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WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 02:50:19
Assalaamu-alaikum I just wanted to know, do any of you sisters train in any kind of martial arts? Do you engage in any form of self defence training? If so what kinds? And how many of you would be able to defend yourself from an attack from a potential rapist of mugger? Would you just submit to them, or would you be prepared to fight back? I read a hadith which said that a woman MUST defend her honour against a rapist, even if it means having to kill the attacker in the process, so then the question comes up, how many of you would be prepared to follow this hadith? I aint asking how many of you are killers, just if your prepared to defend yourselves at any cost to the attacker, and not just prepared to, but WOULD you be able to? If not why not?

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
eleanor
09/08/01 at 03:24:31
slm It's something none of us want to think about and Insha Allah it will never happen, but you have to be prepared in case it does happen. I'm not going to go into detail here but I always imagined that I would fight him off if I could, by going for the weak spots. I also made up my mind that if anyone ever tried to abduct me either by gun or knifepoint then I wouldn't go. I'd tell him "you'll have to kill me here, I'm not going". Over the last 10 years or so in Ireland an astounding amount of young women have simply disappeared without a trace. This was what got me thinking along these lines and I decided that I couldn't allow this monster to put my family through the misery of not knowing where I was. If he wanted to kill me he'd have to do it there and then because I wouldn't move. wasalaam eleanor

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 05:07:57
Salaam Eleanor "It's something none of us want to think about and Insha Allah it will never happen, but you have to be prepared in case it does happen." Yes, you MUST be prepared, but what have you done to be prepared? Do you tain in martial arts or any kind of self defense and strenght training? Because if not, you will be easy prey for these pervs. Even the most basic training, practised over and over, combined with a bit of strengh training will enable you to fight of an Attacker, as most run off when the victim puts up a fierce struggle. "I'm not going to go into detail here but I always imagined that I would fight him off if I could, by going for the weak spots." Yes but have you trained to do this? If not then you should, muslim women have the most hostilities directed towards them, and many people see them as weak and passive, based on stereotypes, and so attackers are more likely to go for you! So sister, get them mits on and pound the heavybag :)

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Mahmoodah
09/08/01 at 06:10:22
salam, i thought abt this the 1ce, and i thought xactly like sis Eleanor, i thought, yea kick the guy where it hurts, lol!!! neways, wat would sum1 really weak do???  how would sum1 wearing skirts kick??? wa-salam

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 06:35:37
Salaam "wat would sum1 really weak do" Simple, you stick your fingers right into thier eyes! Of hit them hard on the upper lip, or punch them in the eyeball, remeber a punch without a glove on hurts a LOT, even if its not powerful, yet remeber only pratising this over and over will mean you will be able to use it effedtivly! "wat would sum1 really weak do" I know i answerd this, but just wanted to say that being weak is not good enough! Its a poor excuse, you safety is in your hands, and if you feel your weak and unable to defend yourself, then find a womens self defense class and start going! Remeber you can learn a lot in just a couple of months. Simple being weak is no excuse! A bit of training, a few pushups everyday will mean in a couple of months you WONT be weak. "how would sum1 wearing skirts kick" i really couldn't say as i've never worn a skirt! But if kicking is difficult, then PUNCH!!! WALA! KA POW!!!! Remember sis, you never know when you could be attacked, so be ready, be prepared, remember is an islaamic obligation for ALL muslims to be prepared for battle. The prophet Muhammed (saw) said a strong muslim is better than a weak muslim, referring to physical strengh.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Sparrow
09/08/01 at 07:21:20
I took a self defense class once and the instructor told us "NEVER NEVER NEVER get in the car with someone trying to abduct you."  She said "Once you get in the car, you are dead."  She said it was better to refuse (even if a weapon is involved) because you actually have a better chance of surviving your refusal to comply than you do being taken to some remote location. Sparrow

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 07:29:56
Interesting Sparrow! How many people would get into a car if someone pulled up and said "oi, get in, i wanna abduct you" ;) Anyway your right sparrow, its better to fight and try and get away, once your in thier grasp, you life is in thier hands. So tell us more about your self defence class, has it made you more confident in being able to defend yourself, less fearful of being attacked etc? Did it actually teach you anything? And what was it you learnt, what type of martial arts?

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Mahmoodah
09/08/01 at 08:08:25
salam, i dont wear skirts, but to thoses sisters that do wear em, i strongly advise that u wear pants under em, so u can kick:) w/o ppl seein ur legs:)  but i suppose if u wear a skirt and it was an emergency kick, then u cauld shoulw ur legs 4 the sake of kickin!!! neways, i juat had to say, it doesnt matter HOW strong u r, bad things can still happen!!!  I know this girl that was strong, but she still got rapped,  thats coz she panicked n din know wat to do, she was in a quiet area and she just yelled, n she cauldnt move!!! nething can happen at ne time!!!  Sum1 might b REALLY confident but wen sumthing does happen they mayb all panicy and they may just kinda pause/statue, or wat eva sumtimes sum1 weak can get away more easily then sum1 that is tuff!!! neways, if sum1 is following u, and u know that they r up2 no good, then go in2 a crowded area, DON'T go sum where quiet, that is more risky!!! wa-sala, does this make sense???

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 08:20:10
No it dont make sense! This mobile craze has made your grammer aweful! sheesh! nething? Ne way? its ANYthing and ANYWAY! AGGHHH!!!!! Anyway (neway in your case) you right, some people freeze when something bad happens, but if your trained to fight, or are prepared for it, you've still got more chance to get away! You may freeze, but if your used to a combat situation, as you'd always face in the gym, your less likely to freeze, and more likely to be able to get away! Your just finding excuses not to go down the gym arnt you ;-) I still think its a LOT better for muslims womens OWN benefit that they can take care of themselves in a volatile situaiton. And its not just self defenc eon the street, what about it the home? We kow for a fact that thier is a lot of domestic violance in muslim marrieges, so if the women can fight, she would be better able to stand up to thuggish husbands and slap em up. Sister my advice is its better to be prepared, as they say, its better to be safe than sorry.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Serena
09/10/01 at 15:38:23
Dear Brothers and Sisters, Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. Where do I begin? Self-defense classes will not always help you in the midst of an attack. A daughter of a friend of mine is a second degree black belt and in her first year of university she was attacked and almost raped until a man saw what was happening and came to her defense. No matter how prepared physically a woman is, when she faces an attacker, and is thrown off guard, she tends to freeze, and panic. What good do the classes do then? And about hitting the man, (excuse me, he’s not a *man* if he’s a rapist. I’ll use the term attacker, or offender) in the eyes, or between the legs, this often doesn’t work. Why? The offender already knows about this. He knows that these are the parts the woman will go for first. So what does he do? He protects them. As far as getting into the car with somebody, no way. How many women are shot for *not* getting into the car? Not many. But how many women are shot, killed and raped *after* getting into the car with a man? Almost all of them. If a car pulls up to you and you insist on not going, the man is not going to sit there and argue with you. Why? The more time you stand there, the more attention it might draw to you. If he has a knife with him, you simply run, screaming to the nearest *crowded* area. He’s not going to get out of the car and chase you with a knife. And my advice, before you run, try for a few seconds to get as mush info about the car as you can because it’s almost gauranteed that if it’s not you, it’s going to be another woman. If he has a gun, well, for me, I would rather get shot running away, and have, insha’Allah more of a chance of surviving than getting in the car with him. And now about being raped- What about if the attacker is known to you? What if he’s a family friend, or even a relative? What if you aren’t prepared for it, at all? [It was] stated that weakness is not an excuse….what if a woman is ill, frail and can’t move much? Would that be an excuse? Would it then be her fault that she was raped? What if she becomes so terrified and freezes? What if the man weighs a hundred pounds more than her and throws her off guard? What if he comes up behind her and knocks her down before she can use any of the self-defense tactics she knows? What if he has such a hardy grip on her that she *can’t* move as hard as she tries? What if he has a weapon to her throat? What if the woman is so terrified because she knows that her body is about to be violated and she’s only trying to protect herself? In her mind, whether her attacker is known, or unknown to her, she knows that her body is about to be exposed. Something that she cherishes. What if she is a virgin? Inexperienced? It’s easy for a man to say “be prepared”, but could a woman ever be truly prepared for something like that? I don’t think so. Let’s think about something else also… Have you ever heard of the date rape drug? Imagine if someone slips this drug into your drink. You become unaware of anything, and everything around you. Whoever slipped this drug into your drink has full access to your body. Can you consent or fight them off? No! What if while you’re passed out from the drug this man shows your body off to many other people? What if you are raped over and over again? What if he takes pictures of you and puts them on the net? These are all “very real” things that may happen to you. What good will self-defense classes do in this situation? The woman wouldn’t even know that she has been raped until she wakes up. It’s not just rape either…it’s the outcomes of the rape. What about diseases, pregnancy, emotional distress? Will classes teach you about this? No, I don’t think so. What if you get AIDS, or become pregnant from the rape? What are the future implications on your life? Anyway, I have rambled enough. Ladies, all I can say is to be prepared for anything. You can say you’re going to fight if anything like this happens to you, but you will never really know what your going to do until it comes down to it. Insha’Allah none of you will ever have to go through something like this. One last comment- Being attacked by your husband, or even raped is the *worst* part. He knows your weaknesses. And most people don’t even believe that a husband can rape his wife…but it’s very real. It can and does happen each day. Wa’assalam, Serena [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Zara
09/08/01 at 11:43:23
[quote]Assalaamu-alaikum I just wanted to know, do any of you sisters train in any kind of martial arts? Do you engage in any form of self defence training? If so what kinds? And how many of you would be able to defend yourself from an attack from a potential rapist of mugger? Would you just submit to them, or would you be prepared to fight back? I read a hadith which said that a woman MUST defend her honour against a rapist, even if it means having to kill the attacker in the process, so then the question comes up, how many of you would be prepared to follow this hadith? I aint asking how many of you are killers, just if your prepared to defend yourselves at any cost to the attacker, and not just prepared to, but WOULD you be able to? If not why not?[/quote] slm are we speaking of kung-fu fighting???  i know a sister who does boxing but that's about it.  the self defence classes are mixed so sisters tend to refrain from attending them.  we have ju-jitsu and kick-boxing but not enough demand to arrange an all sisters class....i shall arrange one at our uni if we get enough support.  it does sound like a good idea...Although I think hijaabi sisters are at a lower risk of being raped - but it is better to be safe than sorry... ok now i want to ask all you brothers who have ventured in to this thread... [B]Do you train/keep fit so that YOU can defend a sisters honour if the need arises???[/B] wlm Zara wlm

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/10/01 at 15:39:36
What I was saying is that a women SHOULD be trained to defend herself, i never said it would always work. What you are saying is basically the women is a weak defenseless individual who is unable to fight back. That what if a man is 100lbs heavier, or much stronger, of surpirses her from behind? Have you ever heard of a female boxer called Christy Martin? American? How many men would be able to get the better of her? She would wipe the floor with 95% of men who attacked her! What about Jiu Jitsu, Judo? You get little kids hurling grown men over thier shoulders! I know, i've been thrown by a little 7 year old, flat on my back! I weight about 175-180 pounds, he probably weights about 60 lbs at most! You cannot just write women off like this, i.e. thier too weak to fight back, they are hopeless etc etc. A women has every right to fight back. You seem to be saying i'm blaming women for being attacked? No i am NOT!!!!! Women can, and SHOULD fight back. And so what if its a relative or friend who attacks, you fight back, and most attackers flee if the victims puts up a fight! You women have a right a defend your modesty and honour, no man has the right to abuse your bodies, so you women should do whatever you can to make sure you can do your best to avoid being raped. Remeber not all rapists are big huge burly tough guys, most are insecure, little women controlling sad nuts, and a good struggle from the women will be enough to send these guys running. Women are not as weak[...]. And believe me i know, training in a gym where several good female fighters used to train, they could more then hold thier own when fighting the men. And these men were pretty good fighters themselves. [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/08/01 at 11:56:45
"ok now i want to ask all you brothers who have ventured in to this thread... Do you train/keep fit so that YOU can defend a sisters honour if the need arises" Yes. I train a lot, several times a week in boxing a weightlifting, and i would definately help a sister if she was being attacked, even a non-muslim women. If a women is being attacked then its a duty of all muslim men to help, regardless of the risk to themselves. My sister is only 10, i've been training her, lightly in boxing since she was 4. Now she is an extremly skilled fighter and can more then handle any guys her age! Although she dont show it! I train all the little kids i can, the younger the better, at the same time teaching them islaam, so that they dont abuse the skills their learning. Inshallah my kid sister will be able to help herself if trouble ever comes up, as she's been prepared for it since she was a baby. I personally, and all the guys i know WOULD help any women if they were being attacked. In fact that question surprised me. Sister why did you ask that? DO you feel thier are brothers who would NOT help?

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
bhaloo
09/08/01 at 12:38:50
slm Someone posted these really good tips that women could use to defend themselves and what to do when faced with a difficult situation.   I forgot the link, maybe Se7en can put it up.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
eleanor
09/10/01 at 15:40:43
slm I agree with Serena in that classes can only bring you so far. It's one thing to practise in a nice well-lit room, on gym mats, with people you are familiar with, and it's another when it's dark, you can't see your assailant properly, you can only smell his stink and feel the imminent danger. There's no way that any class can prepare you for something like that. And in any case if it's a sister's class then you're only going to be practising on other women. But still I am of the opinion that a little preparation is better than none. wasalaam eleanor [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
jannah
09/08/01 at 12:59:18
slm, ok let's give se7en a break... here are the two threads where we discussed tips for women [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=4188] thread1[/url] [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=1858] thread2[/url]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Serena
09/10/01 at 15:42:19
Dear Brothers and Sisters, Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu. For all the sisters here, *it is* important to have at least some information as to how to defend yourself in case you are ever attacked. I was not saying otherwise. By the way, most of us who have a life, are married, and have children with a home to take care of cannot go out and become professional boxers, etc. That's all. Wa'assalam, Serena [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
farah
09/08/01 at 14:04:35
As salaamu alaikum -- I read this tip a long time ago, but it makes sense, so I'll pass it on for whatever it's worth: If a woman is about to be raped and is unable to get away, she should void her bladder and her bowels. Yeah, that's nasty.  The idea is that the rapist will think it's nasty, too, and go away.  Quickly. Pearl

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
humble_muslim
09/10/01 at 15:45:26
AA [Please don't...] imply that a woman is a sinner if she does not fight back.  Give the exact hadith and its source. The Quran itself makes many refernces to the fact that women are weak.I think that a lot of women would be scared of fighting back in case it made the rapist angrier. [Modifed by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Anonymous
09/09/01 at 04:55:08
= Assalamualaikum Uhmmm...Please can i ask  a question..I didn't like the idea of joining a top-heavy training program...because i thought it would make me muscular :(....I Love the feminine body Allah Subhanawatalaa has blessed me with,alhamdullilah...I don't want to look like Venus/Serena Williams   :(or other "fit" sportswomen...Does regular training do this to you?...Anyone knows?? Thanks Assalamualikum

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Sparrow
09/09/01 at 07:52:36
I was worried about this too when I first started weight training.  I didn't want "Popeye" arms. My trainer told me, and I've heard it echoed since, that it is impossible for women to "bulk up" just from a light weight training regiment.   And the benefits of weight training for women are numerous, especially as they age. I "lift" twice a week  (handweights) for about an hour; my arms have a nice tone to them but are not what you'd call big or bulky.   Sparrow

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Lisha
09/10/01 at 12:57:37
[quote]My sister is only 10, i've been training her, lightly in boxing since she was 4. Now she is an extremly skilled fighter and can more then handle any guys her age! Although she dont show it! [/quote]slm,. its not that easy to find a gym 4 women members only:( i way gonna sign up 4 a womans self defence class, suprise!!!, the instructor was male):( i used to train with my bro too!!!  when i was younger, but soon even u will stop trainin ur sis (coz it gets harder 4 u to tech her n she'll find it harder to learn from q), then wat will happen???   Anyways i've never got into a physical fight (i havn't even eva slapped ne 1:() does this make me a weak person???   but, yes i do agree a sister should try her best to b prepered!!! but its not always easy!!! when i get followed by ne males i stared panickin! never mind the rest:( insh'allah non of us hav to eva hav to experience ne thing like this!!! take care, w'salaam

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Anik
09/09/01 at 13:26:23
asalaamu alaikum, the question was "Do you train to be fit to defend a sister's honour" No actually, I don't. What I've learned is that fighting, especially in emergency situations, has nothing to do with your knowledge of fighting unless you are so engrossed in it that it can actually come naturally. It's like when a teenager takes karate and feels like "he's all that" and goes to pick a fight, next thing he gets beat up because he believes that his martial art could actually come in handy in a REAL situation... chances are, the attacker will be generally bigger than most people (hence he is confident to use his muscle) I don't think in it takes even muscle... you gotta have the... how would i say it without being offensive... fortitude... to actually TAKE ACTION I've seen pretty big guys curl up like sheep cause they don't ahve the guts and would i train JUST to defend a sister's honour... hmmm.. it makes me want to now that i read this thread, but still, I wonder, in North America, we don't go to war... we don't fight to defend Islam even though it is disparaged left and right... the incidence of attack on a woman is actually quite low, but even low is too much, soemtimes i feel like war-training results in violence... it promotes bloodshed... it can make muslims seem militant and some muslims DO use this fitness in a wrong and unjust manner but you know what? preparation is good... and it is undeniable that a prepared group is mostly a successful group of people... I guess working out would be generally good for all people... male or female... the thing with females is that... when you are being raped and might be killed FORGET ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE TO COVER UP or it may mean your life... if you are in  skirt, kick the guy so hard in his area... trust me no one will be paying attention to your legs... (I think that attitude where you "might not be able to kick if you are in a skirt" is the first thing that some women need to trash... that helpless, soft, I-don't-know-what-to-do, damsel-in-distress way of thinking that actually works against them) use objects around you... keys, newspapers, food anything... even your own clothing (and yes, I think if it saves your life but compromises certain things, do it!) go for the soft areas, go crazy, yell "FIRE FIRE!", just try to develop this sense of craziness in you, this frenzy that you won't give up (supposedly it really gets the attacker angry, but as well, it dissuades them when they see strength) the truth is, there is no "magic formula" to stop this, or even prevent it... it is an unfortunate thing that CAN happen, no matter how you prepare... instill first in yourself that sense of defense, that you have to do all in your power... start from within... don't give up read stories, hear people share experiences, and feel angry at all the attackers out there... support sisters who have been harmed... respect men who help them, so if it ever happens to you, just get SO angry... and that i think will carry you through... The bottom line is, the attacker is male, he is almost guaranteed stronger than you, more athletic, (becuase they prey on weak-looking victims, not necessarily bold and outgoing even), and always assume that he can and will overpower you because he is physically much more capable... fending him off isn't a fair fight, but a CHANCE you have... objects and items around are not guranteed (you could carry a small pocket knife), in fact, they may have weapons of their own to use against you... they have preyed on you becuase they are sick and angry, they feel weak and need to express that they are male and stronger than you... so just try to get really ticked off, anger often swallows fear, and that is your chances i think... it all starts with getting really P-O'ed I heard on the news that some women have been advised to even carry around a condom and offer it to the attacker if ALL else fails... sounds pretty dumb to me as it concedes a certain defeat, but i was thinking... maybe it could prevent pregnancy, disease, and most of all, grants you valuable distraction time i dunno about that, I am not saying to do it. but just realize that you have to get that sense of aggression, which even traning can't give you. sorry i go on and on and often repeat myself, sometimes i as well get passionate about this stuff alongisde some sisters. asalaamualaikum. abdullah,.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Anonymous
09/10/01 at 15:47:34
Salam I don't think its essential for sister's to spend hours in the gym training to be Ninja Turtles on the off chance they get faced by a gang of heavily armed, 6feet, army trained thugs but I'm sure basic self defence classes are handy.Does anyone know of any classes in local areas? If I ever come home late I always carry a can of deodrant in my hand so not only would any would be attackers  be blinded by the beautiful fragrance of my impulse bottle, they would also be blinded by the CO2 chemicals :) Another thing is a persoanl alarm my dad got me. If you keep it handy it saves you from screaming loudly because the alarm really draws attention. Hania [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
The-Doctor
09/09/01 at 23:03:22
[slm] One uncle I know is licensed to carry a concealed gun. He says every Muslim should learn how to use one, and infact should carry one. Now while I don't agree with his statement, it is something to consider. Of course thats why sisters should have brothers escort them. This uncle told me once he was going to be mugged but he pulled out the handle of his gun (a 9mm gun I believe) and the mugger ran off. Allahu A3laam. We should make duah that Allah protects our sisters and brothers on the road, and of course there are a slew of duah that one can read before travelling etc.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/10/01 at 15:49:13
Assalaamu-alikum Serena [..] I still believe though that its important for women to be prepared in whatever way they can for combat. And someone said they dont have hours and hours to train, well you dont need hours and hours, just 1 hour, twice a week is more then enough!!! [Modified by Admin]

Sense-itivity
AbuKhaled
09/10/01 at 09:41:55
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem Dearest Brothers & Sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. I would venture forth the following remarks: It is patently obvious to me that some of those who - out of genuine concern and sincerity no doubt – are offering advice on self-defence for our beloved Sisters, nonetheless lack a degree of sensitivity, as well as real-life experience with victims of violence (including rape). Or, even if *some* experience has been had, perhaps it was narrow, for it clearly has not produced the fruits of realisation that a more penetrating analysis and reflection might have, wallahu a’lam. That is why it would be clear to those who maybe *have* dealt with women who have been abused, raped, hit, etc., that this advice – despite it’s good nature – lacks the insight of those with experience. It is one-sided, that being the side of how to defend oneself. Which is all well and good, but without knowing how to *marry* that advice and tailor it to the vast spectrum of psychologies that our beloved Sisters possess, it becomes a little less useful. It is manifest from the way some of the responses have been written to Sisters who’ve addressed certain questions about the advice, that some of the aspects which are helpful when suggesting such pointers, namely, sensitivity, wisdom, experience, are in absence. Knowing the theory of how to defend oneself is excellent, and masha’Allah to that. But *not* comprehending what lies within a woman who is faced with the very real threat to the invasion of her sanctity, or who has to parry off the repeated blows to her face by her husband, or who is being violated already by a group of thugs, erodes the ability to constructively suggest how to *apply* the theory of self-defence to the reality of such confrontations. How many of us brothers (and Sisters) have actually been faced by a Sister who’s husband uses her as a punching bag regularly? How many of us have had to deal with the horrendous question, “I can take it for the sake of protecting my children (i.e. I would rather he hit me than them), but how do I make him not hit me in front of them?” And the despicable choice between two equally appalling alternatives which that leaves us to contend with? How many of us know of a Sister who has been raped, or molested, or abused? And worse, how many of those offering such advice turn out to be the perpetrators of violence towards women themselves, or the ones capable, and willing to resort to it (see next paragraph)? Which to me, is sickeningly hypocritical. Yes, I have come across this too within this Ummah. A bit like paedophiles who obtain employment in places of proximity to children and manipulate that ostensible love for children which helps them secure that position, into something altogether more sinister, disturbing and repulsive. How many Imams are there who preach respect toward our womenfolk on the pulpits, mimbars and in countless khutbas, who themselves, behind closed doors, are guilty of the same crimes that members of the community turn towards them for advice (i.e. abuse of our wives, sisters, mothers, daughters, etc.?). But I digress… Once you have had to deal with such Sisters, and it forces you to confront such questions, you will realise that it is easy to offer advice, make suggestions, and talk from an ideal. But the tragic irony is that such situations are *never* carried out in those ideahised pre-formatted self-defence scenarios. For every Sister who can read such suggestions, there is a possible perpetrator of such heinous transgressions against her most precious self who has also read them and is concocting a strategy to bypass them, ma’adallah. *But*, I am *not* saying we should therefore *not* advise nor suggest, or that Sisters *shouldn’t* learn how to handle themselves, but simply that if you are going to be of those that advise, then learn how not to be naďve about it. Go and learn first from the experiences of Sisters who’ve faced the reality of that which we talk about so expertly without actually having experienced it ourselves. And then you will learn the gulf between your theory and their reality. And you might be a little more able to appreciate the tact, sensitivity and hikmah [wisdom] that is necessary when tackling such delicate matters. Because sometimes a good intention isn’t enough to prevent offence. When you are offering advice which you *think* may be applicable – though you yourself never actually bothered to research into the factors behind why, for example, many women (not all) end up succumbing to such attacks rather than repelling the aggressor, and so you lack an encompassing understanding of why, thus your naďve insensitivity – and some Sister who may have been subject to the *reality* of the horrors which you are alluding to ends up reading your words, she may be able to see through the transparency of those suggestions in a way that those who haven’t been violated in such a way cannot. And take it from this inexperienced brother, it is simply not enough to try and *project* onself into that frame of mind of a victim to come up with possible reasons for why they may not defend themselves, and instead submit to such an attack (which, by the way, is badly worded, because it neglects the situation where one lacks the choice, as in duress and compulsion for instance). So please, let (some of) us, in future, try and approach such topics with more sensitivity, and don’t ridicule the questions and anxieties of those who you know nothing about, for they be speaking from a vantage point much better qualified than your own. To do that, one must be in possession of certain Prophetic characteristics as humility, sensitivity, the ability to read between the lines, no trace of pride, and other apt virtues. I would further caution anyone who lacks the requisite tools and authority, to refrain from concluding meanings from ahadith that they read in isolation to the sharh [commentary] of that hadith. Especially if you’re reading them in a language other than the language of revelation. This is a very dangerous pursuit and liable to misguide the self as well as others if we start opining our conclusions to all and sundry. This is wahy [revelation] we are talking about, and so we *must* seek out the *intended meaning* of Al-Shaari’ [The Lawgiver] (jt), rather than what comes to mind when we read it. In this regard it would be prudent to heed the following words from those who most definitely knew better than ourselves: Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani mentions in his Kitab Al-Jami` Fi Al-Sunan that Ibn `Uyayna said, “Hadith is liable to misguide all except the jurists” [al-hadithu mudillatun illa li al-fuqaha' ] [aw qama qal] Ibn Wahb said, “Every memoriser of hadith that does not have an Imam in fiqh is misguided (dall), and if Allah had not rescued us with Malik and al-Layth (ibn Sa`d), we would have been misguided.” [aw qama qal] So beware of transgressing the adab that needs to be maintained *at all times* before the wahy of Allah ta’ala. It is not befitting of that adab for us to assign meanings to the naql [text] in the absence of knowing whether our meaning is in synchronicity with that of those who expounded on the *actual* meaning using a sahih [authentic], mutassil [unbroken], isnad [chain of transmission] going back to that generation who reported the hadith along with it’s meaning. For if we conclude a meaning which is other than the true meaning, then we are in effect attributing a lie to our Beloved Messenger (saw) – ma’adallah - and this is a grave matter indeed, for it is a direct route to the hellfire, and surely no one with any sense would deliberately navigate such a treacherous path for themselves. I’m not saying anyone *has* - because there is always the possibility of being incidentally correct, though that is a road that should not be travelled for it is paved with hazards - but that by engaging in such practice, one runs the very real risk of doing so, ma’adallah. Let us reflect on our own weaknesses in comprehension of such realities before we proffer our hastily conceived advice, which could be insulting to her who knows the truth behind abhorrent realities, and let us consider our lack of understanding of that which we write about. Sometimes what can all too easily be dismissed as a weakness, may have underlying it, a very real, a very human, a very worthy concern which if we but knew the *full* implications of, and the consequences of disregarding, we might withhold from posturing our own views, and instead actually learning something by asking to be educated by she who knows *from experience* that which we only know from observation, testimony, etc. From she who knows firsthand that which we know only second- or thirdhand. From she – may Allah ta’ala protect her sirr [secret] from the transgressions of her self by others – who knows *directly* that which we know only indirectly. Dear Sisters, may Allah (awj) keep each and every one of you safe and protected *always* and at every moment. May those who are your protectors and guardians care for you with the honour and respect that is your right, and ensure your safe passage to and fro for wherever you go. May our communities come to recognise the responsibility upon their shoulders to create and uphold an environment that facilitates the movement of our Sisters in their daily lives without fear or trepidation. I ask Allah ta’ala to implant the quality of sensitivity, compassion and wisdom in us brothers when we address such delicate issues, and to recognise the inherent nature of our Sisters as Allah ta’ala has created them, and not from any source that informs and educates us about them which is not from the Best of Sources, being the Book of Allah and the Sublime Sunnah of our Beloved and Most Perfected Master, Al-Habib Al-Mustafa ibn Abdullah, the Bearer of the Message of Allah jalla jallalu (saw). For whatever mark I may have overstepped in writing this, that my Sisters know of, but I, due to my lack of understanding of them and my ill-conceived advice, my shortcomings in appreciating your fitra [nature], and my utter inability to proceed with the same sensitivity, compassion and wisdom that I remind others of, may be blind to, I apologise. May Allah ta’ala permit me to be of those who fulfil the amanah [trust] He (jt) has placed on my shoulders towards my Sisters in Islam, one and all, in a manner which is most pleasing to Him (awj) who will reckon with me for my transgressions and misgivings, Abu Khaled

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
BroHanif
09/10/01 at 06:09:01
A.W.W. Hmm interesting discussion, one which is close to my heart. First  I agree with some points Bro Mujahid, yes you must defend yourself and train hard. This isn't just for sisters its necessary for men as well. However, being physcially fit is not the do all and end all, one needs to be spiritually fit as well. For example, there was a case when the noble prophet saws was lying on the ground and enemy soldier approached him with a sword and asked the noble prophet 'Who will protect you now' The noble prophet [saws]replied 'Allah will', with this the mans sword fell. The noble prophet [saws] then picked up the sword and asked the enemy soldier the same question 'Who will protect you now'...(I think the enemy soldier later accepted Islam) Anyway so b4 your train in your kung fu class remember Allah is the protector and no matter what degree of black belt you are, no matter what personal weapon you have, Allah is the protector. Also, it is natural for humans to freeze for a couple of seconds at a time of shock and distress, this can be at a time of robbery, personal attack or even when somebdoy pops a gun to your head. To get round this breath calmly,  try and buy time, and recite the Takbeer 'Allaho Akbar' at the top of your voice. Once you become more aware of the situtation your adrenalin will start to pump, now is the time to get ready to RUN. Forget hammering him a punch like Rocky or a kick like Bruce Lee. The best self defence is to walk away or better still run and just run. And why do I say this becuase I have learnt from the best of martial arts instructors, they say it themselves. I also agree with Sis Serena that being in a gym with all its soft furnshings is different from the real world. There are many situations that can arise in the REAL world that are different from your gym mats and punching bags, punching bags DON'T hit back, they don't have a disgusting attitude, they can't swear and they surely can't pin you down and rape you. Insha-allah I'll post some more to this thread but in the meantime, lets be sensative to each other, some people on this thread may have gone through a terrible situation like rape or abuse and that may seem light to us, perhaps sometimes we may even feel their pain. But the reality for them and us is something else. Salaams for now.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Serena
09/10/01 at 07:42:10
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Brother Abu Khaled, Thank you! :) May Allah ta'ala open our hearts and fill them with compassion, respect, understanding and love towards our Brothers and Sisters for His (awj) sake. Wa'assalam, Serena

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/10/01 at 15:51:53
Assalaamu-Alaikum Abu Khaled!!! Well since you put it so eloquently, i can't really argue with you! But i still think women should be trained from a young age. Some form of defence is better than none, and although i aint an expert in womens troubles ie a counsellor etc, i guess i dont really know the mentality of the women under such pressure, however under a gym situation, yes i know controlled environemtn, women seem to be able to handle themselves, and i aint talking fancy matial arts! [The] claim gyms are all modern, bright lights, with friends etc, well based on that i am to believe you rarely if ever go to gyms? Maybe what you said goes for maritial arts gyms, but boxing gyms are different, and the training is not exactly friendly. Have you ever seen the face of a boxer? Not a pretty site, however is that a sign of training in a nice friendly atmosphere? no. Boxing gyms are hostile places, not friendly, not in the slightest. If it was the Mujaahiddeen in Chenchay would have been wiped out long ago. Do you know womena re fighting side by side with those brothers? Do you realise the impact the chenchen women are having on the russian forces? Maasalaam [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Anonymous
09/10/01 at 15:54:25
slm] [color=Green] ******************************************************************* [/color] [color=Blue] The Holy Prophet [saw] said: "Affliction caused by the tongue is worse than (that caused by) the strike of the blade of a sword." Imam Baqir (as) said: "No one is safe from sins unless the one controls his/her tongue." "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should say something good or keep quiet." [Bukhari] [/color] [color=Green] ****************************************************************** [/color] [Modified by Admin]

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
jannah
09/10/01 at 16:05:21
[color=red][slm] I've modified a number of posts in this thread. I think that discussing something that we have different viewpoints on is fine. But when it becomes personalized, the arguments just degenerate from there.   Please keep any personalized references/accusations against others out of future posts. It's fine to argue one's point and belief and even why the other arguments might not be right, but there is no need to get personal. Any further discussion on the topic of editing personalized posts can be taken up with the admin offline. jazakamullahu khairan

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
eleanor
09/11/01 at 05:31:57
slm [quote] boxing gyms are different, and the training is not exactly friendly. Have you ever seen the face of a boxer? Not a pretty site, however is that a sign of training in a nice friendly atmosphere? no. Boxing gyms are hostile places, not friendly, not in the slightest. [/quote] okay... so how many boxing gyms do you know of that run classes for sisters and are run by a sister? wasalaam eleanor

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/11/01 at 05:54:21
"okay... so how many boxing gyms do you know of that run classes for sisters and are run by a sister?" I can't think of any. I know a few martial arts ones, but i dont rate that hoo haa stuff. Boxing is more natural, more free style fighting. If you sisters want to organise it, i'm sure their would be gyms willing to designate a couple of nights a week to accomodate a womens only boxing class! And you dont have to have a women leading the class, you could have a brother in Hijaab!

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
eleanor
09/11/01 at 05:58:38
slm yeah right, and during practise someone punches you on the face and your hijab falls off.. get real wasalaam eleanor

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
mujaahid
09/11/01 at 06:04:53
lol!!! Well i'm sure their would be female boxers, kickboxers who are able to train a class, in fact i KNOW their are! Get real? Yeah i'm getting real. These kaafir women make an effort to organise classes etc. Why do muslim women expect it all to be done for them? When i was at Uni the sikh society had a sikh womens only kickboxing class, what did the muslims have? Nothing. These kaafir women organise so much for themselves, yet the muslim women dont seem to be doing much themselves. Why? I'm not saying all are like this, but their seems to be a lot.

Re: WARNING FOR SISTERS!!
Zara
10/01/01 at 12:11:25
[quote]lol!!! Well i'm sure their would be female boxers, kickboxers who are able to train a class, in fact i KNOW their are! Get real? Yeah i'm getting real. These kaafir women make an effort to organise classes etc. Why do muslim women expect it all to be done for them? When i was at Uni the sikh society had a sikh womens only kickboxing class, what did the muslims have? Nothing. These kaafir women organise so much for themselves, yet the muslim women dont seem to be doing much themselves. Why? I'm not saying all are like this, but their seems to be a lot.[/quote] well bruv, u can't organise a kick-boxing class for three muslim sisters you need more support. as yet we have had increasing support and insha'allah we will be sorting out the self-defense classes to cater for women and men so that some separate classes are available... insha'allah slm Zara
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