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Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jannah
04/26/01 at 00:00:06
My Comments: I found this to be an extremely powerful passage. I see this focus on women's dress talked about in this excerpt more and more. It alarms me as it does the author. I've seen sisters who don't wear hijab excluded from everything from social gatherings to being an active member in an MSA. How is she supposed to grow? How is she supposed to learn if we can't get over our obsession with just hijab?? Many times if a sister takes off her hijab it's like she is ex-communicated from the religion or something!! We never think.. why did she do that.. what drove her to it?? Is she praying.. Where is her Iman? Issues that are way more important to bring her back to Islam than just putting on a hijab are completely ignored. And then I see the other side, where if a sister is wearing hijab then she feels like she is doing alot and I know I've been guilty of it too.. that once ur wearing hijab it is such an accomplishment (in this society) that it becomes your Islamic identity. Striving to be a better Muslim, learning, achieving becomes secondary. Anyway as sisters we must get past this focus on "the dress issue". Islamic dress will come as part of becoming a better Muslim.  As a Muslim community we must get past this focus on "women's role in the home" and branch out to women's role in society, in learning, in educating etc, otherwise we will never advance as an Ummah. [color=purple] ... The excessive focus on Women As an Issue has got to change - or rather we must revert to what the Prophet brought - because it sidelines the whole impetus of Islam into nothing more significant than sorting out household affairs. In the past among the Turkic peoples, it was very common for women to act as regents while their husbands were away (a natural extension of overseeing the household), which means that by empowering her, he in turn was empowered to go and change society. She, being empowered and educated, would pass this on to her children who in turn would be empowered and go out and change society. Thus we have energy, dynamism and vibrancy. The alternative is all too often embittered or neurotic women imprisoned in their homes, expending all their efforts in trying to control their families and taking out their frustrations on them - and then the men are enslaved to this mutually debilitating emotional bondage. The social project goes down the drain. A symptom of this is the EXCESSIVE concentration on the Issue of Women's Dress - particularly on the part of men. It seems that women's dress has been transformed into the badge of Islamic identity. You do not define your identity as a Muslim by a piece of cloth - which is not to say take it off altogether. There is no doubt that it is necessary for women to be modestly dressed as indicated by the Prophet. But this is not the sole zone of action for the Muslim - there are more important issues which should attract our energy. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, discussed men's dress more than he did women's dress. The constant and almost exclusive focus on women?s dress has become a distraction from the real issues about which the Muslims should be more passionate - like usury, social justice, and the actual implementation of Islam in a real way. The first fundamental right any woman or man has is to be a free human being, able to fulfil the role for which she or he was created: to worship the Creator in the manner shown us by His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. This exists nowhere at the present moment. And what is more alarming is that this crucial issue tends to be ignored in favour of a fixation on the minutiae of Women's Dress and Domestic Role. People ignore the fact that neither the man nor the woman is empowered in modern society. ... --[i]Islam: The Empowering of Women by Aisha Bewley

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Kathy
04/26/01 at 08:12:47
slm Jannah- you are so right- this is a good wake up call. How many Muslims have we "lost" because of a piece of cloth?
NS

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
MuslimaKanadiyya
04/26/01 at 08:44:16
assalam alaikum, The author is right -- there are bigger issues to deal with. I don't wear hijab yet (I've been Muslim for less than six months), but I hope to have the courage to wear it soon.  The thing is, though, that I am never noticed by anyone (Muslim or not) when I'm not wearing it, but get all kinds of inappropriate advances from Muslim men when I do.  One gentleman barged into the women's section of the mosque to tell me that he desperately wants a wife and would I allow him to call my parents. On the not being noticed side, my friends and I were helping out with the Islamic Awareness Week displays on campus.  Two of the girls (me, and a friend who is Pakistani) were not wearing hijab.  A man comes out of nowhere and starts berating my friend for not wearing hijab.  Knowing nothing about her, he told her she was not a good Muslim and that she had no right to help with the displays because her iman was too weak.  He was glaring at her the whole time, yelling at her for at least ten minutes.  She was in tears.  This all took place in the lobby of a large building in front of everyone.  He scared away some non-Muslims who had wanted to ask questions and embarrased all of us.  As for me, he never even looked my way.  I guess he just assumed that I couldn't possibly be Muslim. wassalam

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
BrKhalid
04/26/01 at 09:00:19
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]In the past among the Turkic peoples, it was very common for women to act as regents while their husbands were away (a natural extension of overseeing the household), which means that by empowering her, he in turn was empowered to go and change society. She, being empowered and educated, would pass this on to her children who in turn would be empowered and go out and change society. Thus we have energy, dynamism and vibrancy. The alternative is all too often embittered or neurotic women imprisoned in their homes, expending all their efforts in trying to control their families and taking out their frustrations on them - and then the men are enslaved to this mutually debilitating emotional bondage. The social project goes down the drain.[/quote] It seems to me that sometimes (for whatever reason) we seem to belittle our sisters obtaining and acquiring knowledge and don't really give them the encouragement that they need. As the passage says it's through knowledgeable mothers that our Ummah will grow and prosper in the future. With respect to the excessive issue I sometimes wonder whether it’s a human characteristic that when we see a perceived weakness in a person we somehow feel somewhat superior for not having the same trait?

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
UmmZaid
04/26/01 at 09:39:43
This has been my newest pet peeve!  I have Ai'sha Beweley's excellent book too, btw.  Anyway, I have been mulling over writing something about this for Cyber Muslima.   The one that really gets me is the one (hijab essay) that says that hijab is the truest test of faith for a Muslim woman.  Oh PLEASE!  No one would ever dream of saying the same about the beard for men!  In add'n, tooooooo toooooo many women wear hijab b/c of culture or family and they do not ACT as Muslims at all.  Big whoop, she wears a scarf, but tons of makeup... or tight clothes.... or she dates.... or she doesn't pray, doesn't fast, doesn't read Qur'an.  But I guess her faith as a Muslima is established b/c she put on a scarf!  @@ OTOH, I get quite tired of the attacks from the "hijab is not fardh" side.  I am thinking here of Asma Gull Hasan's new book "American Muslims: the new generation."  Somehow, it is expected when non Muslims attack the muhajaba ast stupid, backwards, fundamentalist, out of touch with reality, and so on. But when another Muslim does it... subhan'Allah. (I do *NOT* recommend her book to ANYONE.  She had soooo many errors in there regarding Qur'an, let alone her ... well, deviant views on many issues....of course, all the libraries and Barnes and Nobles have it...!  @@)

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
04/26/01 at 09:48:17
Muslima kanadiyyah. The problem with you getting advances is not due to you wearing hijab, but it is due to a lot of men being perverts. There are women's sections in the musjid to keep men and women separated. The man had no right to approach you, you could have already been married or engaged. Advances are not something unique to Muslims, all women are harassed by these. But kaffar women get advances for the sake of zina. The man should have been beaten up, and kicked out, it was a Musjid, not a bar. I have been to lodes of universities, What happened to the Pakistani sister has less to do with Hijab and more to do with peoples behaviour. I have never seen some one talk to a sister about stuff including hijab, cause I don't look at them. But I have seen behavear like that a lot. It happens a lot in the men's prayer room. Men among men are very aggressive, and often even violent. The main culprit in Briton are the Saudi stooges. Main victims are people within mujahid groups or political parties that are working to overthrow the king of kufr.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
04/26/01 at 10:19:07
Aslam walakum, Jannah, I agree with you that dawa should be done in a effective Manner. But I feel that the issue of Hijab is being swept under the carpet not over emphasised. What I mean is how would we feel if a brother came in to a Musjid, a meting or a social gathering with his awrah uncovered? And would we see it as appropriate if a man with an uncovered awrah was representing Islam. I had a massive argument with the Amir of the Isoc at this Uni. about this issue. Cause there is a large conversion rate here, and a lot of people who were brought up by doggy parents are away from home for the first time, so can go to the bar and completely out of Islam, or to the prayer rooms and back in to it. The problem is when some one who is uncovered is the face of the Islamic Soc., these newcomers see that as exceptable conduct. So cover's might stop covering, when they see the person who is teaching them Islam and calling them back in to it is uncovered. And people who want to get close to Allah will never start covering as they are learning Islam from the uncovered. Actions speak louder then words.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
04/26/01 at 10:41:33
[quote]Knowing nothing about her, he told her she was not a good Muslim and that she had no right to help with the displays because her iman was too weak.  He was glaring at her the whole time, yelling at her for at least ten minutes.  She was in tears.  This all took place in the lobby of a large building in front of everyone.  He scared away some non-Muslims who had wanted to ask questions and embarrased all of us.[/quote]Uggghhhh!!!!!  This is so RIDDDICULOUS! When are people going to learn??!!!!

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
tq
04/26/01 at 10:43:49
Assalamo elikuim I agree with that. I remember reading an article by "a very good writer i forgot his name" and he wrote that one time a seemingly pious man came to him  and asked him that do you want is that most important thing for your iman? and the writer was hoping to hear something very important and the man replied that the most important thing is that your wife should wear hijab!!. it was also in the article that it most people seem to think that a man's level of iman is judge by not what he believes in or do but if his wife/mother/daughter wear hijab or not!! I also agree with jihad second post. Wasalam tq

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
04/26/01 at 12:46:38
slm man oh man is this a bad day from me..I go from one thread to another and all I read is hijab hijab hijab. Isn't there anything else relevant to women that we can discuss.. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
04/26/01 at 14:06:50
aslam walakum,,,,, this is for you sister elinor,some thing other then hijab,,, i think women should make their husbands go jihad,  and should do all they can to prepar all the males in their family for the field. get your sons used to training from when they are very little. there are some kinds of dawa that is best left for men, due to extreme danger, you lot should beat your husbands if they dont take part.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
se7en
04/26/01 at 14:54:29
eleanor that's exactly what this thread is trying to get away from. read the excerpt..

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Mahmoodah
04/26/01 at 19:55:35
[quote]slm man oh man is this a bad day from me..I go from one thread to another and all I read is hijab hijab hijab. Isn't there anything else relevant to women that we can discuss.. [/quote] salam bro/sis, dunno wat u r!!! but the hijab is sumthing that has a real big importance, not just for sisters but also 4 brothers, its also important as ppl will b able to identify u as a muslim!!! jannah ur sooooooo right, n so'z the auther

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Teacup
04/26+01 at 22:33:38
Assalamu Alaikum I always get a little bent out of shape about this subject.  I think we have to be honest about hijab it is Fard but we need to stop with being so judgemetal.  I used to hold a study circle with some high school and college girls and one day we started talking about hijab. I told them there is no way around it it's obligatory but having said that I also explained to them that hijab has a profound meaning and I as a person could not force that on anyone.  Everyone has to be reconciled with god.  When we begin to concern ourselves with what others think then our acts of Ibadah become worthless.  Being a hijabi of course I embrace it becuause I fully understand it.  I however think there are a lot of people out there that know what they should be doing but have convinced themselves that wearing hijab is too difficult.  I became muslim 3 years ago and I even went through this period (the first six months) but I knew that I needed to wear it.  I also knew that once I put it on it wasn't something I could just discard when things got tough.  I know some people are sick of the whole hijab issue and that makes me sad becuase their is such incredibe beauty in it.  I suppose though I always feel slightly in the minority because my husband is of a culture where the women don't necesarrily wear hijab so when we have gatherings only myself and two other sisters wear hijab.  Anyway now I am rambling.  I hope I made sense in this post ;) Sr. Teacup

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
04/27/01 at 01:34:45
[slm] Subhan Allah!  I wonder how many people who wrote in this thread actually took the time to read the first post in it!?! If you haven't already, please read it.  It's a good read methinks. Going back to the issue at hand, I remember one of my ustaaz's (teachers) saying to me once: "the moment you talk to a non-practicing Muslimah about hijaab ... you have lost her!" What is amazing is that 5 years later (3 months ago), another ustaaz of mine told me this: "I would *never* mention the beard, music or shorts to these brothers (whom we're trying to get involved).  If it is something that they bring up, that's another story, but I myself would never initiate this topic with them.  Never!" Indeed, there's wisdom in these words.   Granted that both hijaab and the beard* are obligatory upon female and male muslims respectively, there's a need for wisdom when calling people to Islam.  The overwhelming majority of Muslim sisters know the Islamic ruling about hijaab.  Therefore, our attempts of enlightening them will serve no purpose at all, except turn them away from interacting with us in the future!  And the last thing you want as a da'ee is for the person who you are trying to help to begin avoiding conversations with you! I know some people disagree with me on this point, but I have always believed that those actions which sprout from the heart and grow outwardly are more lasting and are done with more conviction than those that grow from the outward into the inner self.  Hijaab should be the *result* of one's conviction about the existence of Allah and about the Wisdom which He possesses.  It should be the result of our eagerness for obeying His commands and His Messenger's.  It should be the result of one's deepest desires to become like the Mothers of the Believers.   Hijaab should be a result,  not a cause.  It should be an end-product of imaan, not something that itself inculcates and increases imaan!   Perhaps this is why Allah (swt) never mentioned hijaab until way into the Madinan life.  Simply because there are more important things that need to be established first.  These things being faith, prayer, sisterhood, a desire to work earnestly for the Deen, etc.   It is interesting to note that before the verses were revealed about the hijaab, several companions were already thinking about this in their own minds - that women should be told to cover!  Umar (r.a.), for example, mentions about himself that he was about to propose this to the Prophet (pbuh) when the verses were revealed.   Subhan Allah!  The people were ready for it.  Nay, they were yearning for it, and that is when Allah (swt) told them to do it.  And what was the result of such brilliantly timed move by Allah (swt)?  According to A'isha (r.a.), the women of Madina, upon hearing the verses of hijaab, tore their outer garments immediately and used them to cover their heads.   I don't want to make this longer than it should be.  I think someone already mentioned the ayah of the Qur'an which talks about how Musa was told to talk to Pharaoh in a nice manner.  There's another aayah which commands the Believers to invite the people towards the Path with wisdom and patience.   Wisdom includes prioritizing things - to figure out what to say to who, and when to say it and when to keep your mouth shut.  Alas, wisdom is something which is only bestowed by Allah to whomever He pleases.  I ask Him to make us among those whom He blesses with this gift.   May Allah help us spread His blessed Deen in the best way - the way in which it was spread by the best generation.  The generation of the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions. Wassalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. *Beard is obligatory according to most of the earlier scholars.  I realize and respect that there are also other opinions which say that it is only a Sunnah.  Please, let's not start this debate again!

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
04/27/01 at 08:03:04
slm my apologies for sounding off about hijab earlier. Certainly I believe hijab is fard and for the good of the woman. But I also agree with the article (yes I did read it se7en ;) ) that being a good Muslim cannot be reduced to whether the woman wears hijab The article said that the women's dress is the badge of Islamic identity. This is true. And this is true because Allah decreed it so. Believing women should wear hijab so that they may be recognised as such. Yes it *is* the badge of islamic identity but it is *not* symbolic of how good a Muslim someone is. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Saleema
04/27/01 at 12:22:22
[slm] know some people disagree with me on this point, but I have always believed that those actions which sprout from the heart and grow outwardly are more lasting and are done with more conviction than those that grow from the outward into the inner self. My hijab grew from the outside "into my inner self." And I plan on wearing it for as long as I live and inshallah this act of mine is done with "more conviction" and like I said it will be "lasting." [wlm] Saleema

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
04/27/01 at 12:31:31
[slm] [quote]My hijab grew from the outside "into my inner self." [/quote] Saleema, judging from what you wrote in the other thread about your hijaab story, I doubt the veracity of this statement.  I think that in your case also hijaab grew from the inner to the outer.  Your mom never forced you to wear the hijaab, she just told you once.  It was your conviction inside of you, that voice which kept talking to you, that made you finally take up hijaab.  And once you followed that voice, that conviction, that's it!  You're never going to give it up now.  Because you know what made you wear it in the first place! Anyway, like I said, some people may disagree with me on this point ... Wassalaamu alaikum.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Saleema
04/27/01 at 12:33:50
[slm] Now that you explained it. I feel so much better now. Thanks.  :)  :) [wlm] Saleema

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
04/27/01 at 13:50:51
Aslam walakum, The title is about excessive discussion about women's dress, A strange thing is why do people discuses it as a solely Islamic issue. The text of hijab is still present within the Jewish scriptures, and orthodox Jews and some eastern Christians (Christians do believe in the Old Testament and Jesus him self followed the shriah of Moses) still practice hijab. But among the Jews in a very strange way, they recognise they have to cover their hair, but at the same they like trying to be cleverer then Allah, so what do they do? They put a wig on. They use a wig as a hijab, as that way they cover their hair but at the same time can look like they are showing it. But the joke is on them, cause wearing a wig on top of hair keeps in a lot of heat, so a lot of them shave their hair and are bald under the wig. They believe Allah has asked them to hide the beauty of their hair from non-related men, but they show fake hair out side their homes to strange unrelated men, and a baldhead within their homes to their husbands. Why don't Jews and Christians tell their women to cover themselves the way their text orders. And why don't people persecute Christian and Jewish people who cover them selves, with the excuse of trying to liberate them from the male dominated need to cover?

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
bhaloo
04/27/01 at 13:55:39
slm Arsalan, those were some truly wonderful words of wisdom!  :)

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
04/27/01 at 14:19:31
[quote] But among the Jews in a very strange way, they recognise they have to cover their hair, but at the same they like trying to be cleverer then Allah, so what do they do? They put a wig on. [/quote] This is true. I saw a programme on this a couple of years ago. I couldn't believe it. These women were going around in sexy clothes with full make up and wigs (which looked really real). And why?  Because the Jewish law decrees that the man is cursed whose wife shows her hair. And then they go and say that Islam is archaic! At least in Islam the woman wears hijab for her own good and not to save her husband. Some of you may think that I'm a little crazy because one minute I'm jumping down someones throat about hijab and the next I'm defending it. Please understand this..I *want* to wear hijab and Insha Allah I *will* wear hijab. That's all for the moment. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
humble_muslim
04/27/01 at 14:23:16
AA Eleanor, I'm sorry I have to disagree.  When a woman wears a hijab OUT OF HER OWN CONVICTION, and simply for the sake of Allah SWT, it is undoubetdly a symbol of her actions being in tune with her Iman.  And this, more than anything else, is a symbol of how good a muslim you are. Let's look at another example, music.  We all know that music is haram.  Some people still listen to it.  We don't judge them, may Allah guide them and us.  However, those who have got to the point where they no longer listen to it, without doubt that is a symbol of how good muslims they are. In short, if a muslim (man or woman) is doing an outward act out of the fear and love of Allah SWT, whatever that act is, it IS a symbol of being a good muslim. At the same time, there are many, many issues other than hijab which need to be covered (excuse the pun).  For example, did ya'll get up for Fajr today ?
NS

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
04/27/01 at 14:43:56
slm sorry..let me clarify. I meant that the hijab cannot be an *exclusive* symbol of how good a muslim the woman is. Like you said at the end of your post there are so many other issues which need to be addressed. hope you understand where I'm coming from wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Kathy
04/27/01 at 16:32:19
slm Interesting thought about the Jewish woman wearing a wig to cover. The other night I was at a single woman Rabbi's house- she has long beautiful hair that most probably is hers. The curious thing was- all over her walls were many pictures of women and girls and in each picture the hair was flowing. Can't wait until our next meeting to see if their is a reason for her pictures.
NS

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
UmmZaid
04/27/01 at 22:10:56
[quote]But among the Jews in a very strange way, they recognise they have to cover their hair, but at the same they like trying to be cleverer then Allah, so what do they do? They put a wig on. They use a wig as a hijab, as that way they cover their hair but at the same time can look like they are showing it.[/quote] I have to say, that not all Orthodox Jews (the only ones who still really keep to the old laws) do this.  There are many, many Orthodox who look down on women who do this, because they say (correctly, IMO), that the wig is often more alluring than the woman's real hair itself.  Other O. women might wear hats (modern O's, like the wig people), or snoods (sort of like those knit caps they have in Egypt), kerchiefs, long scarves.  Some of the more ultra O. sects will only allow their women to wear black, dark blue, or dark brown coverings.  [LOL, just an interesting note, it is the new rage among the ultra O in Isra'il as well as here in NY for the women to wear garments not unlike raincoats, which are decorated for special occasions, available in many colors and fabrics, and which cover them to the mid calf... in other words, they have adopted jilbab!]Other Modern O. women interpret the relevant text as meaning that only a part of their *head* (vs. hair) needs to be covered, so they do this via a headband, a kippah (most O women don't wear these though), or with clips of some sort. >>But the joke is on them, cause wearing a wig on top of hair keeps in a lot of heat, so a lot of them shave their hair and are bald under the wig.<< O. Judaism is a pet subject of mine.  Most of the O. women who wear wigs are not the same ones who shave their hair.  They might cut their real hair short or wear it up under the wig.  The O. women who shave their hair are usually members of the ultra Orthodox sects, usually Chassidic, and they do it b/c of something in the Taurah or Talmud that says that the rafter of the home should never see a woman's hair.  I just read a book about the ultra Os. in Isra'il, and one guy was saying how when he got married to a woman from a less O. sect, he made it a requirement for her to shave her head, b/c he considered the sight of a woman with hair to be repulsive.  For some reason, that just gave me the willies.   >>and a baldhead within their homes to their husbands.<< Some of the ultra O do not uncover their hair, ever, except during mikvah (ghusl), or I guess if it falls off at night or during intimacy.  This comes from the thing about the rafters of the house. >>And why don't people persecute Christian and Jewish people who cover them selves, with the excuse of trying to liberate them from the male dominated need to cover?<< To be fair, ultra Orthodox and modern Orthodox women who do cover are often castigated within the wider Jewish community.  Movies like "A Price Above Rubies," and "Kadosh" mock and denigrate Orthodox women.  Most Jews look down upon and absolutely despise the Orthodox and consider O. women to be totally oppressed and repressed.  The thing is that they tend to keep this stuff within their own community, and would present a united front to the goyim (that's those of us who aren't "chosen"). And as for Christians, the headcovering movement hasn't really caught on with them (yet), so it isn't widespread enough for them to mock and denigrate (yet).

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
05/03/01 at 11:27:01
Aslam walakum I can’t say any thing about how I started wearing hijab, cause I don’t. But this is on how I started praying at the right times. When I was at school I used to do zuher on time cause other people used to and there was a place available for it. I knew others prayed whenever it was time to and where ever they were, but I thought they were better then me. Then: Once upon a time jehad went to a youth club to do Chinese Boxing, the people there were normal people just like him, they were not angelic people, the kind of people jihad assumed were the only people who pray on roads when the time for salat comes. Afterwards jihad and his new friends were walking home and the sky got dark and one of jihads friends said its magrib time, and then all of jihads new friends got in to line and jihad joined them and that was the first time jihad done salat on a public street. Jihad did not tell them and joined the row without hesitation because he felt really embarrassed that this was the first time he did it and he did not want them to suspect. I knew before hand that salat was farrad on the correct time where ever you are, but due to the fact that actions speak louder then words I assumed that no one does so except the people who I regarded as the religious people who were better then me. But these people were normal boys like me, so then I realised the rules are for all people, not just the people I regarded as stronger in the deen. So then I realised that there is a strong possibility that I will obtain the punishments people have been telling me happen when people disobey the laws of their creator.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
05/03/01 at 11:45:05
slm yes yes..brother Jehad...you've made your point. I think we all *know* that Allah will punish us for not obeying the laws he set down for us, but thanks for reminding us again. If you've nothing new to say which is relevant to this thread then we'll leave it there will we? wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
05/03/01 at 12:02:22
[slm] Nice post Jehad!  I would just like to point out a few things: [quote]I knew before hand that salat was farrad on the correct time where ever you are[/quote] And this is how most Muslims are.  Most of us *know* that salah/hijaab are fard.  However, we may not do them because of our weaknesses.   [quote]actions speak louder then words [/quote] Indeed!  And might I add that "softer/kinder words speak louder than louder/harsher words."   [quote]so then I realised [...][/quote] Alhamdulillah!  And I'm sure others will too if you follow the same approach with them which was used on you!  Insha Allah. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Mahmoodah
05/03/01 at 13:46:36
salam, humble muslim i totally agree with u, but about wearin a hijab, that doesnt really show if ur good/bad!!!, here i hav to agree with Eleanor. Neways from wat i know, i think the hijab is fard, i don't think there is many excuses there!!! :-)  Bot the most important thing is that it cumz from ur heart, and is worn for the sake of allah, not 4 sum1 else!!! but do ne of u lot think that a nikab is rafd, coz i havent found nething saying it is a MUST!!! wa-salam

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
05/03/01 at 14:12:57
Asalm mahmoodah, I have said this in another thread. There is a difference of opinion about what constitutes hijab. Some say hijab is the khimar and jilbab. And all that can be shown is face and hands. While others say only eyes can be shown. The reason is that after the verse was revealed, the wives of the prophet and the sahabi covered all except one eye. But there are times like in huj where face was uncovered. The main reason for the difference is to do with classification. The people who say it isn't farrad state that what the wives of the prophet were ordered to do was specific to them and people uncovering during business and huj meant that generally women are allowed to show the face. While the people who say face can not be shown state that what the wives of the prophet were ordered to do was general to all women, and people being allowed to uncover the face during business and huj is specific to business and huj.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Mahmoodah
05/03/01 at 18:19:36
salam bro jehad, yea i know its opinion, i just asked coz recently a bro felt that its fard, i hav herd the ruling b4, but i think that u can only wear a nikab in certain places, in sum place if u wear it ppl would stare. yea i know about hajj, but thanx neways wa-salam

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
bhaloo
05/03/01 at 18:37:03
slm [quote] but do ne of u lot think that a nikab is rafd, coz i havent found nething saying it is a MUST!!! [/quote] I believe we had this discussion on the board already, but Abu Khaled had an excellent article by Sheikh Albani with incredibly detailed proofs showing that niqab is not fard.  The article responded to the people that said it is fard and was very detailed.  The article I think is posted somewhere here.  If not and you want it I think someone can send it to you or re-post it.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
05/03/01 at 19:53:57
[slm] Mahmoodah, the issue of niqaab is a very complex issue!  The scholars have differed on this matter since the time of the Sahaabah themselves (i.e. the difference of opinion between the two Abaads - Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud and Abdullah Ibn Abbas - may Allah be pleased with them both).  There are very strong evidences from both sides.  Shaikh Albaani held the opinion that niqaab is not necessary.  However, Shaikh bin Baz and Shaikh Uthaimeen both held the other opinion, that it was indeed obligatory. Allah knows best.  I think you, as a sister, should try to research this topic from people of knowledge, and make up your mind - and then follow that opinion strictly, without ridiculing or demeaning people who hold the other opinion (a pitfall that many of us fall into when following a particular opinion regarding a matter upon which there is ikhtilaaf). Wassalamu alaikum.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Arsalan
05/03/01 at 19:59:08
Let me clarify one more thing ... As far as I know, and Allah knows best, the ikhtilaaf is regarding the *obligation* of niqaab.  That is, there is a consensus among the scholars that it is not a sin for a woman to wear the niqaab, nor is it disliked.  The majority of the scholars also hold the opinion that wearing the niqaab is *at least* mandub (including Shaykh Albaani). However, once again, the scholars differ on whether or not it is a *sin* for a woman to leave her face and hands open. Perhaps I should also mention this point: from what I have heard from various "students of knowledge" (i.e. people with at most a masters degree from an Islamic University of merit, such as Madinah) - and you should certainly verify this from your own resources - none of the four imaams (i.e. Abu Hanifah, Shaaf'ee, Ahmad, Malik) believed that niqaab was an obligation.  And Allah knows best. Wassalaamu alaikum.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jannah
05/03/01 at 20:26:26
Interesting on how this thread of "Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !" is now doing exactly that!!! ack ppl we've done this before for the 4th or 5th time. let it go now... there is ikhtilaaf khalass... !

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
05/04/01 at 04:58:17
asalm walakum Jannah (GREAT BIG SMILE) Mahmoodah, Men stare, that has nothing to do with nikab, it is to do with the fact that they want to look at some thing nice. they stare at women with mini skirts, hijab and nikab. but with nikab they have very little or nothing at all to see when they stare.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Barr
05/04/01 at 06:18:18
Assalamu'alaikum... I'm sorry.. I don't want to prolong the discussion eitehr. But what Br Jehad said is.. erm.. interesting... [quote] Men stare, that has nothing to do with nikab, it is to do with the fact that they want to look at some thing nice. they stare at women with mini skirts, hijab and nikab. but with nikab they have very little or nothing at all to see when they stare. [/quote] erm... IF staring is excessive & prolonged sight, to fulfil a want/ desire to SEE an object(s), then... how does that justify men who stare at niqabis, with regards to what U have said above? since they can't really see anything, anyways... Just wondering.... wassalam :-)

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
05/04/01 at 06:40:38
asalm walakum, I don't think you meant this but I will just like to clarify first, I am not justifying staring. What I am about to say are not my own thoughts, they are the way most men think. Even if they would never admit it to a women. Men stare more at women who look pretty, ugly women who are wearing next to nothing don't get stared at except in the way you would stare at a strange looking animal at the zoo. Pretty women, even if they are covered get looked at, some times looking is not for the purpose of enjoyment, it is kind of like a chat up line or a sad effort at making a complement. It is a fact that for some reason covered women seem prettier then uncovered, the reason why men approach uncovered women more is due to the fact they assume they are easier. Speaking as a man, I find nikabis prettier then none Nikabis. Even though you can't see any thing, your mind assumes they are really pretty. I remember once I was in a market and there I turned my head and saw a lady carrying a baby, I turned my head back instantly, but her image of beauty has remained in my mind. All I saw was her blue eyes and blond eye brows, and her baby with his blue eyes and blond wavy hair. I think that is why the Syrian Nikab is a square black cloth that covers the whole head, resulting in nothing being visible including the eyes. The women there need it, as they are the prettiest I have ever seen and all the men I have spoken to about this agree with me.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
eleanor
05/04/01 at 13:32:31
slm you seem to be well informed on how pretty which women are, for someone who doesn't justify staring. This is a ridiculous assumption to make, ie. that Syrian women cover completely because they are prettier. A woman is a woman. There is no ayah or hadith that says "Well, ugly women only need to wear hijab, less ugly jilbab, kind of pretty, niqab, and for the really pretty ones, total cover." wasalaam eleanor

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jehad
05/04/01 at 14:05:14
asalm walakum, What you are saying is completely true. I did not mean that by what I said though. Most people I saw there were wearing normal hijab, a few were wearing Syrian nikab (that black cloth that leaves nothing visible), and I saw a hand full of people wearing the Saudi Nikab, eyes visible. But even though I don't look at women, what I did see left a lasting impression in my heart.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Mahmoodah
05/04/01 at 14:48:01
salam, Eleanor i totally agree wit u!!! neways i think women should cover up so that they don't getne attention, but in alot of areas if ur the only nikabi, then it can b very awkward!!!  And ppl do stare I have realised that hijabis also get stared at alot wen walkin down the street!  but this is fard soi u must wear 1!!! wa-salam

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Mona
05/04/01 at 15:40:36
Assalamu alaikum, Someone (admin) please lock this thread and remove some of the later non-sensical posts b4 I have a coronoray.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
jannah
05/04/01 at 15:45:26
Ok the nikabi vs hijab discussion is now officially banned from this message board  because it is a fiqh issue where the scholars differ.

Re: Excessive Focus on Women's Dress !
Saleema
05/04/01 at 17:39:47
[slm] I am locking this thread. [wlm] Saleema
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