or a prayer for entering the mosque, and so on, during any time of the day or night, and to recite therein whatever one wishes of the Qur'an after reciting al-Fatihah. Then one praises Allah and sends salutations to the Prophet sallallahu alehi wasallam and recites the following supplication which has been recorded by al-Bukhari in Jabir's narration: "The Prophet sallallahu alehi wasallam would teach us al-istikhara for all of our affairs as he would teach us a surah from the Qur'an. He said: 'If one of you is deliberating over an act, he should pray two non-obligatory rak'at and say: "O Allah, I consult You as You are All-Knowing and I appeal to You to give me power as You are Omnipotent, I ask You for Your great favor, for You have power and I do not, and You know all of the hidden matters . O Allah ! If you know that this matter (then he should mention it) is good for me in my religion, my livelihood, and for my life in the Hereafter, (or he said: 'for my present and future life,') then make it (easy) for me. And if you know that this matter is not good for me in my religion, my livelihood and my life in the Hereafter, (or he said: 'for my present and future life,') then keep it away from me and take me away from it and choose what is good for me wherever it is and please me with it." There is nothing authentic concerning something specific that is to be recited in the prayer nor is there any authentic report concerning how many times one should repeat it. An-Nawawi holds that "after performing the istikharah, a person must do what he is wholeheartedly inclined to do and feels good about doing and should not insist on doing what he had desired to do before making the istikharah. And if his feelings change, he should leave what he had intended to do, otherwise he is not completely leaving the choice to Allah, and would not be honest in seeking aid from Allah's power and knowledge. Sincerity in seeking Allah's choice, means that one should completely leave what he himself had desired or determined." [/color] |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/29/01 at 01:35:50 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) The only thing I could come up with was may be only one side's prayer was accepted thus leading to contradictory responses? Allah knows best |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 04/29/01 at 02:10:47 |
| Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullah, akhi... :-) Jazakallah for the your response... I really appreciate you thinking about this coz, there are a lot of sisters who experience this. But I think I shall hold my thoughts for a while longer, and see what others' responses are, inshaALlah. Meanwhile, do share your thoughts if U see any connection somewhere... Jazakallah, once again :) |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Rashid |
| 04/29/01 at 15:54:58 |
| [slm] Maybe the brother prayed istikhara before proposing? and that led him to propose. Then the sister prayed it after hearing the proposal? Just my humble opinion, and Allah knows best. |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Hadid |
| 04/29/01 at 23:39:40 |
| i take what Rasyid said. i've same question sometime ago, but ... who am i? dare 2 question His power and will. Our 'jodoh' (gee ... what is it said in English ... mmm ... spouse, i think) is at His hand. if my result from istikhara is positive but rejected ... oh, well ... i must have been wrong 2 c His sign, so ... here i go, propose another sis. ps . sorry, my english isn't that good. feel free to let me know my mistake(s). |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| jannah |
| 04/29/01 at 23:45:35 |
| wlm, they should probably take more time to discuss some things with each other and do istakhara again a few times. perhaps it is a sign she is not ready yet or needs to get some doubts out of the way first. |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Nazia |
| 04/30/01 at 00:21:30 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, I don't know too much about Ishtikhara except that what you are essentially doing is putting your trust in Allah (SWT). Ya Allah if this is good for me, then make it easy for me, and if it is not good for me, then please take it away from me. Now lets think about what we're saying. When we make ishtikhara, we need to be in a very neutral state of mind, because obviously if we have already made up our minds, we are not REALLY seeking the guidance of Allah. Getting in this state is no easy task, especially when dealing with marriage situations. So I think that this whole "negative sign, positive sign" is totally relative to the person experiencing the feeling. In other words, what constitutes a negative feeling anyway? Doubts? fears? a bad dream? Whats a positive sign? A flutter of the heart when they are near by? A smile at the thought of marrying this person? A good dream? If they don't want to marry the guy in the first place, its very natural that they'll have "negative feelings/dreams" etc.. If they do like the bro, its natural that they'll have good dreams/feelings. Instead of simply asserting that their feeling was "negative" or "positive" perhaps they should re-examine their state of mind during Ishtikhara. So to your original question: [quote]the sister's istikharah is negative, but the brother's istikharah or his intuition is positive. [/quote] I would suggest that maybe one of them (or both of them) had made up their mind from beforehand (atleast to a certain degree) and this somehow influenced their "feelings, intuitions." But what do I know? :) Take Care, Wassalamu Alaikum, Nazia |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/11/01 at 00:49:35 |
| Assalamu'alaikum... Jazakallah for sharing, alhamdulillah... well... I have been thinking about this... and this is my resting point... for now.... Assuming that both brothers and sisters did it correctly, and interpreted it (their feelings to the asnwer) correctly.... [quote] Ya Allah if this is good for me, then make it easy for me, and if it is not good for me, then please take it away from me. [/quote] perhaps... an answer to one's istikharah is not via feelings per se... but developments of events as well. And hence, it is just not meant to be. For we have asked ALlah to make it easy if it is good for us, and take it away if it is not. Hence, whatever we have gone through... whether it has affected us positively, neutrally or simply wrenched our hearts out, the experience that we went through due to our actions based on the istikhara would be tarbiyah (development) and education/ lessons for us... something that is the best for us to grow, discover and mature. [quote]Maybe the brother prayed istikhara before proposing? and that led him to propose. Then the sister prayed it after hearing the proposal? [/quote] Probably, that is why, eventhough the brother has positive feelings... as Br Rashid said... what happened would be influenced by what we prayed for. Perhaps, it's best that he proposes the sister... perhaps it's best that he learns about himself, and what led him to propose etc... but it is not the best for him to proceed to eventually marry the sister. [quote]perhaps it is a sign she is not ready yet or needs to get some doubts out of the way first. [/quote] Yes... and maybe it's "time". Maybe, the time is not now... but later in the future, when both the brother and sister have gone through the tests that Allah wants them to go through to develop themselves... then, in time, they would be the best for each other.... Well, the thought processes goes on... but the end of the day, it is about relying our utmost trust in Allah when Allah has decreed a matter to be... and hence it is..... Wallahu a'lam |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/11/01 at 01:05:54 |
| Salam, again :) Sorry.. just a side comment.... [quote]When we make ishtikhara, we need to be in a very neutral state of mind, because obviously if we have already made up our minds, we are not REALLY seeking the guidance of Allah. Getting in this state is no easy task, especially when dealing with marriage situations. So I think that this whole "negative sign, positive sign" is totally relative to the person experiencing the feeling. [/quote] ermm... to me, though one may have initial inclinations to an asnwer... the very fact that one does not know what the future entails, and hence, would only want the best for that future, as how the du'a goes... I think, Allah's answer would override those initial feelings in the heart... For the element of [i]not knowing[/i] what would happen in the future sets the heart to be neutral and solely dependent on what Allah reveals to it. I don't know about other sisters (or brothers) but do U find performing istikharas emotionally draining? If so.. or if not... why? I'm not asking for the mere sake for questioning but hopefully to be more appreciative of this blessing that Allah has given us.... If it's not too personal... U might like to share a story and lessons learnt (don't have to go to details if U don't want to...) But inshaALlah, maybe... it can help us be clear... when we need to do an/ another istikharah. Wallahua'lam... |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| SA |
| 05/11/01 at 11:53:24 |
| Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah I had the same questions in the past, but after reading Adnan 'Uroori's book, "The 3 abandoned Prayers", most of my istikhaara questions were answered, alhamdulillah. It's an amazing and somewhat mysterious tool, that istikhaara...[please read the book, my explanation doesn't count!]. For example, what do you do in the original situation with "feelings" or "signs"? Well, the whole issue of istikhaara, from my little understanding, does *not* necessarily hinge upon "feelings" or "signs" (and puhleez don't go by your dreams when "interpretting" istikhaara signs. On more than one occasion, other sisters and I have had dreams about one thing, but in the end, it turned out completely differently). As Nazia pointed out, that's all relative, although at the same time, Allah is capable of giving us the knowledge each individual needs, wAllah'alim. From the times that I've done istikhaara for various decisions in the past, I've had *feelings*, but things sometimes turned out a different way. Allah took care of things, beyond what my limited knowledge could comprehend at the time. And of course, it turned out much better for me in the end, alhamdulillah. Point being, istikhaara isn't like fortune-telling (I always have to remind myself of that when I do it), it's guidance from Allah on any matter. The choices you have could be as simple as, to do it or not to do it. And you can intend to do whatever it is you originally set out to do, as long as it's halal, you just need to trust that if something else happens, it's Allah's will. The point is, that Allah will either take what is wrong for you away from you to some degree (make it difficult to impossible), or make it easy for you; ie make it happen (maybe not in the way/timing you imagined, either), *whatever* you originally intended, there is no power or might except with Allah. For example, if I intended to go to PA last weekend, and had no reason not to, did istikhaara, kept the intention to go to PA (that's my "bias", say I always go to PA on the wkds; a "bias" can be different from not putting your trust in Allah), and somehow ended up in some round about way at a friend's house at the last minute who needed someone there (hasn't this happened to you?), it's Allah's way of answering your request for guidance. PA just wasn't happening that wkd. Anyways, back to the original question, it may be a matter of what the bro intended to do (propose), but the outcome may have been different than what was expected (rejection)? Even if the sister went ahead and accepted with her "negative feelings", Allah wouldn't allow it to happen (the marriage) unless He wanted them to get married after istikhaara (whatever's best for your deen, in this life and in the akhira). wAllahu'alim, leave your trust in Allah, the outcome is the reality...which from my experience, doesn't happen overnight, either! It's all an adventure, isnt' it? And I have no authority to speak on these things, just wanted to give you some examples of my own experiences/outcomes...and I won't open up the can of worms that is "what if the istikhaara wasn't accepted?", cuz wAllahu'alim, but aye yo, have trust in Allah, He's there when you need him. May we all make the best decisions that will please Allah, aameen. wAllahu'alim, may Allah forgive/correct me if I've said something wrong. Please just read the book. |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Asim |
| 05/11/01 at 18:48:31 |
| [quote]wAllahu'alim, leave your trust in Allah, the outcome is the reality...which from my experience, doesn't happen overnight, either! It's all an adventure, isnt' it? [/quote] Yep, I totally agree with SA. Keep the trust in Allah and let things proceed 'normally'. If the heart is fertile (with certainity in good from Allah) then eventually something good will develop (grow) in there :) Wasalaam. |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/11/01 at 22:51:52 |
| Assalamu'alaikum... [quote]Even if the sister went ahead and accepted with her "negative feelings", Allah wouldn't allow it to happen (the marriage) unless He wanted them to get married after istikhaara (whatever's best for your deen, in this life and in the akhira).[/quote] Jazakillah, sis SA.... hmmm... I've never really thought about it that way... but doesn't acting against the istikharaa, would only lead to one's destruction? coz, one has asked Allah of His advise on a matter, and we turn against it? [quote]Well, the whole issue of istikhaara, from my little understanding, does *not* necessarily hinge upon "feelings" or "signs"[/quote] hmmm... I don't usually dream... but I trust my feelings... however, I do know that if smt's not meant to be, it won't be, even if we feel soooo positive.... but if we are in the position to orientate the final outcome... then.... OK... I NEED THE BOOK!!! wassalam.. thanx a lot, people! :) P.S. [quote]If the heart is fertile (with certainity in good from Allah) then eventually something good will develop (grow) in there[/quote] InshaAllah khair :) thanx, akhi... :) |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| SA |
| 05/14/01 at 12:05:15 |
| Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, Yes, pls do get the book, sister Barr, I think I'm on my 3rd copy, I keep giving mine away, since sooo many ppl have questions on istikhaara, wAllahu'alim. You mentioned: "hmmm... I've never really thought about it that way... but doesn't acting against the istikharaa, would only lead to one's destruction? coz, one has asked Allah of His advise on a matter, and we turn against it?" "Acting against" the istikhaara? "We turn against" what? I'm not sure what that means, but if you mean going against your initial "gut feeling/reaction", than take that with a grain of salt. Feelings change all the time, as I'm sure we've all experienced with istikhaara at one pt or another. As you prob know, the saheeh narrations on istikhaara make no direct mention from the Prophet [saws] regarding the interpretation of "feelings/signs", so even if we have them, it makes logical sense to follow your heart in a matter. My point was, Allah will take care of the matter, no matter what we think is the correct course of action. Don't worry too much about interpreting "feelings/signs" since the Prophet (s) never asked his companions to do that. Trust in Allah, the outcome is what the actual answer to the istikhaara du'a would be, wAllahu'alim. From what little I know, if we trust that Allah will take care of the matter after doing istikhaara *no matter what plan of action we choose to go with, as long as it's halal*, then it's impossible to go against the will of Allah, may Allah correct me if I'm misinterpreting. Meaning, He will take of it! Yaani, if the sister was proposed to, did istikhaara either before or after it, then accepted the proposal, even if she had negative feelings/doubts, Allah would not put her in a situation that was wrong for her/her deen (ie, if it's best for her to be married to the bro, Allah would make it happen, if it's not best, Allah would take it out of the picture). I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear, so I'll just say, hope the book helps you more, iA! |
| NS |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/14/01 at 12:29:29 |
| Assalamu'alaikum, Dear Sis SA... Jazakillahu khair... yes.. I meant that if we act contrary to the feelings after we have done the istikhaara. It's clearer now, alhamdulillah... but like what U said... I think I need the book... But bottom line.... Trust Allah.... Hasbun Allah wa ni'mal wakeel.... take care ukht, thanx :) wassalam :-) |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| jannah |
| 05/20/01 at 23:16:12 |
| You know I just thought of something odd... when you multiply two positive numbers you get a positive, if you multiply one negative and one positive you get a negative number, even if the numbers are switched around. So maybe istikharah is like that.. when both ppl get positive signals it's a go.. but if the istakhara isn't meant to be then one of the people will receive a negative --maybe someone who is more suited to receive it, or maybe the one where whatever they receive plays a part in their later life. So maybe we're looking at this wrong.. two different istakharahs aren't really a contradiction then...it's just always meant to be like that. |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/22/01 at 05:17:02 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) U know what, ukhti... when I first read that... I think, that makes sense... and I think it's a pretty cool way to rationalise it. (-)(+)= - (+)(+)= + (-)(-)= +? But a negative and a negative answer to the istikharah, would not churn out a positive answer... ie. marriage may not happen, though that would be the best outcome. [quote]maybe someone who is more suited to receive it, or maybe the one where whatever they receive plays a part in their later life. [/quote] Sometimes, whatever that comes up with our istikharah, teaches us about the intrinsic and subtle aspects of life... something of self discovery, a process of learning... and yes, for future applications ... and hence, perhaps, that answer is the best for us, at that point of time... ermmm...whether we like it or not.... But I think the biggest hurdle, perhaps, is in accepting and be in redha with the answer, inshaALlah... At the end of the day, I truly believe that if it's meant to be, it'll be... and what is not, will not. U know what? Just wanna share a story... OK, OK... I know it is not Islamically ideal... but the point is that if it's meant to be, it'll be... Here's John's and Sissy's story [url=http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/expat/npex991024a.html]Sissy's side of the story[/url] [url=http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/expat/npex991024.html]John's side of the story[/url] wallahua'lam |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| chachi |
| 05/25/01 at 17:25:32 |
| Maybe she would have gone ahead with it in any case in which case theres no need to reply and the brother is being urged to go ahead because the alternatives for him were worse? |
| Re: How would you look at the signs? |
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| Barr |
| 05/25/01 at 20:13:38 |
| Huh? Me don't understand.... ??? But if the sister is to go ahead, with a negative feeling in her heart... and it still won't happen.... don't U think it'll be worse for the brother... coz, you know... the higher those hopes go, the harder they fall... Besides.... the sister would feel miserable, with this nagging uneasy negative feeling... and at the end of the day (that doesn't end with a wedding)... BOTH feels More miserable than before.... :( |
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