Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| An interesting question ... |
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| Arsalan |
| 07/30/01 at 22:38:25 |
| [slm] This is for the brothers: Say you walked into a grocery store to buy some groceries. You see a hijaabi sister, who you've seen around campus but have never talked to, working at one of the registers. You may even be in some classes together. Would you go through her check out lane or would you deliberately choose another one? In other words, would you try to avoid her? Why? or why not? |
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| meraj |
| 07/30/01 at 23:03:21 |
| slm, depends.. if she was at the 10 items or less express lane ;) well honestly i wouldnt intentionally try to avoid her... its kinda like the question of sayin salaam in another thread... liek sr. jannah said, saying salaam does not mean 'i want to marry you' :D if one can be mature about it and have proper adhab (ie, lowering the gaze) then i see nothing wrong with it. but i still would consider which lane had the shortest line first ;-D |
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| Anik |
| 07/30/01 at 23:30:12 |
| A.A. yeah exactly no sweat... in fact, wouldn't you rather go into a line to se a covered person rather than a line where you speak to an uncoverd person? there's another aspect of it I guess... but yeah, no sweat... I would go to the line which is the fastest... and if I was in her line, I would say salaam without hesitation... if she says something about seeing me on campus, maybe quip a line or two back done, get my goods and salaam, leave. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
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| BrKhalid |
| 07/31/01 at 04:01:50 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) I have to be honest and say my first reaction when I saw this question was: A brother doing some grocery shopping? ;) But anyway enough of that ;-) [quote] would you deliberately choose another one? [/quote] Probably yes [quote] Why?[/quote] Hmmm ..tough one .modesty, shyness, desire to avoid making contact. And btw just in case my comments are taken out of a context, the above is not a reflection on the sister but solely personal preferences. Certainly when I was younger, I seem to remember that whenever I used to see a Muslim sister I used to try and run a mile away!!! ;-) |
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| Barr |
| 07/31/01 at 10:11:02 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :) [quote]Certainly when I was younger, I seem to remember that whenever I used to see a Muslim sister I used to try and run a mile away!!! [/quote] *L* certainly reminded me of myself! I remembered one incident, when I was younger. I was in a bookshop and I saw this brother who was in the same school as me. And the minute I saw him, I tried to run and hide from him, and walked away by hiding behind people and ducking while walking behind the book shelves... and the book shelves were like chest high! Silly! People must think I'm a weird crazy spy. And yeah, smt like the cashier thing happened to me too looooooong time ago, and I coerced my mom to pay for the stuff instead, while I go hide. err... I think that's what I did. Y? refer to Br Khalid's reasons. Sorry for barging into a "male's only" conversation.. but I guess, this thing works both ways :-) |
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| jannah |
| 07/31/01 at 10:19:59 |
| slm, barr i think that's just silly :) how old were u 6??? remember when we were like ewwwwwwwwwwww boysss (well i guess we still are j/k :)) anyways if the situation was reversed i would go to the most available line and if it happenned to be his i wouldn't avoid it... i think if i worked there as a cashier and i saw ppl deliberately avoiding me i'd be hurt.. u get all these freaks buying whatever all day and night and ur fellow bro/sis in islam can't even say salam or nod even?? sheesh it's just sad... laboogie was telling us about a situation that happenned to her and none of the brothers even tried to help her or acknowledge her existence..! what's up with that.... then when u think about it u realize that if brothers can't even say salam to you or acknowledge the special bro/sis relationship in islam that you have how are they going to even help you in worse situations. it will just be alien to them.. so my advice to brothers who can't bring themselves to say salam.. at least nod or something! |
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| BrKhalid |
| 07/31/01 at 10:53:56 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]i think if i worked there as a cashier and i saw ppl deliberately avoiding me i'd be hurt.. u get all these freaks buying whatever all day and night and ur fellow bro/sis in islam can't even say salam or nod even??[/quote] Sr Jannah I can understand where you're coming from but from the psyche of a brother, not saying salaam and all the avoiding is in no way a comment on the sister and certainly not meant to cause offence. I think our sisters have to realise that some brothers are very bashful too (whether they would like to admit it or not) [where's that bashful smiley again?] ;-) If anything, from a reverse psychology viewpoint, the brother not approaching the sister is actually a sign of respect!!! Yeah I know its twisted!!! [quote] Sorry for barging into a "male's only" conversation.. but I guess, this thing works both ways [/quote] Would we ever accuse you of Barrging in? ;) [Well I thought it was funny] ;-) |
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| Nazia |
| 07/31/01 at 11:12:19 |
| [quote]anyways if the situation was reversed i would go to the most available line and if it happenned to be his i wouldn't avoid it... [/quote] I think for me (and prob most sisters) it would depend on what we were buying ;) Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 07/31/01 at 13:36:28 |
| [quote]. I think our sisters have to realise that some brothers are very bashful too (whether they would like to admit it or not) [where's that bashful smiley again?] ;-)[/quote] r they?????????????????????????? [quote]If anything, from a reverse psychology viewpoint, the brother not approaching the sister is actually a sign of respect!!! Yeah I know its twisted!!! [/quote] respect??????? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!! i think br is right in away, but i also think that giving salam is respect!!!!!! ur a muslim, so say salam and show ur 1!!!!!!! i think the bro should go to the line he would hav if the muslimah was not there!!!, and IF that was the same line as the muslimah, then say salam while lowering ur gaze :-) wa-salam |
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| explorer |
| 07/31/01 at 13:39:07 |
| [slm] Would a sister feel comfortable with a brother coming to her checkout point? Rather than saying brothers should go to their checkout, how many sisters here have [i]actually worked[/i] as cashiers? From my own experience I've noticed muslimahs don't feel comfortable serving someone they know (ask them why :) ) so if a brother avoids her it is to prevent a potential situation where she may feel uncomfortable. Ditto for the brother since he may be buying diapers ;-D |
| Re: An interesting question ... |
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| Arsalan |
| 07/31/01 at 15:08:34 |
| [slm] I need some more brothers to reply to this!! Asim, Arshad, Kashif, Zahir, AkbalKhan, Abdul Basir, Humble Muslim, and others? Where are y'all at? To clarify, this is a bit more than the "saying salam and pass by" situation. You may have a cart full of groceries, which means you will have to stay in front of that sister for a good 5 or 10 minutes, watching her scan the items. This also means that you will be paying cash and she will be handing change and the receipt back to you. This also means that she, out of professional guidelines, smile and say "hi" (or salam) and ask if you found everything you needed. I'm not saying any of this should influence your decision. (Or should it??) Just trying to emphasize that the situation entails a bit more than just saying salam! Jazakum Allaahu Khairan. Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| jannah |
| 07/31/01 at 14:33:12 |
| [wlm] okkkkkkkk we women were just leaving? just one thing to add....so where would you go then? a NON muslim woman's checkout line where all those things are then "OK"? or always look for a guy checkout line? |
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| bhaloo |
| 07/31/01 at 14:37:03 |
| slm Well Arsalan since you asked, I liked Br. Khalid's answers to this question, and its pretty much how I feel. |
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| Asim |
| 07/31/01 at 14:53:58 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Hmm, man I don't know, most probably I would go with the < 12 items line that I normally use. And if there happens to be a sister there, then so be it. Deliberately choose a different line? Hmm, maybe if I am buying something fishy ;) A while ago I did run into a sister cashier at a fast food restaurant. And it was the day after Eid! I had never seen her before and have never seen her since. But we went through the usual motions of ordering and paying with a few smiles (which I guess is standard procedure...) and that was it. However, that incident did turn a gloomy day brighter :) Yes, it does seem awkward but honestly I don't think I would run out of the restaurant if I see only a sister at the cashier! Wasalaam. |
| smart man.. |
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| princess |
| 07/31/01 at 15:38:37 |
| walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;-D [quote]Hmm, maybe if I am buying something fishy ;)[/quote] ahaahhah..;-D hahahahahah..;-D hahahah..;-D hahahahahhahah..;-D don't ask me why, but i found that really really funny :) ;-D :) [quote]However, that incident did turn a gloomy day brighter :) Yes, it does seem awkward but honestly I don't think I would run out of the restaurant if I see only a sister at the cashier![/quote] i think it'd be better if u went to a muslim..u can say salaam..build a bond even! i totally agree with asim..it's not like they have cooties :) and i'm sure THEY feel just as weird..we don't need to make it any weirder :) it won't kill u :) u don't have to talk to them even..just answer their, "did u find everything alright?" question as u would any other time :) silly questions :) feamanAllah ;-D |
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| salaam |
| 07/31/01 at 16:52:30 |
| [slm] I guess I would just have to agree with what Br.Khalid said, that it's a matter of personal modesty/shyness etc... For some reason I tend to feel this more towards another muslim. If you think about it, going to a cash register with a muslim or an non-muslim should have the same effect on your modestly level. And a Muslim would know how to treat another muslim (ie: Avoid touching hands when dealing with money). But, like I said, it's just a matter of personal comfort. And for saying salaam, it depends on the sister. I know some sisters (from previous posts on the board and friends) who would like Muslim brothers to say salaam to them, but then again, I know others (including me) who would prefer a bro not saying salaam, and not coming to my cash register (although, if he did come to my register, I wouldn't be bothered). [wlm] |
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| kiwi25 |
| 07/31/01 at 17:22:32 |
| salam, hehehe good point nazia ;) wasalam nouha:) |
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| Saleema |
| 07/31/01 at 19:05:54 |
| [slm] What's the big deal? And what's with the weird questions? There are more important things in life than running away from a sister working at a store. Sorry Arsalan. :) [wlm] Saleema |
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| Arsalan |
| 07/31/01 at 19:15:16 |
| [slm] This is not a trivial question at all! In fact, I think it's a very interesting question which strikes at the roots of many important Islamic aspects such as Hayaa', aadaab, taqwaa, 3adl, Hikmah and 3iffah. Aspects that are desperately lacking in our Ummah today. And since the scenario is not a hypothetical one, but rather a very realistic encounter that we may face every day in our lives, I don't think it is a weird, unusual or unheard-of query. I'll explain more when I post my reply insha Allah. But before I do that, I would like to see what some of the other brothers think about this ... Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 07/31/01 at 19:19:26 |
| salam, i agree with bro that has just written in just b4 me!!!!! neways, i always wonder whether its right or rong to salam sum 1, specially sum1 of the opp sex!!!!! i personaly think this is a very interesting topic!!!!!!! wa-salam |
| Re: An interesting question ... |
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| Saleema |
| 07/31/01 at 21:50:23 |
| [slm] Then let's just say that women should not work. period. because u will come across muslim women in all sorts of job positions. and why won't you pay the same respect to the non muslim women? are they not equally deserving of your respect? And if it's about haya, then where does the haya of the muslim men go when they are dealing with non muslim women at the cash register or in any other place? Do the non muslim women not entice muslim men, is it only muslim women that they are enticed by? If muslim men want to avoid muslim women out of respect and haya, then let's be honest and say that muslim women should not work. because even if you are being respectful to your sisters in islam by not saying salam to them or by staying away from them at the cash register, other men may not be as thoughtful as you and they will go up to them and do their grocery shopping--muslim men as well as non muslim men. So tell your beloved sisters in islam if you care about them that they should not put themselves in such positions where the muslim men will avoid them and where non muslim men should avoid them too but they don't know any better because obviously they are not muslims. don't send your daughters for grocery shopping either, or your mothers, or your wives, etc. Since some muslim men don't want to deal with muslim women, why would they allow their women to deal with muslim men or non muslim men in any situation at all, especially at the check out counter. My suggestion: go live in a muslim country where u won't see too many women working. PS- and no i do not work. [wlm] Saleema |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/01/01 at 04:03:02 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]I think our sisters have to realise that some brothers are very bashful too (whether they would like to admit it or not) r they??? [/quote] Yes *some* are ;-) [quote]Then let's just say that women should not work. period. because u will come across muslim women in all sorts of job positions. and why won't you pay the same respect to the non muslim women?[/quote] If I had the choice between two check out assistants and one was a Muslim woman an the other a non Muslim woman, I'd pick the non Muslim (all other things being equal) Its not about respecting one and disrespecting the other but natural modesty and shyness makes one inclined to be served by the non Muslim. I think the question that has to be asked is why are some brothers more shy in front of their Muslim sisters rather than non Muslim women. Just to make one point clear here though. Its not as if we're going to start some sort of deep and meaningful conversation with the non Muslim woman, but we'll just pay for our groceries and leave. No biggie. Now getting back to the crux of it, if there were no other checkouts, this is exactly what you would do with the Muslim sister. So why do we as brothers feel *more* shy to do a simple thing like pay for groceries when a fellow Muslim is involved? That's why I think this thread has some benefit. Because it helps to explain how we brothers think sometimes so the next time you find a brother ignoring you, you don't automatically assume he's disrespecting you. |
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| abc |
| 08/01/01 at 04:05:36 |
| Assalam alaikum A very interesting question indeed :) but of no consequence where I live (Kuwait) [quote]My suggestion: go live in a muslim country where u won't see too many women working. [/quote] There are as many, if not more, women workers as men here, especially as cashiers in supermarkets and other clerical jobs. And I've never seens a man trying to hide from a woman cashier or vice versa :) Well usually the men just go to the men ones and the women just go to the women ones. But if they're not available, then *shrug* , it doesnt matter..just take the shortest line, everyone wants to get out as soon as possible :) Wassalam |
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| haaris |
| 08/01/01 at 08:25:57 |
| [slm] Usually I go shopping with my wife. So, if there is a gal (sister or no) at the checkout, my wife can pay and if it's a guy (brother or no) I can. Heeeeyyyyyy everybody's happy!! Okay, I'm aware that you'll all see that as a cheat so here's what I'd do if I were on my own. Go to her checkout if it were the one with the shortest queue (making deliberate efforts neither to avoid nor make a beeline for her queue). Give my salaam in a modest way. Pay by card (no awkward fumbling with change etc). No chit chat (presumably if I've given the salaam in a sufficiently proper way she won't feel that she has to give any "did you enjoy your shopping experience here at ****? Is there owt else you need?" type speech). Pack up my stuff, give salaam and go home. However, I do understand what the brothers are saying about feeling more bashful around sisters than around non-muslims. It's just a personal thing: if I'm going to give someone respect and act accordingly, I'd rather do so towards a sister, who may appreciate it, rather than to a non-muslim who probably won't even notice. [slm] |
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| Barr |
| 08/01/01 at 09:27:45 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) >>Barging again!<< [quote]I think the question that has to be asked is why are some brothers more shy in front of their Muslim sisters rather than non Muslim women.[/quote] Well, these questions have been dangling on my mind for years but I didn't put much thought unto it... perhaps, they are quite related to the thread... Maybe, other sisters (or brothers) feel the same way, Allahu a'lam. I mean... Why do we feel more shy towards Muslim brothers than non-Muslim ones? Like, I don't think I'll sit beside a brother in a bus or in the train (or maybe think 30x before I finally decide to/ not to) but I'd probably do, if it's an old non-Muslim man. Why did I feel more shy towards teenage brothers when I was a teenager, and now... they don't like make me go all red if I pass by them... but the age thing shifted from Muslim teenagers to Muslim men? Why do I feel more shy towards men below 45 than men, above 45? Why are we more shy towards a single brother than a married brother? A sister I know, would be more shy towards Muslim brothers from her own culture more than other brothers of a different culture... I mean, she won't give a second thought asking for enquiries from a Malay brother, but would be so reluctant (and U know, who has got to do the asking, in the end!), if it's an Indo-Pak brother? But as for me, as long as they're Muslims, they have the same effect on me... Do some of you feel the way I do? Or is it just me? I don't know... maybe, these questions may extend the discussion (so, inshaALlah, Br Arsalan, I hope this will add value to the discussion) but I think there are probably a common denominator for all of these phenomena. I have my thoughts.. but they're not very well formulated at the moment... so, I'd rather listen what others have to say.... Hmmm.... Maybe, it's just fitrah. Wallahua'lam :-) |
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| *sofia* |
| 08/01/01 at 12:45:00 |
| Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah I guess it's not my place to say, seeing as I'm not a bro, but I agree with BrKhalid, too. Being in a non-muslim country, this comes up less often than in a muslim country. And being a male Muslim, it's probably more of an issue (unless you know the person), cuz u can't always tell if a guy is Muslim. I'd rather go the shortest female aisle (first choice being the muslim female, if you can tell). Otherwise, if all the cashiers are male, the shortest line, period. I guess you can't really be sure if a bro is muslim or not, unless you're staring at his name tag or he says salaam first. So as long as there's proper haya', etc, it's not a big whoop. I would say that's probably true for either the cashier or the customer. But Allahu'alim! Bottom line, just go to the same gender cashier, but if that's not available, take the quickest line. I'd say for me, personally, deliberation is first put on gender, then whether or not they're muslim. Is this a trick question? :-) |
| NS |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 08/01/01 at 12:52:20 |
| salam, i used to feel awkward around every and ne male that were older then me, but 1z that were the same age and younger, noo discomfort!!!!!!! I dunno y, so dont ask!!!!!!! neways, NOW i dont feel uncomfortable infront of ne males, as long as i am fully dressed and they r'nt staring!!!!!! wat i dont understand is that Y ppl feel uncomfortable with muslims and not with non muslims?????? coz a muslim would understand u and ur view point more better then a non muslims, u wouldnt hav to giv LONG explanations to a muslim, but u would to a non muslim!!!!!! wa-salam |
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| Arsalan |
| 08/01/01 at 15:13:57 |
| [slm] Ok, here's my two cents. ˙Some of this has already been said. ˙But I promised a reply of my own, so here it is. ˙You may differ if you like: First, I would like to say that as brothers, the foremost prioirity for us should be to *always* look for a cahier that is being run by a male employee. ˙That is, whenever you enter that Kroger or Wal Mart or Albertson's or whatever, and you are making your way to a checkout lane, stop. ˙Look around. ˙Find some male cashiers. ˙Then pick the one with the shortest line, and go there! Let me stop here for a moment. How many of us really do that yaa ikhwaan? ˙I know I don't. ˙But I think we should. ˙Why put ourselves in a situation where we will be tempted? ˙Why not take the safe way out? ˙Especially when we *do* have an alternative. ˙You see, I think that living in a non-Muslim society makes us so immune to these things that we don't even think about them any more. ˙We don't even notice them! ˙They become such trivial matters to us, whereas we don't know how heavy our acts will be in the Sight of Allah (swt). Moving along, if I see *no* men at any cashier, I have to go with a woman obviously, so I go to any cash register with the shortest line. Now the tough part. ˙What if there is no men at any register, but one lane has a sister working at it. ˙What would I do then? *I* would go in the sister's lane. ˙Because I feel not doing so shows a double-standard on our part (I'll explain this in a moment), and gives Shaytaan some more way into our minds. ˙When we are in front of a hijabi sister, we are reminded of Allah. ˙We watch how we act. ˙We lower our gaze. ˙We don't talk unnecessarily. ˙We do what we need to do and leave asap! ˙[i]We exercise taqwaa[/i] to the best of our capabilities. ˙ On the contrary, when we are in front of a non-Muslim woman, we feel at ease. ˙ Shaytaan makes us forget that Allah is watching us. ˙And we stand there, laugh, even flirt sometimes, talk unnecessarily, stare at her face ("she'll see me as rude if i look down .. can't do that ... bad da'wah!!!" ) and practically open the gates for the Shaytaan to enter into our hearts and offer him cake and coffee! ˙The shyness (hayaa) that we feel is a good thing, in general. ˙But in this case, we should use hikmah instead. ˙ In this case, we should use our hayaa as our shield from the Shaytaan. ˙If we feel shy to be in front of a sister, and no shyness in front of the non-Muslim, then run towards shyness, not away from it. ˙Because where there is no shyness, there is an opening for indecency. Now, let's reverse the situation for a moment. ˙Let's imagine a Muslim country, where most of the employees at any store are males. ˙Do women not come to shop at these stores? ˙They do. ˙And they have all rights to do so in times of need. ˙Where do they go to check out what they have bought? ˙To the men of course! ˙Is there any problem in us dealing with them and them dealing with us there? ˙No. ˙Is it ever an issue? ˙No! ˙Then why does it become an issue when we are the customers and the sister is the employee? ˙Is this not a double-standard? ˙Be fair! ˙Be equal. So what would I do if there is 3 check-out lanes at a grocery store: one occupied by a non-Muslim man, one by a non-Muslim woman and one by a sister. ˙Simple. ˙I go with the man, always. ˙"Kill the will," as Tauseef said brilliantly in one of his posts. ˙I won't take the chance of interacting with a female as long as I don't have to. ˙ If all of them are women, I go with the sister. ˙ I rest my case. Wassalamu alaikum. P.S. The bus example is a little different. ˙That involves sitting next to another person in a very tight situation. ˙I would only sit next to a man. ˙If I have to sit next to a female, I would stand up and ride the bus standing (very common on our campus, even when seats are empty, I don't know about other places). |
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| Saleema |
| 08/01/01 at 16:52:31 |
| [slm] I give you 4 stars Arsalan! :) Why do we feel more shy towards Muslim brothers than non-Muslim ones? I don't. They both have testostrone. [wlm] Mujahida ps. if u haven't noticed i have changed my profile. |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 08/01/01 at 17:31:06 |
| [slm] the way to cheat and not even have to face the whole situation is to go through the aisles where you check out everything yourself! hehe, they have them now at Giant Eagle and the Super K in our area. So alhamdulilah for that ;-D [wlm] Ruqayyah |
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| zia |
| 08/02/01 at 10:20:57 |
| salaams Maybe we feel more modest and bashful in front of muslim bros in comparison to non-muslims because we become more aware of our haya. I totally understand this because I would be more aware of my self in relation to a muslim bro than a non-muslim bro..like not making direct eye contact etc...Is that wrong though???? Should it not be the same for all men in general??? |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 08/02/01 at 12:39:05 |
[quote] Should it not be the same for all men in general??? [/quote] YES!!!!!!!! well, i feel the same infront of ALL!!! but i dunno!!!!!!! mayb sum ppl are more aware!!!!! i personally feel awkward wen its men that stare, specially muslims, coz they should know better salam |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/03/01 at 11:01:45 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]In this case, we should use our hayaa as our shield from the Shaytaan. If we feel shy to be in front of a sister, and no shyness in front of the non-Muslim, then run towards shyness, not away from it. Because where there is no shyness, there is an opening for indecency[/quote] I'd agree with all of that but with just one caveat. Its not a question of shyness and no shyness but being *more* shy in front of a muslim sister than a non muslim. Obviously the above implies that there is also shyness in front of the non muslim but to a *lesser* extent. Which brings me back to my question of why do some brothers feel *more* shy. May be its hard for those reading this to understand what I'm going on about, but those who have actually felt this feeling, will know that it is something which happens naturally. It is not something generated out of choice. [This is why I went to great lengths in explaining that it was not an active sign of disrespect towards the Muslim Sister] If that is the case and the feeling is generated naturally, should we really be going against our own natures? |
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| amal |
| 08/03/01 at 12:37:11 |
| Assalamu alaykum, [quote] If that is the case and the feeling is generated naturally, should we really be going against our own natures? [/quote] hmm...i'm assuming that you're talking about "fitrah" here and if indeed we always act out of fitrah then wouldn't everyone believe in Allah and be muslim? After all that's the fitrah that we're born with according to Islam. Instead,we are influenced by what our parents,teachers, and other members of society teach us.We take cues from our environment which we then internalize and that's how we build our belief system.That's why Allah[swt] in the Qur'an COMMANDS us to ponder,think,reflect upon things and not just blindly immitate others even if they are our parents or ancestors. Ok :) i went off on a tangent...BUUUT!...I DO think that almost everything we do has a BELIEF behind it. Sometimes the belief is so deep in our subconscious that it's difficult to discern. So the question now becomes: Why do brothers BELIEVE that they are more shy around MUSLIM sisters than non-muslim women when the reality is that they're both women and the muslim sister is more likely to remind them of Allah [swt]? After that you can decide if the behaviour is something you want to cultivate or not. |
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| meraj |
| 08/04/01 at 06:11:05 |
| slm, i agree with br. arsalan.. it makes sense.. first find a male cashier if one is there, otherwise go with the sister as the second choice. and of course, whichever is the shorter line too ;-D |
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| zamzam |
| 08/04/01 at 07:31:05 |
| [center][color=Green][slm] [quote] Say you walked into a grocery store to buy some groceries. You see a hijaabi sister, who you've seen around campus but have never talked to, working at one of the registers. You may even be in some classes together. Would you go through her check out lane or would you deliberately choose another one? In other words, would you try to avoid her? Why? or why not? [/quote] Well brothers ('n' sisters ;) ), the original question seems to say you know this sister so much so that you may have taken classes together. C'mon do you avoid some one you know this close. And here the reason being -- she is a hijabi sister? How on earth ? Well if the sister were someone I knew not at all - having never seen before - I guess to follow Arsalan's advice is the thing to go for. But IGNORING/AVOIDING someone muslim or non-muslim, sister or brother, hijabi or un-hijabi you have seen before --- I guess is strange and plain disrespect. You are not understandable when you say you were really showing respect? Well maybe I am quite out of synch w/ the thinking of many ppl over here... ??? [wlm] [/color] [/center] Zamzam |
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| explorer |
| 08/05/01 at 04:51:05 |
| [slm] woah this really interesting. You guys are really venturing deep into the psyche of brothers, I'm starting to feel exposed :) Myself and other brothers don't believe we are more shy, but ARE more shy. As BrKhalid said its a feeling that happens naturally. Why? Well, I think as mentioned above, it is becasue the muslim sister reminds us of Allah and deep down of whom [i]we[/i] really are - Muslims - acting with haya in front of others, but first within our own muslim community. Another catch to this is, and some brothers may not admit it :) but they don't want to look bad or act in a 'funny' way with other muslimahs around. But maybe thats to do with her knowing his parents! ;-D ;-D Alternatively, do sisters feel more shy in front of brothers than non-muslims? [wlm] |
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| Mahmoodah |
| 08/05/01 at 05:21:26 |
[quote] Alternatively, do sisters feel more shy in front of brothers than non-muslims? [/quote] i feel the same around both!!! mayb coz i'm not shy, and not really that bothered with whos there and whos not!!! but i know wat ppl mean wen they say they r more shy infront of muslims!!! i think this is good, more respect;) |
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| jannah |
| 08/06/01 at 12:51:12 |
| slm, I can understand the psyche of why brothers may do what they do in this case.. ie shyness, not wanting to look bad, some sort of feeling of respect, not wanting to give her the wrong impression, any sincere reason.... but my only point is that i think behavior like this (avoiding the sister in this particular situation) ends up breeding hypocrisy in people... because then it develops into the 'betsy phenomenon'... |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/07/01 at 11:37:45 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote] but my only point is that i think behavior like this (avoiding the sister in this particular situation) ends up breeding hypocrisy in people... because then it develops into the 'betsy phenomenon'...[/quote] I wonder if years from now Islamic students will have long and heated discussions on [color=Red]The Betsy Phenomenon[/color] ;-) But seriously, let me see if I can make up an example to highlight the two differences in our checkout scenario. [u]The Betsy Phenomenon[/u] 1. Brother spots Muslim Sister at checkout 2. Brother deliberately avoids her and goes to the checkout of a Non Muslim woman 3. Brother chit chats with her as he pays (something he would not do if he was in the presence of the Muslim Sister) [u]The Non Betsy Phenomenon[/u] 1. Brother spots Muslim Sister at checkout 2. Brother deliberately avoids her and goes to the checkout of a Non Muslim woman 3. Brother quietly pays for his groceries and leaves (something he would have done if he was in the presence of the Muslim Sister) Okay I know the example is a bit contrived but cut me some slack here! ;-) Basically the double standard comes when he treats them differently not in his *choice* of who to go to. Given the above I can fully understand why some Sisters would look upon a Muslim Brother going towards a Non Muslim as a sign of disrespect but like I said above it is actually a sign of respect. You cannot *assume* he's disrespecting you since you can only judge the Brother's action if you know his intention. Okay that's my lot!! I hope it explains where I'm coming from PS Has anyone actually been to the grocery store lately? ;) PPS I think these real life scenarios are actually very beneficial in highlighting how each of us thinks. I think we should entrust Br Arsalan to come up with a few more ;-) |
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| sarah |
| 08/07/01 at 13:15:24 |
| assalamu alaykum :-) my first time posting in this part of the board... finally you brothers have something interesting to discuss *LOL* kidding! ;) [quote]Alternatively, do sisters feel more shy in front of brothers than non-muslims?[/quote] this is true for me for sure for a couple of reasons. one reason is the same as the brothers mentioned and that is that a practicing brother reminds you of Allah. but the other reason is that i am more likely to find a practicing muslim brother attractive or appealing than a non-muslim man. for some reason non-muslims men, even if others think that they are attractive, are not attractive to me at all. i think its because a major thing that makes a brother attractive to me is that is he is a practicing muslim. besides, sisters can't marry non-muslim men and so they are out of the question and we just don't bother to think about it that way. while with a muslim brother who is practicing, that is more appealing and so the shyness is more... am i making sense? strange huh? |
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| jannah |
| 08/07/01 at 15:14:04 |
| [wlm] brkhalid maybe we can write a whole book on this "betsy phenomenon"...:) but see the two examples you gave BOTH are examples of the betsy phenomenon... the point is that over time avoiding muslim sisters.. ie even doing example 2 all the time generates hypocrisy in one self and ends up making you treat muslims and nonmuslim women differently turning into example 1 or worse.... you might say oh that will never happen... but that's my theory... and i've seen too many examples that prove it...:( |
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| Noura |
| 08/07/01 at 16:22:27 |
| assalaamu alaikum warhmatullahui wa baraktuh, choose the lane closest 2 u, but if u make eye contact w/ her, say salaam (the brother should initiate). noura, |
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| Barr |
| 08/08/01 at 00:48:59 |
| Assalamu'alaikum [quote]while with a muslim brother who is practicing, that is more appealing and so the shyness is more... am i making sense? strange huh? [/quote] Ditto. Ditto. Ditto. Makes perfect sense to me, ukhti. If this is strange, that'll make 2 of us. Now... the brothers and counters issue.... Ok, I've got a hypothesis... [color=blue]H1: Composition of Muslims in the country influences choice of lanes in supermarkets.[/color] Ok, bear with me for a while now. I know, I may have acted weird during my younger days, dodging brothers and all of that... but let us put all of that behind, shall we? *ahem* As mentioned by Sr ABC, it seems like it's no big deal, where she lives. ie. majority Muslims... when I was at Malaysia, well, no big deal there too. It's the same for Singapore (though Muslims are the minority, but I think Muslims are more visible,and we comprise a larger percentage of the population than UK or US). Hence, due to the scarcity of Muslims that one see (like the UK and US), somehow triggers those shy vibes to be activated, when such a situation arise... because, any rare and atypical stimulus would have to cause adjustment in behaviour to suit such a condition, which may cause discomfort to what the person is used/ accustomed to - hence, in a nutshell... a change of supermarket lanes for our dear bashful brothers. I call this the Barr-Common Phenomenon. OK... I'm talking nonsense - NEXT! Just a thought! Wassalam :-) Wallahua'lam :-) |
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| BrKhalid |
| 08/08/01 at 05:13:23 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote] ... the point is that over time avoiding muslim sisters.. ie even doing example 2 all the time generates hypocrisy in one self and ends up making you treat muslims and nonmuslim women differently turning into example 1 or worse.... [/quote] So basically a Brother can catch the Betsy bug and "over time" it may well turn into the full blown Betsy disease ;-) Sheesh I hope it isn't contagious as well ;-) Seriously though, I understand the point you're trying to make. I guess the onus is on us all as Brothers [once we've been diagnosed ;-) ] to make sure that we make an active effort to fight the bug to ensure we don't develop the disease. [quote] H1: Composition of Muslims in the country influences choice of lanes in supermarkets. [/quote] I'd go along with that By all means if someone is willing to pay my airfare to a Muslim country, I'd quite happily test out this hypothesis for the benefit of the Board ;) [PS If anyone named Betsy is reading this, we mean no offence. Its just a generic name we have adopted] |
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| Asim |
| 08/08/01 at 12:33:58 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Arsalan wrote: [quote]This is not a trivial question at all! In fact, I think it's a very interesting question which strikes at the roots of many important Islamic aspects such as Hayaa', aadaab, taqwaa, 3adl, Hikmah and 3iffah. Aspects that are desperately lacking in our Ummah today. [/quote] Hmm, from the four cadinal virtues you missed out shujaa3aa (courage)? Any reason for that? I think for some brothers *cough* like *cough* Br Khalid *cough* a little more courage is needed to overcome shyness and approach a sister ;) On my last grocery trip I did check out the lanes before deciding. And guess what? All 3 lanes were manned by guys! So I was saved from any mind splitting decisions. I like Arsalans point about *always* choosing a male option if one exists and Inshallah would try to keep that in mind. Wasalaam. |
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| isra |
| 08/08/01 at 15:23:09 |
| [center][img]http://members.nbci.com/isra114/mbm.png[/img][/center] [center][img]http://members.nbci.com/isra114/hamd1.png[/img][/center] [img]http://www.jannah.org/board/Images/salam.gif[/img] So many replys, I dont understand the question exactly???? [img]http://www.jannah.org/board/Images/wsalam.gif[/img] |
| Re: An interesting question ... |
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| isra |
| 08/14/01 at 18:35:54 |
| [center][img]http://members.nbci.com/isra114/mbm.png[/img][/center] [center][img]http://members.nbci.com/isra114/hamd1.png[/img][/center] [img]http://www.jannah.org/board/Images/salam.gif[/img] No one wants explain? [img]http://www.jannah.org/board/Images/wsalam.gif[/img] |
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| sis |
| 08/15/01 at 15:46:34 |
| Alsalamu Alaykum Wa Rhmat Allah Wa Barakatuhu i used to be a cashier and these are my thoughts: if a muslim brother came to my cash it actually made me feel more at ease...WHY? -well because sometimes its so hard to avoid a guy's hand when he's giving change to u, or ur giving it back...no matter how much i tried to avoid it,(ie putting the change on the counter instead of handing it to a guy, etc) it would still happen..a muslim brother would be aware that there's no contact allowed -a muslim will say salam...i feel good when i'm greeted with a salam..sometimes it would really make my day at work:-) -..there's more but its not coming to mind now;) sometimes an encounter might have been awkward, but that only happens when the person may (Allahu a'lam) read into the encounter more than they should..its only a checkout, transaction but i do understand shyness...i would get shy too sometimes (say when a whole group of brothers may have come to my cash ..that's totally awkward) ok thats my input Walsalamu Alaykum Wa Rhmat Allah Wa Barakatuhu |
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