Rules of Engagment

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Rules of Engagment
Anik
07/18/01 at 20:24:33
A.A.

I was under the impression that engagement did not occur in Islam... apparently it does. Can someone enlighten me as to if yes/no, what happens to complete it, all the details please.

And other questions like who's to be present, how to dress, etc. asalaamu alikum. abdullah,.
NS
Re: Rules of Engagment
bhaloo
07/18/01 at 21:10:04
slm

This question was asked of Dr. Siddiqi (ISNA's president) and he then gave a response.


Q 1. My question is regarding engagements that happen in Indo/Pak communities. Boy or a girl may be engaged for 1 or 2 years before they get married. During the period after engagement and before marriage, both are allowed to talk and communicate in privacy. They may write letters or talk on the phone. My question is that how much privacy can be allowed after engagement and where should the line be drawn. Also some of my friends say that engagements are Islamically not correct. Please advise. (Abdul Mujeeb Samad)


A 1. According to the Shari'ah, engagement is permissible. In Islamic terminology it is called "Khitbah" which literally means "seeking someone for marriage." Khitbah is mentioned in the Qur'an (al-Baqarah 2:235) and in a number of Ahadith. According to the Shari'ah, there is no fixed time for engagement. It could be a very short time or a long time, depending on the situation and local customs. It is allowed for a man and woman to see each other for the purpose of engagement. They can also find out more about each other through their relatives and mutual friends. However, it is haram for the engaged couples to be alone with each other. Engagement is not marriage and until nikah is performed they are not halal to each other. Engaged people can talk to each other on telephone. They can also write to each other and they can meet in the presence of other adult relatives. In their letters and phone conversations they should observe Haya' (modesty and decency).

;------------------------------------------------

As to what to wear to such a function, I would think that one should wear something nice as its an important event for the couple in their lives.

Re: Rules of Engagment
Saleema
07/18/01 at 21:16:07
As to what to wear to such a function, I would think that one should wear something nice as its an important event for the couple in their lives.

Wow... I am so impressed by bhaloo's advise! :D
Come on man! You call that advise? :) "something nice.."

Well, I think that guys look nice in turbans. :)

[wlm]
Saleema
Re: Rules of Engagment
imamaslam
07/18/01 at 23:22:32
Asssalamu-alaiykum
In reply to the question how does one go about being engaged is very simple. The respective families should have mutual understanding of how long before the wedding and mutual agreement of bride and groom to be to have agreed to this marriage.
2. They are allowed only one glance according to shariah and all other types of conversations phone and letters are not permissable because they are not halaal for each other yet.
It is a common belief that after they are engaged it is alright for the couple to be to talk go out in each others company but it is haraam for they have not been sealed in the sacred nikah bond and shaitaan is always looking for an opportunity. Allah-humma hafizna min shurorishaytaan. Also according to some ulemas ruling a womans voice is also considered purdah[hijaab].
3. It is also mentioned that an anouncement should be made in a public gathering {masjid or Islamic gathering that the marriage ceremony has been performed just in case if people see the bride and groom together they do not have evil thoughts about them{ this is after the nikah is done]
4. To attire in islamic clothes in simplicity is best for it brings out the radiance and noor in ones charachter.
Just thought I would put my two cents worth Wasalaam
Re: Rules of Engagment
Kashif
07/19/01 at 03:28:36
assalaamu alaikum
[quote]2. They are allowed only one glance according to shariah[/quote]
I found the following from Salim Morgan's lessons on the fiqh of marriage:

Looking at a Prospective Spouse
As we have seen, the Prophet encouraged men considering marriage to a particular woman to get a look at her.  He (sas) said in another hadith:

"Idhaa khataba ahadukum al-mar'ata fa'in istataa'a an yandhura minha ilaa ma yad'oohu ilaa nikaahihaa falyaf'al."
"If one of you proposes to a woman and if he is able to look at of her that which motivates him to marry her, let him do so."  Abu Daud & others (hassan)

Note that this hadith does not abrogate the limits of what a woman may expose to non-mahaarim.  She must continue to be well covered except for her face and hands in front of all of them and the prospective husband, even if he has proposed, is no exception to this.  Even such a one is still only permitted to see what anyone else is permitted to see.  The difference is that he is allowed to take a good look - if it were not for the proposal of marriage, both would be required to avert their eyes after the first glance.  As the Prophet (sas) said to Ali about the look at a non-mahram woman:  "The first is for you, the second is against you."

Also, it is clear that the purpose of this look is very specific:  to help one determine whether or not they would like to marry that person.  Once that has been determined and the decision has been made, it is no longer permissible for them to look at each other.  If a man and a woman decide that they want to marry each other, this does not make it allowed for them to continue to see each other.  Just the opposite, since the decision has been made there is no longer any need for them to see each other and they are no longer allowed to do so.  This is because until the moment the offer and acceptance of the marriage have been pronounced, there is no relationship of any kind between them and all of the laws regarding strange men and women still apply to them.

There are a number of important points which pertain to this issue:

- Some scholars say that this look is sunnah (i.e., recommended) while others say that it is simply permissible.  The hadith would seem to favor the first point of view.
- It can only be done if the person actually intends marriage to the person AND there is a real possibility of it taking place.  Otherwise, such a look remains forbidden.
- It cannot take place in private.  In other words, it is not allowed for a man and a woman who are not married - even if they are "engaged" - to be alone together.
- The look can occur more than once - if and only if the objective has not been accomplished.

There are several opinions about how much of the woman is lawful to be seen in this context as follows: He can see what anyone else can see i.e., he can look at her when she is dressed in the proper outdoor dress of a Muslim woman.  This is the mainstream opinion, the safest one and the one which agrees with all of the evidence.

One opinion among the Hanbali school of thought which says that he can see her in normal indoor (around only her family) dress which would include the exposing of her neck, arms, lower legs, etc.

One bizarre and off-the-wall opinion from the Dhahiri (literalist) school of thought which says that he may view her entire body.  Although they have linguistic arguments to extract this from the hadith, this practice is completely unfounded since it contradicts many verses of Qur'an and other hadith and is not supported by any known practice of the Companions or the first few generations.

The scholars recommend that this look take place when one has intended a proposal but the actual proposal has occurred.  Although the apparent of the hadith seems to indicate otherwise, this is regarded as better in order to avoid hurting the woman's feelings if the man changes his mind after seeing her.

The majority of scholars say that her foreknowledge or permission is not needed - especially since he is merely seeing her in public and in a way that anyone else can see her.  The Maliki school of thought says that it is disliked to look at her when she is unaware since evil men may use this as an excuse to look at women all the time and when told to stop would say "We are thinking of proposing to one of them."

Women Looking at a Prospective Husband
The woman also has a right to look at her prospective husband.  Many scholars have stated that "The women like the same things we like."  Some have even said that it is MORE important for the woman to see the man.  This is because the man holds the right of instant and unconditional divorce in case he is displeased with his wife.  It is not so easy for the woman to get out of a marriage and so she must have priority in this issue.
NS
Re: Rules of Engagment
Arsalan
07/19/01 at 03:50:35
[slm]
[quote]She must continue to be well covered except for her face and hands in front of all of them and the prospective husband, even if he has proposed, is no exception to this.  Even such a one is still only permitted to see what anyone else is permitted to see.  [/quote]Hmm.

*Suppose* I am among the people who follow the opinion that niqaab is obligatory for women.  (I'm not!)

In this case, how can you convince me, from authentic ahaadith, that I am (only) allowed to look at the face and the hands of the woman to whom I am about to propose.  If the statement of Salim Morgan "even such a one is still only permitted to see what anyone else is permitted to see" is applied in my case, I should not be allowed to see anything when I propose except the eyes!  Because I, being a proponent of niqaab, am usually not "permitted to see" anything except the eye.

To put it another way, how do you know that we can look at the face and hands only?  Why not just the eyes?  Why not just the face?  Why not the hair too?  What is the evidence for limiting it to the face and hands, not more and not less??
Dude, I think you spelt "advise" wrong
bhaloo
07/19/01 at 14:37:05
slm

[quote]As to what to wear to such a function, I would think that one should wear something nice as its an important event for the couple in their lives.

Wow... I am so impressed by bhaloo's advise! :D
Come on man! You call that advise? :) "something nice.."

Well, I think that guys look nice in turbans. :)
[/quote]

By nice I meant not t-shirt and jeans, which is typical California attire. :)
Re: Rules of Engagment
amatullah
07/19/01 at 15:12:18
Bismillah and salam,

First I would like to say it is good brother to succ things out before you go to ask for a girls hand. I mean if you know an older lady, first find out if the girl is interested in marriage, etc. If you get hints that it is ok, then tawakal 3ala Allah and talk to her wali, a guardian if she has one, about when you can visit to discuss an important matter. Or if she has none but is interested the lady said then you ask others like the lady and her husband and maybe your friend to be present when you go to talk to her. I hope this is not confusing. It is not obligatory or anything. I just have seen it save face before.

I am under the impression that it is permisseble for the two to sit and talk together as long as there is the parents aroud to see if they are compatible. In this sitting they can look at each other. I was also under the impression that she can show him her zeeena since they intend marriage. If they like each others minds and looks, they have to pretty much get the contract done asap and announce it to people, they don't have to move in or consumate right away. this period can be their engagement, they are hence allowed to go looking for furniture and other necssaries together. After they move in they have a waleema insha'Allah.

Please listen to some audio lectures in islamway.com you go to English, then to audio lectures and lessons. Then to shaikh dawud adib who has one called engagement for marriage. They also talk about engagement in other lectures..i think in the one about the teenages.

In these lectures it explains who should be there, like her wali, the number of witnesses, etc. My advice when you guys meet, remember to start with the dua, she will respect you for that. And be honest about what you look for in a person and about who you are. And ask her to do istikhara as well.

Personaly I think you go in a white robe is nice, some people wear the abaya on top of it masha'Allah.
Re: Rules of Engagment
Kashif
07/19/01 at 18:23:40
[quote]To put it another way, how do you know that we can look at the face and hands only?  Why not just the eyes?  Why not just the face?  Why not the hair too?  What is the evidence for limiting it to the face and hands, not more and not less??[/quote]

assalaamu alaikum
As the article states there is a difference of opinion on the issue.

The first opinion is based on the ayah: "They should not expose their beauty except what is apparent thereof." [24:31] referring to the hijaab : that a prospective man can't see the woman in anything other than what she would wear in the street. The other two opinions are cited in my earlier posting and the hadith to back those up are contained therein.

However, i would find it odd if a niqaabi sister didn't uncover her face during the marriage interviewing process... i dunno, how does it work?

Kashif
Wa Salaam
Re: Rules of Engagment
bhaloo
07/19/01 at 18:32:59
slm

I know that Salim Morgan does not consider face and hands of a woman to be awrah and the issue came up in a discussion when someone complained that in one country they were forcing women to not wear niqab, and he didn't see any problem at all with this (unfortunately I don't remember his exact wording).

I know we had this discussion before but I can't seem to remember the thread about what can be seen.  I believe it had Sheikh Munajidd's or Sheikh Qaradawi's opinion, I can't recall now.  This other opinion that was posted that just about anything can be seen, I've never heard of that being a valid opinion.
Re: Rules of Engagment
Mona
07/19/01 at 19:09:25
Assalamu alaikum,

Arsalan, I think you raised an interesting point.  Really, how could a brother who believes that the face and hands of a woman are to be covered infront of non-mahrems *justify* him looking at her face in the marriage interview process.

My uneducated guess is that most brothers  would make an exception in these situations. I know a sister who was not a niqaabi before marriage who married a brother on the condition (which he made) that she should start wearing niqaab immediately after nikaah. This brother did not go looking for niqaabi eligible sisters and even required to see my friends photo without hijab!!  I thought it was very weird and very worrying. But they are happily married now.

My own brother, who is not a proponent of niqaab, and whose fiancee was a hijabi at the time of the engagement, asked to see her without the hijab (but modestly dressed otherwise) at her home the day before his katb-el k'tab (nikaah). He apparently read somewhere that that was okay. I can't remember now the exact text. I will try to ask him. But this is something that I totally disagreed with him on.  I was like, supposing you are right, it was the night before nikaah for crying out loud!! I was like : ahmmm, so were you planning on changing your mind on account that you didn't like her hair? He rationalized very off handedly. But apparently he did not want any *surprises* and was afraid like she was bald or something!!  I think it is very common to see such tendencies in brothers & sisters these days, that is they want to be absolutely certain that they know what they are getting themselves into and every little detail is researched and enquired about.

I drive my family crazy because I have been very particular about who I want to marry. In frustration my mom sometimes says that that person doesn't exist.  In the old days, she relates, the bride & groom didn't even see each other. Actually that was how my grandparents married sometime in the 1930s in Yaffa (Palestine). But this is was the custom then (they were more traditional than religious). These days, the prospective groom's female relatives (mom, sisters) would *conduct* the marriage interviews on his behalf, and made sure that the bride looks okay.

Egad, I am blabbing because I am trying to get away from editing my paper (phew...I am at the corrections stage now :))

Interesting evolution of ideas though!!

Wassalam




Re: Rules of Engagment
se7en
08/04/01 at 02:34:11
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

we discussed this issue a little [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=3275&start=0]here[/url].
Re: Rules of Engagment
Zara
08/07/01 at 06:57:55
slm

hey what about bro's who reckon voice is awrah too?? how would they interview their prospective niqaabi wife....A bro was giving dawa at our university to another bro he was saying the voice of a woman is awrah too.  i felt like saying no because transmitters of hadith were women, the wives of rasul'allah (saw) gave advice to ummah etc...but i did not want to disagree with the bro because he is in charge of the islamic society dawaa and i didn't have the nerve to dispute with him....wallahu alam

wlm

zara


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