is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II

Madina Archives

Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Saleema

07/25/01 at 14:53:39

[slm]

You guys can cuntinue arguing and debating like civilized people in here. :)

and if there are problems drop me or another moderator and email.

thank you

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Jenna

07/25/01 at 17:25:09

Wa'alaikum As'salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh!

I promise to stay civilized lol :)

Subhan'Allah I was 14 when I got Pregnant with my son, and as far as education is concerned and learning about your self, Subhan'Allah, its like this (at least to me),

I have always been in home-school all my life, thats the way I did it when I got married and finished it that way. Alhumdulilah.

And as far as I am concerned about "finidng who you are" its simple. I am a Muslim Women placed on this earth to worship and serve Allah ta'aala mean while Allah Ta'aala gives us happiness and pleasure in this life by allowing us to get married and have children. We do the best we can as far as obeying Allah ta'aala and Insha'Allah in the end we hope and pray to get Ever-Lasting Paradise!Allah huma Ameen!!

I believe in young marriages and I also belive that girls (are Women when they get their period) are "Biologically" able to have children. But as far being able to take care of children; that part is up to the parent. How are you going to raise your daughter? Everyone has that right to raise their children however they please, but the only way for a girl to be able to marry young and take care of children etc. is however the parent(s) decide to raise her.

And as far as how many children to have, that is up to Allah ta'aala I believe the best thing is du'aa. This one(at least it was to us) was a very nice one

"Oh Allah please give us children whenever the time is right. Only you know Allah"

Because really the decision is up to Allah no matter how we try to pervent it or make it happen, it all comes from Allah.

The choice is up to you.
Wa'Allahu Alim
Jenna :) :)
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Anik

07/25/01 at 19:32:01

A.A.

I don't think there is a "right" time to have babies just becaus eit has so many different variables, and since it is not Islamically stated exactly when (other then when you are after puberty and wajib)

it depends on how they personally view marriage, physiology, responsibilities, health, age income, family size, choice, religious stability (in self and in society), etc...

the point is, the right time is when the capable, competant individual follows Islamic conditions and then whenever they think is right for them and their child, then we cannot judge, right? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Ayla_A

07/26/01 at 17:58:08

[slm]

I am writing in this thread because it gets alot of action.

My question is to the women that are married...

When you decided to have children, how did you persuade your husband that it was the right time to do it. Or can I ask did any of you just decide to "make it happen" so to speak without really discussing it with your husband.

I feel that my husband is very very nervous about having children, and wants to be very well off financially before we even start to have children. We have been married for over 3 years now. Personally I don't think a couple is ever financially ready because you spend what you earn so to speak, but if a baby comes, you make due with what you have...I hope this makes sense:)

I am tired of waiting so I just wanted to hear some of the other ladies opinions on this subject...

[wlm]
Ayla

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Jenna

07/26/01 at 19:25:26

Wa'alaikum As'salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

Dear Ayla:

Well me and my husband just put it in Allahs hands because He is the All Knower and All Wise. He knew the best time for us to have kids and Alhumdulilah. We believed no matter how much you try to make it happen or prevent, if Allah Subhan'wa Ta'aala wants it to happen it will happen.

"Oh Allah please give us children whenever the time is right. Only you know Allah" (that is the Du'aa we made).

Wa'Allahu Alim
Your Sis In Islam,
Jenna:) :)
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
LizZzaLo

07/26/01 at 22:15:17

To say that the right time for a female to have a child is when she is capable...as in ..when she starts menstruating..is absolutely absurd...first of all...most girls start menstruating at the age of 11-12 at which time...their bodies are not even close enough to being developed for a pregnancy...besides at that age...they are still kids..no matter how much maturity they may have acquired...kids should not be having kids!!

i dont mean to come off as offensive or anything..i was just appalled by some of the comments in the "is there a right time to have babies part I"

it just sickens me to my stomach to think of anyone that young being married or having children...how sad :(

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
meraj

07/26/01 at 22:23:49

slm,

sorry to interrupt... just wanted to welcome you aboard and hope ya have a great stay, harisa :) if you're up to it, feel free to give an intro in the bebzi stand inshallah :)

- the welcoming wagon ;-D

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Adi28

07/26/01 at 22:33:30

[quote] girls start menstruating at the age of 11-12 at which time...their bodies are not even close enough to being developed for a pregnancy...besides at that age...they are still kids..no matter how much maturity they may have acquired...kids should not be having kids!!

[/quote]
yes i totally agree with you girls are still kids at 12-13..and its proven fact that their bodies are not developed enough for pregnacy..i don't care if they can handle the resposibilty of having kids emotionally, but phisically its fact that their bodies can handle the pregnancy. unless their some kind of superwoman that bodies mature at a much higher rate than normal...

salaams,
Adi
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Jenna

07/27/01 at 03:04:30

Wa'alaikum As'salaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

Subhan'Allah I guess you guys dont really watch TV or know about the world. Girls are built different. You can have a 12 y/o who is 80 pounds with pigtails (which nowadays its rare) or you can have a 12 y/o who is 120 pounds, developed and already sexualy active. Many Many Many Girls today are having children. So many shows and whatnot are titled Help! My 12 y/o is pregnant! (This is the Kaffir socitey Allah forbid if it is happening in our Muslim Community).Physically so many girls today (at least) are ready to have children and Many girls today are not. I am speaking of the ones who are ready. Like myself when I was that age. Not every girl is the same as far as a Physical Body is concerned

Wa'Allahu Alim

U.S. Teenage Pregnancy Statistics

Women Aged 14 or Less*
year FemalePop. Births.legal abortions. Estimated Misscarriages.total pregnancys
1972 2,093 12,082 u u u
1973 2,094 12,861 11,630 3,740 28,230
1974 2,086 12,529 13,420 3,850 29,800
1975 2,118 12,642 15,260 4,050 31,950
1976 2,080 11,928 15,820 3,960 31,710
1977 2,048 11,455 15,650 3,860 30,970
1978 2,020 10,772 15,110 3,670 29,550
1979 1,944 10,699 16,220 3,760 30,680
1980 1,834 10,169 15,340 3,570 29,080
1981 1,787 9,632 15,240 3,450 28,320
1982 1,748 9,773 14,590 3,410 27,770
1983 1,781 9,752 16,350 3,590 29,690
1984 1,819 9,965 16,920 3,690 30,570
1985 1,853 10,220 16,970 3,740 30,930
1986 1,706 10,176 15,690 3,600 29,470
1987 1,613 10,311 14,270 3,490 28,070
1988 1,573 10,588 13,650 3,480 27,720
1989 1,608 11,486 12,750 3,570 27,810
1990 1,593 11,657 12,580 3,590 27,830
1991 1,661 12,014 12,270 3,630 27,910
1992 1,679 12,220 12,830 3,730 28,780
1993 1,735 12,554 12,450 3,760 28,760
1994 1,828 12,901 12,150 3,800 28,850
1995 1,829 12,242 10,870 3,540 26,650
1996 1,865 11,148 10,410 3,270 24,830
1997 1,864 10,121 9,590 2,980 22,690

http://prochoice.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agi-usa.org%2Fpubs%2Fteen_preg_sr_0699.html

Subhan'Allah I do not mean that ALL girls are ready, I meant the ones that are ready. I do not understand hwo it can be sickning to some people if the girl is ready. Lailaha illAllah!

May Allah protect us Ameen!!
Jenna

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
amatullah

07/27/01 at 14:40:11

Bismillah and salam,

sister jannah you said

"i can't really understand why muslims keep going backwards...what are we going to do next sit in our houses and expect education to come to us like revelation from the sky?? while the rest of the world zooms ahead of us in education and technology using it for filth and oppression throughout the world, the muslims become the most ignorant, most traumatized, most uneducated illiterate population in the world why can't we be like real muslims and take what is good from what we learn and use our islamic perspective and make our own discoveries and theories. instead we debate about whether or not a woman should be "educated" what use will it be to raising children pathetic.............. "

I am watching a series video by shaikh zanadani may Allah yefta7 3alayh. I was floored at some of the information just to introduce the topic which is iman. Sub7an Allah Allah send us the message when we are listening and watching. I kept thinking about that quote you said and progress and the state of the ummah. Then the shaikh makes a brilliant analysis wala nuzaki 3ala Allahi a7ad. He saying "Arabs were at the weakest military condition ever. They ran away and left their ka'ba to ibra and ran to the mountains and they said the house has a rab (a god) to protect it. Meanwhile ibra was no more than a representative of the 7abasha military. Al7abasha itself was not a duwaila (very small country) representing one of many that fall under the Roman rule at the time. So they ran off from a part of a part of part.

In that year the prophet saws was born.

he was sent the message in 40 years and died 23 years after that re7amahu Allah.

That year, from the same place we were talking about earlier(makka) two islamic military expeditions (jaish) left one to Kisra and they broke him, and one to Qaysar and made him fall short as well. They didn't go to a part, but they headed straight to the root of power.
What happened? was it technological improvements? increase in production? NO it was only the iman. it bears fruit and those were some of its traces.

Allah's promise is the truth. What he promises will be insha'Allah. and the islamic history is a witness to this fact. What we saw happen there is when faith/iman is realized in an ummah or a part of it even, Allah promises them the power, the brotherhood, the victory, the ability to do things (tamkeen), the provision, the fat7 3atheem!!! And when it non-existing or very weak, we are promised the humilation, ignorance, the fasad, the oppression, and the enemies will be in charge."

So to believe in Allah and want to spread islam insha'Allah is not only through something you go and study to be able to do good for islam, But to believe Allah's promise, and work towards that, stengthening our faith, gaining knowledge that will do that. Might be alot more effective to change things than a uni paper. IF we are not seeing the fruit of our iman, even though more muslims (men and women)than ever are getting uni. degrees etc., then there must be something wrong with what we are doing. Perhaps that is not the best way to be able to be effective in the spread of Islam. NOt to say it is wrong or unneccesary.

The problem is not whether women should be educated or not. I think we can safely say most muslims in north america today will agree we should be. But look at this hadeeth qudsi (well the meaning of it is) that the superiority of the Quran over other types of knowledge is like the superiority of Me (Allah) over my creations.

As muslims we need to teach our kids to get deep into deen first. Now we find dunya knowledge and lusts in our hearts and the minimum of deen only in our hands, ever so readily to drop it when something else needs to be carried for dunay like finals etc.

And baraka Allah feek sister who mentioned how the teens are sexually active anyhow more than not, so perhaps it is better to address this in a muslim way through marriages, fasting, etc. instead of turning a blind eye to their needs.

Also last night there was i3tikaf in masjid and many men did mini dars. The one brother made a distinction in arabic we say a student is talib al3ilm, He said why not daris al3ilm? the difference between talib(talab=seek) al3ilm and daris(daras=study) al3ilm. the emphasis is on seeking it out, not studying. If you read quran, you get your reward, If you read quran and have ta3ta3a, having problems in reading it and learning, you get two rewards, that was the meaning of one hadeeth. Just 2 points of interst!

Hope this made sense?!

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Kathy

07/28/01 at 06:09:23

[quote]
My question is to the women that are married...

When you decided to have children, how did you persuade your husband that it was the right time to do it. Or can I ask did any of you just decide to "make it happen" so to speak without really discussing it with your husband.
[/quote]

slm

This is one of the many areas I was wrong and Allah swt knew better than me.

I was always afraid to have children- for many reasons- and mentally convinced myself I would remain childless. Also a doctor told me that I would not be able to carry full term. I would be able to get pregnant- but the baby would not be able to form completely. Which I was glad to know the decision was not mine to make.

My husband was aware of this before we married. He was accepting of this. At the time we had no insurance, less money, and were about to be evicted (due to the landlord selling the home)

Of course- this is when I got pregnant, masha Allah!

Both of us were pretty surprised to say the least!

I was scared, worried, and my husband did not say much- who knows what turmoil he was going thru!

Well the doc was wrong and my son was 10 1/2 lbs at birth!

Alhumduliiiah all went well- everything worked out! Apparently I am a natural mom! I absolutely love it!

So- if we waited for our home, finances, or even me to be ready- I don't think we ever would have been.

Allah swt knew best!

ps) many nights I would wake up and find my hubby reading the baby books...

NS
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Lisha

07/28/01 at 08:00:53

[quote]Also a doctor told me that I would not be able to carry full term. I would be able to get pregnant- but the baby would not be able to form completely. ....

Well the doc was wrong and my son was 10 1/2 lbs at birth!
Alhumduliiiah all went well- everything worked out! Â Apparently I am a natural mom! I absolutely love it!

Allah swt knew best!

ps) many nights I would wake up and find my hubby reading the baby books...[/quote]slm,
Alhamdulillah:)
i luv it when things like this happen;)

oh, And i think ppl shouldn't look at their income b4 planning 4 kids. money cums and go's, if u really want kids Sr, then tell ur hubby how u feel:)

Take care,
w'salaam

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Barr

07/28/01 at 08:34:18

Assalamu'alaikum...

[quote]it just sickens me to my stomach to think of anyone that young being married or having children[/quote]

Hmmm... Just my thoughts... Just abt a generation or 2 ago (depends on which part of the world you're from), it's the norm that women marry and bear children in their early teens. But now, the general Western society would rather that teens be sexually active and have children irresponsibly than be in the sanctity of marriage and bear and raise children, it seems....

And about 1400 years ago... Aishah (r.a.)got married to the Prophet when she was about 10 years old, though her wedding was when she was about 14...

So, is it social conditioning that makes us think what is permissable
and what is not, what is the right level of maturity and what is not?
Or is there a general consensus and common correlation of age and maturity to marry across all culture and times? Allahu A'lam....

To me, Allah has set down a general rule, that trancends and is applicable to all times ie. that it is permissable (though not obligatory) for a girl, once she has reached puberty to marry. But when, she finally decides to get married, is influenced by her own maturity, education, capability, upbringing and social norms, which I think play a big role in developing the kind of person she is. And one last big factor... marriage and having children are matters decreed. We put in the effort to have and shape a good family life... but at the end of the day... Allahu a'lam.

Wassalam :-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Barr

07/28/01 at 09:27:40

Assalamu'alaikum... AGAIN!

Sorry... it's me... again :-)

[quote]So to believe in Allah and want to spread islam insha'Allah is not only through something you go and study to be able to do good for islam, But to believe Allah's promise, and work towards that, stengthening our faith, gaining knowledge that will do that. Might be alot more effective to change things than a uni paper. [/quote]

MashaAllah :) I agree wholeheartedly.... At the end of the day (hmmm, seems to use this phrase a LOT of times!) Success would only be given when we deserve it... but when that sucess would come... well, allahua'lam... for we would be judged by our efforts and not by the results that we produce. And like in the seerah, a lot of efforts are put on strategies for Fathul Makkah (Opening/ Liberation of Makkah) to be a reality.

I think what Sis Jannah meant is that what Muslims have probably become now, is that we seem to concentrate less on these strategies instead.

And I would agree that the reality of Muslims in universities, is that we have yet to see the more apparent and visible fruits... as those fruits shown during the Golden Age of Islam.

I'm not trying to be defensive or apologetic with our state... but the khalifah ceased from existence in 1923, and have long disintergrated before that. Yet, efforts to destroy it begun about 1330 years before that, when the da'wah is no longer sirr (in secrecy) and it took those enemies of Islam a heck of a lot of time to build their strategies and implement it. And here we are trying to undo all that and build up again, what is now... dust.

So, what is the strategy now?

What do we do with these Muslims in these Universities? What do we do when we are already in the system? How do we introduce and help build iman in their and our hearts? What is our next course of action so that Fathul Makkah is repeated and spread to the whole world?

A degree would just be a degree if that is how we see it... If we don't expand our roles to be more than the ordinary undergrad, the ordinary employee, the ordinary man next door, the ordinary "Muslim" ... then, that's what we'll become... and we'll probably be harping on the same issues again and again abt women and marriage, women and education, women and work.

InshaAllah, for those of us whom Allah has given guidance to raise our children Islamically, let us all strive to be as such mothers... Planting iman and Islam in our childrens hearts while they are still in our wombs, and mould their hearts and minds to be like those who came before us who uphold the message.

But getting back to reality... the dynamics are so vast and ever so volatile... the question is... how do we make best of what we already have in our hands.

But of course, the degree is not everything - a for all and end all. It takes a lot more to change our state.

May Allah give us strength upon strength, taqwa upon taqwa...
a soldier in the daytime, a rahib at night.

I hope I make sense....
Wallahua'lam :-)
Take care, all

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
LizZzaLo

07/28/01 at 22:02:18

sorry barr but i dont feel as if im being influenced by the western society...

when i said it sickens me to my stomach to think of someone being that young and having children..i was just speaking from personal experience...i dont know any 12-13 year olds that would be physically, mentally, and emotionally ready to have kids :)

so u see when i think of 12-13 year olds..all i see is these innocent looking kids...thats right..kids..and thats what makes me sick..to think that a kid would have a kid blaah

besides the first 12-13 years is nowhere near enough time to gain enough knowledge and wisdom...to be ready to enter motherhood...and even though some may feel like they are...all they are is confused children...how sad...children shouldnt be raising children

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Adi28

07/28/01 at 22:31:54

[quote]
i dont know any 12-13 year olds that would be physically, mentally, and emotionally ready to have kids :)

think that a kid would have a kid blaah

besides the first 12-13 years is nowhere near enough time to gain enough knowledge and wisdom...to be ready to enter motherhood...[/quote]

aymen to that sista!!

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
kiwi25

07/29/01 at 02:54:43

salam,

isnt "aymen" which is actually spelled "amen" a christian term?

personnaly i dont think we should be at each others throuts saying " too young, too right, too old", its all about the indivisual, if they want to have kids by the age 12, then so be it, inshallah Allah will help them with eevrything, and notice how i dont say her, i say them, because the islamic way is that both parents raise the child.

think about it this way: isnt it better to be a married muslimah at 12 or 13 with a child and her husband who is inshallah somewhat financially secure, then a 12 or 13 year old child nonmuslim and unmarried with no money to support your child and give it to the orphange:(...?

wasalam
nouha:)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
LizZzaLo

07/29/01 at 13:33:08

kiwi...

im not in support of 12-13 year olds having kids out of marriage either.....

but since u asked that question..yes ofcourse it would be better to have the child in marriage than out of wedlock...not that it makes it right :)

what im saying is...12-13 year olds shouldnt be having kids period...marriage or no marriage

and thats just my opinion ..im entitled to it..as you are to yours

have a nice day

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
eleanor

07/29/01 at 13:38:12

slm

then why do girls get their period at around this age? Why do they start ovulating? Give Allah a break here! do you think it's just coincidence? You know there's a reason for everything even if we don't understand it. If Allah didn't want young girls to have babies then they wouldn't ovulate till they're 18 or so. But that's not the way it is.

I'm not saying 12-13 year olds should get married and have babies. But 12-13 year olds *are* physically cabable of getting pregnant and bearing the child.

wasalaam
eleanor

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Adi28

07/29/01 at 22:43:38

[quote]salam,

isnt "aymen" which is actually spelled "amen" a christian term?

throuts
[/quote]

salaams,

first of aymen/amen...their alot of difffernt ways to spell it and second aymen is just a phrase and i wasn't basing it off the "christians" its just what popped into my head at the time. but anyways just because you get your period at 12-14 dosen't mean that you should go out get married and have babies.
and thats MY opinion
salaams
Adi

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
LizZzaLo

07/29/01 at 16:03:46

getting your period doesnt mean u r ready to have children...when a girl starts menstruating...her body is starting to develop...and it takes time for the process to complete...so just because she is ovulating and getting her period doesnt mean oh shes ready....that is the beginning of the development into womanhood alrighty then

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

07/29/01 at 17:21:47

assalaamu alaikum,

[quote]then why do girls get their period at around this age? Why do they start ovulating? Give Allah a break here! do you think it's just coincidence?[/quote]

actually there was a documentary/news item about this. what they said was the 100 years ago, girls did not menstruate as early as they do now. the average age of menstruation for girls has gotten younger and younger because of the change in diet that has occured. so many of our foods are now supplemented with extra vitamins and minerals, so the richer diet that is available now has made our bodies change as well. thats from the program.

my personal addition ;) even if girls menstruate at that age doesn't mean that they are even physically ready to have children. at that age, even if you have your period, your breasts have only begun to develop and you pelvic bones have not fully widened to accomodate a healthy pregnancy.

also, statistics about 12 year olds being sexually active in this society has more to do with being bombarded with sexual images and misguided teachings rather than readiness for marriage or motherhood. my two (or three ;) ) cents.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Saleema

07/29/01 at 19:36:00

[slm]

It's ok to argue in a constructive way, but don't get personal
with it please. I sensed some tension in a few posts. Let's
keep this a healthy discussion. Thank you. :)

Girls are staring to get their periods as young as 8 yrs old
and it has to do with our diet. I will post up the study.

These little girls are playing with their dolls and starting to
wear bras and ovulating. It's psychologically damaging, their
mind aren't ready but their bodies are maturing fast.

It might take me a few days to post the study.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/30/01 at 06:53:54

slm
What age to have babies?
We can all answer from our minds. As all our minds are different all the conclusions will be different.
Does Islam state an age for people to get married in years?
Answer is NO!
How does Islam state a girl has turned in to a women, the answer is puberty, unless she has a biological problem and hasn't reached it, then it is when she reaches what the ulimah call the age of the majority. Which is 15 for women and older for men.
Did Allah know about different women having periods at different ages at the time of revelation?
Answer is yes.
We know for a fact that in countries all over the world girls marry young. Even in Europe and America up until recently girls used to marry very young.
I advise people who disagree with young marriages to look up what ages female sahabi got married.
You will find they were very young.
You may look around and see people of that age group who you think will be unfit mothers, but the fact is you will see people of all ages who are unfit mothers.
The only reason why people delay marriages in the west is because of the laws.
I also advise you to check your own family and friends, ask them what ages they got married? And ask them if they see them selves as unfit mothers?
Remember the majority of people are not the majority of people in the west. The world has a lot more nations then the western nations. And in the majority of nations teenage Mothers are the norm.
The west calls the majority uneducated people who oppress them selves due to their uneducatedness, this is a blatant superiority complex that as no bases in reality.
People in the west delay marriage past when their bodies and minds demand attention from the opposite sex due to their belief that zina and pornography are legitimate ways to satisfy the instincts Allah has created us with. Why do some of us seem to think our women should delay marriage and behave like nuns, while they delay marriage trying to compete in delaying with western women who delay it?
The fact is, the instincts Allah has created us with need satisfying, if the body is not allowed to satisfy them in a Hallal way it will satisfy them in a harram way. That's why archaeological digs at convents unearth murdered babies. Even nuns are human and have needs. There are many books which talk about nuns getting pregnant and claiming they were raped by demons, they bury the babies alive when they are born.

To answer the question, "is there a right age to have babies", from Islam. We must first answer what is the wrong age. In the west there are loads of women who busy them selves so much in there carrier, that once they decide to get pregnant its too late. Their periods have stopped. They often get another woman's eggs, or use their husband's sperm in another women who they call a surrogate.
Is this lawful in Islam? No.
If you want dellel go to: http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/english.html
And click on book 11.
So the wrong age to have kids is when it is too late. Cause Islam does not allow you to have kids once you can't have kids any more, so any one who has left it to late will just have to grit their teeth and bare not having there own kids ever.
If that is the wrong age to have kids, that means clearly, every age other then the wrong age is the right age. So you girls are free to get married and have kids from the time Allah grants you puberty to when he decides for you to have menopause.
This is what Islam says, and it remains what Islam says even though the western feminists of this age might not like it.
If women are getting in to puberty younger it means Allah is allowing them to get married younger. In some countries that are very poorly feed, girls get married at 11.
Just because the westerners see some thing as bad, it does not mean it is bad. Who are they to set what age people should get married for the rest of humanity?
Where do kids shot each other in schools?
Where do kids work as prostitutes?
Where do kids get in to gang warfare?
Where do kids rape there own teachers? (two 13/14 boys did it in my school).
Where do kids rape girls in lessons at school ( it happened at a school near mine).
Where do kids kill there own teachers parents and siblings over small arguments?

I don't think it happens in countries where girls get married and have kids young?
So who are the unfit mothers?
Probably the ones who leave it to the last minute to start being a mother.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

07/30/01 at 08:27:42

assalaamu alaikum,

you know br. NewJehad, there is a middle ground between having getting married and having children as soon as you hit puberty and remaining unmarried and childless the rest of your life. lets not start thinking that it has to be one or the other. they is a path of moderation which is completely halal and permissible.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/30/01 at 09:11:36

slm
sis Sarah I am not saying there isn't, I am not even attacking spinsters. I am defending the majority.
the majority marry early. No one has any right to say it is wrong for a girl to get married as soon as she hits puberty, cause Allah has made it lawful. No human being has the right to forbid what Allah has made lawful.
My personal opinion on the issue, which I haven't said so far is that I think girls should be encouraged to get married as soon as they become women. If Allah grants me daughters I would get them married as soon as they hit puberty if they were O.K with that no matter how young she was. There is no reason for them to delay marriage, that will be them making Islam hard on them selves. Remember the west only made early marriage forbidden for them selves after they made zina lawful for them selves. And the Muslim countries who are know forbidding early marriage are making zina easier, by opening bars, clubs and mixed schools.
I think when girls start desiring men, they should be provided with a lawful means to exercise their desire, else the parents who prevent them from the lawful means, share the blame if the girl seeks other means.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

07/30/01 at 10:06:41

wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

[quote]Remember the west only made early marriage forbidden for them selves after they made zina lawful for them selves.[/quote]

While this is true for the non-muslims this is certainly not true for most muslim sisters who don't get married as soon as they hit puberty.

I understand and even agree with getting a man or a woman married young if they are showing SERIOUS AND MATURE interest in marriage even at a very young age. I agree and think it is vital for either a man or a woman (even if they are teenagers) who is having trouble protecting their chastity to get married before they do something haram.

I am definately not saying that there is anything wrong with getting married young under these circumstances. In fact, i'd encourage it. But to say that this is better in all cases is wrong. The majority of muslim in other countries do it this way because of culture not necessarily because of deen. An example is the Indian Subcontinent where muslim, hindu, buddist, christian girls all get married young because of the culture. Not deen. And you will find that in other now muslim countries, young marriages were the norm even before Islam... so it is just continuation of that culture.

but brother NewJehad, most muslims who understand their deen and love Allah swt (which I think is mandatory if you want to have a healthy islamic marriage and to be a good parent) have more self control than that, and if they do not, what is to say they will not do something haram while in marriage.

in addition, you are not taking into consideration that those who live in a non-muslim country have an additional responsibility... which is DAWAH and to build new Islamic Institutions in this non-muslim society. To accomplish these things it must be a priority for women and men. I'm thinking about MSA and ISNA and MYNA and all of these institution in North America that both brothers and sisters build and have been instrumental in building in preserving our deen in North America. So you have to take this into consideration.

Its not an either or situation. You can do both! but you don't have to everything at once. Do you know what I mean? Getting married young may be good in some situations but not in all.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
mango

07/30/01 at 10:08:45

Salam,

Jehad...i do understand your point of view, but you have to seriuosly think about it. I would say that I have changed so much since i was 12 (i'm 19 now). I think that humans go through the most drastic change in their lives throughout their teen years. Marraige is a major life decision..that i dont think a 12 year-old is ready to make. Sure little boys and little girls have "crushes" and very immature feelings for the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean that they are ready for marriage.
Marriage is a huge responsibility for both men and women. I don't think a 12 year-old girl rally knows what is best for her. (I'm sure some mature ones do, but i'm talking about the overwhelming majority.) Ofcourse what i'm saying is very subjective. My experience has been with girls raised in the United States.
For most girls, the bond they want to have with a man is NOT just physical, it's an emotional bond that they experience which takes a level of maturity.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/30/01 at 22:17:41

slm
Sister Sarah
The others who have been on here longer know what I think about Muslims settling down in Non-Muslim countries. If you wont to read what I said about that, look at the posts made by jehad and codliveroil, they are my old names.

It is true that the reason for early marriage in most of the world is to do with culture. As people of all religions in those parts of the world do it. It is also true that people of all religions have morals in those countries that people in the west have lost since they took up the religion of Materialism, and dumped what remains of what they call Christianity.
Just because some thing is culture does not mean it is wrong. Back home in our old countries, there are many practices that our families carried on after converting to Islam. Some good. Some bad. The bad ones are the ones that contradict with Islam.
Others have no harm in it. Early marriage is some thing that does not contradict with Islam but it contradicts with western feminism. It is true that not all unmarried people do zina. But it is also a fact that all humans desire companionship of the opposite sex after puberty. Whether they are Muslim or not.
So delaying marriage is just making things hard for us.

I don't think Muslims living in the west is a good idea. This is not the kind of place that a responsible person will want to bring up children. Institutions being set up to take over the job of the state are no substitute for a state.
The shake is a revert by the way.

Mango
People change all through their lives. I am older then you, and I changed a lot since I was 19. That is a non-stop thing.
It is true people in the west are raised differently to people in the rest of the world, but this effects every one, not just under 16's.
My mum got married as a teenager in Briton, some of you who have read my posts might disagree with this, but I don't think she has done such a bad job?
Any way, many people who are younger then 12 have zina and get pregnant here. They manage to take care of their kids on their own. If they can manage to take care of their kids with out a husband. A Muslim girl should be able to with the help of her husband.
Whatever age you are, people younger then you will always seem like kids. My grandmother and my aunt still see my dad as a kid and his got two grandchildren now.

[Modified by Admin]
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

07/30/01 at 12:19:51

wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

[quote]The others who have been on here longer know what I think about Muslims settling down in Non-Muslim countries.[/quote]

this is not a matter of what we think or don't think. as muslims in non-muslim societies, our main duty is dawah and to spread Islam. which is true for women and men.

[quote]Early marriage is some thing that does not contradict with Islam but it contradicts with western feminism. It is true that not all unmarried people do zina. But it is also a fact that all humans desire companionship of the opposite sex after puberty.[/quote]

and if someone desires this in a mature and responsible manner, even at age 12, absolutely do it! no one can say that is unislamic. but it does not have to be the rule for everyone. it is a personal preference.

[quote]"treat Briton like a toilet, do what you have to do then get out".[/quote]

that is an "interesting" way of speaking. depends what you are doing in Briton. if making money and living comfortably is your main objective, this is unacceptable. again if dawah and the spread of islam is a major priority, no need to treat Briton like a toilet. the whole world is made a place of worship and Briton or North America are not exceptions. the prophet may peace and blessings be upon him did not stay in medinah and ignore mecca cuz medina had embraced islam and mecca had not. rather he negotiated peacefully when the situation allowed and fought battles when that was needed too.

[quote]This is not the kind of place that a responsible person will want to bring up children. Institutions being set up to take over the job of the state are no substitute for a state. The shake is a revert by the way.[/quote]

depends on how you plan to raise your children. this is why you need institutions and Islamic Schools. these are building blocks do not take over the job of the state but the hope is that gradually with determination and much effort it will someday, inshallah, lead to the establishment of a state. the prophet pbuh did not establish an islamic state in one step. it was through many gradual steps. both men an women are required for the concerted effort.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
kiwi25

07/30/01 at 12:35:09

salam,

just a quick note, jehad u mentioned that the age of puberty for a girl is 15,
well that is not true for everybody, just to let you noe, maybe u made a mistake.....
wasalam nouha:)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/30/01 at 13:02:55

slm
nope. i said the age of the majority is 15. if a girls periods dont start by 15 she is still considered
a adult after it. same goes for males at another age, not sure what it is.
some women never gain periods.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Anonymous

07/30/01 at 14:40:10

Salaam

In Islam is there such a thing as a 'legal' age you are allowed to
marry?

Are 12 year ols allowed to marry in certain Islamic coutries?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/30/01 at 14:53:53

In Islam the age is determined by the state of the individual in question. not a arbituary age that is decided by politicions.
so for some people who develope fast it might be 12 for others 15. depends on the individuals own developement.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

07/30/01 at 21:57:23

assalaamu alaikum

[quote]In Islam the age is determined by the state of the individual in question. not a arbituary age that is decided by politicions ... depends on the individuals own developement.[/quote]

Mashallah! Subhanallah! AllahuAkbar!
We can agree after all! ;)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Saleema

07/30/01 at 17:46:38

Where do kids work as prostitutes?

All over the world. Same goes for other bad things that you pointed out in western countries. Happens in Muslim countries as well. Perhaps just not as much, but definately it is a problem.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Arsalan

07/30/01 at 20:46:09

[slm]
[quote]if a girls periods dont start by 15 she is still considered
a adult after it.[/quote]Really?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Anonymous

07/31/01 at 04:08:04

Some of you say that the right age to have a baby is when
your period starts because that's when you're considered an adult and can
marry. Some say it depends on the individual girl, and others after
you're 15.

Well what age is a boy considered a man? What age is he old enough to
get married and start a family?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/31/01 at 05:40:06

anon, with the man the same thing aplies. if he gains puberty, what ever his age he will be considered a Man. and can marry.
but if he hasnt gained puberty he will still be considered a man after a age. i can't remember what it is, i can find out though. some people have defects and never reach puberty.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
BrKhalid

07/31/01 at 06:11:24

Asalaamu Alaikum

[quote]if he gains puberty, what ever his age he will be considered a Man. and can marry[/quote]

Really? Can such a man marry?

With due respect Br jehad I think you've confused the ability to produce children with marriage.

Being able to do the former does not necessarily mean you can do the latter.
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

07/31/01 at 05:57:34

We have talked about this on women. The same rule applies to men. In the same way a girl becomes a women when her body has turned her in to a women, a man becomes a man when his body turns him in to one.
Age does not matter. Different people change at different ages.
When a Boy turns in to a man he is a man and has all the rights and responsibilities of Men.
Islam recognises that not all people go through that change so has set ages, called the age of the majority. If some ones body has not gone through the change by that age they will still be considered adult.
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Saleema

07/31/01 at 11:41:33

[slm]

Can i ask you a personal question jehad? You don't have to answer, u can simply ignore me. :) Are you married?

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Kathy

07/31/01 at 13:06:23

slm

Serious question-

How can you tell when a boy reaches puberty?

NS
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
tq

07/31/01 at 14:01:21

Assalamo elikuim

Isnt the requirement for man is to be able to provide for his wife and future family? There is a hadith about this also - may be someone can post it, which basically says that if a man is not financially able to marry(one of the requirement of marriage) then he should fast.

Wasalam
tq

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
kiwi25

07/31/01 at 17:14:47

salam,

i still dont understand why jehad your using the age 15 as a border between adulthood and childhood, it does not say this in islam, its just when you've reached puberty that you have reached adulthood in islam and puberty can be before 15 for a girl, right? and a boy does not exaclty always reaches puberty after girls do, he can reach puberty at age 15? and not 18 or 17, these age numbers of reaching pubrety is what the western sociity gave us, not islam. just to clarify.....

wasalam
nouha:)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Ayla_A

07/31/01 at 17:42:46

[slm]

My newest idea to through in this pot is the fact that boys have their nocturnal emmision (wet dream) at middle teens right, so in fact their bodies have developed to the stage where they are able to now produce children.

Do you think males are mature enough at this stage to be married, just because their bodies are ready? If this is the case then our children should be marrying very young....heck why even bother to let them finish high school,, their bodies are "ready" to have children

What do you think??

[wlm]
Ayla

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Mona

07/31/01 at 17:45:19

Assalamu alaikum,

[quote]i still dont understand why jehad your using the age 15 as a border between adulthood and childhood,[..][/quote]
Actually, br. Jehad is right. According to shari'a law, the age of obligation for a woman is when she reaches puberty or 15 years (according to lunar/hijri calender; ~ 364 days/year) , whichever comes first. Although usually the calculation of age is in lunar years, the fuqahaa' say that it is OK to do the calculation according to Gregorian calender ( ~365 days/year).

I will try to look up something to back this up. Basically I came to know this recently after attending some duroos on usool al-fiqh.

Wassalam
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Arsalan

07/31/01 at 19:21:29

[slm]
[quote] According to shari'a law, the age of obligation for a woman is when she reaches puberty or 15 years (according to lunar/hijri calender; [color=red]~ 364 days/year[/color]) , whichever comes first. [/quote]I think you meant to say ~ 354 days/year :)

I would like to see the evidence for the 15 years age limit, if you can find it insha Allah. Jazak Allahu khairan.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/01/01 at 05:52:41

slm

Salama no.

Kathy: there was a case in the time of the sahaba where a boy committed a crime. When he was tried he claimed he was a miner, the judge ordered that his cloths be lifted to cheek if he was a minor.

Tq: some people can’t afford to get married even when they reach 60, others can when they are younger. It depends on the person. Some people have rich parents so can, at whatever age.

Kiwi: the border between adulthood and childhood is puberty. The problem is, not all people go through it.
We don’t believe in 60 year old children. So in the absence of puberty 15 the age a girl will be regarded as a women.
The same rule applies for men. If they go though puberty they will be regarded as men, in its absence an age has been assigned for them. I know what it is, but am not sure so wont right it here, but its in the teens after 15.

Ayla_A: Some maybe mature enough others may not. Whether they are or not is irrelevant. If they have passed puberty, they are men and have all the rights and responsibilities of Men.
Some people carry on behaving like kids all their lives. Cause they have no reason to behave like adults. If they have got married they have a reason to act responsibly.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
BrKhalid

08/01/01 at 06:10:28

Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote] If they have passed puberty, they are men and have all the rights and responsibilities of Men.
[/quote]

Men yes but not necessarily husbands, there is a difference!!!

[quote] some people can’t afford to get married even when they reach 60, others can when they are younger. It depends on the person. Some people have rich parents so can, at whatever age
[/quote]

It is a husband's responsibility to maintain his wife not the responsibility of in laws. In my opinion if he can't maintain a wife he shouldn't be getting married. Allah knows best though.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/01/01 at 09:31:36

Potential Husbands.
If they propose to some one and she says yes they will be a husband.
And what do I think of a young male who gets married strait after puberty?
Best of luck to him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who am speak against some thing Allah has made lawful.
some old people make terrible husbands. Some young people might make great husbands?
Its up to the person what age he wants to get married.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
sarah

08/01/01 at 09:42:31

assalaamu alaikum,

[quote]Its up to the person what age he wants to get married.[/quote]

yup! true for male and female. right?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
jannah

08/01/01 at 09:49:46

[quote]If they propose to some one and she says yes they will be a husband. [/quote]

br khalid i think he's right on that one...:) he'll be a husband true jehad but the point though is what kind of a husband will he be at 13??? and will he be able to fulfill all of his islamic duties that young? and should he marry knowing he may not be able to fulfill them all?

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/01/01 at 10:03:10

Jannah I think it depends on the individual. I think a lot of people can. It’s just here we see people as kids until they reach 16, then they are adults. Cause here they have to be in school until they are 16, then it becomes legal for them to get married, or even join the army and get killed fighting for kufr and go to jahanum.
But the thing is, what it takes one person 16 years to become, some one else can do in 13 years.
A lot of people here live with their parents after marriage. If it’s ok for a 16 year old to do it, why not a 13 year old.
Loads of 13 year olds work here, often illegally, but they do work.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
jannah

08/01/01 at 11:39:01

Ok let's go with that.... let's say a 13 year old get's married... he's hit puberty right....so now he gets married and has kids... a 13 year old in this country can't work they have to get working papers and they can only work a limited number of hours.. 15 i think? so now on 15 hours a week at minimum wage, he can't get any decent kind of job yet, he has to support a wife and family... let's see at US$6.15 an hour that would be $92.25 a week thats $4797.00 a year ... well let's even be real generous like and say he makes double that --- 10 grand a year. That's well below the poverty line for even a SINGLE person...so..hmm either you pay the bills or you eat.... and what if you have kids... is it fair to put them through starvation and your wife?? basically what it comes down to is at 13 you cannot afford to get married and therefore you should fast according to the hadith...
but then u'll say you can get married with the help of several family members.. but remember we are living in the nuclear family(if that!) age.. not the extended family...so what you're saying really is the parents can support the young couple... so then i would say that it is not the husband that is fulfilling his islamic responsibilities but the parents...

so in a different time when an extended family was there and the world was different.. ie a young girl didn't have to take care of an entire household at 14 and the same as a young guy...they had their whole family around them, it would make sense to get married that early.. but nowadays... not very practical or sensible.. to me when i think of young marriages i think of college age!! and how successful that would be is probably dependent on the ppl involved...

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
LizZzaLo

08/01/01 at 11:51:05

good one Jannah :)~

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Asim

08/01/01 at 12:26:32

Assalaamu alaikum,

We often get caught in debates between what is ideal and what is practically feasible in the world today. We should think more along the lines of reducing the harm from the society in a moderate practical manner instead of going to the extremes. I believe early marriage is beneficial so any ideas on how to make it work ?

I was thinking... most parents pay for college. So why not encourage marriage while one is still in college with the promise that the parent will pay for the tuition if the husband cannot afford to do so. The husband may or may be at college, but the early marriage will allow both partners to grow together early in life and reduce the harm from the environment. Of course, this is assuming that one has found a suitable spouse by starting early and with the idea that tuition would not be a problem.

I think this is practical. What think?

Wasalaam.
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
amatullah

08/01/01 at 12:41:21

Bismillah and salam,

Brother Asim i agree with you. I think one of the major benefits of marrying young is that you haven't so much formulated your opinons so rigidly, and is so set in your ways yet. You grow together and experience things together and your way of thinking and living becomes more similar which makes things easier. You are more romantic and willing to try new ways of life and more willing to compromise since you more definately attached to each other more.

This may happen in marriages of older people, but more likely to happpen when they are married younger for the sake of Allah.

Just an interesting story...there is one muslim young man here in the university when he arrived to north america and he felt all this nudity, he really wanted to "yasta3fif" and get married to protect himself. When he went back he talked to the parents, who refused totally saying when you have your degree we can discuss this. This young man got so sick and surgeries and his father came for a short time here, he lost money on the ticket and he had to go back soon or he would lose his job and it just made me think sub7an Allah if they let him get married and take part time and work part time, and they would help a little, they would be in more peace of mind that someone is at his side and the money would have gone towards him making a family.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/01/01 at 13:16:00

Jannah there aren't many people who are completely independent when they get married. What you said might apply to a revert boy in the west who was dumped by his family, but not to people in general.
Most parent support there kids studies long after they have reached adulthood as defined by kufr law. So I can't see a problem with the Man and his wife living with the man's parents after marriage. The thing about 13 year old boys is they don't remain 13 years old all their lives. So at first they have employment laws to worry about, but not all the time.
The fact is loads of people live with their parents after marriage. It's probably the majority.
Here it is still normal for people to live with the in-laws during the first few years of marriage. Even people who are loaded with Money live with parents.
It's not only for financial reasons.
Any way, if any of you don't want to get married to a 13 year old man, its up to you. But if a 13 year old man decides to get married, and some one excepts, wish him the best. Insahallah Allah will provide. He just needs to work hard for it.

Any way, I know of one young man, he is older now, but he was 17-18 then, he failed his A-levels so his parents got him married off to his cousin sister who was about 10 years older. If his cousin sister was supporting him, its charity for her. Doesn't mean he is sinful, if she is doing it voluntarily.
It is the man's duty to provide, if there is provision from other sources he is not guilty for not being able to provide.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
BrKhalid

08/03/01 at 17:06:02

Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

The Husband's Duties

1. A husband is responsible for the protection, happiness and maintenance of his wife.

He is responsible for the cost of her food, clothes and accommodation. Although she may have to cook, he has to buy her the raw materials and cooking and kitchen facilities, as may be required and applicable. He may also have to buy her two sets of clothes or more each year, providing the types of clothing suitable for the seasons. However, the number of sets of clothes and their quality depend on the husbands means and social requirements.

[color=Red]A wife is also entitled to a comfortable, independent accommodation, suitably furnished and provided with basic sanitation facilities. [/color]

She is not obliged to stay with the husband's parents or relatives as he is not obliged to live with hers

She is also entitled to enjoy herself with her husband in a relaxed atmosphere, free from the embarrassment caused by the presence of another adult in the household.

The cost of smoking or of a forbidden fruit or drink is not to be provided by the husband.

2. [color=Red]In addition to providing these material needs, a husband has to be kind, understanding and forgiving, and must treat his wife in a tender and loving manner.[/color] He not only should avoid hurting her but should bear with her if she ever does something disagreeable, so long as this clemency does not spoil her and she does not habitually behave out of bounds.

The Quran reads:
...and treat them [women] kindly. {IV,19}

And the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, says:

[Fear] God, [fear] God in the matter of women. They are weak partners, a trust from God with you; and they are made by the divine word permissible for you.

He also says:

Whoever of you whose wife behaves in a disagreeable manner and he responds by kindness and patience, God will give him rewards as much as Job will be given for his patience.

Patient behaviour was the practice of the Prophet, even when his wife dared to address him harshly. Once his mother-in-law- saw her daughter strike him with her fist on his noble chest. When the enraged mother -in-law began to reproach her daughter, the Prophet smilingly said, "Leave her alone; they do worse than that." And once Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, was invited to settle some misunderstanding between him and Aishah. The Prophet said to her, "Will you speak, or shall I speak?" Aisha said, "You speak, but do not say except the truth." Abu Bakr was so outraged that he immediately struck her severely, forcing her to run and seek protection behind the back of the Prophet. Abu Bakr said, "O you the enemy of herself! Does the Messenger of God say but the truth?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, we did not invite you for this [harsh dealing with Aishah], nor did we anticipate it."

[url]http://www.jannah.org/sisters/relations.html[/url]

[hr]

The above are only two duties of a husband which I have picked. The points that I wanted to stress I've highlighted in red.

[quote]Jannah there aren't many people who are completely independent when they get married[/quote]

Why not? It’s a duty that a husband *is* independent

[quote] So I can't see a problem with the Man and his wife living with the man's parents after marriage.[/quote]

This is culture. Islam says a husband has to provide independent accommodation according to his means.

[quote] The fact is loads of people live with their parents after marriage. It's probably the majority. Here it is still normal for people to live with the in-laws during the first few years of marriage. Even people who are loaded with Money live with parents.
It's not only for financial reasons.
[/quote]

Again this is culture, there is no Islamic requirement to stay with in laws.

Lets get this clear once and for all to avoid any confusion. Islam says a husband has to provide these things since these are the rights of the wife. If he is unable to do so……..

[color=Blue]Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to us:

O young men, those among you who can support a wife should marry, for it restrains eyes (from casting evil glances) and preserves one from immorality; but he who cannot afford It should observe fast for it is a means of controlling the sexual desire[Muslim][/color]

…..he should fast.

However, there is the option whereby the wife can voluntarily and temporarily give up her rights to assist her husband. For example she may be willing to stay with her in laws for a while whilst her husband finds them a place to live.

What we have to realise here though, is that *she* is the one forgoing her rights. A husband cannot automatically assume that she will forgo her rights. He has to *ask* her first.

So where does that leave us?

1. It is the husband's responsibility (and no one else's) to provide for his spouse

2. If he does not have the means to marry then he should fast as stated in the Hadith until such time that he is able to maintain a wife.

3. If the husband has some means but an insufficient amount to maintain her wife independently, he should ask his wife's permission if she is happy to forgo some of her rights.

Now that we've dealt with the responsibilities of a husband, lets look at the issue of marrying early.

[quote]And what do I think of a young male who gets married strait after puberty? [/quote]

As ever actions are judged by intentions.
In order to form an opinion, one has to look into the reasons for his marriage.
If he has no means to support his wife and is marrying to quell his desires, then the Hadith is very clear on what he should do.
Again if he has no means and is marrying at such a young age without being able to discharge his marital duties, then this isn't Islam and shows gross negligence on his part.

But I think the *main* reason why I personally don't think it’s a good idea for such a young man to get married is the second red passage that I highlighted above.

[quote]In addition to providing these material needs, a husband has to be kind, understanding and forgiving, and must treat his wife in a tender and loving manner[/quote]

Now tell me seriously, does a 13 year old boy have the emotional capability [even if he has the financial means] of dealing with a wife and all the complexities such a relationship brings.
Think back to when you were 13 and ask yourself whether you could have handled being married.

[quote]will he be able to fulfil all of his Islamic duties that young? and should he marry knowing he may not be able to fulfil them all?

Jannah I think it depends on the individual. I think a lot of people can[/quote]

Yes it does depend on the individual but Br jehad I would suggest you are grossly mistaken if you think a lot of 13 year old boys can handle all the rights and responsibilities of marriage as dictated by Islam and not culture.

Wasalaam
Br Khalid

PS I have no idea what's happenned to the formatting on this post!!!

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
AbdulBasir

08/03/01 at 17:27:38

[slm]
I have not been here that long in the Madina, but I like to keep an eye on history (especially since I got the 20,000 post :) ), so a question to the old folks here:

Is this thread the longest ever? Combined with part one, it is ten pages!

Perhaps the official Madina historian can comment...:)

Aight, sorry...back to the discussion...:)
[slm]

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
jannah

08/03/01 at 20:27:05

[wlm]

Well I checked with the Madina Museum and Historical Society... and their research concludes that there are other threads that are longer.. ie the embarassing moments threads which are spread across multiple forums and of course the pointless discussion thread and let's not forget the natural disaster of '01 that wiped out the brother's sports thread that had over 200 posts...
Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Saleema

08/04/01 at 20:40:02

[slm]

"Time" magazine:

"Teens before their time"--10/30/00

www.time.com

You may check thier archives on line but you have to pay a fee. Or you can go to your local library and read it there.

[wlm]
Saleema

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Sonny

08/05/01 at 13:43:25

=:) O.k. O.k, Finally getting around to the topic taking up most everyones time here...I should have known that if New Jehad was on top of things over here, it would be a lively and interesting debate! =:) Well, I had my first at 11, my second at 15, my third at 17, my forth at 24, and on and on it went! I might have been married young, if my father had allowed it...but as it stood my father (you may call him Lord Jim,) well, he refused from day one--and me and my boyfriend now 28 years later...still in the same boat with each other, and, although I went ahead and got married, and divorsed, later on- as did he, well, between us and our two families, cousins, sisters, brothers, aunts/uncles, friends ect, you name it--we managed to provide for all of the kids--23 of them! :D All that I have left to feel for this man is lot's of love, respect, and admiration~ And I also feel this is true of the many individuals that got involved in helping us raise our kids...but, yes, 11 is too young, 41 is probably too old, BUT I just don't care about that, I love my kids, and I'm proud of them; I'm proud of their daddy, who, like me, is a great-grandparent, and I love the good people who all pulled together and are now a part of my circle of friends and life. I do not regret it--when the shows all over, that's the time to decide whether or not it was a good show...but so far this life is the best show happening! All I can think of doing is congratulating anyone who is getting with the program, wishing them lot's of sucsess--and all that good stuff. ;-) --if someone is in error here, they will not get spite from me! I will be all smiles for them :) So, me and Mel, well, Mel finished high school joined the army became a trucker got involved in teaching became a sheriff and :o gosh...just a lot to pay and provide for our family. I'm not saying there was no hardship...I'm saying it was hardship that was worth every minute of it..so when I find out that people are having kids, I don't care if their telling me they are married or not, I don't even care how old they are, young or old, I just congrat them and wish them the best in what will become for them, I'm sure, the greatest adventure of their life. I just thank God for my kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, and EVERYONE who's been there for me through it all. And hopefully, the stories not over yet. Anyhow, you go girls! The show must go on! =:) (Nothing heavy today--I warned you about this, um, senility?) =:) If you ask me about having babies, you can do no wrong in my book! Lot's of salaams, and love! ;) --Sonny =:)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/06/01 at 09:34:05

slm
sorry I couldn't reply to this earlier, I have some family stuff taking up my attention so only skimmed through it. This will apply to my replies in the future too.
BrKhalid
It is the duty of the husband to provide. If it's the women who provides out of her freewill or the husbands family, or any one else, and all parties are happy with it, there is no sin on the husband.
If the wife chooses to provide for her husband what she does is charity for her.
The one responsible for maintenance in Islam is the husband. This does not mean he is sinful if some one else is helping in the maintenance.
Not every thing in our culture is nothing to do with Islam. A lot of aspects of our culture are developed due to our deen. The extended family is some thing in our culture that is shared by non-Muslims. This concept is being dumped in the west. And some Muslims would like to follow suit.
The reason why Muslims are able to marry young is due to this. The fact that we all chip in and help each other.
So when a couple are too young to be able to afford their own house they live with the parents until they can, they keep the banks out of it. And at the same time when the parents become old they have their kids to look after them, keeping the old peoples homes out of it.
There is a lot of bad stuff in our culture, this is the religious actions of our ancestors before they became Muslim. But the extended family is not part of this, this concept is part of our humanity, it is shared by all cultures. It has only recently been dumped by the materialistic west, for reasons of profit.
The presence of the extended family is a hurdle in the way of banks making money from mortgages and old peoples homes making money from people dumping their aged parents.
It is only farrad for the Husband to provide his wife with her privet quarters, that other people need to ask he permission to enter. This can be provided in a house owned by the parents. He does not need to provide her with a whole house.
As long as the maintenance is met, throw hallal means, the boy is not sinful. Whether it is through his own sweet or kindness of others is irrelevant, so long as they are met.

The issue of whether or not a 13 year old boy can provide, is irrelevant, because we are not talking about a normal 13 year old boy.
The reason why most 13 year olds haven't got what it takes is most of them have not reached manhood. We are not talking about the most, we are talking about the ones who pass puberty and become men.
They have what it takes as they are men. We may all know young men who we feel are incompetent, but we know older people who are the same.
So age has nothing to do with it. If some one is competent he will make a great husband, no matter what his age. What matters is, is the man willing to do what it takes to meet his obligations?
There are many young boys who leave school before the law allows and work illegally, so it is possible for some one to earn his rizakh, no matter what his age.
It is possible for a boy, even at the age of 13 to do adult jobs, cause we are talking about a 13 year old who has become a man.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
BrKhalid

08/06/01 at 09:47:41

Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

Br jehad we'll just have to agree to disagree ;-)

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
NewJehad

08/06/01 at 09:58:37

smile. if every one aggreed this bourd would be bouring,, and i wont be on here.

Re: is there a right age to have babies?-- PART II
Barr

08/07/01 at 11:11:35

Assalamu'alaikum...

I think, what is permissable, may not apply in all situations.

It's permissable to eat halal chicken, but it would be zulm (wrong-doing? Translation?) to feed chunky chicken pieces to a 4 month old baby. But should there be accelerated growth on the baby's part, or, if the chicken pieces are meshed, then probably, the baby can swallow it, and nutrients absorbed.

Well, if it is conceivable, that those 20 somethings on this board have the maturity of 30 somethings. (well, in another place, and another time, I once thought this 32 year old brother was actually 50, by his mails!), why can't children as young as 13 have the maturity of those who's 18? One of my friend's son is 14, but I think he has the maturity of a sensible 18 year old. Too bad I don't have any daughters (yet). He'll make a good son-in-law, when he's older, inshaAllah... Oh well, looks like my daughter gotta settle for his 5 year old brother.... (err sorry, got sidetracked ...)

It's how we've been brought up... and it all depends on the context and conditions. What is generally permissable at one level doesn't make it all right when other conditions are applied.

Oh well, some think I'm eight... but hey, you gotta love me ;)

Allahu'alam
Wassalam :-)
"Love the young, Respect the old" - Hadith ;-D

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org