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Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Anik
04/26/01 at 21:07:50
asalaamu alaikum all, my parents were and still are on this mission to have a very very learned and intelligent Hindu "social-worker" bring me back to Hinduism so we have these "therapy" sessions once a week the other day he asked, Do you know or believe that Islam is true? And this pertains to the true meaning of KNOW (which is not a severe form of belief) answers anyone? I'll tell you guys how I answered in a bit. Just wondering because I couldn't (not that i didn't believe) have the articulateness or the knowledge to say why I guess religion is like that so do you KNOW or BELIEVE, and if so for either, HOW? darn that's one big BIG thing to ask. asalaamu alaikum.anik,.

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Anik
04/26/01 at 21:11:23
A.A guys, let me give a P.S. to that new thread: I want to se what ppl write (because I guess most muslims will have their basic reasons and arguemnt ssame) and I will tell you how, if I brought up the point, the man tried to contradict me and then I hope bro's an sis' will contrdict that THE REASON I AM ASKING FOR THIS IS SO LEARN TO DEFEND MY FAITH, NOT TO POKE HOLES IN IT. thanks, and Allah forgive me if I am doing something wrong.AA. anik,.

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Saleema
04/26/01 at 22:15:15
[slm] Do you know or believe that Islam is true? Well that certainly is a tough one! I would ask the questioner the same thing about his belief and if he didn't have one then I would ask him does he *believe* that there's no God or does he *know* that there's no God? I *know* Islam is true. Some people *believe* it's ok to have abortion for no good reason because it's just what they *believe* in. And most of these beliefs are based on "it feels right." But are our feelings right all the time? Some people *believe* in infacticide still in some parts of the world. That is something cultural but they *believe* it's right because they don't have bad feelings about it. They *feel* it's the right thing to do sometimes. Like in china. In china females were killed many times upon birth because they were seen as an economic burden. With the advancement of technology abortion has made it easier to kill babies. Female fetuses are aborted far more than male fetuses in China and anywhere else in the world. They *beleive* that with the daughter dies the family name and plus she's an economic burden, the Chinese government imposes restrictions on the number of children one can have so people like to have more sons than daughters. But for obvious reasons their *belief* is wrong which I don't think I need to go into since I think I have made my point. (At least I think I have made it clear.) How do I *know* Islam is right? Well there are so many things i could say. I guess I would start by saying that it makes more sense that there can only be one God and not gods. And there are thousands of arguments for that. Then i would try to present the usual proofs that Muslims give about why islam is the true path. Oh and by the way China's male population is in severe shortage of wives now and marriage is a must in China as is in most Asian countries. You are not looked too well upon if you aren't married by a certain age. In the Houston Chronicle there was an article on this a while back. If you want to know more here's the link. www.chron.com I don't have the exact link for the article so good luck searching for it if you want to find out more. if someone finds it could you please send me an email with the exact link? I'm too lazy to search for it myself. So anyway some people are paying large amounts of money to women in China and other surrounding countries to get married to chinese men. Turly Allah has made everything in balance. When will people learn? [wlm] Saleema

Semantic Sophistry
AbuKhaled
04/27/01 at 09:18:21
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Dear Brother/Sister Anik (sorry, I cannot tell by your name, my apologies), Wa-alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah. Knowingly or unknowingly, your hindu social-worker person is setting up a strawman for you, so *don’t* fall into that trap. In Islam the words ‘ilm [knowledge] and aqeedah [belief] do *not* mean the same as their english equivalents, so for you to answer his questions knowing that he is basing them upon what their english lexical definitions are – as opposed to their shar’a mustahalat [nomenclature] - is highly tenuous. Don’t at all allow yourself to be drawn into such a game, for once you enter, you will find yourself quickly cornered, and it’s worst repercussions might be to dent your conviction in Islam. All you are encountering by such questions is what is known as semantic sophistry. It is a tool used by high-minded non-Muslims who deem themselves clever – and in this case you even know there is an agenda beforehand! – and try to wrongfoot you using sophistry, that is, sophisticated arguments which they know will throw you, confuse you and just mess with your mind. Take it from one who is intimately familiar with such techniques, unless you are able to deal with them, they can quickly ensnare you. I use them sometimes with non-Muslims when faced with arrogance based on ignorance, just to show them that they are not the only ones with such tools in their repertoire. They quickly come unstuck, because they failed to foresee that they are not the only ones who may have studied such methods of argument and reasoning. They - as is often typical - assumed the Muslim was stupid, because you have to be to believe in other than what they do, right? (Irony is that this one is, but he just managed to outwit them on the day ;) ). Examples include those who defiantly puff that one cannot prove the existence of God, or those who treat science as some kind of Sacred Cow, and imagine they can undermine this Noble Deen by virtue of it. It is almost laughably demonstrable how superficial the thinking of such ostensibly sophists actually is, but only when you have acquainted yourself with that which needs to be known in order to deal with such sneakiness. This is nothing to do with myself, but everything to do with the tawfeeq [success] granted by the One who is the Granter of all such things. Our Ennobled Prophet [saw] is reported to have described the Muslim as the one who is sharp, so indeed we should not let such fickle gunfire gain any ounce of credibility in our heads, by engaging such questions. It is only by doing so that one grants them legitimacy in the first place. Kind of like if someone said to you, “Anik, can you name me a big colour?” You would not even entertain searching for an answer. Why? Because the question itself is wrong in the first place! Likewise, when we address the concepts of knowledge and belief in Islam, it is not upon the same footholds as they are meant in the english language, so what is required rather than wandering into such possibly controversial territory, is to learn the Islamic meanings of these terms, and equip ourselves with the *proper* Islamic understandings first, and *then* worry about humouring some feisty mischief makers. It could lead to more harm than benefit were one to try and defend their Islamic belief if they did so without first sufficiently knowing how such a responsible task is undertaken. To be able to do so one first needs to understand their belief, and then to learn how it is defended from the attacks of detractors, and this learning *also* encompasses becoming intimate with *their* arguments, methods and reasoning. I know of some Muslims who *not* having done this, deluded themselves into thinking that they were capable of defending the Truth just on the basis that they are upon it, and thereby exposed themselves to doubt and confusion, a’uzubillah. Yes, sometimes they emerged triumphant, but often not because they possessed intellectual acuity, but rather, because their opponents weren’t actually as proficient as they first imagined themselves to be. In other words, it wasn’t due to their own skill, knowledge or depth, but the weakness in the other. But sooner or later, bolstered by the confident swagger of one who has “defeated” a few non-Muslims in such polemic, they encounter one who is not so easy to overcome, and can not only match them every step of the way, but exceed them in their argument. At this point they leave with doubts about Islam. And it is never worth that, believe me. I learnt the same, perilous way, but it was by the Grace of my Lord (awj) that it didn’t destroy me. It nearly did though. Know that I am completely in tune with the type of question this person is asking you, and where s/he wishes to take this discussion. I chose not to provide you with a (possible) answer, because that would lead to you engaging this person’s questions, and unless you are proficient, you may find yourself out of your depth. That is not to say I exalt myself into arrogantly imagining I am somehow capable of “taking all-comers on,” wal iyadhubillah. No. It is only that I have walked down this road, and so I know where it’s destination lies. What you know and what I may know may be very different. That does not make one of us better or more capable than the other, no, for every achievement is only due to the Favour of our Creator upon us, walhamdulillah. My point is other than this. That, one doesn’t box above their weight and without sufficient training. I tried, and got knocked out, so maybe you might heed a lesson from my experience. Or, you may just be a better boxer. :) But as Lennox Lewis discovered, that doesn’t always guarantee victory. :) So, you may heed my advice, or dismiss it. Either way, I wrote it out of concern for you, for you are of me, and we are of this Ummah, and this Ummah is the Ummah of Sayyidina Rasul’Allah [saw], so we need to tread with a cautious foot, lest we do any kind of disservice to this Deen, and worse, take ourselves out of it due to some polemic that we need never have engaged in in the first place. Forgive me if this disappoints you, or was not what you were looking for. But I will tell you this: that the answer to this question is incredibly simple *when answered from the Islamic standpoint*. However, if one attempts to address it from the paradigm of this pseudo-intelligent social-worker, it can lead to contradictions, and unraveling. If I were you, rather than engage him in his polemic, I would lead him to my paradigm by forcing him to admit the holes in his own concepts about knowledge vis a vis belief. It just requires a few deftly placed questions, and he will be like a fish out of water. In fact it would probably be quite delightful, lol. *evil grin* But I wouldn’t advise that unless you knew what you were doing, and how to go about it, because in such an endeavour, the tables can quickly turn, and the purpose of such an exercise should *never* be just to get one-up on the other, but to – ultimately -  guide them, bi’ithnillah, to Islam. And every blessing is only by Allah (swt), Abu Khaled

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Anik
04/27/01 at 09:37:43
Brother, asalaamu alaikum warahmatullah, I am a brother by the way! thaks for replying see, I could have chosen to abstain from the argument but it turns out that I didn't, and so I had to go with one or the other. But I know, it's like asking "Do you're parents know that you're a monkey? Yes or No answers only" that questions does make an impasse but I still answered because I didn't want to stay quiet and show that I couldn't even start to defend myself, and no, he didn't end up jumping all over me because I think I answered in a way that he wasn't expecting (and actually seemed satisfied) I answered that from an outside perspective, I don't know, but from mine  do. I said I believe, recognizing that we can only do our best. thanks for your response and your care for you muslim brother. asalaamu alaikum. anik,.

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
BrKhalid
04/27/01 at 09:45:22
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Jazakhallah khair for the post Br Abu Khaled Informative stuff as always

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Anik
04/27/01 at 09:51:30
Exactly what I was thinking Br.Khalid...

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
jehad
04/30/01 at 03:36:46
Aslam walakum,   I have read the defence of Hinduism, to keep Hindus from entering Islam, it reads like a joke book. You have nothing to fear from him. Every thing about Islam testifies to its truth and every thing about Hinduism testifies to Islam’s truth. Just ask your self why you left the worship of Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma and took up the worship of the one true God. You have the true religion, The truth needs no defending, a two year old child can show the truth of Islam. him and his false beliefs need skills and knowledge to try and justify it. He should be the one asking for more knowledge. The man will tell you, “you don’t need Islam”, as Hindus worship one true god as well, he will tell you his name is bagwan. You tell him, “if you believe in Bagwan, why don’t you worship him alone? Why do you insist on placing partners in worship with him? He might tell you God is every where so it is O.K to worship Cows, monkeys and the male sexual organ, as God is within them. The stupidity of such a argument is so clear it does not need explanation. The reason why the Islamic aqeeda is true is clear to every sane human being, the reason why we believe in our beloved prophet and the purity of his perfect message is due to the ever lasting miracle Allah has blessed this ummah with. The miracle of the Quran. It is Allah’s spoken word. As it is from the eternal, and it is the words of Our lord, it is impossible for any and all created beings to produce anything that even sounds like it. As no human being can produce some thing like the quran, even one chapter, that means the quran can only be from Allah. As the only qualifications needed to write a chapter that is written in the same stile as a book, is to read the book and know the language. Lodes of people know Arabic and have read the Quran, but every time they try writing a chapter that sounds like it is from the quran, they fail. The Quran tells us Islam is the only deen exceptable to Allah. Tell him even if Hinduism used to be a revealed religion from Allah, it is not today. The Hindu priest have turned it in to paganism, were humans, the people who are made by Allah as his governors of earth, have been reduced to worshipping animals, the creatures that have been created by our lord to serve us. Even if Shiva, Vishnu and ram were prophets sent down by Allah, The religion they have come with has been polluted beyond recognition, and shouldn’t we be worshipping he who created Shiva, Vishnu and ram instead of worshipping the created? Even if Shiva, Vishnu and Ram came with a true message, our prophet Mohammed is Allah’s final messinger, and his message is the one that is for this time. Hindu scriptures speak of a man called Krishna, they say he will come with a universal message for all mankind, and every one will have to follow him. Who fits this picture other then our beloved prophet? If he believes in Hinduism and loves Bagwan, he has to become Muslim, else he is disobeying his scripture. Will he still insist on being blind to the truth, when the word Krishna translated to Arabic is Mohammed? Mohammed and Krishna both translated to English mean ‘praise worthy’. The Hindu scriptures also state the name of Krishna’s mother and father, they translate to the Arabic words Amina and Abdullah. The names of our prophets parents. Will this man continue to be blind to what our religion and his religion are calling him towards? If he refuses to submit to the clear will of Allah, Brahma, yahawah, God or what ever else he wants to call him, and enter the only religion exceptable to our lord, then he deserves the punishment of Allah whose fuel is men stones. The very stones he worships will end up testifying against him.

Re: Semantic Sophistry
MuslimaKanadiyya
04/27/01 at 11:24:37
slm [quote]when we address the concepts of knowledge and belief in Islam, it is not upon the same footholds as they are meant in the english language, so what is required [...]is to learn the Islamic meanings of these terms, and equip ourselves with the *proper* Islamic understandings first [...].[/quote] Bro. Abu Khaled's response intruiges me, as do most of his postings.  Being a new muslim myself, it would greatly benefit me to hear a discussion of the differences between the Islamic and English language concepts of knowledge and belief.  If this has been covered elsewhere, please provide a link to the site. Jazak allah khairan wlm Leslie
NS

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Saleema
04/27/01 at 11:31:05
[slm] In Islam the words ‘ilm [knowledge] and aqeedah [belief] do *not* mean the same as their english equivalents, ahhhhhh....... Didn't realise that. :) It is a tool used by high-minded non-Muslims who deem themselves clever LOl. That is very true. My professor tried to argue with me and I told him "No. Until I become specialized in philosophy I am not going to get into any such arguments because you have an advantage over me with your phd and i haven't gotten mine yet." and equip ourselves with the *proper* Islamic understandings first, and *then* worry about humouring some feisty mischief makers. That's so true! Philosophy professors are all like that. I would love to take philosophy and logic with a Muslim professor... I learnt the same, perilous way, but it was by the Grace of my Lord (awj) that it didn’t destroy me. It nearly did though. Yeah that's so true! I dropped Logic like a hot potato even though i was making very good grades in there. I was wasting my time reading articles on how there is no God and all their arguments and I would go crazy trying to think of something to say that my professor wasn't able to attack. It really tore me up inside. I think my professor's arrogance really got to me more than anything else and I felt that I was letting Islam down. The things you love most are the ones that cause most hurt when someone tries to destroy them for you. I have all these questions and no one around here is able to answer them and so that's why I want to go to an Islamic university and learn, learn and learn! :) But I don't want to go to al-azhar anymore, i'm so dissapointed after i found out some stuff. I don't want to go to any arab country, the environment just seems so suffocating there. I know pakistan has an Islamic unviversity but I don't know if they are good. But I don't want to go there. I mean that's it right? No universities out there besides in these countries? [wlm] Saleema

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Barr
04/29/01 at 10:46:09
[quote] an Islamic university and learn, learn and learn!  But I don't want to go to al-azhar anymore, i'm so dissapointed after i found out some stuff. I don't want to go to any arab country, the environment just seems so suffocating there. I know pakistan has an Islamic unviversity but I don't know if they are good. But I don't want to go there. I mean that's it right? No universities out there besides in these countries? [/quote] Assalamu'alaikum, :) U might like to try this - Institute of Islamic Thought and Civilisation in Malaysia. I hear it's pretty cool, inshaAllah :-) http://www5.jaring.my/istac/

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
chachi
04/30/01 at 18:30:17
Anik something my philosophy lecturer always taught me was to ask the questioner what he meant by the question before attempting to answer it..eg a question like yours you would ask him what his definition of Knowledge is and what his definition of Belief is because you can't answer his question without knowing what he is asking An interesting example of this is the sufi story of when both Hodja and the king mimed to each other both used the correct symbols both believed they were understood and both were talking about different topics! A good question to ask him is this that i posed to my philosophy lecturer..if reincarnation and karma and dharma are followed to their logical conclusion what good acts does a amoeba have to do in order to be reincarnated on a higher level? And does a amoeba experience suffering?

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Saleema
04/30/01 at 18:49:42
[slm] amoeba experience suffering? Oh man.... LOL. I'm on the floor. :D [wlm] Saleema

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
chachi
04/30/01 at 19:13:24
Exactly the situation becomes ridiculous...then again Anik ask the social worker about the 'Asvamedha'...ask him about everything that is supposed to take place and not just the killing of the poor horse...ps don't ask him this when minors are present!

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
pakiprncess
04/30/01 at 19:29:43
asalaam alaikum friends - this is such an interesting topic :) reminded me of something ive read before...here it is: [i]"It ought to be understood why a Muslim is called Muslim? A Muslim is one who says that Islam is true, Hazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) is the Prophet, and the Quran is the heavenly Book. It is implied that he accepts that he will forsake this creed neither in belief, nor in worship, nor in deeds, and that all his sayings and deeds shall be confined within it." - (Ruhani haza'in No. 2, vol. v, p. 163) [/i] i think this is a really great except that goes into knowledge and belief...all knowledge is a form of belief, whether it be justified true belief, spiritual belief, empirical belief, etc. whether the belief is rooted or not is the question. the question you addressed, brother anik, how do you believe, is an easy one to answer. people believe in many things: angels, unicorns, aliens, ufos, and the like. usually this belief stems from a personal experience we've had in our lives, such as 'seeing' an alien, 'feeling' the presence of an angel watching over us, etc. so my belief in one of these things doesnt have to be rationali at all - its a belief and we're all entitled to our own beliefs. as for knowing...thats a completely different story. who else but me knows the agony i suffered when i went on umrah with my hopeful parents, unknowingly suffering from hepatitis a, and unable to walk a step? who else but me knows how i felt sitting in the haram shareef, knelt over, in an eerie state of consciousness in which even i didnt hear my mother anxiously calling for me to get up? who else but me knows how Allah (swt) graciously answered my heartfelt prayers and cured me? ive told many this story, and God-fearing or not, no one can tell me that Allah (swt) wasnt there for me, to push life back into my weak body and to ensure that im where i am today. i know, for a fact, that it wasnt medicine that cured me. because i didnt take anything but throat infection pills. then how on earth did i manage to get through that? how did i manage to survive, when every nerve in my body screamed in pain and begged for the torture to end, so much so that i can barely remember anything other than the kaba from my trip? no no no...no matter what definition of knowledge you use, you cant stop something intrinsic, something true, from being known. and from that day on, i knew; i knew islam was my religion by choice and not by birth, i knew it was me as a human who erred and not the religion that forced my errs, i knew it was the influence of others that made me think my religion was harsh and uncompromising. most importantly, i knew islam was true; that it always had been and always would be, the most true and most pure thing known to man. i guess your hindu associate would laugh at me now, for getting so emotional over such a thing, but its hard to explain. some things in this life are just given...your mom will always love you, you will never know the instant of your death (even suicide victims dont know if itll work the first time around), and you will always pay taxes if you live in the us ;) similarly, you have to know islam is true. if it werent, there wouldnt be hundreds of people converting on a daily basis.... hope i somewhat proved a point by this banter.... wasalaam :)

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
chachi
04/30/01 at 19:49:42
Ruhaini Kazain is so far as i know written by the Qadiani's please do not quote it on this board it contains some totally wacko stuff by that self confessed opium addict who died in his own excrement whilst shouting swear words according to his own father in law... and some peoples parents love is conditional on how much money they provide so thats not true either

Re: Do you KNOW or BELIEVE?
Anik
05/01/01 at 00:15:25
asalaamu alaikum, hey guys, thanks for all your help! well I just want to say that the Hindu gentleman isn't like a villain or something he's not trying to necessarily make me feel small... he is actually warm and friendly, and good-intentioned but misguided I think or at least igonorant to a lot of Islam.  I urge all my borthers and sisters to try to remember to pray for him. asalaamu alaikum. anik,.
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