Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Women's Rights |
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| Anik |
| 07/15/01 at 01:43:40 |
| A.A. a staunch women-lib friend of mine (not muslim) questioned why Islamic women and women and general, shouldn't be allowed to bare skin in public ... or walk alone... she said we all shoudl have equal; rights and why can't a woman go where a man can go, etc. Sisters, maybe you guys have been through this... maybe this is an old thread as well, sorry if it is. RSVP A.A. abdullah,. |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 07/15/01 at 03:13:24 |
| salam women do hav equal rights as men!!!! there are many restricions and responsibilities a man has in Islam, and women don't:) here r sum things that men can't do :)wear gold :)Wear silk :)touch women that they can marry and here are sum of there responsibilities they hav, these r'nt must's 4 a women: :)must earn 4 there familys :)must not liv on wife earnings :) if married, must supply wife with wat she wants (full responsibility) rights women hav that men don't: :-)r allowed to wear gold :-) r aloowed to wear silk :-)can ask 4 anything fr there hubbys :-)if they r a mother, get more love fr there kids :-)heaven lies under the mothers feet (shes a women) ok, i hope this has helped:) wa-salam btw, women r told to cover 4 very good reasons |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| zamzam |
| 07/15/01 at 07:08:56 |
| [center][color=Green][slm] Allah's punishment is for the enticing men and for the enticing women 'cos they lead the ppl astray. A woman who walks bare skin would fall in this category. She wants ppl to mind their business but she's equally conscious of ppl's attention. I mean the enticing factor. Allah wants us to be modest and to help each other toward piety. A muslima who is not in proper hijab would not be helping 'er brohters in Islam. The same goes for men. As far as non-muslims are concerned they have to follow the way of Allah in day to day maters in a muslim country but in a non-muslim country Muslims should try to avoid places where there is much obscenity (lowering the gaze etc. if cant avoid) [wlm] [/color] [/center] Zamzam |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Nazia |
| 07/15/01 at 12:39:49 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, [quote]a staunch women-lib friend of mine (not muslim) questioned why Islamic women and women and general, shouldn't be allowed to bare skin in public ... or walk alone... [/quote] This is a topic that has been beaten to death my Muslims and non-Muslims alike. And more often than not, what ends up happening is that the Muslim ends up simply defending their beliefs as the opposition sits there and rolls their eyes feeling sorry for the poor, lost, oppressed Muslim. The question your friend is asking would be irrelevant if she took the time to understand Islam as a whole as opposed to trying to understand bits and pieces of it out of context. Humor me for a second. Imagine that I gave you this amazing mystery novel that was 2500 pages long and asked you to read it and tell me what you thought. You take the book from my hand, open it up to page 2459 and read, "Dear sir, it is obvious that the crime was committed by the mysterious blond woman who..." You then give the book back to me saying, "I'm sorry, this book is pure nonsense, it is clear that this novel makes stereotypes against blonde women making them all out to be criminals." Would I take your opinion on the novel seriously? Of course not! Because clearly, it is impossible to look at one aspect of any situation and draw a valid conclusion therefrom. Perhaps the entire line in the book stated: "Dear sir, it is obvious that the crime was committed by the mysterious blonde woman who was witnessed by 15 passerbys, 3 of whom caught the act on video." Clearly, you would have missed the point. Back to your friend. You should explain to her: a)that looking at Islam from this singular viewpoint is counterproductive and illogical and will no doubt produce negative results. And that if she was seriously interested in hearing the truth, she would not approach the matter in such a condescending matter. (ie--assume it to be wrong and then expect to have it proven correct according to her ideologies--which she is obviously assuming to BE correct and the standard for which everything else will be judged against.) b)that Islam is not a list of do's and dont's. It is a formula for perfection. It is a mentality, a philosophy, a way of life. By reducing it to mere rules and regulations, she is eliminating the beauty from which these rules stem. Islam, if implemented properly, will yield a utopia. Allah (SWT) therefore made rules that would apply to an entire Ummah--not simply to the individual. I could go on, but really, you understand my point. :) Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| amatullah |
| 07/19/01 at 19:50:35 |
| Bismillah and salam, sister Nazia may Allah yefta7 3alayki ya ukhti masha'Allah!!! I have something to write about this later insha'Allah. |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Anik |
| 07/20/01 at 19:06:33 |
| A.A. yeah well I understand the point, but I think that in a way we as muslims should stop trying to justify everything to fit right into this society and this world, like, when we say men and women have equal rights, I don't think in Islam that they do... maybe certain rights and freedoms... but definitely not EQUAL... I think maybe we should then try to explain how maybe having unequal rights is justified... I don't know, when it comes to this I am so lost lol... but definitly, the limitations of women are much more than on men... at least I would think so (Allah Subhana forgive me if I am wrong). asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Sister |
| 07/27/01 at 17:23:15 |
| slm Just a quick note on the "equal" rights, before I forget. I have this great tape of a conference in UK where the role of women was explored, and "equal" rights was tackled. I will post the name of the speaker when I find it, but a quick summary was that in Islam there is no concept of equality in the western sense. There is no notion that if a man can do such a thing, a woman can do the same thing. There is no "If a man can wear a certain style, then a woman should wear the same certain style." There is no "whatever a man does, the woman should also do." Because men and women are refered to seperately in Qur'an. We have different roles and responsibilities that Allah has blessed us with. OK some of our roles and responsibilities are the same, for example seeking knowledge, but once you get into the view that we have to be 100 per cent equal, you are going against what Allah requests of us. That is what the speaker said in a nut shell, I'll post the details when I find them. wlm |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| meraj |
| 07/27/01 at 18:19:21 |
| slm, hmm.. sister that defenitely makes sense... my understanding of it was this: that although men and women dont have the *same* rights in islam, they are *equal* in the sense that they are equally fair and just... liek we may not be able to do the same kinds of things, but because Allah is the Most Just, the rights that He gave us are equal, though different. does that make sense? ??? or is that just restating what you said? :) a little analogy: 1 + 3 = 4 2 + 2 = 4 though the numbers used to add up are different, they are still equal... ok thats kinda simple and i just came up with that off the top of my head.. if its wrong, please feel free to rebute it :) |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| se7en |
| 07/28/01 at 00:20:55 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=3283]this[/url] thread discusses the difference between "equal" and "same". wasalaamu alaykum :) |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| eleanor |
| 07/28/01 at 06:48:34 |
| slm [quote] but definitly, the limitations of women are much more than on men... at least I would think so [/quote] Dear brother, you're looking at it all lop-sided! Women have freedom in many more areas than men... Women don't *have* to go to the mosque Women don't *have* to pray Jummah in congregation Women don't *have* to go out to work Women don't *have* to contribute financially to the household women can spend their wages on anything they want.. Men *have* to pay bills, provide home, food and clothing for wife and kids Men *have* to go out to work to provide the means of supporting themselves and their family Women are given so much safety and security in Islam. It's really a wonderful system for women. As for wearing hijab.. today I observed a teenage girl dressed in a very tight top and miniskirt waiting for a bus. This old man comes up and stands about three feet away from her and leers at her, looking her up and down and really staring at her. she got all angry and upset about it. now I was thinking "why on earth did you dress like that if you can't deal with the attention it gets you?" women in hijab have *respect*. Automatically. wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Anik |
| 07/28/01 at 12:39:00 |
| A.A. yeah Sr. Eleanor, that last point I though was very true... some women ask me, why is it that women are treated as sex objects (to cover up)? I guess that's an age old question... are women sex-objects in Islam though? or let;s put it this way, are they viewed as naturally exciting a man's desires? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| jannah |
| 07/28/01 at 14:01:58 |
| that's the whole point anik... you are NOT treated as a sex object when you are covered.. you become just a human being and men treat you as such. as to do women excite men's natural desires... ask yourself.... if you were working with someone who was not covered etc.. versus someone who does... where is it more likely that you fall into tempation with? |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| eleanor |
| 07/29/01 at 13:07:14 |
| slm Brother Abdullah, this thought occurred to me a while after I had posted yesterday. The fact is, by nature, men are the ones who go after women. They are excited by what they see and act on that impulse. Now before you say anything, I'm not saying all men are like this, but definitely most. Example: a woman dressed in a very short miniskirt and tight top walks down the street. The majority of men will definitely look her up and down and have sinful thoughts. Some may even approach her, speak to her and try to make a date with her, all the time leering over her and looking at her body. A man dressed in only a pair of shorts walks down the street. Most of the women will probably look at him but they won't leer at him, approach him or probably even have lustful thoughts about him. And I seriously doubt (and this is the important bit) that any women will approach him on the basis of having a closer look, or wanting to ask him out. Now why is this? By nature, it is always the male that seeks out the female. They find a potential mate and then go to any ends to get together with her. That's just the way it is. And therefore in his infinite wisdom, Allah decreed the women should wear hijab, for their own protection. Better safe than sorry. It's a message to men that the woman's body is not up for grabs (pardon the imagery), that not just anyone can have a look and that approach of any nature is forbidden. It's saying I'm special, worthy of respect. Someone gave an example of a banana. You pass a peeled banana around a group and an unpeeled banana around a group. Which one comes back in better shape? And finally, the age old question..why is it only women can't do this that and the other, where men can do as they like? It's because men and women ARE NOT THE SAME: Equal, each in their own role, but not the same. If we were the same, then men could have babies and women could do hard physical work. Hope this made sense and pardon me if I made any mistakes. the above is my own formulated opinion. wasalaam eleanor |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| humble_muslim |
| 07/30/01 at 08:40:34 |
| AA Mashaallaah Sis Eleanor, that was VERY well said! It's very strange, but really nice, to hear this coming from a woman like you, brought up in the west, and who hasn't (presumably) studied Islam in a deep, scholarly manner, because this is EXACTLY the way one of the famous Pakistani scholars, Maulana Maduddi, described the reasons for hijab. But it sounds very different, and much more meaningful, coming from a woman! And BTW, in your earlier post, you forgot one other obligation of men, which sadly few of us have even though about ... Jihad. |
| NS |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Anik |
| 07/30/01 at 23:40:29 |
| A.A. yeah guys I guess that is true but the fact remains does it not, as Sr. Jannah said, women cover so to be not treated as sex objects, so a woman, naturally, is a sex object. btw... men do not always go after... If I go fishing and set a line with bait, who is going out to catch? wanna dress like you cacthing men, it'll happen... that isn't a man going after, it's a women manipulating man's libido to bring the prey to the hunter... but before the command to cover up, what was wrong... I am sure women did not wear hijabs before then...? So for the thousands of years before Rasool-Allah [SAW] it was okay and then, not? the argument is (for this person and others) that if God made a woman a certain way, then why unnaturally cover it all up? that means that the body is a sex object, and I do think it hinders women in certain ways, but that's okay i guess if it is Allah Subhnana's Will. exactly... a woman's body is like a weapon... keep the gun in the holster or the situation gets Dangerous... asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| Nazia |
| 07/31/01 at 00:56:53 |
| [quote]the argument is (for this person and others) that if God made a woman a certain way, then why unnaturally cover it all up? that means that the body is a sex object[/quote] What is unnatural about covering up? Why do we have to make ourselves so animalistic? I think we will all agree that Islam is a religion for all people and for all time. It is not some indivudual thing to be molded and shaped to fit our present and ever-changing needs. It is solid and if implemented properly--it WILL yield the utmost perfection because Allah is perfect, and Islam is His religion and thus PERFECT. Muslims will usually agree with the aforementioned statements; no doubt non-Muslims will have issues with it :) Nonetheless, to understand the tenets of Islam, one must first understand and respect its basis, because if we don't, we are doing an injustice not only to ourselves by hindering our scope of knowledge, but we are doing an injustice to the religion itself. Back to my original statement--it is VERY natural to cover up. If we all walked around naked, we'd probably all have skin cancer, sun spots, bug bites,frost bites, diseases etc! We'd die of heat stroke, pneumonia, etc all the time! Think about the animal. They all have some sort of fur/feathers/hair etc which keep them protected because more often than not, they are unable to protect themselves. (I've never seen a gorilla applying sunscreen have you?) Allah (SWT) in His infinite wisdom gave us the ability to reason, to think, to act. Thus while we were given the basic epidural layers as a basic protection, we learned to cover ourselves up from the very beginning! (Even Adam (AS) wore clothing of sort!) Clothing is also a form of civilization, a form of discipline. Civilized societies wear clothes! I know you're thinking that you never said people should run around naked, but essentially by saying the "covering" is unnatrual, you(ie, your friend) implied that "uncovering" is natural. And you have to look at the entire implication of your argument, else it is not an argument. Do you see what I am saying? I know that this is not what you meant and this is not what you were looking for. But do you see what the problem is with your argument? The question of "why" we cover can be addressed and explained BEFORE we even touch on the issue of modesty and haya! Everyone in previous posts already gave the reasons involving haya etc but that didn't satisfy you. Which is why you made the statement about our natural state being "uncovered." But do you see how that enters an entirely different ballpark? I want to reiterate--Islam is for EVERYONE. It is about establishing a PERFECT lifestyle. Its not about what works best for YOU individually. Its about what works the best for EVERYONE. Ask your friend this. If EVERYONE in the WORLD adopted her philosophy, would the world be a better place? Because if you think your philosophy is RIGHT, then you would have to agree that if EVERYONE adopted it, there would be an overall benefit for everyone, or clearly your philosophy is no better then the one you are opposed to. For example, if someone wanted to argue that drinking alcohol should be ok for people above a certain age, they would have to agree that if EVERYONE accepted this it would be ok. So lets say we all accept this. Now ALL of us...EVERY LAST ONE OF US, starts drinking. (Because we have to factor in the worst case scenario if we want to make a serious argument) We drink when we want, and how much we want. Some of us drink a lot, some of us only drink a little. Some of us barely drink because we hate the taste. Now would the world be in a better place? Clearly not, because Alcoholism would be up, drunk driving would be up, spousal abuse, child abuse, cancer, heart disease--everything would have increased! Now lets say someone argues that NO ONE should drink. Would the world benefit? You bet! Would every single individual benefit? Not if they don't want it to! But this rule DEFINITELY has the potential to benefit EVERY SINGLY PERSON! You see, this matter goes FAR beyond dress brother. You will meet few people who say that every aspect of Islam is perfect--except for the fact that women have to cover! No, you better believe that people harboring this mentality have no doubt missed something else along the way, thus skewing their ideology. Islam is all tied together. This rule didn't just come out of left field. It is tied beatuifully to the concept of haya, respect, and even physical care for our body. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Islam is like a puzzle. Individually, each piece may seem vague and uknown, but once put together with all the other pieces, it is a whole a complete picture--a whole and complete way of life. Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia |
| Re: Women's Rights |
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| amatullah |
| 07/31/01 at 07:25:18 |
| Bismillah and salam, I just want to add to sister Nazia's post something...even animals try to be private. I had cat that will preen and go to nature's call as privately as she can. I think it is interesting that alot of westerners talk as though covering up is such a foreign concept. Up until 50 years ago most women had to cover up for church. And a few decades before that it was common for them to cover up all the time. If we were liberated of this? Has the world become a better place for women? then why have all the other social problems arised for women more? Some churches they still have to cover up. would your friend consider a nun oppressed or made a choice? Are muslim women incapable of making similar choices? I think it is also important for people to start thinking of hijab in terms of a command specialy for women. To some degree yes it does have to do with it being a rule that will make the world a more pleasant place to live (since men are more easily aroused) and it does add for much meaning in relations. People have to acknwoldge you as a person whether they like it or not when they are talking to you, marrying you etc. But what I mean to emphasize is it is in essence ALL ABOUT US women. When the hijab aya came revealed, what the women used to wear at the time like long wide clothes but the hair and neck showed. So it is not to help them cover up from men because they were too sexual. I believe, it has benefits for us as women, beside societal. When you wear hijab you become different inside, lighter and enlightened, your time is more yours, you are more focused on what is real, you are less competitive in the superficial which strengthens sisterhood skoooo mcuh in my experience, you wear less make up which makes your prayers easier since you are not so worried about making wudu, in the same time private and personal beauty increases...your skin is softer from being less exposed, your hair has more shine. Different women will tell different things of how it really improved them personaly. I don't know how many can say their wearing shorts and short skirts has done all that for them, if they are lucky they get a tan without cancer 3afana Allah wa eyakum. Also I wish you would tell your friend, if she was truely a feminist she would be a muslima. I read somewhere in a comparison, how we don't have to fight for women-only spaces, funds, custody, so much of what the women liberation movement is trying to achieve, etc. Ask her to think abou that. |
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