What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????

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What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/18/01 at 21:32:47
[slm]

How are you? Insha Allah I hope everything is good over there. Hmm..as we all know that in Islam ," age " is not a barrier in marriage. A man can marry an elder woman, and a woman can marry an elder man.

But..actually I need your view..is it really good to marry someone that about 12 years elder or more?

Because I have ever read in a book about marriage in Islam..that..it is better to marry younger one..

Hmmm..personally I will prefer younger one also :)..perhaps..3 or 4 years elder than me only...

Hmm..I am curious asking about marriage since seriously I am looking for good and sakeenah marriage now :)

Please help me..ya :) Jazakallahu Khairan..


Wasalammu'alaikum

RAHMI
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
zia
06/18/01 at 21:43:06
Asalaam Alaikum

Well I think ideally it would work out well if the guy were a bit older. But I also think it depends on the individuals involved, their maturity, immaturity level, how much they want things to work out etc.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/18/01 at 21:58:04
Assalammu'alaikum,

Zia, what do you think if you are a girl and you have to marry someone that maybe 12 or 13 years than you...suppose you are still 23 and that brother is 35...is it good :)?

Wasalam :)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Mahmoodah
06/19/01 at 02:53:34
salam
does age matter???
i don't think age difference is important, u get couples that hav 10yrs gap but they're gr8 couples, but u also get couples of the same age which r also gr8
but i personally don't like the idea of marring ur sum1 of ur grandadz age!!!

walaikum salam
i will..i will not...i will...i will not...uh oh i picked all the flower petals!
PacificBreeze
06/19/01 at 02:55:53
salaams..
i've always thought about that too..i don't think i'd feel that comfortable marrying someone THAT much older than me...but since u put it into an actual age..it doesn't sound THAT bad..however, i or the fam..we always think about how it'd be when the couple'll be older...n how u could end up being the nurse soo soon...u know?

again though, it's up to u..how u feel about taht person..sometimes it could be better marrying an older guy cause he could be more financially capable or more mature..or he's ready to take care of U instead of u having to take care of HIM..u know? or all the other things that can go with it...

think about the person n scrutinize him n his qualities..are u pleased with his traits n do u think he possess most of what u like or wanted? how do U feel about it? u can always skip him over n wait for someone else who might be better suited or one who's not that much older...it totally depends on u...

so......ur call.... :-\ sorry not much of a help, but it's really an individual situation..
do salahtul istikhara?
wa salaams :)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/19/01 at 03:40:21
[slm]

Thanks a lot for all your response...

Yes that's right that it is better for a woman to marry an elder man. I am myself would prefer someone who is 3 till 5 years elder than me :).

But don't you think that 12 years old difference is too big :(?

Well..I know that Rasool married Aisyah whom is much younger than him. But surely as we know Rasool is the best man in this earth :)...he is very different from other men, right?

I think if there is still chance to get the younger brother...I think I had better choose a younger..surely a pious one too :)

Wasalam

Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
PacificBreeze
06/19/01 at 03:43:02
:)
then dear, drop the idea of a way older man n get someone closer to ur age! :)

there now, you found out what you're most comfortable with! :)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/19/01 at 03:47:21
[slm]

But I am afraid if the elder brother will feel hurted :(..

Wasalam
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Spring
06/19/01 at 07:53:55
[slm]

Hope you are well, Rahmi. Things are well at this side of the world. Alhamdulillah.

It sounds like a complicated situation. But there is one thing for certain, you can't marry someone because you are afraid of hurting his feelings.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
BrKhalid
06/19/01 at 08:58:06
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)


Read more opinions on this subject [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=2295]here[/url]
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
PacificBreeze
06/19/01 at 15:04:00
rahmi sis..
nooo, u can't think like that or u'll always end up saying yes to the person u dont' want to marry! ;) get ur parents to do it!!..i'm kinda in that situation myself at the moment...but...i'm just going to have to say, la shukran. :)

think up of a pleasant (kind) response..or have ur parents or someone else do it for u..n don't worry, insha'allah, he'll be on his way proposing to some other girl :)

let us know how it goes..n what happens. :)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Ayla_A
06/19/01 at 17:23:44
Asalaamu alaikum All

I think when it comes to marriage it is better to marry someone that you are compatable, does not matter the age.  There are many examples of all types of marriages with the different ages.  Pray istikara (sorry spelling is probably wrong) and you will get your answer

ma'asalaama
Tracy
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/20/01 at 05:20:52
[slm]

There is a beautiful girl i know who is 26 years old and her husband is 66 years old. She has two children. A little boy and a little girl. Her husband has heart problems. He's going to die pretty soon, i mean, everyone will die you know someday.

He's going to leave a young wife behind. What's going to happen to her i wonder? Because men don't like to marry "used" women. As if virginity is a piece of cloth...

She's like a bird in a cage, and he married her when she was 16 years old. (Some parents really don't have hearts.)

He won't let her drive, or go to college, so I hope he will at least leave money behind for her and their two children.

Anyway, I think 10 years difference isn't bad.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/20/01 at 05:41:09
[slm]

Thanks a lot for your views.. Really I like and enjoy very much discussing here. And plse accept my kind Salam from Indonesia  for you all….:):)

Well..yeah.. actually it is better to marry an elder man ( I think so..), but for me maybe about 3 – 6 years elder. But if it is more than 10 years old, I think it is too old…:(

Well..if there are two pious men, one is 25 and another is 35, surely I will choose 25 ..Insha Allah…

But actually I think it is very good ideas if brothers wants to marry elder sisters…:)

However it depends on individual I think :)

[wlm]
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
nawaz
06/20/01 at 06:44:30
Assalam Alaikum


Interesting discussion. The thing to note is the difference between western values and Islamic values. The contradiction becomes quite clear when it comes to the subject of marriage.

In the west, what is their view of marriage?. What should the marriage built upon?. What qualities should a person look for in a husband or wife?. These are issues that have become very corrupt in the west.

Its well know that here in Britain, there are less marriages that are taken place. It should be no surprise to us that this is the case. For them, living with your girlfriend/boyfriend, having kids outside marriage is seen as the norm and nothing wrong. Its quite common to hear them say "I dont need a piece of paper to say that im married". This is their view of marriage "just a piece of paper". Contrast this with Islam. Marriage in Islam is more that just a contract. It the method that Allah(swt) gave us to enjoy intimate relations with each other. Its a way of continuing the human race as well as being a way to worship the creator of the heavens and the earth.

As for the basis of marriage, this too has become corrupted. "Love" is their view of what makes a strong marriage. How much you love someone is the reason you should marry them. No consideration is given to what kind of wife or husband he/she will make. Again in Islam the values are very different. The basis of marriage is Islam and the worship of Allah(swt). Even love is based upon the worship of Allah(swt).

So in conclusion, just beacuse someone is 10 years younger or 40 years older, does not mean that he/she will make a better husband or wife. We can find many exanples in the past of older men marrying very young women.

From the Shar'a evidences, we know that the prophet recommended that husband to be a little older than his wife. Also there are other evidences that say that its recommended to marry a young virgin.

So the best quality to look for in a person is not their age, colour or beauty (although it is allowed to marry them for their beauty, wealth etc) but the best quality to look for is to see if they fear Allah(swt)

Wasalam
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Mahmoodah
06/20/01 at 13:24:19
salam,
bro nawaz, i sooooooooo agree with u, the best quality too look 4 is religion and deen ( i read a hadith on that oce aswell)!!!

neways, it doesnt matter even if the women is older then the man, look at our prophet (pbuh) and his 1st wife khadijjah (ra), thats a gr8 example of a wife being older!!!
even in 2days world u get couples that the women is older, my uncle married a women older then him and hes really happy!!!

neways i think the messae "age aint important" has got across!!!
but u must still feel comforable!!!

wa-salam
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Mahmoodah
06/20/01 at 13:31:38

[quote]
men don't like to marry "used" women. As if virginity is a piece of cloth...[/quote]

sis, u do get brothers that marry used women, not all men r the same!!!
neways, theirs a hadith that says, its better to marry a virgin rather then a non virgin!!!
but neways, 1 of my distant cousins married a divorce, not ALL men go 4 a virgin!!!

[quote]
(Some parents really don't have hearts.) [/quote]
but they'll hav a heart deep insude them, alot of parents do wat they feel is right!!! U can't blame them 4 havin an opinion!!!
neways inshallah she stays safe!!!

[quote]He won't let her drive, or go to college, so I hope he will at least leave money behind for her and their two children.[/quote]
sum men r just over protective, or sexist!!!

[quote]Anyway, I think 10 years difference isn't bad.[/quote]
that depends if u feel comfortable or not!!!

wa-salam:)


Saleema[/quote]
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/20/01 at 22:25:39
[slm]

Yes, bro Nawaz, you are correct that marriage is a form of "Ibadah" to Allah SWT.I am sure that we all know that marriage is the only legitimate or halal way to express and indulge the intimacy between a man and a woman.

Now I would like to speak a abit about marriage :):)..This I got from what I read, hmmm from some book of Marriage in Islam, also articles regarding marriage..so this is not from my own experience :)..since I am still looking for "nikah" InshaAllah :)

Marriage is not only means to sexual and emotion satisfaction. But,
marriage is a form of our Ibadah to Allah SWT. See : Marriage is really…really….. religious duty. It also social necessity. Our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW said “ Marriage is my tradition, who so ever keeps away there from is not amongst me”.

But today we see that we have to suffer unmarried life because of un-Islamic factors. Many young have very high expectation for their spouses. They make very difficult requirement and standard of physical features, wealth, formal education, profession, social status, etc.

Allah SWT say in Holy Quran :”Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care toward your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proof for who think” (QS 30:21)


Allah Almighty also says in Holy Quran :”And help to get married those among you who are single or virtuous ones of your slaves males or females. If they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace. For Allah encompasses all and know all things .” (QS 24 : 34 )

When seriously considering about marriage, a man/woman have to ask the
question to him/her self, what kind of spouse he/she want. Our beloved
Prophet Muhammad SAW said, “A woman may be married for four reasons : for her property, her status, her beauty, and her piety (religion), so try to get one who is religious, may you be blessed”. If we marry a woman/ man for only worldly wealth, our marriage will fall into misery.

I realize that it is hard to resist beauty, charm, and others
wealthy wealth. But , please think about this. We all know that beauty doesn’t last forever. Maybe when our spouse is still young, 20, 25, 30, 35, years old, she/he looks so beautiful, attractive, appealing, and charming. But what will happen, when our spouse is getting old. When she/he is 45,50,60, is she/he still beautiful? The worldly status, physical beauty, social and financial status is dynamic.

We shall choose our parnet for her/his permanent value, piety, character, moral integrity, etc, not only for temporary worldly wealth. Sure, the perfect one doesn’t exist. But don’t forget that we aren’t perfect either.

The choice of a prospective partner should be the one with the most “taqwa”

But...to tell you the truth..as a girl..well..I am 22 now..if there are two men propose me. One is 25 and another is 35, and I find that both are pious..I think I will choose the younger one :) (25 years)..

Am I wrong if I prefer the younger one ???

Surely I have to do "istikharah" also..:)

Wasalam,

~:)RAHMI:):)~



Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/21/01 at 16:17:05
Also there are other evidences that say that its recommended to marry a young virgin.

Come on. Is it really better to marry a virgin girl? Why? For the sole fact that she has never been 'done.' And how about a virgin guy? Would it be better for a woman to marry a virgin guy than one who's not?

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
PacificBreeze
06/21/01 at 17:04:48
just a side comment...

actually they used to marry alot of nonvirgins before..but then the prophet saw advised to marry a virgin so she's for him, n he's for her..n they can become attached to each other from the first etc..w/o having any other longings for someone in the past etc..
any ways, back to the topic n posts :)

oh..n just to throw in other things...i was actually reading a sister's article..her story about the m topic..and all her struggles involved...n how at the end she realized taht it was probably better to marry someone who was already married n who had a succcessful marriage..since he would betterknow how to handle one than the guy she had married prior to which had ended in a divorce..so...having gone thru it before might work it next time..or then again maybe not! lol i think it all depends on the individual..so hard to generalize huh?

lol not saying ne thing, just adding fuel to the fire...n rememing that story..it was actually quite pleasant reading..

;)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Arsalan
06/21/01 at 19:42:08
[slm]
[quote]Come on. Is it really better to marry a virgin girl? Why? For the sole fact that she has never been 'done.' And how about a virgin guy? Would it be better for a woman to marry a virgin guy than one who's not?[/quote]Hello!  It's the advice of the Prophet! (pbuh)

Are you going to argue that???
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
kiwi25
06/21/01 at 21:04:35
salaam,

i see arsalans point but dont forget the non virgin ones,
i mean would u choose a religious non virgin or non religious virgin?
so try to base it upon the islam that she (i should say he too) has rather than the virginity, because many ppl do just go for that...
as for the whole age thing, it all depends on the indiviual eh?
(im not canadian, im albanyian, its just that ive been around canadians this past week hehe)

wasalam nouha:)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/22/01 at 00:56:57
[slm]

Yes, Rasool SAW told us to marry never married girls...but I think it is also okay to marry a widow..If you like her piety..why not :)? Perhaps she can take you better than a never married girl..since she has got experience from her marriage life before.

So, choose her for the following attributes:

-a Muslim woman

-a believing woman

-a devout woman

-a true woman

-a woman who is patient and constant

-a woman who humbles herself

-a woman who gives charity

-a woman who fasts and denies herself

-a woman who guards her chastity

-a woman who engages much in Allah's praise.

Btw..I just copied that passage from www.islamzine.com :):)..And I think a girl also can use those criteria above to find a right brother..so a muslim man, a believing man, ......etc :)

[wlm]

RAHMI





Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
destined
06/22/01 at 01:17:45
[slm]

[quote]Btw..I just copied that passage from www.islamzine.com[/quote]
I think that's taken from surah Al-Ahzab [33:35]--I love that ayah :)

For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
y_rahmi
06/22/01 at 03:02:36
[slm]


Yes, you are right :)..

[wlm]
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/24/01 at 01:22:14
[slm]

So what about widows and divorcees? and what about men that aren't 'virgins?' what happens to them? why was the stress on marrying virgins put on only women? Why not the men? Men in our society will get married to whoever they want without worrying about anything. and women that are divorced or widowed in our society will never get married again or they have a hard time getting married again.


[wlm
Saleema
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
se7en
06/24/01 at 20:02:23
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

woah.. hold up.. the text that says it is "better to marry virgin girls".. who was it addressing?  was it a specific situation or a general statement?  

when you make statements like the prophet [saw] recommended that a husband be older than his wife or that it is better to marry virgin girls.. these statements imply that ALL men should marry someone younger than them and a virgin.  Does that seem right to you at all?  

think about it in the context of the seerah, whom the prophet [saw] himself married and whom he encouraged to marry.

Hint:  "Who of you would like to marry a woman of the women of jannah?"


Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Arsalan
06/25/01 at 00:59:42
[slm]

The following excerpt is taken from the translation of Imam al-Ghazali's (rahimahullah) Book 12 of [i]Ihyaa' Ulum al-Din[/i] called [i]Adab al-Nikah[/i] (translated Proper Conduct of Marriage in Islam).  Insha Allah, I hope this will shed some light on this topic (Note: the emphasis are mine):

[u]Conditions of Happiness[/u]

As for those qualities that make for a happy life, and which must be looked for in the woman so that the contract may prove durable and the object achieved, these are 8 in number:

i.   Religion
ii.  Good behavior
iii.  Beauty
iv.  Moderate dower
v.   Fertility
vi.  Virginity
vii.  Good lineage
viii. Absence of close kinship

[...]

vi. [u]Virginity[/u]

Sixthly, the woman should be a virgin.  The Prophet (pbuh) said to Jabir (radiAllahu anhu), when the latter married a non-virgin:

"Why not a virgin for you to caress, and to caress you in turn."

Virginity confers 3 benefits:

a. She will love her husband and harmonize with him, and this will be conducive to affection.  The Prophet (pbuh) said:

"You should take an affectionate wife."

Character is formed by familiarity with what one is first accustomed to.  A woman who has come to know men, and had experience of different circumstances, may not be satisfied with certain attributes in her husband, which conflict with what she has been used to, and so she may come to hate him.

b.  It is calculated to perfect his affection for her, for a man is by nature somewhat averse from a woman who has been touched by another husband, and this may weight upon his temperament whenever he recalls it.  Some natures are more strongly affected than others by such aversion.

c.  She will not pine for a former husband.  The strongest love is generally that experienced with the first husband.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As a supplement, here is an excerpt from the first volume of a 3-volume series by Shaykh Muhammad al-Jibaly on "The Muslim Family," titled [i]The Quest for Love & Mercy: Regulations for Marriage & Wedding In Islam[/i].  In the chapter titled "Selecting a Wife", he mentions several criteria that need to be considered.  After righteousness and good character, he talks about virginity as follows:

3. [u]Virginity[/u]

Virginity is not a condition for marriage, but is a recommended quality - provided that one has both options and that the women he is considering are equal in other respects.  Virginity then becomes a weighing factor for a number of reasons that will be outlined in the subsequent sub-sections.

Jabir Bin Abdullah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that when his father died, he left behind nine girls that Jabir had to look after.  Soon after that, Jabir married a non-virgin, and when the Prophet (pbuh) met him he asked him, "Have you married, O Jabir?"  He replied, "Yes."  He asked him, "Is she virgin or non-virgin?"  He replied, "Non-virgin."  He (pbuh) said:

"Shouldn't you have considered a virgin who plays with you and you with her, and she laughs with you and you with her?"

Jabir replied, "Indeed, my father Abdullah died leaving many daughters.  I did not want to add to them another young girl like themselves, so I married a grown woman to take care of them and look after them."  Allah's Messenger (pbuh) then said:

"Indeed, you have made a good decision.  May Allah bless that tremendously for you."  (Recorded by al-Bukhari, Muslim, and others).

4.  [u]Ability to Bear Children[/u]

Since one of the important purposes of marriage is reproduction, it is recommended to marry a younger woman who would normally be more likely to bear many children.  In turn, this is more likely to apply to virgins than non-virgins.  

Abdullah Bin Mas'ud (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said:

"Marry virgins, because they have sweeter mouths (talk) and more fertile wombs, and are easier to be satisfied with little wealth."  (Recorded by at-Tabarani in al-Kbir.  Verified to be hasan by al-Albani in as-Sahihah no. 623 and Sahih ul-Jami' no. 2939).

[...]

6. [u]Contentment[/u]

An important quality to be sought in a wife is contentment.  A dissatisfied wife would make her husband miserable and push him to do anything to please her.  

It is easier for a virgin than a non-virgin to be content with her husband's financial situation and with what he gives her.  Similar to Ibn Mas'ud's earlier hadith, Jabir Bin Abdullah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said:

"Seek (in marriage) virgins, because they have more fertile wombs, sweeter mouths, less slyness, and are easier to be satisfied with little (wealth)."  (Recorded by at-Tabarani in al-Awsat and ad-Diya ul-Maqdisi.  Verified to be authentic by al-Albani in as-Sahihah no. 624 and Sahih ul-Jami' no. 4053).

And Utbah Bin "Uwaym Bin Sa'idah al-Ansari (radiAllahu anhu) reported that Prophet (pbuh) said:

"Marry virgins!  They have sweeter mouths, more fertile wombs, and are more satisfiable with little."  (Recorded by Ibn Majah and others from SA'idah and Jabir.  It is verified to be hasan by al-Albani in as-Sahihah no. 623).

----------------------------------------------------------------

And Allah knows best.  

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/25/01 at 14:04:26
[slm]

So what about the non-virgins? The divorced and the widowed? What about them? Where do they fit in this? And why aren't these same rules applied to men? Younger men will have sweeter mouths and they won't long for thier former wives.

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Spring
06/26/01 at 17:22:23
[slm]

Sister Saleema, these are the words of our beloved prophet (saw). In whatever he says there is infinite wisdom, whether we understand it or not, please take care when referring to his words.

Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Anonymous
06/26/01 at 23:06:06
Instead of jumping to conclusions, or focussing on one
extremely narrow statement, let us consider that, even if virginity is a nice
quality, there are many other good qualities. What matters is the
person as a whole and how the two people relate to each other.

There are many converts who have done things they regret, not to
mention people who've been raised Muslim. The goal isn't to accuse them of
being on the verge of falling back into past wrongs, at every second. I
know very sincere convert muslimahs who were told by potential husbands
that they didn't want to marry them after all because they had
converted, and would likely reject Islam eventually. The brothers and sisters
who have moved on and accepted Islam should not be questioned about this
in excruciating detail, nor be made to feel dirty for the rest of their
lives.

Further, widows and widowers who marry each other, even late in life,
are wonderful to see. Why should old people be lonely and isolated?
Marriage is a blessing for everyone.

If you are young, or want someone young, and want to start fresh, with
no children, etc., that's lovely. But there are many important
qualities to look for in your spouse. Let's not fixate on one to the detriment
of clarity on the complete picture.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/26/01 at 23:17:56
Sister Saleema, these are the words of our beloved prophet (saw). In whatever he says there is infinite wisdom, whether we understand it or not, please take care when referring to his words.

Thank you for the advise, but I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning something that you don't understand. I'm not attacking Islam and I'm not attacking our beloved prophet (S).

I pray because I know it's good for me, not merely because God says to pray. I understand why praying is good. And yes, I have heard "Listen and obey" line many times. But sometimes that isn't enough. Why do Muslims always have such a negative reaction when people question something related to Islam?
[wlm]
Saleema

Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Anonymous
06/27/01 at 00:06:10
salaams,

It seems like this virgin matter is being taken too far. Its needs to
be looked into perspective - it is only *one* reccomendation that the
Prophet(saw) made. There is also other critera for choosing a suitable
marriage partner ie. religious piety, status etc and not the sole
criteria. If society lays prefferal to a particular kind of individual, then
that is society, not Islam. If men want to marry virgins or whoever they
want, without looking at piety and other matters, then thats their
narrow mindness, not Islam which is clear on how to choose a marriage
partner. Widows and divorcees should not be ostrachised. It is sad to see
society having a negative attitute towards them in general, people
shouldn't judge without full facts. Take a look at the Prophet's example on
marriage, which is the most perfect.

>>>>Why was the stress on marrying virgins put only on women?Why not
the men?<<<<

It would be interesting to see under what circumstances the
recommendation was made, but once again it should not be looked at acutely but
with the bigger picture in mind.

Peace and love to all.
Wa 'Alaikum Assalaam
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Arsalan
06/27/01 at 01:54:57
[slm]

I've been debating whether or not to reply to this thread.  I did not want to reply initially because the issue is not really as big as it would become by continuously prolonging it.  However, I feel I must reply because there is many misunderstandings here that are not healthy to remain unaddressed.  

First and foremost, nobody here said that virginity is the *only* quality that needs to be looked for.  Nobody said that it should be the *top* quality either.  That would be utter foolishness and complete ignorance of the Islamic spirit, and I seek refuge in Allah from these qualities.  It was stated by me, with evidences from ahaadith and texts written by esteemed scholars of the past and present, that virginity is *one of* several qualities that men should look for in their potential spouses.

Piety, righteousness, religiosity, family, behavior, compatibility, etc are all included in the list of qualities to look for.  But somewhere in that list, there is also *virginity*.  To deny that is denying the advice of Rasulullah (pbuh), and *none* of us wants to go that route.  Agreed?  

Unfortunately, that's what I see happening here.  That is, a complete rejection of virginity being given even a slight consideration by men.  Who are you take away that right from a man, when he was given that choice of preference by Rasulullah (pbuh)?  You may not mean to say that, but that's what you're coming through as.  Wallahu a'lam.  

All I'm saying is ... virginity is *a* quality that should be considered.  A quality which is perfectly acceptable in Islam, and a brother should not be demeaned if he wants it (after considering the other, more important qualities).  In fact, if a previously unmarried brother has 2 sisters in front of him, both righteous and compatible, then I would advise him to go with the one who was not married before.  And I would not be doing something wrong, because this is in line with the Prophet's advice himself (pbuh).

However, let me also say this.  For a man who was never married before to take as a wife who is a widow, in order to help her out, is a higher virtue in my opinion (wallahu a'lam).  Yet this is not a requirement on him.  His nature, fitrah, demands that he takes a wife who is a virgin, and for him to follow his fitrah is commendable.  However, for him to suppress his fitrah in this matter, in order to do something beneficial for the Ummah, is more virtuous (again, in my opinion - wallahu a'lam).  

But how can you demand such virtue from people?  Especially when Rasulullah (pbuh) never demanded it?

Now, to answer Sr. Saleema's question, what happens then to the widows?  My answer is ... Islam has a way out!  And I know you will frown upon this, but the fact of the matter is that this *is* one of the reasons why Islam has this option available.  And there is no reason to frown if the option is exercised for the purpose that it was availed.

The option:

Polygamy!

Yes.  I am saying that a man who already has a virgin wife can take a widow as his second wife.

But this is not the only solution, of course.  Another solution is, for widowed men to marry widowed women.  There are tons of widowed or divorced men out there.  Just look up any matrimonial site!

But the solution is *not* to take away the right of a man to choose a virgin wife for him.  That is dhulm (oppression).  A man might do it in order to attain more virtue, but imagine the severe consequences of such a marriage, when the brother loses interest in his wife, *naturally* (as explained by Imam Ghazali in his Ihyaa ... see my previous post)!  

Can you weigh the harms and benefits with me here?

One last thing.  For believers, it is ahsan (best) *not* to question matters which are clearly decreed by Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh).  I know you have heard it many times sister, but there's a reason why this verse is often repeated in the Qur'an.  And there is a reason why the example of the Bani Israa'il's "sami'na wa asayna" example is given in the Qur'an.  

Believers listen and obey.  No questions asked!  

That is Faith.  (see my post in response to Sparrow's question in the bebzi stand in the thread called "neither here nor there" ).

You may ask for an explanation.  But don't let the absence of an explanation stop you from following the order of Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh) with contentment.  In this case, the ahaadith are very clear in what they are saying.

I want to end this post, but let me reiterate what I said earlier:

It is foolishness to say that virginity is the top quality to seek in a list of things to look for in a spouse.  If I find a sister who is out of this world (extremely pious, of good nature and character, compatible, etc), but she was married before, I wouldn't think twice about marrying her.  Regardless of whether or not she was a virgin.  However, it is *one* of the many qualities that men *should* look for when choosing a spouse.  And that is what the Prophet (pbuh) has taught us.

And Allah (swt) knows best.

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.

P.S. The above rhetoric only applies to the present situation of the Muslim world in most of the world.  Situations of war, or other similar cases where there is a plethora of widowed ladies and single men, would bring a huge change in the priorities.  However, these cases are exceptional, not normal.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
se7en
06/27/01 at 02:10:37
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllahi wa barakatuh,

I just think there needs to be an emphasis put on the fact that women who are divorced and widowed have just as much a right to get married as do women who are virgins.  

Obviously, a woman who hasn't been married, who's lived at home with her immediate family her whole life, is going to be more sheltered and generally have a more tender and 'sweet' personality than one who's had to go out there and deal with the big bad world.. in some cases men are looking for that kind of personality, and if a brother has that kind of tenderness and innocence about him it might make sense for him to marry a woman who shares those characterestics..

However, if you're a brothers who's been married before, who has children or who's not so innocent because of one's past.. I don't think you should necessarily marry some innocent 18 year old.. you should not only look to find someone that has characterestics that appeal to you, but someone that would contribute beneficially to your current family situation, and you should also take into account the circumstances a lot of good sisters out there are in right now..

For example.. there are some divorced sisters out there who are amazing, whose eman and taqwaa and hayaa are a lot higher than some 'innocent' sisters I know.. but unfortunately whose previous husband's piety turned out to be a front..  I know some revert sisters whose hunger for 'ilm and constant struggles to better themselves islamically put me to shame..

I think a lot of times these few ahadeeth that mention preference for marrying a virgin may be used to justify a cultural attitude we may have.. this attitude of "used goods" and such..

Yes, Rasulullah [saw] married Aisha who was younger than he was.. but he also married Khadija* who was like 15 years his senior and a widow.. he married Zawda bint Zam'a who was a widow.. Hafsa bint Umar who was widow.. Zaynab bint Khuzayma who was a widow.. Umm Salamah who was a widow and had children.. Zaynab bint Jahsh who was divorced.. Umm Habiba who divorced her first husband because he returned to Christianity.. Saffiya bint Huyyay who was a widow.. and others..

So from Rasulullah [saw]'s own life we can see that marrying widows and the divorced are important.. it's interesting that some of the Mothers of the Believers were divorced.. so we need to get over this stigma that's attached to it..

As for this text:

[quote]Jabir Bin Abdullah (radiAllahu anhu) reported that when his father died, he left behind nine girls that Jabir had to look after.  Soon after that, Jabir married a non-virgin, and when the Prophet (pbuh) met him he asked him, "Have you married, O Jabir?"  He replied, "Yes."  He asked him, "Is she virgin or non-virgin?"  He replied, "Non-virgin."  He (pbuh) said:

"Shouldn't you have considered a virgin who plays with you and you with her, and she laughs with you and you with her?"

Jabir replied, "Indeed, my father Abdullah died leaving many daughters.  I did not want to add to them another young girl like themselves, so I married a grown woman to take care of them and look after them."  Allah's Messenger (pbuh) then said:

"Indeed, you have made a good decision.  May Allah bless that tremendously for you."  (Recorded by al-Bukhari, Muslim, and others).[/quote]

Dude, am I missing something here?  Did not Rasulullah [saw] at the end of the text, after learning of Jabir ibn Abdullah's family situation, say that marrying a non-virgin woman was a *good* decision?  so how is this text a recommendation for men to marry virgin women?  If anything, I would think this text shows how marrying non-virgin 'grown' women in certain situations is a good decision.

All this talk of virginity and non-virginity, for whatever reason, makes me think of "honor killings" (which are devoid of any honor) and makes me sick to my stomach.  The value of a woman is not based on her virginity.  It's not.  A non-virgin's life is as sacred as a virgin's, and she is as worthy of respect and honor as any other female.  

Anyway, my point is that all too often we get accustomed to making certain comments that in the wrong context can be used *against* Islam and can be used to undermine our understanding of the noble position Islam places all women - virgin, non-virgin, divorced, widowed, single, etc - in.  We need to keep in mind that what we say can have a serious and profound affect on how people understand Islam..

so I just want it to be made clear that a woman should be married for first and foremost her deen, as we are told by Rasulullah [saw].  Everything else, her beauty, her status, her sweetness, her ethnicity, etc etc etc comes after that.

wAllahu 'alam, just some comments..

wasalaamu alaykum.



* Once Aisha asked Rasulullah [saw] if Khadija had been the only woman he truly loved.  He [saw] replied, "She believed in me when no one else did.  She accepted Islam when people rejected me.  She helped and comforted me when there was no one else who would.."

wow :)
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
BrKhalid
06/27/01 at 06:11:54
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

The following is a similar narration to the Hadith as found in Muslim

[quote][color=Blue]Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported:

'Abdullah died and he left (behind him) nine or seven daughters. I married a woman who had been previously married.

Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me:

Jabir, have you married?

I said: Yes.

He (again) said: A virgin or one previously married?

I said: Messenger of Allah, with one who was previously married, whereupon he said:

Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?

I said to him: 'Abdullah died (he fell as martyr in Uhud) and left nine or seven daughters behind him; I, therefore, did not approve of the idea that I should bring a (girl) like them, but I preferred to bring a woman who should look after them and teach them good manners, whereupon he (Allah's Messenger) said:

May Allah bless you, or he supplicated (for the) good (to be) conferred on me (by Allah)[Muslim][/color][/quote]


[quote]Dude, am I missing something here?  Did not Rasulullah  at the end of the text, after learning of Jabir ibn Abdullah's family situation, say that marrying a non-virgin woman was a *good* decision?[/quote]

Yes in his circumstance it was a good decision

[quote]so how is this text a recommendation for men to marry virgin women?[/quote]

Because it says:

[quote] Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?[/quote]


[quote]If anything, I would think this text shows how marrying non-virgin 'grown' women in certain situations is a good decision[/quote]


Yes in certain situations it can be a good decision.



To me, if you look at the Hadith, our Prophet [saw] is saying there is a perceived benefit in marrying a virgin. However marrying a widowed or divorced sister may bring other benefits as also shown in the Hadith.


As for this idea of "used goods", it would seem to me that there is a subtle point here.

In my opinion a brother shouldn't marry a virgin for her virginity per se, but should marry a virgin for the *benefits* our Prophet [saw] has told us it will bring. To me there is an important difference there.

Again, it goes back to this underlying principle of actions being judged by intentions. If you marry a virgin because you want someone who has been "untouched" for your own satisfaction, are you really following this Hadith or are you in fact following your own desires?


To sum up I would agree with Br Arsalan

[quote]……it is *one* of the many qualities that men *should* look for when choosing a spouse[/quote]

Of course we all know which is the most important quality we should look for ;-)


Allah knows best

Wasalaam
Br Khalid
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/27/01 at 18:00:54
[slm]

Thank you se7en for that wonderful and thoughtful response.

And Arsalan--I would just like to make my position on polygamy clear that I think polygamy is still desirable today and in fact needed in many societies, although not necessarily for the reason that you mentioned in your post.

If men desire virgins then good luck to them in finding one. My problem is that men who are not virgins, most of the time they want virgin women. And it's perfectly ok for them to do so. But a virgin woman may not necessarily seek a virgin man. And men will often use hadith like these to support their positions.

And if you haven't noticed look around you and see how non-virgins aren't sought for marriage because they aren't virgins. Many times they never marry again. Some men will go as far as to get virgins from back home if they can't find a good pious vrigin here. That's not fair.

It is the duty of Muslim men to take care of the Muslim women in their socieities. Some rights in certain circumstances take precedence over other rights and they no longer are as important.

So perhaps virgin men should marry virgin women and non-virgin men should marry non-virgin women.

And this is an important issue. It's not something small. Don't underestimate the plight of women on this issue. In western countries because they aren't so poor, divorced women, widowed women, raped women can support themselves even if they will never marry again. But back home, in thrid world countries, many times it's impossible.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Arsalan
06/27/01 at 17:52:35
[quote]Some men will go as far as to import virgins from back home if they can't find a good pious vrigin here.[/quote]Import?  Didn't we decide not to use that term to refer to women in another thread?  

[quote]That's not fair.[/quote]Agreed.  It's not.

[quote]It is the duty of Muslim men to take care of the Muslim women in their socieities. Some rights in certain circumstances take precedence over other rights and they no longer are as important. [/quote]I couldn't have said it any better.  Agreed 100%

[quote]So perhaps virgin men should marry virgin women and non-virgin men should marry non-virgin women.[/quote]Yes, that's what I think.

[quote]And this is an important issue. It's not something small. Don't underestimate the plight of women on this issue. In western countries because they aren't so poor, divorced women, widowed women, raped women can support themselves even if they will never marry again. But back home, in thrid world countries, many times it's impossible. [/quote]Yes, I would know.  I have 2 aunts that were divorced at an early age (both were innocent, i.e. the fault was with their husbands and not them).  One aunt who became a widow at a crucial stage in her life.  None of them could marry again.

Jazak Allahu Khairan.  Alhamdulillah, I think we're "on the same level now" (as se7en would say) :)

Wassalamu alaikum.
Re: What is better..Marrying old person or young person ??????
Saleema
06/27/01 at 17:59:27
[slm]

I apologize for using the word "import." Please forgive me. I hope i didnt' hurt anyone's feelings. :(

I have modified my post. Again, i apologize from the depth of my heart. Sometimes i can be very mean and stupid and don't think about what i'm saying.

[wlm]
Saleema


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