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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Ideas and pointing out some problems
Anik
09/17/01 at 00:03:34
A.A. guys, 1) whenever I see people who represent their religion on TV, they always get a famous spokesperson. I also ntoice that the Christian guys are always very strong-voiced and they preach, Jewish representatives are VERY good talkers and very presuasive, but the muslim rep's are always with thick accents and not as eloquent as their American-born counterparts... Why can't a non-Arab muslim leader go up on TV? Imam Siraj Wahaj? Sheikh Hamza Yusuf? It will dispel many stereotypes right there... I mean, in today's CNN Talkback, they had an interfaith dialogue with the three Abrahamic faiths... and while there were muslims in the audience, no muslims asked questiosn (or were allowed to) and the brother who spoke, Allhumdulillah very well-spoken and he made dua on national TV before the talks commenced, but i worry that perhaps some Americans couldn't relate to his ethnicity... the Jewish and Christian Rabbi and reverend basically talked right over him... the brother's points though, were definitly superior... next thing 2) my parents went to their regular hindu temple service today which was meant as an interfaith meeting... all but muslim representation showed up, and they pointed that out... I think it is good for muslims to show up in interfaith and memorial services... we don't have to pray to other things or commit shirk, but show how we are open minded Also, start blood donor clinics at our mosques... get a group of people to go donate dressed in Sunnah to show our solidarity and our committment to peace. 3) First thing i thought when i was told more evidence that the hijackers were Islamic extremists... why would any muslim have a bar tab? they have $48 bar tabs and on the flipside, they are devout enough to die for Islam? I am not judging anyone's Imaan but this is in a muslim's defence here... just some thoughts guys. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
se7en
09/17/01 at 15:01:04
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah, Abdullah you are *so* right.  Muslims need to learn how to do PR. It's just common sense to get someone up there without an accent if we're trying to claim that we're not foreigners and that we identify ourselves as American. This is something I'm seriously going to look into after things calm down... we need to have trained professionals to deal with the media; how to speak on camera, how to handle tough questions, how to release press statements, etc. And I totally agree with you about inter-faith activities and participating in them.  Alhamdulillah the leaders of our community here are big on interfaith and we've had an outpouring of support from the Christian and Jewish communities of the area, and have participated in a lot of vigils and other activities. [edited post]

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
M.F.
09/17/01 at 04:38:36
Assalamu alaikum, Subhan Allah, I had the exact same thought on Friday at that interfaith prayer session at that big cathedral.  I thought: Why couldn't they have had an American Muslim with no accent or strange clothes speak.  This is with all due respect, it's just that I'm looking at things from an American standpoint.  Someone with an accent just rings as insincere to their ears.  I hate saying it but it's true.  And someone like Hamza Yusuf is such a good speaker, he can get the subtelties of American english and also of American thought.  Again, I deeply respect all Muslim scholars and am proud of them, but some are better suited to speak to an American public and others are better for other kinds of publics.  Wallahu a'lam.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
Saleema
09/17/01 at 08:20:52
[slm] You are absolutely right Abdullah. However, Muslims have been showing up for vigils and are donating blood. Could it be that the Muslims didnt' show up there because it was being held at a Hindu temple? And since the Jews and the Christians are People of the Book, the Muslims feel more comfortabel with them? [wlm]

Shun-Cau
AbuKhaled
09/17/01 at 10:21:27
Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem Dear Brothers & Sisters, Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah. What is possibly more unfortunate is this: That some Muslims are facing the mounting unfair and premature, yet vicious, retribution by a few irrational individuals who seek a vengeance borne of hatred, maybe xenophobia, and an unwillingness to try and understand that condemnation by association will only add to the catalogue of inconceivable misery, since it will just add to that terrible tally of innocent grieving parties. A vengeance that excludes justice, level-headed deliberation, calm pontification, due diligence and process, which is being directed towards some of our beloved brothers/sisters as they go about their daily lives innocent of the calamitous events of Tuesday September 11th 2001, may Allah (awj) keep them each, one and all, in His (awj) safekeeping. So should we not then, in the midst of such unfair and undesired happenings, refrain from being hasty in our *own* conclusions, in other regards, sensitive to the appalling hostility that *haste* is causing for many Muslims, including ourselves? In this instance, about the endeavours of some high-profile personalities within our Ummah and what they have or have not done, based on what we actually may not know that they *have* done from the available options of actions that could be done, to assist the Ummah at this time of unprecedented bewilderment in our generation. Maybe we should check beforehand in future. Because such an irony is not bittersweet, it is just bitter. Especially when we don’t know what preoccupies those in positions of responsibility that may prevent them from doing that which we think they should. Notwithstanding this, I think some of you are not up to date with respect to those you named. I believe Shaykh Hamza was on San Jose TV for two hours last Friday, and Sidi Abdul Hakim Murad has written an article about this whole situation. That is all that I know about what they *have* definitely done so far, but Allahu ta’ala a’lam, no doubt they have done plenty more than what some of us know yet care to speculate about prematurely. Allah (awj) will not ask us about what they did. But He (awj) may well account us for what we said in reference to them. May Allah (awj) allow us to exercise caution lest our words give rise to a mistaken perception of those we refer to in their absence, for what we may not know they have done for the cause of this Ummah. On a related note, when one programme was aired by the BBC in which articulate Muslim and non-Muslim voices were allowed to question some of the gung-ho rhetoric being issued, questioning the apparently *pre-determined* guilt of those against which the evidence remains inconclusive and circumstantial, wondering about the nature of the response being prepared on a governmental level, and reminding of the distasteful double-standards and ostensible short-term memory loss of much of the media and US government, it faced an immediate bombardment by pressure groups and lobbyists expressing outrage. To the extent that no less than the Director-General of the BBC *admitted* complicity and apologised for airing such a programme so soon after the event! Subbhan'Allah. It seems articulate and intelligent criticism, and though-provoking questioning become unpalatable when they are accompanied by the truth. May Allah (awj) aid us in being ambassadors for Islam at all times, and being the representatives of His (awj) Beloved (saw) on this earth through our impeccable and unimpeachable example of what it means to be of the Ummah of Al-Habib Al-Mustafa ibn Abdullah (saw), Abu Khaled

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
amatullah
09/17/01 at 10:53:38
Bismillah and salam, Dear brother, Yes and isn't it funny how Arabs and Israelis most like cousins?! I see your point and how we have to cater our public relations to something that is more appealing to them in order to curb hatred. But my point is this is THE time for muslims to strengthens OUR own relations with our community before anything else really. We have to support each other, not alienate some very capable intelligent people to please the kuffar. Please brothers and sisters be extra friendly with the young ones who are shaky in their faith at this point. Call up your sisters who have taken their hijab and remind them It saddens me that up until now many have gone on air to condem the act and explain Islam but noone has stood up for the fatwas issued by B.L. that they are according to Islamic sharia about saudi lands AND to be faught out there, not against civilians!!! I am happy that most European countries have only showed support in terms of sympathies but they don't agree with retaliation on countries sort of thing. Why aren't Muslim countries doing at least that???? 002.120 YUSUFALI: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah. PICKTHAL: And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper. SHAKIR: And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say: Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
jannah
09/17/01 at 11:23:19
M.F. on the other hand it could have been good that they had Muzammil Siddiqui.. who is desi looking with an accent. Because he fits most people's "stereotype" of being muslim and then spoke about how we do not condone it etc. If it had been someone else it might not have sunk in to people that this person was Muslim... ie people don't see there are many different kinds of diverse Muslims.

Re: Shun-Cau
bhaloo
09/17/01 at 16:09:15
slm [quote]and Sidi Abdul Hakim Murad has written an article about this whole situation. [/quote] I have read this and it is one of the sickest things I have read.  I can't even begin to tell you how angry I became after reading that, how dare he attack Sheikh Ibn Tamaiyya (ra), and how dare he use this time to attack a certain Muslim group. As far as I'm concerned I will consider it to be a complete waste of time to read anything from him in the future.   Astarghfullah, these words are from Abdul Hakim Murad in his article: The lava-stream that flows from Ibn Taymiyya, whose fierce xenophobia mirrored his sense of the imminent Mongol threat to Islam, has a habit of closing minds and hardening hearts. There is no proof that any Muslims were responsible for this, and that it may very well be the work of Israel and the US government as several documents circulating around suggest this.  But instead some people have taken this opportunity to attack their brothers in faith without any proof whatsoever not to mention a scholar.  This to me demonstrates just how much knowledge they have of this deen and the hatred they have displayed towards other Muslims.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
Anik
09/17/01 at 15:21:37
AA Brother Abu Khaled, I don't doubt in any way that we may be mis- or under-informed as to what is occurring in this Ummah I did not ask, "Where the heck is Hamza Yusuf? Get him out here!" I asked, "How come some of us haven't seen as many brothers commenting on this as other groups, such as the Jews?" Obviously, this is a time when we have to come together. A.A. abdullah,.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
jannah
09/17/01 at 12:29:02
[slm] As for those who asked 'where is hamza yusuf'.. where else would he be?? Every active Muslim in the United States has had no sleep last week trying to deal with this situation. Trying to help the Muslim community, the backlash, the fear, the logistics and dealing with the media, non muslims etc.  HY has had to contend with alot this week dealing with ONLY the Muslim community alone. Anyway here's one of the interviews he's done recently: Expert says Islam prohibits violence against innocents Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs BY RICHARD SCHEININ Mercury News Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom? We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.'' Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said. Why would anyone do what the hijackers did? Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people. They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that. Because? You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil. What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam? I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective. The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction. Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs? That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians. Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.'' That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government. Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy. Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks? Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people. What about Israeli people? Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories. It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization. The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost. How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets? When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people. The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence. Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority. What is the Arabic word for martyr? Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity. And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue. What does Islam say about suicide? Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder. What is a martyr's reward? The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, ``Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.'' If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.

Re: Ideas and pointing out some problems
Anik
09/17/01 at 14:49:11
A.A. My sincerest apologies to our dear brother Abu Khaled for wrongly jumping to conclusions. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

SEIK BAI + ache-mist :(
se7en
09/17/01 at 17:17:31
as salaamu alaykum, Oh my goodness.  :(   I apologize for saying *anything* disparaging, or what may be construed as disparaging, about Shaykh Hamza.  I went back and changed my post.  I did not mean to insinuate that he was not doing anything, or that he wasn't doing enough.  Please forgive me for that, it wasn't right.  May Allah reward him for his efforts in this time and for his efforts towards the Muslim cause in general. We had an inter-faith thing here at City Hall, and the representative of the Muslim community had an accent so thick, *I* had no idea what he was talking about -- and I've been listening to accents my whole life!  I guess I was just trying to say that, we need to have Muslim *Americans* up there in the spot light, and that might have been something that ISNA should have considered (though Dr Muzzamil Siddiqi did a great job, may Allah reward him for all his efforts) OH man. :(  I do apologize for starting all this.  It isn't what I intended, and it isn't the time for it.  Like Shaykh Hamza says, this is *not* a time to clean house.. this isn't a time to criticize any Muslim's efforts.  I am so sorry about bringing any of this up. This is a time to defend the house.  Here are some great comments made by a bro in email : [color=black] Our Muslim UMMAH is suffering - this is NOT a time to point fingers at other groups or espouse one view over another - this is a time to come together.  It makes no difference to me what ideas you have as a Muslim right now, let's overlook this because our WHOLE community is suffering right now.  I don't think an ignorant white hick would distinguish between muslims when attacking them.  And trust me on this, we just had 3 masaajid bombed or shot at in the past week - one shi'a, one "salafi-oriented", one "sunni mainstream" [...] It is not the time to discuss muslim "ideologies" - rather, our focus and our efforts (our writing, words, etc.) should be targeted to the non-muslim audience in explaining to them how this attack has nothing to do with Islam.  In addition, we should also focus on doing dhikr and making du'a for our community. With the best of intents inshAllah and heartfelt love [/color]
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