Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| nawaz |
| 07/19/01 at 04:45:03 |
| The Betrayal of Kashmir From the 14th till the 16th of July, President Musharraf will be attending the Agra summit with Indian Prime Minister Atul Behari Vajpayee. The aim of the summit is to further normalise relations between the two countries by putting in motion a plan for the resolution of the Kashmir issue.Regarding the visit, President Musharraf has stated on numerous occasions that he intends to show “flexibility” in his approach. He has also expressed his desire to be remembered as the Pakistani leader who “makes history” by solving the longstanding Kashmir issue. These comments underscore the widely held perception that General Musharraf will be no different from his predecessors who chose to make history by being flexible to the interests of the kuffar and stubborn towards the interests of the Muslims. Previous Pakistani leaders have consistently betrayed Muslims by ceding land to the kuffar. General Ayub surrendered the three rivers to India. General Yahya and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto lost East Pakistan in 1971 and it was during General Zia’s rule that the Indians occupied the Siachin peaks. It was only a couple of years ago that the military leadership together with the mujahideen were waging jihad against the kafir Hindus at Kargil and refusing to surrender Kashmir. At the brink of victory America instructed her agent Nawaz Sharif to order the withdrawal of the army, thereby delivering the military a humiliating blow at the hands of her own government. The military leadership later displaced Nawaz Sharif from government but did not change the underlying system of government, through which America is able to have full control over Pakistani policy-making.Instead of raising the banner of jihad to liberate Kashmir, the military regime has continued to embrace the US policy for the region, the same policy that called for Nawaz Sharif to betray the sincere mujahideen, terminating their jihad just as they were about to overcome the Kafir Hindus. The American policy for the region is much wider than the issue of Kashmir alone; it is to use both Pakistan and India as regional counterweights to contain China’s emerging influence in Asia.To help achieve this, America is cajoling both countries to resolve their bilateral differences by engaging in a multi-faceted process of normalisation of relations between the two countries. Under directives from the US, the Pakistani government has attempted to disarm jihadi groups, marginalize the public mood for jihad in favour of peace, promote Indian culture and encourage economic cooperation between the two countries. But the greatest obstacle to normalisation remains the Kashmir issue, which can no longer be ignored if further progress towards normalisation is to take place. The government has worked tirelessly to implement the American policy thus far and will not abandon America as she embarks on the most important element in fulfilling her ambitions in this region. The American plan for Kashmir is now becoming obvious to those who follow such events closely. This will be based on some kind of formula for the partitioning of Jammu and Kashmir that would give greater independence or greater autonomy to the valley, at the expense of Pakistan waiving its rights to the Jammu and Ladakh regions. There are also strong indications that America is seeking the establishment of military bases in South Asia for the containment of China and the strategically placed Kashmir seems to be a probable contender. This plan provides the fastest route to a settlement of the Kashmir issue, but it is nothing short of a complete betrayal of the tens of thousands of Muslims of Kashmir, who lost their lives under the brutal occupation of kafir Hindu forces, and a complete betrayal of the thousands of mujahideen, who sacrificed their blood in 1948, 1965, and in the decade long Kashmiri uprising that culminated in Kargil in 1999, which was to rid Kashmir of its oppressive kafir rulers. How can the Musharraf Government possibly hope to win support amongst the Muslims of Pakistan for this treachery? The government will do this by highlighting the economic and political benefits it will allegedly gain from the division of Kashmir. On the economic front the government will argue that the likely benefits are to be more loans from donor countries and international financial institutions such as IMF and WB, increase in bilateral trade with India, improvement in foreign investor confidence, and the construction of a lucrative gas pipeline with Iran to supply gas to Indian industries. On the political front the government will argue that Pakistan will be in a unique position to shed its image as a supporter of terrorism and will be well received by the international community. In short, the Muslims of Pakistan are expected to sell their brothers and sisters in Kashmir in exchange for worldly economic and political benefits.What is more, such promises are a flagrant lie. These same promises were made to the Muslims of Bosnia and the Muslims of Palestine when their lands were divided. These same promises were made to Muslims throughout the previous two centuries of Western exploitation of the Muslim Ummah. How is it claimed that Muslims will acquire greater economic and political strength when they are divided from each other? How is it said that the Muslim Ummah will be stronger when she is fragmented than when she is unified? America well knows that such arguments are not sufficient to convince the noble Muslims of Pakistan to abandon their Kashmiri brothers and sisters.This is why President Musharraf embarked upon an elaborate plan to meet with all the leading opinion makers in the country: most importantly the political leaders, but also the media and the ulema, in order to procure their support for his intended treachery. These intensive meetings culminated in the meeting of 27th June, in which almost all of the Pakistani political leadership currently present in the country met with the President in order to repose full confidence in him for his forthcoming summit with Vajpayee. Included in this meeting were leaders of the dominant Islamic parties as well as the leaders of secular parties. Thus Musharraf leaves for Agra with the overwhelming backing of the entire Pakistani political medium. O Muslims of Pakistan! Your leaders have gathered together to conclude a great plan to betray your Kashmiri brothers and sisters, and to betray your interests as an Islamic Ummah. Do you choose to stand aside and accept their actions in a mood of defeatism and depression? You know that Allah has made it haraam on you to abandon Muslim land to the kuffar, or to let kuffar rule Muslims, Allah says: ‘And never will Allah grant to the disbelievers a way (sabeel) over the believers ’. The correct solution to the Kashmir problem is not to give a part of Kashmir to India, but to liberate all of it from the rule of the Hindu kafir; instead of aiding the ‘divide and rule policy’ of the kuffar, Muslims should work towards re-unifying all Muslim lands under a single leadership. Allah orders us to fight those disbelievers who fight us "O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." Do you think that you are too weak to fight the cowardly Hindus, who were present in their hundreds of thousands in the Kashmir valley, but were unable to dispose of a few thousand mujahideen? Or are you afraid of the superpower America, whose counterpart the Soviet Union you already defeated in Afghanistan? Or are you afraid of the Jews, whose army hides behind its tanks when the Muslim youth come out with nothing but stones? You are the lion who has been told that it cannot confront even the smallest of creatures. Just one strike of your limb will make clear to you the strength of the Muslim Ummah over all the other nations of the world. O Muslims of Pakistan! Pakistan has a strong and effective military machine; it has nuclear weapons, and has been blessed with vast natural resources in terms of fertile agricultural land, coal and gas; it also has a large and resourceful population. But the most valuable asset possessed by the Muslims of Pakistan is the Islamic Aqeedah, which in the past has demolished superpowers like the Romans and Persians. Allah says: “O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allah, He will help you and consolidate your foothold”. The problem of Kashmir is only one consequence of the problems that have plagued the Ummah since the end of Islamic rule, at the hands of the Western imperialist kuffar. They replaced Islamic rule in all our lands with systems modelled on Western concepts - systems that created generations of leaders with loyalties to Western ideas and Western interests. So it should not be surprising that all the present leaders have sided with the American plan against the interests of the Ummah. Muslims must look beyond simply replacing one Westernised leader with another Westernised leader. What is needed is a return to the Islamic system by re-establishing Khilafah, which will create generations of leaders whose sincerity lies only with Islam and the Muslim Ummah. O Muslims of Pakistan! We call on you to abandon your defeatism and to rise and re-establish the Islamic Khilafah. And then bear witness to the prophecy of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.), reported by Abu Hurairah: "the Messenger (saw) promised us the conquest of India. If I was to come across that, I will spend my soul and my wealth. If I am killed then I am among the best of martyrs, and if I return then I am Abu Huraira the freed" [Ahmad, An-Nisa'i, Al-Hakim]. And reported by Thawban "two groups of my ummah Allah has protected from the Hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group that will be with 'Isa ibnu Maryam" [Ahmad and An-Nisa'i]. |
| NS |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/20/01 at 19:44:37 |
| A.A. listen, Nawaz, I think your thread is totally uncalled for and the small-minded, ignorant opinions you are expressing should stay in your living room... the defamation of a group of people is not in right practice, especially when they are riddled with bias and lack of consideration... I DO NOT THINK THIS THREAD SHOULD BE HERE ... brother I am trying to say this as vehemently and yet as softly as I can through my not only do I disagree with it, but everytime someone puts up a Kashmir thread, it's always undefended by the oppsite, equally valid view... and since this is not a debate board... I can sit here and point out ALL of the garbage that's in that thread, but we'll let it go... but forgive me brother, I have sinned by reading this and becoming angry... I just want you to know because even though we don't agree... I guess as muslims we shouldn't harbour anything against people... Allah Subhana forgive me. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Kashif |
| 07/21/01 at 17:02:05 |
| [quote]not only do I disagree with it, but everytime someone puts up a Kashmir thread, it's always undefended by the oppsite, equally valid view...[/quote] assalaamu alaikum Dear akhee Abdullah I would be interested in reading your views on the opposite & equally valid view. If you have the time please post them. jazakallahu khair. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/22/01 at 12:21:00 |
| A.A. alright I will try to gather my opinions on the matter... the basis of what I am saying is that not every time a muslim fights is he in the right; muslims are NOT oppressed in India, that is a fallacy created by her rival and enemies to bring her down... this is not about kaffir and muslim, it's about the land-ownership and my request persists that Akhee Kashif, as the moderator of the Ummah Community Centre, that you remove or at least censor this thread IN THE LEAST so that it does not breach the constitution... you have not done that yet, and I know my opinion will be hard enough to express to the throngs of people who are believing that Indian government has something against specifically the muslims in Kashmir. That is an untruth, a lie, a fallacy, and I think as muslims we should birst look at who is in the just position and then judge... The propaganda coming out of this issue is saddenning... I ask again that you remove this thread. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Kashif |
| 07/22/01 at 14:14:24 |
| assalaamu alaikum Br. Abdullah i find the assertion that the Indian government has nothing against the Kashmiri Muslims quite absurd. If that had been the case why has their army perpetrated crime after crime against the *Muslims* of that region? In a scandalous attempt to tarnish the reputation of the mujahideen, the Hindu army even went to the extreme of massacring over 40 sikhs in a non-aligned village and blamed it on the mujahideen last year. And what of the rapes that the Indian army perpetrates against the Muslims there? How can we hear this and then pretend they have nothing against the adherents of Islam? I would agree with you that the initial posting is slightly misleading, but *I* don't think it crosses the mark of unacceptability. This is a discussion board, and you, I, or anyone else who disagrees with the posting is completely free to to do so, and voice their opinion or refute - if they have evidence - what has earlier been stated. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/23/01 at 00:25:40 |
| A.A. brother Kashif, your response and criticims is well taken and when you ask for proof, yeah i would like to see proof first of all, the Indian Army is not the Hindu army( it is a secular army)...it doesn't stand on the basis of religion and muslims are in the army as well... also, please send me any reliable media refernces to, for example, a hindu army massacring a twon of Sikhs and blaming the mujahideen When you say the Indian army having nothing aganist Kashmiri muslims is absurd, to some point, you may be right, why? because their is an insurgence that makes these muslims their believe that they are oppressed... when you commit acts of terrorism for cessation, the army, yes, does step in, and hence they say, "you are now attacking all of islam" The disputre there from the Indian side is not about Islam, it's about people who are insurging to divide the country of a state that rightfully belongs to India and what of his use of deragatory language? he generlizes blatantly by using "cowardly hindu"... how is that constitutional and respectful to a group of people and about the rapes, if a soldier does that, the entire army is not attacking Islam... there are (or there were at least) more muslims in India than in Pakistan... muslims are not oppressed by the government anywhere else the BJP is actually considered a secular government with some hindu viewpoints ... it doesn't instill hindu codes of law... I think that post was a propagandic attempt at angering msulims against Indians, their central government and moreover hindus who are, as a group, not persecuting muslims. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| NewJehad |
| 07/23/01 at 07:37:24 |
| Asalm walakum We can argue about who Kashmir belongs to using international man made law, or using UN (united non-believers) resolutions until yowmulqiyama and we will still not come to an agreement. The fact is we are Muslim these are their so called criteria not ours. Our criterion is Islam. Not man made law. According to Islam if a land is ruled by Islam it is considered Muslim Land, even after it has been conquered by a Kufr power. Any one who gives a hand span of Muslim land away, Allah gives them a hand span of land in the narr. We know from history that all of India is considered Muslim land. So we know we can't give it away to the kaffar. It is also a fact that Pakistan is not ruled by Islam. Pakistan and India have the same systems, but one has a Muslim majority and the other a Hindu. To liberate Kashmir and the rest of India from Kufr law, we need to first liberate Muslim Majority land from kufr law. It is a fact that today the whole world needs liberating from kufr law. The leaflet Nawaz stuck up was talking about the fact that the new president of Pakistan is intending to give away what the mujahideen have been fighting for for all this time. He came to power on the bandwagon of liberating Kashmir and instead he is giving it away. The aim of the leaflet is clearly not to beg the president who keeps dogs to liberate Kashmir cause he clearly behaves as loyal as the dogs he keeps to his master in the White House. Before any thing can be done that will work to liberate Kashmir and the rest of India, it is clear that Pakistan needs to be liberated first, from the evil of all the presidents who have ruled it with kufr. They all justified their positions with slogans of liberating Kashmir, but no real actions. Kashmir has a lot in common with Palestine that's why Jews and Mushriks have now started to work together as they did against our prophet. Our main fight is against the apostate rulers, to liberate the lands filled with Muslims from the evils of apostasy, then inshallah we will have a united force to liberate the rest of the world from kufr. Remember Islam came as a mercy to all of mankind. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/23/01 at 16:12:15 |
| A.A. I do not agree with you and I will tell you why... asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/23/01 at 16:15:41 |
| A.A. [quote] The fact is we are Muslim these are their so called criteria not ours. Our criterion is Islam. Not man made law. [/quote] yet we still have to consider the laws of our world... not follow, but consider... that is the problem with some muslims today... they say that they can do anything they want to others because Islam allows them to... We must also consider the other side of the situation... we cannot act like supremacists... we must know we are right in your deen but be humble... [quote] According to Islam if a land is ruled by Islam it is considered Muslim Land, even after it has been conquered by a Kufr power. Any one who gives a hand span of Muslim land away, Allah gives them a hand span of land in the narr.[/quote] that's fine, but this depends on if the muslims were there first and were rightfully supposed to be there... [quote] We know from history that all of India is considered Muslim land. [/quote] I think this is totally... India considered Muslim Land? India was overrun by muslims who plundered, pillaged, raped and massacred people of India who were their living peacefully for centuries... Forced conversions followed by the Mughal Emperors... Was it Auzanzeb who boasts about destroying 80,000 temples? I can see here that there is a problem in the actions of those muslims... Those actions stain Islam (as I see it, Allah Subhana forgive me if I am wrong) [quote]So we know we can't give it away to the kaffar.[/quote] It was TAKEN from the kaffar... Their religion is wrong, but their right to be on their land is not... I understanbd their is a hadeeth, or I have heard, that India is said by Rasool-Allah [SAW] to be future muslim land... can I hear it please brother? I am sure Rasool-Allah [SAW] and Allah Subhana would want us to gain this land fairl and not by evil conquest... [quote] It is a fact that today the whole world needs liberating from kufr law.[/quote] And I agree with this brother-in-Islam because we are not ruled by Islam, but we must do this fairly, don't you think? Make people aware of Islam, bring more people to Islam, increase dawah, act responsibly, fight the right causes, show people what true Islam is... There is not one place in the world where 100% shariah runs... is there? Even, like you said, Pakistan would not use that land in Kashmir, even if they wrongfully obtained it, as a Muslim Land... [quote]Before any thing can be done that will work to liberate Kashmir and the rest of India, it is clear that Pakistan needs to be liberated first, from the evil of all the presidents who have ruled it with kufr. They all justified their positions with slogans of liberating Kashmir, but no real actions.[/quote] I think this has to be done more subtely... not by resorting to violence Who knows? maybe India will be eventually msulim by fair and peaceful means... Muslims are not an oppressed groups in India... okay, maybe their are groups of people who persecut either side, but on the whole, any claim that kaffirs oppress the muslims I think is total rubbish, and the fact that there hs to be a war with India to remove the kaffirs is total rubbish. [quote] Kashmir has a lot in common with Palestine that's why Jews and Mushriks have now started to work together as they did against our prophet. [/quote] No, the situation is different... see, the rights of muslims in Palestine are revoked... Muslims are persecuted for being muslim in Palestine... for the sake of their Islam Muslims aren't given place to live in Palestine... Muslims, also, are SUPPOSE to be there first They got kicked off their land Kashmir has always, does, and should belong to , yes regretfully, hindu-majority India until it can be fairly regained... [quote] Remember Islam came as a mercy to all of mankind. [/quote] Then why can't we all have mercy and patience with mislead people whoi know not what they do in the way of religion? Let us hate what kaffirs worship, but love them fo rthat is the way they will see Islam. Again, personal example, When people called me "stupid kaffir" , "salah hindu" (Bast#@! hindu) and stuff lik that, I was turned off from Islam... when I realized that actions of muslims and Islam can be totally separate, I accepted Islam. Please understand that brother I love you and all the other muslims in this Ummah... and I also love all other non-muslims who know not their own folly... It is hard to hear about this seemingly "anti-muslim-Kashmir" talk... I want the entire world to see Islam... but not unfairly and not unjustly something so pure cannot be instilled by unpure means... We are always separating the actions of some muslims from Islam, yet when a non-muslim acts, it's always "THOSE KAFFIRS" that is ignorant I think. I am not saying to dwell on the msitakes of the past... Amidst all the sins, at least people became muslims, but that doesn't mean we have to repeat our mistakes... We should change our attitude. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| BroHanif |
| 07/23/01 at 17:19:25 |
| A.W.W. Brother Abdullah I agree with most of your post but the quote below... [quote]India was overrun by muslims who plundered, pillaged, raped and massacred people of India who were their living peacefully for centuries... [/quote] Brother, India was never plundered, pillaged or raped. That is complete nonsense, that is what historians have dilluted the past with. Why is it that evey Muslim conquest is seen as bloody, barbarism and causing mass genocide to the lives of the ordinary people. Historians can and will always distort the truth. Please do your research to how Islam came to India it is an amazing story. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/23/01 at 22:51:29 |
| A.A. brother, if I have offended you, I am sorry... If you are angrily telling me to do my research, forgive me... The conquests of muslims were not all bloody and war-like... The muslim establishment in India though was not entirely peaceful... different Mughals rulers did differant things, I understand that... but I felt the way I described it was... maybe I am wrong, I hope I am wrong... that is what most people in India will tell you, what you will read... very well, let's hope it is all distorted history... after all, past is past, BroHaniff, brother, do you have any articles on the history of India and Islam which are truthful in your opinion? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| NewJehad |
| 07/24/01 at 07:21:16 |
| Slm Abdullah We consider international law as law written by the enemy. It is a law constructed by the powerful regimes of the world for the weak regimes to be tide down by. When do the powerful regimes follow it? They have written it and they them selves don't follow it. And any way, we do have our laws, Islam, and unlike theirs, our laws is here to be followed, while theirs is used just as a excuse to pound weaker nations in to submission. We are not supreme, as we are human, in the same way our enemies are human. But we must remember that our deen is supreme, and we can prove it. If we reject our deen, then we become nothing. If our enemy excepts it then they become our brothers. We must remember that Islam is not just what we think is the truth, it is the truth and any one who knows any thing about it knows that it is the truth. As truth shines out clearly from falsehood. I need to deal with a myth that all the enemies of Islam propagate and Muslims some times unwittingly spread: Muslims of Egypt, Arabia, Syria, Bosnia, India, Kashmir, and the rest of the world are not invaders, they are the people who were in that land before the Islamic invasion, who excepted Islam. When an Islamic army moves in to a country, all the native population don't suddenly disappear, and hordes of Muslims suddenly appear to replace them. If we look at the nations which were conquered by Islamic armies we see that the Muslim population of the land is the same colour, and race and in some places still belong to the same tribes as the non Muslim population. Compare that with nations conquered by the Europeans. America, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand etc. I will repeat, In Islam we believe our deen is a mercy to all of mankind, not just believers. It is our job to liberate all nations, Muslim and non-Muslim, from the oppression of man made law. When we liberate nations, most of them often become Muslim in a couple of generation when they see the beauty of Allah's system for mankind. When our role modal Amer Bin Al Ass liberated Egypt from the evil of Roman role, the only Muslims their were him and his 500 solders, but pretty soon, the whole nation started except the deen of Allah's last prophet, that's why today only a small percentage still remain in the religion of cross worship. You said: "India was overrun by Muslims who plundered, pillaged, raped and massacred people of India who were their living peacefully for centuries..." This is not true, this myth was first was invented by the British to justify their rape, pillage and massacre. The Islamic invasion was to liberate India from the evil of Man made law of rape, pillage and massacre. The west likes to attack Arangzeeb as he was the first Islamic Mogul ruler. He fought his own father and brothers for Islam. He also executed one of his brothers for being an apostate. The lies against him are just a myth, as if he was forcing non-Muslims to become Muslim, why was his army full of non-Muslims? Even the Sikh Guru fought in many of his battles after he had forgiven him for rebelling against him. You said " It was TAKEN from the kaffar..." Us re-conquering the land does not take any thing away from the non-Muslims who live there, it is a liberation for them. If it wasn't for the evils of kufr propaganda the non-Muslim citizens will know Islam is liberation for them. Once we rule the non-Muslims with pure Islam they will see, and inshallah will soon all become Muslim. Muslims Hindus and people of what ever other religion are oppressed in India as it is ruled by man made law. We need to liberate it as we need to liberate all other nations. What you claim the situation of Muslims in India is, is the government line, I have heard it from many pro government Indian Muslims, it is also the government line of the Serbs and Zionists. They claim too that the Muslims are foreigners and live there in peace. If it is so peaceful in Kashmir, so why are their so many refugees fleeing it? I am familiar with this line, as I am originally from a Muslim minority country, where there is a Muslim majority area where Muslims are being massacred. The Muslims in the rest of the country consider the Muslims in that province as foreigners and often side with the government. Even though the government has recently started killing and raping Muslims all over the country. It is a fact that there has been many anti Muslim riots all over India, I don't consider the riots as the act of criminals, as the government has done little or nothing against them. It is clear that they are the work of the government in the same way the Sebra and Shatilah massacres were the work of the Zionist entity. It is true that there are Muslims in the Indian army, who busy them selves fighting Muslims. This does not justify India's position as there are many Muslims in the Muslim armies who busy them selves killing Muslims. We all know the Syrian army's destruction of the city of Hammah, for no other crime then wanting Islamic law. And the statement of the Turkish general who said, "if the whole country wants Islamic law I will kill every one". |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Anik |
| 07/25/01 at 09:37:51 |
| A.A. Brother Jehad, I appreciate your response to my post... you know, the thing i said much before was i find it discomforting when muslim rulers or societies in the past make mistakes and they are human, so they will... but when today's muslims try to cover it up, justify them, say "no, it's a Western distortion" or "kaffir propaganda"... I say, of course muslims will not accept that they too have made big errors... I always see a muslim ready to argue till the end but never admit a fault, but the thing is we have to learn to accept certain things, and move to improve... see, the US could be blamed as well as the UK for certain problems... but they don't deny them, they say "it's history, let's work on today" and done, ppl forget that they were once brutal slave-drivers... but in the muslim world, it seems we are always justifying... as if we NEVER make mistakes and are always right... so when we don't accept that ppl in the past were ... just ppl in the past, we maintain our image of stubborness and exclusivity... and that in turn brings upon us a bad look from the rest of the world... As a new muslim, I see that as Islam's problem... anywhere they settle in the world, conflict arises and innocents are killed... because we can't accept mistake and work to heal... we believe that we can march into ppl's houses and tell them what is good for them... no, that is wrong in my opinion (Allah Subhana forgive me if I am wrong) The same way Rasool Allah [SAW] insturcted us how to enter a house is how we should do it... knock to see if someone is home... if the don't respond after three times, try again later, don't force your way in... only enter if you are allowed... ask permission first... Masha'Allah, the brotehrs and sisters these days are doing a great job but I feel their were , understandably, mistakes in the past... but Rasool-Allah [SAW] prophesised it would happen, that muslim generations would fall into worng-doing and the true muslims would be very few... the rulers would be the worst amongst the muslims... [quote] We consider international law as law written by the enemy. It is a law constructed by the powerful regimes of the world for the weak regimes to be tide down by. [/quote] man, they are not the "enemy", at least not in battle-terms... they just have different ideas, they are confused... they are not pitted against the truth, they also want to find a way, but they don't know what it is, so that doesn't make them "the enemy" that mentality will bring nothing but apathy to muslims... let's show them, not force them for some reason, muslims think forcing first and then showing is the answer... even Islamic law, we must admit, ties down other regimes... in fact it doesn't allow for it... so let's not saythat other regimes muffle freedom of structure... Allah Subhana has instructed that their be no freedom (unless all are muslim) to set up non-muslim government in a shariah ruled land... and that is His will... so who are the exclusivists? us [quote] And any way, we do have our laws, Islam, and unlike theirs, our laws is here to be followed, while theirs is used just as a excuse to pound weaker nations in to submission. [/quote] actually, we are told to keep non-muslims in our ideal msulim khailafa subdued (See Surah Al-Baquara) [quote] But we must remember that our deen is supreme, and we can prove it. If we reject our deen, then we become nothing.[/quote] Fine, we know we are the best... so let's prove it and take the high path... accept mistakes, improve today, represent for an Islamic future There is no compulsion in Islam towards others right? cool, so let's follow that... [quote] We must remember that Islam is not just what we think is the truth, it is the truth and any one who knows any thing about it knows that it is the truth. [/quote] You have to remember all groups think that way... we don't have to push the truth on everybody... if Islam is the truth above all (and it is, Masha'Allah), then it should be readily apparent to, exactly as you said, those who know it... so all other people are just blinded... [quote] Muslims of Egypt, Arabia, Syria, Bosnia, India, Kashmir, and the rest of the world are not invaders, they are the people who were in that land before the Islamic invasion, who excepted Islam.[/quote] that's true, but at least in some places,it's due to forced conversions, war and extreme societal pressure people keep doubting and denying this... muslims keep talking about the "plight" of muslims in Kashmir while they don't have any idea... they haven't been there, knownppl there... know the history know both sides even... they give benefits of the doubt to history and to all claims of Jihad... that's what i see... [quote] When an Islamic army moves in to a country, all the native population don't suddenly disappear, and hordes of Muslims suddenly appear to replace them.[/quote] again, true, most accept Islam but there have been forced conversionsin the past... they are often beaten into submission... after seige and invasion they suffer ANOMIE lackof identification with a culture displacement they long for belonging and accept Islam without much choice, disheartened... you know, it's good that they see Islam eventually, but that's not the right way... just like beating a kid to submission is no way of teaching him love and respect... abusing a wife to show her her duties and responsibilities demanding for a blind man to see will not heal his eyes... only Allah Subhana does this and we must love and be patient and kind... Did Rasool-Allah [SAW] unfairly enter territory? do tell please... [quote] I will repeat, In Islam we believe our deen is a mercy to all of mankind, not just believers. [/quote] so lets be merciful... for the sake of Allah Subhana, we will win over more muslims by showing them how good we are, not how staunch and arrogant about past mistakes, and exclusivist we are... [quote] It is our job to liberate all nations, Muslim and non-Muslim, from the oppression of man made law. [/quote] i don't agree... so we should just attack every non-muslim population to establish shariah? [quote] When we liberate nations, most of them often become Muslim in a couple of generation when they see the beauty of Allah's system for mankind. [/quote] That's true, but the stainof the method stays behind... gone are the days when we should war and so on... these days, we have progressed to a battle of the mind... let Islam enetr hearts without a drop of blood... show them who we are... and how compassionate Allah Subhana is... [quote] You said: "India was overrun by Muslims who plundered, pillaged, raped and massacred people of India who were their living peacefully for centuries..." This is not true, this myth was first was invented by the British to justify their rape, pillage and massacre.[/quote] no my friend, i don't knwo how much you know, or if u live dthere or new ppl both hindu and muslim, but the entire response to that claim was incorrect It was because the muslim rulers invaded that British could easily march all over a uncoordinated land... they never went to war! brother, have u read history - even fom an Indian point of view! [quote] The Islamic invasion was to liberate India from the evil of Man made law of rape, pillage and massacre.[/quote] Well that's how they entered... I think they used Islam as an excuse to enter new land... well, at least people became muslim, but *sigh* some innocent people had to die...some many innocent naive people [quote] The west likes to attack Arangzeeb as he was the first Islamic Mogul ruler. He fought his own father and brothers for Islam. He also executed one of his brothers for being an apostate.[/quote] Accounts of Aurangzeb are still chronicled in texts not from the west, but from India in itself... all the muslims from India and Pakistan who read this... that man could've killed your old ancestors for the simple reason of naivety... man that's what I mean... the muslim tyrant is a hero... and that's sickening... why don't people say that about Rasool-Allah [SAW]? because they know he did things with reason... [quote] The lies against him are just a myth, as if he was forcing non-Muslims to become Muslim, why was his army full of non-Muslims? Even the Sikh Guru fought in many of his battles after he had forgiven him for rebelling against him.[/quote] Ask a Sikh what he thinks about that... It's sad Sikhism had to come about in our world... it is an attempt to reconcile badly-represented Islam and blind-and-foolish-but-fighting-for-basic-human-rights hinduism... That guru, was it Guru Amardas, was executed brother...because he was sick of how muslims were being outrightly oppressive, and poor people no one in the rulership could properly represent Islam, so they had to come to this... [quote] Once we rule the non-Muslims with pure Islam they will see, and inshallah will soon all become Muslim.[/quote] I hope this will come true Insha'Allah, but let's do it in a nice way... no I don't believe, for the record, that if people don't know they should be beaten... it's different if they attack muslims (that is NOT the case in India, despite allof the propapganda from muslim extremist groups) first.. [quote] We need to liberate it as we need to liberate all other nations.[/quote] let's do it subtely perhaps? or change the battlefield... the heart [quote] They claim too that the Muslims are foreigners and live there in peace. If it is so peaceful in Kashmir, so why are their so many refugees fleeing it?[/quote] no worng, Indians and teh government have moved on from mistake sin the past... they see muslims as integral part of India... in my town, we all get along just fine... and it's a muslim majority mind you you know what? let's work together, not against each other... that doesn't equal complacency... you know in the news in India I read something I though was pathetic on our part... In Kolkatta (formely Calcutta) there is a masjid where after Jumaa on fridays, the muslims leave and the sick ones stay behind... then, Buddhist monks come to run a health camp and make-shift clinic... why can't we do that I asked? because we only feel that muslims deserve aid? no... that's not right... I said Muslim doctors shoudl be in there... well that's a sad story... anyways... [quote] I am originally from a Muslim minority country, where there is a Muslim majority area where Muslims are being massacred. [/quote] not every country is like every other... situations are different history is unique even the other people there are different [quote] The Muslims in the rest of the country consider the Muslims in that province as foreigners and often side with the government. [/quote] maybethe ones you spoke to but the majority, i don't think so brother... [quote] It is a fact that there has been many anti Muslim riots all over India, I don't consider the riots as the act of criminals, as the government has done little or nothing against them. It is clear that they are the work of the government in the same way the Sebra and Shatilah massacres were the work of the Zionist entity.[/quote] no, they are hindu-muslimriots... not anti-muslim... they could just as well be anti-hindu the are clashes between two different groups of people happens in countries where they live side by side with no understanding of each other RIOTS THE WORK OF THE GOVERNMENT? WITH ALL DUE RESPECT BROTHER, WHERE HAVE U OBTAINED YOUR KNOWLEDGE? I AM NOT SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT INDIAN THAT YOU WOULDN'T KNOW THE SITUATION, BUT THOSE CLAIMS ARE TOTAAAAAAAALLY SOUNDING LIKE SOMEONE'S BEEN FEEDING YOU SOME WRONG INFO... If you are wonderign how i know, since i might sound a little haughty here as if i know everything, my family in India in involved in politics... Central Governemnt as well as State organizations... as well as the army and my brothers who are muslim have opposite views, so I get to see firsthand what everybody is saying... [quote] It is true that there are Muslims in the Indian army, who busy them selves fighting Muslims. [/quote] That , I will agree, is wrong... [quote] We all know the Syrian army's destruction of the city of Hammah, for no other crime then wanting Islamic law. And the statement of the Turkish general who said, "if the whole country wants Islamic law I will kill every one". [/quote] Wanting Islamic law is no crime... but when we install it, let us not commit any crimes to ensure just that... A perfect state of Islam (which btw, in even "muslim" countries hasn't been reached) let's keep trying look, I am not anti-Islam here... obviously not actually, I am a muslim by choice... like Sr. Saleema, I am sometimes afraid to post here since I may be branded as a maverick My view is that some muslims haven't been the best people in the past and have poorly represented Islam... the muslim invasion and occuptaion of India was wrong... (many of) the mughals had evil intents and were completely corrupt bigots... it started with the Turkish conqueror Taimur in 1398 in a bloody raid on India that ended in a sack of Delhi... then Babur's invasion... these were all outright bloody massacres... and yes, forced conversions... evil entry into another country... and they settle their... and set up new kingdoms, wiping out old and if it was to bring Islam to India and these people wanted to promote it, why the heck wasn't it placed under true Islamic Law? Nobody seems to see that... they used Islam as a way of identifying themselves and a justification that kaffirs are like flys and should be wiped out in the MILLIONS... After their stay, they became a part of the culture, no problem, we all move on... even though what was done to India by "muslims" was actually what Israel is doing (ten times worse in my opinion) to muslims in Palastine... so right from the start, please anyone don't feed me the propaganda that Islam came beautifully to India, prancing on ideals and preaching people who readily reverted millions of faithful... that's total rubbish this thread is called the Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir... It should more properly be about the Betrayal BY Muslims of Kashmir... Why is it that so many countries they live in, we have to overrun? although we are all muslims, I don't even feel like associating myself with those types of muslims... Overrun someone else's culture, tell them what they should be doing, tell them they have to do it... everywhere muslims settle there is conflict (mostly) because we haven't been living in peace People know that implementing Shariah through entering the Central Governemnt is harder... so they want to justify busting heads to get thir way... shame shame shame... if all the muslims in India complain about the system, why don't they go to Pakistan where Islam isn't even being implemented properly? Th country was made for it... no? someone tell me if I am wrong... I just ask... let's see both sides before we issue the edict on the situation and start to rant and rave on how the kaffirs are this and that and how they are opressing muslims this and that... it's so sad that people who are muslim can see the greatest truths in the world, Islam, and yet they are still blind to see a situation fairly. Let us make dua for the innocent dying muslims everywhere, and the naive and blind non-muslims. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
|---|
| NewJehad |
| 07/25/01 at 12:41:21 |
| slm you said" you know, the thing I said much before was I find it discomforting when Muslim rulers or societies in the past make mistakes and they are human, so they will..." It is true that only the prophet's rule was perfect. All other humans make mistakes. And some people do evil not to do with making mistakes, but to do with rebelling against Allah. There have been many Muslim figures in the past that are recorded as tyrants, no one tries to hide their evil. As amer bin maruf wa nahi illal munkar is a key part of Islam. What is different between the west and us is what we regard as wrong, a lot of things we do and we regard as good are considered as evil by the capitalistic criteria. While everything they regard as good is considered as evil by our criteria of Quran and Sunnah. They regard homosexuality as freedom of choice while we regard it as a capital crime. They them selves used to punish homos. Since they dumped the last of what remains of Jesus's religion, they have decided their previous persecution of homos was a mistake, as it goes against their new religion of capitalism. Today all the so-called Muslim governments (apostate western wannabes) have adopted capitalism as their criteria, but still have the odd Islamic law here and there. The western regimes accuse them of making the same mistakes as the west by keeping those non-capitalistic remnants of Islam. We must remember our criteria of judging actions before judging the things the west attack regimes for. Today all Muslim governments (apostate western wannabes) need to be attacked, I don't think any one who knows what they are ruling by and knows the basics or our aqeeda and Islamic law will try and defend them. You said "man, they are not the "enemy", at least not in battle-terms... they just have different ideas, they are confused..." I am not calling them our enemy, I am calling them the enemy of all of humanity, and even the animals. We all know what the people who now rule the world unchallenged are responsible for. So I am not going to list them, else Jannah's web page will run out of memory. It is not only the Muslims who hold them and their laws in contempt, just watch the news about the riots in Italy etc to find out how humanity regard them. They are evil people who rule for the sake of evil. They are Satanists of the worst kind. They suck the lifeblood out of humanity and the earth for no other reason then to satisfy their sadistic pleasure. You asked "There is no compulsion in Islam towards others right?" Lah ikrah fideen, as truth shines out from falsehood we don't need to compel people to become Muslim as showing them Islam is enough for them to know it is the truth. Only Allah can make them humble enough to except it. We have been forbidden to force people to become Muslim. People who become Muslim for another reason then believing in it have a name, Munafiq. They are worse then the kaffar. So forcing some one will make him join a rank worse then his present one. It is clear that the actions of Munafiq are worse then the actions of the kaffar, just look at the actions of the rulers of the present day Muslim world. But when it comes to obedience of the law, the people who don't obey the law of Allah due to their takwa will be made to obey the laws due to their fear of punishment. We allow non-Muslims to keep their old religion, but don't allow them to rape, steal or be homosexuals etc. if they do they will be punished with Islamic law just like Muslims. You said: "that's true, but at least in some places, it's due to forced conversions, war and extreme societal pressure" Please give clear examples naming laws pasted sanctioning forced conversion. The verse of the Quran forbidding it is clear. So a ruler who practices it will commit major kufr and leave the fold of Islam, and make his blood lawful and rebellion against him compulsory. In other words he will become like all the present day rulers of the Muslim world. There were times when rulers were about to do this, but they were stopped by the mechanisms within the khilafah to account the ruler. I will give two examples from the uthmani khilafah: When the Spanish made forcible conversion of Muslim official, the Khalif decided to retaliate against the Coptic Christians of Egypt, but the shaik ul Islam stopped him quoting the above verse. When Serbia was invaded, the Serbs had a reputation of being very rebellious. The then Khalif proposed that all Serb adult males be given the chose between death and embracing Islam, he was stopped again by the then Shaik ul Islam. The Spanish did practice forcible conversion, that's how they managed to wipe out all the Muslims, Jews, Unitarian Christians and Protestants in Spain. If Muslims practised Forcible conversion why are there still Hindus present? You said: "so we should just attack every non-Muslim population to establish shariah?" yep, except not population, but Non-Islamic regime, whether the majority of people inside the state are Muslim or non-Muslim. Jihad is not to exterminate or enslave but to free people from the bondage of man made law and judge them by some thing better. First we invite the people to Islam, if they refuse we invite them to pay Jizya (become part of the Islamic state and make it obligatory for all Muslims to protect them). If they refuse we fight. Once an Islamic governor conquered a part of India without doing this. The population of that area sent a complaint to the Khalif, the Khalif ordered him to evacuate the province and do the procedure as it should be done. You said: "gone are the days when we should war and so on..." there will always be war, evil people rule for the sake of evil. When their evil can not be stopped using peaceful means, another means becomes compulsory. The reason why the British were able to do what they did was because Mogul rule fragmented. When so called Muslim rulers divided them selves in to petty little states constantly fighting each other, it was easy for the British to pit one against the other. One British general said: First we will pit Muslim against Hindu then Hindu against Hindu and Muslim against Muslim. That's what they did. And it worked. I agree with you that Muslims wrongly say it is a battle between Muslims and Hindus. The enemy is the governments, and after we deal with the governments in the Muslim majority lands, India, Israel etc will be next Inshallah. The Mongols were not all Muslim, and often the ones who were, were recent converts who practised individual acts of worship but continued the Mongol tradition of warfare and ruling. No one will justify the evil actions some of them committed, remember the bulk of the victims of the Mongol invasions were Muslim. I think you need to look at Indian History in a fresh light, cause most of our differences are not in interpretation of facts, but the facts them selves. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
|---|
| Anik |
| 07/25/01 at 20:04:18 |
[quote]Please give clear examples naming laws pasted sanctioning forced conversion.[/quote] I can tell you names of people today who's family had to move in past generations to new countries because ppl basiclaly told them "convert or die" listen no one sanctions forced conversion, that is accepted because Islam is a fair religion, but the point I am making is that people go about impure ways to install a pure religion... WRONG FOR RIGHT I disagree when you say: If Muslims practised Forcible conversion why are there still Hindus present? I'll give you page and referenceif u ask... some Mughals didn not want to convert the entire population because much of their revenue came from Jizya, that they did not want tt lose... They couldn't convert everybody... Brother, I think you need to look at Indian History in a light of personal accounts, family history, Indian-perspective history, Outside-persepective history, and THEN muslim history... you will see that there were good and their were bad... I am seriously wondering where u have learned your facts from? so attack people to install shariah? [quote]yep, except not population, but Non-Islamic regime, whether the majority of people inside the state are Muslim or non-Muslim. Jihad is not to exterminate or enslave but to free people from the bondage of man made law and judge them by some thing better.[/quote] that's called a violation of human rights... basic human rights and freedoms... free people fromn the bondage of man-made law? Let us decide in our own countries how they are run, but not another's... seriously, if you see how the argument you present sounds... "We think this is best for you, so do this because we said so or get ready to get your head kicked in" essentially, that is what you are saying... that is savage and barbaric... uncalled for... If anyone, muslim or non-muslim, touched my innocent family by marching into their home uninvited and unprovoked to tell them something like that when they lived in a well-settled and previously non-muslim land by choice living under laws that were man-made, I would fight that man, muslim or non-muslim my family once asked me, If I was in India with them and a hindu-muslim riot broke out on the streets around us, what would you do? fight us? I said of course not. fight our people? If they fight muslims UNFAIRLY... and if other muslims try to kill us? I will fight them to not touch the INNOCENT. Some Muslims have this ridiculous motto... We touch you, you can't touch us back... You touch us, we make sure you're dead. [quote]First we invite the people to Islam, if they refuse we invite them to pay Jizya (become part of the Islamic state and make it obligatory for all Muslims to protect them). If they refuse we fight. [/quote] do we have Allah Subhana's permission to do this? Why should they pay us if we are entering their country? It's different if they settled in ours. See, lots of struggling muslims work so hard on gaining land that isn't theirs for "Islamic" purposes, and all the while all the "muslim" countries don't even properly instill Islamic Law... Work on what we have... But the top people are corrupt and want more land, treasure and resources... I keep saying this over and over... we should chnage our ways of showing people, not our beliefs... [quote]The enemy is the governments, and after we deal with the governments in the Muslim majority lands, India, Israel etc will be next Inshallah. [/quote] Let's deal with the so called muslim countries first... Israel go ahead invade because they are FACTUALLY and WRONGFULLY on established muslim land and are oppressing muslims clearly... but India... no my brother, I make dua we can show them Islam in a way that is moral as well... Otherwise it's like a guest, uninvited, barging into a hosts' home, is treated to all the host's nice foods and comforts, get's in bed with his host's wife, and then rearranges the furniture... whe he ousts the host and takes over the household, he decides to tear down the house and build a new one... that's what it's like... Let's knock... ask to come in... once in, show the host how nice we are... when the host sees truth in a clear and perfect exampleof purity (Islam) they will sell the house to you on their own... [quote]I think you need to look at Indian History in a fresh light, [/quote] Yes brother, where do you get your facts from? I wonder if you know enough to argue validly? Please read history in it's original form... not the chronicles some muslim ruler who was a tyrant decided to have written about his own glory... asalaamu alaiukm. abdullah,. |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
|---|
| humble_muslim |
| 07/26/01 at 11:07:55 |
| AA Moderators, is it time to stop this thread ? At the moment, it seems that it is getting into a discussion about the finer points of Jihad between relatively uninformed brothers. How about just putting up links to sites with infomration written about Jihad by REAL scholars ? For my two cents, I just heard the following ayat on the way to work this morning, which really puts the situation in Kashmir into perspective : And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" I sometimes think that Allah out of his mercy will forgive my sins on the day of judgement, and even accept my shortcomings in my ibadat, but will he accept my "sit back and watch" attitude towards this ayat ? |
| NS |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
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| Saleema |
| 07/26/01 at 13:02:06 |
| because much of their revenue came from Jizya, that they did not want tt lose... Muslim are obliged to pay zakat, those that can afford it. and non muslims payed jizya only when they could afford it. [wlm] Saleema |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
|---|
| NewJehad |
| 07/26/01 at 14:56:00 |
| slm you said" that's called a violation of human rights... basic human rights and freedoms..." The human rights laws are not worth the paper they are written on, not even the people who formulated them follow them. As I said before, we have our own laws and values. The one dictated to us by the creator. The conquered nations have the rights Allah has given them, not the rights written by the victors of the second world war, who them selves refuse to be tide down by those laws. You mentioned about we should be concerned with our own countries. The term 'own countries' is related to the concept of nation state. Which is a capitalistic concept. We don't recognise it. As far as we are concerned the whole world belongs to Allah. And all nations need to be liberated from man made law. None Muslims do have the freedom to live the way they see fit in their individual life. But when it comes to societal matters we will judge them according to Islam, whether they like it or not. You consider the fact that we intend to rule people by Islam whether they like it or not as barbaric, but that's what all laws are. Laws are their to prevent people from living as they see fit on the areas covered by the laws. The difference is the laws we impose on people are laws created by the creator. Before the Islamic invasion of India, India was not some kind of absolute democracy where people lived how they wanted to, there were laws, man made ones, and there were kings ruling them. The purpose of jizyah is in exchange for protection, as military service is compulsory on Muslims and not one the kaffar. If a kaffar joins the army, then there is no jizyah on him. You mention that the mogals wanted to keep non-Muslim populations because of jizyah, you know jizyah is less then zakat? And Muslims pay zakat and kaffars don't. And if ever the Muslims can't protect the land, the jizyah must be returned. It has happened. You know jizyah is a tax, there were taxes long before the Islamic invasion. The difference is we have taxes that Allah has proscribed, while the taxes before and since Islamic rule are taxes imposed by humans. You asked about where I get my facts from. Books written by both Muslims and non-Muslims. The ones I trust more are the Muslim sources. Every one has a agenda, both Muslim and kaffars. But a Muslims fear of the last day might compel him to speak the truth. What compulsion have people who don't believe in that day? |
| Re: The Betrayal of Muslims in Kashmir |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 07/26/01 at 15:56:18 |
| assalaamu alaikum This thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and its pretty clear that neither side will be able to convince the other of their opinion. So before bad feeling has a chance to set in, i'm locking the thread. jazakumullahu khair. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
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