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Questions from an atheist
Anonymous
08/25/01 at 01:50:07
One of the reasons why I lack a belief in the God believed in by the world's three major theistic religions is the abundance of apparently pointless suffering in the world. I think the entire concept of an omnibenevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent creator is inconsistent with reality. Mudslides bury people in their homes, earthquakes kill thousands of poor people, babies are born with genetic disorders (cystic fibrosis, down syndrome, and mental retardation, and that an allegedly merciful God could have rectified the thousands of attrocities inflicted on humanity leads me to not believe in the existence of a merciful creator. Another challenge to my belief in the Muslim or Christian God is that animals suffer. Could someone please explain what the benefit could be of the majority of animals suffering painful deaths from starvation or having its flesh strown apart through a vicious attack? Does anyone here have an explanation for all the apparent pointless suffering in the world that would explain why an allegedly merciful God would produce (I'm not talking about suffering caused by humans, I'm talking about suffering that sentient humans experience that is not a result of their own actions)? If your answer is the mystery argument, that Allah does things that we just can't understand but that it somehow benefits us, please don't waste your time because it is simply put, a cop out. It's intellectual dishonesty and you're all capable of more than that. Thanks for your time. I am sorry if I have offended anyone.Don't be afraid to use your minds, to critically think, and to use reason.

Re: Questions from an atheist
se7en
08/25/01 at 01:56:40
Hello, we had a discussion on this very question [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=3018]here[/url].

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
08/28/01 at 19:50:33
Hi, I'm the author of this post, thank you for directing me to that discussion on the problem of evil. With all due respect, I do not feel that my answers were sufficiently answered in that thread (though you probably didn't expect all of them to be). Most of the theodicies used by Muslims are the same theodicies used by other theists to defend against the evidential problem of evil. However, the problem still remains unsolved until you can show how each type of suffering and evil that exist in the world could bring about more good than the harm that it causes. A loving creator simply would have rectified much of the suffering that is in the world today before it occured and would not produced such a great potential for sentient beings to suffer. Arshad wrote, "So to summarize we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test." This theodicy does not explain the benefit of the suffering of non-Muslims who did no harm to others prior to Islam reaching them. There are still numerous types of suffering that have not yet been shown to have a greater good (i.e. mud slides burrying homes, children being born with birth defects, and animal suffering). Could you please explain how these types of suffering could be the will of an allegedly merciful being?

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
08/29/01 at 05:46:17
slm I'm  a fairly new Muslim and I'm not going to pretend to know the answers to your question but I'd like to share my understanding of the situation as I see it. [quote] This theodicy does not explain the benefit of the suffering of non-Muslims who did no harm to others prior to Islam reaching them. There are still numerous types of suffering that have not yet been shown to have a greater good (i.e. mud slides burrying homes, children being born with birth defects, and animal suffering). Could you please explain how these types of suffering could be the will of an allegedly merciful being? [/quote] When bad things happen to people through no fault of their own. Take a plane crash for example. As the plane is going down what do people think? Let me tell you. Most of them through no will or concious decision of their own start to pray. When you hear bad news or even something trivial happens to you then immediately you think "Oh God" or "Oh my God!" why is this? people need somewhere to turn to in times of need. In bad times. And they turn instinctively to their creator. The world we live in now is not all there is. It is merely the start of something far better and glorious. We are here for a relatively short time. In this world we are confronted with accidents, natural disasters and evil of all kind. How we deal with these things is what is being noted. If you opt out and say "oh well, a loving God wouldn't let this happen..better I don't believe in God.." what do you have to gain from that? and what do you have to lose by trusting in God, hoping for a better afterlife, and having faith that God is with you? If an atheist can be shaken into belief through a plane crash or whatever then it's far better for him than dying a natural death in his bed only to go on to a far worse life where all his worst nightmares will be realised, far worse than any old plane crash. If you belive in God, and have faith that he is guiding your path in life, then you won't be afraid to die and you won't be afraid to suffer, because you know that what is coming after death will be worth it. When saving to buy something, you don't mind doing without all the little luxuries because you are so looking forward to finally having that thing that you have been saving for. Yes, life is hard. Life is painful and life can suck. But knowing that you will live in Paradise for all eternity can certainly help to alleviate some of this temporary suffering. I don't go with this general hypothesis that out of every evil comes good. What good can come out of a little baby suffering from a strange illness? But the fact of the matter is this. Through that baby's suffering his parents are being tested. They must pray to God for the recovery of their baby. They must have faith that God will help their baby. If the baby dies, then it goes to Paradise. No doubts about that one. And the parents and family are tested further in their faith. I know it's all so complicated and hard to understand. I don't understand most of it myself. But I think a good place for you to start is to look at the proofs of Islam. The scientific facts that prove that Islam is the truth. Once you do that, I promise you that you'll never turn back. Once you believe in Islam, God will gush into your heart and put you on such a high! I'm not trying to push you into anything here. Please don't get me wrong but you have internet access, you are an intelligent person. It's worth pursueing, even if it just broadens your general knowledge and then you can say I don't believe in Islam because ..such and such..(astafirullah) I wish you all the best in the future. I hope you find God for you and for your own sake. I have nothing to gain by telling you this except some minimal reward from my creator. May Allah bless you and guide you to what is right. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Questions from an atheist
bhaloo
08/29/01 at 08:51:16
slm Good response Eleanor, alhumdullilah. [quote]When bad things happen to people through no fault of their own. Take a plane crash for example. As the plane is going down what do people think? Let me tell you. Most of them through no will or concious decision of their own start to pray. When you hear bad news or even something trivial happens to you then immediately you think "Oh God" or "Oh my God!" why is this? people need somewhere to turn to in times of need. In bad times. And they turn instinctively to their creator. [/quote] This example reminded me of another example.  A conversation took place between the leader and scholar, Jafar as-Saadiq and an avowed atheist.  Jafar asked the person: "Have you ever travelled on the sea?" "Yes." "Have you experienced its terrors?" "Yes, indeed! One day while we were out at sea, a terrible hurricane blew up and smashed our ship.  Several sailors perished.  I clung to a rafter of the ship but it was soon snatched away.  I was thrown about in the stormy sea but eventually was tossed up on the shore." "When the storm brok," Jafar commented, "perhaps you first relied on the ship and the sailors for your safety and then on the rafter which saved you for a while.  But when all these went, did you resign yourself to death or did you still hope for safety?" "I hoped for safety." "On whom did you hope for safety?" The man was silent and Jafar said: "The Creator is the one on whom you placed your hopes at that time.  And He is the one who delivered you from drowning." After this conversation, the atheist was no longer an atheist. ;=============================== How should we Muslims deal with intense personal suffering and grief? How should we comfort a friend or relative who is in distress? In Súra Al-Baqara, verses 155-157, Allah subhanallahu ta'ala reminds us: Be sure We shall test you with something of fear and hunger; some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil) but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere. Who say when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah we belong and to Him is our return." They are those on whom (descend) blessings from Allah and Mercy and they are the ones that receive guidance. From these verses we can see that in a Muslim's life, hardship and suffering should never come as a complete surprise. In fact, Allah promises us some hardship as a certainty, somewhere during our lifetime. It is a test of our iman, our faith in Allah, and we should not despair, because there are lessons to be learnt from every situation, especially from misfortune. A true believer should know that during his lifetime, he must expect to be visited by success and failure, pleasure and pain, loss and gain. This is the inseparable duality of life. We cannot value anything without knowing its opposite. We must accept life as it comes, in the best of times and the worst of times, with equal grace and forbearance. Let us consider Nabi Ayyub's example, which appears in Sura Al- Anbiyya_h, v. 83 and 84: "And (remember) Ayyub when he cried to his Lord "Truly distress has seized me but You are the Most Merciful of those that are merciful." So We listened to him: We removed the distress that was on him and We restored his people to him and doubled their number as a Grace from Ourselves and a thing for commemoration for all who serve Us" Nabi Ayyub was a prosperous man, with faith in Allah, and he suffered many hardships. His cattle were destroyed, his servants killed by the sword, and his family crushed under his roof. But he held fast to his faith in Allah. As a further calamity he was covered with ugly sores from head to foot, and his friends abandoned him. But throughout this ordeal, his faith, his iman remained rock-solid, unswerving, undiminished. Because of this, Almighty Allah was pleased with him, so he was restored to full health. Not only was his prosperity redoubled, but his family and friends returned to him, and Allah gave him 7 sons and 3 daughters. He lived to a good old age, and saw four generations of his descendants before he died. This inspiring story of Prophet Ayyub is a wonderful example to us all. When we encounter sudden hardship, we should not feel sorry for ourselves,  because self-pity leads us nowhere.  We should place our complete trust in Allah subhanallahu ta'ala, and have the certainty in heart and mind, that at the end of our pain and suffering, Allah's love and mercy will embrace us.   To a Believer, good fortune and misfortune are merely two sides of the same coin of life. Although we do not welcome hardship, we know that even in the noonday of life, we live in the shadow of death; in the peak of our prosperity, we are just a few short paces away from poverty and in the prime of our good health, illness lurks in the shadows nearby. A hadith narrated by Abu 'Abbas 'Abdullah, says: "Remember Allah in times of ease, and He will recognise you in times of distress. What hit you could not have missed you, what missed you could not have hit you. Remember that victory comes with patience, relief comes with affliction and ease comes with hardship".

Re: Questions from an atheist
*sofia*
08/29/01 at 10:14:08
Man o man, I'm scared to post, because the issue of atheism is so foreign, at least in the sense of questioning the fact that there is a Creator.  I mean, the issue of how our cells or the cells of any created matter came into being is a miracle in and of itself.  Wasn't it Shaikh Mokhtaar who broke it down, statistically, that there is no way that a group of cells the size of a matchhead (?) in our brain could have spontaneously become or evolved that way.  The probability of it happening are one in however many billions.  And we know through physics that particles become more disordered through time, not less (theory of entropy? can't recall)...anyways, asides from the scientific aspect which I haven't stated well, I'm not sure how to get into the issue of "suffering".   Sorry, I have more questions than I have answers. "Does anyone here have an explanation for all the apparent pointless suffering in the world that would explain why an allegedly merciful God would produce" Not sure what makes it "pointless"... "A loving creator simply would have rectified much of the suffering that is in the world today before it occured and would not produced such a great potential for sentient beings to suffer" Not sure God ever made the claim that this life would not be filled with some measure of "suffering".  This life on this earth is not Paradise, nor did God ever claim it to be.   One thing that comes to mind when I see, what apparently seems to be (apparent: only that which is open to view), suffering not caused by the suffering victim his/herself: their suffering could be a form of higher reward or benefit in the hereafter or erasing of sins that would be held against them on the Day of Judgement or a reminder for the rest of us, wAllahu'alim.  I know, I know, you've heard it before.  As most Abrahmaic faiths teach us, the afterlife is the *actual* life.  This life is more like a walk under the shade of the tree in a journey through a desert.  Short.  So why compare everything only to what we know or to what is transitory?  I mean, a shot in the arm hurts, but...the fact that there is more that we don't know (than we do), is enough to baffle anyone more than "seemingly pointless suffering." Allahu'alim, I hope I haven't harmed more than helped.  Sorry for the quick reply.  The posts on the other thread related to this were much clearer.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Haniff
08/29/01 at 10:16:37
Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh I do not think it is out of place to post this story which has done enough rounds: Why Science fails to explain God "LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Koran says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly."Ahh! THE KORAN!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. - Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it?  Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil? [No answer] "Is there sickness in this world?Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness?  All the terrible things - do they  exist in this world? " The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them? " [No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture,all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it,young man?" [No answer] "Don't you see it all over the  place?  Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"   [No answer] "Do you believe in God,son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you? " "No, sir.  I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?" "No, sir.  I have not." "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" [No answer] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical,testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please." The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir.  Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies.  "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot ieasure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were,  you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes,professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control.  Suddenly he is affability itself.  He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir.  You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice?  No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Muslim pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Muslim continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Koran tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going,"the Muslim replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain!!" The class is in chaos. The Muslim sits... Because that is what a chair is for.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Arsalan
08/29/01 at 12:35:17
Dear Jeremy, I don't have much time, so I'll just briefly provide my two cents here, and maybe it'll be some food for thought for you, God willing [Insha Allah]. Quran, 10:44 - Verily Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: It is man that wrongs his own soul. Man has been given a free will to choose between good and evil.  If he chooses to do good, everything turns out good.  However, if he chooses to do evil, he harms his own self as well as the society in which he lives.  And this is the ultimate reason *why* his act is called "evil," because it not only harms his own self but also the environment and the people around him. But you might ask why the people around him must suffer because of a mistake of an individual.  How is this fair?  The people around him suffer for two reasons.  The first reason goes back to another concept of Islam, known as vicegerency.  The fact that we have been sent to this earth as vicegerents of God, to command whatever is good and forbid whatever is evil.  If we do not fulfill this duty (a.k.a. "da'wah"), then it is only fair that we pay the price for it.  If the society around this man does not stop him from doing this evil (in the form of proper upbringing [tarbiyyah], exhortation, enforcement of Islamic laws, etc.), then it is not just this man who is responsible for his crime but also the people who did not prevent him from committing it.  And thus the affliction faced by all of them is justified.   As for those who did all their best in preventing the evil, and still failed, the affliction that they face becomes a trial for them.  If they persevere through it, and don't lose faith in Allah, then they are rewarded by Allah in this life and the Next.  And if not in this life, then certainly in the Next. To look at some of your examples, if a deformed baby is born from a mother, because of pollution in the lands, or widespread diseases ... these diseases are a result of the crimes that men are committing on this earth.  The deformed baby, then, becomes a punishment for some, a warning for others, and a sign from God.  The baby itself has suffered for *nothing*, but the compensation that it will get for its suffering is enormous by Allah.   Allah does not treat people unjustly.  Whatever evil befalls us comes from our own selves.  Be it natural disasters (earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes), which come as a result of our fiddling with nature, or disobedience to Allah.  Or be it anything else. The afflictions that non-Muslims face before they hear about Islam is a great blessing.  Most of these afflictions are there to shake up the person, to put a spark in their heart to search for God.  Multitudes of people are known to go on a search for Truth after going through an affliction in their life.  Cat Stevens (a famous European pop-star from the seventies) is a great example, who after being afflicted with a life-threatening disease, and later almost drowning to death, went on an exhaustive search for the Truth, and later accepted Islam. This is all I can write at this moment.  Feel free to ask for clarifications, or ask further questions if you have any.  I wish you best of luck in your search for the Truth.   Take care.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Sparrow
08/29/01 at 14:11:10
Excellent, Arsalan.  You have a gift for explaining things in a clear and down-to-earth manner. :) My own beliefs regarding this are scattered at best, but I've always that that the hard times/suffering we go through often makes us stronger and, when we emerge in our new strength, we are better able to contribute to our families and communities.  So we can't just look at the suffering but must also look at what positive things it has brought into our lives.  I personally have had a TERRIBLE year, and when it first began to fall apart I thought I would never be happy again.  Now, 366 days later, I know that the bad times set me on a path of self-reflection and exploration of things like Islam that I probably would not have done had I not been in the pits. I have an additional question.  God has given us free will to chose between doing right and doing wrong.  Ok.  Makes sense. But how does that fit in with the notion that God is "in charge" of all happenings?   I'm unclear on Islam's position on predestination...perhaps if I had some info this wouldn't seem like such a contradiction to me.   Explanations are welcome! Sparrow

Re: Questions from an atheist
bhaloo
08/29/01 at 14:20:26
slm [quote]I have an additional question.  God has given us free will to chose between doing right and doing wrong.  Ok.  Makes sense. But how does that fit in with the notion that God is "in charge" of all happenings?   I'm unclear on Islam's position on predestination...perhaps if I had some info this wouldn't seem like such a contradiction to me.   Explanations are welcome! [/quote] I'm pretty sure this issue came up here before, but in case it hasn't, Dr. Siddiqi (ISNA's president) was asked about this and he responded with the following answer: Q 1. Please explain what is the concept of fate in Islam. We Muslims say that Allah knows everything. He knows what is going to happen to us and He knows what our end will be. If Allah knows all these things, so why are we being judged? We don't have our own will to do anything; in that case whatever we may do Allah already has our fate decided. Please reply. (Omer Masud, Melbourne, Florida) A 1. We do not use the word "fate" in Islam. The word "fate" means "the power that determines the outcome of events before they occur". Some people believe in fate as an independent and invisible power that controls their destinies. Such people are called "fatalists". A Muslim is not a fatalist person. Muslims believe in Allah and only Allah has the power to predetermine anything. Allah is "al-Qadir" (the All Powerful or Omnipotent) and "al-'Aleem" (the All Knower, Omniscient). Since Allah has power over every thing, He must know every thing. He must know things before they happen, because if He knew things after they happened, He would not have full power over them. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala not only knows things, but He also decides and determines everything in His universe. Whatever happens in this world happens according to Allah's decision and plan. In Islamic terminology this principle is known as "al-qada wa al-qadar"(the decision and determination of Allah). It is a very important principle of Iman (faith). Does this mean that we human beings have no freedom? It seems that way apparently to some people. One Western scholar put the problem very interestingly in the following words: "If God knows everything He must know the future, and if He knows the future, He must know the future acts of His creatures. But then His creatures must act, as He knows they will act. How then can they be free?" There are many people who became confused by looking at the problem in this way. There were also some Muslim thinkers who believed that human beings have no freedom. They were called "Jabriyah". The majority of Muslim scholars did not accept this position, they strongly criticized and condemned this position and considered it against the teachings of the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah. The mainstream Muslim position is that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has the knowledge of all things and He has the power over all things. Allah, however, has also granted freedom to human beings. Allah's power and foreknowledge do not mean that human beings have no freedom, nor does Human freedom negate Allah's power and foreknowledge. Human beings are free only as much as Allah has granted them the freedom. However, inspire of our human freedom we are still under the control of Allah and within His knowledge. Allah will judge us according to the freedom and responsibility that He gave us. He knows very well how much freedom we have and to what extent we are able to exercise our freedom, each one of us in our own circumstances. It is for this reason that we say that only Allah is the True and Final Judge. In the Qur'an He is called "Ahkam al-hakimin" (the best of all the judges). When we carefully examine our own selves and the world around us, we see two things very clearly. On the one hand we find ourselves overwhelmed by forces that are apparently beyond our decision and control, but on the other hand we do experience real freedom and we make our choices between various options. Thus the truth is that we are free and we are determined both at the same time. Our freedom is very limited, nevertheless it does exist and it is the deciding factor for our responsibility and consequently for the eternal reward or punishment. In the Qur'an Allah has spoken about His control and power as well as human freedom and responsibility. Both aspects are very clearly mentioned in the Qur'an. The best way to understand and interpret the Qur'an is to keep both of these aspect in mind. We should not emphasize our freedom at the expense of Allah's power and knowledge, nor should we speak about Allah's power and knowledge by negating and denying our own freedom and responsibility. Maulana Maududi -may Allah bless his soul- in his book Qada and Qadar (in Urdu) collected both types of verses from the Qur'an. Following a selection of these Qur'anic statements. On Allah's power and control, see the following verses: All power belongs to Allah (al-Baqarah 2:165). Say, Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One the Mighty (al-Ra'd 13:16). Allah has created you and all that you do (al-Saffat 37:96). No female conceives, nor does she bring forth a child save with His knowledge. And no one is granted long life, not is anything diminished of its life, but it is all recorded in a book... (al-Fatir 35:11). No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence. That is truly easy for Allah. In order that you may not despair over matters that pass you by, not exult over favors bestowed upon you. For Allah loves not any vainglorious boaster" (al-Hadid 57:22-23). To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth. He enlarges the provisions for whomsoever He pleases and straitens it for whomsoever He pleases. Surely He knows all things full well (al-Shura 42:12). And say not of anything, 'I shall do it tomorrow', unless Allah wills... (al-Kahf 18:23-24). If Allah touch you with affliction there is none to remove it but He; and if He touch you with happiness, then He has power to do all that He wills (al-An'am 6:17). Whom Allah will, He lets go astray, and whom He wills, He places on the right path (al-An'am 6:39). Do you desire to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him whom Allah causes to perish you shall not find a way (al-Nisa' 4:88). If your Lord has enforced His will, surely, all those who are on the earth would have believed together. Will you then force people to become believers? And none can believe except by the permission of Allah (Yunus 10:99-100). But on the human freedom and responsibility read the following verses: Neither according to your desires, nor according to the desires of the People of the Book, whosoever will do evil will be requited accordingly and shall not find beside Allah any protector or helper. If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them (al-Nisa' 4:123-124). This because Allah does never change a favor that He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition... (al-Anfal 9:53). Every person stands pledged for what he has earned (al-Tur 52:21). It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let his who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve (al-Kahf 18:29). This is a reminder. So let him, who will, take a way unto his Lord (al-Muzzammil 73:19). And hasten towards forgiveness from your Lord... (Al 'Imran 3:133). O our people, respond to God's summoner and believe in him (al-Ahqaf 46:31). Turn to your Lord and submit yourselves to Him... (al-Zumar 39:54). Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what people's hands have wrought (al-rum 30:41). Whatever misfortune befalls you is the consequence of what your own hands have wrought. And Allah forgive many of your sins (al-Shura 42:30). Indeed Allah does not wrong the people at all, it is they wrong their own selves (Yunus 10:44). As for Thamud, We guided them, but they preferred blindness to guidance (Fussilat 41:17). There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right way has become distinct from error (al-Baqarah 2:256). The Qur'an has no contradictions. Allah's power and knowledge and human freedom are not mutually exclusive. Whatever freedom we have is granted to us by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and we should use it to submit to Him freely and willingly. This is the honor that Allah has given us and for this honor angels were asked by Allah to bow in respect and honor of the progenitor of the human race Adam -may the peace of Allah be upon him.
NS

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
08/29/01 at 20:54:36
Thank you all for your responses. I will try to address various arguments in each of your posts. Eleanor wrote: "When bad things happen to people through no fault of their own. Take a plane crash for example. As the plane is going down what do people think? Let me tell you. Most of them through no will or concious decision of their own start to pray. When you hear bad news or even something trivial happens to you then immediately you think "Oh God" or "Oh my God!" why is this? people need somewhere to turn to in times of need. In bad times. And they turn instinctively to their creator." Yes, it is true that many people turn to a belief in God when they are in times of trouble. However, there are atheists in foxholes. I would be one of them unless I was under the influence of some kind of narcotics, was deluded, or unquestionable evidence for the existence of God was shown. I feel that the existence of God has not been proven and that many of the arguments for the existence of God fall flat on their faces and/or are self-refuting. The reason why I reject Pascal's wager are: there is no evidence that the chances are 50/50 (infact, there is no evidence that the Muslim or Christian God exist at all) many beliefs held by theistic religions are harmful and corrupt people's ability to interpret the world around them many of the beliefs held by theistic religions cause conflict and intolerance and even if the Christian or Muslim God was proven to exist, I still would not worship such a God because of It's alleged prior actions and the fact that that type of being does not deserve my respect because it is so insecure that It would torture and torment people because they failed to believe in it or worshipped other deities Arshad: Interesting story, but I and many of the atheist of history have refused to sacrifice their principles when they became scared or were in a time of suffering. When I was a Christian I looked at many of the stories in the Bible of people enduring God inflicting suffering on them with unquestioning praise in a positive light. Now that I use reason, I find many of them disturbing. That a perfect being would chose to prove a point by killing hundreds of people or asking a man to kill his son is quite frankly, mind boggling. Sofia: Your argument for the existence of God, in my humble opinion, is quite common and quite flawed. Theist often point and say, "Look how complex that is, it obviously came from a higher being. You'd have to be nutty not to believe that came from God." The flaw in this argument (reflected in the design, beauty, and causual arguments) is that the exact same argument can be applied to God. I could say that since Allah is allegedly so complex, much more complex than the human being, that it had to have a designer and it had to have a cause. You would say that Allah has no beginning. And you know what? That is an even more extraordinary claim than the atheist's claim of a natural cause of all things because you are saying that an omniscient and omnipotent being has always existed, without a cause. And according to Occam's Razor, it would be more logical to accept the natural explanation of our origins because it is a much simpler claim than saying that God, an omnipotent and omniscient being, has always existed. See what I'm saying? The argument can be used against you and you have an even bigger problem than the atheist who says that all things occured naturally. BTW, what I mean by "apparently pointless" suffering is that there is a lot of suffering that seems to have no rhyme or reason. I'm leaving it up to you, the positive claimant, to show how each form of suffering is not pointless and that Allah has a very good reason for allowing or creating each form. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE POSITIVE CLAIMANT, if you claim that Allah does this or that, you first must prove that Allah exists to have a logical and consistent argument. Otherwise, saying Allah is this and that is utterly useless. As for your claim that suffering may be for a later reward, I already said that the suffering of animals and people in past nations where Islam had not influenced it could not yeild such results. How could these types of suffering merit a reward in the afterlife? Haniff: I've read that story before. It's quite amusing that the author of the story attempted to paint a detracting picture of an atheist professor. Maybe when I have some more time I'll address it in detail. It seems to be an attack on strong atheism (a positive denial that no god or gods exists). I, myself, am a weak atheist. I simply lack a belief in God, I do not deny the possibility of a gods existence. There is no burden of proof in the postion of a weak atheist; however, there is a burden of proof for the strong atheist. Arsalan: "To look at some of your examples, if a deformed baby is born from a mother, because of pollution in the lands, or widespread diseases ... these diseases are a result of the crimes that men are committing on this earth.  The deformed baby, then, becomes a punishment for some, a warning for others, and a sign from God.  The baby itself has suffered for *nothing*, but the compensation that it will get for its suffering is enormous by Allah." I was speaking of genetic birth defects, like down syndrome, that aren't caused as a direct result of past human actions. It still boggles my mind that a perfect being couldn't think of a better way of making a sign than making an innocent baby suffer. In other words, this defense doesn't paint a very pretty picture of God. As for your natural disasters argument, earth quakes kill thousands of poor people, people that are already suffering. Why would a merciful being want to cause more suffering to people that are already suffering? Sparrow: To give an alternative view, as a religious person I lived a miserable and stressful life. Now that I am a free thinker, I feel much more liberated. Arshad: This is a bit irrelevant, but why do you think that Muhammad (assuming that you believe he said this) ordered apostates to be killed?

Re: Questions from an atheist
Haniff
08/30/01 at 01:15:09
Assalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh **This is the sixth essay on a series of articles on "Basics of Faith" written by brother Adil Salahi, which appeared in the [i]Arab News[/i] some time ago. I think this is relevant to the subject under discussion here. Insha Allah, I will try to post the entire series in batches once I complete "What the Qur'an Teaches".** [center]Islamic faith and the concept of predestination[/center] Muslims are often accused by others of being fatalists. Such phrases as Muslims commonly use in their conversation as, "God willing," or, "God will provide," are taken as evidence supporting this accusation. Those who accuse Muslims of fatalism do not always belong to the greater section of people whose knowledge of Islam is very scanty. Some of those who study Islam as outsiders can easily form such a misconception. Yet to repeat this accusation is to do Muslims a great injustice. Muslims certainly believe in fate and predestination. But their beliefs are greatly different from what is meant by fatalism. The basic principle in this connection is that God is the owner of the universe. It belongs to Him as His property in which no one else is a partner to Him. In other words, to God belongs sovereignty absolute. Sovereignty, however, is at His disposal; He can do with it whatever He chooses. Thus He can assign a share of it, in the measure He determines to whomever He pleases. He can also deprive anyone of anything as well as exalt or abase whomever He wills: He is the Lord of all things, good and bad, and He can do what He wills. All the natural phenomena which operate in the universe are but manifestations of His power. He can grant any of His servants limitless means of sustenance, subject to the control or supervision of no one, since He is the only Lord of the universe. God says in the Qur'an: "Say: Lord, Sovereign of all sovereignty, You bestow sovereignty on whom You will and take it away from whom You please; You exalt whomever You will and abase whomever You please. In Your hand lies all that is good; You have power over all things. You cause the night to pass into the day, and the day to pass into the night; You bring forth the living from the dead and the dead from the living. You give sustenance, beyond all reckoning to whom You will" (3: 26-27) God acts and determines His actions according to His own free will. No one can influence His choice and determination. But His actions are characterized by His own wisdom and compassion. If any person is privileged with something good he cannot be deprived of it except by God. "Whatever grace God opens up to man, none can withhold it; and whatever He withholds, none can henceforth release: for He alone is Almighty, truly wise." (35:2) Pre-destination is mentioned several times in the Qur'an. Taken together, these references indicate that predestination means the elaborate system God has set for the universe, and the natural laws and phenomena which He has set in operation so that cause and effect are dependent on each other. Al-Nawawi, a leading Islamic scholar, explains this concept on the basis that God determines all happenings long before time. Right at the beginning He knew that these events would happen at particular times known to Him and in particular shapes and forms. Thus, everything happens at the time and in the shape He determines. To believe in pre-destination is part of the Islamic faith. What it means is that God has created all natural laws, phenomena and systems and set them in operation, and that everything moves and acts within these laws, phenomena and systems. We read in the Qur'an: "And of Our sway over all that exists they have a sign in the night: We withdraw from it the light of day, and they are in darkness. And the sun: it turns in orbit of its own, that is laid down by the will of the Almighty, the All-Knowing; and in the moon, for which we have determined phases which it must traverse till it becomes like an old date stalk, dried up and curved. Neither may the sun overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day, since all of them float through space." (36: 37-38) The Islamic concept of pre-destination includes no element of compulsion. Many a Muslim scholar has pointed out that to think that pre-destination means that God compels His servants to behave or act in the way He has pre-determined for them is a misconception. Pre-destination simply means that God has known all along everything that any servant of His would do at any particular time. In other words, predestination is synonymous with God's prior knowledge. Since knowledge does not mean exercising any influence on what one knows then God's prior knowledge of what will take place does not influence the will of His creation. If a father knows that his son is intelligent, hard working, studious and has mastered all his lessons, the father's knowledge has no effect on his son's success in the examination at the end of the school year.   Contrary to what many people think, to believe in predestination releases man's energy and prompts him to try to discover the natural laws so that man can utilize them in discharging his task of building the earth. With this belief he is better able to tap the resources of the Earth and benefit from them. Every time the faith of Islam was implemented as the constitution of a certain community, that community recorded remarkable progress in both the material and spiritual sides of life. This is because man's firm belief in pre-destination establishes a strong attachment between man and God which endows man with the qualities of dignity, courage and strength. This makes him work hard in order to carry out his duty and establish truth and justice. A person who believes in pre-destination is keenly aware that everything in the universe operates according to a superior wisdom. Hence, such a person does not panic in a situation of distress, nor does he let his joy and happiness blind him when he is successful. This makes him a balanced, mature person who always aspires to a new horizon of dignity and prudence. Some people justify their sinful actions or their laziness as being the result of predestination. This is alien to the Islamic faith. A thief was brought to the second Caliph, Umar ibn Al-Khattab, who asked him why did he steal. The thief said: "God has pre-destined that." Umar ordered him to be flogged 30 lashes and ordered that his hand be chopped off. (Chopping off the hand of a thief is the normal punishment for robbery in a truly Islamic society which implements Islam as a whole and provides enough for every one to live on.) In answer to questions about the double punishment, Umar said: "His hand should be chopped off because of his stealing, and he should be flogged because of his fabrication of lies and attributing them to God." What is important from the Islamic point of view is to realize that one fate is negated by another. Thus, we say that the fate of hunger is negated by the fate of eating. This means that God has pre-determined that man feels hungry after the lapse of a few hours after his last meal. He is, then, pre-destined to feel hungry. But he is similarly pre-destined to relieve that feeling when he eats. The same applies to thirst and drinking, illness and treatment, laziness and activity. Umar ibn Al-Khattab once hurried away from a certain area when he learnt that there was an outbreak of plague there. His friend, Abu Ubaidah, another companion of the Prophet, questioned him saying: "Do you run away from what God has pre-destined?" Umar said: "Yes, indeed. I run away from God's fate to God's fate." What he meant was that he ran away from the fate of illness that results from exposure to infection to the fate of safety and health that results from taking precautions. He also gave his friend the analogy of a shepherd leaving a barren land to graze his cattle in a fertile land. By so doing the shepherd is moving from one fate to another. To believe in predestination is in no way contrary to the belief that man has a free will and can exercise his free choice. If this was not the case, that is, if man was not free to choose the path he wants to follow or to determine his actions, then it would have been unjust of God to hold him responsible for what he does. But God is the most just of judges. It is not conceivable that He should compel any person to do something and then hold him responsible for that over which he had no choice. The Islamic concept of man stresses that man has been endowed with the two tendencies of good and evil. He can enhance within himself whichever tendency he chooses. With his mind he can distinguish between right and false beliefs, good and evil actions, true and false statements. God has also given him the power to establish the truth, to do good deeds, to say what he believes to be true and abandon all evil. Hence, man must use this power in order to choose always what is good, right and true. It is indeed because of this quality and power with which man has been endowed that God brings him to account on the Day of Judgment and determines his final destiny on the basis of his deeds and actions. [i]"Islam in Perspective" - Arab News - 27 December 1999[/i] Wassalamu Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Haniff

Re: Questions from an atheist
bhaloo
08/30/01 at 08:41:32
Hello Jeremy, Unfortunately its late and I'm afraid this post will be too long if I address each point on a point by point basis, so I will try and lump things together. [quote] earth quakes kill thousands of poor people, people that are already suffering. Why would a merciful being want to cause more suffering to people that are already suffering? [/quote] Remember the earthquake in Turkey where over 50,000 people died?  In the days leading up to that earthquake there was an announcement by the government there that religion and politics had to be separate and that women were not allowed to cover themselves in the political arena.  And this is supposed to be a Muslim country and instead of implementing Islamic laws they were implementing their own laws and making a mockery of Islam.  After the earthquake I read about how people started coming back to the mosques in large numbers. I liked Arsalan's answer as well.  I think the issue was sufficiently discussed as to why there is suffering in this world.  And a few members have mentioned that being patient and enduring these trials and knowing that they will be rewarded for their trials in life. they were able to handle such situations.  I can't possibly imagine what it must be like for someone that doesn't believe in a God or afterlife, what do they have to look forward to?  How do they deal with things when the pain and suffering is too much to bare?  Suicide?  Severe depression?  You may think that this is merciless (the suffering) but there are valuable lessons to be learned from every calamity and I know I have learned A LOT from difficulties in my own life that will insha'Allah (God willing) prepare me for new challenges.  You may think that some of the things that happen are too much, but for a believer this world is a temporary life and knowing that there is a better life for us insha'Allah in the life to come helps incredibly. I think Sophie gave a good example that something more complex must have designed the things we see around us.  It reminds me of a story of a scholar visiting China and talking to an atheist taxi-driver and he took that approach, mentioning an airplane and then asked about the earth and humans.  From the atheist perspective, where did all this matter and/or energy come from to create all these things?  Someone had to provide it. The Quran is God's words completely, so we would expect that there would be no mistakes in this book and that whatever scientific information it does have is completely accurate. So let's look at things from a scientific perspective.  This is an incredible book showing scientific miracles in the Quran and verified by top non-Muslim scholars in their perspective fields. [url]http://www.it-is-truth.org[/url] I especially like this one: [url]http://www.it-is-truth.org/chapters/seasnoceans.htm[/url] The following short story talks about some scientific miracles briefly, and although doesn't go into any great detail it still has some valid points: Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought. Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question......with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its  mechanism or functioning? Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine. Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product. Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable. Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence? Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on. Yunus: Is this what you believe? Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory. Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you....In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. "Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart". Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago. Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory. Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet _____ of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet _____________ of Islam. Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed. Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam,  testify to this. Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess. Yunus:.....What does science say about the shape of the Earth ? Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape. Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, "Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat. Bob: Go on. Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, "He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night." The word used in the original arabic text is "Kaw'wara" which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ? Bob: I'm not convinced. Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from? Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light." Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own. Bob: Its probably conjecture...guesswork. Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed....... When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well. Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary....Ha! Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school. Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the "Black spots". Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis. Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)". Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me......is there a difference between a star and a planet? Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light....like the earth on which we live. Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy. Bob: I'm listening. Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds .............. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ...........chapter 39, verse 21,  "Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs.......", In chapter 23, verse 18, "We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it", and also in chapter 24, verse 43, "Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ........" Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580. Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, "By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness", which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter  37, verse 6, as it reads, "We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets". Bob: ...............................  Hmmmmmm.........................It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet _____________. Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect. Bob: What do you mean?! Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became  advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa. The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, "God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you  see rain drops issuing from within them.....". While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term "Folding". Bob: Yes, you see.... the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth. Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes". Here the word "stakes" is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ..... meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off. The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them". Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ........scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix.......is that correct ? Bob: That is correct.....this phenomenon is observed at various locations......for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres. Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass". A similar message is given in  chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........" Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation. Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed. Bob: I see..... according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans.........can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this.....if anything at all. Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion.....that life began in the  Oceans.... Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %. Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe". Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from water. Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water. Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?...there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories .......Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents. Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa. Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, "and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures". It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart. Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan ? Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate..... Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick.....but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick....the Quraan is also referred to as the "Furqaan" which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times ...... mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree,  therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick. Bob: Tell me more. Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, "(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs". Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ..... that is .......the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, "...........and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs ......." Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, "There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you .....". Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ....... for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ..... the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place. Bob: Perhaps your Prophet _____________ was a very observant man who made notes of them. Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet _____________ of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey ........ Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men." Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue. Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ....... a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned  reference, "Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it." Bob: Tell me ...... what does the Quraan say about human beings? Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. .....But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan? Bob: Please go on. This is interesting. Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, ".... We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term......". As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ....... this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world. Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, "Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings". Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 - chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. "Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh ............" ........ the verse goes on further in this manner of description. Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, "......... He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight........". Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence  development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy. These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, "The 1300 year old Quraan contains  messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God." Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media? Yunus: But it was ....... check the archives ......for example ....... the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading "Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time". Or the times of India,  New Delhi ...... dated 10 December 1984 under the caption "Koran scores over modern sciences." Bob: This is really fascinating......don't stop..........continue.... Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, "Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth......". Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about  diabetics. Bob: What do you mean? Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited. Bob: While we are on the topic of food ....... tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam ...... What do they mean? Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two. Bob: Can you give me an example ? Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health. Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product....... in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination. Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam. Bob: What do you mean ? Yunus: You see.....the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact. Bob: I see.....this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ. Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous ...... only today did our dietitians realise such a thing. Bob: Again, while on the topic of food........ Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine. Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ......in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ..........that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the  creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ........all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops ...... ham ...... bacon....... Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases. Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ....as we talked about uric acid content in the blood.....it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content...... the remaining 98%  remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who  consume pork. Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ......I think we are going to land shortly .... I guess its true - time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more.......just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway ? Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter..... it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown. Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". Thereafter nobody said a word ........they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down......... --------------- When we examine the evidence we see that there are just too many coincidences or lucky guesses for this book to be written by anyone else other then the Creator. As for the issue of apostacy, there are rules associated with this and one has to look at the whole picture.  I'm not going to post a response to this as it would be a little lengthy and it is irrelevant to the issue at hand.  First we should focus on establishing a Creator before other issues can be addressed, otherwise this discussion will be unproductive.

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
08/30/01 at 05:32:44
slm I'm glad Professor Keith More was brought up in this discussion because that was one of the most crucial points for me to accept and believe that the Qur'an was divinely revealed. I'd like to add an anecdote that I read about him. This Professor is not Muslim but completed a study of the signs given in the Qur'an to do with embryology. He was giving a talk on his findings and when he mentioned how the Qur'an accurately describes how the foetus looks inside the womb in the early stages of development, a lady in the crowd commented (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the Arabs were all butchers and had probably cut open pregnant women to see how the foetus looked inside. To this the professor replied that the stage of development described in the Qur'an  can only be observed under a microscope. It's impossible for the naked human eye to see. Then he went on to mention that the microscope had been invented many many centuries *after* the Qur'an had been revealed. So what did the lady think? That Muhammad had secretly invented a microscope and hid it away after every examination of a pregnant woman? Well of course the lady had nothing to answer on that. Jeremy, this is only one of the many many proofs that the Qur'an is all that the Muslims (and not only Muslims, Professor More for example)  claim it to be. Please look further into this for arguments sake, and please remain a member of this board, asking any questions you may have. We're all delighted to have you here - welcome to the board! :) wasalaam eleanor.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Nazia
09/08/01 at 16:59:11
Jeremy, From your previous posts, I can tell that you have studied the various philosophical arguments regarding the existence of a God.  The teleological (or argument by design) is one of the most common, yet philosophically the weakest, whereas the causal and ontological arguments are often given a little more credit.  I'm going to leave the ontological one out of this discussion, but mention a little about the causal and teleological ones.  Now the teleological argument, if I am not mistaken, is weak because it basically says, "What's the ACTUAL probability that any of these things happened on their own?"  And clearly the probability is irrelevenant because according to a common athiestic view, we are dealing with an infinite amount of time.  However, you seem to be of the position that the Universe was in fact CREATED, and that in fact it was created by natural causes.   [quote]I could say that since Allah is allegedly so complex, much more complex than the human being, that it had to have a designer and it had to have a cause. You would say that Allah has no beginning. And you know what? That is an even more extraordinary claim than the atheist's claim of a natural cause of all things because you are saying that an omniscient and omnipotent being has always existed, without a cause. And according to Occam's Razor, it would be more logical to accept the natural explanation of our origins because it is a much simpler claim than saying that God, an omnipotent and omniscient being, has always existed. See what I'm saying? The argument can be used against you and you have an even bigger problem than the atheist who says that all things occured naturally.[/quote] You see the problem with the argument you just presented is that it is too simplified.  When the universe was created, that was when time was created.  Because the Universe is bound and so is time.  Anything boundless cannot have a time.  So essentially, anything before the creation of the universe was timeless- ie, Infinite.  Now the theist will claim that this infinite-ness was actually God, whereas the athiests may argue that it was simply the initial stages of singularity. The argument is NOT therefore--is there a FIRST cause which was timeless, but rather WAS this first cause independent of matter or was it simply energy or something.  I wrote a paper on this same topic last year, and I would let you read it, though I'd rather you read the actual source from where I got much of my information. I think you'll find it very interesting: [I'm removing the URL because people complained..IM me if you want it.] Chapter 4 is the one I'd like you to read if you get the time.  It's long, but I really think its worth the effort.  Its not an EASY read exactly, but worth while nonetheless.  It basically addresses the issue of WHY the claim that Allah is inifinite is not nearly as silly as saying the Universe was created by natural causes.   For all you board members out there, this site was suggested by our own Abu Khaled, so you know it has to be complicated :) But it is brilliant. This chapter sets out to prove that the first cause is immaterial, ie- independent of matter and thus cannot be discussed using normal material based arguments--very interesting!   Because, while every qusetion may have an answer, if we look in all the wrong places--we'll never find it :) Please read it!  I think you'll enjoy it! Take Care, Nazia

A/theist
AbuKhaled
08/30/01 at 16:07:21
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem. Assalam alaikum ala manitaba al huda, I must apologise from the outset for use of terminology that I know won’t be familiar to some. You see, from what Jeremy has written, I felt it quite safe to assume he is familiar with the first principles of his methodology, but for me to explain those terms for everyone else would simply take too long. If anyone has any questions about those terms, having read this, then feel free to email (not Instant Messenger) me. Dear Jeremy, Hi. Welcome to the Board, I hope your stay proves productive and beneficial. Having read your post, it is clear to me that you are a proponent of critical thinking as a methodology, and that I suspect you use logic as your basis. This is why I was disappointed to encounter the frequent logical fallacies you committed in your post despite you pointing out the weaknesses in the answers you were given by others. Insha’Allah I’ll point some of these fallacies out as we proceed. The underlying flaw in most of your contentions is the causal fallacy of being post hoc. You assume that because an attribute suggests a particular quality, that that quality must be the defining feature of the acts created by the entity that possesses that attribute. Now, whilst your assumption may in fact turn out to be sound, from *your* corner it is still an assumption for which you provided no indication as to why you might have thought it valid, which is not in keeping with the type of intellectual rigorousness and meticulousness you operate with. However, your central misconception is that you try to frame that attribute/quality in a *rational* context, for which not once did you offer any basis as to why you might lay such a preconception down as a foundation. Regardless, it is due to this fatal flaw that many of your contentions arise, wallahu a’lam [and Allah knows best]. That said, I get the impression – and I’m sure you would concur – that not everyone who has replied to you has actually understood what your contentions are. This is said because a number of the responses have been strawmen. They have not addressed *your* contentions, but other questions. I can see why, because the matters are perceptibly close, yet it doesn’t detract from the fact that the issue is (i) not about free will, and (ii) not about the suffering which from a rational perspective is free of innocence. So I’m going to pick up on some of the points you raised, and you will realise that my approach will be not to answer your questions, but to question your premises and methodology. “A loving creator simply would have rectified much of the suffering that is in the world today before it occurred and would not produced such a great potential for sentient beings to suffer.” This is a good example of the fallacy of a non sequitur in the form of affirming the consequent. Please explain how you can substantiate (i) your presumption that the Creator is “loving” from *your* evidences? (I’m not saying He (awj) isn’t, but asking how you’ve concluded that He (awj) is), and (ii) how you could possibly know how this Creator would be? How do you presume to know what the Creator would or would not do? What proof do you have to claim that this is what a “loving creator” would have done? Why should a “loving creator” behave in this way? In fact, you encounter another logical fallacy, because you seem to imply that this is what such a creator *needs* to do to qualify being loving. Says who? Upon what basis do you *presume* that the Creator functions according to your precepts of love, justice, fairplay, etc.? Please qualify how you can make such unwarranted presumptions. “This theodicy does not explain the benefit of the suffering of non-Muslims who did no harm to others prior to Islam reaching them.” This is a strawman. Why should there be some benefit in such suffering in order for it to be justifiable? Indeed, why must it be justified at all? The money you earn, you *own*, and you do with it what you see fit. Nobody can tell you how to spend what you own, what is your property. Likewise, why cannot the Creator do with *His* (awj) creation as He (awj) sees fit? Who are we to question? Asking why changes absolutely nothing about our reality, and not knowing why is no proof against His (awj) existence. It is surely a shallow argument to claim otherwise. Wanting to know why is one thing, but to hypothesize that it being unexplainable is somehow sufficient proof/evidence that no Creator exists, is weak reasoning to my mind’s eye, and a non sequitur to yours in the guise of denying the antecedent. Why should the existence of God hinge upon the absence of what you consider “innocent suffering”? Now, if you wish to retort that your conception of God – a God that ironically you don’t believe in, but are content to determine how he should be for you to be able to believe in him (kind of ludicrous if you ask me) - is built upon what the theistic religions claim for him, namely omnivolence (is that a word?), omniscience, etc., then how is it that that which has not been taken as a proof of being from God (i.e. the books of revelation which mention His (awj) attributes) are now being taken as sufficient evidence for providing information concerning the attributes of God? Because how else – aside from a transformative evidence - could you conclude that God is omniscient, etc.? How do you – especially you, being an atheist - come to any kind of determination about what this deity that you don’t believe in, possesses in terms of attributes? From where do you derive this information? Because if you want to tell me that God is merciful, loving etc., then I want to know how you know that? Because asserting it presupposes that you have proof for it? And if you’re going to contend that your proof is what is mentioned about God in the scriptures, then that presupposes your acceptance of them as being sound sources of proof. Which I very much doubt you do. And so, if I’m right, and you don’t, your whole argument falls flat, because you have assumed the fallacy of explanation, of the form of subverted support. That is: according to you, the phenomenon you are talking about, doesn’t exist! So wherefrom then are you acquiring your *factual* information concerning the attributes of this non-existent being? Unless of course you’re forgoing your own standards of critical acceptance, in order to just speculate, in which case this reduces this whole exercise to the domain of semantic philosophy; a pursuit which no Muslim would see the point of. So, Jeremy, edify us as to your ground for conceiving God the way you do, and your evidence for doing so. And mind that you don’t answer by begging the question, because for you, the question hasn’t been proved yet that you might beg it! Moreover, how do you pontificate about how God *should be* if he exists, when you don’t even believe in Him? What is then your evidence and proof to say this is what He should be like? How are you able to predetermine what He should be like? And how does Him not being like so undermine His existence? So, maybe you’ll argue that these qualities are what the theists attribute to God, and I’m (i.e. Jeremy) just pointing out the contradictions in them with what is seen in reality. To which I put it to you: if the acceptance of such qualities of God is presupposed by proof in Him, then once so proved, the acceptance of such qualities will follow by transformative proofs, since God cannot be perceived tangibly. But once that acceptance has been embraced, then the existence of those qualities will necessarily be consistent with what you see in reality because reality is what is perceived, yet the proof of the existence of God is stronger than that which is proved by perception, as it is not a subjective proof. The only proviso will be that you are unable to reconcile the two due to your *rational* projection of such concepts upon a being, a deity, that de facto defies being subject to rationality, and rational conception. If He was, he would not be what He is, because if He was, then we would be likening Him to His creation. And this is where your whole edifice crumbles Jeremy. The existence of evil, of suffering, is not irreconcilable with the Divine Attributes, it is only irreconcilable with the rational paradigm you insist on trying to chokehold this whole discussion with. “The reason why I reject Pascal's wager are: there is no evidence that the chances are 50/50 (infact, there is no evidence that the Muslim or Christian God exist at all)” With respect, but I think this misses the whole point of Pascal’s Wager , and is thus a strawman, on top of which you contradict yourself from elsewhere. The point is not that the chances are known to be equivalent, or that there is proof, but that because you accept that you don’t know either way, you accept it could be one or t’other. All that is required is the acknowledgment of the possibility that God might exist, not the im/probability of that existence, for Pascal’s Wager to be operational. As to your contradiction, how can you reconcile your above words that there is no evidence that the Muslim God exists, with your words, “I do not deny the possibility of a gods existence.”? For if no proof exists *whatsoever* then upon what basis is the possibility of existence even conjectured? For no evidence is clearly different to inconclusive evidence, or insufficient evidence. But if you are categorically denying the existence of any evidence at all which would support belief in a God’s existence, then the only possible affirmation you might make is for the concept of God (existing), and not the *actual* existence of God Himself. Had you said ‘I do not deny the concept of God’, I would have been satisfied, but you didn’t. I can well acknowledge the *conception of a concept* that may not have evidence for it’s existence in reality (e.g. a square-circle), but how do you account for the conception of the *existence* of that concept *in reality* in the absence of any evidence? Do tell. “many of the beliefs held by theistic religions cause conflict and intolerance” Well, firstly you state that as if it is indisputable when it is entirely debatable, but also, one could equally postulate that much of the strife in the world today is caused by a *lack* of theistic beliefs. I think it is a pointless argument either way in relation to your core contention because yet again it establishes no proof for/against God. At best you’ll determine who is the better at arguing his/her case on this point. “and even if the Christian or Muslim God was proven to exist, I still would not worship such a God because of It's alleged prior actions and the fact that that type of being does not deserve my respect because it is so insecure that It would torture and torment people because they failed to believe in it or worshipped other deities” That to me, sorry, seems foolish. Once again you commit a logical fallacy, this time of the slippery slope variety. Additionally what is your proof that (i) such torture/torment (and the applicability of these terms can be debated too) is predicated on their unbelief or disbelief? And (ii) that it signifies insecurity? Jeremy, so much of what you contend is questionable in it’s very premise that to proceed in answering would be a mistake, because that would give you the erroneous perception that your premises were in fact valid, when they are not. What they are, are seriously flawed. Once we can agree that your postulates are sound, only then would it be worth entertaining them, but I for one do not even find that which you seem to state as fact, factual. Or that which you portray as being true, true. So how then could we continue? No, what needs to be addressed are your premises, and what you think validates them. I think I’ve pointed to enough instances of committal of logical fallacy by you to justify your reassessment of them. “Now that I use reason, I find many of them disturbing. That a perfect being would chose to prove a point by killing hundreds of people or asking a man to kill his son is quite frankly, mind boggling.” And that, in a nutshell, demonstrates the fundamental problem here: your paradigm. You use reason outside of the jurisdiction of reason. Why should you imagine that the Creator functions according to reason which, in essence, is a product of your mental construct? What makes you presume that the Creator of that construct must also be subject to it? Constrained by it? Function according to it? That is the whole point here, that you are attempting to understand Divine acts, using a resource that is simply insufficient: your aql [mind]. Now, to pre-empt you, you’ll say that’s a cop out. No, it isn’t. What it is, is a recognition that we don’t know everything, and that some things are beyond us. Can you conceive in your mind of a million miles? No, you can’t. The mind has it’s limits, reason has it’s bounds, rationality has it’s constraints. Before you try and project reason and rationality onto the acts of the Creator, justify to me what makes you think you can do so in the first place? What makes you think this methodology is valid? What is your evidence and proof? What makes you think the Creator reasons things out the way humans - you - do? What suggests to you that He is a rational agent? Show me some proof for such a presumption please. That said, I agree with some of your points, for example, concerning the teleological argument. I do believe that some Muslims are a bit naïve in their method of reasoning, and stultify their own efforts by not realising the inherent flaws in their argument. That is partly due to not studying the methodology of sound reasoning and critical thinking, which is ironic, because Islamic scholars learn this as a standard subject on their syllabi. Though we’re not scholars it is not hard to equip oneself with *some* of the requisite tools necessary for this endeavour. In fact I would argue that this is one of the central shortcomings of Muslims today: the apparent lack of depth to their thought *as they convey it*, the superficial understanding of it (i.e. fikr [thought]), and the inability to articulate sound reasoning/arguments. No, what normally happens, is that we use a particular argument a few times, find some success with it with a few people (i.e. it works in convincing them), and end up *assuming* it’s validity. Then it takes someone slightly more adept and familiar with methodologies of reasoning to come along and point out the weaknesses. The problem with that is that some of us built a whole worldview on the strength of that argument, and so now, when it is unravelled before us, we cannot accept what is becoming obvious to us, that that which we relied upon was flawed. This then leads to a charge of intellectual dishonesty, blind faith, belief without evidence/proof, etc., from opponents of theism. Personally I think it is so necessary to be able to think criticially, and reason soundly, else as you've managed to effectively remonstrate, we run the risk of being unable to raise the bar, and step to the plate when the level of discussion requires it. When this becomes a regular feature within theists (especially Muslims, but heck I'm biased!) I think this turns a certain kind of individual away from acknowledging even the possibility of the theist having any sound basis for his/her belief. So, for the Muslims, we *have to* be able to raise the level of our dialectic when pursuing da'wah, seriously. Else those who seek profundity (and not everyone does, which is fine too) in the sense of intellectual ratiocination will not be catered for by our da'wah. I remember not too long ago, on another Board, there had been a prolonged discussion about belief in God and His existence, and the theists were getting pummeled by the atheists who were dismissing outright that there was any possible evidence for theism. Saddest part was that none of the theists could handle their shallow arguments. When it became too painful to bear, and my silence started to eat into me, I wrote a small tract addressing some errors in the arguments of one of the atheists (I was the only Muslim there). I wrote that on Monday 23rd April 2001. No reply came forth at all. For weeks. Then, over two months later on Tuesday 10th July, I happened to revisit that place, and this is what I found [I’ve changed the names, except mine]: “Dear Apu ( sorry couldn`t resist) , I found myself agreeing with Martin Turner with regards the existance of a "God", my belief was built up over years of not *seeing* any evidence + the countless analogies like "if God exists ~ how can we explain war" etc , for the very fist time EVER when reading your very carefully thought out points for Martin , I actually thought "Hang on, this Abu chap isnt talking religious dogma", I have never sat down and really believed that this just could be possible. Thankyou , very interesting , you of course realise I wont be able to sleep properly now, this will be your fault : o( Bob” So you see, I have walked that path, so I’m not talking from hearsay, but experience. Which is why when you so assuredly write: “infact, there is no evidence that the Muslim or Christian God exist at all” it merely reminds me how *putative* this misconception is, and how wrong you don’t realise you are. In effect, it shouts to me that you’re saying this based on *how little* you know, or have studied, and not how much. And Allah knows best. Moving on… “I'm leaving it up to you, the positive claimant, to show how each form of suffering is not pointless and that Allah has a very good reason for allowing or creating each form.” Yes, and once again, due to your this time committing the strawman fallacy, *I* will ask you that before this is answered, *you* substantiate from where you have gotten this notion that Allah ta’ala requires a reason in order to allow such suffering? What is your proof that He (awj) is so obliged? I am very keen to learn how you will validate this premise. “I, myself, am a weak atheist. I simply lack a belief in God, I do not deny the possibility of a gods existence. There is no burden of proof in the postion of a weak atheist; however, there is a burden of proof for the strong atheist.” :) Now *that* is what I call a cop out. A convenient one at that. No, your position is closer to the agnostic, not the atheist, and I am unsure as to from where you made atheism into something relative rather than absolute. What you have said undermines the very definition of atheism, which is positive disbelief. The way you’ve defined yourself is closer to agnosticism. So I would contend that you *do* need to substantiate your standpoint, else you are no better than those you oppose, for you believe in the absence of proof for your belief. In point of fact, if this is the basis for your belief, then you have committed the fallacy of distraction, in this case, the fallacy of ignorance, where just because you lack the proof to say it is true that God exists, you assume it to be false. I must say, I am a little surprised at the frequency with which you have committed these modal errors, especially since you have been pointing out weaknesses in the arguments/reasoning of others here – and no doubt you will with my unlearned self also - which alluded to some degree of familiarity with those fallacies that you yourself are guilty of. “It still boggles my mind that a perfect being couldn't think of a better way of making a sign than making an innocent baby suffer.” This is the fallacy of complex question, where you’ve conjoined two unrelated points to form a single proposition. Please provide your proof that (i) this means the perfect being couldn’t think of a better way, and (ii) that this perfect being thinks. “Why would a merciful being want to cause more suffering to people that are already suffering?” And why would your not knowing the answer to this question be a proof against the existence of such a deity? How are the two inter-related? The bottom line is this Jeremy. I can empathize with your incomprehension at what you consider needless suffering, be it of innocents like children, or of those who are hit by natural catastrophes like earthquakes. Though you should note that my empathy should not be mistaken to infer there is no way of explaining this from an Islamic perspective. Like I told you from the outset, I was not concerned with *answering* your contentions, but unraveling your premises, since they were riddled with holes. I did not do that for my amusement – and I accept that until I see your reply, maybe I have not been effective in the counterpoints I’ve made, so I should not prematurely assume I have wrongfooted you – but to show you that maybe your attempts at pointing out contradictions were themselves flawed. But coming back to my last point. The bottom line is, that whilst I can empathize with your incomprehension, what *you* need to appreciate is that your not having satisfactory answers changes *nothing* in terms of what is ultimately true and what is not. It doesn’t alter your reality, this life, our outcome, and where all this is headed. Why? Because the truth stands independently of (y)our contentions. Knowing the answers to your contentions will not suddenly cause Allah ta’ala to exist, anymore than not knowing will mean He (awj) doesn’t! His (awj) existence is not dependent upon your acceptance or rejection.  Our knowing that He (awj) exists doesn’t cause Him (awj) to exist, as in the ‘man created God’ hypothesis. He (awj) is, He (awj) was, and He (awj) will be, regardless. Whether we realise or not, whether we acknowledge or not, whether we submit or not. He (awj) exists independently of the proof of His (awj) existence. The proof establishes *nothing* with regards to Him (awj), but only in regards to us. So, what you need to face, is that either way - knowing or not knowing, being satisfied or dissatisfied - one day you *will* die. The only *real* question that should bother you is, what happens thereafter? Something, or nothing? I say something. I say you will be resurrected and your final abode will be determined. This whole discussion and it’s outcome will not change that *fact* one iota. Whether you return and shoot down everything I’ve written, and even if none of us end up providing answers that placate you, to imagine that that somehow proves that you won’t one day be accountable for this life you’ve led, is foolhardy. None of us here deludes themselves into thinking they can answer everyone effectively and satisfactorily. But likewise, you shouldn’t go away thinking that if you got unsatisfactory answers, that that must be because Islam is incapable of providing them. That would be your costliest mistake, take it from me. I’m not judging you, or even criticising you, in fact, I admire your endeavour, and especially the courtesy and civility with which you’ve conducted yourself here (I hope we’ve reciprocated). No, what I’m trying to impress upon you, is that the outcome of this discussion changes nothing about the reality of this life and the fundamental truths you will one day have to face. Whether you accept that you will one day have to face them or you nonchalantly disregard that eventuality as an untruth, it changes nothing in terms of the reality. All it will affect is the way you will chart your own course. For now I think that is plenty to digest, so I’ll be awaiting your enlightening response, though as I mentioned in my email to you, I am kind of pushed for time at present, so any comebacks by me may need to be put on hold. That which was written that was in conformity with the Truth was by the Rahma [mercy] and Hidayah [guidance] of Allah (awj) walhamdulillah. Any mistakes were mine alone, astaghfirullah. All the best, Abu Khaled P.S. Sister Nazia, lol @ "so you know it has to be complicated"! You never told me you’d read it, masha’allah! How did you find it?

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
08/30/01 at 20:29:30
I must say that I'm impressed. It's great to find so many critical thinkers within the Muslim community. I found all of your posts to be quite interesting. Abu Khaled, you have brought up some excellent points about flaws in my arguments and their premises. While I have done a lot of research on the subject, I admit that my posts were more of an emotional tirade than logically constructed arguments. I was attempting to wing it without perusing my posts to remove illogical arguments. I will attempt to address or discard each "hole" that you pointed out in my response to your e-mail (for now I'll just address your points that I am capable of/have time to addressing/address). I too am pressed for time, but I hope this will be a fruitful disccussion and yield a lot of food for thought. Perhaps once our discourse has ended we can posts our conclusions on the message board. There are a few things you brought up in your post about my atheism and what I seem to be presupposing about God that I would like to address. First of all, I apologize for saying there is "no evidence" for the existence of the Muslim or Christian God. This was an accident and I was once corrected by a fellow atheist for not making the distinction between lack of evidence and no evidence. When I went to bed last night, it came to mind that I may have posted "no evidence" out of habit and I worried over that. I regret posting that. I should have said, "no evidence has been presented to me for the existence of God that I could accept using reason. You questioned the meaning of weak atheist. The common idea most people have of atheism is that one must have an affirmative denial of the existence of God to be an atheist. The alternative definition of an atheist is someone who lacks a belief in God or does not believe in a God. There is a difference between not having a belief in God and denying that any deity exist. Theist = believes in a deity, Atheist = does not believe in a deity. There are two categories of atheism, weak and strong. I have already discussed what they are. It is possible for someone to be agnostic and a weak atheist at the same time incase you weren't cognizant of that. The following information will play an important role in our discussion. You said about my weak atheism, "In point of fact, if this is the basis for your belief, then you have committed the fallacy of distraction, in this case, the fallacy of ignorance, where just because you lack the proof to say it is true that God exists, you assume it to be false." I have no basis "for belief" but I do have a basis for my lack of belief. I have not heard/read any plausible arguments for the existence of the Muslim God. Jeffrey Jay Lowder writes that there are two ways of disproving the existence of God, "One way is to prove that it cannot exist because it leads to contradictions (e.g., square circles, married bachelors, etc.). The other way is, in the words of Keith Parsons, "by carefully looking and seeing." This is how we can know that such things as the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, the Abimonable Snowman, etc. do not exist." Mark Vuletic points out, "One can prove with certainty that an entity does not exist if (a) the concept of that entity is incoherent, or (b) the existence of that entity is logically incompatible with obviously present states of affairs." An example of such incoherency would be claiming that Jesus is fully human and fully divine, the two are mutually exclusive. When I was writing about God, describing Him/Her/It as a perfect being or an omniscient being I was merely doing from the point of assumption. I was only discussing what the majority of theists believe about God. I apologize for not making that clear. It was purely from an assumption stand point. You write: "So, what you need to face, is that either way - knowing or not knowing, being satisfied or dissatisfied - one day you *will* die. The only *real* question that should bother you is, what happens thereafter? Something, or nothing? I say something. I say you will be resurrected and your final abode will be determined. This whole discussion and it’s outcome will not change that *fact* one iota. Whether you return and shoot down everything I’ve written, and even if none of us end up providing answers that placate you, to imagine that that somehow proves that you won’t one day be accountable for this life you’ve led, is foolhardy. None of us here deludes themselves into thinking they can answer everyone effectively and satisfactorily. But likewise, you shouldn’t go away thinking that if you got unsatisfactory answers, that that must be because Islam is incapable of providing them. That would be your costliest mistake, take it from me. I’m not judging you, or even criticising you, in fact, I admire your endeavour, and especially the courtesy and civility with which you’ve conducted yourself here (I hope we’ve reciprocated). No, what I’m trying to impress upon you, is that the outcome of this discussion changes nothing about the reality of this life and the fundamental truths you will one day have to face. Whether you accept that you will one day have to face them or you nonchalantly disregard that eventuality as an untruth, it changes nothing in terms of the reality. All it will affect is the way you will chart your own course." With all due respect, I have no reason to fear the Islamic hell any more than I have to fear the Christian hell. To quote the venerated Carl Sagan, "I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking." My friend, I have been down that path, that way of thinking, and life style, it was miserable for me. As a free thinker, I am libetated and my ability to interpret the world around me is not crippled by my faith. I am satisfied with the way I have "charted me course". To quote atheist Dan Barker, "After all, it would be stupid to ignore something like a god. What kind of a game would that be? I would have a million questions to ask this deity. But, the evidence is not strong enough. I am not going to prostitute my intellect to take that leap of faith, to believe something that is merely wishful thinking because it makes me have a chance of going to heaven and being eternally coddled by this deity, who has a vanity that's so insecure that he has to threaten me with eternal hell if I don't believe in him? I mean, what kind of respect could I give to a deity like that?" My purpose in questioning the suffering in the world and how it can be inextricably linked with a merciful and just creator (this is perhaps how I should have phrased my original post) is not to show how Islam is false but to get a better understanding of how Islam reconciles or attempts to reconcile this "problem". If something does not make sense to me, if sufficient evidence has not been presented to me, and even if the idea were true it would disturb me greatly, it is perfectly rational for me not to embrace it. The people on a message board being unable to answer my questions would not make me assume that there is not a single Muslim in the world capable of giving me a suitable explanation. I know it would also be foolish for me to assume that Islam is untrue on the basis of this discussion alone. I will try to respond to the rest of your objections in e-mail. For those of you who had post that I did not address, I will try to address them tomorrow afternoon or night. Thank you all for your time. This is turning out to be a very active and thought provoking discussion. This subject will probably not be the end of it. The Muslim who referred me to this page, Meraj, has also requested that I ask about difficulties and problems that I find in the Qur'an and hadith as well. I leave you all with this quote to consider. "Anything you don't understand, Mr. Rankin, you attribute to God. God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it." - Dr. Arroway in Carl Sagan's Contact

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
08/31/01 at 15:44:31
Nazia: Thank you for that website. I'll try to read that chapter when I have the time and do more research on the subject. My question would be, even if this can be shown, wouldn't it be a huge leap in logic to conclude from that information, that an omnipotent and omniscent being has always existed (that has never made any sense to me)? Even if that could be fully explained and proven (an attempt would seem to me to be an exersize in futility), it still does not prove that Allah exist. It could be that God created the universe then went out for lunch in a pink Cadillac and never did anything with earth again (similar to the Deist option). Arshad and Eleanor: Arshad, that does it, I'm convinced that a God exist because of your example of Turkey (j/k). My question is: What if a devout Muslim, who did not agree with the government's change in policies, was trapped under a huge pillar and suffered a slow and painful death that lasted for five days? What could be the benefit of his suffering since he or she is already a devout Muslim? What if the vast majority among the 50,000 killed did not agree with the government's actions either? I've read the dialogue between Bob and Yunus before and imaginary one's along that line. I am aware of all the claims for scientific miracles in the Qur'an made by Zakir Naik, Jamal Badawi, Shabir Ali, and Gary Miller. The fact still remains that if there is one, only one, error in the Qur'an, it is automatically not what Muslims claim it is (completely the revelation of a perfect being). There are many traditions in the Qur'an for which there is no supporting evidence of available that I'm aware of (angels, birds killing humans with stones, Solomon and the Jinn, Shaytan, Ibrahim building the Kabbah, babies speaking in their cribs (Isa ibn Maryam), and a plethora of others). Until Muslims (or non-Muslims) can provide sufficient evidence for these stories, the rational observer has no reason to believe that they are anything more than legends of apochryphal origin or myths. Even if it can be shown that the Qur'an makes some claims that are in agreement with modern science, it does not follow that Allah revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad by default or that Allah exist at all. Keep in mind (Nazia, Abu, Eleanor, and Arshad) that, "extraordinary claims REQUIRE extraordinary evidence" (Hume's dictum). I hope you have a good weekend and thank you for your contributions.

Re: Questions from an atheist
amatullah
09/01/01 at 12:29:06
Bismillah and salam, First off i want to admit that this discusion is getting abit over my head, perhaps it is the language more than approach. Regardless, I just have a few (ok many) but they are simple things to it. mr Jermy, welcome and we are glad you are asking these questions. In my experience, the people who gave the most (honest)struggle to come to faith, and asked alot of complex questions, shows their intelligence and after Islam truly amazing character and commitment to Islam more than even born most Muslims commitment. -If you sincerely want to prove Allah exists look around you, if you let your self see, you definately alway will insha'Allah see the borhan (proofs). On the other hand, if you want to disprove that he exists, you may not always by able to. This is because Allah guides those who chose him. If you move a bit to him he come alot closer to you. It is one of his mercies. -suffering is not pointless. There is great great wisdom in it. We don't even fathom all of it. When we are TESTED, it erases our wrong doings, elevates our rewards in heaven, purifying the soul, helps us appreciate the "other" side of the situation/being. -Allah's mercy covers every single creature. His wrath only some. it is serves as EXAMPLE for us to see what happens becuase of sins. Wallahi I tell you the truth when I say I can see it in my own face the sin. I am one of those people who immediately, alhemdulilah, make the connection. If i talked about someone, i will get a canker sore. I normaly leave when there is bad gossip. Last two weeks, one time i stayed I have a ear infection. It is not always because of this reason that people suffer, but it is partialy it. The sahaba if they didn't get sick or a bang or hurt even in minor ways, they used to worry that Allah was with holding his mercy from them. It is a REMINDER to repent and to give thanks, whtehr the suffering is on us or on others. People often want justice in this life, and Allah does it in these ways. And on a bigger scale on judgement day. -That was one way to look at it. Another part of the wisdom which we are able to realize is that these things that you mention make for difference. From abilities to monetar to health, etc. This is very much needed for the wheel of life to stay in balance. Each person fulfills a different role in society and spirituality. We are links in a chain, to need each other, to exist, these differences must be. -Allah IS all wise/all knowing. In terms of the deformity and illness you mention, He said in the Quran that he created us in the best form for our lives. These serve to PROVE that what he said it is true. When you live with someone who has down syndrome, it is bound to open your eyes up to this fact. I konw someone who is missing only a tiny tip of the finger, which stops him now from the intericate work. A girl in school was missing tip of tongue and couldn't talk properly. Al7emdulilah. He said he will put proofs and signs for us who want to see them. It is also from his mercy that the ones who are given these roles enter jannah right away or at least easier insha'Allah. -you said: "This theodicy does not explain the benefit of the suffering of non-Muslims who did no harm to others prior to Islam reaching them" Scholar of Quran (i can't think of the verse at the moment)say that on day of judgment, these people will be sent a messenger right then and there and they will be given a chance to chose a creator or deny him and then judged with what they did with their lives accordingly. And how they used their talents, pains, health, time, money, etc you said: "There are still numerous types of suffering that have not yet been shown to have a greater good (i.e. mud slides burrying homes, children being born with birth defects, and animal suffering" This may sound silly or morbid to a soft person, but isn't death a blessing? wouldn't we be over populated and dying of other reasons whether it is violence of survival or unsanitery?  It can be a population CONTROL of the earth. What kind of life would it be if there were no such things as natural disasters? I always feel that Allah allowing earth for to fighting back for all the harmful technologies and modernization that is happening on it. We try to create to live longer and easier, regardless of what we harm. Allah lets us know there are things beyond OUR CONTROL. like death. Please think about this last point deeper on your own if you can. All the things that are happening in nature, whether it be the techtonic plates or whatever do seem to be fulfilling the prophecy. It is all coming to a closure of a planned plot, if you take the time to study it. Or if from Allah's mercy you have baseera. -"many of the beliefs held by theistic religions cause conflict and intolerance" This is what people tend to use when they are selfish. If me and my husband and you and your family and our neighbour, all decided to live in one room or house, there is bound to be conflict and disagreement. We will never fully agree on everything. But we will try and if we are lucky we might come to an agreement of house rules or chores that may not make each of us totally happy but able to live with each other. for example, I may not want to do dishes after lunch everyday if i lived alone, but i would have to make this work. That is what religion is. A set of rules but not made by us, and therefore if followed we will be all happy in co-existence. islam is tolerant. He didn't put us hre and leave us, we have guidlines on the outside and signs and inside he put a sense inside that helps us chose. -I just want to relate a story: in class a professor said we can't see Allah, therefore he doesn't exist. A studen got up and asked does this mean that you don't have a brain? (if you learn how to look, and yes it is something you can develop with his help, you will see it). Many years ago, they knew they had a heart because it felt happy and hurt,etc without knowing for a fact what we know about its existence today. Don't let time bind you. -Another story, the great Imam Abu Hanifa once had to go meet a group of atheist to discuss this same issues. He was late to the meeting. When he arrived they felt frustrated and asked him what held him up. He said stopped his way, people were gathered to watch a ship load and unload cargo and fill up on fuel and everything. They said so? He said it was amazing scene! the ship had no captain or controls. They said already you are telling lies! How can a ship do all that without a captain or any types of control. He said Sub7an Allah! You claim a simple mere ship has to have that but all this earth and what is on it doesn't? They were stunned. he then walked out. -You keep saying how can a merciful being create such pain and evil. Does this mean that the person who invented the light bulb was luminous?!! I think you are right in thinking that we can make some conclusions about the creator from his creations, but there is a big difference between their characteristics. Yes the person who made the light bulb last week had some knowledge of glass, how to make it round, electircal wiring, etc But that is not all he is or he knows. -Let's take that example, a step further ok? Would you say the person who created that light bulb had prior knowledge that this particular kind needs a little bump so that it sits in the hole of the fixture in your home? Wouldn't you say that he also knew that another kind is a twisty one and had the perfect measurements to a milli to make it so that it fits that part? Why do we have eyes when we are in our mothers wombs? don't you think the creator knew we will need them to put to use in the next step? or ears? whey don't we just feel the vibration? How come a snake feels vibration not ears? When we send someone off to space, we send the right kind of food with them, the suit, the air even. How did we get prepared in the womb for the next step AND the next step, ie this world including its foods air ,etc for us??? someone must have known our most complex needs. is it just nature? -Does anything come about from nothing? does nothing create something? Obviously no right? If you follow this argument through in your head you are bound to come to the logical conclusion that everything here in nature is created by something. A something that was not created but existed always and always will. -Anyhow, that's all for now. But i have to tell you that the way you discard some miracles as myths worries most. I feel like that not because it is hard to prove that did happen. I don't feel a need to do that for anyone, Allah said it happened in a book (which holds stories from the past and information about the future)that has other proven miracles of present day science, so the past i believe as well. But it breaks my heart because this kind of lack of faith brings a sadness/heaviness for lack of better words to the person. Don't you see or heard of modern day miraculous turns and changes and events in teh life of average people?

Re: Questions from an atheist
bhaloo
09/02/01 at 00:01:49
Hello Jeremy, [quote]There are many traditions in the Qur'an for which there is no supporting evidence of available that I'm aware of (angels, birds killing humans with stones, Solomon and the Jinn, Shaytan, Ibrahim building the Kabbah, babies speaking in their cribs (Isa ibn Maryam), and a plethora of others). Until Muslims (or non-Muslims) can provide sufficient evidence for these stories, the rational observer has no reason to believe that they are anything more than legends of apochryphal origin or myths. [/quote] Who else could have written the Quran?  That's the one question I have for you Jeremy.  Science was not as evolved back then.  The numerous examples I showed, including the it-is-turth.org website with opinions by non-Muslimc scholars in their pespective field demonstrate that the knowledge in the Quran was so many centuries advanced.  The phenomena that we can easily observe, see and verify should be sufficient proof.  If there was even ONE mistake in anything in the Quran then we could conlcude that it was not from the Creator.  Because one can not easily verify all of the phenomena does not mean that it does not come from the Creator.  Let me try to give an example. Let's suppose you are flying a spaceship with another man and you have no clue what the controls do, although you guess the steering wheel makes the ship go left and right.  The man seated next to you tells you that he knows everything about this ship and tells you how to manuever, how to turn on the thrusters, and how to land.  You verify each of these things he has mentioned and are feeling pretty confident.  He then tells you that this button ejects the fuel cargo, this one ejects you, this one is the self-destruct button, this one makes the ship invisible but you waste a lot of fuel, etc.  These commands he tells you, you do not verify, but you believe him because everything else he has told you is the truth and therefore you have no reason to doubt him.  Had he told you even ONE lie, you would have been unsure weather he knew what he was doing.  And that is the analogy I leave you with. About the earthquakes and innocent people suffering, I was going to give an explanation, but I wanted to verify something in one of my books here and make sure I am not saying something incorrect.

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
09/02/01 at 12:59:00
slm Thank you Jeremy for replying so promptly and for staying with us on this discussion. Alhamdulillah (Thank God) we are all benefiting from it. For me it has reconfirmed my beliefs. [quote] My question is: What if a devout Muslim, who did not agree with the government's change in policies, was trapped under a huge pillar and suffered a slow and painful death that lasted for five days? What could be the benefit of his suffering since he or she is already a devout Muslim? [/quote] If this Muslim was devout then they will receive untold reward after death. A devout Muslim is not afraid to suffer or to die. [quote] Even if it can be shown that the Qur'an makes some claims that are in agreement with modern science, it does not follow that Allah revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad by default or that Allah exist at all. [/quote] Then who revealed the Qur'an? Who wrote it? Remember Muhammad was illiterate. He memorised it and his companions momorised it too and wrote it down. Which one do you think was the scientist, centuries ahead of the rest of the world? I'd be interested to see what you think! Give me a convincing answer and you never know, I might believe you. But I'm not afraid Jeremy, cause I know you can't give a convincing answer. Just let down the wall and see the truth. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Questions from an atheist
Saleema
09/02/01 at 21:13:46
Ibrahim building the Kabbah Until Muslims (or non-Muslims) can provide sufficient evidence for these stories, the rational observer has no reason to believe that they are anything more than legends of apochryphal origin or myths. What makes Ibrahim (A) an apocryphal legend? His building the Kabbah? Why would a building, which is still standing today, which everyone confirms is ancient, and the Muslims claim that Ibrahim (A) built it could be a myth? Who do you think built the Kabbah then? Do you have a belief contrary to this? If so, what is it? I can see that you are an educated person and must have taken history classes at one time or another. Tell me--what they tell us in history are always facts, or are they sometimes conjectures about certain events and people? Even if time has not left us any hard evidence of certain people and events does not mean that those people never existed and that those events never took place. I know that you do not believe in the Quran and therefore would not believe whatever was written in it. But a lack of evidence does not suggest that something never happened. It may well have happened, we just do not have any solid proof of it. For example, just because we do not know of any other life out there in the universe does not mean that there isn't any. I do not mean to say that there is no evidence that Ibrahim (A) did not built the Kabbah. Perhaps there is solid proof out there, I wouldn't know, since my knowledge is very little. However, I do know that there is indirect evidence that Ibrahim (A) did built the Kabbah. And I will follow up on this thread with it later. Right now, time is short and I'm doing a million other things. By the way, for clarification please do tell me if you believe that Ibrahim (A) was a real life figure. From your writing I gather that you seem to believe that he was a real life figure *but* that you just do not believe that he built the Kabbah. I may be wrong, so please clarify. And if you do believe that Ibrahim (A) was a real life figure, what do you base this belief on? Take care, looking forward to hearing from you soon.  :) [wlm]

Re: Questions from an atheist
Saleema
09/02/01 at 21:21:28
(angels, birds killing humans with stones, Solomon and the Jinn, Shaytan, babies speaking in their cribs (Isa ibn Maryam) That's like going from point A to point E. These are extraordinary things, miracles, etc, and therefor hard to prove with direct evidence. That much is obvious right? How can we jump to discussing those subjects without first exhausting our study on whether God exists or not? Let's take this point by point, shall we? First I'm going to tackle Ibrahim (A) and then I will try with the help of others to address these issues above but it would be better I think to answer them after the issue of God's existence has been exhausted. [wlm]

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
09/03/01 at 20:22:42
Once again, thank you all for your posts. I will try to address them one by one. Amatullah: "If you sincerely want to prove Allah exists look around you" This is a form of the design and complexity argument for the existence of God. My mother uses it often by requesting the same thing, except she substitutes the word Jesus for Allah. I have found no more reason to believe that the God worshipped by Muslims created this world than I do to believe that Sham-sham or a Deistic God created the world. I would agree that the universe is complex but that does not indicate that Allah created it. It would be fallacious to say so on that alone. "Suffering is not pointless. There is great great wisdom in it. We don't even fathom all of it." Exactly, we don't fathom all of it. The person who claims that there is some positive benefit to all types of suffering has an obligation of proving that. Unless I made a mistake, I remember writing that there are many types of suffering that seem pointless. I wrote seem because I am allowing you to show me how the certain types of suffering that I mention have a point. "Scholar of Quran (i can't think of the verse at the moment)say that on day of judgment, these people will be sent a messenger right then and there and they will be given a chance to chose a creator or deny him and then judged with what they did with their lives accordingly. And how they used their talents, pains, health, time, money, etc" If they deny their Creator, will they be tormented and tortured for it? If so, why did they have to suffer in the first place rather than an angel coming to them and preaching to them (which would probably make them more likely to "accept their Creator" than immense pain)? "You keep saying how can a merciful being create such pain and evil. Does this mean that the person who invented the light bulb was luminous?!! I think you are right in thinking that we can make some conclusions about the creator from his creations, but there is a big difference between their characteristics." What I meant by asking such a question is to point out that I find the existence of such types of suffering incompatible with the main theistic concept of God and what is claimed about his actions. I was not arguing the "how did something perfect create imperfection?" argument. You say that you and others are saddened when someone rejects claimed miracles as myths a priori. I don't reject them a priori, I said that I did not believe them because I am not aware of objective evidence for them occuring. If you or another peson could direct me to that evidence and it was proven to be credible I would be open to accepting it. Folks, my concern is the truth and the facts. I am willing to accept available, unquestionable evidence. Personal experiences (whether the person is Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or Bahai) are hardly communicable to me and it's not admissable evidence. Arshad and Eleanor: Once again your posts raise similar points (you know, they say, "great minds do think alike" ) so I will address both of them at the same time. Arshad and Eleanor, to answer your question, I'm not going to pretend to know who wrote the Qur'an. I am just stating that it is a leap in logic to say that a book came from a divine being on the basis that it has scientific statements in it ahead of its time. I do not know Arabic so I honestly do not know whether these new miracle claims are nothing more than the "miracle of reinterpretation" or if they are genuine. As I pointed out, there are many claims made in the Qur'an which I have seen no evidence for presented. The burden of proof is on the person who claims that such things as a realm where people are tortured exists. These are things that I find hard for a rational person in the 21st century to accept as truth.   Eleanor, I did not say that the devout Muslim would be afraid. I just wanted to know why Allah would cause that pain to him or her if they were already devout. What would be the benefit if they were already devoted to Allah? You wrote that I should just let down the wall and see the truth. I am not going to take a leap of faith, I have done that before. I would be taking a leap of faith if I were to embrace Islam now. I am quite satisfied with using reason and not having to attatch myself to dogma that I am uncomortable with as a humanitarian. Mujahida: You wrote, "By the way, for clarification please do tell me if you believe that Ibrahim (A) was a real life figure. From your writing I gather that you seem to believe that he was a real life figure *but* that you just do not believe that he built the Kabbah. I may be wrong, so please clarify. And if you do believe that Ibrahim (A) was a real life figure, what do you base this belief on?" That's a good question. No, I don't believe Abraham was a historical figure. I think one reason many disillusioned Christians embrace Islam is that they never question beliefs about other Biblical figures besides Jesus. I should have first wrote that Muslims should give sufficient evidence for Ibrahim's existence before giving evidence that he built the Kabbah. Thanks for pointing that out. The reason I brought up multiple things that the Qur'an mentions that I have seen no evidence for is that the Muslims I was responding to claimed that there are multiple scientific claims in the Qur'an that were ahead of their time. I was retorting by showing multiple things in the Qur'an that non-Muslim scientists would probably consider fabrications.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Saleema
09/03/01 at 18:29:22
That's a good question. No, I don't believe Abraham was a historical figure. Thank you for the clarification. However, you did not answer the other part, which is, *why* don't you believe that Abraham was not an historical figure? [wlm]

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
09/03/01 at 20:19:18
"*why* don't you believe that Abraham was not an historical figure?" I don't believe that Abraham was a historical figure : ). I know you meant, "why do you lack a belief in a historical Abraham?". I lack a belief in a historical Abraham because I have seen little to suggest that the story of this figure is more than a legend. I haven't done much research on the subject so anyone with evidence that Abraham was an actual, historical figure is welcome to contribute to this discussion with knowledge that the burden of proof is on them. Thanks and have a good night.

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
09/04/01 at 05:15:49
slm Hi all! I've picked out a few points from Jeremy's recent post. [quote]Arshad and Eleanor: Once again your posts raise similar points (you know, they say, "great minds do think alike" ) [/quote] Why thank you! [quote] I'm not going to pretend to know who wrote the Qur'an. I am just stating that it is a leap in logic to say that a book came from a divine being on the basis that it has scientific statements in it ahead of its time.[/quote] Is it a leap of logic to assume that the Qur'an was written by a higher being than the human? Or what in your opinion *is* a logical explanation? What would make sense to you? If we do leave the notion of God out of the picture for the moment, then who or what do you think revealed the Qur'an? Or do you think it just materialised out of the air? Seriously Jeremy, you've obviously read a lot of books by philosophers and atheists. Do they offer no alternatives or do they just dismiss everything as "unproven"? [quote]Eleanor, I did not say that the devout Muslim would be afraid. I just wanted to know why Allah would cause that pain to him or her if they were already devout. What would be the benefit if they were already devoted to Allah?[/quote] The benefit, Jeremy, is *reward* -  a higher status in Paradise. If the Muslim is devout, then they will spend the five days praying, getting nearer to God and getting ready to meet him. They will ask for forgiveness for all their sins etc etc. You can't just put Muslims into two sections. Devout and non-devout. There is always room for improvement. No one is a perfect Muslim. So you can't say "oh well, they were going to heaven anyway..what's the point of them suffering.." No one knows if they are going to heaven or not. The best we can do is hope, and pray. [quote]You wrote that I should just let down the wall and see the truth. I am not going to take a leap of faith, I have done that before. I would be taking a leap of faith if I were to embrace Islam now. I am quite satisfied with using reason and not having to attatch myself to dogma that I am uncomortable with as a humanitarian.[/quote] That's fair enough. I just said that because for me it was a hard process to get rid of this fixed image in my mind of Muslim=Bad. Thanks to the Western Media I had a stubborn picture in my mind of terrorism, fanaticism, female oppression etc. And even if at 12noon a Muslim had said "It's daytime" I would have said "No it's nighttime, I have the freedom to say what I want, I'm not letting you oppress me". See what I mean? And obviously this isn't the case with you, but I wasn't sure. AAaanyways, looking forward to your next post already, and looking forward to the other members' input. wasalaam eleanor (one half of the great minds in the Madinat)

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
09/04/01 at 20:48:13
Eleanor, You raised some interesting points and I'll try to respond to the best of my ability. "Is it a leap of logic to assume that the Qur'an was written by a higher being than the human? Or what in your opinion *is* a logical explanation? What would make sense to you? If we do leave the notion of God out of the picture for the moment, then who or what do you think revealed the Qur'an? Or do you think it just materialised out of the air? Seriously Jeremy, you've obviously read a lot of books by philosophers and atheists. Do they offer no alternatives or do they just dismiss everything as "unproven"?" Yes, it is a leap of logic. Because there are some things in the Qur'an that non-Muslims have been unable to explain does not mean that it has a supernatural source by default. Christians use the ressurection as proof that God exists without realizing that they must first prove that God exists before saying that the ressurrection account in the gospels is entirely accurate. Similarly, Muslims often think that because there are some alleged "amazing" verses in the Qur'an that it means that it was revealed by Allah. Muslims must prove that Allah exists and then prove that angels (because Muslim narratives say that the Angel Gabriel delivered the revelation from Allah to Muhammad) exists before rational people can take their claims seriously. The most rational explanation I have read is the "multiple authors" theory which has been used by several apostates from Islam. Most of the theories proposed by Christian missionaries and apologists have been down right absurd. I admit that this is a question I need to do more research on (any suggestion of who authored the Qur'an would be uneducated) and that I definantly don't have all the answers. I was pointing out that it is fallacious to jump to the conclusion that Allah is the author of the Qur'an when you haven't given sufficient evidence that Allah exists. The point I was making with my example of the devout Muslim is that it is conceivable to me that any being would put someone through such immense pain and suffering for that being just to reward them or prove a point to them. For instance, the Book of Job in the Bible now seems like a portrayal of a cruel God that kills innocent people and livestock just to prove a point to Satan and test Job. "That's fair enough. I just said that because for me it was a hard process to get rid of this fixed image in my mind of Muslim=Bad. Thanks to the Western Media I had a stubborn picture in my mind of terrorism, fanaticism, female oppression etc. And even if at 12noon a Muslim had said "It's daytime" I would have said "No it's nighttime, I have the freedom to say what I want, I'm not letting you oppress me". See what I mean? And obviously this isn't the case with you, but I wasn't sure." I appreciate you recognizing that. I am well aware that terrorism is un-Islamic, that the hijab is for the purpose of modesty and for men to get to know women for who they are (instead of "loving" them because of carnal attraction), that FGM and infanticide is un-Islamic, and I have made an effort to understand the Muslim way of life and Sharia. However, there are many laws and regulations that Islam dictates that I have serious problems with and I will hopefully address those later. I applaud you for rising above the many misconceptions people have to learn the position of the other side. I hope this answers your questions and I look forward to your retort.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Saleema
09/05/01 at 00:02:51
Muslims must prove that Allah exists and then prove that angels (because Muslim narratives say that the Angel Gabriel delivered the revelation from Allah to Muhammad) exists before rational people can take their claims seriously. Is that arrogance I read in the lines above? People who believe in God are not rational? [wlm]

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
09/05/01 at 05:17:24
slm Jeremy, in a couple of ways I see what you are saying: [quote] Because there are some things in the Qur'an that non-Muslims have been unable to explain does not mean that it has a supernatural source by default. Christians use the ressurection as proof that God exists without realizing that they must first prove that God exists before saying that the ressurrection account in the gospels is entirely accurate. Similarly, Muslims often think that because there are some alleged "amazing" verses in the Qur'an that it means that it was revealed by Allah. Muslims must prove that Allah exists[/quote] To take an example; if you were to say for instance that aliens brought the Qur'an to the earth then I'd look for some proof first before I believed you. If you couldn't show me any hard proof then I wouldn't be able to accept your claims. It's kind of sad for you that you don't have the same *feeling* as us. I know this is going to sound really weak and I'm not using it as an argument, but I *feel* Allah. The time after I pray the obligatory prayers, when I stay sitting and pray my own prayers, I really feel a direct connection with Allah. Sometimes I've started crying. Now I don't need a refutation from you on this one. It's obvious that you've never looked around you and *knew* that God was there, so this cannot be used as a part of the discussion unfortunately. Again, unfortunately, I'm not as well-read as many of the other members of this board. A lot of them were at the ISNA convention over the weekend. Maybe now that they're back they can get into this with some more facts and evidence. [quoteThe point I was making with my example of the devout Muslim is that it is conceivable to me that any being would put someone through such immense pain and suffering for that being just to reward them or prove a point to them. For instance, the Book of Job in the Bible now seems like a portrayal of a cruel God that kills innocent people and livestock just to prove a point to Satan and test Job.[/quote] (you meant *in*conceivable right?) Allah is our creator. He can do whatever he wants with us. It's not for us to say whether he is cruel or not. But you will find in many more cases only his mercy. Anyway, that is not the issue here. If you were to believe in Allah, and feel him, then you would submit to him and his will, whatever that may be. So the belief has to come first. Then you can work on your judgements. I'd be interested to read some responses from some more of the "seasoned" members here. wasalaam eleanor

Re: Questions from an atheist
amatullah
09/05/01 at 10:28:53
Bismillah Jeremy: The first point you answered you only took part of the arguement. I am saying if you want to prove he exists, you can. If you suspect His existence is not proven, if you are sincerely trying to find it out to understand you will insha'Allah. BUT if you try to disprove it, you will not be able to. This has some validity to it. A simple example: Abu Lahab was really terrible person at the time of the prophet who hurt alot. And he is mentioned in the quran as being in the hell fire. As much as he hated Islam all he had to do was say asshahada (become muslim)even if it was by words to disprove alquran. But he couldn't. He remained how he is till his death. A simple challenge: instead of asking for proof why don't you try to disprove it? It will challenge you to come to the truth in you own terms and way of thinking about life. Get a copy of the quran study and it and find out if there is anything wrong in it or at the end try to write something like it. This was a challenge from Allah that no one ever will be able to. Most people, they either never finish the task or become muslims. If it might have been written by a group of people or whatever then the promises would not have been fulfilled. you said "I wrote seem because I am allowing you to show me how the certain types of suffering that I mention have a point." i htought i had done that. You said: "What I meant by asking such a question is to point out that I find the existence of such types of suffering incompatible with the main theistic concept of God and what is claimed about his actions. I was not arguing the "how did something perfect create imperfection?" argument. I am sorry if i misunderstand but isn't the same thing? you are saying instead if he is so merciful how can painful things happen? andn what is claimed about his actions? we have a range of thing mentioned in the quran and in his 99 names that we know. They are not all mercy. he avenges the oppressed, he is the judge, he is the compeller, the mighty, the maker, the giver of form, the subduer, etc. the exalter, the reckoner, etc What is a priori? :) it's not in the dictionary. you said that "I did not believe them because I am not aware of objective evidence for them occuring." So how do you explain them? if they exist and you cannot explain them in terms of science does it make them non existent or don't believe them? don't you see sometimes in your own life or someone around you that it is impossible to deny? By the way please read Kuhn's I think his book is called the scientific revolution. It is a sociological book that really opened up my eyes 7 years ago about how science is really not the only nor the as accurate a method to measure life as scientist claim it to be. It talks about paradigms and shifting and changing truths, about how much it is affected by social and psychological issues, about the fallacy of the scientific progress.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
09/07/01 at 20:27:25
Greetings, I'm glad it's Friday. Sorry for not addressing these posts in the most timely manner possible, but I had a lot of studying to do for school. Amatullah: "The first point you answered you only took part of the argument. I am saying if you want to prove he exists, you can. If you suspect His existence is not proven, if you are sincerely trying to find it out to understand you will insha'Allah. BUT if you try to disprove it, you will not be able to. This has some validity to it. " I have done a substantial amount of research and I have found no reason to believe that Allah is anything more than the product of human imagination. I will continue to research by reading the Qur'an (as you suggested), investigating new arguments for the existence of God, and reading the works of Muslim "defenders of the faith". I think my current position (lacking a belief in a deity) is a rational one because I have not been presented a completely coherent reason to believe in a deity. As I said, I am open to change my position if it is shown that Allah or another deity exists. "A simple challenge: instead of asking for proof why don't you try to disprove it? It will challenge you to come to the truth in you own terms and way of thinking about life. Get a copy of the quran study and it and find out if there is anything wrong in it or at the end try to write something like it. This was a challenge from Allah that no one ever will be able to. Most people, they either never finish the task or become muslims. If it might have been written by a group of people or whatever then the promises would not have been fulfilled." In your request you commit the fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. I am not obligated to disprove the existence of Allah any more than I am to disprove the abominable snow man, the Easter bunny, Mother Goose, etc. The burden of proof is on the positive claimant. I lack a belief in God, but I do not deny the possibility of God existing. Therefore, no burden of proof rests on my shoulders. On the Qur'anic challenge: I find it interesting that the Qur'an says, after making the challenge to produce a surah like it, "and ye can never do it." What makes this interesting is that even if someone did write something 10x greater than the Qur'an in Arabic, Muslims would still not accept it on the basis that the Qur'an (which Muslims attribute to an infallible deity) has already said that they could not produce something like it. Maybe if I learn classical Arabic one day I'll be able to produce a surah like one in the Qur'an but I doubt it would change a Muslim's opinion because Muslims have, as Shlomi Tal points out, "sealed the verdict." You are right about my argument, they are essentially the same type, but I was speaking of observable sufferings that are not caused by humans as opposed to the philosophical question of whether a perfect being could produce imperfection. "we have a range of thing mentioned in the quran and in his 99 names that we know. They are not all mercy. he avenges the oppressed, he is the judge, he is the compeller, the mighty, the maker, the giver of form, the subduer, etc. the exalter, the reckoner, etc" I know of the 99 names of Allah. The assertions made about Allah and their apparent inconsistency with observable occurrences (or lack of what we can observe) and reality lead me to conclude that they are theological paradigms conceived by fallible humans. One thing that I wanted to remind Abu, and something that we all must keep in mind, is that even if you can come up with a logically consistent argument for the existence of a deity, it doesn't mean that the deity necessarily exists. To quote Massimo Pigliucci, a Darwinist, in his debate with the venerated Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, "You can come up with a lot of internally consistent logical systems that nevertheless have nothing to do with reality. You do it all the time when you play a computer game. You create an entire universe that is logically consistent, that has rules, and has behaviors that are predictable, and you can play with it – but it doesn't exist in the physical world. So the fact that something is logically consistent does not mean that it is real, the two are completely  different things. That something that is logical must therefore exist is a fallacious argument." "What is a priori?  it's not in the dictionary." If I may ask, which dictionary are you using? For the way I used the word, my New World Webster's dictionary defines (the third definition) "a priori" as,  "before examination or analysis." "So how do you explain them? if they exist and you cannot explain them in terms of science does it make them non existent or don't believe them? don't you see sometimes in your own life or someone around you that it is impossible to deny?" There are plenty of outrageous/extraordinary assertions that people make on a regular basis that I can not explain. Could you please give me some examples of what you say is, "impossible to deny"? It would be fallacious for me to jump to the conclusion that they are supernatural by default on the basis that I can not explain them. "By the way please read Kuhn's I think his book is called the scientific revolution. It is a sociological book that really opened up my eyes 7 years ago about how science is really not the only nor the as accurate a method to measure life as scientist claim it to be. It talks about paradigms and shifting and changing truths, about how much it is affected by social and psychological issues, about the fallacy of the scientific progress." It sounds interesting, I'll have to check it out sometime. Eleanor: Since I have already summarized my response to your post in my previous comments on personal expierence, I'll just say that I did mean inconceivable and that an UNMISTAKABLE experience with Allah would definantly change my position. Saleema: "Is that arrogance I read in the lines above? People who believe in God are not rational?" In my humble opinion, I think you misconstrued my meaning. I was refering to the claim that Allah is the author of the Qur'an, without first giving evidence for Allah or angels or that an angel named Gabriel exists, etc. I meant that a rational person would not accept that claim without a more rational argument to support it. I apologize if I unintentionally implied what you concluded from my post.

Re: Questions from an atheist
JustMe
09/09/01 at 01:50:57
It says in the Qur'an that you can explain the truth to someone but they still won't believe in it.  Ultimately it has the search for truth has to do with Faith.   As for all those people suffering in needless pain and tyranny out there well I feel really bad for them but there's always somebody worse off than you.  It says in the Qur'an that in some cases oppression is worse than death itself.  Someone could elaborate on this maybe.  I think thus far we've been on a second or fourth dimensional perspective in logic or insanity.  And to Jeremy-  Are You Serious?

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
09/09/01 at 12:30:14
"And to Jeremy-  Are You Serious?" About what? Could you please be more specific? If you're asking if I really have found no sufficient reason to believe that the Muslim God exists or that the reasons I have read and heard to explain various types of human suffering to be insufficient, then yes, I am as serious as a heart attack : ). How about you? Can you say that the Qur'an is the infallible word of God and that Allah exists while keeping a straight face?

Re: Questions from an atheist
JustMe
09/09/01 at 23:14:02
No, I don't mean 'Are You Serious' like that and sorry for not being specific when I said it.   what I mean is Are You Serious?  from the standpoint of having a sense of fear from your Creator.  Don't tell me You're just You and that's that.  YOU are powerLESS and God is the Power.  How can you think yourself out of it.  You are trapped.  You have no Choice but TO BELIEVE AND SUBMIT AND SURRENDER and Love that God Unconditionally.  (whether or not He causes earthquakes and/or sweeping hurricanes etc.) Peace, Maaz

Re: Questions from an atheist
solehah
09/10/01 at 22:01:39
Salaam I am new to the message board and what caught my interest in this thread is the flame appearing from the envelope. I thought to myself "Wow such responses an atheist can evoke :) " After reading the post and the replies, I can understand why the heat. Ramblings aside, I have two response towards this post.  My intention is not to provide the logic-sound, mistake-proof answer you are looking for that will clear all your doubts because I sincerely believe that the truth is a blessing from Allah. AND, I also believe that the answer is not for everyone (of course this is another discussion altogether heh heh). I think maybe what I can do is to help u think along a different line and to consider alternative perspectives :) >>One of the reasons why I lack a belief in the God believed in by the world's three major theistic religions is the abundance of apparently pointless suffering in the world. When I first read this paragraph I am automatically reminded of Dostoevsky's book "The Brothers Karamazov".  To give an extremely brief summary the main characters in the story are two brothers who are polaric. A priest and a devil advocate. They had a conversation one night and thats what the Devil Advocate ask the Priest. How can a benevolent God exists in a world where there are just too many seemingly senseless suffering especially to innocents.  Have u read the book ? Try reading it if not for its existential discussion for its fine literary style. >>If your answer is the mystery argument, that Allah does things that we just can't understand but that it somehow benefits us, please don't waste your time because it is simply put, a cop out. It's intellectual dishonesty and you're all capable of more than that. LOL..I doubt that everything that we ascribe to Divine Knowledge is labelled as mystery. Actually, I have some reservations abt the "intellectual dishonesty" accusation.  I think if you were to examine the epistemological history of knowledge and truths , you will realise that some of the accepted knowledge and truths are based on foundations which at best can be called inductively strong.  However, such knowledge and truths are accepted readily. There are many uncertainties in the world, and yet we have to choose a reality.  For example, you call yourself an atheist. By virtue of that title, one assume you do not believe in a supreme being. OK :) To some the existence of God has not been validated while to others the absence of God has not been validated. Some feels that the explanation for creation and existence via Divine Intervention is the one while others prefer the Big Bang theory.   The theory of evolution and the Big Bang is fraught with inconsistencies and there are also unexplainable phenomenon. Yet it is the best science can offer, for the time being.  The Quran, on the other hand, is filled with scientific knowledge that has yet to be proven false or wrong.  The question then arise.  Why would you consider basing your beliefs on a theory that is proven inaccurate rather than on something that has not been proven wrong ?  Have u wondered what is the rationale behind your decision ? I known my lengthy discourse has not at all answered any of your questions but there is a good reason for this.  To question, one must want to know.  To know one must open one's mind..and one's heart.  The question u ask is answerable but its not an easy enterprise.  The question deals with the essence of God and Divine Will.  To know that u must first accept the possibility of a Divine existence.  Have u ? My apologies to any if through my scribblings I have offended. Insya'Allah, one seek to improve at each milestone. Wallahualam

Re: Questions from an atheist
hermit
09/12/01 at 06:56:28
Assalam-u-Alaikum, Hmmm...You've raised some good points. Why the suffering? Well, why go through an exam? To test your knowledge(in this case faith). This like a training exercise. Temporarily you'll get worn out but it will pay off. Before I leave, could explain to me how life began if God doesn't exist (I wanna know the sceintific veiwpoint of this, really!)?

Re: Questions from an atheist
amatullah
09/12/01 at 10:59:45
Bismillah Jeremy, About "priori" i looked it up in dictionary.com which doesn't have it. i only use it if i am online. THanks for teaching me though. Can i share a thing i found amusing even though it may not be so relevant first? My mother and I were discussing something that has to do with this thread. She has studied philosophy and librarian studies. She said that it was said when you begin to study Philosophy, it will make you doubt God and reject him. And when you study it for years, for life, it makes you find and believe in God. *"I will continue to research by reading the Qur'an (as you suggested), investigating new arguments for the existence of God, and reading the works of Muslim "defenders of the faith". -I really hope so Jeremy. I know it must be difficult but wallahi i swear once you get a glimpse of the truth it is all worth it. It is hard evne for muslims to follow a self-descipline religion but the rewards we get back even in this life, would make others envious if htey knew how we sometimes get to feel. It is a truely most beautiful light and deep better than good thing. -May we be of any aid? suggest some sites or particular articles? *"I am open to change my position if it is shown that Allah or another deity exists." This in fact is an argument of non believers that was mentioned in the Quran many times. But the thing is the groups that asked for solid proof that can be disputed are the ones who got the worst collective punishment from Allah when it was given to them then they later decided to rebel. I have a feeling(this is just my hunch) that if people didn't believe before they see the proof, they won't even see the proof, or they will then they will find something else that they think MIGHT be going on or wrong,etc. A part of faith is to believe (not blindly, mind you some do. But strong faith is from what YOU can see. empircaly) For instace, certain kinds of footprint tell you, a horse walked here, a certain lustre and density of rocks can tell you it was volcanic, etc. *"Maybe if I learn classical Arabic one day I'll be able to produce a surah like one in the Qur'an but I doubt it would change a Muslim's opinion because Muslims have, as Shlomi Tal points out, "sealed the verdict." -Here is what I don't get. Why are athiest saying we have already sealed it? Is it just us that can judge the validity of the book? Why haven't they even tried? And then give it to western scholars and scientists and fortunetellers and whomever you want and tell us about the past and future with such wisdom, soemthing that includes information about every single thing. Yes it is true. Every single thing in life is mentioned, and in the best Arabic. The quran was a miracle. Each miracle comes in the same nature of the thing that excels in the civilization at the time, like mosa and magic. ok. ARabs were beyond belief at the time before the quran. They had almu3alqat (big poems) in their house of worship ka'aba. And here the Quran came and stunned them. How can anyone of us today after the decline of the arabic language even in the arab world reproduce it? But more importantly whey don't they try? Even as a group effort? *"but I was speaking of observable sufferings that are not caused by humans as opposed to the philosophical question of whether a perfect being could produce imperfection" -so are you saying you weren't asking why such a merciful God would create suffering? hmm ok so Was your question just why is there suffering? If so then could you tell me as someone who doesn't believe that there is or isn't a god what do you attribute suffering not caused by humans to? If it is just nature with both its forces of life and death, productive and destructive, etc Then are humans born begnin or malicious? *"The assertions made about Allah and their apparent inconsistency with observable occurrences (or lack of what we can observe)" -PLease give me an example of this. I think any name you can observe, if you look. If you decide you don't want to attribute the observation to God then that is a different story. Ceator? Aren't you here? How did you, parents, great grands, etc come to be then? -If I hold a pen in my hand and tell you it's a pen and i will make a line on a paper, you will believe me that it is a pen. In your heart a truth (that it is a pen)which is supported by evidence. If I say that it is a snake, you will not believe me. If i bribe or threaten some will say it is a snake but they won't even truely believe it or they will get themselves confused. Truth is always supported by evidence and guidance and clarity. That is why Allah has sent messangers. They come not with money or military powers or anything of that sort, but clarity and evidence. That is why the people who believed with Muhammad saws they did not change their minds from the threats (even torture and killing) or the bribes, why is that Jeremy? Didn't they see something? Don't the millions of muslims who come later still see the same something? I hope you don't mind if this gets lengthy, but i had mentioned seeing all around you, empirical method to prove Allah is our creator. I am not sure that everyone knows how to look, so i just want to mention, how I have learnt. First to say the least the complexities do point at a creator, then we have to talk about who might it be. Allah has made the whole universe full of proofs but we only see it as such when we study it. So really the number of proofs is the number of creatures at least! You haven't answered me before: does nothing create something? is anything created from nothing? can nothing do something? Were you here 100 years ago? So there must be a creator that made it all happen. Do you have a problem with that part? that there must be a creator. Now who is the creater? us? why don't we re-create or continue to? is it nature? let's go back to the light bulb example, characteristics in a creature should indicate something about the creator. For example, s/he must have had glass to make this bulb. right? he has the ability and methods to make it round, he has some metal and previous knowledge of where it will go and how it iwll fit right? He knows about electrical wires and which ones go where and do what. So the EXISTENCE of these thing in this object showed us the proof and much knowledge about its creator even though he or she may not be in the same room with us. Same applies to a human. We have markings that show He knew the details. If a simple thing, as a match box, they HAD to have known exact measurements to make it fit in the cover perfectly. Did the creator (whether it be nature or Allah) know each person's skin? Did the one who give you eyes when you were in a world of darkness in teh womb, did He not know you were going to a world that has light an you will use them for vision? Even if we had evolved, we had certain things in place that wouldn't possibly be a coincidence. A simple tissue that covers the esophegus(spelling?), if food goes down by mistakes, things are on guard to try to fix it, they work together to cough it up. An infection is similar. How did they know to begin with to do what is best for them internally? This tiny tissue i mentioned, is in the exact right place, in the exact right size...does that all seem like coincidence? What do we see when someone lacks those thigns? they suffer Jeremy. So thank Him for giving you and creating you and knowing you will b born, and eat from here and breathe from there and equipped you to protect yourself if something goes wrong. So does the creator know or not? the one who makes two eggs, one equipss its inhabitant with wings to fly and the other egg with tail and the (*look up word) to swim. how can nature know the difference? -Like i said before, why do astronauts wear a suit then? to suit their new environment right? a different pressure, gravity, temp, everything. So the person (most likely group effort by very amazing scientific scholars and engineers)who designed the suit had knowledge of these details about our needs and the space we go into. Doesn't that mean that the creator gave you lungs when you didn't need them in the womb know that you will be breathing through a different method soon? The word "Lungs" over simplifies a whole system, which science still is studying and making new research on all the time. So how can our bodies on this Earth not be an evidence that there is a creator and that he is knowledgable? Also if it was nature and trial and error and survival of the fittest wouldn't you ahve found great discrepencies between people? As a woman, i say i am sure each mother would carry to way different terms one's body would make her ready in a month while another in 5 years. Is it a coincidence that all of our body temperatures is 37 degrees? this amazing scale in our bodies that cools us in summer by sweating and in winter by burning the food, is just that a coincidence by nature and it caught on for everyone? Why wouldn't it differ between people in different areas? What would that do to the evolution of creatures? isn't there a middle, a uniform, a balance? There seems to be toooo many intrinsic and internal scales working in us to be just nature without any knowledge. This is true even in the growth scales, there has to be proportioned growth of meat to bone, etc. How do all the cells grow at certain rate? Who fixed the setting? Why is the deviation a cancer?Does this clear up Truth for you? Why do other parts growth has to stop at a certain point? like your teeth? Tell me what social assistance program, or governemnt or company decide to issue that every mothers body after feeding you as a fetus once the chord is cut, that her breats fill up with milk to feed you what is best for you at that age? What compassion did the creator have to keep you in need of food that still stems from teh same source so that you ease into a new life. What wisdom made You the infant need a more varied diet to start developing and walking? What president what country what united nations can make that happen? It is only your provider that makes it happen, makes you happen. Have you seen a suckling baby? THey look like they took a dr's degree in how to suck! Who taught them when they never did it before? Please tell me if you do believe that there is a creator at this point or not? *"I have done a substantial amount of research and I have found no reason to believe that Allah is anything more than the product of human imagination" -If you agree, then I want to begin to talk briefly about the Quran. if it was a group of people who wrote the quran, then how did they konw about the stratosphere, the way a fetus develops, that mountains have roots bigger than them, charcteristics of the deepest of ocean waters, the various kinds of wind, the various kinds of clouds, gravity, what passes genetic material, how did they know about the orbits of various objects in the skies or that of earth, that the sun burns is luminous and the moon reflects light? -where did plant seeds come from? At one point EArth was barren according to science right? Where did they come from then? and how does the same water make seeds grow into different plants. *"even if you can come up with a logically consistent argument for the existence of a deity, it doesn't mean that the deity necessarily exists." -erm why are we bothered with this thread then? ok. logic is one thing and real is another, i understand. But if it is illogical it won't make sense to you and if it is logical, it also may not? So what proves real? only our limited observation? or a western vain and narrow vision oriented approach is the best suited method? *"There are plenty of outrageous/extraordinary assertions that people make on a regular basis that I can not explain. Could you please give me some examples of what you say is, "impossible to deny"?" -gut feelings, faith healing, for example a brother here is a retired neurolsurgeon. and he is knowledgable masha'Allah about his field and excelled, he now has a nerve in his back giving him the worst pain. He has tried just about everything from surgery to acupuncture, etc. when he is in total agony, he says when a couple of pious brothers recite quran on it, it lessens the pain about 60%. Maybe others have better examples of some way more ordinary but real connecting experiences. -Please tell me...do you ever see karma at work? To me that makes for "impossible to deny" material when  I see it. so honestly do you?

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
10/05/01 at 14:59:39
Hi, I apologize for the delay in posting. I know that my responses aren't as strong as they should be, but I still have a plethora of things to learn about evolution, cosmology, and philosophy. Maaz: "what I mean is Are You Serious? from the standpoint of having a sense of fear from your Creator. Don't tell me You're just You and that's that. YOU are powerLESS and God is the Power. How can you think yourself out of it. You are trapped. You have no Choice but TO BELIEVE AND SUBMIT AND SURRENDER and Love that God Unconditionally. (whether or not He causes earthquakes and/or sweeping hurricanes etc.)" Ya Allah, Astagfirullah! Alhamdulilah! What was I thinking? But seriously, I don't believe in your deity and if I claimed that I felt that way, it would be intellectually dishonest. I'm not going to prostitute my intellect unless I'm under the influence of drugs, I've been completely brainwashed, et cetera. Solehah: "Ramblings aside, I have two response towards this post. My intention is not to provide the logic-sound, mistake-proof answer you are looking for that will clear all your doubts because I sincerely believe that the truth is a blessing from Allah. AND, I also believe that the answer is not for everyone (of course this is another discussion altogether heh heh). I think maybe what I can do is to help u think along a different line and to consider alternative perspectives" Let me guess, you're alluding to the ayah in the Qur'an that says Allah leads astray whom He will? I think I have considered alternative perspectives, but that's an entirely different story. "When I first read this paragraph I am automatically reminded of Dostoevsky's book "The Brothers Karamazov". To give an extremely brief summary the main characters in the story are two brothers who are polaric. A priest and a devil advocate. They had a conversation one night and thats what the Devil Advocate ask the Priest. How can a benevolent God exists in a world where there are just too many seemingly senseless suffering especially to innocents. Have u read the book ? Try reading it if not for its existential discussion for its fine literary style." Thanks, it sounds interesting, I'll keep that in mind.   "LOL..I doubt that everything that we ascribe to Divine Knowledge is labelled as mystery. Actually, I have some reservations abt the "intellectual dishonesty" accusation. I think if you were to examine the epistemological history of knowledge and truths , you will realise that some of the accepted knowledge and truths are based on foundations which at best can be called inductively strong. However, such knowledge and truths are accepted readily." The mystery argument I'm referring to is usually an argument used when a theist is backed into a corner and simply must admit that they can't explain why the deity they believe in (their theological paradigm) would allow/cause certain types of suffering. It doesn't mean that the deity is non-existent, it just leaves us with the question we began with and a deity that we can't explain. Of course we are limited in our abilities and there are some things we simply can't explain temporarily, but that doesn't mean we should use wishful thinking or believe something is true by default. "There are many uncertainties in the world, and yet we have to choose a reality. For example, you call yourself an atheist. By virtue of that title, one assume you do not believe in a supreme being. OK To some the existence of God has not been validated while to others the absence of God has not been validated. Some feels that the explanation for creation and existence via Divine Intervention is the one while others prefer the Big Bang theory." My position, as I have stated throughout this thread, is that it is possible for a deity to exist, but at this time I do not believe that a deity or deities exists for numerous reasons. I don't recall asserting that the absence of God has been validated. As I'm sure you are aware, there are many theists who accept the Big Bang theory. "The theory of evolution and the Big Bang is fraught with inconsistencies and there are also unexplainable phenomenon. Yet it is the best science can offer, for the time being. The Quran, on the other hand, is filled with scientific knowledge that has yet to be proven false or wrong. The question then arise. Why would you consider basing your beliefs on a theory that is proven inaccurate rather than on something that has not been proven wrong ? Have u wondered what is the rationale behind your decision?" As you said, the theory of evolution and the Big Bang theory are the best that science has to offer. I don't remember claiming that I accepted the Theory of Evolution in full or that I accept the Big Bang theory. As far as I know, you assumed that. The origin of life is something that I am uncertain about and I am aware that there are multiple things that Darwinists are unable to explain, but I'm not going to start basing my beliefs on a book or ideology filled with things that people must take on faith alone. If there's a specific claim that evolutionists are unable to provide evidence for, then I'm not going to believe it. By the same token, if the Qur'an makes outrageous/extraordinary claims that no evidence is provided for, then I don't feel obligated to believe them either. I'm not going to use blind faith with the Qur'an or the theory of evolution. "I known my lengthy discourse has not at all answered any of your questions but there is a good reason for this. To question, one must want to know. To know one must open one's mind..and one's heart. The question u ask is answerable but its not an easy enterprise. The question deals with the essence of God and Divine Will. To know that u must first accept the possibility of a Divine existence. Have u ?" I hope I have given the impression through my posts that I am open minded, but at the same time I am a skeptic and require evidence. I have said in this thread that I think it is possible for a deity to exists (or trillions for that matter). Hermit: "Hmmm...You've raised some good points. Why the suffering? Well, why go through an exam? To test your knowledge(in this case faith). This like a training exercise. Temporarily you'll get worn out but it will pay off." This (no pain, no gain) would explain why a deity would cause some types of pain and suffering, but what about the infant with cystic fibrosis that dies at the age of three months in a mushrik's arms and the mushrik never learns about Islam? What would be the point of that child's and the mother's suffering? "Before I leave, could explain to me how life began if God doesn't exist (I wanna know the sceintific veiwpoint of this( really!)?" There are several explanations that science has offered on the origin of life on earth. The explanation supported by the most evidence is chemical evolution. Evolutionists assert that the complexity of life as we know it, is due to a blind process known as natural selection. Amatullah: "Can i share a thing i found amusing even though it may not be so relevant first? My mother and I were discussing something that has to do with this thread. She has studied philosophy and librarian studies. She said that it was said when you begin to study Philosophy, it will make you doubt God and reject him. And when you study it for years, for life, it makes you find and believe in God." Who knows? Maybe that's what will happen to this mulhid, but for the moment, the more I learn, the more doubt it casts on the existence of the deity worshiped by the adherents of the world's three major monotheistic faiths. "May we be of any aid? suggest some sites or particular articles?" Sure, if there's anything you think I should read, feel free to recommend it. "This in fact is an argument of non believers that was mentioned in the Quran many times. But the thing is the groups that asked for solid proof that can be disputed are the ones who got the worst collective punishment from Allah when it was given to them then they later decided to rebel. I have a feeling(this is just my hunch) that if people didn't believe before they see the proof, they won't even see the proof, or they will then they will find something else that they think MIGHT be going on or wrong,etc. A part of faith is to believe (not blindly, mind you some do. But strong faith is from what YOU can see. empircaly) For instace, certain kinds of footprint tell you, a horse walked here, a certain lustre and density of rocks can tell you it was volcanic, etc." So this is how it works? People with honest inquiries get tortured and tormented in a place called "jahannam" because they make an honest mistake. If I find something to be incredibly absurd (whether it's in the Qur'an and hadith or not), why should I believe it? "Here is what I don't get. Why are athiest saying we have already sealed it? Is it just us that can judge the validity of the book? Why haven't they even tried? And then give it to western scholars and scientists and fortunetellers and whomever you want and tell us about the past and future with such wisdom, soemthing that includes information about every single thing. Yes it is true. Every single thing in life is mentioned, and in the best Arabic. The quran was a miracle. Each miracle comes in the same nature of the thing that excels in the civilization at the time, like mosa and magic. ok. ARabs were beyond belief at the time before the quran. They had almu3alqat (big poems) in their house of worship ka'aba. And here the Quran came and stunned them. How can anyone of us today after the decline of the arabic language even in the arab world reproduce it? But more importantly whey don't they try? Even as a group effort?" Atheists are saying you have already sealed it (the verdict) because even if you felt that someone had composed something that was ten times better than the Qur'an, you'd still feel (and I'm just guessing here) obligated to stick to your religion. There may be some Muslims living in Muslim countries who honestly think that they could write something better, but they fear that they would be labeled apostates and killed if they said they could. If a group tried in somewhere like Iran or in the Taliban ruled part of Afghanistan, they'd probably be killed for blasphemy or apostacy. "PLease give me an example of this. I think any name you can observe, if you look. If you decide you don't want to attribute the observation to God then that is a different story. Ceator? Aren't you here? How did you, parents, great grands, etc come to be then?" Ok, the Qur'an claims that Allah will punish the disbelievers with hell fire. Is hell something that's observable to you, me, or anyone else? As far as I know, the evidence for such a place and such a fire is nill. "so are you saying you weren't asking why such a merciful God would create suffering?" No, that's basically what I'm saying, just in a different format. Sorry for being so ambiguous. "If I hold a pen in my hand and tell you it's a pen and i will make a line on a paper, you will believe me that it is a pen. In your heart a truth (that it is a pen)which is supported by evidence. If I say that it is a snake, you will not believe me. If i bribe or threaten some will say it is a snake but they won't even truely believe it or they will get themselves confused. Truth is always supported by evidence and guidance and clarity. That is why Allah has sent messangers. They come not with money or military powers or anything of that sort, but clarity and evidence. That is why the people who believed with Muhammad saws they did not change their minds from the threats (even torture and killing) or the bribes, why is that Jeremy? Didn't they see something? Don't the millions of muslims who come later still see the same something?" There are probably some idiots out there who you could convince that you wrote with the snake : D. Can you provide evidence that Allah exists or that He sent messengers? So what if someone is willing to be tortured for a belief. That doesn't make it true. According to Christian traditions, Jesus' disciples and the early Christians suffered horrible punishments for not denouncing their belief in a ressurrected savior, does that make Christianity true? I don't think the "authentic" hadith, trusted by millions of Sunni Muslims, are reliable historical documents so such stories could very likely be fabrications, in my humble opinion. "Allah has made the whole universe full of proofs but we only see it as such when we study it. So really the number of proofs is the number of creatures at least! You haven't answered me before: does nothing create something? is anything created from nothing? can nothing do something? Were you here 100 years ago? So there must be a creator that made it all happen. Do you have a problem with that part? that there must be a creator. Now who is the creater? us? why don't we re-create or continue to? is it nature? let's go back to the light bulb example, characteristics in a creature should indicate something about the creator. For example, s/he must have had glass to make this bulb. right? he has the ability and methods to make it round, he has some metal and previous knowledge of where it will go and how it iwll fit right? He knows about electrical wires and which ones go where and do what. So the EXISTENCE of these thing in this object showed us the proof and much knowledge about its creator even though he or she may not be in the same room with us." Oh really, Allah has made his signs clear? "Does nothing create something?" I wouldn't know. : D "Is anything created from nothing? can nothing do something? Were you here 100 years ago?" I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know, and no, as far as I know. Yes, I do have a problem with your conclusion. You are making a huge leap in logic. Who says that there is a conscious, omniscient, and omnipotent designer? You point to something and say it's obvious that Allah created it. I say you should speak for yourself. Also, how do you know it's a creator and not creators? How do you know that trillions or sextillions of agents weren't involved in the creation? All praise is due to Al-Uzza, Al-Lat, and Manat! How can you deny their handiwork in creation? "Same applies to a human. We have markings that show He knew the details. If a simple thing, as a match box, they HAD to have known exact measurements to make it fit in the cover perfectly. Did the creator (whether it be nature or Allah) know each person's skin? Did the one who give you eyes when you were in a world of darkness in teh womb, did He not know you were going to a world that has light an you will use them for vision? Even if we had evolved, we had certain things in place that wouldn't possibly be a coincidence. A simple tissue that covers the esophegus(spelling?), if food goes down by mistakes, things are on guard to try to fix it, they work together to cough it up. An infection is similar. How did they know to begin with to do what is best for them internally? This tiny tissue i mentioned, is in the exact right place, in the exact right size...does that all seem like coincidence? What do we see when someone lacks those thigns? they suffer Jeremy. So thank Him for giving you and creating you and knowing you will b born, and eat from here and breathe from there and equipped you to protect yourself if something goes wrong. So does the creator know or not? the one who makes two eggs, one equipss its inhabitant with wings to fly and the other egg with tail and the (*look up word) to swim. how can nature know the difference?" Is that so? Is it really obvious that we have the marking of a Great Designer? People used to point out how magnificent the eye was and that it was obvious that there HAD to be an intelligent designer behind it. But guess what? Modern science has shown that the eye is actually poorly designed. The optic nerve and blood vessels run across the retina of the eye. We could see a lot better if our eyes were designed (by a blind designer of course) like the eyes of squid. To quote Victor J. Stenger in his article, "Intelligent Design", "Just as we must continue to educate parents and teachers on the facts of evolution, we must also inform them that science has by no means confirmed the traditional belief in a created universe with humanity at its center. Indeed, if anything science indicates quite the opposite. Astronomical observations continue to demonstrate that the earth is no more significant than a single grain of sand on a vast beach. While a created, human-centered universe can probably never be ruled out, nothing in our current understanding of cosmology and physics requires it. Furthermore, we are beginning to understand the possible physical mechanisms for the appearance of matter from nothing, and for organization without design. Evolutionists have successfully refuted the usual argument for design that is grounded on the intricacy of biological life. They have convincingly demonstrated, to any rational person, that complexity sufficient for life could readily have emerged naturally in the primeval chemical stew." The are multitudes of examples of poor design in nature (in both plants and animals). I think that weakens the credibility of your "complexity" and intelligent design arguments. BTW, should I praise Allah when I see someone with down syndrome because He designed them with that potential and be glad that I wasn't assigned such a condition. There are some amazing things in nature, but there's no reason for me to make a leap and logic by saying that there's obviously a Great creator behind them. The fossil record doesn't neccessarily indicate a Great Design, it does indicate trial and error. "Like i said before, why do astronauts wear a suit then? to suit their new environment right? a different pressure, gravity, temp, everything. So the person (most likely group effort by very amazing scientific scholars and engineers)who designed the suit had knowledge of these details about our needs and the space we go into. Doesn't that mean that the creator gave you lungs when you didn't need them in the womb know that you will be breathing through a different method soon? The word "Lungs" over simplifies a whole system, which science still is studying and making new research on all the time. So how can our bodies on this Earth not be an evidence that there is a creator and that he is knowledgable?" If I wanted to use wishful thinking then yes, I'd say it obviously points to the existence of Baal, Al-Lat, Zeus, Yahweh, or Allah. However, if we want to construct a rational argument we can't say, "wow, that's really complex and amazing", and then conclude, "whoever says this isn't designed by an intelligent creator must be nuts!" It's a leap in logic and your jumping to conclusions. Not only that, the human body (and the bodies of many other animals) could have been designed much better. "As a woman, i say i am sure each mother would carry to way different terms one's body would make her ready in a month while another in 5 years. Is it a coincidence that all of our body temperatures is 37 degrees? this amazing scale in our bodies that cools us in summer by sweating and in winter by burning the food, is just that a coincidence by nature and it caught on for everyone? Why wouldn't it differ between people in different areas? What would that do to the evolution of creatures? isn't there a middle, a uniform, a balance? There seems to be toooo many intrinsic and internal scales working in us to be just nature without any knowledge. This is true even in the growth scales, there has to be proportioned growth of meat to bone, etc. How do all the cells grow at certain rate? Who fixed the setting? Why is the deviation a cancer?Does this clear up Truth for you? Why do other parts growth has to stop at a certain point? like your teeth? Tell me what social assistance program, or governemnt or company decide to issue that every mothers body after feeding you as a fetus once the chord is cut, that her breats fill up with milk to feed you what is best for you at that age? What compassion did the creator have to keep you in need of food that still stems from teh same source so that you ease into a new life. What wisdom made You the infant need a more varied diet to start developing and walking? What president what country what united nations can make that happen? It is only your provider that makes it happen, makes you happen. Have you seen a suckling baby? THey look like they took a dr's degree in how to suck! Who taught them when they never did it before? Please tell me if you do believe that there is a creator at this point or not?" I get your point, the human body, and in particular the female body, is extremely amazing. What I don't get is that you assume that this has to be the result of a creator and not natural selection? Why should I assume that there is a supernatural force, for which I know of no evidence for, working in the universe? Why should I  Millions of animals die slow and painful deaths, millions of animals are born deformed or with harmful genetic disorders, and millions of animals are poorly designed (from their reproductive parts to their eyes). I'm sorry, but I have seen no reason to think that there is a creator or there are creators in your post. Wow, a baby is able to suck milk out of his or her mother's nipple with excellently proficiency! That convinces me that a deity exists and that someone HAD to teach them to suck. I think you're grabbing at straws here, but I've never seen a baby and its original reaction to being breastfed so I couldn't tell you why it performs the task of sucking so sufficiently : D. I can't explain the complex body functions shared by women that you described, but I am interested in discovering the reason behind it. It would be fallacious for me to think that because evolutionists are unable to explain some natural processeses that theistic creation claims are true by default. We used to assign a God of the Gaps to everything we couldn't explain and it seems that some of us still do. To quote Carl Sagan in his excellent book The Demon Haunted World (which I highly recommend), "Instead of acknowledging that in many areas we are ignorant, we have tended to say things like the Universe is permeated with the ineffable." "if it was a group of people who wrote the quran, then how did they konw about the stratosphere, the way a fetus develops, that mountains have roots bigger than them, charcteristics of the deepest of ocean waters, the various kinds of wind, the various kinds of clouds, gravity, what passes genetic material, how did they know about the orbits of various objects in the skies or that of earth, that the sun burns is luminous and the moon reflects light?" I can't confirm whether these are vague Qur'anic verses that have been blown WAY out of proportion (and are actually inaccurate) or whether these are actually scientifically accurate verses since I don't know Arabic. I hope you are aware that there are hafiz in the Muslim world who think that it would be blasphemous for someone to say that the earth is not flat and that there are many other religions who have used vague verses in their scriptures to show that their texts are scientifically accurate. Some apostates and critics of Islam have said that Muslims are misinterpreting these verses to make them fit modern scientific knowledge. I honestly don't know. "erm why are we bothered with this thread then? ok. logic is one thing and real is another, i understand. But if it is illogical it won't make sense to you and if it is logical, it also may not? So what proves real? only our limited observation? or a western vain and narrow vision oriented approach is the best suited method? gut feelings, faith healing, for example a brother here is a retired neurolsurgeon. and he is knowledgable masha'Allah about his field and excelled, he now has a nerve in his back giving him the worst pain. He has tried just about everything from surgery to acupuncture, etc. when he is in total agony, he says when a couple of pious brothers recite quran on it, it lessens the pain about 60%. Maybe others have better examples of some way more ordinary but real connecting experiences. " I never said I would believe in a deity just because a Muslim could explain why their deity would cause every single type of suffering. I started this thread to know the justification for certain types of suffering by Muslims after being told to post here by a Muslim. I was saying that just because you can come up with a rational argument for something, it doesn't make it exist. It's true that science is limited, but that doesn't change the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As you probably know, people often mistake pseudo-science with science. *picks up newspaper and reads Astrology column* In your example of the Neurosurgeon, what exactly does that prove? What if someone said that having people read the Bible to them makes their pain lessen by 75%? What should we then conclude? Personal experience is not admissible evidence. Though we disagree on what the evidence implies (or doesn't imply), I think we can agree on at least one thing. The universe is amazing and it is something we can view with awe. We may disagree on what methods to use, but we both have a concern for the truth. "Please tell me...do you ever see karma at work? To me that makes for "impossible to deny" material when  I see it. so honestly do you?" It depends on what you mean by karma. Could you give me some example of karma in action and how it is evidence for a deity? Just to add, Buddhists believe in karma and most Buddhists don't hold a belief in a deity. To all the Muslims who are living in areas where your safety and well being is threatened, my thoughts and concerns are with you. While I and many others may have qualms with some parts of the Islamic faith, that in no way would justify any violent attacks, agression towards, or insults to innocent Muslims because of what occured on September 11th. If anyone insults, threatens, or harms you because they think you are some how linked to these terrorists (and you aren't) or that you express their sentiments (and you don't), they are ignorant scum and I condemn their behavior. *To the moderators: why don't you find my Jahiliya beliefs and touting of Muslim atheletes to be humorous? (j/k, I made that last modification a few minutes bebore reading your instant message) Sorry if the Manat-u-akbar or Bismi-Lat.... thing deeply offended anyone. ;D [Edited by Admin]

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
10/08/01 at 20:00:02
Solehah, These are the two verses I am guessing you draw your conclusions ("I also believe that the answer is not for everyone" ) from, "We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom." 14:4 "As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe." 2:6

Re: Questions from an atheist
amatullah
10/08/01 at 20:48:19
Jeremy, "for the moment, the more I learn, the more doubt it casts on the existence of the deity worshiped by the adherents of the world's three major monotheistic faiths" This sentence you have written has deterred me for to discuss my very limited knowledge and approach any further. I really wish you would take the whole subject up with a scholar in person. Really it might be the best thing I could have said to begin with. It might be the best thing you would ever do for yourself. I do not want to partake in making someone repel from the truth by my own ignorance or inablity to express myself sometimes. Astaghfirullah if I have done that. I also ask Allah to guide you to the right path and make it easy for you and make you content and a guiding light for others yourself.

Re: Questions from an atheist
solehah
10/08/01 at 21:23:35
Jeremy, [quote]These are the two verses I am guessing you draw your conclusions ("I also believe that the answer is not for everyone" ) from[/quote] (I want to respond to your response on my response to your posting but since your response is an earnest response that includes thought provoking issues, I shall give myself the luxury of time to craft a suitable response to that response of yours.  I hope you can guess by now I am trying hard to add lightness to a heavy situation :) ) Actually, emmm no, and a slight yes :) Sometimes, it amuses me when we think that we can know and understand about anything and everything just because we can know and understand about some things. ( I think this is a fallacy of contraposition although I might be wrong because Logic 101 is done waaayyyyyyyy long ago ). One example is Man's constant desire to pinpoint the essence of God and the accompanying attributes and characteristics. We start with the very basic, that is wujud. God exists.  God exists, has always existed and will always exists in His existence.  So the poor chap tries to make sense of this fact. But can he ?  What is your guess Jeremy ? Do you think that the fellow will eventually comprehend the nature and essence of God's existence ?  Gimme an answer and we can have a pseudo-didactic exchange heh heh. When I say the answer is not for everyone, at one level maybe I mean what you implied with those two verses.  Yes, revelation is God's prerogative and only He can decide to whom that revelation shall be bestowed upon. One can of course speculate as to the reasons God is being selective but I believe it is because we are given hidayah on things based on our ability to make do with that revelation and based on our ability to comprehend those things. The second level of meaning when I say that the answer is not meant for everyone, is simple.  Not everybody can understand one thing in the same manner and some cannot understand at all what others could. I used to have a friend who is fond of going around telling people that they should wake up. That they should think deep about issues and make intellectual assessment of their lives.  She was rather scornful of people who seems to take pleasures in the simple things in life and who does not go beyond thinking about what is the best sauce to go with that kipper. I asked her this, "What makes you think that all of us are to know the same things and are to think in the same manner and to think in the same manner about the same things ?".  I used the example of a mutual friend of ours who is a very nice girl who happens to have a simple outlook on life.  So I asked the former, " If you take away the protective shield from her eyes and force her to confront the ugly realities of life, can you also give her the defence to guard herself from the repercussions of such revelation ?".  She was very quiet.  Because she knows that her view of the world would transform the latter from a nice carefree girl to one very scared individual. See Jeremy, I believe that not all knowledge (thus all answer) is for everyone because we all are of different psyche and psycological make up.  This question you have raised, maybe you have the ability to comprehend the issue and hopefully someday find the answer but can you honestly say ALL will be able to cope with the tremendous and rigorous questioning and debating ? Of course the snob-intelligentsia will say the truth still stand and one has to seek the truth regardless of.  LOL I find that incredibly naive and condescending. OKlah, I dunno whether I have answered your question or not but I do have to go. ( Have to see a client on adoption matters ). Till the next episode of As The Madinat Turns.....peace to mankind, Amin.

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
10/08/01 at 21:42:49
"This sentence you have written has deterred me for to discuss my very limited knowledge and approach any further. I really wish you would take the whole subject up with a scholar in person. Really it might be the best thing I could have said to begin with. It might be the best thing you would ever do for yourself." Ok, I enjoyed our dialogue, you raised some thought provoking questions. I'll be searching for answers to some of the questions you raised about some natural processes. What kind of scholar do you mean? Someone like Yusuf Qaradawi? For now, I think Abu Khaled will keep me on my toes and provide some excellent food for though, as you have. "I do not want to partake in making someone repel from the truth by my own ignorance or inablity to express myself sometimes. Astaghfirullah if I have done that. I also ask Allah to guide you to the right path and make it easy for you and make you content and a guiding light for others yourself." I think you've expressed yourself well and have sufficiently gotten the point across that you think that the complexity and order in the world we see around could only have been the result of creation by a divine source. Now I have Christians and Muslims praying that God will show me the true path :D. All I can tell you is that Islam was very attractive and appealing to me when I was a disillusioned Christian. It seemed to put the worship of God into its pristine form and in a proper perspective (concepts like tawhid and taqwa). However, the more I researched Islam, the more I became disturbed at some of its practices, restrictions, traditions, and beliefs. I will address some of those in a future post on some problems I have with the Qur'an and hadith. Thank you for your time and contributions to the dialogue. Solehah, I should have a response to your post by the end of this week, thanks.

Re: Questions from an atheist
eleanor
10/10/01 at 12:05:37
slm As an aside: I have been taking some classes this week on electro-technology. We've been learning about electricity, how it's made etc. Well, when the professor explained that electricity is the flow of electrons which leave the atom, he also added, "we can't see this of course and we also can't prove it, but we can assume from the effect that we see, that this must be the cause". You came to mind immediately Jeremy because the first thing to spring into my mind was "is this not a leap of logic?". Just to assume that's how it's done because we can't offer a better explanation? What do you think? wasalaam eleanor

Re: Questions from an atheist
Fth016
10/10/01 at 19:43:47
Solehah, >One example is Man's constant desire to pinpoint the essence of God and the accompanying attributes and characteristics. We start with the very basic, that is wujud. God exists.  God exists, has always existed and will always exists in His existence.  So the poor chap tries to make sense of this fact. But can he ?  What is your guess Jeremy ? Do you think that the fellow will eventually comprehend the nature and essence of God's existence ?  Gimme an answer and we can have a pseudo-didactic exchange heh heh.< I think the "very basic" is a bit presumptuous, but let's talk hypothetically for a while. The "poor chap" should first ask exactly what you mean by God. If you don't clarify what you mean by God, the fellow could ask things like, "why is it neccessary for a God to always exist?" "what if there were two Gods of equal power and they destroyed each other at the same?", or even "what if trillions of Gods exist?". I think the fellow will need to know a lot more than that if he's ever going to actually going to comprehend God's nature and essence (perhaps you could help the chap with some more clues). I found the alternative explanation you gave for your position to be intriguing. About your friend that was trying to make people think, is she someone who seems happy and satisfied with life? >This question you have raised, maybe you have the ability to comprehend the issue and hopefully someday find the answer but can you honestly say ALL will be able to cope with the tremendous and rigorous questioning and debating ?< No, definitely not, I think a lot of people want to live in a fantasy world and have their lives dictated by charlatans. These people are most likely unaware of the amazing, exciting, and fascinating things in actual reality. Eleanor, >You came to mind immediately Jeremy because the first thing to spring into my mind was "is this not a leap of logic?". Just to assume that's how it's done because we can't offer a better explanation? What do you think?< I can't give you an excellent reason why quantum physicists make this "assumption", but I'm sure it is the result of a panoply of experiments. I'll research some more on that. Here is a site on how we "know" atoms exist: antoine.fsu.umd.edu/chem/senese/101/atoms/faq/are-atoms-real.shtml and a site on the sharing of electrons: www.fnal.gov/pub/inquiring/questions/electronstotheratoms.html Thank you both for your time.
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