Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| MuslimaKanadiyya |
| 05/12/01 at 11:39:02 |
| slm Yesterday at jum'ah, the imam's khutbah was about what he termed 'stability in Islam'. He told us that in order to have a stable society, we must avoid all contact with the opposite sex (except for non-mahrams, of course) even to the extent that one should not give da'wah to them or help them if one should see them in difficulty. His example was of a man helping a woman in hijab who is carrying boxes that are too heavy for her: this is wrong, he said, because it might lead to zinna since the shaytan is fooling him into thinking that he is doing something noble. Because of the nature of this example, I don't think that his statement applies to those who face some sort of danger, but I am reading between the lines here, so I cannot be entirely sure that this is what he meant. Allah 'alam. If the man's intentions are good, however, how is this wrong? If he is not helping her so that he can find out where she lives or get her phone number or something, but out of pure generosity of spirit is he still being deceived by shaytan? (And what about her? How is she deceived in this scenario?) The Imam also said that one should never talk to mahram members of the opposite sex, although I can't see how this would be completely avoidable. Personally, I thought that the advice given in this khutbah was impractical, at least, because the imam did not describe any strategies on how to interact in a proper manner with members of the opposite sex when such interactions become necessary. I was a bit perplexed by this ommission, because I thought that it was ok to talk as long as (1) the two are not alone, (2) both are dressed properly, (3) the conversation is not personal in nature and (4) has some purpose to it (i.e. is not just idle conversation). Just so you know, I am not trying to imply that regulating the interaction between unrelated members of the opposite sex is bad in any way; in fact I think that such regulations are necessary and sadly lacking lacking in this society, but I am wondering whether the Iman was overstating the case a little bit. So my question is this: what is the proper 'adab when interacting with a non-mahram, and to what extent are such interactions permissible? Mona, you were there, so perhaps your input would be helpful to me here, especially if I misheard or misinterpreted anything that the imam said. Jazak Allah Khairan wlm Leslie |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| jehad |
| 05/13/01 at 11:51:01 |
| asalm walakum, it depends on circumstances, If i was really attracted to some one, then it would be common sense not to talk to her at all and try to stay away from her. I talk to old ladies about all stuff, cause their is no chance of zina there. i had once been in a class with a very attractive girl, so i never talked to her at all, ************************************. It is true that we should try and avoid contact, thats why in islamic countries every thing is seperated. some contact is allawed, but we have to make sure we are not using missusing the allawances. I mean if there are lodes of girls to give dawa to, how come some guys seem to decide to give dawa to the pretty ones? {edited by me after complaints} |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Kashif |
| 05/12/01 at 12:57:50 |
| assalaamu alaikum I just wonder if the Imam has been raised in the West? What would his advice be to brothers & sisters who work in a mixed environment (i.e. nearly all of us)? Kashif Wa Salaam |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Lisha |
| 05/12/01 at 13:09:50 |
| [quote]asalm walakum, but I do talk to ugly ones when i need to.[/quote] What do u mean to UGLY 1'S{they r girl too u know}, if u lowered ur gaze u would'nt hav known who is pretty n who is not-LOL Ok, if u urgently needed to tell da pretty girls sumthing what would u do???? ne ways i avoid ALL da boys, 'coz ppl spread rumours to quick! And about not helping ppl of the other gender, i personally think it would b ok to help sum1, Wat Would u rather do help sum1 or would u prefer to watch them suffer? :) ok take care wa-salaam |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 05/12/01 at 13:50:07 |
AsalamAlay.com, Peace and e-Greetings be upon Leslie and Bro Jehad too. Well, First off, JEHAD, I'm Sorry. What you typed was just WHACK: [quote]...been in...class with...attractive girl...i never talked to her...but..do talk to ugly ones when i need to.[/quote] Sooooo NOW when we see you talking to sisters, we can assume you think they are in your words, UGLY?? [quote]...there are lodes of girls to give dawa to, how come some guys seem to decide to give dawa to the pretty ones?[/quote] I'm sorry, I think, that is the first ever, STUPID thing I have ever read anywhere on Jannah.org. Jehad, C'mon! You really mean that? -------------- I think Girls should get dawah from OTHER GIRLS. I have always seen that when non-muslim women approach muslim men beyond simply a few basic questions about Islam, the man quickly puts the non-muslim woman IN TOUCH with MUSLIM WOMEN...so they can take it from there. That's what I've learned from pretty much every dawah class I've been involved with. Makes sense. N'est-ce pas? ------------------------ Well, although NOT a student, I went to the SAME JUMAH Qhutbah yesterday at the University of Toronto, Hart House, as Sister Leslie. Although I cannot argue with anything the Khatib said, I can only offer my OWN PERSONAL OPINION and experience: NOTE: this is NOT from any sheikh, Imam, scholar, etc. It's just from Me, Himy. The Khatib reminded us that When there are two people alone, a man and a woman, they are NEVER alone. They are THREE. The third one is Shaytaan. And Shataan keeps whispering whispering whispering until we misbehave. So, never be alone, just like the Khatib said. But about a car? in Public? Or an elevator for 45 seconds? I found that, if I simply OPEN A WINDOW, WIDE OPEN, or keep the DOOR FULLY OPEN, technically, the ROOM is not a room but part of the general outdoors. Door/Window WIDE open, no one of us FEELS alone or private. Hence...I don't get any stupid dumb Shaytaan[i]Ideas[/i] about me and the sister or non-muslim woman in front of me. Since, we're not [i]alone[/i] anymore, Shaytaan disappears. (This has worked for me. I am revealing a personal thing here this 'trick' if you wanna call it that, but I learned it early in my twenties from a...Christian...Billy Graham!) BUT pretty soon, sometimes within seconds, sometimes within tens of minutes, IF the door is closed, ALL car windows fully rolled UP, then...yep...Shaytaan's words sneak into my thoughts and much of what the Khatib said yesterday begins to appear. That's the way we humans are. ...so the window stays OPEN a respectable amount, even in winter, If I am alone with a woman in a car driving. And Jehad, what about all the many muslims who come to the States and here in Canada and work as Taxi Cab Drivers? MANY of the Muslim Cabbies I've met in my life, end up doing a pretty good job of Dawah While Driving with their fares. Billy Graham. The Christian Missionary. Sort of an Ahmed Deedat of American Christians for the Christian Faith has NEVER Been even ACCUSED of any sexual misbehaviour whereas we can practically interchange the word 'tele-evangelist' with 'adulterer' and no one is surprised. Even look at Rev. Jesse Jackson and at his age he fathers a child with his secretary. Perhaps as the Bible does NOT forbid polygamy, He should marry the mother of his young child...but it's really none of my bizness. Billy Graham. His policy since he was a YOUTH was that he CAN NOT be ALONE with ANY woman who is NOT his Wife or Daughter unless there is a third Person present. (Not shaytaan but a human being). So, when Billy Graham has some official business with someone at their home and the man is out but the wife is there, he NEVER accepts the invitation to WAIT inside. Instead, he leaves and returns at a later time when the Man is present. Bro Jehad said: [quote]I talk to old ladies about all stuff, cause their is no chance of zina there.[/quote] Once Caliph Omar(RA) was asked by a man, that he understood why YOUNG muslim women should wear Hijab, but why should OLD Muslim women still need to wear Hijab. There wasn't any potential for Zina, right? Caliph Omar(RA), took the Man outside of the building, and took out an old, scratched up, barely recognizable, single DHIRHAM and threw it in the middle of the road. Think of it like as a scratched up ONE PENNY in today's currency. The man asked Why the Caliph did that? Omar(RA) just told him to wait. And Wait. And they waited. Eventually, yep, IT HAPPENED, someone came by the road, and PICKED UP that single dhirham...and walked away as if nothing wrong had taken place. The man then understood why OLD women wear Hijabs too. Bro Jehad...What if the Old Lady was PRETTY? Would you be talking tto her? ---------------- Sister Leslie, The Khatib hinted at a few things to do: Fer'instance: The Gaze. When you're talking with the Brother, do ya really NEED to KEEP locked in eye contact? Not really. Keep looking at your paperwork, or your books, or where ever. He hinted at only going so far. Say, the Building lobby and NOT up the elevator. The elevator would be the FIRST opportunity of being alone and that's where the Khatib suggested the Shataan whispering starts. So, stop at The lobby. I remember what Imam Ahmad Khutty said here in Toronto a few years and a few Fridays ago at the Nugget Masjid in Scarborough. He gave a very similar in them khutbah as yesterday's at U of T. Imam Ahmad Khutty said, "The First look is yours. The Second is Shaytaan's." Yesterday's Khatib said the same thing but in a different way. [img]http://www.islambank.f2s.com/islaminsidebyhimydotorg.jpg[/img] Sister Leslie/ Bro Jehad, Whaddya think? Your bro in T.O. (toronto ontario) ~ HiMY! ~ |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Mona |
| 05/12/01 at 16:04:50 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Leslie, I think br Himy explained things nicely, and I really can't say it better. I agree with you that the way that the khutbah was delivered made it sound that no man should ever interact with a non-mahrem woman. But of course, imam Shehab didn't exactly mean that. The way I look at it is that we always have to keep intentions in check and be aware of our weaknesses. The imam was right in implying that noble intentions can lead to disasterous results, especially if one tries to rationalize seemingly innocuous acts. It is amazing how the mind can rationalize certain things in moments of weakness. As an aside, I find it extremely befuddling how my mind tries to rationalize the merits of few more minutes of sleep when the alarm goes off at fajr time. I mean I practically dream that I got up, made ablution and prayed in order to be 'tricked' into further sleep [do others exprience this as well ???] But we know that Iblis (shaytan) is unrelentless in tempting us to deviate from the straight path. It is a constant and concerted effort. He picks times when we are most vulnerable to implement his tactics, and it is all a 'mind game' if you will. The imam was reminding us of that, emphasizing the need to never let our guards down, never to have a false sense of security from temptation. Even when one is involved in dawah work, he/she has no immunity from the attempts of shaytan. It is a very scary thought, isn't it. That was his point. I would have liked the imam to have mentioned what our alternatives are, since we do live in a society where interaction with non-mahrems is unavoidable. He sounded that he didn't grow up here, so maybe it wasn't a problem for him in his homeland. While he emphasized lowering our gaze, and rightly so, I think there are many other things that one can do [or avoid] to stay at a safe distance from paths leading to zina. Your understanding of the proper conduct of interaction between brothers and sisters is correct. Yet it seemed intuitive to most in attendance and that is perhaps why he chose not to touch on that. Br. Himy mentioned the psychological effect of opening a window or a door and it is soooo very true. For myself, I always try to 'drag' some sister with me when I need to talk to a brother about MSA stuff, even if the room is full of people. Another trick is that I put on a very serious face - to the point of intimidation sometimes- poor brothers, I hope they don't take it personally. At my lab/university where I have do deal with non-muslims mainly, I find it extremely hard. I am a bit anti-social and try to keep a low profile. Leslie, does this even sound like it makes sense? Wassalam |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Lisha |
| 05/12/01 at 15:57:38 |
| salaam, mona i hav to agree with u br Himy xplained that soo well, Ma-shallah :). take care wa-salaam. |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| BroHanif |
| 05/12/01 at 20:54:31 |
| A.W.W. Ah the old chestnut...Hmm I think it depends upon the person how strong s/he is. I think it really depends on a persons circumstances, for example , a man who has four wives and loves them dottingly is he gonna commit adultery or zina...??? I don't think so . However, here in the UK there are many lads and ladies who are not married, they want to get married but are hindered by their own circumstances, here the oppourtunity for Zina is very high. As there nafs is telling them to do certain illicit actions, the best solution in this case would be to get married or start fasting as soon as possible. Zina is I think 'PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME ON THIS' is like your nafs and shaytaan telling you to go on look at that woman or man and at first it would start in your heart, the desire is aroused, then I think it would be the look, then the smile, then the nod of the face, then the talk, then the promise, then the warmth of the bed. I think this is where things would start to go wrong from your heart, and now even if a person is married and has four wives and fourty children he would still commit zina. What matters most is your heart and the fear of Allah present in it, becuase that would be the first thing that you fear or should fear. Because at the end of the day you only really love your partner for the sake of Allah not for anything else. Likewise if shaytaan and nafs starts to whisper in your heart that oh look at that woman or man, then I guess you should immedialty question your heart that by me looking at this person I am going to upset the greatest love of my life, and thats not my kids or my parther, but that is Allah most high, most gracious. If I look and touch this person will Allah send me to the fire of hell to clean my eyes and will I be able to touch the bounties of Jannah...?? or will I be roasted in the fire of hell.Or if I live in saudi get stoned to death, is it worth it?? a 100 times out of 100 the answer will always be no. As for women and men, all creation of Allah is beautiful so my rule applies to everyone, every woman is attractive/beautiful and deadly to my iman because beauty is not only skin deep, but it lies within the heart as well. Many a time a persons heart can flutter not because of the beauty but the way a person talks and listens to em. Thats why you've got to keep the two boneless wonders safe (the tongue and between the two legs), your heart free from evil thoughts and you've cracked it. And I think you should help old women, the ones who are divorced, widowed, orphans you should help em but have the fear of Allah in your heart. Otherwise if they have no family and they are your neighbour are you gonna disown them since they are muslim women, I would hope not. When I talk to women and its outside work, I lower my gaze and talk very direct, no smiles, no soft words, just get to the point, say it clearly so you don't have to repeat yourself. Most of the time my wife is with me so if there is woman at the shop counter I send my wife over to talk to her and vice versa. I have been known as somebody who keeps quiet but hey thats me and I like that way. As for dawah to sisters well thats a tough one I'd like to hear what other bros do if they need to talk to a sister. Anyway please make dua for me so I'm saved from this grreat fitnah. And Allah knows best Salaam, |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| meraj |
| 05/13/01 at 02:57:20 |
| slm, [quote][img]http://www.islambank.f2s.com/islaminsidebyhimydotorg.jpg[/img][/quote] HAHAHAH!!! thats awesome.. where did you get that himy? ;-D |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 05/13/01 at 12:18:33 |
AsalamAlay.com, Peace and e-Greetings be upon you Meraj, here I AM taking this thread away from the Sister Leslie's query But to answer the question, I was BORED. I kept staring at that the original intel inside jpg. I reflected back in 1992 when I met Br. Vinod Dham. As an Indian Muslim, he's done well for himself and the Ummah. He was PC Magazine's man of the Year back in 1989 If I recall the year properly. He was the Chief Engineer of the Intel 286 and 386 projects. He then skipped the 486 management and went to work on the next THREE of Intel's processors...This was BACK in 1991-2. He had FIVE project managers reporting to him and TWO HUNDRED engineers answering to them. He basically had the final say-so on the design of the then called 586 chips. The 686 which eventually was called the Pentium II. MMX, multi-media extensions was not invented then and added later. and kinda neat just for imagination's sake, Br. Vinod Dham was the Lead Design engineer on the 786 Chip. The 786 Chip, what eventually would become the basis for the pentium III, was already DONE back in 1992!!! But since MS-Windows was still at Version 3.11, Intel had an understanding with Microsoft NOT to release the more advance processors until MS had caught up their Windows OS to the complimentary power of the 686 or 786 chips. That plus the hundreds of millions Intel invested in chip design, they needed to MILK the 386, 486, pentium chip sales to recoup $. So, I'm staring at the logo late Friday night...giggle to myself, open up my graphics program, a few clicks et voila... Just thought it was neat that a MUSLIM help create a good part of Intel's Success. So the ISLAM Inside is an INSIDE joke (just between us muslims) ;). |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Asim |
| 05/13/01 at 13:49:30 |
| wlm [quote]The 786 Chip, what eventually would become the basis for the pentium III, was already DONE back in 1992!!! [/quote] Are you sure? Maybe in theory (and less likely in some simulation) but definitely not something that could have been mass produced. IC technology then was not advanced enough to cram 17 million transistors onto a silicon substrate. |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 05/13/01 at 16:34:15 |
| AA Very well said, Bro, Himy! |
| NS |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Anonymous |
| 05/14/01 at 02:08:48 |
| How does one define an "Ugly girl"? Does ones definition include her physical or inner credentials? How does one look like? What colour eyes, hair, skin does she have? Does she look like a Klingon or just as another fellow human being walking the Earth? |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| Anonymous |
| 05/14/01 at 02:09:16 |
| Wait -- hold up! "The Imam also said that one should never talk to mahram members of the opposite sex," what? so he never talks to his mother? and i'm supposed to take this seriously? |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| jannah |
| 05/14/01 at 02:33:24 |
| [slm] himy good points. jehad once again you've offended alot of people :( i do think you might have meant that if you feel attracted to a certain person you should take the effort to stay away from them because one knows oneself and you don't want to fall into any kind of haram because of weakness. but the whole idea of beauty and ugliness is rather relative and subjective, sometimes even depends on the age one lives in or fashion trends. (ie -- at one time if you were skinny you were extremely unattractive and nowadays the media portrays unnatural skininess as being attractive which of course influences what people see as attractive.) bro hanif brought up some excellent points on how beauty is more than skin deep and how we should really look deeper into the characteristics and heart of a person and sometimes that influences how we see beauty. so the point is if something is so subjective we can't really use it as a basis for shari'ah and say it is ok to talk to ugly girls but not ok to talk to pretty girls.... it's perhaps better to say.. if you feel attracted to someone then try to stay away from them so as not to fall into haram, but regardless of attractive or not you must maintain the islamic distance required for any woman. [quote]asalm walakum, but I do talk to ugly ones when i need to.[/quote] |
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| jehad |
| 05/14/01 at 09:12:44 |
| ASW wr wb jannah i agree i could of reworded it. i did remove the offending passage. |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| jannah |
| 05/14/01 at 09:47:08 |
| wlm jazakallah khair |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| momineqbal |
| 05/14/01 at 12:42:43 |
| [slm], Br. Himy, Vinod Dham a muslim? Thats news to me! Allahu Alim! |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 05/14/01 at 14:19:53 |
| [slm] Just one comment about the original post. It's all about ettiquette and following the proper restrictions, and I would venture to say that if you follow them and someone needs your help you should give it to them. Mind you, I am not talking about any of the "examples" that have been given in previous posts, which deal more with the adab itself rather than situations where one should act. If you see someone carrying a bunch of stuff and they could use some help, if you decide to help them (with the proper adab) then what's the problem? The only problem is in the motivations behind your decision to help, and that is something that all of us need to purify by purifying the soul. That being said, I would like to ask this. If someone was carrying a bunch of boxes with some difficulty, would you not help them if you had the knowledge of the proper adab you would have to employ to carry out such aid? Again, we are not talking about someone in school carrying one book and you go about out of your way offering to help them with their book with a certain motivation (I think I have dated myself with this example, does this still even occur these days?) I ask this because I am reminded of one incident. Apologies for this, but it takes a while to explain. Once during a dinner at the masjid we had to set up some tables and stuff, so the president of the masjid and the imam were telling a few of the brothers to go get the stuff from the sisters area, where it happened to be stored. So I got one other brother to help me and then the two of us went towards the sisters area and got permission from the sisters to enter to get the stuff. Now the other brother didn't realize we would have to go there, and just froze and very angrily refused to get the table. I tried to convince him that we had permission to enter and take out the stuff, but he told me that what I was doing was haram and he left. Now the tables and stuff that needed to be taken out required at least two people to carry, so I was left in a bind. At this point, I see the wife of the president and the wife of the imam in the back of the room motioning and gesturing to me to enter to take the tables. Then this random sister then comes out and starts yelling at me about what I was doing there and even after trying to explain how we had to get the tables and stuff she yelled at me some more and told me to go away. I saw the two wives still gesturing at me to enter and getting looks of confusion as to why I would not come in and get the stuff but the other sister was still yelling at me to go. So I left, sort of bewildered about what had happened, and went to report to the president what had happened and ask him what I was supposed to do. When I found him and was just about to explain, guess who we see, the two wives struggling, carrying the tables by themselves. I don't know what was worse, the looks the two women gave me or the one the president gave me at that moment. And then he starts yellin at me sayin about how I could let the sisters do that and so on. (By this time I gave up trying to explain) Well this incident just leaves a bad taste in my mouth to this day. At what expense must we sacrifice generosity and kindness to others? There is a chivalric ideal in Islam that is purer and nobler than Western chivalry (which was historically derived from the West's contact with Muslim civilization in the Crusader states and al-Andalus), but it is rarely in practice these days, and this comes from both the brothers and sisters side, as represented in the above anecdote. We should persevere in the purification of our hearts, AND perform the external actions (again with the proper adab) of generosity and kindness which are consistent and indeed essential with that same purity of the heart that we are trying to attain. The purity of motivation is paramount, but sometimes the guise of its development is used as an excuse not to help when actual help is needed. Again, we're talking about real help here. What should Safwan ibn Muattal have done? Should he just have left Aisha RA in the desert that night and gone on his way? And Allah knows best... [slm] |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| jehad |
| 05/14/01 at 14:55:42 |
| abdulbashir oh well, who said it is possible to please all of the people all of the time? |
| Re: Does lending a helping hand lead to zinna? |
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| jannah |
| 05/14/01 at 14:36:50 |
| jehad it's not about pleasing people, it's about the proper adab. if one can't say something without offending people don't say it at all because you are just leading people away from islam. |
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