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is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/15/01 at 17:03:11
Salam Sisters I was wondering what the best age to have kids is? I would rather start having a family in my late 20's or eary thirtees but so many people are saying I should have them earlier because pregancy and birth is risker later on. I thought as generations were progressing and with women having children at later ages women were evolving to have kids at a later age. Can anyone tell me from a biological perspective whether its okay to have kids later on?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/15/01 at 22:17:54
salam if a girl is matured then it means she can have babies biologicaly, also islam allows you to get married then, so why wait, just reproduce the muslim ummah w/salam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/16/01 at 05:33:25
My friends mum got married at 13, he was born when she was 14. Thats best, what are women waiting for once they have reached the age where Allah has given them the ability to have kids they should start having them.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
mango
07/16/01 at 08:47:15
Motherhood is a very serious responsibility. It takes a certain level of maturity. I'm not saying to wait too long to have children. It obviously is different for every individual. Some women can take that on at 14, while others need time to fully grasp the full meaning of motherhood. I'm not quite sure but i heard that waiting after 30 to have children raises a woman's chance of breast cancer quite significantly. But I'm no expert.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/16/01 at 09:27:36
I don't see anything wrong with women waiting until their late 20's or early 30's to have babies.  I think that even though a female may physically be ready to have kids at 13-18, I think it is too young.  No so say that they will be bad mothers, but I think that things like education, growing up, and learning about yourself are important things to do before having kids. It is said that after the age of 35 a woman's chances for certain things like Downs increases.  But then again these are issues that a woman has to discuss on a individual basis with their Dr. There was a time that right after marriage people expected the kids to start popping out right away.  And still I know that when one gets married, they start asking "So when are you having kids?"   But the reality is that women now a days, want to accomplish things before having kids.  Some may want to further their education, or further in their jobs, or some want to save up enough money for a house.  And there is nothing wrong with these. There are so many opportunities out there for women.  Motherhood is not the only thing they can do.  Even though kids are great and wonderful, amazing, and rewarding. We all know what is best for us, and what we want out of our lives.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/16/01 at 15:41:20
Bismillah and salam, The right age to have a baby in my opinion is the age you get married. If you are too immature to get married and start a home, then you are a single and you don't have a babies. If you are ready when asked to get married then by agreeing, you should be ready to be a wife and mother insha'Allah. We are not supposed to use birth control unless thre is serious problems of not being able to teach them or health. Other than that, Allah IS the provider. Do not worry about money.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/16/01 at 15:53:05
[quote] Other than that, Allah IS the provider. Do not worry about money.[/quote] I understand what you are tring to say with the above comment.  But, I also think that if you can only afford 1 kid, or 2, then thats all you should try and have.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Jenna
07/16/01 at 18:35:47
Wa'alaikum As'salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh! Well said amatulla and mango! Subhan'Allah I was 14 when I got Pregnant with my son, and as far as education is concerned and learning about your self, Subhan'Allah, its like this,  I have always been in home-school all my life, thats the way I did it when I got married and am still doing it that way. Alhumdulilah.  And as far as I am concerned about "finidng who you are" its simple. I am a Muslim Women placed on this earth to worship and serve Allah ta'aala mean while Allah Ta'aala gives us happiness and pleasure in this life by allowing us to get married and have children. We do the best we can as far as obeying Allah ta'aala and Insha'Allah in the end we hope and pray to get Ever-Lasting Paradise!Allah huma Ameen!!  I believe in young marriages and I also belive that girls (Women when they get their period) are capable of taking care of children. But that part is up to the parent. How are you going to raise your daughter? Everyone has that right to raise their children however they please, but the only way for a girl to be able to marry young etc. is however the parent(s) decide to raise her.  And as far as how many children to have, that is up to Allah ta'aala I believe the best thing is du'aa. This one(at least it was to us) was a very nice one "Oh Allah please give us children whenever the time is right. Only you know Allah" Because really the decision is up to Allah no matter how we try to pervent it or make it happen, it all comes from Allah. The choice is up to you. Wa'Allahu Alim Jenna

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/16/01 at 21:19:52
Bismillah and salam, sister shakira I would like to share a few things with you in order to help you with this issue. First I would like to say that the idea of us being able to afford soemthing is false concept. It is not up to us. It is a westernized concept of a major sin to us Muslims. Allah is the provider. In the Quran, there are many many ayas about rizq (provision) they all state it is by Allah. The most interesting ones: 6.151 Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to indecent deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. This aya was directed to the poor who already live in poverty and in fear of not having enough for themselves if they do keep the children...saying don't worry Allah will provide for you and them. When Allah is talking to someone who is living ok but is in fear that if they have children they many not be able to afford the future...Allah mentions them (the children) before you: 17.31 Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin. The more you have a deep understanding of the quran, the more you realize that the full spetrum of income is irrelevant. You have no guarantee it will remain the same even. All we have to go on is the indication that regardless if you are already poor or if you fear poverty, do not. Some interesting stories: The prophet saws was asked by some men who were practicing a kind of natural birth control if it was ok. His answer was soemthing that means that if Allah wills a breath to be, it will be. A friend of my husband they used birth control for three years, when she got pregnant...they had triplets! Allah has promised us that he takes care of the provision. (la nas'aluka rizqan) So here there is my father's co-worker, with every child he swears that he gets a promotion. Subhan Allah! This does not mean that for sure your income will be more, but there is such thing as baraka (blessings in it. ie stretches alot more, lasts alot longer) If you have strong faith you would not be able to deny that. We have heard many stories of the prophet make enough drink and food for hunderds from one small thing. And those should be enough to strengthen our faith in Allah. That is why he allowed such beautiful miracles to happen. So don't let those stories pass you by without contemplation dear. In terms of pursuing other things, like education or to further your career or to by a house or whatever, I really advice you sister to look into audio lectures, as they are interesting and give you the issues around these from Quran and sunna, not from a western perspective. There is nothing wrong with doing these things, but it shouldn't be a priority, or the norm for us really. And who is to say you cannot do that with children? My mother may Allah bless her did her high school and other degrees all after marriage. She has her masters even after marriage al7emdulilah. The important thing is to decide to live (inna salalti wa nusuki wa ma7yaya wa mamati lilahi rab al3alameen) for Allah. If you decide to go into islamic studies fine. But marriage is more pleasing to Allah. If you do chose marriage, then children, are more pleasing to Allah. A person once said to imam hanbal (will check the story for exact wording insha'Allah) that the only mistake you did shaikh was that you had gotten married and had the children, which distract you from your worship now. And his answer was that verily when I wake up to take care of a crying child, it is more worthy in Allah's eyes, than much of your worship as a single man. As marriage fulfills ones half of their religion. I hope this was informative.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/16/01 at 22:01:33
[slm] Really, it is up to the married couple to decide what is best for them. Personally, I do not want children while I am still studying. And as far as using birth control--sister Amatuallah, there is a difference of opinion. Girls today are not as mature as they were even 3 decades ago and I doubt that most of them can handle a child, let alone a husband at the age of 14. I know I would not have been able to do so. I look at my 14 year old sister and I see a little child, who still argues over silly things with my mom and me. People raised in a western environment most probably aren't ready until they are 18 years old or at least in thier ealy 20s. Actually, I should not be saying in a western environment only. I come from Pakistan and it is rare to see someone as young as 15 or 14 year old get married and have children. [wlm] Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/17/01 at 07:57:22
When any of us see our kids or younger siblings we see children, does not mean they are children. My grand mother and my aunt see my dad as a child. And he is a grand dad of two. People are people, no matter where they are brought up. Kids in the west have messed up attitudes, but so do adults. If parents don't get their kids married off when Allah turns them in to adults with adult desires and hormones, the parents have no one but them selves to blame when their daughter runs of with some kaffar man. Or at least needs to go for a abortion and a quick marriage back home to some poor soul who has no way of knowing what the person he is getting married to has been up to. Briton has the highest teenage single parents in the whole of the western world, if they let the kids get married when they are able to, instead of when kufr law thinks they should, may be this wont be the case. Instead now they are giving kids of any age morning after pills in schools with out parental knowledge. You may think that this does not effect Muslim kids, but what you need to remember is Muslim kids are sent to the same schools and watch the same TV as kaffar kids, so carry the same idea in western lands. So behave in the same way. Often men come crying in to the Musjid like young pre pubescent girls, they go to the Imam and ask him to write down a dua called a hijab for them. so this dua will act as a hijab(barrier) between his daughter and the kaffar man she has run of with. The fact is Hijab is not a dua, that is a bidahi hijab, real hijab is the barrier that is placed between her and kufr. the man raised his daughter with no hijab, he sent her to school to get brainwashed in to holding these ideas about loving and lust. he raised his daughter in this non-Islamic society where there is nothing a man can do when his daughter has a boy friend. he has no one else to blame but him self, and because he refused to apply the Sunnah hijab on his daughter now he seeks a badah one. A friend of mine told me a doctor friend of ours told him that 90% of the people in his clinic are young Muslim girls seeking abortions. Being born in to a Muslim family does not place a Hijab between the child and kufr. Men who start families in non Muslim societies and start crying when their daughter becomes a prostitutes or son becomes a drug dealer, are no different from the man who throws his new born in to the sea and starts crying when he sees it cant swim, crying while watching it slowly drown. Instead of jumping in a pulling him out he goes to the Imam and asks him to write a badahi dua called "not falling in to the water".

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/17/01 at 08:05:20
The reality is that we all have so many differnt veiws on this subject.   I am so greatful to have been able to finish college before getting married.  My parents were very firm on education, and the importance of it.  As well as they were in finding a man to marry who would love, and respect me. Young girls should be encouraged to finish their studies before marriage, and I would even argue learn the importance of working.  Marriage is not a guarantee.  There are times that things go wrong.  Things that young girls should be made to think about, other then the lovey dovey things of marriage. Think about if your husband runs into hard times at work, as we have seen in recent times, no ones job is a sure thing.  What if he is not able to work because of a illness?  What if there is a divorce?  What if there is a death?  What if the husband is irresponsible with the finances?  And so many other things.  These are only some of the reasons that a education is important.  So that the woman can go out if needed to help maintain the family.  If something happens to her husband then what.  With no education and not husband, then she is up a creek with no paddle. Of course you can continue your education after marriage.  But it is just that much harder.  And once the kids come, well lets face it, your kids are going to come above all else.   I don't think young women have to be married to be complete.  I so admire parents who push their daughters to further there educations.  And as far as God providing ---- there is nothing wrong with going out and tring to get more for yourself.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/17/01 at 09:31:12
You want to know some thing? This is the excuse all the men say when people complain to them about their daughters. A man was asked  "why he hadn't got his daughter married and why was he sending her to get a carrier?". The man replied "what if there is a divorce?" He was told "Your daughter isn't even married yet, and already you are breaking up her marriage?" You know if people spent more time finding their daughter a good husband instead of preparing for her divorce before she is even married, then maybe their would not be so many spinsters and divorces. What often happens is the man delays his daughters marriage to such a extent, that it becomes very difficult to find her a husband, so he excepts what ever is on offer, resulting in unsuitable matches and divorces and worst of all hellish marriages. If people spent more time worrying about getting their daughter a good husband that she would be happy with and he would be happy with her, instead of preparing for divorce, then there will be no need to prepare for divorce as it will probably not happen. Instead of working to gain what she needs in the event of losing her husband before she even finds one, why doesn't she do that after she has lost him?   What sisters need to remember is that they are not men, if you want to know what men look for in women ask men. It is not what you think. Problem is too many men will tell you what you want to hear instead of the truth. But when we are amongst our selves we say it openly.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
bhaloo
07/17/01 at 09:49:18
slm The issue of if the husband loses his job or if there is a divorce, or who will look after all these children was not a problem a long time ago, because families took care of each other, aunts, uncles, parents, etc. looked after each other.  Now we have gone away from that sort of extended family concept in the west to a, "your on your own", and as a result there are problems that have arisen. I remember reading a good article on this topic, I think it was somewhere on the jannah.org/sisters site, I'll have to check.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/17/01 at 10:08:46
I don't know about America, but here it is often more profitable being unemployed then having a job. Single parents are taken care of and in Europe things are better. Any way, may be the fact that the girl is busy chasing a carrier instead of helping her Mum with the house work has some thing to do with her getting dumped after she has got married. The thing is it is the Husbands job to provide for her, it is also her brother's, son's, and father's. It is better to know our Islamic responsibilities and tell others to remember their Islamic responsibilities then a girl wasting her life and her youth chasing useless education and a pointless carrier. Instead she should use her youth in her favour to try to obtain the best Husband that she can obtain. Instead of lettering her youth escape while she is busy trying to catch a piece of paper with writing on it that we call a degree.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
jannah
07/17/01 at 11:01:25
[quote]wasting her life and her youth chasing useless education and a pointless carrier. Instead she should use her youth in her favour to try to obtain the best Husband that she can obtain. Instead of lettering her youth escape while she is busy trying to catch a piece of paper with writing on it that we call a degree. [/quote] wow jehad and here i thought your views couldn't get much worse... can i just ask you: what the heck are you talking about? do you actually believe the words you say?? do you realize that hundreds of people- muslims and nonmuslims are reading this board thinking what you say is Islam! ?? anyways can I just say what you wrote is absolutely ridiculous not to mention antithetical to the islamic way of life.  what do you think women are.. meat??? brainless idiots??? maids??? child-rearing robots??? people always claim we should go back to the quran and sunnah right, so let's... best example for humankind was the prophet [saw]. did he spend his life trying to find the best wife?? or encourage women to do the same?? uhhh no.  he spent it calling people to the way of Allah, teaching and educating. his wives were the greatest aabidahs in history. no "men" these days could compare to what they practiced and sacrificed. are you going to ignore all the scholarship of women through islamic history? shall we ignore all the hadith and knowledge that aisha transmitted... and here was a woman who had NO children and NO husband for the greater majority of her life. do you find *any* example from the best generation of humankind that in anway encourages or exemplifies what you do? no.... education is never useless and really you and we should be encouraging the younger girls of our generation to become greater muslims and people, instead of telling them their self-worth is based upon MEN.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
akbalkhan
07/17/01 at 11:35:40
First time for me reading the sisters part of the board- alhamdulillah, you all are very conscientious, and a good example for me on how to post- should have read it sooner!!!!! One of the minor signs of the Qiyamah is that the woman will consider to have a baby a burden and will be happy to have no children, and a woman who has children will be unhappy ajd consider it a burden. Allahumma, how far have we come only you know, how far we have to go, only you know. It appears to be unnatural and against nature to even think twice about having children or not.  But to be honest with you all, my wife and I would love to have children but we fear for raising them in this society and due to the fact that as a couple we are just coming around to being 'true' Muslims. Reading your posts has helped, alhamdulillah. Qamar Akbal Kaan Sorry to impede on your space sisters....

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/17/01 at 11:44:43
Whatever way you look at things, women can do some thing men can't. making babies. It is the west and feminists who undermine this role and refer to it as "child bearing robots", we as Muslims have the utmost respect for this role of women. I personally think it's the feminists who want the women's role to be in the service of men. Because previously women used to be at home taking care of what matters most. While now women pay some one to take care of what matters most and go of chasing carriers to increase the work force and drive down wages. And when they come home after a long day of work they still have the housework to do. The prophet did marry the best of women. They are the mothers of the believers. Contrary to popular belief when a Muslim women gets married she does not leave her brains behind at the Alter and becomes a mindless robot. Aisa rd is a example of this. It takes real brains to raise a family well. Getting married at 13 does not mean you are empty of brains. Where do youth behave better? Countries like America were women often have kids when they are 40, or Yemen where girls get married at 13? You don't here of many kids getting in to gang warfare, prostitution and single parenthood over there. There is a difference between useful knowledge and useless knowledge. Quran and Sunnah is knowledge which is use to get closer to Allah while a degree in Accounting is knowledge that gets you closer to a useless bit of paper called a degree.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
mango
07/17/01 at 12:11:26
There is no doubt that being a mother and a student is very difficult. Personally, i would like to wait to have children until i'm done with school. I'm not saying it cant be done.my mom got married when she was 23 and went on to finish her master's degree and get a PhD too. Look, there are many factors one has to consider before getting married. Most 14, 15 16 year olds are not ready to fulfill those duties. Besides, there are girls who wanna get married, but it's hard to find decent muslim men who are available. I got married when i was 18 and alhamdulilah I am very pleased with my life and my husband. But it was somewhat strange for my extended family because they are used to getting married mych later. It was odd when my grandmother told me that i was too young to get married. I thought she'd be the last person to think that. Regardless, every person is different, our personal circumstances differ and it isnt right for me to preach at what age people should get married. Well.. people should try to get married at a young age..but it's for them to decide. If a female or male feels like he/she is ready for marriage they should discuss this with their parents. Parents should listen and seriously take in the suggestions of their children.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Ayla_A
07/17/01 at 12:13:39
[slm] Jehad While I agree that the west does not focus enough on the value of being a mother and motherhood, you also must consider that if a girl is uneducated, because she chose to get married at a young age and have children, that if something should happen to the husband, who is going to help her in the financial responsibility of raising those children. While I know your rebuttal will be community and family, that is a pipe dream and the community will not be able to help her like she will require, she will be doomed to clean other peoples messes  to earn minimum wage or drawing welfare while trying to raise her children, her children will then live a life of poverty, only to repeat the cycle of poverty because she will not be able to afford for them to go on to university or post secondary education. But lets say, she went to university and got a degree, so if something happens to the husband, she can go to work as a professional, earn a decent living, raise her children, send them to school to prevent a life of poverty for themselves?  Wouldn't you wish this for anyone that has gone through the tragic loss of their spouse? I know I have rambled on...sorry if I am not clearn, but this is an issue that is very close to my heart. [wlm] Ayla

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Nazia
07/17/01 at 12:30:42
slm, [quote] There is a difference between useful knowledge and useless knowledge. Quran and Sunnah is knowledge which is use to get closer to Allah while a degree in Accounting is knowledge that gets you closer to a useless bit of paper called a degree[/quote] I'd just like to say that while knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah is the BEST of knowledge, it is not the ONLY knowledge.  And I think it is unfair to refer to any other type of knowledge as "useless", for a man, or for a woman.  Think about the med student who studies endlessly for years, with the intention of pleasing Allah by trying to help those who are unable to help themselves.  Or, the finance student striving to create a halal way of banking for the Muslims.  Or the engineer who works hard to provide for his family.  I know what you are going to say---these jobs I mentioned are all the responsibility of the husband.  However, all I am saying is that by labeling such professions as "useless" you are doing an injustice to men and women alike.   Br. Jehad, I think you are leaving out a vital factor from your considerations. You see, it would be nice for us to get married young, but if we can't--for whatever purpose, it doesn't mean that we should just give up and enter a life of haram!  It is our DUTY to fight the whisperings of shaitan.  So if Shaitan whispers in our ears to date or do drugs or whatever, it is OUR fault for listening to him!  Yes, if our parents did not try to teach us about Islam, they will be held accountable for that, BUT ultimately, once we have reached the age of maturity, WE are held accountable for our own actions as Allah (SWT) has given us a brain and free will. This has been a strange discussion :) Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/17/01 at 12:33:52
Bismillah and salam, Sister Saleema: Can you provide proof of what you say from Quran and sunnah please? "Really, it is up to the married couple to decide what is best for them." Erm no not really.  It is ultimately their choice but it is up to Allah swt. Why is it that people and my sister especialy are so fast to say it is up to us when Allah and his prophet have guided us? Why don't we say it every time someone reminds us to enjoin in what is good and forbid evil? why don't we say well really it is flexible it is up to us everytime someone what Allah and the prophet say about that! Any time anyone mentions what is right in terms of making an islamic (not a muslim)family, people jump in to say it is up to them. Well ofcourse it is ultimately their choice, but no need to blur the truth and make it sound like a strange concept to islam. Because it is an obligation from Allah and whether and how much you do do it and your sincerity is up to you. My sisters there are countless ahadeeth dealing with women, let's get back to the roots. Yes you are right 14 is a child nowadays. But that is what i am saying, when you are ready for a union, then you are ready for what comes along with it. But in the same token some of the stuff jehad said was true, if you raise them as such among ones who act as such, then they will be. But regardless, they become hormonal as well as that immaturity, which is a mix for trouble. sister Saleema Can you give me the information that you mention there is a difference in teh birth control between scholars outside of the two situations i mention: they are in fear they cannot teach the children properly, health reasons? shakira why the over emphasis on education? the prophet never made it obligatory to seek worldly knowledge first. First you work on your deen. Marriage is importnat part of deen. And no you don't have a guarantee about marriage, but you should not go in there with a spec of doubt that it will not work. Also again what really worries me most in this thread is the lack of trust in Allah as a provider. This is a major sin you guys, it is one of his names alrazzaq! 020.132 YUSUFALI: Enjoin prayer on thy people, and be constant therein. We ask thee not to provide sustenance: We provide it for thee. But the (fruit of) the Hereafter is for righteousness. PICKTHAL: And enjoin upon thy people worship, and be constant therein. We ask not of thee a provision: We provided for thee. And the sequel is for righteousness. SHAKIR: And enjoin prayer on your followers, and steadily adhere to it; We do not ask you for subsistence; We do give you subsistence, and the (good) end is for guarding (against evil). Religion stuff before worldly matters, because HE IS THE PROVIDER! Wallahi sister you don't get a spec more than Allah lets you. Allah has given a role an obligation for the husband to work, the woman only if it is necassary, this does not mean to get a 2nd car, and buy a bigger house, etc. "for females, women are liberated from all social, political and economic obligations. They are freed from all these burdens so they can enjoy the joys of housework and child-bearing and caring. And this is regarded as the special status that Islam has accorded woman". We get the right of custody because we are more suitable to raise children, why deny this? We are freed from those things, so we can also do things that please Allah. I don't understand how doing something that is fardh kefaya and mixing freely while at it and many live without mahram, and end up hearing and seeing much evil, is more important than to worship acts of more private nature, you can still learn by the way at home or married, that are fardh like pleasing your husband?? I am for education, I have two degrees myself and I plan to insha'Allah get a third one. I realize we need to live to our potential, and we need the female doctors and counsellors, but first get your basics straight. What did Islam truely ask of us? It made it so simple really: -3an anas ibn malik narrated: the woman if she prays her five prayers, and fast her month, and was chaste, and obeyed her husband, can enter paradise from whichever door she pleases. -3an 3abdulra7man bin 3of narrated: ...any woman serves her husband 7 days, there will close 7 doors to jahanam of her, and opened up 8 in jannah for her to enter of whichever one she likes -abdullah bin mas3ood narrated: if a woman washes the clothes of her husband, Allah writes for her a thousand rewards, and forgives her a thousand mistakes, and everthing under the sun will make istighfar for her, and she is raised up a thousand degrees. -Paradise is under the feet of mothers the last hadeeth alone should make us aspire to do that part of religion more than other stuff. It seems obvious to me instead of going in to the men's fields, making it the norm for no real neccesity is only making all suffer. Women end up complaining about the ignorance of men (which i agree) when if we do our jobs right in transmitting the right information to children both male and female within two generations this world would be a totally different place. But noone wants to start with themselves the work of akhira, always placing the importance on what pleases you now. I am not saying we have to be confined to homes, there is so much work to be done inside and outside homes, but we need to set our priorities and imaneyat(faith basics) straight.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/17/01 at 12:54:06
[quote]  What sisters need to remember is that they are not men, if you want to know what men look for in women ask men. It is not what you think. Problem is too many men will tell you what you want to hear instead of the truth. But when we are amongst our selves we say it openly. [/quote] Of course women know they are not men.  Every man looks for different things when looking for a wife.  Just as a woman looks for certain things when looking for a husband.  My husband for one, wanted someone with a college education.  It was important to him.  As well, as woman who could help out if needed, and one who could fend for herself should the need arise. I don't think that by talking to young women about the possiblity of divorce is a bad thing.  Or a husaband that can loose his job.  That is called, making her look into the future, and helping her develop the skills needed to deal with certain things.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Mehak
07/17/01 at 14:46:04
Assalam u Alikum,  Hmm...........I am sorry to enter this discussion with so many people who know what they are talking about but I dont understand one thing:if u educate ur daughters enough about deen and then also send them to college ,what's wrong with that???I  mean,Iam not the perfect example of a Muslimah, but the way my parents have raised me and my siblings, Alhamdulillah we pray regularly 5 times a day, observe hijaab and all the proper things a Muslim should do or atleast we try to do so. And now I am working and going to college at the same time. And my mom gets worried about it too but I know what my religion is and I am aware of my limits so why would I want to go and have a b/f, Allah forbid or do something stupid like that???I think if u want to save ur kids,it only depends on how u raise them.   Also,since we r talking abt education, my Khala's husband just died about 4 months ago(may Allah rest his soul in peace, Ameen). She was married at the age of 21 and has 5 kids, MaashaAllah. Now my maternal Grandfather isnt alive either and my Khalu didnt have any other bros and sisters. So, she now depends on her brothers to take care of her cause she just went to school until 10th grade. So,waht if at sometime my mamoo's cannot help her as MaashaAllah they have their own kids to take care of so what can happen to her??I mean ofcourse my mamoo's are going to help her out and take care of her but what if something bad happens, Allah forbid??So,if she had a degree she wouldnt have to look upto anyone to feed her kids or marry her daughters.   These are just a few of my thoughts and I maybe wrong but I would say Wallah'u walam. Wa'salam,and forgive me if I offended anyone,cause htat wasnt my intention.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/17/01 at 16:50:47
Wow when I posted this topic I didn't think it would result in full out warfare - cool it guys :) As for girls not being educated because the man is supposed to provide while the woman makes babies.....? Well erm what happens when us women need to see a Dr? We need to see female Dr's who need to have gone to university! Who is going to teach us women how to read and write when we need to read the recipie books to cook all the meals for our husbands :) - we need female teachers! I think women need to feel ready. And each individial woman is different. The more you know the more you'll be able to offer your children. Its not only love that your baby needs but stimulation and knowledge to help them grow and nurture into good muslims. Being a mother is hard work at any age and I am just curious how the 14 year olds managed? Did you have lots of help from your mothers and family?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BroHanif
07/17/01 at 17:59:42
A.W.W. All praise is due to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, Abundabnt Blessings be on the Noble Prophet( peace be upon him) and all good muslims. My two pence worth after a while.... If I may add my personal experience, the right age for babies...well there is no age, age is a number which from time allows people to grow within themselves. Some people are more experienced say at a certain period in time than others, therefore some have more intellect, understanding of certain material than others. This is shaped by Allah and no one else. Because it is Allah the one who provides us understanding and reason no one else, it is Allah the one who guides no one else. As for babies well one could have them at anytime it could be the case of many people where they only bear babies at the later stages in life, if later is meant to be say 40-50 years of age. Or it could be as early as when the woman is physciallly matured. However, what does the right age mean to many ? Does it mean raising a child ? Trying for a child ? Supporting a child ? etc etc. Let me give you an example, Today in the Quran Tafsir the Shiekh gave a beatuiful example, that if you ask any Muslim to associate Shirk with Allah in the form of a statue or a carving then even the distant of muslims will say NO that is Shirk I belive in Allah and I don't belive in Idols. However, place a million or so dollars or pounds in his or her pocket or place some riches of the world in front of them and then they will say that yes from these materialistic objects I can perform whatever action I need to undertake. This the Shiekh said takes the reliance of Allah most high, away from a person, because now his or her beliefs are on a certain object, material or methodolgy that will attain them their goal and not on Allah. If we look at the Companions of the Prophet, tears will flow in our eyes look at the lifestyles of Musaib bin Umayr, Hazrat Fatimah R.A., Hazrat Anas etc etc. What these Shabis did was rely on Allah for everything, from taking the next step to raising good sons like Hasan and Hussayn R.A.. We too need to have strong reliance on Allah because no matter how many degrees we do or have, or how much we have in our bank account or how much of whatever we have, it is nothing compared to reliance on Allah.  I'm not saying degrees and money is a bad thing but it needs to be channeled correctly. Is it not true that if all the people in the world came to do you harm, then they would not be able to harm you if Allah did not want you to be harmed. Or if all the people in the world came to do you good then they would not be able to do any good, but only that that Allah has accredited with you. If we travel in the land then we will see that Allah most wise, provides for all, Allah provides for the rich and for the poor. If the poor had to rely on materilistic objects then the earths population would indeed be very small(Look at the many poor countries of the world). Surely if Allah can provide for those people who discredit Islam, then do you not think that Allah will provide for you, who are good Muslims and Muslimas. Didn't the Prophet Saws say to a Shabi R.A., if you ask, ask Allah. My feeling is that whatever you want in life, there is only one provider and one giver, Allah. If you want to have a little muslimah or muslim baby while you are studying go ahead, get married and make dua to Allah. Or if you feel that you want to have kids later on then go for it, however, your reliance should be on Allah. Live Islam for today and try and do as many good acts that you can, for who knows where our death will be today. I seek the forgivness of Allah. I seek the forgiveness of Allah. I seek the forgivness of Allah. Salaams Hanif

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Laboogie
07/17/01 at 18:38:33
[slm] BroHanif, I just wanted to thank you for your post. I trully agree with what u said ...you have been one of the few brothers/ppl who has actually said something postive about this whole discussion. I pray that Allah keeps you strong in your faith,on the straight path and protect your family...ameen.  Again I thank you for your kind and sincere words. peace Laboogie

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
sarah
07/17/01 at 21:16:54
assalaamu alaikum, lets not add new rules and regulations to islam that don't exist.   lets not mix up cultural village-type chauvenistic mentalities with the openness and flexibility of islam. if Allah thought that we should ALL begin having kids at age of 14, he would have clearly said so.   if He thought women should not study or work outside the home he would have said so. if Allah expected all women to be mothers just cuz they were biologically capable, he would have said so! why would not all the wives of the prophet whom we all look up, have had children then???? let go even farther... marriage is half of our deen and therefore very important, but when it gets down to it, it is not fard if you are able to guard your chastity. it is a sunnah. having children has much blessing, but if Allah swt thought that was all women should have children, he would have made it fard. in fact he did leave it up to us, to plan, but he plans also and it is upto him to implement! He has said that have children has much baraqa. But he has also left it up to husband (after consulting with their wives) to decide when and how many children they intend to have, by Allahs permission. and if he thinks we should have more... well all our planning will make no difference! not all women are capable of caring for children at age 14. not all women are capable of taking care of and raising as good muslims more a one, two... or whatever their limit.   Allah swt has created us all differently and SUBHANALLAH, he has left much space in this deen to accommodate all of us. even the divorcees and spinsters ;)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/17/01 at 21:41:12
Sister Saleema: Can you provide proof of what you say from Quran and sunnah please? I think BroHanif's post answers it well. "Really, it is up to the married couple to decide what is best for them." Well of course it is up to them. Whatever comes their way is from Allah, i think that goes without saying. Please don't put words in my mouth. but no need to blur the truth and make it sound like a strange concept to islam. I don't think *anyone* who responded was trying to blur the truth about Islam, astaghferuallah. they become hormonal as well as that immaturity, which is a mix for trouble. Just because you see a few bad apples in a crate doesn't mean all the apples in that crate are spoiled. sister Saleema Can you give me the information that you mention there is a difference in teh birth control between scholars outside of the two situations i mention: they are in fear they cannot teach the children properly, health reasons? You can search on this site if you like. We discussed this before. Marriage is importnat part of deen. And no you don't have a guarantee about marriage, but you should not go in there with a spec of doubt that it will not work. The mahr, that's stipulated also in case of divorce. I know that it's also a gift, but it's other purpose is to provide for the wife in case anything happens. So what's wrong with stabilizing your future with furthering your education? Kind of like the same thing, isn't it? Also again what really worries me most in this thread is the lack of trust in Allah as a provider. This is a major sin you guys, it is one of his names alrazzaq! Come on, that's accusing your muslims brothers and sister of a big sin. None of them ever said or implied that they don't trust in Allah as the Provider. Wallahi sister you don't get a spec more than Allah lets you. I see my education as His means of Providing for me and I am very thankful to my Lord for it. We get the right of custody because we are more suitable to raise children, why deny this? *No one* every denied this *anywhere* on this thread. [wlm] Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Lisha
07/18/01 at 18:47:07
slm, i personally think all ppl r different and so r their thinkings:) anyways, i think it depends on u, sum ppl can cope at a young age others can't;) take care, w'salaam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anik
07/18/01 at 19:04:16
A.A. are their any doctors on the board? I thinkstatistically the best average age for having a baby when the female body is at prime 26... physically they are I guess just equipped t handle it best and not too old to experience certain problems -on average. but now that we've argued and argued about how old women should be when they have babies... let's look at it from  amen's side (or is this the wrong place?) WHAT ABOUT BROTHERS? WHEN IS A GOOD AGE FOR BROTHERS TO START HAVING CHILDREN (cause it does take two to do this one Masha'Allah)? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.
NS

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/19/01 at 08:46:07
""  WHAT ABOUT BROTHERS? WHEN IS A GOOD AGE FOR BROTHERS TO START HAVING CHILDREN"" Anik very good question. People kept mentioning the "what if" stuff. It is best to do what is natural and believe in rizak min Allah for the unforeseen circumstances, instead of worrying about divorce and death. If people keep putting off marriage to try and prepare for what will happen if it brakes down, it is very likely that they will never even get married. Or the only men left over for them are the leftovers that most women don't want for good reason. You want to know some thing? A degree is just a piece of paper with some writing on it; it is not a magical talisment that results in high paid jobs. And any way we are Muslims, we don't believe in magical talisments. Most of the people I know who are loaded haven't got much education, and almost all the people I know with degrees are working in fields which have nothing to do with their degrees. Cause educated professions like teachers get really rubbish money. People do need basic skills like reading and arithmetic, to gain good jobs, but degrees are not that important. Their main use is as a showing off item, kind of like a good car or a pretty wife for men and expensive jewellery for women. If a marriage has broken down or looks unstable, what's to prevent her from looking to get educated then? It is true that some 11, 12, 13, 14 year olds may look too ncompetent to look after kids to us, due to their western culture. But so do a lot of 30, 40, 50-year-olds for the same reason, some people say, "you can't teach a old dog new tricks". The fact is England has the highest teenage single parentage in the whole of the western world. They are taking care of their kids, if they would have got married, it would be them and their husbands taking care of their kids. In a Islamic country Muslim women being doctors is very important. But we need to remember a Islamic country has the infrastructure of Women only hospitals. Here in the west, women doctors treat men and vice versa. But if a Muslim women wants to help other women by training as a doctor so saving them the embarrassment of going in front of men, that's up to her, as long as she does not do harram stuff to get to it. My friend's sister is training to be a doctor; her classes are full of Muslimah. Before operations the scrub up place is the same for men and women, all the others go semi naked to scrub up. She is the only one who refuses to attend those classes. It is true marriage is not farrad so it is up to a lady if she wants to get married or remain a spinster all her life. But covering her awrah is not left up to her, it has been made farrad for us, and she is committing harram by going semi naked in front of non muhram men, even if she has obtained a rubber stamp from a government appointed priest, Islam has no clergy. Even though it is true that Islam has not made it farrad for us to get married, it seems very sad when you see people devoting their whole lives to their carrier until they retire and then dying alone. And why do they do so? Because western society has brainwashed them in to thinking that climbing the ranks of the corporate ladder is fulfilment, and raising the next generation is a wasted life. Who are the real oppressed? The young teenage girls who get married in the villages back home, who are able to get married as soon as their bodies and minds start to desire men and spend their lives bringing up their families in the best way they can. Or the so called liberated women of the west, who spend their lives working to benefit the company they work for, leaving the upbringing of their kids to a paid stranger, if they can find time to ever get a chance to have kids.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/19/01 at 09:30:35
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Islam provide at all times for a woman? When a girl, her father is responsible for her. When a wife, her husband is responsible for her. When divorced, her father takes care of her or in his absence her brothers. When widowed, her sons are responsible for her. Either way, isn't it the case that a male relative is always responsible for her. Anyway getting back to the topic at hand: Is there a right age to have babies? Probably no. Its too dependant on individual circumstances to say there is ONE right age!!!

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
M.F.
07/19/01 at 12:08:58
Assalamu alaikum, Biologically speaking, and all other discussion aside, the best age to have a baby is after 20 and before 35.  Otherwise, the risk for having a child with physical or mental disabilities is greater.  Esp. after 35. As for the rest of the discussion, let's face it.  Different things work for different people.  There are some people who are capable of devoting their entire lives exclusively to being mothers.  There are others for whom that would be depressing, and there's no need to get into what effects a depressesd mom can have on her children.  So, I say, since there are so many different opinions, and few people agree with each other, and none of us really have the knowledge to say that this or that is the best thing for a woman, then why don't we just accept that there can be more than one "right way" of doing things?  Please?  :) assalamu alaikum Mariam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/19/01 at 20:33:21
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Islam provide at all times for a woman? Correct me if I'm wrong but how man people follow Islam today the way that if should be followed?  :) When divorced, her father takes care of her or in his absence her brothers And brothers may have wives of their own who might not like the fact that money that could be spent on them was being spent on the sister and her children. [wlm] Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Kathy
07/20/01 at 04:50:44
slm In this society, I think the best age to have a baby is when the mother's deen is correct. I am so greatful to Allah swt that I did not have a child while in my twenties. Now I am ready to teach him Islam and am ready for him to see me live in Islam.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/20/01 at 04:57:50
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]And brothers may have wives of their own who might not like the fact that money that could be spent on them was being spent on the sister and her children. [/quote] In that particular situation the Brother would have to find a way of fulfilling his Islamic duty to both. One would hope that his wife would understand that his sister has no one to look after her, and that being her brother the responsibility rests with him. [quote]Correct me if I'm wrong but how many people follow Islam today the way that if should be followed?  [/quote] That's why need to educate ourselves and in particular our children so that this isn't the case ;-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/20/01 at 08:15:27
[quote] When a girl, her father is responsible for her. When a wife, her husband is responsible for her. When divorced, her father takes care of her or in his absence her brothers. When widowed, her sons are responsible for her [/quote] That is very nice, but what about the divorced woman whose father is dead, and she has no brothers?  And has not sons, or sons who are still young in age.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/20/01 at 08:33:00
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]....but what about the divorced woman whose father is dead, and she has no brothers?  And has not sons, or sons who are still young in age[/quote] Good question Sr Shakira ;-) If a woman does not have a close male relative to be responsible for her what should she do?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/20/01 at 13:11:13
what should a women do when she has no male relatives? Get married. it is not farradfor her to get married, and hallal work is not harram. but the ideal state is marraige.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Lisha
07/20/01 at 13:34:44
[quote]it is not farradfor her to get married, and hallal work is not harram. but the ideal state is marraige.[/quote] slm, what about a women who can't find a job or a hubby??? sowwy to say but All ladies need to b a lil bit flexible:) take care, w'salaam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/20/01 at 13:47:19
Bismillah and salam, Sister saleema It is not wrong to warn people and point out nicely things things that they may not even be aware that it is a big sin. It's not just going around accusing them for no reason and no point. It was clearly implied. We are mirrors to each other and if we don't say anything we will be asked about it judgement day. People in islam should be able to take criticism better than compliments even. ok if we are talking about delaying marriage or having children for education then this is getting clearer. First of all, i didn't say anyone was intentionaly blurring the truth but it was and still is happening in the thread. clearly if you are not ready for marriage, you are not ready for children. So i hope noone will keep arguing about maturity and who is ready at 14 and who is not! The argument seems to be branching in two ways. Either the education is "His means of Providing" and we went into how the family is responsible for the financial needs and wants of the women. Yes it is true that not all families do this properly. And I am not canada census, but why are we mixing a theory with the reality. I have never seen any muslim girl in my school years or known a family that she was paying for her own education that lived under her parents roof. This is a blessing from Allah, we should not imply it doesn't exsist in our communities. i mean yes,some worked on the side for their own extra wants. But we have to acknowledge this blessing coz it makes all we say about how islam elevated our status and provided for us so hollow if it is not practiced. The poor muslim families are even providing for the boys nowadays i know going to college, and the boys work on the side or get scholarships. Perhaps there are some very rare cases where someone is totally on their own, most likely not living at home and fighting or divorced but this is not the norm. And this would be a considered a necessity for the women to go in those fields. So why is the focus still on education as more important then a marriage that pleases Allah and has less haram things attached to it? And yes it is implied that it is up to the women through out this thread, even though Allah and his prophet have encouraged it. We never seem to say this when others enjoin us to do good as given by our deen to say this except when it relates to women, we jump in to say islam is flexible it is up to us. i honestly think this should be addressed within each of us to think about for herself. And i wish that we would as women be more encouraging each other to be strong in our faith,live islam without compromises, and make available the right atomosphere for us to learn and all to grow in a healthy manner? So ok yes in theory of islam if it is needed go ahead, but how many muslim women that are in university are just regular middle and upper class in it for a career? If these sisters put all that energy into fixing thes generations, things would change alot faster than the decision to go in there and prove it ourselves. There are different kinds of knowledge and most sisters have the basics of deen and jump into specializations of worldly knowledge first. Yes we need the doctors and teachers, etc. and again i am all for educating women, and women educating themselves. But there is a difference on how. It is ok to have a male teacher, but it isn't ok to sit next to a guy to learn. If they are so keen on knowledge for its sake why aren't they in girls colleges? correspondence? learning without a degree? noone said that Allah say don't get an education. But he did give us guidlines on how to go about these things. The prophets wives all after his nubuwa if they worked they worked from home, making baskets etc. Also, the prophet pbuh said in terms of direct worship which is fardh and a pripority like prayer, that we are allowed to go to the mosque. But he also did say what is better than that is to pray in our own garden. and what is better than that is to pray in the middle of inside the house, and better than that in the middle of our own room, and better than that is in the middle of the darkest corner of the room.  This has great implications for purifying yourself if your eyes are open. I know that some scholars aruge in north america it is better to go to the masjid than stay at home watching tv and never learning or strengthening the community bonds.But how many of the uni girls ever show up to the mosque around finals? Where are the women references of fiqh and hadeeth in our communities? yet so many busines and computer science girls. by the way, i could not find anything anywhere in this board or out about how it there is a difference of opinion among scholars outside of the two situations mentioned, that it is up to the married couple to use birth control.(What i did find is part of the fatwa talking about the mentality going into marriage wehn asked if you can use birth control just until you figure out if the marriage is stable and successful. Perhaps you can look it up.) On the other hand we have many ahadeeth from the prophet encouraging marriage, encouraging having children. Remember that he doesn't speak of his own accord, it is wahi from Allah. one last point, what does it mean about a person if they agree that they are the most suitable in a community to do something and refuse to do it, or keep delaying it, for worldly or selfish reasons to accomplish things and buy a house, etc? yes i know a few women who are honestly going through their degrees with the intention to serve Allah. May Allah make their path safe. jehad the dog and old trick is in real bad taste. Allah has elevated humans above animals, the saying demeans and dehumanize others. wassalam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anik
07/20/01 at 15:02:40
[quote]Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Islam provide at all times for a woman? When a girl, her father is responsible for her. When a wife, her husband is responsible for her. When divorced, her father takes care of her or in his absence her brothers. When widowed, her sons are responsible for her. Either way, isn't it the case that a male relative is always responsible for her. [/quote] asalaamu alaikum, I think that when we say that a women is not capable of being responsible of herself, we might be assuming that a woman can not stand on her own and that her actions are, like a child, not her own but of some guardian.  Not only that, I think Islam provides more to women than just a man at every stage of her life to be basically "in charge" of her... and if that is then true, that it does bring some sort of inferiority to women, does it not? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Barr
07/21/01 at 01:31:56
Assalamu'alaikum :-) [quote]In this society, I think the best age to have a baby is when the mother's deen is correct.[/quote] MashaALlah, ukhti... I think that hits the nail right on.... I think this has been mentioned before, but what is the role of women, really? Why are we here? To produce children? Really? To me, the reason we are on earth is none other than to worship Allah... to be the slave of Allah... to be His vicegerant on Earth. I mean, that is what being Muslim is all about... And THAT is our ultimate role and reason why we're here. But how can we optimise that role, and complement it with the noble, yet heavy task to be that vicegerant.... particularly relating to when ALlah has bestowed on us the responsibility of being a mother. Yes, there is no right age... Though age does not equate to maturity, but it is an indicator of that maturity, and understanding of life itself. But, I feel that it is not just producing the ordinary American next door, the ordinary Brit... but we are moulding hearts and minds, that have Allah as the pivot in their lives, and cause positive changes and improvement to the world... the next generation of the vicegerents of Allah. Perhaps, our concerns should be on how we can optimise ourselves so that we can be the mother who knows that the children that she bore is not hers... but they are ALlah's, and a trust that Allah has given us - hence, we shape and colour their hearts and minds in the path of Allah. Most of us do not live in traditional societies, where girls do not go to formal schools, or be professionals. Most of us live in societies that would need our inputs. Akhawat, most of us live in societies where most converts are women, women are entering universities and workplaces, women are taking leadership roles. For those of us, whom Allah has guided and given the realisation, energy and the ability to think...What is our plan of action when a lot of these are taking place? Be contented to marry and produce children once our monthly period starts? Is that really the best for us, for the society? Who's gonna be there to make sure that women's issues and concerns are taken up? I'm sorry if I sound hostile, but we live in a community, we don't live alone. Most of us, live in socities where Muslims are a minority and non-Muslims are the majority. Each action of ours, whether it be education, marriage, family, social conduct has an effect to that larger society, and that is when da'wah has to be optimised in the best manner. Yes, all of us would want the best for our families, probably be married, have children and be happy...but what is our priority. Does the absence of pursuing our education and life skills only has marriage and family in substitute? I know lots of sisters who are not highly educated but they're still single at a late age. My point is, should we sacrifice education (whereas Allah commends those who seek knowledge, albeit their gender), becoz, our "role" is to be a mother? Each and everyone of us have different priorities, and different life paths and portions that Allah has given to us. Some of us are academically inclined, some are not... some of us marry at 18, while others only do at 34... But whatever it is, I just hope that when we make decisions, whether we wanna get married, or go studying first... that we don't make those decisions without thinking of of the impact on society. Maybe, a sister prefers to be married then pursuing her education at a young age... and some may want to stabilise her deen adn pursue her education first. Well, tafadhal... that is her choice... but in every choice or whatever choice... I think we've got to think whether we have actually played our Primary role... and that is whether we are being the vicegerant(khalifah) of Allah on earth as we have promised. Maybe, we should review what being a khalifah of ALlah on this earth means to us. I don't know whether I'm being clear or perhaps, I only give confusion to what I wanna say.... afwan. But a lot of issues are being raised in this thread... and these are just some my thoughts... wallahua'lam :-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/22/01 at 04:47:45
NewJehad are you actually married or are you single because I think if I married you I would cry every night! Your views on women are so freaky man!! Females shouldn't be doctors because they have to scrub up semi naked???? People with degrees are poor and teaching is a rubbish job??????? Illiterate people are the ones who are successful???? Hmmmmmm well does this mean that people who teach the Quran have a rubbish job? Does this mean people who can't read the Quran and are illiterate better than people who can? What on earth are you talking about half the time New Jehad. I for one am completely offended by your views on what a sister can and can not do!

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/22/01 at 05:13:50
Bismillah and salam, I would like to share something about learning which I read last night and found it important to share here insha'Allah: "One of the greatest gifts of Islam and Muslim civilization to many aprts of the world today, has been the gift of literacy. The first word which began Muhammad's prophetc mission was "Read!". Even though Muhammad pbuh was an unlettered prophet, the emphasis on a literate culture (in addition to the strenths of an oral culture and tradtion) is striking and accounts for among other things, the historical sense of Muslims and the preservation and transmission of knowledge. The prophet's pbuh concern for having his followers literate can be demonstrated by a single fact. Any person who had the unfortunate lot of becoming a prisoner of war was immediately offered his freedom by the prophet if he was literate on condition that he taught some Muslims how to read and write. Each community and society in the world needs to have a campaign to promote universal education. One of the mnimum requirements of this education should be functional literacy. Apart from their mother tongue, Muslims need to be literate in Arabic, for knowing Arabic may bring one closer to the Qur'an, and being close to the Qur'an means being close to God."

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/23/01 at 06:10:31
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]Not only that, I think Islam provides more to women than just a man at every stage of her life to be basically "in charge" of her... and if that is then true, that it does bring some sort of inferiority to women, does it not? [/quote] What I'm trying to convey Br Abdullah is that you and I as brothers have a responsiblity and a duty towards our close female relatives if by Allah's will they find themselves in difficulty. We can't simply say: "Oh well she got married and got divorced and I already have my own wife and kids to look after so why should I look after this niece of mine?" The responsibilty and duty lies with us. Now it may well be that the sister may not need our help and chooses to decline our assistance. This, however, does not negate our responsibilty towards her. To me, far from bringing inferiority, the religion provides a safety net should it be needed. [quote]Maybe, a sister prefers to be married then pursuing her education at a young age... and some may want to stabilise her deen adn pursue her education first. Well, tafadhal... that is her choice... but in every choice or whatever choice... I think we've got to think whether we have actually played our Primary role... and that is whether we are being the vicegerant(khalifah) of Allah on earth as we have promised. Maybe, we should review what being a khalifah of ALlah on this earth means to us.[/quote] As ever intentions are key. If a sister wishes to pursue her education and delay marriage and children, then that is her *choice* and her *action* will be judged according to her *intention* Sometimes I get the feeling we tend to evaluate actions that we see without also investigating the intentions behind those actions. We too often assume we know why people do things without giving a second thought to the underlying reasoning. [quote]....while a degree in Accounting is knowledge that gets you closer to a useless bit of paper called a degree[/quote] Br jehad most people who have that piece of paper find that it brings them closer to a job and with that job Allah [swt] provides for their family. And as stated above, who are we to judge that it is a "useless piece of paper". Isn't it the case that it may actually benefit the Ummah one day? Where do you think the originators of this board learnt their knowledge in order to provide you with the ability to share your views and for us all to learn and benefit from one another? As ever Allah [swt] knows best Wasalaam Br Khalid

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/23/01 at 06:42:44
Anonymous wrote: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Females shouldn't be doctors because they have to scrub up semi  Naked? People with degrees are poor and teaching is a rubbish job?  Illiterate people are the ones who are successful?  Hmmmmmm well does this mean that people who teach the Quran have a  rubbish job? Does this mean people who can't read the Quran and are  illiterate better than people who can?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A woman's minimum awrah is all but face and hands, and some people say only eyes can be shown. So if she is becoming a doctor and scrub up places for men and women are the same. She can not do it, as men will see parts of her she is not allowed to show. Illiterate people are successful if Allah has written it for them in their rizak. Remember rizak min Allah. It may come as a shock to you but I do think people should learn to read. Both men and women. What I am against is completely useless degrees. This is completely useless and this knowledge will most probably never be used. The only reason people do it is some people think people with a useless bit of paper with writing on it called a degree means a person with it is some how superior to some one with out, or at least more intelligent. If some one wants to be a accountant, then a accountancy degree will be useful. But if some one intends to be a stay at home Mum, what is the point of her wasting her time getting that degree? Any way, why do women want to go out and to work? I go out to work and hate it. Allah has given your fathers, brothers, husbands and sons the job of maintaining you, so why waist your time? Literacy and illiteracy is no indication on how good and bad a person is. A lot of my teachers of Quran first learnt Quran from their mothers who were illiterate. A lot of people who can read never read any thing of much use. Literacy is like wealth, having wealth does not mean generosity. Gaining knowledge of Islam is almost always useful, but even this does not mean some one with it is superior, as government scholars have enormous amounts of knowledge but use it to misguide the ignorant. Knowledge is only good if you intend to use it for good, it becomes evil if the purpose of obtaining it is for evil. If it is obtained for the sake of obtaining it, you become like a donkey carrying books.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Barr
07/23/01 at 07:52:05
Assalamu'alaikum :-) Br Jehad, U never cease to amaze me... really.... But just to share my thoughts... and perhaps, other sisters share this as well... hopefully, U'll understand us better, akhi :) InshaAllah :) U know... if we're living in an ideal world, and I'm being serious now... in a REALLY ideal world... I would LOVE to stay at home... probably get married when I'm 19, and be a daiyah to my many many children. Seriously. But I'd still want to have my degree and get an education. Coz, to me, a degree is not just that cheap paper with writings on it. A degree is more than that.... Being in university is about developing oneself as a person as well. It's not about the 3 Ls... Lecture, Library and Loo... but more than that... it's about Life and Living... it's how we approach it, it's how we want to gain from it. True, there are loopholes with the Western Secular education system ( Let's get back to our dis-ideal world => reality). But it is what we do to the opportunities that arise. Akhi... Hassan Al-Banna once said "Tarbiyah is in our hands, and in our hands only". And we either make the best of it, for opportunities are often hard work in disguise... or sit back and follow the flow of the current. I studied Psychology but I'm not a Psychologist (yet, inshaAllah one day). I'm a Family Development Officer... and maybe, I don't apply many psychological theories in my job... but it is the value transmitted and gained while I was at uni that helped me in my job and life generally, right now. I won't say everything has gone to waste. The problem with today is that we have lost the ruh (Spirit) of eduation, of knowledge... we cannot manage to link between the knowledge that Allah has given us about this world and Him. And due to secularism, that soul of knowledge is taken away. And what we have is just the skeletal bits. But the special thing abt Muslims is that they are people who think... and they get closer to ALlah when they ponder over Allah's creations... and everything that they see and learn, they recognise all that to be signs of Allah. And their spirit of enquiry increases and they feel the fulfilment of having knowledge. But the problem gets more real, when we know, that not everyone has the opportunity to go to Islamic universities, learn Arabic, relate things to Allah... and in reality, a lot of people do not even know what Islam truly is, and those who do know.. may not be able to go to those "ideal" Islamic universities. I mean, in reality, some disciplines are better done in a Western university. So, what do we do? Is studying alone to get first class enough for us to build the Muslim shakhsiah (character), to relate back to the society when we go to the working world? Or do we embark on other deeper things in university that will mould that shakhsiah? Do we just cast aside knowledge, say on soft sciences to be a total waste of time.. whereas these knowledge do, expand our analytical skills, and help us think deeper, and helps our understanding of ALlah's awesome creations? Don't U think such experience and knowledge, do help women in bringing up her children?... for not only does she has Islam in her heart, but she is able to relay this beauty of knowledge that belongs to Allah to the future who are a part of her who comes out from her womb? I'm not saying that those mothers who are not educated academically would make bad mothers. I hope noone misinterpret that... As again, my definition of education does not confine to the non-revealed (acquired) academic subjects. But look at our surroundings... what do we want to be, and what can we be? What can we do to make things better? What kind of children do we want to have? How can we be a part of the solution? How do we help those bright young minds who thirst for guidance and truth? And whoever we are, we should never feel any superiority over another person, but as the hadith goes: He who goes out in search of knowledge is in God's path till he returns. [Tirmidhi] Let us also not discount those who are in Allah's path, searching for knowledge. Maybe, others would like to share.... Wallahua'lam :-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Shakira
07/23/01 at 08:34:19
[quote] What I am against is completely useless degrees. This is completely useless and this knowledge will most probably never be used. The only reason people do it is some people think people with a useless bit of paper with writing on it called a degree means a person with it is some how superior to some one with out, or at least more intelligent. [/quote] INCREDIBLE -- ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.  Not for nothing, but did you just climb out of a rock? A degree is not a waste of time or money.  In today's age you need a college degree to do a wide variety of jobs, and in many cases a masters is needed because the college degree is not enough.  Even if some woman gets a degree, and then stays home with her kids while they are little, until they go to school, or until they are out of the house, that degree will benefit her.  And at any given moment it is there for her to use. When getting a degree you learn not only what your major is in, but you learn other things that come useful in life.  One learns different problem solving skills.  How to handle different situations.  How to interact with others from different areas.  Learn things to pass on to your child, and how to help them with their school work. It seems you think that women just need to learn to read and that is that.  There are those mothers who have degrees, and use them to start a business from home, or are able to get a job that allows them to work from home, and those who whose their degree to homeschool their kids. It seems you are afraid of those,--especially women who have gone on and gotten things for themselves, rather then sitting back and wait for a man to provide it for them.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
mango
07/24/01 at 15:00:13
Shakira... Attending a university trains you to think, be disciplined, and responsible.You have deadlines to meet, papers to write, and tests to take.  Even if you dont directly use the knowledge...gooing therough the experience has definitely made you a more responsible adult. In the real world, without a degree you cant do jack. Dont get me wrong.. when i have kids i'm never ever gonna put them in  adaycare. iwanna be there for them. but inshalah i will have a career at the same time. I have the option of not working and letting my husband support me..but that's a choice  that have to make. some women get married at 14 have wonderful children ( while there are some who get married at 14 and their kids turn out be messed up)..while other women need more time to develop. For everyone i believe college is beneficial experience. and a SAFETY NET. wasalam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
jannah
07/24/01 at 15:00:51
hmmm slm, i'm curious... jehad here's my question for u: what exactly do you think the purpose of a woman is?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anik
07/24/01 at 01:03:57
A.A. guys, I think we should try to keep respect for Br. Jehad even if his views disturb you... poor guy! lol I think what he is trying to say (and I am just interpretting here, not necessaril saying the same thing) that NO ONE, brother or sister, should go to university for the sake of getting a degree they will not use... or that wil be of no use to them i think he says rather we should put that time and thought and study into Quran so it is useful, and that extra-occuptaional learning should be kept to a point where it doesn't exceed Islamic learning... hmmm.... Br. Jehad, is this right? But wait, doesn't it say we are to search to increase our Ilm? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/24/01 at 05:15:33
Bismillah and salam, Jannah, I a little disturbed. I feel he is a scape goat a little. I mean if a revert or someone who is interested in Islam, or even kafirs makes mistakes we are more likely to be kind and gentle to them with guidance and help and everything. Yet when a brother or sister does it we are a lot harsher. In fact, we should be more lineant with other muslims. This is not to say that NJ is totaly making mistakes. I think alot of people do understand what he is going on about but i feel it's not said in the best way. I mean yes a degree is alot of time a useless piece of paper. ex. when two muslims have it and the one with lower gpa gets the job, or even worse if somene who doesn't have it gets the job because it is who you know nowadays. OR How corrupt the educational system itself is. How they brainwash people to fit and produce and keep the system and status quo instead of giving real learning tools. I mean when Hamza Yusuf says it, I bet every person will praise his analytical skills. Alot of the real learning nowadays happens outside of the lectures. And there is much validity in my own opinion in self-teaching. And once again, the emphasis for me ,is the priorities of learning your deen, quran, specilizing and going deep in at least one thing before you go into worldly knowledge. Those can teach you all the things people mentioned above such as responsibility, skills, etc. Then you begin to prioritize according to situation, what has less harm and haram, which comes more naturaly after you have entrenched yorself in deen, which is the hikma why our religion asks to seek it first. This seems to me to be the best islamic course unless it is a true neccasity. I was really really hoping someone female would address Abdullah's comments as well. I don't think the implication of this is that women are not capable of being responsible for themselves. It means a woman is precious and should not have to hit the streets and gangs to help her survive as we see commenly in non-muslim countries. the brother explained one aspect of it nicely, but as well, in islam it is a community. Islam DOES provide "more to women than just a man at every stage of her life to be basically "in charge" of her...", but it does not exclude having a man figure in our lives, this is not something to be ashamed of. it sounds like you are saying finance is a way to control someone? Doesn't it depend on intention and duties and rights? If it were true that their providing means they are in charge of her and that she is like a child then..would you say then that islam provides men with a woman who is in charge of him growing up abnis his mother and then his wife decides everything in the house, Does this make him inferior, or it means he is incapable of making decisions for himself and house, or that he does not ever do it? This "man at every stage of her life" is the best blessing from Allah. It gives us so much freedom (more money, time, energy,etc) to pursue meaningful things to us.  To me that is in fact something that means we are respected and special not inferior.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/24/01 at 06:15:17
Asalaamu Alaikum [quote] And there is much validity in my own opinion in self-teaching. [/quote] I couldn't disagree more with the above. If you look at the traditions of how Islam was passed down over successive generations, you will find that true knowledge is only obtained from benefiting from a teacher with knowledge. Indeed our Prophet [saw] was sent to teach us the Qu'ran but the Book was not simply given without a teacher there to explain it. There may be some benefit in self teaching but in no way can it compare to having being taught and explained by a qualified and knowledgeable teacher. Wasalaam Br Khalid PS As for Br jehad he has been gently reminded numerous times by many members of this board about his *manner* and *mode* of address.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
bhaloo
07/24/01 at 08:29:15
slm I remember in my senior year in college, the professor for one of the advanced engineering courses said, that 95% of what you learn in college you won't use at all.  And you know something, he was absolutely right.  The ONLY reason I went to college was to get a piece of paper so I could get a great job.  Most of the classes served no benifit at all, I just did it to get the paper.  I wished that the classes went into more detail into particular subjects and were more practical for the work necessary to succedd in industry. I would rather have spent those years studying fiqh or some of the other Islamic sciences instead of doing that.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/24/01 at 10:02:59
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) For those of you familiar with Economic Theory, there is a famous paper written by Professor Ackerloff titled "The Market for Lemons" To cut a long story short it puts forward the idea that Education is merely a *signal* to prospective employers as to the ability and productivity of each prospective employee. Thus employers make initial decisions to hire people on the basis of the level of education they have attained ( be it high school, college, Masters, PhD etc etc) Thus education is only a *means to an end*. The overwhelming majority of graduates worldwide never ever use their education in their ultimate profession. As a lighthearted example, how many of us have even used Trig in our lives?  I would assume, however, that nearly all of us have studied it as part of math. Coming back to Islam then, does that mean that all secular and worldly knowledge is a waste if its only purpose is to make it easier for us to get a job? On the face of it, and when compared to the superiority of Islamic knowledge, one could come to the conclusion that it is indeed a waste. But to me there is one important thing to bear in mind. For us, as Muslims, education is NOT a *means to an end* as proposed by the theory. Everything that we are blessed with comes from our Lord and hence the education we have obtained will be a source of questioning for us. Just as the scholar will be asked what he did with his knowledge, those who have obtained their "pieces of paper" will be asked what they did with theirs. At the end of the day *all* knowledge comes from Allah [swt] and how we use and act upon that knowledge is what ultimately counts. Its your *choice* as to whether you acquire Islamic knowledge, worldly knowledge or both. But its your *duty* to use that knowledge in a beneficial and rewarding way. Allah [swt] knows best Wasalaam Br Khalid

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/24/01 at 09:34:03
slm Sister Barr, you mentioned what you gained from a degree, but seriously, aren't there easier less time consuming ways of gaining that? A lot of people with out degrees have obtained the skills you mentioned, by doing what it takes to obtain them. Shakrah: may be you will be surprised to find out that many people who have never been to university have the skills that you obtained from being in university. Any literate person leading an active life can generally obtain general skills that are obtained from all degrees. Mango: The skills you said are obtained by studying a degree, are held by people in general. Any one who goes to work, even menial jobs develops such skills. Talking from the real world, I know loads of people who have degree's and are unemployed. A degree is no guaranty of a job, because it is no guaranty that the person with that paper with degree written on it is able to do that job. What employers really want is experience. Almost all the people I know with degrees regret doing it. Because they did get in to a profession job with it, but they have colleges working at the same level as them who have no degree. Most degrees are generally too general to work in a particular job, so employers need to train up people who start working for them. If you have worked in that profession before you have the ability to do it, so experience is a lot more important to employers then bits of paper. Jannah: You said:" I'm curious... jehad here's my question for u: what exactly do you think the purpose of a woman is?" Tough question; need to think about it. Ok here goes: The purpose of men and women, human and jinn is to worship Allah. I have said before, more then once that marriage is recommended not farrad. So I think I have made it clear that the role of a women is not just being wife. When it comes to family life, the women's role is as a mother and a wife not a provider. It is the man's role to be the breadwinner. If some one intends to join family life and is trying to prepare for it, I would expect that men will prepare to gain what they need to be a breadwinner before marriage and a woman will gain what it takes to fulfil her role as a mother and a wife. I mean, a lot of brothers I speak to get kind of scared that the wife they marry might be a expert in English and Welsh law, but doesn't know what end of the baby the nappy fits on to. You may think it is funny, but a lot of brothers do feel this way. The west has tried to change women's roles to increase the work force there by decreasing wages. At first it seemed to have worked, but now they are paying the price, as a lot of European countries now have reverse growth in population. Meaning there aren't enough young people to replace and provide for the retired. I don't understand why people consider being a housewife and a mother so demeaning and anti Women. Most of our mothers were housewives who married young, do we regard them as oppressed ignorant primitive people? Who do we regard as in a better state. The young bride back home, who is still young when her kids get married, or the western carrier women, who busies her self serving her employer and gets home still having all the housework to do. A lot of people seem to like parent bashing saying all the traditions of our ex-countries that disagrees with present western culture is primitive and has no connection with Islam and should be dumped. But let's look at it in an open mind and decide for our selves what is really better. I don't consider any of my comments as anti women, I consider the comments against my comments as anti women. Because I feel I am praising most women, cause most women aren't western carrier women. Most women are housewives that have married young. I don't think they regard them selves as being oppressed or ignorant baby making machines. I feel the western feminists are the most anti women people I can think of, as they demean women's roles, and look up to men's roles and demand that women throw away their femininity and become like men in every way they can. I don't think most women see the role western feminists hope for them as liberating? What I think is that people who have adopted the western way of thinking, attacking the ways of the majority of the world live by, have one serious inferiority complex if they are Muslim, or some serious ego problems, if they are capitalists, feminists or communists.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
amatullah
07/24/01 at 10:34:26
Bismillah and salam, Forgive me for misusing words. I meant there is alot of validity in learning by yourself not for the degree like learning in non-academia setting type thing. I do believe we need others to learn. Even if we learn something alone we should discuss it and recite it, etc with others to make sure we are not learning false.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
NewJehad
07/24/01 at 10:55:52
I agree with amutllah on this. learning stuff like computer skills and programming is often best done on your own. teachers do help, when you need stuff marked or have questions. but practice is very important. Most of the people I know who are working in computing are self-tort. they thort them selves then sat a exam if they needed proof of their abilities, others went strait in to employment.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
jannah
07/24/01 at 11:42:35
[slm] arshad i think we discussed this before..:) in education circles there's been debate for a long time over whether or not schools should move towards the direction of being industry oriented or whether education should be general for "education's" sake.   isn't one good thing about the US that almost everyone has at least the basics of education...this makes a good populace.. an "educated englightened cultured" populace...they understand the basics of economics, writers, theories, mathamatics. but what if we only had vocational schools... when ur 18 u go into a place where u only learn physics nothing else... we become such limited people. do you want your kid to never learn about history, about books, about science..the world... just go into their field and that's it? there's too much ignorance in the world already... even if u think about some of the greatest muslim scientists they were never just one thing.. they studied everything from astronomy to alchemy to mathamatics...and that's what helped them make such revolutionary changes and discoveries in the world. and they started first with memorizing the Quran and hadith. one of the biggest complaints of those for equal education for everyone is that in certain poor school districts the kids get "vocational" type instruction...whereas other students in richer districts get "life skills training"...they learn how to communicate, how to argue, how to get what you want... these kids end up being the movers and shakers of the world... the "vocational" kids end up getting jobs in some factory and are so limited they wouldn't even know what they could do if they wanted to. so while jehad's point is true u can learn alot of things on your own, i'd still argue that it's easier, quicker and u retain more if u learn it in a structured way from a teacher. second as for brkhalid's point that as Mark Twain said "don't let school get in the way of your education.", i think we really underestimate what school does for us. true we don't use those exact trig algorithms or the basic language we learned but the learning process itself and principles we learned help us alot later on. even though u learn pascal...later on when ur trying to learn another programming language, or logic or trying to think something out that knowledge you learned really helps you out. those trig problems u did at school? u may never use them...but knowing that the world works in mathamatic equations, knowing how to apply a formula or theorem, how to create one...that's impt. u learn skills..u learn leadership.. u learn how to think and interact...can u learn that on your own without going to school??? if ur lucky??... i can't really understand why muslims keep going backwards...what are we going to do next sit in our houses and expect education to come to us like revelation from the sky?? while the rest of the world zooms ahead of us in education and technology using it for filth and oppression throughout the world, the muslims become the most ignorant, most traumatized, most uneducated illiterate population in the world??? why can't we be like real muslims and take what is good from what we learn and use our islamic perspective and make our own discoveries and theories. instead we debate about whether or not a woman should be "educated" what use will it be to raising children??? pathetic..............

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Asim
07/24/01 at 14:10:50
Assalaamu alaikum, [quote]I would rather have spent those years studying fiqh or some of the other Islamic sciences instead of doing that. [/quote] Yeah, me too, my graduate schooling seems like a big waste of time. In Islam, education and gaining knowledge is a life long process. It shouldn't be restricted to the ages of 5-25. However, the world today forces us to conform to that mold. Either you are at school or you work because each takes up so much time and energy. And if you are not working then you cannot fulfill some of your Islamic duties like getting married. In an Islamic society education should be free for starters. But we don't live in an Islamic society, so what do we do? For one thing, we shouldn't blindly follow their model and try our best to reduce the harm from it. How? I don't know, each person's situation is different, but we should have a clear intention at all times. Gaining wordly and Islamic knowledge are both benefitial. Sometimes it becomes a complicated issue of priorities as to what one should do first or emphasize. Also, as Jannah mentioned, there is no substitute for formal education and learning from a teacher. Self learning is limited in scope. Formal learning is also tarbiyyah, a shaping of character. Western education instills into us some of their unIslamic ideologies. And often times we are not aware of it. Again, we have to be very careful about what we read, hear, and see. Having a solid Islamic knowledge before one ventures into the wordly knowledge is ideal but often not feasible in todays world. One of the things that I try to do is always take what I read at face value without assuming it to be true/good/applicable in any way. Always put a question mark on these theories and when relating them give a reference and say that that reference mentions this but I am not sure. Because it is essential that we don't internalize these ideologies that don't conform to Islamic concepts. Wasalaam. PS. Modified again, sorry! I should seriously always write significant posts on a word processor before I post! Just too many mistakes :)

Outsult
AbuKhaled
07/24/01 at 14:16:52
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem Dear Brothers & Sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. For all those who have insulted Brother NewJehad as a result of taking some affront from certain of his views in this thread, please note one thing. He has never retaliated to any of those disrespectful comments in the same unjustified vein. He has not addressed a single one, nor taken issue with anyone for saying such inexcusable things about him. We are in some serious need of tawba, and apology, for this blatant transgression of adab towards *our* Brother. Fair enough, some of you find some of his views astonishing. But is that a valid pretext to insult him by personalising the discussion and focussing on him? I only hope he has the magnanimity to forgive those who’ve overstepped the line with him. Whatever his views, he never insults any of you by taking sideswipes at you, or little off-the-cuff comments about you. I may not agree with some of what he says, but I don’t think that is excuse to behave in such an appalling manner towards him. I have followed this thread, and noticed how those who’ve taken a poke at him with some remark, have then been replied to by him, yet in that reply he has only focussed on the point(s) you made, and not the dig that was directed towards him. That is something commendable that should be taken from. Not for nothing do we have adab in this Deen. If we cannot maintain it in the midst of a discussion, then better to desist and hold onto that adab, rather than pursue your points. That will equip you better in the long run for your akhira, insha’Allah. That is not to say that some of what has been said by our dear Brother should go unchallenged/unquestioned, but that – ya’ani – there is a way. Such an excellent thread with so much potential. Don’t let it be tarred by unnecessary remarks about a particular contributor, who after all is not writing out of malice or a deliberate desire to provoke controversy. That much is obvious. This is a great opportunity to educate one another about such a far-reaching topic, and to be fair, there have been some very thought-provoking posts so far, masha'Allah. I had written a lengthy post for inclusion too, last week, but then decided not to post it. Maybe I will, but then again… May Allah ta’ala keep safe the believers from the hurtful words of others amidst their ranks, Abu Khaled

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
bhaloo
07/24/01 at 16:55:24
slm Just yesterday I was thinking about the very same concerns that Abu Khaled brought up.  There shouldn't be any personal insults of any person on here, even if you disagree with their view and the person has used poor manners, that gives no one any right to insult him/her.  At the same time also, people shouldn't insult different groups of people either, (making generalisations).  I know I have gone ahead and removed posts that fit the latter category.  If someone is offended by something said, let one of the moderators/admins know and we will take care of it, insha'Allah. Ok, back to the topic at hand.  I'm surprised Kashif, Arsalan, Bro Hanif, Nazia, Saleema, and Mona haven't said anything yet on this? ??? I was thinking about the Pascal programmer Jannah gave as an example and the programmers that Jehad gave as well that learned on their own and had no degree.  I know growing up the best programmers I knew were 12 to 15 year old hackers, not some college graduate.  The kids had way more skill and discovered all these cool features on their own.  When we were hiring people for a networking job here, the most knowledgable people were those without degrees, and the degreed people usually didn't know anything, but we had to hire the degreed people because that was company policy.  Definitely computer programming is something that is better to learn on your own and do your own investigating.   The electrical engineering school I went to took the top 1% of students (GPA wise) from high school only, and the professors told us that in a class of 100 students, only 15 people will get As, the rest will get Bs, Cs, Ds, and Fs (based on a bell curve).  There would be no exception.  They also told us that 1 out of 3 of you will graduate, the rest will either fail or transfer to another department.  Every test I took ALWAYS had material that was never discussed or covered in class, the purpose was to see if anyone did any extra reading or research and helped to ensure that no one ever got a perfect score on an exam.  I remember in one class I got 55 out of 100 on one exam and was so happy, because the class average was 30. I think I have gone off on a tangent, sorry. How much general knowledge does one really need?  In my opinion I thought there was just too much in college and it wasn't necessary and high school was enough for me. ;)  I don't mind if I am not considered part of the "educated englightened cultured", as long as I'm striving to icrease my Islamic knowledge and learn more about the deen that's good enough for me.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/24/01 at 17:11:17
Assalamu alikum BUT Br Jehad said he thinks its better if both men and women were iliterate. I just can't comprehend how illiterate people are able to read the Quraan? Br Jehad is entitiled to his opinions but they should correspond to today's society. If we were living centuries ago where survival meant the men going out to work by hunting for our food, then fine I'd say as a woman i'd be happy to stay at home :) But life isnt like that anymore. My father oneday came home and said to my mum 'where is my dinner' (she hadnt cooked it). Then he said I want my dinner, don't you know your job is just to cook and clean for me an nothing more?" My mum was so hurt and depressed by this and she said she had no choice but to carry on and 'obey' my father because she has no education, no where to go, and she lives in mysery because of the attitudes my father and people like Br Jehad have about women. I'm not having a go at you Br Jehad, but just think about how your views will affect your wife.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
AbdulBasir
07/24/01 at 18:56:14
[slm] Ok, I know this is continuing on the off-tangent discussion in this thread,  but we should try to avoid thinking to ourselves that the experience in general education was a waste of time. I do believe that many of the courses I took in high school/college had no bearing on my future profession. But at the same time I'll remember something specific from school and realize that there was benefit to it, even though I may not realize it most of the time. For example, the other day I was looking through someone’s book about differential equations. I took calculus and differential equations in high school and was really good at it. My teacher even suggested that I become a mathematician, but I committed myself to something else as I went on to college. Nowadays I couldn’t even do a moderately complex integration and couldn’t even begin to work on a differential equation. It’s like a different language now. It doesn’t bug me that diff eq has nothing to do with my profession, but it bugs me that I forgot that knowledge which I once had. Was it a waste? I don’t necessarily think so. Education is not a means to a certain specific end but a dynamic process which shapes your consciousness and influences how you think in whatever you do (which of course by itself demonstrates the need for Islamic education). But, can I say that my remote experiences with calculus and differential equations do not in any way shape my analytical skills and viewpoints on certain problems today? No I can’t, I just can’t realize it if they do because whatever I learned then became imbedded subconsciously so that I can’t appreciate it anymore. In high school I hated a lot of the books they made us read, but can I say that the study of Western fiction hasn’t been any benefit? No I can’t, because the benefit may be something which I can’t perceive now that I’m so for removed from that study. It has been suggested that formal education is a waste because one can learn what they need to know without it. And that can be true, without doubt. But one can say that it can never hurt, and can only help you. Only education in things that are prohibited, i.e sorcery, are a waste (and indeed haraam). But any other education can never be a waste, even if we think it to be so, particularly if we go about it with an Islamic frame of mind as Asim said. I still think a lot of the stuff I have studied in the past (and forgotten) are a waste, and I love to complain about it these days :) but again, they may have had a benefit which I cannot perceive, and Allah knows. And if one has had a pure intention in seeking education to please Allah and serve him, than the benefit of that “general education” will be pure and will facilitate that very journey towards pleasing Allah. And that surely is not a waste. Yeah, maybe wishful thinking on my part :) And Allah knows best.. [slm]

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/24/01 at 19:02:20
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]Ok, I know this is continuing on the off-tangent discussion in this thread[/quote] Maybe we can cut the thread in half and call it the "Is there a right level of education to have?" thread ;)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/24/01 at 21:06:13
[slm] Bhaloo, I'm reading but not writing in this thread!  :) I will get myself in trouble, be called a femenist and what not. In fact, I am even contemplating staying out of the ummah center!  :) Which is very hard to do....   :( [wlm] Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/24/01 at 23:13:50
even if u think about some of the greatest muslim scientists they were never just one thing.. they studied everything from astronomy to alchemy to mathamatics...and that's what helped them make such revolutionary changes and discoveries in the world. and they started first with memorizing the Quran and hadith. I don't think many people would disagree with that Jannah, but only when it's the women who want to educate themselves like that. What a typical attitude. It's not education that is bad, it's the way we go about it that is bad. Me-- I love to study. I love going to college. I wish I would *devour* books. I wish I could gain all the knowledg in the world and put it to good use for others, for the Ummah. I don't take useless calsses. I learned how to use the Internet, so now I can email people about Islamic events and post it on different websites. I bought a computer after taking that class in high school. I am glad I took journalism because that is one thing I'm good at and I hope to reach the masses one day through my writings. I'm glad I took so many English classes because I can now relate to a non Muslim whose major is English and we can find a common ground to discuss Islam from. How? The book "Dante's Inferno," and countless other things. I loved taking Biology because it taught me some basic things about the way that Science is veiwed by non Muslims and taught me some scientific facts and then some supposedly scientific 'facts.' Then I went and checked out some books dealing with Science written by Muslims and got the Muslim perspective. Now I give my science professros a hard time by challenging what they teach in the class. I love taking Philosophy classes because I can now argue with the athiest friends that I have using thier own methods to show them that God does exist and that Islam is the Truth. And those missionaires that ring the door bell in the morning to disturb my sleep. I will love to take some biblical classes in the future because reading the Bible on my own is not sufficient for my understand of Christianity and how to approach the Christians best. Meanwhile I have stacked my book shelf with the books by Muslim authors who have writting on Christianity. I would love to take more computer classes so that I can fix my own computer and don't have to call my brother everytime there is a little glitch! I love taking history classes because I can appreciate where different people come from and then compare it with what Muslim historians have said and try to distinguish truth from myths and distortions. I can go on and on! Inshallah I plan on using my knowledge for doing Dawah where the Christian Missionaries are doing it. I plan on setting up camp right next to theirs! I plan on passing this knowledge to my children. So instead of using that piece of paper for finding a good job, use it for a higher purpose in mind! To some people who use it for that purpose only then it will seem meaningless, do it for the sake of Allah and then inshallah it won't be meaningless. :) Ok peeps gotta jet! And moderators please keep and eye on my forum cuz I won't be around much for a while. ps-- ignore grammer and spelling please.  :) in a hurry. [wlm] Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Asim
07/24/01 at 23:46:03
[quote]I had written a lengthy post for inclusion too, last week[/quote] Br. Abu Khaled, please post it! All of us will benefit from it  inshaAllah. Wasalaamu alaikum.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anik
07/25/01 at 00:02:42
[quote] In fact, I am even contemplating staying out of the ummah center!  :) Which is very hard to do....   :( [/quote] A.A. i totally hear your concerns sister... I was thinking along the same lines as myself, when I realized we have to try to express our views without worrying that people will label us... of course, heated debate is okay until it gets personal or just plain rude... but also with stuff like commenting on specific people, shouldn't the moderators be wiping that stuff out before we have a chance to complain? I am not saying the moderators are not doing their jobs (please don't take it like that!), but I assume that some moderators like to let others say what they have to, even if the comments are OTT, kind of like diluting the censors to give a feel of the atmosphere... I would guess that's why, otherwise why should offensive comments that are not necessary in the argument be kept? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
jannah
07/25/01 at 00:33:40
[slm] well we try our best but like u said we don't want to censor everything nazi like...we'd like to let ppl say what they think or feel...but it's true one of the rules of the constitution is not to insult anyone personally so if anyone feels anything is doing that please let me or the other moderators know privately. sometimes just posting in general that ppl are violating the rules doesn't tell us what the problem is or who is offended by what??

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Mehak
07/25/01 at 04:17:10
[slm], [quote] Inshallah I plan on using my knowledge for doing Dawah where the Christian Missionaries are doing it. I plan on setting up camp right next to theirs! [/quote] sis Saleema,count me in when u decide to put an Islamic camp right next to a missionaries' :). [wslm]

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
BrKhalid
07/25/01 at 04:38:49
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]sometimes just posting in general that ppl are violating the rules doesn't tell us what the problem is or who is offended by what?? [/quote] Indeed. Be specific and either let the person know privately that you've been offended or the admins. [quote]Br. Abu Khaled, please post it! All of us will benefit from it  inshaAllah.[/quote] I'd second that ;-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/25/01 at 04:49:07
I've been thinking more about what Br. Jehad has been saying. At first when I read his comments I felt mad and undermined. But then I thought perhps Br Jehad is saying something we have all forgotten. We have become so encased in the way society is. Esp. in the west. People feel they have to get an education, they have to get a house, they have to get a car etc. These desires are making us forget our creator Allah. Isn't worshiping Allah more rewarding then getting that degree certificate? But the question is how do we survive and balance our life in this modern day society by also not forgetting that worshiping Allah is more important than anything else? Sorry Br Jehad for any ill feelings. p.s. Br Jehad mentioned he doesnt like his job. What do you do?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
eleanor
07/25/01 at 09:36:02
slm very interesting, how this thread has developed. I have a few comments about different things that I'd like to make. Firstly, as regards Brother Jehad..I can see both sides of the argument. When I first read his posts (months ago), they got me really hot and bothered and I replied very firiley to them. He never got insulted, or even made remark on some of the things I said. He just dealt with the point in hand. Therefore I advise anyone to read his posts calmly and see what he is saying and why he is saying it and to think carefully before battering off a reply. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Secondly, I think a degree is a very useful piece of paper. I didn't finish college, or get my degree. I completed two years out of three, but what I learned in those two years is of no interest to prospective employers. Thirdly, I think Sr.Saleema gave some excellent reasons to get an education, no more to be said. Fourthly, when Insha Allah I have children and they are big enough to lead their own lives, wouldn't it be nice to have something to do? To go to work, in a profession that you know about and feel comfortable in? Not to sit at home staring at the four walls all day? And fifthly, to bring the discussion full circle: I think your body lets you know when the right age is to have a baby. I want a baby right now! I just know it. That I'm ready, that my husband is ready, even though a year ago the idea horrified me and financially nothing much has changed since then . So,,umm..mid twenties? wasalaam eleanor

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
mango
07/25/01 at 13:01:13
Assalamu Alaikum, Sr. Eleanor is right. Your body just signals to you when you're ready to carry a baby. It's something women can just tell. You just know.  I'm 19 years old and have been married for a year. I love kids. Every time i see a little child, my heart melts. My eyes look deep into the gorgeous pupils of their eyes, and I feel this bond. I'm obsessed with kids, but I dont think that I'm ready to be a mother (i don't think i'm responsible enough, that is, i'd like to develop more before I become a mother). A lot of times the thought of losing the "free time to myself" comes to mind; i wont be able to do all the things that i do now if i have children. My husand and I would like to spend some time traveling abroad too. We're both students, so i'd definitely like to wait until i'm done with school. I would just like to hear from sisters who have had children while they were still in school or even those who aren't students and have little kids. Insha'allah one day, I'll have children of my own. Subhanallah, another living human in the world (the thought of it just moves me). I just feel so blessed when i see the beautiful relationship of a mother to a child. That really moves me to feel more love towards my own mother. Maybe I'm idealizing this because I'e never had children of my own. I'd just like to hear from experienced sisters. wasalam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Anonymous
07/25/01 at 14:38:13
Maybe this sounds really sad and pathetic but as soon as I meet the right brother and marry and fall madly in love with him I will want to have kids straight away!! If I love my hubby very much I can't think of anything better than producing kids which are just like him :) And the one thing than I can give him that would be so special and a sign of my love to him would be his first child :) If I didn't love my hubby and it was an arranged marriage I think I'd wait a few years before having kids ;)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?
Saleema
07/25/01 at 14:52:11
These desires are making us forget our creator Allah. Isn't worshiping Allah more rewarding then getting that degree certificate? Why can't we do both? I would like to have my cake and eat it too inshallah. And I will with the help of Alllah!  :) Sister Mehak--- cool. :) we are partners. i am locking this thread. please move the discussion to another thread. and abu khaled-- we all want to read what you wrote! [wlm] Saleema
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