Neither here nor there...

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Neither here nor there...
Sparrow
06/20/01 at 21:29:31
Greetings, Earthlings :)

We all know what various religions and their respective books say about believers and non-believers, but does anyone have any thoughts/opinions/quotes regarding those who struggle to believe but just can't get there in their hearts?  I feel as if I am constantly struggling to connect on some level with God but when it comes down to it, I just can't make that final leap of faith.  I do keep searching though, and believe that I always will.

So what does everyone think?  Is struggling to find faith the same as being faithless.  Is the struggle in some way evidence of faith? Does God think so?

Please note that I am not looking for anyone to provide life-altering answers, I'm just 100 percent curious.

Sparrow
Re: Neither here nor there...
Arsalan
06/21/01 at 20:06:36
Greetings to you too fellow Earthling :)

[quote]So what does everyone think?  Is struggling to find faith the same as being faithless.[/quote]No.  I think they're two very different things.

[quote]Is the struggle in some way evidence of faith?[/quote]Not exactly evidence of faith, but perhaps a sign that you will eventually achieve it.  I think it's the second step in achieving faith.  (The first is the birth of a *desire* to find faith).  I think that if you persist in your struggle with two things, you will eventually achieve Faith.  The two things:

1. Perseverence
2. Sincerity (open mind)

[quote]Does God think so? [/quote]I don't know.

If Allah wills, I'll write more on this later.  I don't have the time right now.  Good questions Sparrow.  

I pray to Allah that He helps you find the Right Path and keep you on it.  
Re: Neither here nor there...
BrKhalid
06/22/01 at 06:11:39
Hi Sparrow ;-)

[quote]So what does everyone think So what does everyone think?  Is struggling to find faith the same as being faithless.  Is the struggle in some way evidence of faith? [/quote]


Really interesting questions. Here are a few of my thoughts.


I'd turn the faith question around and look at it a bit differently.

Say we equate "Faith" with "Truth" and in trying to find "Faith" we are trying to find the "Truth". Therefore if we reword the question:

[quote] Is struggling to find faith the same as being faithless.  Is the struggle in some way evidence of faith? [/quote]


It becomes something like this:


Is struggling to find the Truth the same as rejecting the Truth is out there?

Is the struggle in some way evidence that you recognise the Truth is out there?


In my opinion I would say the answer to the first question is No and answer to the second is Yes.



Out of interest Sparrow would you say the following analogy is a bit too simplistic?


1. Recognise the Truth is out there
2. Create the desire to search for the Truth
3. Struggle to find the Truth
4. Accept the Truth


As you say making the leap from 3 to 4 is probably the toughest!!


Anyway good questions fellow Earthling and remember the Truth is out There (sorry couldn't resist ;-) )
Re: Neither here nor there...
amatullah
06/22/01 at 15:50:44
Bismillah and salam,
Sparrow,
Your questions are so insightful masha'Allah. Pesonally, I don't for a second believe that the struggle to find find faith is the same as being faithless. I must say though, rejecting faith is not the same as never have known it.

-And yes, I believe that the struggle in its self is evidence of faith. Why? Because the best of examples, the sahaba of the prophet saws, used to be in constant doubt of their faith. They were always scared to be "munafiqun" hyppocrites. Omar ra was given glad tidings of Jannah. Yet he used to say if he found out that everyone was to enter Jannah except for one person,he would suspect it was himself. Most of the sahaba used to belittle their good works and make big their doubts and thunoob (mistakes/sins). The ayas 103-105  from Surat Kahf used to bring them to their knees, crying in fear. So it seems to me to be a good thing if you are constantly feeling the need to strengthen you faith. To even achieve this state on its own is a challenge that requires struggle for some people.

-I don't know if Allah thinks so. But I know that if you intend to do good, he rewards you. If you do do it, the rewards multiply. He even rewards us if we don't do something bad that we intended. Also, Hadith Qudsi 15:
On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said: I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. (1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty. It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).

So my gut feeling as a muslima, is to be sincere in our search, try to understand the truth because subhana Allah, our religon is logical. We never have to accept things blindly, it does make sense if we try to learn from someon who knows. And finaly i feel we should believe he swt knows where we are all at and is merciful. The prophet saws told us to make excuses for other muslims at least 40 before we think a bad thing of them (for example if someone didn't call you back), so what do you think you should feel towards your creator, if you were to guess how he feels about you? Noone enters heaven by his own deeds, but by the mercy of Allah.

That is why I believe we do invoke two of his names alrahman and alraheem many many times a day. Those are his names of mercy. This was remarked upon by the Prophet (s.w.s.) himself, who taught that rahma, loving compassion, is an attribute derived from the word rahim, meaning a womb. (Bukhari, Adab, 13)

During the Muslim conquest of Mecca, a woman was running about in the hot sun, searching for her child. She found him, and clutched him to her breast, saying, ‘My son, my son!’ The Prophet’s Companions saw this, and wept. The Prophet was delighted to see their rahma, and said, ‘Do you wonder at this woman’s rahma (mercy) for her child? By Him in Whose hand is my soul, on the Day of Judgement, God shall show more rahma towards His believing servant than this woman has shown to her son.’ (Bukhari, Adab, 18)

My best advice is to make du'a constantly asking Allah to help you to throw the light of iman in your heart. To help you be sincere with his worship. "Allahuma a3inna 3ala thikrika,wa shukrika, wa 7usni 3ibadatik"

Re: Neither here nor there...
Barr
06/23/01 at 21:52:06
Salam! :-)

[quote]"This is the Book, let there be no doubt about it - is {meant to be) a guidance for all who r God-conscious (Muttaqun, those who have taqwa)..." Surah Al Baqarah:2 [/quote]

One look at the above ayah, one may think that the Qur'an is just for those who have taqwa... and maybe, only to those who already have faith... but we know that the Qur'an is for mankind; a Guide for mankind, due to many verses that addresses the whole of mankind...

So, how do we reconcile this?

Faith or iman is not something that is static, but rather, it is a verb, it moves and grows or even shrinks in each person. And faith is very much related to taqwa, as the level of faith influences and shapes our level of taqwa... which suggests => a development.

People do not just suddenly become so... erm... faithful, but there's a starting point, and it develops from there, with a very wide scope of that development. And searching for that development... well, I think there must be a realisation for that search, and hence a belief that such development exist... would that equate to being faithless, then? Would the existence of the seed equate to the non-existence of the potential plant? Things have got to start somewhere...

[quote]I feel as if I am constantly struggling to connect on some level with God but when it comes down to it, I just can't make that final leap of faith.  I do keep searching though, and believe that I always will.[/quote]

Alhamdulillah... May God's words lead U to Him. Sister, the hardest part may be the part when U think U have to jump from the ground that has been supporting Ur feet all along... but sometimes, we overlook that jumping off the ground, would only give us wings to fly to the higher ground that'll give us the peace in our hearts, and the jewel that we've been searching and struggling for.  

And alhamdulillah (all praises be to Allah), He has given us a book, in which He says, is a guide for those who are God-conscious... do we need to become God-Conscious, ever so faithful first, before this Book can be a guide?

Just as a "course is for an MA", mean that such a course, would lead to an MA.... The Qur'an, would lead to true guidance, to God-conciousness, to faith. And to higher stations of such.... I mean... it is for those who think :) 


Oh yes! I don't think U're neither here nor there... I think U're on a path to somewhere :)


Allah Ghoyatunna (Allah our Destiny)
Take care, Sparrow :-)

wallahua'lam (And Allah knows best)
Re: Neither here nor there...
Sparrow
06/26/01 at 08:16:12
Hi guys,

Finally found a chance to respond to the insightful replies I received.

Bro Khalid, I don't think your four stages...

1. Recognise the Truth is out there
2. Create the desire to search for the Truth
3. Struggle to find the Truth
4. Accept the Truth


...are simplistic at all, at least not in the negative sense of the word.  I consider them the bare bones of  the struggle for Truth, and necessary ones at that.  Also, the four stages must be accompanied with two things that Arsalan mentioned, perseverance and sincerity.    3 and 4 ARE the two most difficult, at least for me.  

Another point:  I find the concept of a higher being easier to accept than the nitty gritty, day to day requirements of organized religion. I know that for those who believe these 'nitty gritty" actions are a beautiful, day to day representation of their faith. Unfortunately it seems a bit random to me.  I don't think God wants me asking WHY? all the time, like my 2 year old niece!


Amatullah wrote  "I don't know if Allah thinks so. But I know that if you intend to do good, he rewards you."  Obviously no one can say for sure, but is that interpreted to mean that my struggle is pleasing to God instead of Him being angry at my inability to make that final leap of faith?  I live in horror of being a hypocrite and would never just "go through the motions" of faith like I see so many do.  I'd rather face God with my head held high and say 'I tried" than be ashamed of my false behavior.

And the struggle continues...

Sparrow


Re: Neither here nor there...
BrKhalid
06/26/01 at 10:37:25
Hi Sparrow ;-)

[quote]I don't think God wants me asking WHY? all the time, like my 2 year old niece! [/quote]


Sometimes I think even us adults are like a 2 year olds when it comes to understanding why certain things happen!!! ;-)


Most of the time we do know why but there are times when we don't and that's when we put our faith and trust in Allah and submit to the knowledge that He is the Most Wise and things we can' t comprehend actually happen for a reason.


Its like a mother telling  her daughter for the first time not to cross the road without looking around first.

The daughter doesn't know why the mother is telling her to do this but the mother in her knowledge and wisdom sure does.


Btw Sparrow, you ever tell us how you chose your nick? ;-)

Re: Neither here nor there...
Sparrow
06/26/01 at 10:38:36
I took my nickname from one of my favorite books of all time, THE SPARROW.  It's about a group of people who journey to another planet and each in his or her own way, comes to know God through the journey.  It's beautifully written.

Sparrow
Re: Neither here nor there...
Arsalan
06/26/01 at 15:08:50
[quote]I don't think God wants me asking WHY? all the time, like my 2 year old niece![/quote]You're right.  He doesn't!  BUT, this is after you have attained Faith.  

Asking questions, questioning things, is necessary to attain true Faith.  However, once Faith is attained, and you believe that God exists, and in His Prophets and Divine Revelations, then the questioning stops.  Because the whole definition of Faith is conviction of heart without questioning.  Obedience to God without the slightest bit of hesitation.  It is a sign of *lack* of Faith to question the wisdom behind God's decree and commandments.  So if you claim to be faithful, a believer, and you keep asking "why", you are not truthful in your claim.  However, if you have not made that claim yet, and you are still searching for the Truth, then you have all the reasons in the world to ask questions of "why" and "how" and "please explain."  

You get what I'm saying?

Let me mention here also, for the sake of completeness, that asking "why" is not completely forbidden for a Muslim.  It's the spirit behind the question that is really important, and not the question itself.  If the question is being asked not because the wisdom of Allah is questioned, but simply to increase one's Faith, then there is no harm.  However, if the questioning is due to a doubt in the wisdom behind a decree, then that is faithlessness.

For example, Muslims don't eat pork.  It's what may be called a "nitty gritty" detail.  For a Muslim, who believes in Allah as the Most Wise and Most Supreme Creator of the universe, and believes that He sent Muhammad (pbuh) as a guidance to all mankind, will not hesitate to obey the command that came directly in the Qur'an.  He may not know the reason *why* pork is forbidden, but he doesn't care, because he wants to please his Lord, period.  

If a Muslim turns around and says, "I hear and I obey what Allah has asked from me, without any hesitation or second-thoughts.  However, in order that I may do it with more conviction in my heart, and so that it becomes easier for me to fight Satan's whisperings, can you tell me why pork is forbidden?  Is there a reason for it that is known?"  Such questioning is allowed.  Of course, if the answer cannot be given to the question, that still does not prevent the Muslim from obeying the orders whole-heartedly.  

You see, there were disciples of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) who wanted him to perform miracles in front of them.  They were already believers in his Prophethood.  But in order for them to have a firmer belief, they requested that from him.  And he did not deny them.  He performed miracles in front of them with the help of Allah, and it helped them to become firm in their belief.  This story is mentioned in the Qur'an.  However, once again, if Jesus had refused to perform more miracles upon their request, that would not have produced a doubt in the disciples' hearts, if they indeed were faithful.  

Sorry if I have rambled.  And I ask Allah to forgive me if I have said something wrong.  




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