Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| eleanor |
| 06/03/01 at 06:44:20 |
| Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem slm Magic. Does it exist? Does it work? In the Qur'an we're told that magic is forbidden. Does this mean that magic is a very real and formidable force, the use of which is forbidden? Or are we told not to believe in magic? That it doesn't exist? I've heard enough stories of black magic to give me the creeps, but I don't know whether I should believe it or not. What do you think? wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| Kathy |
| 06/03/01 at 09:39:58 |
| slm Yes I know that in Islam Questions and Answers- they have answered that question. It is ironic that you brought up this subject. The other day my son's substitute teacher was doing elementary magic tricks for the kids. As I sat there I felt uneasy- for many reasons. What do I tell my son? Should I have left the room? Am I condoning it by staying? Dawah- just another "supposed negative about Islam"- by their way of thinking- 'Poor Ali- already can't have any fun...' I did talk to my son about trickery. Anyone with any advice? |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| Mujaahid |
| 06/03/01 at 10:10:40 |
| As salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh Alhamdulillah ukhtee Eleanor for bringing up this important issue. As Muslims we do believe in the existence of magic, Allaah has said (the meaning of which is): ". . . Sulayman did not disbelieve, but the shayaateen (devils) disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things as came down at Babylon to the two angels, Haaroot and Maaroot, but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) things till they had said, ‘We are only for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us).’ . . ." [Al-Baqarah 2:102] So we know from this that not only is the existence of magic a reality, and it is from one of the evils that Allaah has created, but the practice of it is an act of kufr since it is shirk. Allaah warns us against the practice of magic because of what the result is: "...And they learn that which harms them and profits them not . . .” [al-Baqarah 2:102] ". . . and the magician will never be successful, no matter what amount (of skill) he may attain).” [Ta-Ha 20:69] So any who falls into its practice it will be of no profit to them, and they will not be successful in it regardless of the amount of skill that they get from it, or how they stun or place the people around them in awe because of it. The ruling behind the practice of magic being kufr is because the magicians claim the knowledge of the unseen, when we know that Allaah only has the knowledge of things in the future, and things which are not meant for the realm of perception amongst His creation. The prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam said: "Three do not enter heaven : the alcoholic, the severer of the bonds of kinship, and the one who believes in magic" This is related by Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Musnad). The magicians are in league with the evil Jinn, they either call upon their power to perform what is otherwise not possible, or they call upon them to enter their bodies in possession so that they can perform acts otherwise out of their power. I myself have been with brothers who have seen this with their own eyes and May Allaah protect us from that. So Ukhtee Eleanor we believe in the existence of magic, but we stay away from it since it is amongst one of the major sins which is so despised in the sight of Allaah that it negates one's eemaan and takes that person outside the fold of Islaam. If we are weary of the existence of those who perform it near to us, or, that we may be the subject of such a thing, then we should seek refuge in Allaah, and there are many ayaat and du'aat that we can read. I am sorry I am in slight rush at the moment so I can cannot sit down and think or look up more evidence, but I hope this is enough, if not please let me know. Ukhtee Kathy, May Allaah make your son from amongst the pious and a source of blessings to you - I don't think that the tricks that were being performed in his class were calling from amongst the Jinn, at least I hope not!! Allaahu alam this is just clever deception and is not purporting to have knowledge of the unseen, and in such situations you are correct that we should have hikmah in how we speak to our children so that they do not obtain an unwarranted harsh view of our beautiful deen. Also we should have hikmah in how we present ourselves to non-Muslims, and walking out with no explanation might have been the wrong thing to do. More I think your reaction was correct, that you felt uneasy in your heart for Allaah can see what is in our breasts, and after the event to speak with your son about the virtues of staying away from acts of deception and trickery (no matter how small) so that next time he will also feel uneasy. As regards the non-Muslims, I have always found that if you speak to them on the side, with a calm and purposeful tone, always willing to answer their questions then if you were to walk out of such a gathering in the future, they would understand and accept. This may be of no help and it is only my opinion, and May Allaah forgive me for anything I have said wrong. As far as black magic is concerned, Allaah has bestowed upon guidance and understanding that we do not need to delve into matters of the unseen. And may He protect us from that. was salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh Mujaahid |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| jehad |
| 06/03/01 at 14:55:43 |
| asalm walakum sister kathy, slite of hand tricks are not magic. some one mentioned a incident once where some abasinians where doing so and the messinger watched them. the speaker was talking about something completely different though, i think about seperation of sexs. not sure long time ago. what is magic is stuff like blowing on knots and suth sayers. there were a lot of them in the Persion empire, that is until Umair rd invaded it. All magic people were killed. Oh by the way, about your son, just tell him it is not real and show him how it is done. tell him how the hand is quicker then the eye. i like pen and teller. they do the tricks and then explane how it is done. that way people realise all those people who claim powers are lyers. like Gulam mirza ahmad, big big lyer. only Allah has real power. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| salamrae |
| 06/04/01 at 00:36:06 |
| Yes Jehad I agree with you most magicians like the ones you mentioned are just doing slight of hand tricks. However there is a difference between that and real magic. Im not talking about made up stuff like Bewitched (tv show). Have you ever seen David Blaine (not sure of spelling)??? He was the guy who put himself in a block of ice. Well if you have ever seen his street magic shows youll know , he is for real. This has to be the kind of magic that we need to stay away from. What do you think? Salam Rae |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| eleanor |
| 06/04/01 at 04:48:58 |
| slm Jazak Allah Khair! but does this mean that Harry Potter is haraam ??? :( wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/04/01 at 08:27:30 |
| AA Good answers from everyone, especialy Mujahid. How about giving us a few more posts, Inshallah we can all benefit from you! I don't know whether David Blaine's magic is real, but I doubt it. It is possible to do really big illusions without recourse to the Jinns. I was once into magic tricks (the artificial kind!), used to read a few things, an dthere was never any suggestion that this kind of thing was anything other than illusions. As for Harry Potter, I feel uncomfortable when my daughter (aged 7) reads any kind of "magic" stories. After all, magic is haram, and so haram that the one who does it goes outside Islam. I think the alternative is po find more halal stories for kids. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| jannah |
| 06/04/01 at 10:11:24 |
| wlm, we were seriously impressed when we first saw david blaine do some of those tricks...like throw a deck of cards against a glass window and one appears on the inside.. and levitating himself and stuff.. scary.. but then fox aired this show called "Magicians Unveiled' or something like that and showed alot of behind the scenes stuff on how street magicians actually do their tricks now alot of what he did was explained so i doubt if he's really into black magic or anything.. seems like he's just a 'sleight of hand' artist ;) |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/04/01 at 17:51:52 |
| First what is magic? is it compelling jinn? or persuading jinn ? we know jinn are attracted by blood and rubbish or is it using words the original names of things taught to adam pbuh by allah swt? is tv a form of magic since it engages in enchantment? secondly muhammed ali the famous boxer performed a magic trick for fidel castro on tv and then he showed him it was a trick because he said it was unislamic if he persuaded him he had some sort of powers there are people who engage in stuff like esp and contact with jinn etc lest any doubt this they may consider the documents only just released about the second world war a woman who contacted jinn was actually imprisoned secretly by the courts because she was considered a security hazard under the old acts relating to witchcraft as she predicted several naval manouvers and sinking of british ship david blaine performs illusions but there are people who can perform minor magic but their power is growing less as the prophet predicted the poser of magic will decline but if you want to see mysteries then look at how allah swt helps mujahideen |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| kiwi25 |
| 06/04/01 at 19:42:32 |
| salaam, as far as i heard, all kind of magic is haram. the only humn being to have practiced real magic on his own with the help of Allah(SWT) was prophet musa (AS), because Allah(SWT) gave him that privledge as a prophet. as far as 'well that looks real' and 'it really did happen' i think some are helped by jinns. but heres what i dont noe for sure... what about mind readers? are they helped by jinns or Allah(SWT) gave them a gift that they have abused? because some muslims say mind readers are real...... wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/05/01 at 16:14:36 |
kiwi exactly my point... what the angels taught those in bebylon is only one type of knowledge which we call magic but there are other things we call magic as well because there was stuff that people engaged in BEFORE babylon is that forbidden as well? or is the stuff thats forbidden only when you try to rely on something and say it's from other than allah swt |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| eleanor |
| 06/05/01 at 18:13:29 |
| slm okay..let me give you an example of the story I heard. There was this guy and his sister was almost 40 years old and hadn't had any kids yet. She had all the medical tests done, and her husband too, and there was no reason not to conceive. So they thought maybe someone had put a curse on them. The woman's father went to see a "magic man" and was told to bring a piece of clothing belonging to his daughter. He brought one of her hijabs. This magic man had a jinn, which he used for good purposes only. Well, when the woman's father got there, he laid the scarf on the table and then the magic man sent his jinn to get rid of the curse. The father felt wind blowing through the room and the scarf kind of shifted on the table. The magic man picked up the scarf and out of it fell an old piece of paper which was folded many times and had a needle going through it back and forth. The needle was really rusty and they had difficulty getting it out of the paper. On the paper was a curse someone had written that the woman should never have children. The magic man said that his jinn had found the piece of paper in the back wall of the woman's house, in a place down near the ground. The wall was made out of clay at the bottom part and bricks at the top. The magic guy knew all the details. Now these people had never met before so how did the old guy know everything and where did the old rusty needle and paper come from? Sometime later the woman conceived and had a baby boy who is now 3 years old. It's a true story. wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| Arsalan |
| 06/05/01 at 18:30:11 |
| [slm] The old guy (magic man) knew these things through his Jinn. Despite the fact that the man used this Jinn and his magic powers for "good", this does not make his practice a lawful act. All forms of magic which utilize unseen spirits (the Jinn) are forbidden in Islam. Most often, if not in all cases, the Jinn require that the man do certain "acts of favor" for the Jinn so that he may do what the man asks him for. These favors often, if not in all cases, require the man to utter certain phrases and/or perform acts of SHIRK. These Jinns are, in all cases, Shayaateen, because they are forbidden to be in such a relationship with men. They are not allowed to fiddle in our lives, and the good ones among them never do (except in very rare cases to help us without us ever realizing their presence). But like us, they have a Free Will, and thus some of them choose to step over the boundaries set for them by Allah. It is a result of such transgression from the Jinn that we see magicians who are able to utilize them. The spell which was cast on the woman in the first place must also be the result of a magician who used another Jinn to do so. This type of spell was also placed on the Prophet (pbuh) by the Jews. He taught us how to overcome such spells in his Sunnah. And it is NOT by using other Jinn! It is by reciting the Qur'an - the mu3awwidhatain - Surah al-Falaq and Surah al-Naas. There are also many du3aas which can be found in ahaadith for these purposes, as well as other ayaat which may be recited. Wallahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/06/01 at 09:04:46 |
Jinn are not allowed to fiddle in our lives?... your evidence akhi? hadrat sulaiman was the prophet pbuh and other saints had contact with Jinn |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| eleanor |
| 06/06/01 at 11:23:31 |
| slm where can I get more info. on what dua to recite for what spells? Not that I'm under a spell or anything (as far as I know) but it's really interesting for me. wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| BroHanif |
| 06/06/01 at 18:44:36 |
| A.W.W. [quote]Despite the fact that the man used this Jinn and his magic powers for "good", this does not make his practice a lawful act. All forms of magic which utilize unseen spirits (the Jinn) are forbidden in Islam. Most often, if not in all cases, the Jinn require that the man do certain "acts of favor" for the Jinn so that he may do what the man asks him for. These favors often, if not in all cases, require the man to utter certain phrases and/or perform acts of SHIRK. These Jinns are, in all cases, Shayaateen, because they are forbidden to be in such a relationship with men. They are not allowed to fiddle in our lives, and the good ones among them never do (except in very rare cases to help us without us ever realizing their presence). But like us, they have a Free Will, and thus some of them choose to step over the boundaries set for them by Allah. It is a result of such transgression from the Jinn that we see magicians who are able to utilize them. [quote] Brother Arsalan, Where did you get your info from that you can't use Jinns...??? Some Jinns are good, some are bad. Some are muslims and help us or each other in Dawah i.e. invite to good and forbid evil. Some Jinns work with other humans i.e. scholars to help them fight against evil like Black Magic. Some work with evil magicians i.e. Black Magic Salaam. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/06/01 at 19:06:55 |
akhi arsalan i have to agree with brohanif again i was gonna post this myself before but the server was down akhi remember hadrat sulaiman? have you read the book on jinn by abu aminah bilal phillips read the stuff on how the prophet allowed the sahabi to say certain stuff to get rid of jinn i'd quote it myself but somebody borrowed my copy and never returned it.. :) |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| Arsalan |
| 06/07/01 at 01:07:00 |
| [slm] Chachi, BroHanif, give me 24 hours to respond insha Allah. Jazak Allahu khairan. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| siraat |
| 06/07/01 at 01:48:04 |
| "And verily, there were men among mankind who took shelter with the masculine among the jinns, but they (jinns) increased them (mankind) in sin and disbelief." (72:6) "O Children of Adam! Let not Satan deceive you as he got your parents out of Paradise ... Verily, he and Qabiluhu (his soldiers from the jinns or his tribe) see you from where you cannot see them. Verily, We made the devils protectors and helpers for those who believe not." (7:27) We cannot see them so there is no way we can control our relationship with them. Prophet Sulaiman was a prophet and Allaah gave him power over them. Sulaiman prayed to Allaah that He not give this power to anyone after him and Allaah answered his du'aa. Asalamalaykum. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| Anonymous |
| 06/07/01 at 12:06:19 |
| cachi hazret solayman made a duah, and it was excepted. no one after him has control over the jin. people who claim to be saints and claim to have powers over jins are lying. |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/07/01 at 13:56:25 |
| Salaam 'nonymous whats your evidence for your statement that nobody after has had control over jinn? and whats your evidence for saying that those who do are lying? and i never said 'control' i said 'contact' actually this was witnessed by the whole of my village that a well known alim was seen floating in the air on the way back to his mosque and he stated that some of his talibs were jinn ..so your evidence will have to be pretty substantial ..since i KNOW the prophet gave dawah to jinn Man he gave you 24 hours?!.. so i guess he's gonna hang you over a cliff by your hair and tickle you if it's 25 hours hunh?.. hanif ease up on the guy man i've given you weeks... :) [quote]cachi hazret solayman made a duah, and it was excepted. no one after him has control over the jin. people who claim to be saints and claim to have powers over jins are lying.[/quote] |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 06/07/01 at 14:52:23 |
| AA Chachi, I think you are steeping into dangerous territory here. This is from islam-qa.com : Question: What is the ruling on asking the jinn for help in finding out about the evil eye or magic [i.e., who did it and what type it is], or believing a jinn who is residing in a sick person in what he says about magic and the evil eye, and taking action based on that? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. It is not permissible to seek the help of the jinn in finding about what the problem is and how to treat it, because seeking the help of the jinn is shirk. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "And verily, there were men among mankind who took shelter with the males among the jinn, but they (jinn) increased them (mankind) in sin and transgression" [al-Jinn 72:6] "And on the Day when He will gather them (all) together (and say): `O you assembly of jinn! Many did you mislead of men,' and their Awliyaa' (friends and helpers) amongst men will say: `Our Lord! We benefited one from the other, but now we have reached our appointed term which You did appoint for us.' He will say: `The Fire be your dwelling place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allaah may will. Certainly your Lord is All?Wise, All?Knowing'" [al-An'aam 6:128] The meaning of the phrase `We benefited one from the other' is that the men venerated the jinn and submitted to them and sought help from them, and the jinn served them by doing what they wanted and bringing them what they asked for. That includes informing them of the type of sickness and its causes, because the jinn can come to know of things that humans cannot; but they may tell lies, because they cannot be trusted, and it is not permissible to believe them. And Allaah knows best. The case of Sulaiaman (AS) was different :he did not ask the Jinn for help, he was given power over the Jinn. Eleanor, based on authentic hadith, the best protection from the Jinn is to recite certain Surahs at certain times : 1. Ayat Ul Kursi after each salat and at bedtime 2. The last two surahs of the Quran after each salat and at bedtime. Recite three times after maghrib and fajr, once after the other salats. 3. The last two ayats of Suraj Al Baqarah at bedtime. Inshallah, these will be sufficient to protect you from the Jinn and all other such evil. And Allah knows best. |
| NS |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/07/01 at 16:19:15 |
akhi your making assumptions 1) that all jinn are kaffirs 2) and next what is worse you are assuming that the verse in the quran is calling all Jinn liars i think your falling into the same trap as those who assume iblis was an angel if we accept what your saying all jinn are kaffir which is patently not true because the quran itself says that a group are muslim and then you are saying that all jinn are liars |
| Re: Hocus Pocus...real or bogus? |
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| chachi |
| 06/07/01 at 17:51:19 |
the book on jinn i was talking about is by the way 'the excorcist tradition in islam' by bilal phillips |
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