Where's brother Daud

Madina Archives

Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Where's brother Daud
proudtobemuslim

06/01/01 at 12:32:54

Assalam-u-Alaikum,

Remember the Bikers for Allah brother? Where is he? I remember he used to be quite enthusiastic with regards to posts but it seems he just disappeared somewhere in the middle. I had emailed him before but got no reply.

If anybody knows anything please do inform.

Make Dua' for the best.

Wassalam-u-Alaikum,
Uzer

Re: Where's brother Daud
Saleema

06/01/01 at 15:52:08

[slm]

David has left Islam. May Allah guide us all to the truth.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: Where's brother Daud
Fatoosh

06/01/01 at 16:03:15

[slm]

Are you serious Saleema! :( What happened?

Re: Where's brother Daud
Saleema

06/01/01 at 16:07:26

s[lm]

I'm not sure if i should tell you what happened. He told me stuff in confidence. But let's just say that we should all be very careful with what we say on the board here. There are so many people that come to this board with a weak iman or or no iman at all.

[wlm]
Saleema

Destiny’s Child
AbuKhaled

06/01/01 at 17:29:42

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.

What happened may be one thing. Some of us though need to be fearing what is going to happen. Because now those of us who Allah ta’ala might hold accountable – wallahu ta’ala a’lam - on the Day of Judgement better start gearing up a pretty good defence. Time and again warnings are issued about employing hikmah, and time and again this is flouted by some. And so now, some of us - unless our tawba is accepted - may have to answer to Allah ta’ala for what we might have contributed unwittingly to a brother becoming disillusioned with this Deen. Some kind of ambassadors eh? The world watches and we continue regardless. Mayhap that our ignorance - bi’ithnillah ta’ala - leads another astray.

This is why some of our forebearers used to ask Allah ta’ala not only to forgive them for what they knew of sins they had committed, but also of what they didn’t know they had committed.

And how many will say a word about which they don’t realize the consequences, that will take them to the hellfire? As Junayd (ra) said when he was seen in a dream and asked what Allah ta’ala had done with him, “…all that remained were a few rak’ats we had prayed through the night.” This was the currency that was carried through to his (ra) hereafter, wallahu a’lam. Not the endless circular debates and arguments that we protractedly insist on engaging in and pursuing without the necessary knowledge, hikmah and adab preceding us; myself most guilty. And on and on and on it goes…

I sit here and wonder how many have yet to - will ever - learn of the role they maybe played in this brother’s decision. And He (awj) knows best *if* we played a role, for who but He (awj) can apportion blame justly? Nonetheless, may Allah ta’ala protect us all from the excesses of ourselves, and the transgressions which result when making the point becomes more important than consideration. It is like the parent who is more concerned with what s/he wants than caring for his/her newborn. When the child dies the rest kinda pales into insignificance. But at the time it seemed like the most important thing in the world, eh? So now the question remains: was it worth it?

I think we know the answer.

Wallahu ta’ala a’lam, wal iyadhubillah,

Abu Khaled

Re: Where's brother Daud
Learner

06/01/01 at 19:22:12

slm

Jazakallahu khairan Abu Khaled for that crucial reminder.

May Allah (swt) forgive us all (me foremost) for transgressing beyond the limits laid down by Him (swt). Ameen.

wlm

Re: Where's brother Daud
BrKhalid

06/01/01 at 20:22:34

:(

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/01/01 at 22:17:03

Allah swt guides whom he will

and whom he misguides no one can guide

we are merely witnesses and we give dawa

like i said along with all all the other fiqh
we need a fiqh of dawa since we live in dar ad-dawa

Re: Where's brother Daud
destined

06/01/01 at 23:07:07

[slm]

subhanAllah, this is very disheartening news

this made me think of someone...
does anyone know what happened to Harisa *after* she left the board? has anyone kept in contact with her or have her contact info ???

If you do please let me know inshaAllah

Re: Where's brother Daud
Nazia

06/02/01 at 13:23:29

slm,

Harisa had not accepted Islam at the time she was frequenting this board. I have not talked to her recently, but from what she indicated, her religion search had been "put on hold" for the time being.

May Allah guide her and us, to the Sirat-ul-Mustaqeem. Ameen.

Take Care,
Wassalam,
Nazia

Re: Where's brother Daud
Barr

06/03/01 at 08:38:07

Assalamu'alaikum...

My dearest family...

For the past few days, I've been feeling quite disturbed by this piece of news... and frankly... I am feeling very, very scared... that Allah is going to take away the Truth, guidance and the iman from me and those who have witnessed the truth :(

But I thought of sharing something that a brother once shared with me...

If U noticed, my signature is a piece of hadith transmitted by Muslim, written below....

The hadith starts with Abu Amrah, a companion of the Prophet (saw), who asked him, "Tell me something abt Islam, such that I don't have to ask U anymore/ Tell me something about Islam about which I will not ask anyone other than U"

And the Prophet answered "Say: I believe in Allah, then, remain steadfast"

I guess, it has never been easy... to be on this path... and tests to swerve away from our aqidah, and iman would always surface and re-surface... but "a Muslim is a state of becoming... not a state of being" (quoted from Khurram Murad) and we do not know what is our end... sure, we may be this cool Muslim today, so enthusiastic about Islam, never misses our prayers and be so active in da'wah etc etc etc... but who knows... maybe due to our own weaknesses and in our error, our last day is our worst day... for we are lost from guidance.... InshaAllah, may Allah continue to guide Br David. Who knows? His last day, may be his best day... for he may have chosen Islam for eternity, afterall.... Ameen....

wallahua'lam

"Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower"
Surah Ali Imran 3:8

Re: Where's brother Daud
Kathy

06/03/01 at 09:47:48

[quote]For the past few days, I've been feeling quite disturbed by this piece of news... and frankly... I am feeling very, very scared... that Allah is going to take away the Truth, guidance and the iman from me and those who have witnessed the truth [/quote]

Me too....

.... And more frightened of my words and how they affect others.
Re: Where's brother Daud
assing

06/03/01 at 16:29:02

Allahu'lmustaan. This is very sad to hear, because just recently the brother crossed my mind. However, i we should not always be so quick to put the blame on other muslims {whether they did something wrong or not} if someone apostates. For even if we assume someone was harsh with the brother {or anyone else for that matter} thus causing him to leave the fold of islam, this absolutely not excuse that one can present in front of Allah when he stands on that terrifying day being questioned about why he chose kufr after being guided to eeman. Naa'm, we should always try to be gentle with our muslim brothers especially if they make a mistake as the messenger {sallahu alayhi wasallam} treated the sahabahs when they did something incorrectly. But, if a new muslim {or even one who was born a muslim} is treated in a harsh manner, we should at least realize that this may be a test from Allah (eventhough we do not condone this type of behavior, but if it happens........) , as Allah says in surah Al Ankabut:

"In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
1. Alif Lām Mīm.
2. Do people think that they will be left alone because they say: "We believe," and will not be tested.
3. And We indeed tested those who were before them. And Allāh will certainly make (it) known (the truth of) those who are true, and will certainly make (it) known (the falsehood of) those who are liars.",

and as He subhaanahu wata'ala says in a next ayah:

"And we made some of you a fitnah for others, will you be patient?!".

Hence, we have so many ayaat and ahadeeth showing us how to be firm upon this haqq, especially in time of fitnah whereby one is constantly being tried and provoked by both non-muslim and muslim. Thus you find scholars like imam Al Bukhari put under the chapter heading:

Chapter
The one who chooses being beaten, killed, and humiliation over kufr

Narrated Khabbab bin Al-Art:
We complained to Allah's Apostle (about our state) while he was leaning against his sheet cloak in the shade of the Ka'ba. We said, "Will you ask Allah to help us? Will you invoke Allah for us?" He said, "Among those who were before you a (believer) used to be seized and, a pit used to be dug for him and then he used to be placed in it. Then a saw used to be brought and put on his head which would be split into two halves. His flesh might be combed with iron combs and removed from his bones, yet, all that did not cause him to revert from his religion. By Allah! This religion (Islam) will be completed (and triumph) till a rider (traveler) goes from San'a' (the capital of Yemen) to Hadramout fearing nobody except Allah and the wolf lest it should trouble his sheep, but you are impatient."

Look at what at these people had to endure before us, and inspite of that they remained steadfast upon the deen, now you have muslims as soon as someone reminds them of their beard or hijab in the case of a sister, then this is enough reason stop going to that masjid. Don't misunderstand me now, i am in no way approving what goes on in some communities, yes there is always room to improve on our akhlaq, but at the same time this pressure a muslim may encounter sometimes is no reason to leave the jamaat, or even worse the deen as a whole.

Furthermore, this reminds me of a situation of a sister i knew back in Trinidad who was one of the most active sisters in the community, hijaab, niqaab, the whole 9, then a few years ago i heard she apostated and is living with a kuffar man now. Now some people say she left the deen because her husband used to beat her alot, which is quite true and is also very oppressive. However, do you all think this action is a justifiable reaction to her husband's beatings? Especially, when we look at the excellent example laid forth by Aasiyah {one of the only four women whom the messenger said to have attained perfection in this dunya} whereby Phara'un used to torture her as the scholars of history have stated, and in spite of this did she decide to "get even at him" by putting on minis, chase men and "enjoy her freedom", like the previously mention sister?
But rather as Allah describes her reaction to the tortures of Phara'un as in surah At Tahrim:
" And Allāh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun (Pharaoh), when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his work, and save me from the people who are Zālimūn".

Now check that out! She could have said easily choose riches and pomp that comes along with Phara'uns' kufr over eeman, under the excuse that Phara'un caused her to do that, just as you may find someone apostates using as an excuse for their kufr societal pressure either from muslim or kuffar, amongst other reasons.

Furthermore, when we see occurrences like these, this should propel us to truly ask the one who changes man heart to implant our hearts on this haqq. This is why the messenger {sallahu alayhi wasallam} informed us in the great hadeeth:

narrated by Abdullah bin Masud, who said : the messenger of Allah, and he is the truthful, the believed narrated to us :
"Verily the creation of each one of you is brought together in his mother's belly for forty days in the form of seed, then he is a clot of blood for a like period, then a morsel of flesh for a like period, then there is sent to him the angel who blows the breath of life into him and who is commanded about four matters: to write down his means of livelihood, his life span, his actions, and whether happy or unhappy. By Allah, other than Whom there is no god, verily one of you behaves like the people of Paradise until there is but an arm's length between him and it, and that which has been written over takes him and so he behaves like the people of Hell-fire and thus he enters it; and one of you behaves like the people of Hell-fire until there is but an arm's length between him and it, and that which has been written over takes him and so he behaves like the people of Paradise and thus he enters it."
related by Bukhari and Muslim

Allhahu akbar, Allahu akbar!!!!!!!!!!! This goes to show Allah is truly the knower of all things, and what we may assume of someone may be incorrect. And in the the closer it comes to the day of judgment this phenomenon of apostasy will get worse, as the messenger {sallahu alayhi wasallam} said where "A person will go to sleep a mu'min and wake up a kaafir, an a person will wake up a mu'min and go to sleep a kaafir", and we seek refuge in Allah from going astray after being guided, ameen.

As we are all aware of even during the time of the messenger {sallahu alayhi wasallam} and right after his death especially man people apostated. This is why during the khalifah of Abu Bakr the histotian noted that the people who apostated {when they refused to give to zakat to him and he fougt them} way outnumbered the muslims who were fighting with Abu Bakr, something like 8000 on the side of the muslims to 40,000 if i can remember correctly. Alhamdulillah they were defeated and many returned to the deen.

In summary what i am trying to say is that in no way we should be pleased if a person apostate after being guided nor should we immidiatly look around and blame other muslim for this person actions, for on yam il qiyyamah when that slave stands before and he is question by His Lord, do you think he it is a reasonable excuse that he tells his Lord most high he went back to kufr becuase the muslims were harsh on him or just neglected him? Do you think Allah will accept thim from him, thus he will be saved from the torment of the fire?

But rather we should hope our brother enters back into the deen, and also use the incident to examine ourselves, our intentions, who do we take the knowledge of the deen from, for not everytime someone is fluent in arabic, speaks well or has a big beard means that this person is on the sunnah, because this can be amongst other factors people deviate or just leave the deen totally i.e. the person who taught them. And we ask Allah to keep our hearts firm on this deen, and not to let us die except as muslimoon, as Yusuf {alayhi as salaam} supplicated:

"My Lord! You have indeed bestowed on me of the sovereignty, and taught me the interpretation of dreams; The (only) Creator of the heavens and the earth! You are my Walī (Protector, Helper, Supporter, Guardian) in this world and in the Hereafter, cause me to die as a Muslim, and join me with the righteous."

Wallahu' l mustaan.

NS
Re: Where's brother Daud
Saleema

06/04/01 at 00:26:39

[slm]

I'm just talking to Harisa right now. As for brother Daud.... I don't know what to say except that I feel like I somehow contributed to his leaving Islam and may Allah forgive me and all of us.

We should be careful about disucssing controversial issues whether it has something to do with religion, politics, war or the if blue is better than green.

[wlm]
Saleema

Strawmen and Ironies
AbuKhaled

06/04/01 at 15:24:04

Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah.

<However, i we should not always be so quick to put the blame on other muslims {whether they did something wrong or not} if someone apostates.>

Nothing was said with definitive attribution, wal iyadhubillah. In fact, not only should we not apportion blame so quickly, but we should not *presume* the presence or absence of blame, until we know the details of the matter. So unless one is intimate with the situation s/he is not in any kind of a position to be dismissing or asserting blame. And more than this, even if blame exists then it is not one of cause-effect anyway, for this is an anathema to how we view such matters.

<For even if we assume someone was harsh with the brother {or anyone else for that matter} thus causing him to leave the fold of islam,>

This is a strawman, for if we were to assume this, then given that it is completely irrelevant to this specific case, the assumption is redundant, with respect.

<this absolutely not excuse that one can present in front of Allah when he stands on that terrifying day being questioned about why he chose kufr after being guided to eeman.”

Again, we should not presume that such an “excuse” will be forwarded unless we know the reasons for why the Brother left the Deen. What matters to me personally is whether I bear a degree of responsibility. And whether what I might bear has any relevance to what is proffered as a justification in the hereafter by the one questioned for his ridda [apostasy]. Let us keep focus. What we need to remember throughout all this is that not everyone is upon the same degree of iman, and so whilst we may be able to accept certain truths, someone else may have a hard time stomaching the same fact. Let us not digress from the point, for the point for us is not how such a one will stand before Allah ta’ala, but what led to that situation, regardless of the decision being the wrong one.

<But, if a new muslim {or even one who was born a muslim} is treated in a harsh manner, we should at least realize that this may be a test from Allah>

The issue is not what we need to realise, but what the one facing the confusion didn’t, by virtue of the fact of his newness to Al-Islam. Should we expect that one who may have just learned how to make wudu to appreciate that what has befallen them is a test? We are talking about someone who is new to the Deen, not someone who left it having been very learned, and Muslim for a long time, with a firmness in iman, and that which stems from this. And the question for me is that whatever befell him it was a test, so that is a given. What matters is my possible role in being of the means that my Lord (awj) used in testing him. That it was a test does not detract from the responsibility and accountability.

<Hence, we have so many ayaat and ahadeeth showing us how to be firm upon this haqq, especially in time of fitnah whereby one is constantly being tried and provoked by both non-muslim and muslim.>

All of which is great advice. Sadly though it is misdirected. The one who needs to read this is the one who left the fold. And whilst it’s a good reminder to those of us that remain, the point is that such a lesson needed to be taught to the one who faced the buffets in his iman, not the ones who are comfortable in theirs. The whole point is that maybe – bi’ithnillah – if he had *known* that which you are stating, then maybe this disastrous situation would not have come about, wallahu a’lam. You are quoting sources, references, incidents etc. as a given, but the point is that they weren’t a given to the one who had only recently entered the room of Islam. He had yet to learn these truths, so that which we might have proceeded upon as an unstated fact - because since we knew it it needed not to be said - could not have been presumed for one in a situation that was not akin to ours. It is essentially because such a point is not always borne in mind that outcomes like this come about sometimes, unfortunately.

<Look at what at these people had to endure before us, and inspite of that they remained steadfast upon the deen, now you have muslims as soon as someone reminds them of their beard or hijab in the case of a sister, then this is enough reason stop going to that masjid.>

How many of them embody the understanding that you are relating to us? And how many behave in such a defeated manner *because* they don’t? *That* is the issue here. That whilst we acknowledge how we’re meant to be, that can only be when we have the knowledge that leads us to realise this. But what of the one who does not know that (yet)?

I’m not making any excuses for ridda [apostasy], but pointing out that the issue here is not the istiqama, but the absence of the knowledge that provides the platform for istiqama to flourish.

<but at the same time this pressure a muslim may encounter sometimes is no reason to leave the jamaat, or even worse the deen as a whole.>

Do *they* know that though? Those who come to Islam are not from one homogenous whole, they come from many disparate strands, each with their own story, and backgrounds. All of which cannot be just dropped overnight, wallahu a’lam. Whose responsibility is it to nurture them? The ones who know better, no? Can the one who doesn’t know, due to his newness in the Deen, be blamed for not knowing? Learning is a process, it takes time. During that time, remnants of a previous lifetime (i.e. that prior to Islam) may remain, and influence one’s behaviour, opinions, outlook. We need to be aware of this, and incorporate such awareness into our discourse, by being careful and mindful of the ramifications of our discussions.

<Now some people say she left the deen because her husband used to beat her alot, which is quite true and is also very oppressive. However, do you all think this action is a justifiable reaction to her husband's beatings?>

Do you think no excuse could *ever* exist just because it may not in this case, or in the cases you’ve encountered? I think we’re missing the point here entirely. Firstly, do you imagine that to a Sister who is suffering like so, regularly, who fears for the very life she lives, who is frightened from the proximity of the one who is supposed to be her protector, and her every moment is lived in anxiety of a beating, that some pithy comment from someone about apostasy never being justified will affect her at all? *She* is the one living through that which can others can so pompously sermonize, from a safe distance. That self-righteous indignation serves her not one iota. Sometimes I wonder what kinds of lives we lead. How many of us have been up close with such terrible realities, that we can issue forth our judgements so easily. And how many of us have the luxury of distance from such realities, that affords us our cosy analyses, and allows us to dispense our opinions and judgements without intimating from firsthand experience what horrendous realities some of our beloved Brothers/Sisters undergo. Really, where is our sensitivity, culled from the Prophetic example?

When Islam to a Muslim becomes impossible to entangle from the actions of Muslims that they experience/witness, that inability to dissociate can lead to such terrible life-affecting bad decisions. I’m *not* justifying it, just explaining it. I know of many cases where this type of inability to dissociate exists, and for a number of reasons which are very deeply rooted. We need to become attuned to such realities too.

Why do you think that some Muslims - for instance - who *know* that suicide is haram, *still* want to commit it? What kind of a life must one be living that leads them to want to do that which they know is so displeasing to Allah ta’ala? Yet one could be forgiven for perceiving that some Muslims think that by ramming the fact that suicide is haram down this persons throat is somehow going to convince them not to do it. Yeah, real astute.

Secondly, the examples we refer to (like the ones you’ve mentioned) are of those who had reached the pinnacles of iman, tawakkul’Allah, etc. That we are striving to be like them – in their embodiment of our Beloved Prophet [saw] – is a proof that we are not yet like them. So the comparison of what they were like and what we are like should be one of aspiration, not rejoinder. It is because we aren’t like them that such sad occurrences arise. Is it not unfair to imply how we should be given similar circumstances, when that scaffolding which underpinned why they were as they were was not yet erected? Should not that be our point of concern? Before invoking idealism, let us work on the reality to create that ideal. Else you're comparing a house that was built to one that was being built.

The issue is not that ridda is never justified, for it not being justified helps us not one jot in redressing the situation. All we’re doing by reiterating the same sentiment, is teaching our grandma to suck eggs. In other words, we *know* that already, so how does saying it again, aid this situation? What is important here is prevention, and cure. That ridda is not justified is not a preventative rejoinder to one such as this woman, or one in Daud’s situation. Do you think that just telling someone that ridda is never justified will suddenly and magically convince them not to take that drastic step? No. Rather, what may help are all these other beautiful points you’ve made, which is what will fill in the gap in the understanding that allows them to be so pessimistic. Relating incidents that allow us to know how to be when faced with such situations provides one with the knowledge of how to be, and may allow you to imply ‘See, this is how they were in the past. This is how we should be’. But the key here is that the one who took the step to leave the Deen didn’t know that, else perhaps – bi’ithnillah – he might not have. So an irony is borne through the mention of these excellent examples. The whole point is that it was likely ignorance of such examples that allowed such a decision to take place, so using them to state the normative case is redundant when we are dealing with the positive (not normative) reality. You’re addressing an ideal of what we need to be like, when the knowledge of that was so very absent. That is the point akhi. So no parallel exists. Yes, if the brother had *known* all this and *still* made his choice, then your points would stand. But he didn’t and he did. And that is what – bi’ithnillah – made the difference, wallahu a’lam. It is precisely this kind of presumption, ironically, that could have aided in his undoing. All this that is being cited post-ridda to negate his course of action is what he should have been made aware of pre-ridda in order to prevent it, bi’ithnillah ta’ala.

<do you think he it is a reasonable excuse that he tells his Lord most high he went back to kufr becuase the muslims were harsh on him or just neglected him?>

This is why I earlier wrote about knowing the details before we proceed, because all that the above sentence addresses is a strawman. Neither of these factors were involved here, it was something entirely different. So before we start to address realities, let us know what the reality was, lest we address that which isn’t even at issue.

Verily Allah ta’ala suffices us,

Abu Khaled

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/04/01 at 19:01:44

what we suffer is as nothing compared to what the sahabi and tabi'yeen suffered

hadrat saeed was asked whole series of questions as part of his 'trial' and then asked 'shall i forgive you' and he said 'your forgiveness is not real'

then he said to hajjaj 'allah swt will take you' and hajjaj smiled and said 'i have been threatened by better than you' (because he had killed loads of the tabi'yeen and muslims) and hadrat saeed said

'your right..they were better ..they forgave you..i'm not going to ..i will pray to allah swt and he will remove you from the necks of the people'... then he asked to pray the 2 rakats and when his head was cut off the blood would not stop flowing . Hajjaj said 'why is this why does it continue to flow' and his ministers said 'he was absolutely calm at the moment of death so the blood did not freeze in his body'

for the next several days hajjaj the man who had killed thousands upon thousands saw hadrat saeed every night in dreams trying to grab his legs and drag him into his grave and he woke screaming in fear
until i think 10 days later he died

Re: Where's brother Daud
humble_muslim

06/06/01 at 05:39:23

AA

Beautifully said Brother Abu Khaled.

Chachi, how can you compare Daud, a new muslim living amongst the kuffar, with the Sahaba and Tabieen, who were living amongst each other, and were in the prescene of the Prophet (SAW) ? Why are some people being so harsh to him here ? Why is there not sympathy for him ? When I read he had left Islam, I almost cried.

NS
Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/06/01 at 09:53:02

akhi ppl left islam even in the time of the prophet

we can cry for bad muslims
but if his niyyah isn't correct then allah swt dosn't guide him
if allah swt believes that somebody has good niyyah he will move heaven and earth to guide him ..remember the story of the asassin who killed 99 ppl? and the earth was contracted for him?

if on the other hand somebody hasn't got good niyyah then NOTHING we do will cause allah swt to guide him
remember members of the prophets family? we give dawah akhi we don't force ppl and we can't correct ppl's hearts

incidentally the tabiyeen never met the prophet
if this man saw one good muslim and he considered islam and became a muslim then that was his gain but if he changed his faith then it wasn't on the basis of rationality because islam by definition IS rationality therefore he decided to follow own desires

may allah swt guide him back but ultimately the destiny is with allah
swt and each soul shall get what it deserves we are not as merciful as allah swt and if this person deserves mercy allah swt will show it far more than we can..in allah swt mercy we trust and in his mercy we escape from his wrath

Re: Where's brother Daud
BrKhalid

06/06/01 at 10:09:52

Asalaamu Alaikum

[quote] but if his niyyah isn't correct then allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala doesn't guide him
[/quote]

Allah guides whom He wills.

As to *why* Allah [swt] guides some people and not others, is something which He only knows in His infinite wisdom.

[quote] may allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala guide him back
[/quote]

Ameen

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/06/01 at 18:48:41

?!! you've forgotten akhi allah inclines towards those who incline towards him..your trying to make it into a mystery and therefre making it seem as if allah swt is capricious

allah swt judges intentions akhi don't include the actions within the destiny your actions are pre-destined your intentions are your own
..they were sects that said otherwise and they are just that..sects

agreed may allah swt guide him back
being a bad muslim is one thing
renouncing the shahada is another

incidentally do you know the hadith where allah swt assembled mankind in the place out of time and some gazed at the world and some at him and some back and forth? (i can't remember the reference maybe you do)
Re: Where's brother Daud
BrKhalid

06/06/01 at 19:30:23

Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

My point Br wahid was that I think one starts treading on dangerous ground if one begins stating Allah does something for a reason.

[quote] if his niyyah isn't correct then allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala doesn't guide him [/quote]

[quote] if allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala believes that somebody has good niyyah he will move heaven and earth to guide him [/quote]

[quote] if on the other hand somebody hasn't got good niyyah then NOTHING we do will cause allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala to guide him [/quote]

[quote] allah inclines towards those who incline towards him [/quote]

[quote] allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala judges intentions [/quote]

All of the above attribute something to Allah.

I’m not commenting on the above quotes in terms of content Br wahid. At the end of the day Allah knows best.

My point being is that we should all fear attributing something to Allah, lest we make an error in our ignorance.

Re: Where's brother Daud
BroHanif

06/06/01 at 19:43:27

A.W.W.

In the name of Allah, the most merciful the most gracious.

Abu Khaled beautiful post.

I think one thing we muslims really forget, I don't know about others but I'm talking to myself as I post this. One thing that really upsets me and makes me sick is the fact that we use such language that is beyond belief at times, some of us including me are really harsh to others, full of pride and are happy to boast our limited knowledge.

What gets me really is how my understanding of Islam is so low and so shallow yet I feel that I can easily put a hadith or fatwah on the message board. This is without the consideration of the factors of the person to whom the fatwah or advice is being passed to.

Another thing that upsets me is my lack of understanding the noble quran, even though I read it every day I find its teachings are not really entering my heart. Let me give myself a few examples.

AL BAQARAH (2:83)

And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish worship and pay the poor-due. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse.

AN NISAA' (4:5)

Give not unto the foolish (what is in) your (keeping of their) wealth, which Allah hath given you to maintain; but feed and clothe them from it, and speak kindly unto them.

AN NISAA' (4:8)

And when kinsfolk and orphans and the needy are present at the division (of the heritage), bestow on them therefrom and speak kindly unto them.

AN NISAA' (4:9)

And let those fear (in their behaviour toward orphans) who if they left behind them weak offspring would be afraid for them. So let them mind their duty to Allah, and speak justly.

AL ISRA (17:23)

Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him, and (that ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age with thee, say not "Fie" unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word.

AL ISRA (17:53)

Tell My bondmen to speak that which is kindlier. Lo! the devil soweth discord among them. Lo! the devil is for man an open foe.

Sometimes I speak with a tongue which is sharper than the sharpest sword, this boneless wonder is so powerful that it can break the hearts of so many people, and the bad thing about it is that I wouldn't even know the effect since I'm not in front of the person telling them my dodgy fatwas or advice.
Strange I remember a verse of the Quran it goes something like this:

AL ZALZALAH (99:7)

And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

AL ZALZALAH (99:8)

And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.

YUNUS (10:61)

And thou (Muhammad) art not occupied with any business and thou recitest not a Lecture from this (Scripture), and ye (mankind) perform no act, but We are Witness of you when ye are engaged therein. And not an atom's weight in the earth or in the sky escapeth your Lord, nor what is less than that or greater than that, but it is (written) in a clear Book.

Yep its slowly coming back. Opps all those postings that I;ve done here, what I've said, what I meant. This book seems to be pretty clear in whats going to be said to me on the day of judegement, did my words bring people closer to Islam.? This thing is on the web would mean my mistakes being seen by everyone, however I still don't listen to advice.

Perhaps I should look at the teachings of the prophets of Allah, now wasn't Musa A.S. commanded to Speak good to Pharoh.?

Hmm, perhpas I should learn from humanitys greatest teacher, Prophet Saws. When that young man came to him and said that he wanted to commit zina and asked for Prophet saws permission. What a noble answer the prophet saws gave, did he use harsh words, no. did he thump him in the company of the shabas, no. Did he do any act which upset the young youth, NO. What about the time when that person relieved himself in Masjid-E-Nabvi, hmm did the prophet give him a goading, did the Shabah beat him senseless, NO, was any action done by the prophet of Allah that upset that man, NO. In fact in these two examples weren't people better off, didn't the young man have a dislike for Zina, dind;t the second man accept Islam and invite his whole clan(village) to Islam.
Didn't people come into Islam through the character of Prophet Saws, ins't the chracter of every single person, dawah? Then why is my character so weak and not the true spirit of Islam.

If only I had the decency and sense to post stuff that invited people to Islam, that were not harsh words, but were good words, that allowed people to become stronger in Islam. That helped each and every single one of us. Arn't kind words Sadqah...??? Then why is it that I find it hard to say soft and kind words ? I don't know why, arn't we muslims brothers to each other, isn't the blood of muslims sacred, surely if the blood is sacred then what about the heart of a muslim or non muslim. Isn't it the case the Kabah can be built and rebuilt but once a persons heart is broken it can never be repaired.

May Allah forgive me for my ill postings that I have done in the past and those that I will do in the future. And I also seak forgiveness from you all if I have upset you in the past or say something in the future that may upset you.

The story of brother daud has really upset me. *sigh*

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/06/01 at 20:10:40

Akhi hanif

note it is not only those who are 'liberal' muslims that is to say those who are bad muslims who we should try to be gentle with it is those brothers who are 'extreme' muslims

i've noticed that some muslims have made it a habit to be harsh on brothers who go to extremes in islam because they are surrounded by situations of despair and needless to say scholars are THEMSELVES divided over whther their actions are wrong or right and yet we have this attitude of lets be nice and NOT warn bad muslims.. forgive me if i'm wrong but many nations were destroyed before us because they refused to warn people not because they overdid religion!

there are two extremes in islamic action
1)those who believe in extremity towards literalism in the quran and sunna and who become Khawarij . Who's characteristic was they were nice to the kaffirs and slaughtered the weak muslims

2) those who believe in extreme towards metaphorism in the quran and sunna and who become mujia. Who's characteristic is (since they still exist) they are nice to the kaffir and slaughter the misguided muslim
eg see egypt , jordan, saudia for examples

jazakallah

Re: Where's brother Daud
Saleema

06/06/01 at 20:20:17

[slm]

David left Islam because he was shocked that the destruction of Buddhist statues was being endorsed by the Muslims. Keep in mind that he hadn't been a Muslim for very long. That he was a former Buddhist. He had war issues, he had fought in the Vietnam war. When everyone was debating foolishly, including me, he joined the debate too and said that we should be tolerant of other religions. I was somewhat uncomfortable at first when the issue came up because I didn't think that it was wise to debate on such a hot topic in front of a new Muslim raised in the west, one who was a former Buddhist. But then I couldn't hold back any longer and decided to join instead of reminding everyone and myself to take precautions before we say anything. I also thought that David seemed to ardent and so firm in faith that I was just over reacting. But my intuition had been right unfortunately.

When David joined the Debate, we ignored his background and were preaching to him condesendingly. I think he was hurt by that. He also felt that to be accepted, to be like everyone else, to be like his Muslim brothers, he had to do everything that they did. He did not give himself time to grow into his new found faith. To question things, to actually truly understand something before deciding to follow it. It seems as if his Muslim friends were not very helpful either. No one told him to take it a step at a time, to perfect one thing and then move on to the other. Mos of his knowledge, he had gotten it from books. And our debate about such a sensitive issue helped him to be further disalusioned.

He also did not feel very uncomfortable with the fact that his wife was not a Muslim, that she was a *kaffir*, that you must hate a kaffir. That was what he read and heard. His heart was torn apart, he thought that it was not really possible to love a "*mushrikeen*" and love Allah at the same time.

When he came to the board, we all congradulated him and were happy that another person has joined the Ummah. I could sense that there was something wrong with some fo the things that he said, the clues were subtle and clear, he was confused on a matter of issues.

We should all read the book by Jeffery Lang titled "Even Angels Ask" to try to understand where non-Muslims from the western world come from. Why do they think the way that they do even after becoming Muslims on certain issues even if their faith is strong and they have been Muslims for many years now? If that can have a profound effect on someone, imagine what a new convert must feel like? The emotional turmoil that he must be going through.

I don't think I'm making any sense. I have so much to say and I don't know how to put my thoughts down in an organized way, because I feel guilty and secondly I lack the time right now.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: Where's brother Daud
Kathy

06/06/01 at 20:24:32

slm

You made much sense... I have been there. I am so greatful to Allah swt that I left my community soon after becoming Muslim. They too were ruthless.

My Islam grew in Chicago- where I found a niche that accepted and then guided me.

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/06/01 at 20:47:35

i agree what you said made sense

i basically grew up with new muslims through university
and listening to their concerns i can understand
i find it starnge though that david being a ex-buddhist
didn't know that the buddha forbade ppl making statues of him
most western buddhists are VERY aware of that whereas eastern
buddhists are less philosophical and more religious buddhists

the issue with his wife was she x-tian?

Re: Where's brother Daud
BroHanif

06/07/01 at 05:25:05

A.W.W.

My dear brother Chachi, I'm not arguing with you, merley I'm saying we should talk with soft words and understand situations that people are in. Being on the web has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are you can give dawah to anyone in the world. The disadvantage is that its very hard to know a persons situation i.e. background until you talk to them for quite some time.

My sitatuion is different from yours and yours to mine. That is the point, you don't know what my heart is like and I don't know yours. So lets separate the wheat from the chaff, if you invite to good use polite words if you forbid evil again use polite words. Also try to gain the persons heart, what is the point of dawah when we don't love each other as muslims, when we have hasad, jealousy and all evils in our heart when we give dawah.? How many times have we prayed for the brothers/sisters rectification in thajud...?? In fact how many times have we remembered the people who we give dawah in our duas...?. Do we give each other hadyas/kind words/encouragement to increase love and brotherhood, to increase their iman. ?

Thats all I'm saying bro, and lets not start to bash our muslims countries, we know there is a problem but instead of bashing em, lets work together as muslims, as one brotherhood, as one ummah. Instead of dissing em first and then working for a solution. How can we have an Islamic Emirate, if we ourselves are hell bent on dissing each other.

The choice is mine, the choice is yours, the choice is for all the people here, whether we work together and raise the flag of Islam or we bicker and create disunity, hurt and sighs amongst our ummah.

Salaam

Re: Where's brother Daud
Spring

06/07/01 at 08:12:42

Bismillah hir Rahman nir Rahim

[slm]

Dearest brothers and sisters,

Sometimes its not about winning the arguement, its about winning the heart.

Re: Where's brother Daud
bhaloo

06/07/01 at 09:11:44

slm

Alhumdullilah that was very well said Bro. Hanif. That is advise that we all MUST follow.

Re: Where's brother Daud
humble_muslim

06/07/01 at 11:14:20

AA

Khalid, Hanif, very beuatifully put.

Right now I feel very upset. I'm not sure what to say. I think it's time to stop using the word "kaafir" in such a derigaroity term on this board. It's clear now that it upsets those muslims who still have non-muslim relatives.

I was just reading the hadith about the man who lengthedn Fajr too much, and people complained to the Prohpet SAW. The hadith says that this made the Prophet (SAW) FURIOUS, becuse people were trying to do good, and the extremes of other people were putting those people off. Seems that this happened with Daud.

Chachi, I think you are being VERY condescending. I would chill out if I were you. You don't want any more people on this board to have the same fate as Daud. From the hadith I quoted above, it is VERY clear that the Prophet SAW did NOT use the same logic that you are using Chachi. Also look at th example of the Prophet SAW with Abu Talib, with Umar, even Abu Jahl. He never said "To hell with them, they will never be guided, Allah is not inclined to them", etc. NO : he continued to pray to Allah SWT to guide them.

I pray to Allah SWT that he guides Daud back to Islam, Ameen. I urge all of you out there to do the same : while he still lives, there is still a chance that he comes back.

NS
Re: Where's brother Daud
jannah

06/07/01 at 11:53:33

Good points brother humble,

it is definitely sad to hear about how Daud was affected here when we've been trying to make this board a different kind of place. everywhere you go on the net they're just spouting ....garbage.. either people arguing endlessly, missionary stuff, etc it's just very sad. this is supposed to be a 'support' board.. i don't know how many times we can emphasize that. it keeps wanting to turn into a fiqh board but we keep trying to fight the tide. the problem with fiqh is that none of us are qualified to make opinions on it.. and sometimes we unknowingly make harsh pronouncements that a real scholar would better qualify. so many times things look so black and white to us, for example sometimes we feel guilty about choosing a certain way, but then when you go to a true scholar and ask them the question it feels so enlightening. your heart feels light afterwards. that's what true knowledge of islam does for you. islam is so... expandable..elastic.. but u don't really know this until you learn more and more about it. the average new muslim/person coming back to islam feels everything is black and white.. islam says this.. and that's it.. but they haven't gotten into the true understanding of it.

anyway i think that we just need to be more careful about what we say --think first on the effect it will have on people -- if it's negative DONT POST IT -- this isn't like your right to say whatever you want because you think it's right -- always think what if you are wrong and you said this and something happenned because of it....this will make us all think twice.

and i think we really need to moderate things more which is very difficult. as a moderator we may feel something is offensive but then don't do anything because we might think we're the only one or maybe we don't realize something is offensive to someone or is affecting them negatively? how do we keep the idea of free expression but curb what we think are posts not written in the right way.

so we really do need more people to write to us when they find something wrong/offensive/detrimental to others. so please do so!

[wlm]
Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/07/01 at 17:02:53

salaam
my last post on this topic

i agree with being polite to people
but you should not state to them something untrue just to please them

secondly muslim thought has different tendencies
this is because times change and therefore the medicine must be different for different people so one muslim might emphasize a particular aspect of islam, the other another . for instance during ibn taymiyyah's time it was necessary to revive the idea of jihad which is why ibn taymiyyah critisised some of the quietest views so strongly...allah swt has many attributes, mercy being the formost.

However no amount of politeness will move me to call the now deceased king of morrocco anything BUT a kaffir because he drank orange juice on tv during ramadan and stated that ramadan was no longer necessary and anybody who says that you should not call him a kaffir is inviting others to kuffar because he is likewise blurring the boundaries between the halaal and haraam

and no amount of knowledge of fiqh will turn sheikh su'ad jalal (aka sheikh stella) into a muslim for declaring beer halaal unless he repents

thus what i'm saying can be summarised as be polite to people but don't tell them other than that you believe that idols and shirk lead people to hell because if you do you are guilty of hiding the truth
and you are misleading them

wasalaam

i base what i state on the muslim creed as stated in article 9 of fiqh al akbar

Re: Where's brother Daud
jannah

06/07/01 at 21:49:47

Chachi no one is saying say anything that is untrue, it is the way we say things and the fact that most people say stuff and don't include *all* of the aspects surrounding that issue and therefore just make a bad impression about Islam.

For example you just declared two people kaffir in your last post and accused others of going to Hell. Whether that was right or not, what was your point of saying it? Did anyone ask you about those people? Say someone reads your post and says 'oh fasting last year was really hard for me and i only fasted 8 days, so i must be a kaffir.. forget this islam stuff it is too hard' or let's say someone read your post and since all it talks about is kaffirs and going to hell thinks that's what islam is about... you didn't include any other opinions but your own. Looks like anyone in islam anyone can declare that other people are going to Hell.

Another example is your post in the "love and marry" thread. If that was the only response posted in that thread or if that girl only reads your answer you know what she is going to do? she is going to click close on her browser and go marry her guy at a christian church and ignore everyone the rest of her life that calls her to islam because she already knows she did something very wrong so what's the point. So you've just helped someone go far, far from Islam and perhaps her children too as well. How did that happen when you said something that was in effect "correct"? Because you didn't take the situation into account and you didn't give her advice on how to come back to Islam in a practical way. Do you really think she will just say, forget it when she has dating him for 7 years? Do you really think she doesn't know it's not allowed in Islam?? Come on, nothing is black and white, Islam doesn't work like that. Would a real scholar say 'khalas it's haram', heck no... go ahead and ask any scholar her same question. They will give her so many alternatives and ideas on how to come back to Islam, including within that why it's wrong. If you notice arshad's post told her quite clearly the same thing you did, but in a way that was inviting her to Islam. In such a way would a real scholar be gentle and kind and OPEN The way to ISLAM for her, still saying something that is "correct".

Btw perhaps you should edit your above post because takfir is not allowed on this board.
Re: Where's brother Daud
Saleema

06/08/01 at 01:38:03

[slm]

David knew that Buddah didn't ask to be worshiped and that he didnt' declare himself as God. His issue was about religious tolerance. He left Islam before we all found out the historical facts about those statues. For instance that the british used it as a target practice or that the ppl asked to have them destroyed because the british were spending money on them to preserve it but weren't giving aid to starving children that didnt' live too far away from the statues.

We all jumped to conclusions. we shouldnt' have done that. May Allah guide him back and us, and may he forgive all of us. ameen

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: Where's brother Daud
chachi

06/08/01 at 20:56:57

jannah let me get this absolutely clear you are saying that
it is forbidden to call somebody who says beer is halaal a kaafir on this board

hence you are stating that the position of this board is that what imam abu hanifah stated in article 9 of al fiqh al akbar is not allowed

that you are in affect disallowing people from doing the halaal

remember that one of the prophets wives asked him to stop eating honey and he did and allah swt said why have you stopped doing the halaal

i want you to be absolutely clear and think this over before you state this is the position of this board THAT NOBODY CAN BE CALLED A KAFFIR and therefore there is no call to invite the good and FORBID (not debate ) the evil

the quote below is taking from nida'ul islam on the characteristics of the Murjia sect - check the webpage below

"On the religious guidelines : They claimed Islam for someone that has been qualified as being Kafir by Allah and His Prophet (s.a.w.). They also allowed him to marry a Muslim woman, when in the true religion it is a corrupted marriage"
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/17/murjiah1.htm

and the consequences of this are that
"Theref ore, the preachers of Islam ought to shake the dust of laziness and fight all innovations, the apparent ones and the hidden ones. They should acknowledge and learn the Sunnah of the Prophet (s.a.w.), as his guidance is the best, and all roads to Allah ar e closed but through Muhammad (s.a.w.). This Bid'ah has affected the process of calling to Allah and people got confused as Muslims and Kafirs were tangled together and the right and wrong doers mingled. This has led to weakening the principle of loyalty and getting away from Kufur. It has also weakened the prevention of wrong doing and consequently led to shaking the foundations of the Muslim nation."
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/18/murjiah2.htm

remember that although hadrat ali and even hadrat umar counselled hadrat abu bakr to be lenient towards those who had not paid their zakat he still waged war on them till them submitted and paid the zakat you can critisize the taliban all you like but they are trying to uphold the sharia and no scholar has been able to show any proof from the quran or sunna that what they did was not perfectly in accord with the sunna
and if you hesitate to implement the sharia because you consider what the kaffir will say then remember that they will not be happy with you till you are like them

if you state that this is the position of this board i cannot and will not be posting on this board further because it does not call to the good and forbid the evil but engages in falsafa without sharia
and elevates the intellect above revelation which is manifest kufr and a belief of the romans

Re: Where's brother Daud
PacificBreeze

06/08/01 at 20:53:03

assalaamu alaikum,
maybe he'll check his email eventually? and someone could probably sympathize and explain things to him in a nice way so he doesn't feel like he has to leave islam all together? explain that it takes time etc..?
just a thought?
wa salaamu alaikum

Re: Where's brother Daud
jannah

06/08/01 at 23:47:01

[quote]jannah let me get this absolutely clear you are saying that
it is forbidden to call somebody who says beer is halaal a kaafir on this board[/quote]

chachi i am not saying you cannot call someone who says beer is halal a kaafir. i am saying you are not allowed to call anyone a kaafir on this board. regardless if they are or not. this is not the khilafah. this is not the land of the free. this is a message board. if you do not wish to follow the rules that we have all agreed upon you are very free to leave.

Re: Where's brother Daud
Arsalan

06/10/01 at 01:44:40

[slm]

I've been doing a lot of thinking ever since I read Saleema's first post in this thread. Every time I think about this whole incident, I get a really sick feeling inside of me. It's a feeling of remorse, regret, helplessness and anxiety. I do not know what caused our dear brother Daud to become disillusioned (if that is what happened) and leave Islam (if he did indeed - and I pray to Allah that he did not). I can only hope and pray to Allah (swt) that it had *nothing* to do with me.

But alas, I'm not sure!

I have made a decision. I have been a frequent poster on this board. One who posts too much in fact (highest poster after the two admins). But insha Allah, that will be no longer. I have decided to make a change.

I cannot take the risk anymore - of saying something which may be taken the wrong way by someone - anyone - and cause disastrous results, without me even realizing the consequences of my well-intentioned post! The consequences are too severe. And the harm is more, much more, than the benefit.

I hold this board dear to myself, so I cannot leave it completely (at least not yet), but I have decided to limit my posts drastically. I am just letting all of you know for two reasons:

- Don't ask me why I'm not posting as frequently any more, and why my posts are becoming so short. I've already told you why ...

- Take heed! Be careful, very careful of what you write here. You don't have to stop posting. Just exercise caution.

May Allah forgive us for our mistakes. For those mistakes that we have committed knowingly, and for those mistakes that we have committed unknowingly. And may Allah prevent us from ever leading anyone to misguidance. Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illa billahil aliyyil adheem.

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

Re: Where's brother Daud
codliveroil

06/11/01 at 15:08:19

i didn't post any thing here earlyer cause i didn't know about the thread. any way, i read it and it seems like every one is jumping on cachi?
you know when people jump on people to tell them to do dawa in a nicer way, dont you think the people asking others not to be harse, shouldnt be harsh them selves?
just a thougt,, will every one jump on me for expressing it?

Re: Where's brother Daud
meraj

06/11/01 at 15:12:43

slm,

haha no jehad/codliveriol.. you are right.. im my opinion, being muslims and giving dawah isnt limited to how we treat those to whom we are giving the dawah, but also how we treat our fellow muslims, cause that in itself can show non muslims what muslims are like.. and thats extremely important in and of itself :)

Re: Where's brother Daud
eleanor

06/11/01 at 16:55:23

slm

I've been following this thread since it started and never really had anything to post on the subject, but Arslan's last post really touched me.

Brother, it's a shame if you don't post as often and in depth as you have done up until now! you've helped me tremendously since I first came here and probably countless other people too!

I just wanted to let you know how I felt and put it up publicly because I'm sure there are others who will agree...

As to Brother Daud, Allah will surely guide him to the right way. Once Allah touches your heart he never lets go. Daud will find that out in due course.

I think everyone should keep on postin', just be careful about expressing opinions with no hadith or Koran to back it up. And choose your words carefully before you type! That's the beauty of a message board..you have all the time in the world to think about what you want to write and how you want to write it!

wasalaam
eleanor

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org