re: Polygyny trial

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re: Polygyny trial
Kashif
05/15/01 at 14:54:13
assalaamu alaikum

I've been reading in the news the story of the man from Utah who is on trial for having committed polygyny.

With American law such that is set by precedent, shouldn't the Muslim organisations in America be (to some extent) showing their support for the right to practise polygyny? Why is there such silence?

If a Mormon who is not following the religion of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam has the courage to stand up for what he believes in to be the truth, why don't the Muslims do likewise? Or will we be chicken and wait for some kaafir to go thru the courts and someday (insha'llah) haev polygyny legalised?

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: re: Polygyny trial
BroHanif
05/15/01 at 15:00:55
A.W.W.

Hmmm, bit personal but I think your right Bro, why don't you ask the sisters first if they would allow their man to have more than one wife. I don't want to get into personalities but my wife has said no second or third or fourth for me. :(. As for UK didn't Jack Straw introduce the law to allow for Polygammy marriges to take place....??? It was witha raft of other issues as well.

What do the other sisters on the board think, I mean will they fight for their man in court to have more than one wife ??? I'd be interested to know the views of Sr Jannah and Sr Saleema and others, as always if I've caused offence or you feel that this is a personal issue and can't be discussed here then please forgive me.

Salaam
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Kashif
05/15/01 at 16:15:23
assalaamu alaikum

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of whether polygyny is restricted for men except in times of war, or famine, or personal like/dislike - we've discussed that before.

But this is the straight case of women who have FULLY consented to their husband having multiple wives and are happy with it.

Lets put it this way (although i dislike this argument): ask any kaafir do you object to two people of the same sex having a relationship when both are consenting? the answer will be "No," (either because they truly believe that, or are afraid of being labelled as politically incorrect or a homophobe).

Then ask: "What is the difference between that case ad the case of a man who has numerous wives when all the wives are consenting to such a relationship?" You will find many non-Muslims stutter at this point - which only reveals their double standards.

Had the man in question not taken a very young girl as his wife, this would have been a very interesting trial, but i'm afraid that his marriage to the youngest one will become the focus of the media's attention and divert attention away from the fact that prosecuting him is against the Constitution of the USA which (supposedly) gives one freedom to practise his/her own religion.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/15/01 at 17:52:20

Kashif i thought that quote was brilliant

he said that some law female law officer asked him
'why don't all you believers in polygamy move to the desert and set up a city'

so he said 'we did, it's called Salt Lake city..and what are YOU doing here?'

   heh heh heh i cracked up
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Magableh
05/15/01 at 19:01:58
Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu.

My personal, yet brief opinion is that I don't have any problem at all with polygamy. I would be a second wife, with no problem, but I don't know about being a *third* wife??? I think marrying 2+'s times is too stressful on everyone involved. I personally know of three sister's who are second wives and they are very happy. I don't think that men should be put on trial for following their religious beliefs, but I don't think they should take it to the extreme either.

Wa'assalam,

Serena
Re: re: Polygyny trial
UmmZaid
05/15/01 at 22:48:07
Salaam 'Alaikum

Bro Hanif:

It isn't about whether or not any sister here or in the U.S. in general *wants* her husband to have #2, #3, or #4, it's about the fact that the laws against religiously sanctioned polygyny violate the First Amendment.  For my husband and I, polygyny doesn't seem like a viable option (wa Allahu 'Alim what the future holds), but does that mean that my sisters (and brothers of course) who are involved in polygyny should be denied their legal rights?  Does that mean that they should be open and vulnerable to arrest and prosecution?  When did the gov't, which is slowly, but surely OK'g homosexual marriages, get the right to tell men and women that they can not enter polygamous relationships?  

Our sisters who are involved in these marriages do not have the legal rights of a legal single wife.  I would fight for these sisters and brothers to have the right to enter a consenting, polygynous marriage, so that the wives and children receive their full, legal benefits and rights.  
Re: re: Polygyny trial
UmmZaid
05/15/01 at 22:48:47
Salaam 'Alaikum

Oh I just noticed I am a Madinah Geek now!  Whoo hoo.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Saleema
05/16/01 at 00:02:36
[slm],

That man has my support! In fact, I will see if there is someway I can write him a letter. You are so right Kashif. People are just too timid and politically correct.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Anonymous
05/16/01 at 15:51:21
Assalaamu alaikum,

 Many Utahns (members of offshoots of the Mormon church) quietly practice
polygamy with no interference from the state authorities. This man is on trial for
statutory rape and criminal non-support of 10 (I think) of his 30 children. Why
on earth would you want to support THAT??
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/16/01 at 19:42:12
Hmm Anonymous didn't say we support him

We said we support polygamy and incidentally why the heck should "people quietly practice polygamy with no interference from the state authorities"?!

because you like the law as it is to support YOUR beliefs..the seperation of church & state means the seperation of the neo-liberal ideology from state as well! if you want a state go away into the middle of the arizona desert and buy it from the natives..

[color=red]Edited by moderator[/color]
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Anonymous
05/17/01 at 14:11:37
Assalaamu alaikum,

 Thank-you, moderator, for editing the previous post...
 
  But, chachi, I really don't understand why you responded so venemously! I've
only been Muslim for two weeks, so I'm obviously ignorant of many things, but I
can't understand what I did wrong. I've been reading this message board for a
long time, and admire the way people usually seem so supportive of one another,
but I've certainly learned my lesson-- I won't write in again!
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/17/01 at 16:06:08
Anonymous,

don't let one person interfere with your understanding and learning of Islam. you will encounter alot of people who do not know how to talk to you or make their point understood in a good, gentle way. do not judge islam by this. it isn't fair. go back to the teachings of the religion. so what you said was correct: muslims do not support child neglect, rape or anything else! and true in islam polygyny is permissible under certain strict conditions.

Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/17/01 at 18:35:47
Wow Anonymous your going to let ME stop you from asking questions?
your going to let my reply stop you from making a comment

man thats incredible! A muslim should NEVER let anyone stop him from expressing his opinion about right and wrong

by doing so you do islam , the ummah , yourself AND me a disservice!

Look at Khalid i respect that guy for standing up for his beliefs! even though i still think he should read that fatwa..*s*

In life akhi/ukhti you will encounter many situations where people disagree with the questions you ask..don't let somebody assume control of your rationality

..by the way it's a bit difficult communicating with somebody called anonymous so forgive me for assuming you were some sort of neo-liberal
pushing your own agenda

i did state in that post that we don't agree with that guy we agree with polygamy...

by the way i still stand by what i said why should people practice polygamy in secret? and why should muslims in america be silent on the subject?..if the hat fits wear it! as shaikh deedat said
Re: re: Polygyny trial
bhaloo
05/17/01 at 21:32:37
slm

Insha'Allah I hope we all on this board remember to use good manners when talking to each other.  It really makes a difference.  So let's all remember to do that in the future, and not use harshness with anyone on the board.  People that come to this board are truly interested in learning and hearing what other Muslims around the world are saying.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Anonymous
05/17/01 at 22:18:26
Assalaamu alaikum,

 Thank-you for your kind comment, Jannah.

 And chachi, please don't take this the wrong way, but you're only digging
youself in deeper, here! Now I'm a bad Muslim, as well as a neo-liberal vulture,
or whatever it was??! (Don't underestimate your power-- violence expressed in
words is still violence.)

 But back to the point at hand: the general consensus of this thread seemed to
be that American Muslims should publicly support this man because, although he
is not Muslim, he is a fellow supporter of polygamy, and public practitioners
of polygamy should be encouraged as a way of bringing about eventual social
change.

  Now, I have no problem with plural marriage in Islam, and I can foresee a
day (admittedly far in the future) when it will be legal in the U.S. as a matter
of religious freedom. But this strikes me as a very bad way of promoting that
cause. Why link Muslims in the public mind with a caricature of plural marriage?
There are already plenty of people (at least in Utah and Idaho) for whom
polygamy is synonymous with Welfare fraud and domestic abuse. If Muslims want to
hasten the day when they can practice polygyny openly in this country, they should
side with the people who do it responsibly (and yes, sometimes that involves
keeping a low profile), not champion someone whose actions seem to contradict
both secular law and Islamic ethics.      

              (sister) Anon.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/17/01 at 22:23:24
good point sister anonymous. muslims already have a bad image and this would make it worse because no one knows the details of how polygyny works in islam. this is not to say we don't support it, we do, but let's talk public relations because muslims don't have any...  the same idea goes for things like mike tyson.. should we support him? he says he's our muslim brother?  in theory as individuals we should, just as we would for any muslim, but as organizations and groups we don't support his unislamic behavior so should not link ourselves with him...
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Saleema
05/18/01 at 00:19:45
[slm]

good point sister anonymous. muslims already have a bad image and this would make it worse because no one knows the details of how polygyny works in islam.


Muslims have a bad image about everything. And what did we do about that? We stood up firm behind those ideals and explained to the people. Despite our efforts, still the public is ignorant about Islam and refuse to believe when we tell them how Islam really is. We might as well then keep Islam to ourselves. If we can say that we have good public relations when it comes to other tenants of Islam, why can't we put the same effort behind this when it comes to polygany?

The US in the future isn't going to just hand over our rights to practice polygany if one choses to, we will have to fight for it. We will have to ask, demand it. And we will encounter the same back lash as we will now.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Saleema
05/18/01 at 00:33:36
[slm]

Why link Muslims in the public mind with a caricature of plural marriage? There are already plenty of people (at least in Utah and Idaho) for whom polygamy is synonymous with Welfare fraud and domestic abuse. If Muslims want to hasten the day when they can practice polygyny openly in this country, they should
side with the people who do it responsibly (and yes, sometimes that involves keeping a low profile), not champion someone whose actions seem to contradict both secular law and Islamic ethics.


There are many people who already link the Muslims with mutliple marriages. And their linking is negative thinking. And what's wrong with changing that negative thinking into one of positiveness? Welfare fraud and domestic abuse happens in monogamous marriages too. That's why we need to educate the people like we are trying to do with other things that are related to Islam.

How can the Muslims side with those people who practice polygany responsibly when it's done underground? How will underground support champion responsile polygany practices?  No one is championing anyone's bad ethics.  When Kashif brought up the subject he was trying to make the point that a non-Muslim has the guts to stand up against so many odds but Muslims want to put it off for as long as they can so that they will be comfortable in public life without having people assume abusrd things about Islam and Muslims and harrassing them over it.

Definately there are more important things right now that need priority in Islam than polygany, but we shouldn't put it at the back burner either.

And by the way, welcome to the faith sister.  :)

[wlm]
Saleema




     

       
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/18/01 at 01:22:57
Those are valid points Saleema, but imagine if we stood up and said we support this man. ONLY if we can actually and clearly have it known that we support only the idea of polygyny under restrictions should we do it. otherwise people may have the wrong idea of what muslims are actually supporting? Now there's the thing do you think the muslim community can actually send this exact message to the media?

Let's take the Mike Tyson example. Only if we can clearly get to our audience the message that we don't support his behavior, we only support him because he's our brother in islam, should we support him. But is this possible?  The media right now can't even distinguish terrorists from normal muslims would they be able to make this distinction for us to the mass public?  Doubtful.

If we're not at the level of being able to dictate to the media what comes across I'd be very careful with it, only for that reason like sister anonymous and others may wonder why the heck are muslims supporting child neglect etc?

so we can talk all we want about standing up for islam and saying what's right blah blah... but a true public relation specialist knows better. we are not hiding what we believe or compromising we are just being smart about it so we can build up the levels in what the mass public sees, until we can finally one day be at the level of making blanket statements and expecting everyone to know what it means.

i would even contend that this is one of the reasons why Islam is so misunderstood in this country. people who don't know any better just stand up and start speaking for islam and all the exceptions etc business doesn't come across because the general public is just so ignorant from the beginning about islam. thus the link to bad things and islam continues to be established in their minds.

Re: re: Polygyny trial
BrKhalid
05/18/01 at 05:24:04
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

This thread certainly started to make me think whether we need a Muslim spin doctor in our midst?

For those of you in the UK, you'll know who I mean when I say Peter Mandelson and Alastair Campbell and whatever you think about them as people, there's no doubting that when it comes to getting their message across, these guys are top notch.

Spin doctors and sound bytes came across here to the UK from the US political system. Party managers realised that news items on TV were of only limited duration and hence if they wanted to get their message across to the nation on the nightly news, they would have to come up with a short and easy message which the TV companies could run with.

Now turning to Islam, say we get an Imam to represent the Islamic view on polygamy. If the interview lasts an hour and an hour will be shown, then he will be able to go into all the details and clearly explain the issue without creating any misapprehensions. But if only a 20 sec sound byte is going to be aired, what do you think the media are going to present? What is going to be headline news in their eyes?

I go back to my saying that we need to interact not integrate. If the masses can only absorb 20 secs of information at night, then why as Muslims should we not play the game? Why can't we give our sound bytes and then go into details when we have more time and can further explain what we mean.


I mean how responsible is it for a Muslim to say on TV that Islam allows up to four wives and then *not* explain the conditions necessary for that to happen? It’s the equivalent of a PR nightmare!!! You've made a statement and left the public, potentially, with completely the wrong impression.

If you've get limited time, why not say Islam caters for all circumstances and for all times and leave it at that and state that polygamy is one example of this. Make the public think and more importantly make them want more and definitely don't allow them to make their minds up before you've been able to impart all the necessary information to them.

For me, I can't see how the above is inconsistent with what Allah says in the Qu'ran:

[color=Blue]Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching;and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance (Quran 16:125) [/color]


And Allah knows best
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/19/01 at 16:11:52

ok since my previous post was deleted
let me put this point in basic terms

kashif is right
we should state we support polygamy
because we do
otherwise we are covering up the truth and we know the word for that

because 30,000 people in utah hide the fact that they commit
polygamy and the usa government can thus avoid the issue
and continue to ban polygamy
means WE should take a stand!
jannah seems to suggest that we should do as they do!

the media are interested in sensationalism
so give it to them
and they'll give you airtime to broadcast your views

in for a penny in for a pound
khalid if you've ever listened to Talk radio
you'll know that is exactly what Omar Bakri
did..he goes on tv says the most controversial things
and then he gets a full hour on talk radio and
the listeners end up supporting him

khalid never try to explain with a soundbite!
the whole point is to let people
puzzled angry ...so they want to find out more!
then you explain!

Re: re: Polygyny trial
BrKhalid
05/19/01 at 18:59:10
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

First of all forgive me Br Kashif if this thread has been hijacked into one about PR spin but I wanted to make just one more point.

[quote]he goes on tv says the most controversial things
and then he gets a full hour on talk radio and
the listeners end up supporting him[/quote]


On the face of it Br wahid it seems ok, but who knows for sure how many listeners don't bother making it back for the one hour show because they've been turned off by the brief portrayal of Islam???


[quote]the whole point is to let people
puzzled angry ...so they want to find out more!
then you explain![/quote]

I would respectfully disagree.

Leaving them puzzled and confused would be the way to leave things such that they yearn for more information to satisfy their curiousity. Why risk making people angry and potentially alienating them from Islam even more???


At this point I wonder how many of us have given dawah and have experienced that if you say something to upset someone (whether intentionally or more likely unintentionally), you have to work twice as hard to get them back?

To me it just seems the wrong way of going about things.

Oops I just realised I actually made two points here!!

*even more apologising* ;-)
Re: re: Polygyny trial
bhaloo
05/19/01 at 22:20:32
slm

I agree with Br. Khalid on the point about saying something controversial and leaving the listener, "puzzled angry".  What happens if the people are so angry that they don't want to listen to anymore?  And I have seen this happen, because of one statement, they got so angry they refused to hear anything more on the topic or listen to that person again.  
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/20/01 at 20:12:25
[quote] because 30,000 people in utah hide the fact that they commit
polygamy and the usa government can thus avoid the issue
and continue to ban polygamy
means WE should take a stand!
jannah seems to suggest that we should do as they do!
[/quote]

i'm not sure what this means. are you saying i support them hiding polygamy or that i support hiding the issue or that i support banning polygamy??????

if you go back and actually read what i wrote, i am not saying any of that nor am i talking about this topic in general, nor did i say don't take a stand. i'm saying do it in the right way -- a way that would cause less harm to muslims than more harm and in this particular case publically speaking out as a muslim/muslim organization supporting this man may lead to more harm so we should definitely weigh that carefully.

ps if a post is removed it is because it is in violation of the rules, not because someone didn't agree with it and you are notified why.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Anonymous
05/20/01 at 22:15:51
assalaamu aleikum

i'd be exceedingly careful about standing up in support of mormon polygynous
marriages. why? because they are a completely different matter than islamic ones.
they have no limit on the number of wives, for one thing, and you OFTEN find
that young girls are coerced into marrying older men, the family lives all in one
house together, and furthermore, that many of the wives are close relatives
(sisters or mother/daughter). this is NOT islam and there is no reason to rally
behind this mormon guy -- he is doing things that are haram.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Saleema
05/20/01 at 23:00:01
[slm]

Where do mormons get the idea that they can marry two sisters at at time??! I have never come across that in the Bible. Or if i have, i completely missed it. Does anyone know? Please, i would appreciate it.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Arsalan
05/20/01 at 23:04:42
[slm]

The Mormons don't believe in the "Bible."  Their holy book is "The Book of Mormon", a completely different scripture.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Saleema
05/20/01 at 23:06:20
[slm]

Oh yeah, that's right. I have that too. Never bothered to read it.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: re: Polygyny trial
eleanor
05/21/01 at 07:45:12
Polygamy was never banned. Never. It was only when the holy Qur'an was revealed that there was a limit put to the number of wives. Many Christians don't realise that polygamy was banned by some bishop or cardinal long long after the Gospel was revealed. Allah never forbade it, in any book.

wasalaam
eleanor
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/22/01 at 19:33:18

Wow good response!

certainly left you lot puzzled angry..

ok example i say islam says nobody should pay income tax
result all the people pro welfare are angry

answer when i'm on the show i tell them about zakat..

hmm jannah must have misunderstood you..

once again can somebody show me ONE place where i've said i support this man?...ok i'll pass them a copy of several good islamic books if they can..the last lot are lying on the bookshelf of some guy who works for Q-NEWS...lol

I think the number of people who are polygamous in america is upwards of 100,000 and the reason why the government hasn't prosecuted them is because when it last did a few decades ago it realised that a LOT of people would end up in jail..which is why i say we should make a stand

i mean muslims oppose abortion and they have no probs working with catholics even though we disagree with the child abuse etc in the catholic clergy

it begins there is no god (controversial!)
but allah
Re: re: Polygyny trial
Kashif
05/22/01 at 23:36:01
[quote]in for a penny in for a pound
khalid if you've ever listened to Talk radio
you'll know that is exactly what Omar Bakri
did..he goes on tv says the most controversial things
and then he gets a full hour on talk radio and
the listeners end up supporting him[/quote]
assalaamu alaikum

With all due respect, i don't think that this is a good policy to follow. I've seen Omar Bakri on TV numerous times and every time i have, i think he's done an extremely bad job of representing Islam, Muslims & himself, whether that was in the program "Tottenham Ayatollah" or otherwise.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/23/01 at 00:16:54
hmm the media world is all about soundbytes... do you think those people who heard what whoever said will automatically then go listen to his show??? and even if they do who except regular or very interested people will actually listen to the entire hour show?  so out of say 1,000 people that originally heard the controversial stuff he said.. maybe 100 actually get the true message???? in the meantime stereotypes and everything else against islam is continuously perpetuated to the majority of the viewing public .
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/23/01 at 07:27:15

[quote]hmm the media world is all about soundbytes... do you think those people who heard what whoever said will automatically then go listen to his show??? and even if they do who except regular or very interested people will actually listen to the entire hour show?  so out of say 1,000 people that originally heard the controversial stuff he said.. maybe 100 actually get the true message???? in the meantime stereotypes and everything else against islam is continuously perpetuated to the  majority of the viewing public .[/quote]

Salaam

    errm the people who can't be bothered to listen to an hour long show or take time out to consider something that concerns them are hardly likely to go to the masjid...or read the qu'ran ..in fact these people having the attention spans of a gnat will forget everything about islam the next day..islam is for those who are not heedless...


    and regarding stereotypes your not going to get rid of a stereotype of islam by giving a soundbite anyway....and most intelligent non-muslims i've met don't really believe everything they've seen on tv...

Re: re: Polygyny trial
Barr
05/23/01 at 08:03:38
Assalamu'alaikum :-)

[quote]With American law such that is set by precedent, shouldn't the Muslim organisations in America be (to some extent) showing their support for the right to practise polygyny? Why is there such silence?[/quote]

Just wondering... are Muslims only characterised as reactionary to every issue that arises? That, I think would only make us very issue-centric, and cause us to lose our focus rather than looking at things at a macro-level then, organise it out.

Plus...Do silence equate inactivity?

I'm not saying that giving rights for sisters and their families in polygyneous marriages should be discounted... but I think, an overall framework that invloves relevant Muslim organisations  should be drawn out on how to tackle the issue, rather having mere... erm... shout-outs when such similar issues are being brought up in the media.

coz, I feel that these issues... whether is polygyneous marriages, homosexuality, racism, terrorism, misrepresentation of Islam etc etc etc, will periodically surface, and resurface in the media.

Of course, it'll be good if we can champion and make polygyneous marriages legal in the US, but what is the REAL problem and the more major problem that the US is facing? I think those of us in Muslim organisations should be the ones to discuss this, prioritise, what is important/ urgent vis-a-vis what the Muslim society needs and work it out within our means.

I think, sometimes, issues that come out from the media may be an impetus for us to carry out our agenda, but let there be already a laid out strategy, rather than charging forth only when the issue comes up....

[quote]i mean muslims oppose abortion and they have no probs working with catholics even though we disagree with the child abuse etc in the catholic clergy[/quote]

I think I would have to agree with Br Wahid.... the Mormons could be one of our [i]"Abu Talibs"[/i]. But as mentioned aforehand... this doesn't mean, that we react to the newspaper article, or we show support to the particular individual who is also charged of non support for his children... But we actually strategise how to lift
the illegality of polygyny.

Hence, results of our efforts... well, let Allah decide when that time would be.... and eventhough it may be lifted due to the efforts of a non-muslim... so let it be... at least we have made efforts... and alhamdulillah, such would only make our jobs easier, so that we can concentrate on other stuff, inshaAllah.

Just suggestions... I may be wrong.

wallahua'lam
Re: re: Polygyny trial
BrKhalid
05/23/01 at 09:38:37
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]errm the people who can't be bothered to listen to an hour long show or take time out to consider something that concerns them are hardly likely to go to the masjid...or read the qu'ran ..[/quote]

Probably not, but does that mean we don't preach to them?

Are they more or less likely "to go to the masjid….or read the Qu'ran…" by hearing Islam in a negative context?

I can't stress the point enough that if you alienate someone to begin with, then it becomes doubly hard to get them back and it requires so much more effort.

Isn't one of Hamza Yusuf's quotes something along the lines of its easy to destroy things but harder to build them in the first place.


[quote] and regarding stereotypes your not going to get rid of a stereotype of Islam by giving a soundbite[/quote]


Again, probably not, but you sure can reinforce a negative stereotype with a sound byte.


[quote] anyway....and most intelligent non-muslims i've met don't really believe everything they've seen on tv... [/quote]


But what about the so-called "non-intelligent non-muslims"? How much of an impact does TV have on their lives? Where do these people get the majority of their information on Islam?


Br wahid forgive me if any of the above sounds a touch harsh. I'm sure you realise that I'm just making observations on the arguments you've raised and nothing more.


[quote]Just wondering... are Muslims only characterised as reactionary to every issue that arises? That, I think would only make us very issue-centric, and cause us to lose our focus rather than looking at things at a macro-level then, organise it out.

I think, sometimes, issues that come out from the media may be an impetus for us to carry out our agenda, but let there be already a laid out strategy, rather than charging forth only when the issue comes up.... [/quote]


Sr Barr I know there are brothers and sisters in the UK trying to develop a fully blown Muslim think-tank to design and co-ordinate a macro Muslim strategy as you call it.


We need to start pushing our views and concerns across so that the non Muslims of today can become aware of this religion of ours and feel sufficiently moved such that, InshaAllah, they become the Muslims of tomorrow


Finally I have a question for the US brothers and sisters.

We always hear about the power of the Jewish lobby over in the US but what about the Muslim lobby? Is there one? How powerful is it?
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/23/01 at 14:07:50

Hmm ok nearly all this stuff seems to centre about how bad a person this guy is and persoanlly i'm ashamed to admit i didn't even question whether the stuff about this guy was true ok so i was pretty shocked when i read that the guy DIDN'T want to abandon his kids

he married the women and then divorced them under us law (presumably because he wanted to make sure his kids were not called bastards etc which i ibelieve the mormons take very seriously)

this wasn't enough for the us government because it said he was still living with these women..so lets get this straight if your a hippy it's ok if you believe in god it's not...

and lastly the reason why the guy is having problems is because he is forced like most of these polygamists to live OUTSIDE the city itself so has difficulty getting a job not to mention one of his kids is severely disabled

and lastly can i ask have any muslims watched the recent program about how muslim families from africa living in france are being FORCED to live apart (the ferengi actually have a police squad that checks their houses and clothes food etc) to make SURE they are not polygamous !!!

 can i just point out that muslims have a word for somebody who is HARSH on the muslim and easy on the kaffir ...and that is KHWAARIJ...the khwaarij were notorious for engaging in this practice

  but equally the argument can be applied another way should we deny the right of polygamy of a non-muslim because he does something bad?...i think we should show some insaaf in this situation

  khalid ...have you received a reply from hamza yusuf about the hadith concerning  the blue hats and also the fatwa counter-signed by bin baaz in the book 'Defending the muslim Lands...can you also ask what hamza yusuf thinks of muslims fighting in a UN force ....jazakallah akhi looking forward to your response

  i think Barr makes a important point we should ACT and not Respond to events or better yet we should prepare for eventualities...because one day the polygamy issue WILL be used against the muslims..as soon as the government has cowed everybody else into silence

 remember the prophet stood on a mountain and shouted out his message DESPITE people thinking he was mad for expressing such opinions. ...they were worried they would lose money from the pilgrims who visited mecca

 
Re: re: Polygyny trial
jannah
05/23/01 at 14:40:20
In one of the battles Umar wanted to kill some of the one's who went against Islam, but the prophet [saw] said  no i don't want the people to think Muhammad is killing his followers.

So what does this tell us... should we do something and heedlessly forget all consequences? or should we carefully weigh the pros and cons???

we do not compromise islam in any way.. the question here is the WAY in which we do it. and didn't Allah tell us to invite others to Islam with WISDOM and in a good way?  

so do we follow the example of our prophet [saw] and Allahs commands? or does one want to make up their own brash way to do things hurting the ummah at large?
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/23/01 at 16:18:09

hmm in what way am i disobeying the prophet when i say something the person BELIEVES is controversial?..have you read ANY of hodja's tales?..who is the true idiot in those tales?

have you read my post on how to spread islam using junkmail?

i think muslims have to adopt their tactics to take account of changing weapons in the past the kaffir used poetry to make fun of the prophet and islam ..can you tell me did or did not the prophet
allow a sahaabi to lampoon the kaafirs in poetry?

if the media outsmart themselves by giving muslims airtime then hey your not going to see ME complaining



Re: re: Polygyny trial
AbdulBasir
05/23/01 at 16:50:02
[quote]
what about the Muslim lobby? Is there one? How powerful is it?
[/quote]

Muslim lobby? In the US? HAHA ;-D

oh man sorry that's not funny...

seriously, the Muslim "lobby" in the US is really in a stage of infancy; it is just beginning to crawl...the past presidential election was one of its biggest stepping stones thus far, not so much in who or what they supported but rather due to the fact that Muslims voted as a bloc (relatively speaking, about 3/4)

There is a REAL LONG way to go...

And back to the discussion at hand...
[slm]
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/23/01 at 16:56:50

AbdulBasir..*s*

but seriously it's a question of business and votes

so your lobby needs to be part of business life in usa
as well as having some votes

consider that the zionist lobby consists of 10 -15 million jewish votes (the majority of whom will vote zionist though not all ) and on top they have a televangelist x-tian lobby running into the millions composed of people who believe that they can do every evil act under the sun but if they buy flechettes and tank rounds to blow up kids in palestine they will go to heaven
Re: re: Polygyny trial
BrKhalid
05/23/01 at 19:33:43
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]khalid ...have you received a reply from hamza yusuf about the hadith concerning  the blue hats and also the fatwa counter-signed by bin baaz in the book 'Defending the muslim Lands...can you also ask what hamza yusuf thinks of muslims fighting in a UN force ....jazakallah akhi looking forward to your response[/quote]


*holds up hands*

Not me guv ;-)


Br wahid I think you were having that conversation with someone else.
Re: re: Polygyny trial
chachi
05/23/01 at 19:54:58

hmm sorry brov

sheesh now i'll have to work out the level of compensation

hmm ..is that 'kemp and kemp on quantum?'

ok where is he let me at him...just thought it was rather strange you quoting hamza yusuf without quoting me the hadith....couldn't resist that dig.. mistaken id what?


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