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The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/07/01 at 14:08:23
How many Muslims have you guys heard/read were killed in the attacks of September 11th? A North Carolina congressman, Bob Etheridge, said that at least 300 Muslims were killed in September 11th's attacks during his visit to my International Relations class. I thought the number sounded exaggerated and was wondering if anyone had heard a much smaller number (I've heard as few as six). BTW, how many of you actually believe the absurd conspiracy theory that Zionists were behind the attacks apparently because no Jews were in the WTC on the 11th? Sounds like all the other ignorant Zionist or Masonic bogeyman non-sense. I read in a weekly Baptist paper my parent's get, The Biblical Recorder, that Christian evangelist Anis Shorrosh recently angered many Muslim students at a university in Houston when he said that Allah is Satan and Muhammad was a liar. The university's staff condemned what he said and apologized for his comments. Some of you may remember the Palestinian Christian, Anis Shorrosh, from his debates with Ahmed Deedat and Jamal Badawi or his book, "Islam Revealed". He infuriated Muslims attending his debate with Jamal Badawi in the early 90's (I think it was) when he misquoted the Qur'an (he said the Qur'an tells Muslim men to beat their wives without stating the circumstances) and insulted Muhammad. He's never been able to show courtesy to Muslim audiences.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/07/01 at 14:29:43
http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=4593 check out of the above link. 300 is too little. offical numbers are still not known, the dead are still being counted. if you read some of the old threads in the ummah center since the start of this tragedy then you will get some of your answeres to your questions. take care, Saleema

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
se7en
10/07/01 at 14:48:55
This is a post by Saleema: [quote] I'm surprised that a Palestinian Christian would say stuff like that, they get along so well with the Muslims. Anyway, this is way off topic, but in Houston there is a Palestinian Jewish family here and almost all of them are Muslims now, alhamdulillah. Their family moved here when Israel was created out of the heart of Palestine. The grandfather, when he saw her grandaughter wearing hijab, started crying out of happiness. It reminded him of Palestine. [/quote]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/07/01 at 14:53:58
Hmmm, those numbers do sound high, but they very well could be accurate. I'll keep looking into it. Thanks for your help, I appreciate it. A poster, M.F., raised the point, "If only ONE Muslim died yesterday, then if the killer really was a so called Muslim, he'll be sent straight to the hellfire for killing a Muslim.  Wouldn't they have thought of that??!!!" An ABC reporter claimed he talked to Usama bin Muhammad bin Laden after the U.S. embassy bombings (in Nigeria and Tanzania) and told him that Muslims were killed in the Tanzania bombing. He said that Usama responded by telling him that it was ok that Muslims were killed in the attacks because he was doing the will of Allah and that it was an act of Jihad (or something to that extent). I know that this is not how the majority of Muslims feel, but I'm offering a reason for why the people who committed the attrocities may have attempted to justify the possibility of killing innocent Muslims.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
bhaloo
10/07/01 at 19:35:53
slm Did he really say that "it was ok" that Muslims were killed in the attacks?  Who is the translator of the piece?  I heard a few translations today and they were both translating the same thing and at times they came up with very different things.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/07/01 at 20:42:41
Arshad, If you're talking about the Usama bin Laden interview they showed this afternoon in the states (allegedly filmed today), I wasn't mentioning that. I saw a biography on Usama bin Laden and an ABC reporter said that bin Laden said something along those lines when he talked to him just after the embassy bombing (defending the unintentional killing of Muslims by saying it was an act of Jihad and that it was the will of Allah). It was on the A&E Biography. If it's shown again, I'll try to get an exact quote for you. If anyone has seen it and heard something different, please let me know. Thanks.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amal
10/07/01 at 23:17:17
slm, He did say that it was OK to kill civilians and he called those who committed the atrocities in New York 'stars from the stars of islam' and prayed that Allah enter them into jannatul ferdous. It made me sick to my stomach hearing him say that this was the will of Allah and linking islam to what is simply a mass-murder ,something FORBIDDEN in islam.Since when does the end justify the means? Lets remember the story of the sahabi who was fighting in one of the battles at the time of the prophet (saw) and his opponent spit on him at which point he declined to kill the man because he was afraid that he was going to transgress the limits of Allah(swt) had he killed him out of his anger for being spit on.That's the greatness of islam..We stand for justice because Allah(swt) is The JUST. Although muslims and arabs have legitimate grievances for what's happening in palestine and else where in the muslim world and US foreign policies, violance against civilians is not something that is condoned in islam. What this man is preaching is everything but islam and Allah is innocent from his allegations.What is right is right in every circumstance and wrong is wrong in every circumstance. We cannot pick and choose from the commandments of Allah what suites our ego at a particular time. Allahumma arina al-haqqa haqqan wa arzuqna ittibaeh wa arina al-batila batilan wa arzuqna ijtinabah. (O Allah show us the truth/justice as such and grant us the strenghth to follow it and show us evil as such and grant us the strength to oppose/avoid it)

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/07/01 at 21:28:02
[slm] I'd like to hear what he has to say in Arabic, without the translator's voice recorded over Osama's. My dad speaks Arabic very fluently, we could have him translate it for us in the family. Anyone have access to Al-jazeerah through satellite? Were they showing the video of Osama speaking in Arabic, or was a reporter's voice recorded over? [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
se7en
10/07/01 at 22:08:22
as salaamu alaykum, [quote]Anyone have access to Al-jazeerah through satellite? Were they showing the video of Osama speaking in Arabic, or was a reporter's voice recorded over? [/quote] Yes, I watched it in Arabic.  He said basically that the United States will have no peace until Palestine is at peace and soldiers are out of the holy land.  He brought up Iraq as well. He said that this is a war on Islam being called a "war on terrorism".  That there are two sides to this - you are either for Islam, or against Islam, and he called on all Muslims to join the side of Islam. That's all I can remember.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/07/01 at 22:34:09
It's interesting that bin Laden is using phrases like, "you are either for Islam or against Islam", when Tony Blair and George Bush have been saying, "you are either for terrorism or against it." Today, Tony Blair said the Taliban, "sided with terrorism."

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amal
10/07/01 at 22:51:37
slm, Sr. Saleema, like you i was very skeptical about the translation and that's why i went to the jazeerah web site to listen in ARABIC what he had to say,Alhamdulillah spending ten years in egypt helps in a situation like this.Let me tell you the arabic version is not that different from the english translation. Anyways here's the audio file from al-jazeerah: http://www.al-jazeera.com/mritems/streams/audio/2001/10/7/1_59226_1_13.asf

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/07/01 at 23:05:35
[slm] Well, my dad is asleep at this time. :) Thanks for the link. On NBC they were saying that Osama had admitted to the attacks, the ones in the U.S. as well as the ones elsewhere. Did he say that? [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amal
10/07/01 at 23:14:57
slm, Saleema, he did not confess but he praised their actions and prayed for them. He called them a 'star from the stars of islam' and soldiers of islam.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/08/01 at 09:24:18
This is a bit off topic, but do you think Osama bin Laden's desire to rid the U.S. military from the Arabian peninsula is partially inspired by the following hadith in Sahih Muslim? "Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim." Wasn't this something Muhammad failed to do?

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Rashid
10/07/01 at 23:25:58
[slm] se7en you have al-jazeera through satellite?  I've been trying to find info on how to get it but no luck.  I have directv and in the mornings they show 1/2 hour newscast but that's it.   Well I also saw the clip on CNN with the translator's voice.  I'm not 100% arabic fluent but I can understand some, so I was trying to listen in...I noticed he's very soft spoken and he was outlining the injustices in Iraq, Palestine, Bosnia, etc.  Then right after the CNN people ignored all that and were just going out of their way to see if he claimed responsibility for 9-11-01, I remember one was like "did you detect any coded message?" to one of the experts.   I suppose that the one good thing that came out of today's tragedy is that the masjid was packed for isha, it was almost like jumuah.  It's sad that tragedies have to occur to bring people closer to Allah. [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/07/01 at 23:56:07
[slm] I'm starting to get very angry with Osama. He is sitting in Afghanistan as a "guest" and he keeps mentioning the atrocities elsewhere in the Muslim world but he hasn't mentioned the tragedy of the Afghan people. Not that he shouldn't mention other countries, but mention Afghanis too for goodness sake! [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Merimda
10/08/01 at 00:43:09
Assalamu Alaikum, Umm I don't know if you guys know this..but just in case you don't...you can watch Al Jazeera on the net.. that's what I do.. http://www.aljazeera.net/ *** Here's the text of Usama bin Laden's speech. The translation is not all that great. There are some parts that are iffy to me bc when I heard in Arabic I understood it differently..but then again my Arabic is not all that great: *** http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011007/wl/attacks_bin_laden_text.html I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammad is his messenger. There is America, hit by God in one of its softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed, thank God for that. There is America, full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that. What America is tasting now is something insignificant compared to what we have tasted for scores of years. Our nation (the Islamic world) has been tasting this humiliation and this degradation for more than 80 years. Its sons are killed, its blood is shed, its sanctuaries are attacked, and no one hears and no one heeds. When God blessed one of the groups of Islam, vanguards of Islam, they destroyed America. I pray to God to elevate their status and bless them. Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins, and we don't hear condemnation or a fatwa (religious decree) from the rulers. In these days, Israeli tanks infest Palestine - in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam, and we don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb. When the sword comes down (on America), after 80 years, hypocrisy rears its ugly head. They deplore and they lament for those killers, who have abused the blood, honor and sanctuaries of Muslims. The least that can be said about those people is that they are debauched. They have followed injustice. They supported the butcher over the victim, the oppressor over the innocent child. May God show them His wrath and give them what they deserve. I say that the situation is clear and obvious. After this event, after the senior officials have spoken in America, starting with the head of infidels worldwide, Bush, and those with him. They have come out in force with their men and have turned even the countries that belong to Islam to this treachery, and they want to wag their tail at God, to fight Islam, to suppress people in the name of terrorism. When people at the ends of the earth, Japan, were killed by their hundreds of thousands, young and old, it was not considered a war crime, it is something that has justification. Millions of children in Iraq is something that has justification. But when they lose dozens of people in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam (capitals of Kenya and Tanzania, where U.S. embassies were bombed in 1998), Iraq was struck and Afghanistan (news - web sites) was struck. Hypocrisy stood in force behind the head of infidels worldwide, behind the cowards of this age, America and those who are with it. These events have divided the whole world into two sides. The side of believers and the side of infidels, may God keep you away from them. Every Muslim has to rush to make his religion victorious. The winds of faith have come. The winds of change have come to eradicate oppression from the island of Muhammad, peace be upon him. To America, I say only a few words to it and its people. I swear by God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither America nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it in Palestine, and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him. God is great, may pride be with Islam. May peace and God's mercy be upon you.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
zamzam
10/08/01 at 01:45:50
Asslam Alaikum! Why are there different traslation of what is supposed to be one piece of message? <<When God blessed one of the groups of Islam, vanguards of Islam, they destroyed America. I pray to God to elevate their status and bless them. >> -- from yahoo site with... <<he did not confess but he praised their actions and prayed for them. He called them a 'star from the stars of islam' and soldiers of islam. >> -- from what sis akmal wrote Also, how authentic is this source, i.e, Al-jazeera? And who controls it? Because the timing of this message as well as the message is quite calculated. I mean, this guy (Osama) has been quoted before too but never did he call them martyrs or sth or did I miss sth? I dont know arabic myself but I dont believe such crap in the midst of what is a just and fair speech overall (if you remove the above quoted line) was-salam Zamzam PS: Cold blooded murder of armless and defenceless leads to Jannah. Give me a break. I have read speeches of Mollah Omar and he comes as a very fine and well rounded person. A man of great faith. Brothers and sisters, please keep praying for the good of Muslims and the mujahideen who are up against literally everyone. May Allah give them the strength and the calmness which comes with faith in such an exacting situation. Ameen!

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/08/01 at 09:55:08
[slm] Osama bin Landen is not turning out to be such an angel after all. Let's not deny it. Al-jazeerah is a very reliable source. I would rely on them more than i'd rely on any western source. sometimes it's hard to accept the truth cuz we want the best image for out Muslim brothers and sisters and that's understandable. But when the truth is there in front of you... frankly, i'm not sure what to think. I need more time to think about this and i guess i will looking forward to what else he has to say. [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
zamzam
10/08/01 at 03:18:35
Asslam Alaikum! Well, my gut feeling is that he is saying more than necessary out of anger. And I personally understand the anger and share that. His speech in a way says -- I dont care what the world thinks of me or Muslims or Afghanis. I am a Muslim and I only fear Allah. And I am ready to hit back at enemy when and where I can. My comments: Well, even when an unjust war has been declared on you, the means does not justify the end. For example, if you think you can bring the enemy to its knees by plundering and pillaging, raping the women and children, {because that is a soft target right?} you follow your vain desires. I must say that I am of the opinion that he surely works against military targets but nah, not against civilians. Wouldnt they be burning the city of Moscow (in whatever way) when the men and women were being butchered by the communists? Did they? And no lame excuse like CIA was controlling everything... was-salam Zamzam

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
M.F.
10/08/01 at 05:13:02
[quote]Asslam Alaikum! Also, how authentic is this source, i.e, Al-jazeera? And who controls it? Because the timing of this message as well as the message is quite calculated. I mean, this guy (Osama) has been quoted before too but never did he call them martyrs or sth or did I miss sth? I dont know arabic myself but I dont believe such crap in the midst of what is a just and fair speech overall (if you remove the above quoted line) was-salam [/quote] The speech was pre-recorded and I guess it was meant to be released when the attacks occured. I don't necessarily trust Al-Jazeera.  They use the same kind of propaganda tools as CNN (for example) does but against America and Israel.  Or so it seems.  Yesterday I was watching a sort of talk show by and about Arabs living in the US, and as soon as anything was said by someone from the audience to criticize America or Israel the host cut the speaker off.   But it seems that Bin Laden trusts them. He didn't call the hijackers martyrs outright.  He did say it was Muslims (how does he know?) and he made du'a that Allah would reward them with high place in Jannah. I guess you have to see it from a certain standpoint to be able to understand why anyone could consider people like that martyrs. I still can't see it that way but I understand that for people like Bin Laden, giving America a taste of its own medicine is a noble thing to do. Wallahu a'lam

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
M.F.
10/08/01 at 05:20:22
[quote] Osama bin Landen is turning out to be such an Angel after all. Let's not deny it. Al-jazeerah is a very reliable source. I would rely on them more than i'd rely on any western source. [/quote] Assalamu alaikum Al-Jazeera aired an interview with Bin Laden from 1998.  Any Muslim who listened to it would have to admit deep down inside that what he was saying made sense to us Muslims.  Every other sentence he said was an ayah from the Qur'an or a hadeeth and if you try to go back in time and imagine when it was Muslims vs. Kuffar, you'd see that what he said was really true.  However, I for one can't agree with a fatwa that says is ok to kill American civilians cause they pay taxes to the gov't.  It's little things like this, and the latest one about askign Allah to grant Jannah to the people who committed this crime, that make me wonder how he learned to think that way and how he could believe that side by side with all the qur'an and hadeeth that he recites all the time.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/08/01 at 09:28:27
The Taliban has announced that innocent women, children, and the elderly were killed in the attacks. It sounded like the person announcing this said that 20 innocent people were killed. Can anyone confirm this? ....Ok, CNN's website says, "Speaking to reporters in Islamabad Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef said about 20 Afghan civilians were killed in Sunday's air strikes, despite U.S. and British claims that the targets were strictly military."

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amal
10/08/01 at 10:38:07
slm, Zamzam, when i said he didn't confess, i meant in the literal sense of the word. But he did say that they were muslims blessed by Allah!Which brings the question of how does he know? There's no need for us to doubt every source of information just because it doesn't suite our perception of the situation.Al-Jazeerah is a reliable source as it's the only news network in the middle east that is free to criticize world leaders in general and those in the arab and muslim world in particular. I don't think this is an anger induced speech. He's said before in an interview with John Miller of ABC "we do not differentiate between military personnel and civilians.". I heard it with my own ears in arabic. We're all angry,frustrated,and apprehensive at the whole situation and i think we're entitled to our own feelings as he is to his own. But we do need to draw the line when Allah's commands are being intentionally or unitentionally misrepresented. Our duty is to Allah(swt) not to people no matter their claims of defending islam. Unless we want to say that Allah(swt) condones and even encourages such actions wal'eyathubillah.We have to be carefull on what we attribute to the All-Mighty because we're gonna be asked about on youm el-qiyama and it won't do to say O Allah i disregarded your guidance but my intentions were good or i was too angry to do the right thing. With what face do we complain about backlash against muslims in the US and then turn around and say it's OK for muslims to take revenge against innocent civilians.That's basically what the he's saying.Islam is a guidance from Allah(swt) to mankind. There's no double standards in it. The truth is clear from the lie. I'm sorry if my words sound harsh but it's time that we face reality.Yes we have the right and obligation to defend islam and the muslimeen and the best way to do it is with our words. Most of us live in countries which have given us the freedom to speak our minds.Even if we didn't have that freedom we are still required to speak out against injustice and oppression.That's true jihad. But to cowardly bomb civilians that's MURDER and Allah and islam have nothing to do with it.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amal
10/08/01 at 16:09:07
[quote] "Speaking to reporters in Islamabad Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef said about 20 Afghan civilians were killed in Sunday's air strikes, despite U.S. and British claims that the targets were strictly military." [/quote] I cannot attest to the accuracy of that number but i'm not surprised.In fact i was expecting more than that and i suspect that the days to come will reveal more. That's what happens when people take justice in their own hands. But we will all have to answer for our actions sooner or later infront of The Supreme Judge.The King of the kings. La hawla wa la quwatta illa billahi.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
amatullah
10/08/01 at 22:29:40
Bismillah and salam, comments like these are exactly what they are hoping would happen in the ummah, that we are divided over the little things and leave the major issue of Islam being at stake: "Osama bin Landen is not turning out to be such an angel after all I'm starting to get very angry with Osama. He is sitting in Afghanistan as a "guest" and he keeps mentioning the atrocities elsewhere in the Muslim world but he hasn't mentioned the tragedy of the Afghan people He did say that it was OK to kill civilians and he called those who committed the atrocities in New York 'stars from the stars of islam' and prayed that Allah enter them into jannatul ferdous. It made me sick to my stomach hearing him say that this was the will of Allah and linking islam to what is simply a mass-murder ,something FORBIDDEN in islam. Since when does the end justify the means?" **** Why are we even bothered putting down a man who is being persecuted for a crime that most of us muslims realize the israelis were behind? Most of norht americans don't even know the truth, they follow the media. we know a little more yet we cannot support each other. What do you expect a man who is wanted dead or alive by the whole world will react to what happened for something he most liekly did not do??? Also I read the arabic version he said that a "kawkaba min kawakib alislam, 6alee3a min 6ala'e3ih" to describe the people who did it if they were muslims because the shook the US, not becuase they hurt civilians. What those words mean to me: they are like a guiding method for some to open their eyes to see what IS going on in the world. and 6alee3a is a sample or a start. He did not talk about civilians as far as i can find, nor did he say they did the right thing, he was talking about the US itself as a government and what they are doing. Nor did i read that he pray to Allah that they enter ferdaws.

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Kashif
10/09/01 at 03:10:43
[quote]This is a bit off topic, but do you think Osama bin Laden's desire to rid the U.S. military from the Arabian peninsula is partially inspired by the following hadith in Sahih Muslim? "Book 019, Number 4366: It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim." Wasn't this something Muhammad failed to do? [/quote] To answer the first part, i'm sure that it is partially (perhaps totally) the reason why b. Laden wants the American troops out of the peninsula. There is a hadith to this effect, that no two religions can reside on this peninsula at the same time. (I need to find this hadith again - i haven't come across it for a long time). And regarding the second if i remember correctly the Prophet died before doing so and the command was executed in the time of Abu Bakr/Umar. Kashif Wa Salaam
NS

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/09/01 at 08:30:26
[slm] Amatullah, Osama bin Laden needs to hire himself a Public Relations firm, you don't broadcast statements like that to the world. That's just not right. [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
humble_muslim
10/09/01 at 14:02:56
AA One word : Khawaraj.
NS

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Saleema
10/09/01 at 15:32:00
Khawaraj. What do you mean? :) [wlm]

Re: The number of Muslims killed in Sep. 11th attacks and Anis Shorrosh's idiocy
Fth016
10/09/01 at 19:14:51
Kashif, "To answer the first part, i'm sure that it is partially (perhaps totally) the reason why b. Laden wants the American troops out of the peninsula." An additional reason I've heard is that he sees the U.S. as having "impure intentions" in its installation troops in that region. He thinks that the troops are there "only" to protect the precious oil supply of the U.S. and not to protect the people of the region. "And regarding the second if i remember correctly the Prophet died before doing so and the command was executed in the time of Abu Bakr/Umar." I see. Do you know if any Yahood live in the region today? And this may sound unrelated, but under what circumstances are Sunni Muslims allowed to lie?
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