Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Manhood Misplaced? |
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| Barr |
| 05/27/01 at 02:52:13 |
| Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullah, Dear brothers... OK, I need some enlightenment on what brothers think in this area, inshaAllah. :) And if any of you prying sisters wanna piece of the sharing... you're most welcome to :) Well, the recent census showed that the highest proportion of singles in Singapore are the low-educated men. But in the Muslim community, it's our graduate Muslimahs. Followed by Muslimahs who graduated in Polytechnics/ A-levels and then, followed closely by the low-educated men (eg.primary school). Though further research has yet to be done on the trends of singlehood here (inshaALlah soon!:))... We're working on the premise that brothers feel... err... [i]intimidated[/i], perhaps also, feel that he is not up to a certain standard, or some issues of self esteem? I don't know... but apparently, if you're a graduate, and you're female... chances of you not getting married is... very very high. The statistics showed that men do prefer to marry someone who is of a lower education level than him. And comparing the Muslim community to the non Muslim ones, a very small percentage of our brothers (including our graduate brothers) are actually marrying a sister who is on par with him or higher, whereas abt 70% of non Muslim graduates marry those who are on par educationally. OK... so much for background. One researcher quoted that the definition of manhood needs to be reviewed... is it truly in the education level, and hence, the amount of money one brings home for the family, that defines manhood? He also mentioned some other stuff... But my question is... what is your definition of manhood? Would you marry someone who has a higher education than you? What are the possible reservations for those who do not want to? And other comments that springs to mind. Please use the anonymous link if U wish. Ur thoughts are important. I would really appreciate anything you'd like to share. Sorry for being a bit long winded. But inshaALlah, this would be useful for my work. Jazakallah :-) |
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| nehar |
| 05/28/01 at 15:39:38 |
| [slm] plz no one get offended by me, and if u r offened, i apoligise in advance. I persoanlly wudn't marry or want 2 marry a guy who is less educated than me. Because it is a easy way to look down and break a marriage, a husband should be someone you can look up 2, not down. I believe for a successful marriage there has got 2 be respect, esp the wife. But when i say eduacted, i mean islamically, and acedemically more educated. Also once your married many guys dont let u study further, dunno y though. i know its kinda worldy things, but thats how i feel. also me not makin sense [wlm] Nehar |
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| Barr |
| 05/28/01 at 01:52:51 |
| Assalamu'alaikum... well.. hence the question... is manhood placed at his level of education... albeit revealed knowledge or acquired knowledge. Would a husband be respected only by the level of his paper qualifications? Would that influence the kind of man he is? what would then, constitute manhood? Each of us are shaped by our knowledge and experience... let's share and discuss :) wallahu a'lam :-) |
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| Kathy |
| 05/28/01 at 11:06:59 |
| slm Good topic Barr. I would be interested in hearing a guys definition of manhood. I wonder how different it would be from a woman's viewpoint. |
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| abdulsamad |
| 05/28/01 at 13:51:06 |
Assalamu Alaikum, I would probably marry a girl who was less educated than me or even equally educated. Regarding manhood, I think true manhood is reached upon mastery of one's nafs and temper. To have the ability to curb one's temper is to possess an admirable and rewarding trait. ;-) Wassalam |
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| BrKhalid |
| 05/28/01 at 15:14:05 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]The statistics showed that men do prefer to marry someone who is of a lower education level than him[/quote] Hmmm..this is a thought provoking topic and I wish I had more time to go in detail but for the moment I just want to make one observation. If the statistics show graduate Muslimahs being the most likely to remain single, doesn't this reflect on their preferences as well? Basically do these sisters prefer to marry someone who is on a par or higher than them? I know this thread is about Manhood but isn't there a chance there is an element of "Womanhood" here too? Just making a point for discussion (just in case the sisters get the wrong idea! ;-) ) InshaAllah I'll write more when I get the time |
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| Saleema |
| 05/28/01 at 22:28:48 |
| would probably marry a girl who was less educated than me or even equally educated. Regarding manhood, I think true manhood is reached upon mastery of one's nafs and temper. To have the ability to curb one's temper is to possess an admirable and rewarding trait Why would you not marry someone more educated than you? what's the reason behind that? Anything to do with manhood? :) You don't have to answer if you don't want to. Again, if that's the definition of manhood then why wouldn't you want to marry someone more educated than you? My preferance is that a man should at least have a bachelors. i wouldn't care that i was more educated. but i would make sure that it wasn't a problem for the guy, that he wouuldnt' feel inferior. because that doens't necessarly show inferiority in any way whatsoever. One thing that I would like in a husband is that he would be willing to pursue islamic knowledge for his benefit and mine and for our children's benefit. [wlm] Saleema |
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| abdulsamad |
| 05/29/01 at 07:38:29 |
| slm, I just think that it is better for the amir of the family to be the best educated. Also there's the respect factor, like sis nehar mentioned. wlm |
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| Laboogie |
| 05/29/01 at 11:45:24 |
| [slm] [quote]I believe for a successful marriage there has got 2 be respect, esp the wife.[/quote] Can you please elaborate...what do you mean by this esp the wife? I don't want to misread your comment. Thanks |
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| jehad |
| 05/29/01 at 11:56:15 |
| I think not many people are going to like this, but it is how things are, at least from my observation. I am not advocating what I am writing, but it is how most people think, even if they don't like admitting it. Men are attracted to pretty young girls, women who chase after a carrier often loss their looks by the time they decide to settle down, so can't compete well with young girls. Men are not interested in how educated a girl is, even if they state this, if they see a pretty young thing they will forget all about how educated she is. Men are not looking for a provider, they intend to be the provider. Education is completely irrelevant to the man. He is looking for a wife. Some one who knows how to cook, clean, look after children and able to have children, and most of all look nice for him. And it is a fact that a Polymer Engineering degree does not help in changing nappies, and a degree in Computer systems does not mean she will be able to cook nicer food. High education may even be a hindrance, as men think that she has been busy chasing a carrier so may be she would be too proud to stay at home and cook and clean for him, especially if she has a better job then him. Her being educated is not what men are scared of and does not effect his manhood, what would effect his manhood is if he is the one who stays at home and she becomes the provider. There is a factor you have missed out, which is the lady's dad. Muslims in Singapore follow shafi fiqu, they consider that the Muhram's consent is compulsory in marriage and most women who follow other schools will still obey their father if he refuses permission. The father who encourages his daughter in to education even though often this results in her sacrificing her youth in the endeavour, often over respects education and looks down on the "uneducated", so he turn away men who he regards as uneducated even if they can easily provide for her. For some reason he has confused education with the ability to provide, even though they are clearly unconnected. |
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| jannah |
| 05/29/01 at 12:43:54 |
| so jehad are you saying that men are only looking for: [quote]"Some one who knows how to cook, clean, look after children and able to have children, and most of all look nice for him. "[/quote] thats interesting because if so that isn't very islamic is it? the prophet [saw] knew how to cook and clean and look after himself and it seems like he married khadija 15 years HIS SENIOR not for her looks or ability to have children because if your theory is correct why did he not marry someone much younger. also i wonder why you say: [quote]he has confused education with the ability to provide, even though they are clearly unconnected. [/quote] education level has clearly been shown to be correlated to income and "quality of life". if you have less than a high school education there are only certain types of jobs and salaries you will be able to get versus someone who has an MBA. i'm sure some fathers are worried about how their future son in law can provide for the family so this may be a factor...although the prophet [saw] said that fathers should marry their daughters to the one's who's deen and akhlaq please him. |
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| jehad |
| 05/29/01 at 13:02:19 |
| yep jannah that's what I am saying. I might not be advocating that, but that is what I am saying. Islamic men want takwah as well, and above what I have listed. But the problem with takwah is it is inside the heart and we can't see it, or compare the takwah of two different people well. when a man sees a girl, he does not think to him self "waw look at the takwah on that". Islamic people who want to look for Islamic characteristics usually just compare what is apparent. Example: Does she cover? Once they have that, then they look for the stuff I mentioned above. I don't think any Men are interested in the level of secular education the girl has, and even the men who say they do, don't really mean it(a lot of men I have spoken to have said they are interested in education, when I spoke to them further, they always say they did not really mean it, what they meant was they wanted some one who could read. |
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| momineqbal |
| 05/29/01 at 13:50:21 |
| [slm], I wouldn't have problems with marrying a girl who is more educated than me. But, what is your definition of being more educated? I don't really consider the university degree levels as the only parameter for measuring level of education, although it is one of the parameters. A lesser degree in some field might be more education to me than a Phd in some other field. So I would like to know what is her education in, and not just the letters of her degree. I for one have been a different person (for better) for whatever education I had, so I would believe that it would be the same for the girl too. Its always good to have education but someone's attitude towards education matters too. Someone who in my judgement will at a later time boast of her education or try to think of herself as more informed and intelligent because of it (I mean pride) won't make me feel good about her. But someone who shows more humility because of her education and has an attitude of "I have so much more to know still..." is very desired. For true education always leads you to more humility and the expanse of knowledge has been made unlimited by Allah (swt). Wassalam |
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| Seeker |
| 05/29/01 at 15:01:35 |
| [slm] [quote] when a man sees a girl, he does not think to him self "waw look at the takwah on that". Islamic people who want to look for Islamic characteristics usually just compare what is apparent. [/quote] what is this?? how has no one, or little of you, especially men, said anything to this? is this all you look for?..or I should say the main thing you see? I pray that this is a way to provoke people into saying something rather than your truth... I think I'm going to start wearing niqaab... |
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| jannah |
| 05/29/01 at 15:13:05 |
| I think this is fascinating. I always wanted to know what guys look for. Now I know... The only sad thing is how far we've come from the sunnah. |
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| jehad |
| 05/29/01 at 15:33:25 |
| Jannah this is the facts, i didn't say i think like this, or i agree. but this is how people are. we might not like it, but closing our eyes to it will never change it. |
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| eleanor |
| 05/29/01 at 15:45:28 |
| slm Excuse me for saying so but this is a whole load of bull. My husband is far less "educated" than me. He left school at 13 where I finished at 20. It's worked out great for us. When we got married we were just interested in the character of each other rather than education or looks or anything. I was straight out of college, didn't have a clue about how to go renting a flat, paying tax, bills or any of the practical things in life. He was there for me. I've also learned loads about Islam from him. He learned how to use the computer from me, how to drive, *lots* of german etc etc. We both benefited mutually. It really was and still is a symbiotic relationship. He is the finance minister, I'm the secretary. Which means he looks after the money (coz as soon as I have dosh in my pocket I have to spend it) and I look after the post, filling in forms, making formal calls. I'm sure you all get the picture. He's my garments I'm his and we can't live without each other. wasalaam eleanor |
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| Kashif |
| 05/29/01 at 16:11:18 |
| assalaamu alaikum I pretty much agree with jehad, that many brothers (or even men in general) would prefer this. Sure you will find some who will look for qualities not mentioned above, but in general i think he is right. Which brother (who earns enough) wouldn't want to marry a pious Muslimah who could cook, clean, have children & look after them well, and look nice too? And i can't for the life of me see what is so unislamic about that? Lets consider this: - Brother A works in a good job & he earns enough for his family. His wife doesn't work outside of home, but he's happy. Because everyday he comes home the kids are looking good, the house is looking good, dinner smells nice, and his wife is the apple of his eye (but sometimes she looks tired and he appreciates the work she does). One could say that both the husband and wife have fulfilled important duties, right? - Brother B works in a job and so does his wife. Both of them come home (often tired) after a long day at work, and guess what? Dinner still needs to be cooked, and other household chores still need to be done. If all the brothers voted, i can guarantee that most will opt to be brother A and NOT brother B. I don't support the view that sisters should not work - but i don't think it should be the norm. Kashif Wa Salaam |
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| abdulsamad |
| 05/29/01 at 16:15:18 |
slm [quote] Islamic people who want to look for Islamic characteristics usually just compare what is apparent. [/quote] I would be more careful than that inshaallah. I mean, this is the person I would be spending the rest of my life with! It makes sense to be cautious. I would not go for looks alone. Character is also important. So is education, since most of the time, she'd be teaching the children (at least in the early years). wlm |
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| se7en |
| 05/29/01 at 20:32:11 |
| wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah, I think what's upsetting for the sisters here is that if jehad is right, if those are the only requirements a brother is looking for, he doesn't even need a Muslim sister. He doesn't even need a wife for that matter. Why doesn't he just hire a nanny, a maid, or a prostitute? Really. Those requirements are missing something. Something important. Think about it. I remember reading something about an amazing brother back in the day, who was looking to get married... and someone approached him about two sisters who were interested, one that only had one eye. He asked which of them was more knowledgeable, and he was told that the sister with one eye was... and that was the sister he married. Let's think about what this brothers requirements were. What was the first question he asked? Which one can cook better? Which one looks better? SubhanAllah. If it weren't for the good brothers I have met working at myna and msa that have restored my faith in Muslim men I would be very bitter.. I might be bitter actually :P But I know *good* brothers out there who's requirements are a little more than a sister who can keep house and look good. And kashif, come on.. you seriously think that those are the only two options? What about a brother who barely makes enough to support the family, but refuses to let his wife work because he thinks it'll be a challenge to his manhood as it is defined as one who provides for his family? What about a sister who is bored out of her mind at home the six hours the kids are at school and she doesn't feel like watching brain-numbing soap operas and instead wants to spend her time contributing benefically to her community or masjid or whatever? What about a brother who uses this same argument to prevent his wife from seeking more knowledge about Islam? I met a speaker this weekend who taught me a lot about marriage. One reason I think his marriage is so good and beautiful and happy is that he didn't get married to have someone clean up after him. He actually said his mother taught him how to sew and clean and cook and look after himself because she didn't want him to ever have to rely on a woman for those things. He didn't need a wife for those things, he needed a wife to help him in this struggle. I think the reason this gets me upset is that it reminds me all too much of the "sexuo-economic" relationship that women of the western suffrage movement had been fighting to break out of. The beauty of Islam is that our marriages are not based on this exchange of sex (or "looking nice for him" or whatever euphemism you want to use) in exchange for the man providing economically for a woman.. our marriages are based on a mutual desire to enter JANNAH.. and using whatever skills and resources we have been endowed with to help each other get there and to help our children get there.. My problem is this. Instead of brothers saying "Yeah, a lot of brothers are looking for those things, but what's really important in a marriage is a sister's taqwaah and eman" or something along those lines, it seems like people are *defending* this.. I know one thing, if a sister said "most sisters are looking for a brother with a six figure salary, a generous hand, a gorgeous face, and the ability to sweet talk" I know many sisters here would put her in her place. My problem is not with jehad's post. It's with the brothers responses to it. Where's your righteous indignation at your desires being so shallowly categorized? Where are your protests that you need more in a sister than a beautiful face? Where you at ??? |
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| The-Doctor |
| 05/29/01 at 19:06:09 |
| [slm] [quote] when a man sees a girl, he does not think to him self "waw look at the takwah on that". Islamic people who want to look for Islamic characteristics usually just compare what is apparent. what is this?? how has no one, or little of you, especially men, said anything to this? is this all you look for?..or I should say the main thing you see? I pray that this is a way to provoke people into saying something rather than your truth... I think I'm going to start wearing niqaab... [/quote] It's interesting that a lot of assumptions have been made. First with all due respect to brother Jehad, he does not speak for all the brothers. Silence on the issue does not mean the rest of the brothers agree with him. Perhaps in order to avoid a potential argument some of the brothers decided against posting. The sheer multitude of opinions can very possibly overflow a persons mind. Want my opinion? Sisters, don't take every opinion concerning this issue (and possibly others) seriously. Some rocks are better left unturned ... Wa Allahu A3laam |
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| The-Doctor |
| 05/29/01 at 19:36:24 |
| [slm] I've decided to add some more comments to this thread but I pray that insha Allah I choose my words wisely. It is sad the "some" yes "some" brothers have come to understand that the wife's purpose is only to cook, clean and slave away in the house. No I am not a feminist (yes there are some male femenists out there). Keep in mind though that a lot of these brothers have grown up in these types of households. Where perhaps the father has the big nice Phd degree and the mother is uneducated and has spent her entire life raising the children only to be underappreciated, overworked and uncared for by the husband. Once again this doesn't happen to every family but this sort of scenerio is common wa Allahu A3laam. So then you end up with the son(s) who grow up thinking that yes the way their fathers dealt with everything was the right way and that yes this is what a wife is about. You also end up with bitter, callous and angry daughter(s) who grows up seeing these things happen to her mother. So it is no wonder that a lot of sisters have bad opinions of brothers these days. Sometimes I wonder whether some of these brothers who say "well I will marry the one with the prettiest face" even stop to think at all. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because someone has loads of degrees doesn't mean they are more intelligent than the one with few or none at all. Book smarts is one thing and lively intelligence is another. A good mixture of the two can make a killer combonation. So brothers sure, you can marry the sister with the "pretty face" and be totally oblivious to everything else, but I suggest you prepare yourselves for hours and hours on end of discussions of the latest "fad" or what happened to Sam and Julie on whatever soap opera is on. I'll end with some advice to some brothers insha Allah: Guys, learn to do the following and learn to do it well insha Allah 1. Cook 2. Clean 3. Everything that perhaps your mother did for you and are now wanting to transfer on to your wife. It is NOT unmanly to admit that you can cook your own food, wash your own clothes, or do any of things that society has sterotypically put on a woman. Also, readers of this post. If you watch TV, pay close attention to the advertisements with cleaning appliances and such. In fact do this, mute the TV when the ads come on and watch what kind of people are in the ads. Have anyone of you every noticed that when there is an ad on about these new cleaning detergent or dishwasher liquid 9/10 times it is a woman presenting it? Sure most people don't pay attention to it but that is exactly what those advetisers are wanting to do. Subliminal messages? YES! :) Human thought process is a very interesting concept, one can only say subhana Allah at what Allah has created in us. Wa Allahu A3laam |
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| Asim |
| 05/29/01 at 20:08:31 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, I believe there is a hadith that says something to the effect that the world is full of provisions and the best provision is a righteous wife. The provision mentioned here is not worldly provision but the provision that will sustain and help the partners to enter paradise. Brothers who seek only worldly aspects in a wife are missing this point and purpose of marriage altogether. The same goes to sisters also. I know of sisters who would rather marry a guy who earns a 3-figure salary than one who does not. So there are brothers and sisters who view things in life differently and we should refrain from generalizing. Coming to the issue of work, education, home work, etc let me draw an analogy. The light spectrum has 7 colors from red on one end and violet on the other. When all colors radiate with equal intensity we get white, a pure and beautiful color. If the intensities of the colors are not the same then we get all kinds of shocking colors. A marriage is like a light spectrum - when it radiates white it is good and when it radiates any other color it is not balanced and has serious problems. Think of working outside to be at one end of the spectrum and home work at the other. So if both partners work outside then home will suffer and the marriage will not be balanced and fulfilling. There is division of labor in marriage for a reason. I think all of us will agree that there are things that either cannot do or do very badly. For example, a man cannot bear and nurse a kid :) So we have to understand this clearly. Between the two extremes though there is a lot that both partners should cooperate to accomplish keeping in mind the strengths and weaknesses of each (think of these as the 5 intermediate colors). Because, again, if any color does not radiate brightly in the spectrum the overall effect will not be satisfactory. I will also say that moderation should be exercised in all matters. There is no point for both partners to work outside just to support a luxurious style of living. Similarly taking too much volunteer responsibility within the community will be detrimental to the marriage. A human being has limits and cannot be a super-muslim-dad-spouse-mom-kids teacher-dawah king/queen-breadwinner-etc all at the same time! Hmm, I don't know if this rambling made any sense. Ah well... just my 2 cents. Wasalaam. |
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| Kashif |
| 05/29/01 at 20:20:28 |
| assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah [quote]I think what's upsetting for the sisters here is that if jehad is right, if those are the only requirements a brother is looking for, he doesn't even need a Muslim sister. He doesn't even need a wife for that matter. Why doesn't he just hire a nanny, a maid, or a prostitute? Really. Those requirements are missing something. Something important. Think about it. [/quote] A prostitute? hmmmmmmmm.... For myself, and i believe also jehad, i'd like to make clear that those qualities mentioned above aren't THE issues to look for in a spouse, but are among the qualities to look for. Of course, one looks for a wife who is intelligent and who is compatible, who has a zeal to learn and spread the deen, etc. but those are things that weren't mentioned because one would take for granted that those qualities are important in and of themselves - not only an indication of what the sister is like, but how she would be with her family, insha'llah. Perhaps the issue of looks has been overstressed. Doesn't everyone like to have a pleasant looking spouse? And shouldn't both husband and wife try to look good for each other? This is what i meant. Ibn Abbas used to dress nicely and make himself look handsome for his wife because he said "surely she likes to see in me, what i like to see in her." I didn't mean that brothers should make beauty the #1 quality to look for. Thats insane. [quote]I remember reading something about an amazing brother back in the day, who was looking to get married... and someone approached him about two sisters who were interested, one that only had one eye. He asked which of them was more knowledgeable, and he was told that the sister with one eye was... and that was the sister he married. [/quote] I think this is a flawed example. What you're trying to do is to hold today's brothers up to the example of people they won't be able to match. The Muslim in the narration you cite, one can safely assume, was one who grew up and was nurtured in a society in which Islam was manifest, and the laws of Allah were implemented. Significantly, he was a man living in a society where the women observed hijaab, and the society was geared towards the worship of Allah. How can you compare that to a brother who has been brought up in the lands of the disbelievers, who lived in jahiliyyah until one day, by Allah's Grace & Mercy, a friend got him interested in Islam, and who lived in a society where women flaunted their bodies, immodesty was widespread, and shaitaan's whisperings were obeyed? There is no comparison at all. If a Muslim is raised in a pious society he will be quite different to a Muslim raised in a different society. Alhumdulillah, you will still find some brothers who will always prefer the ilm & taqwah and not pay any attention to looks, may Allah increase their numbers. [quote]And kashif, come on.. you seriously think that those are the only two options?[/quote] Nope. [quote]What about a brother who barely makes enough to support the family, but refuses to let his wife work because he thinks it'll be a challenge to his manhood as it is defined as one who provides for his family? [/quote] Thats a different situation, and the right decision to take looks clear, insha'llah. [quote]What about a sister who is bored out of her mind at home the six hours the kids are at school and she doesn't feel like watching brain-numbing soap operas and instead wants to spend her time contributing benefically to her community or masjid or whatever?[/quote] She should go for it and her husband should encourage her to get involved. [quote]What about a brother who uses this same argument to prevent his wife from seeking more knowledge about Islam? [/quote] Unacceptable. Let me reiterate, the qualities listed by jehad and later endorsed by me are of relative importance but not THE most important ones. Kashif Wa Salaam |
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| BrKhalid |
| 05/29/01 at 20:50:34 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I don’t know what others think but to me the question of “What do you look for in a wife?” is answered by the following Hadith: Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: [color=Blue]A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious, may your hand be be smeared with dust.[Muslim][/color] And as if you needed any more reassurance as to why you should marry a pious wife: [color=Blue]'Abdullah b. Amr reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The whole world is a provision, and the best object of benefit of the world is the pious woman. [Muslim][/color] If we agree on the above how then do you reconcile the following statements made by Br jehad [quote] Men are attracted to pretty young girls, women who chase after a carrier often loss their looks by the time they decide to settle down, so can't compete well with young girls. Men are not interested in how educated a girl is, even if they state this, if they see a pretty young thing they will forget all about how educated she is.[/quote] [quote]Men are not looking for a provider, they intend to be the provider. Education is completely irrelevant to the man. He is looking for a wife. Some one who knows how to cook, clean, look after children and able to have children, and most of all look nice for him.[/quote] To me it seems that these “men” Br jehad is referring are obviously choosing their wives using some different criteria. How Islamic is that? Okay that’s my first point, the second point I wanted to make was something Br Kashif raised. [quote] Which brother (who earns enough) wouldn't want to marry a pious Muslimah who could cook, clean, have children & look after them well, and look nice too? And i can't for the life of me see what is so unislamic about that? [/quote] A couple of things here. Does that brother marry her *solely* for her piety or does that the fact that she can cook, clean etc also have an influence? Does he regard it as an added benefit or was it a deciding factor in his choice? The second point is that implicit in the statement above is that if the wife performs all the household chores he will be *happier*. Let me give you an example of what I’m trying to get across here. There are rich and poor people in this world. Allah [swt] in his wisdom provides for whom He wills. It may well be the case that if he gave a poor person abundant wealth he would become arrogant and deviate from Islam. Being poor on the other hand reminds him of how reliant he is on Allah and hence he’s a better Muslim because of his poverty. Similarly if a rich person were to lose his wealth, he may suffer from depression and lose his Islam. By being wealthy, he remains grateful to his Lord and, again, ends up being a better Muslim. So what’s my point? My view is that Allah knows in his wisdom which type of wife is best for our well being. For some of us it will be the sister who stays at home and cooks and cleans whilst for others it will be the high flying power dressing sister. My third point is about something Sr se7en said: [quote] …our marriages are based on a mutual desire to enter JANNAH.. and using whatever skills and resources we have been endowed with to help each other get there and to help our children get there.. [/quote] Actually scrap that, the above needs no comment. [quote]My problem is not with jehad's post. It's with the brothers responses to it. Where's your righteous indignation at your desires being so shallowly categorized? Where are your protests that you need more in a sister than a beautiful face? Where you at??? [/quote] With respect I would speculate that most brothers on *this board* personally don’t feel that their desires have been shallowly categorised and this may well explain the number of male responses to Br jehad’s post. And Allah[swt] knows best |
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| se7en |
| 05/29/01 at 23:22:42 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]A prostitute? hmmmmmmmm....[/quote]I was a bit upset when I wrote that post.. but yeah, if those are the *only* requirements you are looking for, why not? perhaps I should have said a "woman of ill repute".. [quote]For myself, and i believe also jehad, i'd like to make clear that those qualities mentioned above aren't THE issues to look for in a spouse, but are among the qualities to look for. Of course, one looks for a wife who is intelligent and who is compatible, who has a zeal to learn and spread the deen, etc. [/quote]dude, that's all I wanted to hear.. [quote]but those are things that weren't mentioned because one would take for granted that those qualities are important in and of themselves - not only an indication of what the sister is like, but how she would be with her family, insha'llah. [/quote]I don't think those qualities are a given.. I think that if they are a priority they need to be specified as such.. I didn't make the assumption that the qualities mentioned were automatically meant to be *after* a compatible intellect and a thirst for knowledge... perhaps this is a fault on my part, but I know that if a non-Muslim stumbled across this thread that's not an assumption they would have made... [quote]bitter, callous and angry daughter(s) [/quote]Hey! Are you trying to insinuate something :) I'm not bitter, no really.. Excellent post btw Doctor :) And ;-) you're now officially a chulo.. |
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| nehar |
| 05/29/01 at 21:47:20 |
| [slm] sorry 4 not makin sense in my last post here, i my self dont understand it now, lol. I think the what i was trying 2 say is, many women (plz dont get offended by me, cuz im a gurl maself), but we get jelous easily and are often not grateful. One thing many women will get in2 hell for is 4 being ungrateful. i myself for that reason would rather marry a guy who is more intelligeent (which is not hard, lol) but islamically better 2, that way i would be more grateful I think guys rather go for looks, but women are more emotional and thats why they tend 2 go for persnality. I think persoanlity is something 4eva, but looks fade. I think wealth isnt really a factor, because money comes and goes, also guys who have businesses and earn a lot, dont always have much time for family. [wlm] Nehar |
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| Seeker |
| 05/29/01 at 21:53:51 |
| [slm] I think for the sisters, it's very 'disturbing' to hear how men's requirements for a wife are generalized. We know, and we need to hear that all men, especially Muslims aren't too superficial, and will see what really matters and lasts instead of a 'pretty face' ...that will eventually disitegrate. In response to this... [quote] I remember reading something about an amazing brother back in the day, who was looking to get married... and someone approached him about two sisters who were interested, one that only had one eye. He asked which of them was more knowledgeable, and he was told that the sister with one eye was... and that was the sister he married. I think this is a flawed example. What you're trying to do is to hold today's brothers up to the example of people they won't be able to match. The Muslim in the narration you cite, one can safely assume, was one who grew up and was nurtured in a society in which Islam was manifest, and the laws of Allah were implemented. Significantly, he was a man living in a society where the women observed hijaab, and the society was geared towards the worship of Allah. [/quote] just because you don't have the ideal living settings to grow up in doesn't mean you have to stay that way. For example, Dhikr's father isn't too pleased about her defining what's important in her life, but masha'allah, she has turned out to be an excellent example for everyone around her, and a muslim who knows her purpose. You're telling me that you won't be able to struggle for the sake of Allah because it's too hard? or because everyone around you is doing the opposite thing? hmm...where does our jihad come in? |
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| jannah |
| 05/29/01 at 22:33:43 |
| Thank Allah for Brother Mokhtar, If it weren't for him I would have left the Muslim community a long time ago. I do believe Islam is right but sometimes "people's interpretations" get one down. Anyway today he went over four great women of Islam: Asma bint Abu Bakr--who will be given two khimar's in paradise for her courage and sacrifice to Islam and for her love of rasulullah [saw], Nusaiba bint Kaab--a true mujahidah in the combative aspect of jihad, Umm Darda as Sughara--a hafiz and faqih who taught other scholars, she taught one 'learn hikmah while you are young and it will become your character when old' and Hafsa bint Sireen --hafiz, faqih, muhaddithah, mu'ttaqi- the Qadi was asked who is the most able scholar you know-- he said Hafsa--they said what about her brother muhammad ibn sireen or hasan al basri. he said 'as for my opinion, I don't know anyone like Hafsa.' I can write so much more about their stories, character, work, piety, courage, effort of these women and even beyond that all the sahabiyat and amazing history of muslim women. These were great Muslims. This is our legacy. These are our role models. This is what we should strive for. Don't base your self-worth on if you can cook, clean or look pretty. (Especially any young sisters reading this!! ) None of these women are known for being such "obedient wives" or having "a house from good housekeeping" or for their "beauty". They are known for their Islam. Any guy who only values you based on such shallow requirements is not worth marrying anyway, for he is forgetting the true purpose of marriage and the true purpose of a woman -- that is to be a good Muslim and worship Allah. What if one day he comes home and the house is not spic and span because it is Ramadan and you were fasting and looking after the kids and everything else? If he bases how good a wife you are on how clean it is, then your life is just going to be pure Hell. What if he comes home one day and you're not so "pretty" any more to him? Unfortunately we see this too often, those who base their marriage on anything but the hereafter will have problems. So sisters find out what the brothers think is most important -- if it's cooking cleaning etc-- don't bother unless that is what you want the purpose of your life to be. Brothers wonder why some sisters have low opinions of them? Gee, I wonder why that is... |
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| nehar |
| 05/29/01 at 23:04:08 |
| [slm] i suppose if u guys r really good, u cud change ur wife, like tell her cleanilness is part of faith and no1 knows how 2 cook from day 1, u gotta learn, so u cud teach ur wife how 2. Any ways, i hope all u guys know, our Prophet (PBUH) used 2 help around in the house and work outside. The house is for the man and his wife to work in, as house cleaning is a non-stop job, there is never end to it, its more than a boring shift at the office!!! And every1 luvs kids, how can u hate them? as for bringing them up, time teaches everything. [wlm] nehar |
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| Barr |
| 05/30/01 at 02:33:12 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :) Dearie me, dearie me, dearie me! My dear sisters... I got disillusioned long time ago. And there are still, brothers out there, whose actions just confirms that hey.. it ain't ideal at all. I shan't distress and disillusion U any further with my stories... Now, moving swiftly back to the supposedmain topic at hand - MANHOOD certainly can't see much of that if people get their priorities all mixed up. coz, it seems that he doesn't truly know what truly matters.... At the end of the day, what / who makes a good wife.. well... the important variable here is iman... albeit her educational level, her beauty, her ability to wash that stubborn stain on his shirt... for only the woman of iman would recognise and acknowledge the manhood in real men. Well, I'll leave it as that... Now...Brothers... back to my original post... enlighten us.. what is your definition of manhood... if U please.... Jazakallah :) wassalam :-) |
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| BrKhalid |
| 05/30/01 at 04:52:12 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]Now...Brothers... back to my original post... enlighten us.. what is your definition of manhood... if U please.... Jazakallah [/quote] [quote] InshaAllah I'll write more when I get the time [/quote] I'm working on it!!! It seems I got a bit distracted with other stuff!!! ;-) |
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| Laboogie |
| 05/30/01 at 08:44:01 |
| [slm] [quote]Thank Allah for Brother Mokhtar, If it weren't for him I would have left the Muslim community a long time ago. I do believe Islam is right but sometimes "people's interpretations" get one down [/quote] I have to agree to this... Because of "people's interpretations" you find many women leaving the fold of Islam, especially those who married a muslim man and converted afterwards-I have seen this many things and unfortunately it continues to happen. I also think that culture has a lot to do with the attitude of men and women...in our cultures we hear that you have to marry a sister who knows how to cook, clean, light skin, comes from a known family,etc and then u hear that you have to marry a brother who is a doctor, has this and that degree, light skin, "good hair", has a job, etc. Then, you find people practicing their culture instead of Islam. |
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| jehad |
| 05/30/01 at 11:31:32 |
| Asalm walakum. I said in my post that Islamic men look for Takwah above all else. so why has every one been saying "men should look for takwah"? I also said the reason why men use other factors to chose between sisters. No one can see takwah, it is in the heart! It is possible for a man to weigh two sisters and compare their weights and heights. But it is impossible to compare the takwah of two sisters, except for what is apparent. Men are only able to compare extreme actions of evil or good that sister commit in the open to compare sisters. It is impossible to compare minor differences in takwah between two sisters, to try and obtain the better. If it is possible to measure takwah in the same way it is possible to measure height and weight, I am sure most men will buy them selves a 'takwah scale', when they want to get married, so that they will know sister A is better then B, because sister A has said subhanallah three more times then B. Allah can read the book of deeds on a sister, a suitor can't. Some sisters have done extremely good deeds, as have some brothers, with these people it is possible to come to the conclusion they have high takwah. But the problem is these people are few and far between. When Brothers and Sisters state their criteria to some one, they don't ask for these extremely good people, as it is very unlikely they will get them. What both men and women do is see what they can see and compare what they can compare. Sisters do prefer Doctors to street sweepers, this is a fact( I'll say I mean most, cause some one is going to complain and ask me if I have spoken to every sister). Unless the doctor is non practising and the street sweeper is, it is very unlikely that the sister will pick the street sweeper, when she is asked to chose between them. Lets say both of them are the same in what is apparent when it comes to takwah. How will you decide who is better? You can't cut open their hearts and compare their takwahs, as you can't get a reading that is accurate to three decimal places when it comes to takwah. If any of you think that I am wrong in this and it is possible to coipare minor differences in takwah, please tell me how, and I will stop wanting a sister who can cook, clean, wash, look nice, be nice to me, is not to much older then me, is able to have children and I will only use takwah as a way to decide what sister to marry. As now when it comes to takwah, the only indication I have is 'does she do all the farrads, and stay away from all the harrams', Problem is these days even that is very hard to find, that's why I am still unmarried. Getting back to the original post about why sisters who are old and highly educated find it hard to get married. Being a old and highly educated unmarried lady is not a very accurate indicator of high takwah. I thought my post was clear. There are certain things that indicate takwah, men who want takwah will compare them. Being old and highly educated is not some thing men find attractive. To men who Only have takwah as their criteria it is completely irrelevant, and to men who have other issues as well as or instead of that, it is often detrimental, for the reasons I have mentioned earlier. Some of you mentioned how highly educated can be an advantage, as you want her to teach your kids. It does not take a PhD to teach kids how to read and GCSE maths. The only use a PhD will be to your kids is if you want them to do the same PhD when they grow up. |
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| Mona |
| 05/30/01 at 13:38:03 |
| assalamu alaikum, yeah i agree with jehad's last point (for the first time i think)...PhDs are useless, stay away from them if you can :) and this is to sisters AND brothers...take my word for it, stay far away. just wanted to lighten up the discussion here. :) Take care y'all. wassalam |
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| kiwi25 |
| 05/30/01 at 13:37:28 |
| salaam, hmmmm..... how about we all just leave it to the indivisual to decide if (s)he wants his/her spouse to have good taqwah, looks etc. BUt we have still been told what is best with the hadith that Khalid gave. as for the education and all, we all noe that in islam the husband is the provider of the family, to be a provider u need the moolah, to get the moolah u need the job, to get a job that will keep a family stable economically inshallah u need high education, so to me i think its important that the husband has a high education but i would like him to have even higher iman and knowledge in his deen, that way he'll always noe its his duty to provide, and if something goes wrong financially, that the world does not end right there and he'll have sabr and keep his trust with whatever happens with Allah(SWT) i wouldnt mind though if my husband was less educated than me academically but even if he is (just a tad bit) islamically inshallah he will then benefit from me inshallah from what i noe of my deen i also think good common sense is important too. wasalam nouha:) |
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| jehad |
| 05/30/01 at 13:55:25 |
| i don't think they are connected. what is most imortant is experince in the field of work. a degree is just a paper with writing on it, it does not mean a job. If the man has a good job, then he can provide, even if he hasnt education. bus drivers make £350 a week. no education and a good stable job. Most of the income here is spent on rent, if the man has some where to live alread and does not need to spend on rent, then he can provide. |
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| Kiwaku |
| 05/30/01 at 15:28:31 |
| Asalam Alaikum Brothers and Sisters, Manhood Misplaced.... hmmm.... very interesting. Well, I will admit that at times it is very difficult to think about having a wife that his of a higher education than I am. But when I look at how much education I really have... it is not hard to see why women would want a man with a higher education than they have. For the purposes of support alone. Yet... and here is where it gets interesting for me... my fiance has a much higher education than I have. She is a 4th year medical student, and I have never graduated college. The highest education I have is what I got in the Military as a combat medical specialist. I can provide for a family, making sure that they are clothed, and housed, and fed properly... but not much more than that. Truly the mark of a good man in my eyes is one that can provide a strong faith-based household. Does it really matter if one does not drive a Mercedes, and live in a 300,000 dollar house? My fiance comes from a VERY wealthy family, and yet she is very satisfied with the fact that I can provide the basics. I do not think that this is an affront on my manhood that she has a higher education than I do. To us it means that if anything should ever happen to me, Allah forbid, that she would be able to take care of our family by working. Personally I think that the women who refuse to marry a man based on his educational background might be missing out on the most rewarding and faith-filled relationships available. It has been my experience that the more money a person makes the more likely that person is to end up worshiping the dollar and not Allah. After all... it is the worship of Allah that is the most important... right? If a man can provied faith, shelter, clothing, and food.... what more is there? Is there a difference between the faith of a poor man who works very very hard to provide for his family and the faith of a rich man who does not have to work hard to provide? I do not consider myself less of a man because I cannot buy the new cars, or buy an expensive house. I an not welleducated and am not ashamed of it. Having the love of Allah and the love of my family is more important to me than how many "sheep skins" I have hanging on my wall. My daughters do not consider me a failure because I cannot give them what the other girls have.... when they hug me, and I am able to play with them they know that I love them... and that makes me feel more like a man than anything. To know that I can provide a loving home for them, no matter how hard I have to work, is the greatest reward I could ever hope for. Men, brothers.... listen to me. Keep your faith strong, and it should not matter who has the higher education. Ladies, sisters.... listen to me. Keep your faith strong, and even if you have a better education than your husband, do not be discouraged. If he provides a good home, and works hard to give you what you need (not necessarily what you always want) then where is that wrong? True, Allah wants for us to be successful... but what is success.... is it determined by worldly attitudes? Or is it the success of strong faith and the life in Jannah to be enjoyed? Remember... "he who dies with the most toys.... still dies". Asalam Alaikum Usamah |
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| meraj |
| 05/30/01 at 17:28:38 |
| slm, well the way i see it, one of the most important parts of 'manhood' is to realize that male and female are mutually inclusive.. Allah created us that way for a reason.. bein a man is realizing that man if not superior to woman... we have different, but equal God-given rights.. we all have the same ultimate goal and obligation in this life.. we are here on this earth together to help eachother reach that goal. so its mandatory to treat eachother fairly and with love and respect.. and if someone disagrees with that, then he should look no further than the example of Rasulallah [saw]. yeah.. something liek that ;) |
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| Arsalan |
| 05/30/01 at 19:27:05 |
| [slm] Man! What an interesting thread... I'm kicking myself for not seeing it in the past 4 days. Se7en, the reason *some* people (me) did not reply was because they never saw the thread :-/ Anyway, I liked Asim's post a lot! Surprise surprise :) Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| nehar |
| 05/30/01 at 19:52:32 |
| [slm] ok, im changing ma views again may b education 4 a guy isnt 2 important, well not highly educated as in phD's. But seeming women have a bitg role as a mother, it can be an advantage having the basic maths and english skills, as women are the ones who influence the future of 2moro. [wlm] Nehar |
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| Rashid |
| 05/30/01 at 20:00:15 |
| [slm] [quote]I do not consider myself less of a man because I cannot buy the new cars, or buy an expensive house. I an not well educated and am not ashamed of it. Having the love of Allah and the love of my family is more important to me than how many "sheep skins" I have hanging on my wall. My daughters do not consider me a failure because I cannot give them what the other girls have.... when they hug me, and I am able to play with them they know that I love them... and that makes me feel more like a man than anything. To know that I can provide a loving home for them, no matter how hard I have to work, is the greatest reward I could ever hope for.[/quote] If you have the love of Allah and the love of your family, what else is there? I've come to the conclusion that wordly education is a waste of time. I've stayed up until fajr working on some endless term paper, just to turn it in, get a grade, and that's it. I know I'm supposed to be learning something, but i believe in self-education. Meaning, I like to find out things on my own instead of some professor telling me about it. So I don't care about college degree, phd, bla bla bla...having a piece of paper doesn't mean you're more intelligent than anyone else. I know a brother, high school drop out, but runs a business and practices the deen. Another brother I know, just got his masters, and all he talks about is stocks and wall street. Which one would you prefer? I'm just really cynical about this over-emphasis on a "degree" like if it makes you a better person or something. It's just like those marriage ads "seeking MBA, must make $100,000 or more a year, must drive BMW, must be american citizen" I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I think a distinction must be made between "book smarts" and "common sense" You'd be surprised how many people can explain the Pythagorean theorem but can't balance their checkbooks. These are the type of people that their mom and dad did everything for them their whole lives and so of course they want the dream wife who cooks, cleans, and the whole deal or the dream husband who puts them up in a mansion and tons of jewelry. So for me the above quote sums up what it means to be a man. I'm sorry about the tone of this post but I'm really frustrated and I have finals coming up. |
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| Kathy |
| 05/30/01 at 20:41:36 |
| slm A Man. hmmm. One of my friends is married to what I would call "A Man" As far as I know- he comes from a poor family, doesn't have an educational degree and in his younger days- a bit of a rebel. However- his family has been to Makkah (Large family), they live in a house mostly built by him, he is a butcher,a cook, a car mechanic, a plummer and an electrition. In his community he does extensive dawah- has given me charity when I was in need,(probably many others), he built the first mosque and halal meat market in our city. And he is now an Imam. The other day I was having a pepsi with his wife in their back yard- complete with a koi pond and I admired some newly planted flowers. She said he had planted them. Now that is a man! |
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| se7en |
| 05/30/01 at 21:42:38 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, Usamah you seriously impress me every time you post. MashaAllah, you da man :) Rashid, let me say this for all the sisters out there who are probably too shy to say this themselves: there are sisters out there who's requirements do *not* include a pretty paper framed on a wall, an income of 100G a year, or a fancy car.. there are sisters out there who are looking for only a couple of things in a brother... taqwaah, a serious and deeply rooted consciousness of Allah, humility and the ability to accept and work on one's own defeciencies, thirst for 'ilm, a fierce desire to entire jannah.. things like that. so just know that. Not every sister is looking for a fair skinned MBA/professional from a Hyderabadi family with an impressive bio-data :P Actually... let me ask you guys a question.. If my response to the previous posts about degree/education/income was this: "What sister wouldn't want to marry a pious Muslim who has a degree, makes $100,000 a year, drives a hot looking car, and looks nice too? I don't see anything unislamic about wanting that.." What do you think most people's reactions to such a comment would be? Honestly. Even if there's nothing Islamically wrong with those requirements, I'm sure many people would be thinking "look at that sister, how could she be so shallow, so materialisitic..." or other such negative comments.. but just flip it 180, and have a brother say something like that about a sisters cooking, cleaning, and looking pretty skills and the majority of us wouldn't even think twice about it.. I think that's pretty interesting... |
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| jannah |
| 05/30/01 at 22:04:48 |
| Usama thanx for that post. (and Meraj.. gives us hope for the younguns) I'd have to concur with se7en, I don't know many sisters who are looking for that 100G, MBA degreed brother. Most of the time that is a cultural kind of thing that the aunties go for. Most of the mature, mosque going sisters I know.. Albanyia mafia back me up... are only looking for that normal good muslim brother. plus i really find it odd that some brothers can say "i'm looking for that pretty young girl who will cook and clean" and yet they complain about "girls looking for degrees and cars". If you ask me they deserve each other! |
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| meraj |
| 05/30/01 at 22:52:14 |
| slm, [quote]plus i really find it odd that some brothers can say "i'm looking for that pretty young girl who will cook and clean" and yet they complain about "girls looking for degrees and cars". If you ask me they deserve each other! [/quote] haha.. good observation ;-D you cant have your cake and eat it too ;) |
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| eleanor |
| 05/31/01 at 06:51:32 |
| slm First off I'd like to say "welcome back" to Br. Usumah. Mash Allah what a beautiful post. It's certainly along my lines of thinking. When I first came to live here my husband was working in McDonalds too. But not as a manager, just a regular worker. Anyway, my family thought I had totally lost my marbles. Here I was dropping out of college to go and marry and live with a man who "only" worked in McDonalds. We worked together in McDonalds for almost four years. We never wanted for anything. We went on holidays, to the cinema..anything we felt like doing, we did it. Okay..we didn't have the BMW or the Mercedes..we lived for three years in a one room apartment. But we were happy and content together. But I have to say at this point that my husband's deen was irrelevant to me at that point in time. I just found him to be loving, protecting and felt very secure when I was with him. Subhan Allah! If I hadn't taken this step to marry him then I wouldn't be a Muslim today and wouldn't feel the same warmth, love and protection and security from Allah that I now do. Br. Meraj is absolutely right - husband and wife are mutually inclusive. Where one stops short, the other picks up, and vice versa. Manhood is not being superior to the woman, but rather seeing her as his equal, looking after her side of things in life. Now the thing is. If you as a man have a high education and your wife has little or no education, don't you think your conversations might be a little stilted. I find this with my husband. He has no idea of basic scientific or mathematical formulae so I have to explain everything to him. Mash Allah, he's really intelligent, more so than I, and teaching him is very rewarding. But brothers if you don't have the patience to explain things to your wives then maybe it's better to get one who is highly educated. This was my 99 cents on the subject. A bit more than the usual 2 so please forgive me if my post was really boring or irrelevant or repetetive. wasalaam eleanor |
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| Laboogie |
| 05/31/01 at 07:42:37 |
| [slm] [quote]Manhood is not being superior to the woman, but rather seeing her as his equal, looking after her side of things in life. [/quote] I totally agree...isn't that what Islam is all about?? I believe that is one of the reason I came to the fold of Islam ! [quote]Most of the mature, mosque going sisters I know.. Albanyia mafia back me up... are only looking for that normal good muslim brother. [/quote] I got your back ma 8-) |
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| jehad |
| 05/31/01 at 07:44:08 |
| Getting back to barr question, what is manhood? Manhood can not mean just being good, cause a lot of women are good, and they are not men. Some one is a man due to a accident of birth, in the same way some one is a women. So manhood is the opposite of womanhood. Manhood is what defines a man's masculinity, just as womanhood defines a women's femininity. If a man is accused of having a feminine character he is being insulted, just the same as if a women is accused of behaving like a man. There are some ways of acting and some clothing that is regarded as belonging to a certain sex, when some one from the opposing sex adopts them, they are regarded as having sexual pollution. A teacher I had a few years ago was explaining the effects of alloying to me, he explained that the addition of impurities has some good effects, but at the expense of other properties of the material. He gave the example of a Russian female engineer, who was a Olympic shot putter, she was very good at it, because they had filled her with male hormones to make her stronger. The addition of male hormones had the beneficial effect of making her stronger and making her win, but at the expense of her femininity, as she looked like a man, had facial hair like a man, had a Adam's apple, and her periods had stopped (she had died, due to her female body being unable to tolerate the changes). So all manhood means is masculinity. Men feel that it is masculine to be the provider. When they are unable to fulfil their role as the provider they feel that they have lost their manhood, even if it is due to no fault of their own, like unemployment. If the women is the one working and the man is the one at home the man feels he has lost his manhood as the man is meant to be the provider. This does not only exist in employment, it also goes in to size, a lot of women will not marry a man shorter then them, and a lot of men feel the same way about large women. No man is purely masculine and no women is purely feminine, but a man would want a women who is less masculine and more feminine than himself, and I feel that women feel the same way. |
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| Spring |
| 05/31/01 at 09:43:57 |
| [slm] Perhaps we are oversimplifying what we should look at in a future spouse. Both brothers and sisters will be looking for taqwah in the person that they marry, there are different ways of trying to guage a person's level of taqwah. Looking only at their physical ppearance and whether they wear hijab and have a beard are not the only things to look at. I know you guys already know this but seeing the kind of friends that that person keeps, the kind of activities they attend, the sort da'wah work they are involved in, what their family is like and how they interact with their family can show a lot about the person. And this is why sometimes parents can be brilliant at this side of things. They tend to look at the whole picture, insha Allah. |
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| Spring |
| 05/31/01 at 10:15:55 |
| [slm] Okay brothers, i'm starting to sympathise with your sitautions a little more. And I was thinking about this thread. (very sad, I know) I'm sitting in the library on a warm day, and I think almost all the females must take ages over the appearances. They all look very pretty, in a very superficial way. It must be really difficult for you brothers. |
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| kiwi25 |
| 05/31/01 at 13:53:43 |
| salaam, yes it may be hard for the guys but think "jannah" and the fear of Allah! dont let those other gurls get to you nice post eleanor, its nice too see that poeple are still happy even though they make low paying jobs alhumdulilah, wasalam nouha:) |
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| bhaloo |
| 05/31/01 at 14:26:12 |
| slm Eleanor and Kiwaku have made some good points. And actually this thread has a lot of good points made by different sides here, but I'm not going to get into that, at least not now. For me I think college and the educational system here in the US was not very efficient or practical. It just supplied me with a piece of paper that others marvel at and has enabled me to get a good job. But what I use from that educational experience, in a technical sense, is very little, in fact its perhaps 5%, and I'm in the computer industry. If it was upto me, I would shorten the 6 years of elementary school here to 4, and the 2 years of junior high to 1.5 years, and high school to 3 years instead of 4. Then for college I would make that 2 years, emphasisizing useful skills that one can use in the job field. I remember Germany did something like that, and called it technical or trade school or something like that. The educational system should focus on technologies and skills that enable one to do a job well, not just give you general and basic stuff or even unnecessary stuff that one won't even used. Since I was 10 years old I knew what profession and field I wanted to go in, and alhumdullilah I did that. |
| NS |
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| jannah |
| 05/31/01 at 16:05:14 |
| assalaam alaikum, hmm bhaloo technical trade school is all good, but the job of the educational system in the US is to (supposedly) create well rounded citizens. i don't think we should only teach what one would "need" in the workplace. what about history and literature and art and languages and general knowledge? we should educate all our citizens in all aspects at least to a certain point and that's probably why students in the US stay in school longer. it's interesting that "honors" or "ap" students learn all this cool stuff, but the average student who goes to a bluecolor job doesn't. btw a good book on this subject is called savage inequalities by jonathan kozol? |
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| Laboogie |
| 05/31/01 at 17:02:29 |
| [slm] Sorry if I sound a bit bitter but hey that tends to happen...anyways to all the brothers who said they want a wife who is less educated then them...."if you educate a man you're educating one person, but if you educate a woman you're educating the *whole family*" |
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| nehar |
| 05/31/01 at 17:32:16 |
[quote] "if you educate a man you're educating one person, but if you educate a woman you're educating the *whole family*" [/quote] [slm] well sed, that is so true [wlm] nehar |
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| BrKhalid |
| 05/31/01 at 18:47:05 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Slightly off the thread topic but I just wanted to make a comment on: [quote] For me I think college and the educational system here in the US was not very efficient or practical. It just supplied me with a piece of paper that others marvel at and has enabled me to get a good job. [/quote] Many social scientists regard a person’s education level as just a “signal” allowing prospective employers to assess their employees and nothing else. Therefore, for example, if you go to college or university and get your degree it shows employers that you are more intelligent than someone who has dropped out of school. As Br Arshad says there are very few people who actually use their degrees (or PhD’s ;-) ) in their workplace. But there’s one thing I want to point out here. I’ve seen the brightest graduates start work from top universities but when you ask them to do something which you regard as simple, they freeze like a rabbit caught in headlights!!! There’s a big difference between intelligence per se and the “application” of that intelligence. If we make an analogy with Islam, we can all be knowledgeable people but unless we “apply” this knowledge it’s merely information we know but don’t use. Just like that college graduate who never uses 99% of his degree. |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 05/31/01 at 23:43:50 |
| [slm] I couldn't resist posting anymore, so even though I think this discussion is winding down and people have become exhausted, I figured I'd just make my own few(long) comments. Again, as usual, take heed of the asterisks; remember everything between them are the opinions of the uneducated! ************ [quote]So there are brothers and sisters who view things in life differently and we should refrain from generalizing. [/quote] To be redundant here, to each his or her own. People will view things differently and that is natural. Much has been said of some of the examples of the Sahaba who looked beyond some of the wordly attributes (or lack thereof) of their prospective spouse. Subhanallah these are great examples and we should follow them, but we should refrain from condemning those who seek otherwise with a valid reason. We can advise them to look for other things, but it is their right and whatever they seek in marriage they will get it. If they don’t want the greater rewards of marriage, then fine. And before condemning them let us remember that we are all human beings that Allah has created with certain inclinations and desires; indeed to subdue all these desires for the sake of Allah is the epitome of a true [I]’abd[/I] but there are some, for many people, that cannot be subdued. And that is an allowance from Allah SWT; as long as they do not use that desire to do something which displeases Him, why condemn them? This is not a defense of shallowness. Correct, not condemn them. Before condemning that individual, we should condemn the atmosphere and environment that created such a mentality. The individual might not know any better, even if he or she fits the criterion as a religious brother and sister. Raise children in the future who will not see men or women in a certain confined role to break the cycle. We should praise the woman who married the very unattractive Julaybib RA. And we should praise Zayd ibn Harith RA for choosing to marry the much older, and less attractive Umm Ayman. But thinking of his example, reflect on the fact that Rasulallah [saw] was in the presence of many companions when he looked at them and advised them to marry Umm Ayman, a “woman from Paradise”. With the exception of Zayd, all the other companions did not offer marriage and remained silent. Why did they? Was it because some of them perhaps had certain desires and preferences which Umm Ayman, though being a blessed woman, did not fulfill for them? Very likely, Allahu ‘Alam. Yet, should we condemn these righteous men for this? No. Should we praise Zayd and say that he is more of a role model in this situation than these other Sahaba? Yes! In regards to the higher education thing, I use the following not as an example for I am not qualified to do so but rather as a point on which to reflect. Speaking of Zayd RA, can we condemn Zaynab bint Jahsh RA for her displeasure in marrying him? She did not like his lower social status, and this is well known and caused much marital problems between them and inevitably set the stage for the divorce. This may have been one of her natural inclinations and preferences which she could not subdue, even though she was a righteous and pious woman. We can’t condemn her for that, for it was something about her that she required for a good marriage. Therefore, I would think that if such distinctions in class or education make a difference to the woman (or the man) in that they have such a significance for them that the marriage will not flourish, then to each his or her own. If the man is a pious Muslim alhamdullilah but a bit of a dullard and the woman is a real intellectual type who enjoys in her free time discussing the concept of relativity, and such a discussion is for her a major source of contentment and happiness, then I would venture to say that woman probably shouldn’t marry that man because they just wouldn’t be compatible. And that is the important thing here. Two people may be very pious, but if there personalities and interests, or even the very manifestations of their piety, don't mesh, then that doesn’t set the stage for a successful marriage right? This doesn't validate the prevailing mentality amongst brothers and sisters in Muslim circles these days. The examples I have given above I understand are in some ways not applicable now because what were exceptions to the rule then are sadly the rules themselves now. We should do our best to offset and reject these mentalities; and if we cannot persuade our parents or friends to progress in their thinking to the thinking of the Sahaba, then again we must make sure that our children do not fall into the materialist cultural trap many of us have grown up in. (I do recognize the irony that to do that one must find a spouse to help with that, though that spouse could very likely be part of that materialist cultural tradition, but there have always, and will always inshallah, be sisters and brothers who are outside that mold, so brothers and sisters, don't lose heart, they are out there, just keep looking) [quote]Now...Brothers... back to my original post... enlighten us.. what is your definition of manhood... if U please.... Jazakallah[/quote] Before commenting here, something I believe very much related to a concept of manhood is this whole cooking/cleaning thing. The example of Rasulallah[saw] has been already mentioned , but even if one was foolish enough to forget his[saw] example, how can any “man” need a cooker and cleaner?…I have always been perplexed by brothers who are so in need of someone who needs to do such things for them. As the Doctor said: [quote]It is NOT unmanly to admit that you can cook your own food, wash your own clothes, or do any of things that society has sterotypically put on a woman. [/quote] I would go further in saying that [I]this[/I] is actually in the definition of manhood, and that not having the ability to do such things is unmanly. Why? Because most of us would say that one of the essentials of manhood is independence, not just financial but personal…Those who need some sort of personal attentive care are still sort of like kids no? I must say, personally speaking, until I lived on my own and began to cook and clean and do all those things I could not be on the path to being a true “man” because had I not learned those things, that would mean I would be depending on someone else for something I have the ability, and responsibility, to do for myself. How can a real man depend on anyone for anything? I thought it was the independence of a man, the ability to stand up alone on his own two feet and be a leader, that a man brings to a marriage? Why marry then if you cannot bring that to the table? Why would a woman even marry someone who doesn't do that? Maybe I’m missing something… The man who is independent in these matters, among others, will begin to reflect on the real benefits of marriage. So what if a woman can cook and clean, big deal, he can do it himself, maybe he can even do it better. Why marry then? What possibly can a woman offer? Why take a step that challenges all that independence by making one’s heart, well-being, and happiness in large part dependent on another human being? A true man, though, will recognize that above all else, what makes him a man is that he will seek out and embrace all those things which help him fulfill [i]uboodiyah[/i] to Allah SWT. A real man, in reaching independence, will recognize that, as Allah SWT created him, he cannot promote and maintain that external independence and be a true [i]khilafa[/i] and [i]’abd[/i] that Allah SWT wants him to be, without the complement of “womanhood” in his life with a wife. Because the relaxation of the heart, amongst other benefits of the marriage, as we know, are a sign of Allah SWT (cf. 30:22) and reflecting on those signs, which in the case of marriage will be evident him for every second of his life thereafter, only brings the man closer to fulfilling [I]uboodiyah[/I] to Allah SWT as perpetual reminder, and motivator, to please Him. As some people have said, you will get what you seek in a marriage. Surely it’s not an accident that the very first hadith in some Sahih Bukhari is the one which says that the reward for actions will be according to what he intended, and surely it’s not an accident that this same hadith was revealed on someone’s emigration to Makkah for the sake of marrying a woman, not for the sake of Allah SWT. For those pious Muslims who seek cooking and cleaning in their marriage then there is no blame on them. That's what they'll get. But I would say that if they were to become independent of these concerns, since by definition they would then not be in need of such services, it will be easier for them to see the greater benefits of marriage. And in seeing that they will not only grow more together with their wife in a spiritual sense but also a worldly sense. That being said, if independence is part of manhood, as I suggest, how shall we define manhood? Can one define manhood? I can't, because I think of manhood (and womanhood) as something you can't put your finger on, but rather something you see in an individual and your gut tells you immediately that person is a real man or a real woman. But this is what comes to mind on what "manhood" is: It's taking off one's cloak and laying it on the ground so an old woman can be seated, like Rasulallah[saw]. Its getting off one's camel to pick up the reins you just dropped rather than asking someone on the ground to pick them up for you to save you the inconvenience, like Abu Bakr RA. It's holding the banner in battle with your left hand after your right arm has been cut off, then still holding it with the two stumps after your left arm is subsequently cut off, like Jafar ibn Abi Talib RA. It's having such remorse and sadness for insulting a fellow brother that you put your cheek on the hot sand and plead for your brother to step on your face, like the companion (Abu Dharr?) who once insulted Bilal RA. It's choosing to marry an older woman rather than a young virgin because you have seven sisters to take care of now that your father has died, like Jabir ibn Abdullah RA, who was less than 20 years at the time. It's prolonging your sujood only because your grandchild is sitting on you and you don't wish to disturb them, like Rasulallah[saw]. It's offering your impoverished brother half of your wealth, even half of your wives, like Sa'd ibn Arrabi RA, and politely declining the offer, simply asking for the location of the marketplace, and then becoming rich on your own, like Abdurrahman ibn Awf RA. It's going to the center of the town openly, when all your companions are making the Hijrah secretly, and saying loudly, "I am emigrating. He who wants to leave behind him a bereaved mother, a widow, and orphaned children can meet me beyond his valley.", like Umar ibn Khattab RA. All of these examples are, for me, examples of manhood. And all of them are simply manifestations of what happens when someone turns towards Allah SWT. So maybe we can say that "manhood" are those qualities which naturally arise in a man when he only seeks to serve and glorify Allah SWT. "Manhood" in many ways is not defined by the man but by those who see the uniqueness of "manhood" that men themselves may not notice. The ones of course who will see this will be women. So perhaps the sisters should make this definition for us. Why? Because men and women are both independent. Yet they join together according to the plan of Allah SWT because they complement one another and can correct their respective deficiencies with the unique characteristics each one brings to the union. And the result is the sum of this marital unit is greater than its parts. The one who is best equipped to elaborate on what is a unique characteristic is the one who lacks it and therefore can appreciate that uniqueness. If that is the case, then, I think that Barr said it best: [quote]for only the woman of iman would recognise and acknowledge the manhood in real men[/quote] Perhaps even our definitions of gender are dependent, and even based upon, the complementing gender's perception. I guess you can't get around the fact of our existence that women and men complement one another, even in this! "The Believers, men and women, are protectors of one another" (cf 9:71) And Allah knows best... ********************* BTW, yes I believe that being concise is part of manhood probably, but alas, this is something I have a deficiency in. :) [slm] |
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| Asim |
| 06/01/01 at 00:27:37 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Wow, AbdulBasir that was an excellent post mashallah. Agree with you 100% and yes manhood is not something one can put a finger on. I think the following is probably the best definition possible. Because if you go into specifics then you go into personal preferences and biases and inclinations that would differ somewhat from person to person. Actually the same definition is good for womanhood also. [quote]So maybe we can say that "manhood" are those qualities which naturally arise in a man when he only seeks to serve and glorify Allah SWT.[/quote] Alright, I think this was concise enough...;) Wasalaam. |
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| Barr |
| 06/01/01 at 01:17:21 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) Br Abdul Basir :-) :-) :-) Jazakallahukhairan kathiran jiddan... InshaAllah, I'll post more later :-) wassalam |
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| ZIL |
| 06/01/01 at 02:20:01 |
| [slm] I have been quietly watching the discussion on this thread ever since it started, trying to organize my thoughts and formulate an opinion of my own. Although I'm still in the process, I must say I mostly agree with AbdulBasir. [quote]Yet, should we condemn these righteous men for this? No. Should we praise Zayd and say that he is more of a role model in this situation than these other Sahaba? Yes! It's prolonging your sujood only because your grandchild is sitting on you and you don't wish to disturb them, like Rasulallah[saw]. It's offering your impoverished brother half of your wealth, even half of your wives, like Sa'd ibn Arrabi RA, and politely declining the offer, simply asking for the location of the marketplace, and then becoming rich on your own, like Abdurrahman ibn Awf RA. It's going to the center of the town openly, when all your companions are making the Hijrah secretly, and saying loudly, "I am emigrating. [/quote] I must commend you for being one of the few to bring EXCELLENT and PRACTICAL examples from the seerah of Rasulullah [saw]!!! [quote]A true man, though, will recognize that above all else, what makes him a man is that he will seek out and embrace all those things which help him fulfill [i]uboodiyah[/i] to Allah SWT. Two people may be very pious, but if there personalities and interests, or even the very manifestations of their piety, don't mesh, then that doesn’t set the stage for a successful marriage right? [/quote] I particularly liked these statements. Jazakallahu Khair for an excellent post. InshaAllah, I'll post some more of my ideas soon. [slm] |
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| Nazia |
| 06/01/01 at 11:38:40 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, Education and Manhood--both very relative terms, as we have thoroughly discussed. I think others before me have established a well-grounded definition for each, and so I will not spend too much time in that arena. Instead, let me spend a little bit of time and effort in a surface level soul-search. I'd like to think of myself as an observer, a curious George if you will... Ever since I was young, I used to observe various people and their various conversations, and wonder, [i]why[/i] were they talking about what they were talking about? What do they talk about when no one is around? Is talking even that important? I looked at young couples, and thought--if they spent every hour in each other's company, what on earth were their conversations?? And as I got older, I realized that I became less tolerant of idle conversations. I became interested in the strangest things. I developed all sorts of theories on human nature, personalities, businesses, nations, governments etc. Girls who I could call and talk to for hours each day in my youth---I could barely talk to for even 15 minutes a month. I knew I wasn't more intelligent than any of these people. Some of them were much older and more educated than me. It was as if we were simply travelling on different wavelengths. We were like [i]skew lines[/i] on a Cartesian Coordinate system(for those geometrically inclined ;)). No one better than the other, yet neither were destined to ever cross. So, as petty a concern it may be, a concern it was-- What will my husband and I talk about?! Will he think I'm strange? Will he think I'm just some flaky philospher wannabe, with more theory, and less action? Will he laugh at my interest in politics? Ignore my crazy theories? I'm majoring in computer science, so is he [i]expecting[/i] a super-programmer with a passion for computers and everything that entails?? <hope not> So anyways, I realized I would need someone who could share my passions. I needed someone that encouraged me to think---who MADE me think. Someone who could bring me back to reality when I had gotten too far ahead of myself, yet someone who would not belittle my idealism. Did this require a PhD? <No, but it wouldn't have hurt ;)> Jk. Seriously though, for me, I needed someone who possessed a certain amount of intellect, a certain amount of passion, and a certain amount of interest. I like the idea of striving, struggling, always trying to better ones' self. If my husband was able, yet didn't have a great education at the time we were married, I wouldn't want him to be okay with it. I would want him to want to do more, go higher, learn, understand, expand. If he thinks a bachelor's degree is enough-- I would quietly think he was wrong. I wouldn't say that he'd have to get his MS or MBA, but I would want him to do something. Learn Arabic, further his Islamic education, anything--but he should never be satisfied. He should continue to strive for the utmost perfection in every aspect of life until the day he dies. And can I just around and watch soaps? Of course not! I too, would have to strive my entire life, strive to increase my knowledge, Islamic and worldly, strive to become the best mother, the best wife, the best person. Together, we would forever strive to live up to our titles: Muslim and Muslima. So for me, its not the actual "degree" thats of real importance, its that desire, that passion to continue growing, continue learning, in any medium. [quote]Excuse me for saying so but this is a whole load of bull. [/quote] I think the reason this thread has generated so much controversy is [i]because[/i] the topic is so specific to the individual. Its like the saying, one man's junk is another man's treasure. What I consider important may be useless to someone. Others may not place so much importance on the nature of conversation, others still, may enjoy the virtues of silence. Its already been said many times in this thread, so I will stop reiterating, but its true. You see, I don't want a skew lined husband...I want one that intersects with my line, one that makes that vital connection. For me, this connection will come through mutual passions and desires, stimulating conversations, and above all, a deep, unconditional love for Allah SWT and His beautiful religion. May Allah grant us all spouses that are made from among us, serve as our garments, and bring us closer to the beautiful Garden. Ameen. Take Care, Nazia |
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| BrKhalid |
| 06/01/01 at 06:15:44 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Br Abdul Basir, you should cut jury service more often!!! ;-) Awesome post. [quote][color=Red]If they don’t want the greater rewards of marriage, then fine.[/color] And before condemning them let us remember that we are all human beings that Allah has created with certain inclinations and desires; indeed to subdue all these desires for the sake of Allah is the epitome of a true ’abd but there are some, for many people, that cannot be subdued. And that is an allowance from Allah SWT; as long as they do not use that desire to do something which displeases Him, why condemn them? This is not a defense of shallowness. Correct, not condemn them. Before condemning that individual, we should condemn the atmosphere and environment that created such a mentality. The individual might not know any better, even if he or she fits the criterion as a religious brother and sister. [color=Red] Raise children in the future who will not see men or women in a certain confined role to break the cycle. [/color] [/quote] [quote]We should do our best to offset and reject these mentalities; and if we cannot persuade our parents or friends to progress in their thinking to the thinking of the Sahaba, then again we must make sure that our children do not fall into the materialist cultural trap many of us have grown up in.[/quote] Absolutely. It may be difficult to change attitudes of today but inshaAllah we can all change the attitudes of tomorrow. [quote]Therefore, I would think that if such distinctions in class or education make a difference to the woman (or the man) in that they have such a significance for them that the marriage will not flourish, then to each his or her own. If the man is a pious Muslim alhamdullilah but a bit of a dullard and the woman is a real intellectual type who enjoys in her free time discussing the concept of relativity, and such a discussion is for her a major source of contentment and happiness, then I would venture to say that woman probably shouldn’t marry that man because they just wouldn’t be compatible. And that is the important thing here. [color=Red]Two people may be very pious, but if there personalities and interests, or even the very manifestations of their piety, don't mesh, then that doesn’t set the stage for a successful marriage right? [/color][/quote] I'd agree but in such a situation I'd say it really depends on how much the educated party is willing to understand his/her less educated counterpart. Some may find it completely unworkable whilst others, in time, may learn to deal with it. If you know which type you are from the outset, then you probably will have more of an idea as to whether the marriage will be a successful one. [quote] So for me, its not the actual "degree" thats of real importance, its that desire, that passion to continue growing, continue learning, in any medium. [/quote] Sr Nazia this quote got me thinking. Br Asim also made this point recently too. [quote] It doesn't matter what level of emman or knowledge they [the potential spouses] are at the moment as long as they have a desire to increase it. If this is the case then both partners increase in eeman after marriage.[/quote] If you take the two statements above, what we seem to be saying is that it’s the shared "quest" for knowledge that makes two people compatible and not the actual "level" of knowledge itself. May be the brothers and sisters in Singapore are fixating on levels of education and feel wary of marrying outside a certain education level. To quote what Sr Barr said in her original post: [quote]We're working on the premise that brothers feel... err... intimidated, perhaps also, feel that he is not up to a certain standard, or some issues of self esteem? [/quote] This phenomena may actually have nothing to do with "manhood" or "womanhood" but could be simply a misjudgement (made by both genders) as to what one should look for in a spouse? Okay that's my [insert a couple units of a currency's] worth ;-) I wonder whether Sr Barr realised what she was doing when she started this thread !! ;-) Wasalaam Br Khalid |
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| eleanor |
| 06/01/01 at 07:41:24 |
| slm Mash Allah Brother AbdulBasir!!! You said it. Jazak Allah Khair!! :-) wasalaam eleanor |
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| jehad |
| 06/02/01 at 15:49:42 |
| Asalm walakum I think I'm going to have to disagree with every one here. Manhood has a meaning, it is not another word for good. It has positive as well as negative connotations. The examples that were mentioned from the life of the sahabah and the prophet, are not only examples for men, but they are also examples for women. If a women did those things, we wont say "she is a real man", that would be a insult to her. Being a 'Real Man' is different from being a good human, as being a Man is due to a accident of birth, and being a good human is due to actions. Manhood is only a measure of a man's masculinity. Masculinity is a treat that is opposed to femininity. There is nothing good or bad about manhood, or womanhood. Just like there is nothing good or bad about being a man, or being a women, it is due to a accident of birth. Manhood and Womanhood are not the same. If they were we will use one word that can be used for both, Humanhood. In marriage manhood and womanhood complement each other. the male and female both have their roles, the roles and traits which both of them share is not regarded as manhood or womanhood, but being a good person, Humanhood. Manhood are the roles and characteristics that a man must have, to a greater extent then a female, while womanhood are the roles and characteristics that women must have to a greater extent then men. Kind of like biological factors: facial hair is part of masculinity, it does not mean it is always a good thing, because a lot of women have it as well, and for them it remains a masculine treat, so is considered by them as a negative characteristic. I can kind of understand the thinking of men who refuse to marry higher educated women (if such men exist), even thought I personally don't have a problem with it or have come across any men who look down on such women, as I can't see the masculinity in education. ************************************************************* This part has been removed cause i think today, it is so rare to find a mate who even proforms the minimum of islam. So people cant really be picky about marrying some one we find completely unattractive. But if i lived in a nation where their are lodes of practicing sister attractiveness would be a factor. ********************************************************** May be it is the same on the education factor, where men with no education may feel like "the pretty little lady", if they marry some one who is extremely educated? |
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| taueeya |
| 06/02/01 at 22:00:47 |
| Assalam-O-Alaikum, To recognize the importance of one thing, Allah has always created something either exactly opposite to that thing in nature or atleast something different from it so that a comparison is done and then appreciation is achieved for example Allah itself created everything other than HIs own presence so that they could all appreciate each other and then finally collectively could appreciate the presence of Allah. Other examples include Good vs. evil, light vs. dark, Life vs. death, Jannat vs. jahannum and the list goes on. I guess, this same comparison can give the definition of manhood. For me , it is as simple as that that manhood is what a man can do better than any other creature created by Allah. This is how Allah also probably defines manhood. For us, the humans , to understand and appreciate the manhood, is simply appreciate the womanhood. Had there been no women on earth, I guess, none of us would have spoken of manhood. I have been thinking for long trying to find out the answer of following 2 questions but yet invain: 1. Why was Adam ( A.S ) created before Eve (A.S) and why not vice versa? 2. Why were all the prophets males and none female? Allah ( SWT) knows better than us but I think the definition of manhood probably lies hidden in the answer of the above 2 questions. The best post till now, in my opinion, was from Abdul Basir. Finally, please, anyone of u, be not offended by any word of mine, and if it does even at its slightest, I appologize. Jazaak Allah. Wassalam. |
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| se7en |
| 06/02/01 at 23:30:24 |
| wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah, [quote]To recognize the importance of one thing, Allah has always created something either exactly opposite to that thing in nature or atleast something different from it so that a comparison is done and then appreciation is achieved for example Allah itself created everything other than HIs own presence so that they could all appreciate each other and then finally collectively could appreciate the presence of Allah. [/quote] There's a verse in the Qur'an that says that Allah created *for us* ["lakum"] all that is on earth, meaning that everything around us - the seasons, the animals, the mountains, the oceans, the variations in our colors and languages - serve as ayaat for us, that upon reflection will help us realize our Creator and acknowledge this purpose of ubudiyyah we share.. and there's another verse that says that within our ownselves are signs for those of us who have eman... so if this is what you mean, that perhaps part of the wisdom behind men and women being created differently is to help us appreciate Allah's glory, to help us become nearer to Allah, and to remind us of our purpose in life, then I agree with you :) [quote] Other examples include Good vs. evil, light vs. dark, Life vs. death, Jannat vs. jahannum and the list goes on. [/quote] I never really thought about things in this context. I just always figured that one was not an entity in and of itself but just the *absence* of the other.. ie darkness the absence of light, evil the absence of good, ugliness the absence of beauty... pretty interesting.. perhaps it just depends on your perspective.. we actually discussed something along these lines [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=2143]here[/url]. I don't think that death is the *opposite* of life though.. because death is not a complete annihilation, it's not our end. It's just a different form of life, the 'life' of the barzakh, the 'life' of the hereafter, etc.. [quote] 2. Why were all the prophets males and none female? [/quote] wAllahu 'alam if the reason for this was biological or not, or having to do with our inherent nature. This was actually a question I asked my islam weekend school teacher once. He, may Allah reward him, answered me by asking me to describe the condition of women in the societies to which these prophets were sent. None of them were exactly conducive to a woman having the ability to be a representative of Allah's deen, the capacity to spread Islam, and being a political, social, economic and spiritual leader for a people.. that's how I always understood it. Allah alone knows the reasons why He honored whom he did to be His messengers. wAllahu 'alam. good post taueeya :) wasalaamu alaykum. |
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| taueeya |
| 06/03/01 at 02:56:04 |
| Salaam, Se7en, For me its a bit difficult to accept that presence of one is simply the absence of other. Say for example that evil is the absence of Good, but our belief is that Good is from Allah, so God forbidden, it is not possible that evil is the absence of Allah since Allah's presence cannot be denied at anytime. And probably u missed my words that " atleast different from it" which I specifically used because I knew that it may not be acceptable to percieve for others as what I percieve in case of comparison between things like life and death, light and darkness, etc. etc. But still my thinking in this context is that 'Life' is actually the opposite of 'Death' or vice versa because Life here is "freedom of movement from Allah( to do something/anything)" where as Death is the "intervention in that freedom of movement from Allah( to do nothing)" and that intervention is also , ofcourse, from none other but Allah Almighty. Where as the life after death is eternal life which none of us has ever seen except Allah so we have not been given something to compare that eternal life with something else. You got me correctly with the rest of my comments. Brothers/sisters, ur comments are more than welcome. I'll be more than happy if anyone of u argues with my thinking and helps me in making corrections in my thinking. "IT IS BETTER FOR ONE TO BE WRONG AFTER CONSULTATION THAN TO BE RIGHT WITHOUT HAVING IT.": ABDUL MALIK IBN MARWAN. Jazaak Allah. Wassalam. |
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| jawadio |
| 06/03/01 at 03:28:18 |
| Salam... WOW. When i saw the title of this thread i knew immediately, "This is going to draw a lot of attention," and alhamdulillah it did. It seems like the thread is about winding down, but I just wanted to add a few observations on the discussion and some of my thoughts. Please excuse the length. First. Much of what was said (and if you go back and re-read the posts, I think most people will agree with me) was written in haste because this is an emotionally charged issue - manhood and womanhood, and what it means to be one, further complicated when you keep in mind that it also discusses marriage and "what the other gender should expect of their spouse." This last point is what I think is key - what are our expectations of a spouse, and are we justified in making those "demands" (for lack of a better term) on our spouses. Personally, I think that everyone has the right to decide what type of person they want to marry - if the guy wants a good-looking woman who can cook and clean, alhamdulillah; if a woman wants a guy that brings in the big money and is good looking, alhamdulillah. Rasul Allah gave them as options for anyone that is looking for a spouse and I don't think that it is right to dictate what one "should" or "should not" want. Again, the example that was already mentioned of Zaynab divorcing Zayd (Allah be pleased with both of them) which Allah ta`ala Himself mentioned in the Qur'an, should suffice as an indication of this. Also, if anyone reads the hadiths concerning divorce and sees why the sahaba divorced one another, you will see a variety of reasons - including those dealing with looks and personality - all of which Rasul Allah allowed. One's "criterion" for a spouse is quite relative to the person - be it looks, wealth, social status, din, how many rakats they knock out in tahajjud, or how many reps they do in the gym, whether they make you laugh, or (as someone just recently told me) whether they give you butterflies (!!!!). I do not think that it is right to censor or consider it low for someone to marry for any of those reasons; to do so, would justify criticizing Sayyida Zaynab (Allah be pleased with her) for her wanting to divorce Zayd - and we would do well to remember that Sayyidah Zaynab is umm al-mu'minin, one of our mothers. In the end, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) gave us those options but suggested that we marry those with faith, and his "suggestion" (for lack of a better term) is the shariah, and where true happiness lies. Alhamdulillah... Secondly. To anyone that pays attention to what Muslim kids (ie, the 20-somethings) these days are talking about, it is quite clear that they - both the men and the women - are frustrated, emotionally and physically. I would suggest that perhaps much of that frustration could be done away with by people getting married. No, I am not one of those that thinks that everyone's problems are a result of being single. However, I am sure that we will agree that Allah has not decreed monasticism as a mode of living for humanity, and thus there seems to be some blessing in marriage beyond just sexual gratification or financial security. (as se7en rather bluntly suggested, for the former one might consider going to someone "of ill-repute") Again though, if that is what someone wants out of their marriage - sexual gratification/financial security - then, alhamdulillah, you're welcome to it, though it would be wise to remember the fleeting nature of those two. For those that want more, it would seem the only real option is to take the suggestion of the Prophet and seek a spouse that has strong faith. As for what that blessing in marriage is that is beyond sexual gratification/financial security, we'll leave that to another discussion. Thidly. To the issue at hand - manhood. It is impossible to discuss "manhood" without discussing "womanhood." In recent times, it has come in vogue in "gender studies" circles to discuss the eclipse of masculinity and it's being overshadowed by the feminine. What has the loss in masculinity done to America's men? Some have even suggested that it is this loss (of masculinity) that resulted in some of the high school killings in the past few years - all of the killers were men. Perhaps. I would not go that far, but I do agree that there has been an eclipse of what it means to be a man by the emphasis of what it means to be a woman - and this has happened in the Muslim community in the US as well. I have yet to hear any real discussion of manhood being given by a Muslim speaker/scholar, yet we have an abundance of material on "women in Islam" - lectures, seminars, books, homepages, etc. I understand why there has been this focus on women - women are a constant front of attack by the media, and the modern secular world we live in; we need things like that for our Muslim girls to build their self-confidence so they do not succumb to an un-Islamic mode of living, etc. Alhamdulillah. What about the guys? Have you ever wondered why at virtually every msa across America it is always women that are the active members? The few cases where the women are not are when there is some brother that thinks, "women shouldn't even be going to university," or "women need to be home cooking and cleaning," and manages to turn every sister off from coming to the MSA. Yet, despite those attitudes, Muslim girls are really the dominant force in MSAs (whether that is good or bad, I am not saying, I am merely making this observation). How many times have you heard Muslim girls complain about how the sisters are doing all the work (setting up lectures, organizing da`wah initiatives, etc) and all the guys want to do is organize the barbecue or basket ball tournaments? "The only time a 'brother' shows interest," one girl told me, "is when a good looking non-Muslim girl is involved. That's it." We have heard this all before, but have we asked, "Why is this the case?" I suggest that it is because of this eclipse of masculinity. Women have a clear picture of what it means to be a Muslim woman and have it re-inforced through all of these things (lectures, seminars, etc). Furthermore, a Muslim girl can't really escape it if she wears hijab - she is literally on the frontlines 24/7. The guys? What do they have? To be honest - nothing. A few scattered MSA/MYNA camps in which they are told time and again that the world is controlled by the awesome power of the Jews. That's it. When they seek advice on what to *do* in life, "Akhi, finish your degree, get a job, get married, and khalas... that's life." "Akhi go to IT, that's real hot right now." When they confide in an elder with their problems (a very difficult thing for any guy to do) what are they told? "Just get married khalas." For a Muslim man, life is basically, "Finish your degree, get a job, get married, and fund the Islamic school." What kind of characteristics does this person have? Soft, weak, and meek. Completely passive. Compromises on everything in life so as not to rock the boat. A "girly-man." That is one option. The other one is the complete jihadi fantasy: "Akhi Muslim men need to do jihad, they need to fight the Jews, they need to fight our governments, etc." This is the "manly-man." Not that there is anything wrong with those two options - I am not belittling working, financially supporting Islamic causes, or the mujahidin, but I am saying that these are the only real options that are presented to a Muslim man as a mode of living. I do not see anything that instills in our men the realization that they are 1) Muslims, and 2) Muslim men. Whereas for women there are clearly (and rightly) and abundant amount of them - the act of wearing hijab (which is perhaps the most explicit statement affirming that, 'Yes, I am a Muslimah'), lectures, seminars, etc. For this reason, I feel, we have lost many a Muslim male to the attraction of the dunya, and have saved many of our females from that. Lastly, given the space I have had to over-generalize and could not mention other options. Also, here is a link on the idea of "futuwwah" or spiritual chivalry that discusses this idea of misplaced manhood. http://ds.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/misc/drugs.htm (this seems to be down and is being re-edited) And here is perhaps the single best discussion of gender that I have ever seen by a Muslim. http://ds.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/gender.htm Thank you for taking the time to read this and I welcome any comments/corrections/suggestions. Wa salam, Jawad. |
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| Arsalan |
| 06/03/01 at 03:50:24 |
| [slm] Welcome to the board Dr. Tauseef! Another fellow Texan. The Albanyia mafia better watch out! We're growing in number here :) Texans on the board: Arsalan Zahir Fahad Saleema Princess Boy (arsalAN) Harun Zeyn Rsaleh (Rodwan) Taueeya (Tauseef) who'd I miss? So it seems like our brother here has dual interests. Medicine and philosophy :) Very interesting posts indeed. [quote]"IT IS BETTER FOR ONE TO BE WRONG AFTER CONSULTATION THAN TO BE RIGHT WITHOUT HAVING IT.": ABDUL MALIK IBN MARWAN.[/quote]Really nice quote! Btw, you can use bold letters instead of capital letters when you wish to highlight or emphasize something. Capital letters are often disliked because they hurt the eyes, and also because they're often mistaken to be "shouting." To use bold text, simply enclose your text between the symbols "[ b ]" and "[ /b ]" (without the qutoes and spaces). See the Help link for more tips. Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| jannah |
| 06/03/01 at 19:37:10 |
| [wlm] good to see you're still a lurker jawad :) jazakallah khair for your comments, especially on 'manhood', i guess we don't often get to hear the other side of things when we in the msa wonder 'why aren't the brothers doing anything!' anyway true we shouldn't criticize those who are looking for certain things in life, but like you said here, the one's who are going for the hereafter and want to follow the sunnah should follow what the prophet [saw] defined as what to look for in a future spouse: [quote] In the end, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) gave us those options but suggested that we marry those with faith, and his "suggestion" (for lack of a better term) is the shariah, and where true happiness lies. Alhamdulillah... [/quote] |
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| jehad |
| 06/04/01 at 14:51:23 |
| asalm walakum. hmmmmmmmmmmm i was thinking may be the reason for old women in singerpoor being unmarried might not be to do with manhood being misplaced. what if it is to do with womenhood being misplaced. May be the ladies don't want to get married, or are unwilling to marry uneducated men. I think some women don't find younger men attractive? And a lot of them find lower social/financial status men very unattractive? I cant answer these qustions, cause i am not a women. |
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| Anonymous |
| 06/04/01 at 18:13:12 |
| Bismillah and salam Jannah, Could you please post what you learnt on the four great women of Islam whom you mentioned earlier in Akhwat cafe? Jazaki Allahu khairan |
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| jannah |
| 06/04/01 at 18:42:16 |
| [wlm] I'd love to inshallah when I have time.:) (which probably won't be for awhile.. so maybe you can do some research on those women.. their stories are amazing you won't be dissappointed!! and i could hardly describe them as they truly should be) |
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| chachi |
| 06/06/01 at 22:23:31 |
Somedays i TALK LOTS! Otherdays talking is like eating when full it's not needed somedays friends call and i think god this conversation dosn't interest me at all but listen anyway sartre was right hell can be other people and sometimes hell can be being alone |
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| chachi |
| 06/06/01 at 23:01:02 |
I don't think the definition of manhood changes it's what men are required in each age that does the concept that women do housework and men don't never happens in muslim societies.. men do cooking sometimes.. men do cleaning men do ironing etc what men are required to do changes outside in prophets time it was to fight and be a good example in time of tabieen and tabi 'tabieen it was fight against the false philosophy of the greeks and to absorb knowledge and spread it so that muslims could seek what was useful from the 1300's - 1500's there was a mass failure on the part of muslims to fight and to study (ibn khaldun predicted this on the basis that the muslims no longer studied mathematics and the sciences whereas the kuffar did) from the 1500's onwards we see a slight increase eg stuff like the techniques of statistical analysis to crack cyphers were developed and the muslims took the war to the kuffar but there was no meaningful attempt to map the world or to explore it (true droves of non-muslims were still converting whereas conversions from islam to x-tianity were practically zilch) the 1800's marks the period of muslim apologetics the early 1900's muslim 'modernism' the late 1900's thanks to mawdudi, qutb, shariati and khomeini islamic revivalism this century however is the century of DAWAH there is no dar ul islam or dar al harb there is only dar al dawah manhood in this age is the application of all we have learnt and taking islam to the ends of the earth manhood is being the first muslim in the amazon the first in alaska and the first in tierra del fuego and not only that but being the first muslim to give dawah no matter the opposition we are ambassadors of the prophet but manhood is also fighting for every just cause because we are not x-tians it is making a stand the first muslims used their tongues their qalams and their feet we must do the same |
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| jannah |
| 06/07/01 at 00:16:53 |
| [slm] Please continue this discussion in another thread as we've now reached 6 pages! :) |
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