Saudi King Threatened with Explusion

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Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
bhaloo
10/08/01 at 12:24:24
slm

Shaykh Shu`aybi (HafiTHahullaah), the Mujaahid of the Scholars!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,565025,00.html

Dissident clerics warn Saudi royals

King threatened with expulsion

Nick Pelham and Brian Whitaker
Monday October 8, 2001
The Guardian

Dissident Muslim clerics in Saudi Arabia have threatened to excommunicate
the king and other members of the royal family if they support the military
strikes against Afghanistan.

The fatwas challenging the Saudi regime came as a bomb explosion in a busy
shopping area raised security fears among foreign workers. Two people,
including an American, died in the blast in the city of Khobar on Saturday.
A Briton, an American and two Filipinos were injured.

A fatwa by Sheikh Hamoud bin Oqla al-Shuaibi, a leading cleric in Burayda,
warns: "Whoever supports the infidel against Muslims is considered an
infidel... it is a duty to wage jihad on anyone who attacks Afghanistan."
The sheikh is considered one of the most learned scholars in the kingdom. He
was jailed for two months in 1995, but it is unlikely the Saudi regime would
risk trying to silence him now.

Suleiman Alwan and Ali Khodeir, two younger clerics associated with Mr
Al-Shuaibi, have issued similar declarations. The fatwas declare that the
punishment for supporting US aggression "by hand, by tongue, or by money" is
expulsion from Islam.

The suggestion that some Saudi citizens might regard their rulers as lapsed
Muslims - and therefore legitimate targets for attack - threatens to
undermine the kingdom's stability.

"The royal family is in a state of anxiety and fear," said Saad al-Fagih, of
the Movement for Islamic Reform, yesterday.

"They are aware of a few thousand people who have trained in Afghanistan in
the last few years. There is information that these people have orders to
hit them once the American strikes start."
NS
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Saleema
10/08/01 at 14:04:18
[slm]

wooooooooooooooooo hooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)   :)

uh oh. Is the FBI or CIA gonna visit me now?

Oh Allah, bring an Islamic Revolution in the Muslim world. help us, guide us, protect us from all sorts of evils, for surely you are the Best to Protect, the Best to Help, and the Best to Guide those who are astray. Oh Allah, don't let the Muslims be humiliated any more at the hands of our enemies or through our own hands. Oh Allah let the banners of Islam rise once again from every Muslim country in the world. Oh Allah strenghten the Muslims with taqwa and Iman. Oh Allah bestow your Mercy and Forgiveness on all. Oh Allah put mercifull rulers in the place of the Saud family. Oh Allah grant your Mercy and Forgivness to King Faisal. Ameen. Ameen.


I almost cried when I read Musharaf's statements about how the Muslims support his government when they clearly don't. This news brightened my day.

[wlm]
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
NewJehad
10/08/01 at 14:46:53
salama,, i got a dawa too.. ya Allah ahdum al amerikiyah,, ahdum al amerikiya, ahdum al amerikiyah..
ahdum al yahood wan nasarah,, ahdum ad democracyia,, ahdum  kullah deen ul kufr.

i got a urdu dawa as well,, mushraf murdabad mushraf murda bad,,
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
amal
10/08/01 at 15:20:29
Saleema, i was reminded of this saying: "what goes around, comes around" :)

At the start of the civil war in somalia , refugees were using whatever means they had to flee the country and a large number of them took boats that were made for fishing and attempted to cross the red sea to saudi arabia. Many of them drowned on the way, and the few that made it were forced to go back the minute they got off shore.Not only that by they also deported the ones who were living illegally in saudi arabia even before the war to djibuti.

A few months later , saudia arabia donated millions of dollars to a zoo in london. It seems that animals, were more valuable to the saudis than the lives of somali refugees.

Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Kashif
10/08/01 at 15:39:24
Sh. Ibn Jibreen too.

In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy

The eminent Sheikh al-Allaamah, ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Abdur-Rahmaan ibn
Jibreen, may Allah bless you.

Question: It is not hidden from you what has befallen our brothers in
Afghanistan, from the hardships of the enemies of Allah besieging them,
and constrained livelihood, and lack of helpers and aides, and by being
fiercely attacked from all directions by the enemies of Islam upon this
state [The Taliban State of Afghanistan]. In spite of it all, [the
government] does not cease to be firm in establishing the laws of Allah
on the earth of Allah, and thus they are in need of help and to be
allied with in their trial.

Therefore, what is the ruling regarding aiding this movement with
wealth, persons and supplications? What are your directions for the
students of knowledge and the competent, skilful people? May Allah
reward you with good.

Response:

Praise be to Allah and that suffices, and peace be upon His chosen
slaves.

To proceed: When the Muslims throughout the world come to know that a
group from their brothers have been oppressed and harmed, it becomes
obligatory upon them to aid them and to strive to help them with
whatever they can from the wealth, persons, opinions and statements.
[Especially] when we know of the State of Taliban
in Afghanistan that it rules with the Laws of Allah, establishes the
Islamic education [system], prevents the means to Shirk, demolishes
worshipped objects and idols, exhibits the manifestation of Islam by
announcing the call for prayers, establishes the Friday [prayers] and
congregational [prayers], prohibits sins and the forbidden acts, as
indeed these are all apparent signs of their good intentions and sound
faith. And since
the Kafir states, such as the Christian, the Jews, the Communists and
the Atheists, all of them, are against the correct [version of] Islam,
and similarly the Kafir innovators, for verily it is obligatory upon the
Muslims to help their brothers in this [Taliban] State of Muslims, and
to endeavour to repel the plots of their enemies, those who seek to
cripple the Muslims’ movement and to exterminate them. For Allah the
Exalted
has said:

“And co-operate upon righteousness and piety”,

and in the Hadeeth:

“Make Jihaad against the Mushrikeen with your wealth, your persons and
your tongues”.

The Muslims should aid their brothers with wealth and men, and should
increase in their supplications for them, for victory and dominion, as
Allah is the one who responds to calls of those who supplicate, and
indeed He is All-Hearing and Near.

Stated and Written by
'Abdullaah ibn 'Abdur-Rahmaan al-Jibreen
The retired member of al-Ifta.

And may the Salaah and Salaam be upon Muhammad, and his followers and
companions.

[Signed]
(Original Arabic)
http://anahona.vr9.com/fatwa1.jpg
NS
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
BroHanif
10/08/01 at 16:55:31
[quote]Dissident Muslim clerics in Saudi Arabia have threatened to excommunicate the king and other members of the royal family if they support the military strikes against Afghanistan[/quote]

I think this is the best news for me so far, I'm close to tears.



[quote]A few months later , saudia arabia donated millions of dollars to a zoo in london. It seems that animals, were more valuable to the saudis than the lives of somali refugees[/quote]

Lets not start another fight about Saudis. Please refrain from talking about my fellow brothers and sisters like that, If you really met a true arab you would know brother that they are the most humble people for example when you share a meal with em they will share the food and not eat before you do, they will guide you and help you evey step of the way. And Above all Arab and Pushto hospitality is the best in the world,  the above actions are not of the pious Arabs.

Perhaps one should spend time in the vast desert country like Saudia and Afghanistan to experice these delights.


Hanif
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Saleema
10/08/01 at 17:00:03
[slm]

BroHanif, he/she was not referring to Arabs, or Saudi people, but rather the Saudi government.

[wlm]
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
amal
10/08/01 at 18:41:40
slm,

I want to clarify one thing here.The thread is about the saudi government and hence i made my remarks about them. I did not mention the saudi people.



Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Rashid
10/08/01 at 22:44:27
[slm]

Here is a disturbing article that was published in the Miami Herald today:

[url]http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/terrorism/digdocs/116148.htm[/url]

[quote]``While they were complaining in public about the West attacking other Muslims, in private they wanted to know if this time we were going to finish the job,'' said one senior official involved in assembling the coalition. ``They did not want to cooperate with us and then have bin Laden coming after them. Basically, they told us they want bin Laden dead.''[/quote]

Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
BroHanif
10/09/01 at 04:00:43
[quote]The thread is about the saudi government and hence i made my remarks about them[/quote]

So brother have you spent time with the arab government or royal family ? Many in the royal family and government want to bring back Islam especillay one crown prince. There is even talk of putting somebody good in power of the army, somebody who is concerned about deen.

I have friends who have close links with the Amir of the Harram ain and they have very good links with the royal family and government, not all of them are bad guys many of them are keen in dawah and for the spread of Islam, in fact none of them are bad.

Many of them have donated more money for Islam than you and me could ever earn, they have dawah projects all over the world and yes they do help the Palestinian cause and the many oppressed countries, it was the royal family and the government that contributed to the re-building of Al-Aqsa.

Don't just look at one incident, why is it as muslims we always look at bad and not good in the actions of others. We all have our faults, all governments have problems, but you should cover faults of the believers not expose them. So what if they contributed to the zoo were you there to check thier intention, Allah is there to check it not you.

What has the prophet saws said about keeping animals ?. Do you know.

A believer is a mirror to another believer.
A believer is a brother to another believer.
He saves him from losses.
He safeguards his interests in his absence.

Hanif
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Hania
10/09/01 at 04:46:01


[quote]
We all have our faults, all governments have problems, but you should cover faults of the believers not expose them.

Hanif[/quote]

What if the 'believers' continue practicing their faults?

The main idea of exposing the faults of our fellow belivers is so they may change their policies and perform what is Islamically right towards their muslim bros/sisters. If we keep their faults undercover or ignore them then they will continue doing what is wrong and those who are too 'polite' to say anything will have to suffer the injustice of their actions.

Look at Turkey. An Islamic country, yet the government prides itself on secularism so scarves aren't welcome in state buildings and institutions. Yet an Islamist parliamentarian Merve Kavakci wore a head scarf to the opening of Turkey's parliament in April, cos she has guts!

Sr Hania :-)

Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
BroHanif
10/09/01 at 06:07:02
Sis Hania,

[quote]If we keep their faults undercover or ignore them then they will continue doing what is wrong and those who are too 'polite' to say anything will have to suffer the injustice of their actions[/quote]

There is a correct way of giving somebody dawah and an incorrect way.
As in the verse

AN NAHL (16:125)

Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright

Do we do this today ? can we do this on the board ?

Yes you should invite people to good and forid evil but it is a process which should be done justly otherwise a person may go further away from deen. Merely saying that this is bad and that is right is not the way. Islam is not just black and white in a sense nor are people you need to talk to them and understand the reason why such a decision was made.

Insh-alllah I'll post more later.



Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
se7en
10/09/01 at 06:29:29
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

[quote]The main idea of exposing the faults of our fellow belivers is so they may change their policies and perform what is Islamically right towards their muslim bros/sisters.[/quote]

I don't see how discussing them on this forum would do that.  If this is something you are seriously concerned about, get involved in a campaign or an organization that's working to reform such policies, or take it upon yourself to do something about it.  What's trashing them on a Muslim message board gonna do?  Not much.

And, I think there are better things we can do with our time, even here in the Madina.  There are many questions being asked in the Madrasa that are not being answered.  If you want to do something to help our our Muslim brothers and sisters, head over the Madrasa and answer their requests for sincere advice and support.

I think people are spending a little *too much* time in the Ummah Community Center.  Check out the other folders, get a good discussion going on something positive and beneficial.

Let's try inshaAllah to make the Madina a home for positive conversation, engaging discussions, motivation for khayr, and support and strength for our brothers and sisters.  

wasalaamu alaykum.  

ps - Just a small side note - that's an awful translation of al-Shuaibi's fatwa.  "Infidel"??? This was a term actually used by Crusaders to refer to Muslims.  Media loves to associate this term with Islam.  Sorry, that really irks me.
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Mujaahid
10/09/01 at 06:54:05
as salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi ta'ala wa barakaatuh
Masha Allaah good advice from sister se7en - there is a wisdom and manner with which to give da'wah, and to which to call people to that which they do wrong. The better approach to is to do this within, as se7en suggests, a framework that allows the person to use such work as a firstly a reminder to themselves, because through such remembrance there comes a greater understanding - and if we look this was the way of the scholars of past. An example is the Shaykh al Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, the sword against the innovations of his time - if you look to his approach to the da'wah. always he used to expound and study in meticulous detail BEFORE he brought the evidence for refutation, the subject of the deen he had seen innovated upon. And in doing so his subsequent approach was always full of wisdom, so much that when his student Ibn al Qayyim took the same approach, he wrote some of the most humbling and heart rendering works of the Ummah.

And where there is wrong, we reply to that in a manner which hides the deeds of our brothers, as BroHanif pointed out - this way the advice is more likely to be taken as sincere and genuine, as the human beings have pride and the believer seeks to always strive to eliminate that, when giving advice and recieving it.

I also wanted to point out something very very important to the brothers and sisters, which se7en reminded me off - the translations floating around in the western media. That fatwa was translated by a brother elsewhere, and it did not contain this word infidel, and clearly it is being placed there for propaganda - and also you will notice the translation of the statement given from Usaamah bin laden, this is so widely inconsistent in the western press that sometimes you would think it a completely different statement - please be careful brothers and sisters from whom you take your translations from and whom you refer others, especially non-Muslims to - propaganda is something the enemies of Islaam are using in addition to arms and soldiers, and their people are controlled by that, spoon fed and mediated in every aspect of their life. So be careful to 1. Take with a pinch of salt a translation of Arabic from any of the western news reporting agencies and 2. NOT to point others to refer to those same translations.

And Allaah will bring the truth forward.

was salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh

Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Hania
10/09/01 at 08:29:18

[quote]Sis Hania,

Yes you should invite people to good and forid evil but it is a process which should be done justly otherwise a person may go further away from deen. Merely saying that this is bad and that is right is not the way. Islam is not just black and white in a sense nor are people you need to talk to them and understand the reason why such a decision was made.

Insh-alllah I'll post more later.

[/quote]

Yes Bro AbuFathima

I agree with what you are saying here. :)
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
amal
10/09/01 at 09:45:42
slm,

It's true all none of us is perfect. We all have our shortcomings, including governments and government leaders.

I'm sorry if my previous remark gave you the impression that i thought the saudi government was all bad, as many have pointed out they did many other good things. Clearly my intentions were not that.I was simply pointing out an incident that i found ironic. It's a sad day when your fellow muslims ignore your call for help and it's non-muslims who come to your resque,specially when the muslims have the means to help and are indeed more qualified to so.There were those who helped like egypt and syria by giving asylum to refugees but most arab and muslim countries waited untill the united nations headed by the US came to try and resolve our problems.Only then were they confident enough to send their troops to help bring peace to my country.

I have lived ten years in egypt and i'm very gratefull to Allah that i spent my teen years in such a country, i wouldn't trade them for anything else except maybe living in somalia in peace.I don't believe i would be who i am today if it were not for the chance to live in a muslim country which enabled me to build a muslim identity.

I repeat my remarks were not meant to be taken generally, i was talking about a specific incident.But if i angered or offended anyone , i ask forgiveness.

Wasslaam


Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Kashif
10/09/01 at 10:36:14
[quote]I have friends who have close links with the Amir of the Harram ain and they have very good links with the royal family and government, not all of them are bad guys many of them are keen in dawah and for the spread of Islam, in fact none of them are bad.[/quote]
Gimme a break.
NS
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
nawaz
10/09/01 at 11:25:04
In a Hadith narrated by Bin Masoud, the Prophet (SAW) said: "Nay, by Allah, you have to enjoin the good and deny the bad (munkar), and deal with the unjust ruler severely, and force him to the truth, otherwise Allah will strike your hearts with each other." The Muslims deny the munkar by bringing him to task unless he showed open disbelief in his ruling. Thereafter, denying the munkar will by raising the sword in the face of the ruler, as came in the hadith of Obada bin As-Samit on the Oath of Allegiance (Bai'a), whers the Prophet (SAW) was asked about raising the sword in the face of the unjust ruler, he answered, "No, unless you see art open disbelief, upon which you have a proof from Allah". In another narration "clear disbelief"~ and in a third one , "...unless the disobedience to Allah is open"; and in a narration by Abmad, "..unless he orders you
with an open sin".
NS
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Arsalan
10/09/01 at 12:20:45
[slm]

What was the original word that the Shaykh used for "infidel"?

Kafir?
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
BroHanif
10/09/01 at 16:53:11
On this board there are so many scholars it amazes me. Man it's kewl for us muslims to fight together. Those muslims who will be left after the fight will be slaughterd like lambs.

Sometimes I wish the kufr gave each and evey single muslim  an
AK-47 to see what would happen, then again we'd do more damage with our tongues to each others hearts so why bother.


Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Arsalan
10/09/01 at 18:07:36
[slm]
[quote]Man it's kewl for us muslims to fight together. [/quote]BroHanif, who's fighting who?  I seriously do not see it!  Just because a few people may differ with each other about a certain issue (or a few issues) and voice those differences doesn't mean that they are fighting.  Or does it?  
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
M.F.
10/10/01 at 05:08:27
Assalasmu alaikum
To tell you the truth I still don't understand the first post.  The Saudi King was threated with Expulsion?  From where, or what?  Or was it excommunication?   If that's what it was then I believe it means he would be made a Kafir, is that it?  
Also, I don't understand how a Mufti can have the power to expell the king  of Saudi Arabia.
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Rashid
10/10/01 at 16:12:08
[slm]

It is a grave sin for a muslim to declare another muslim kaafir.  Unless the so-called king makes a public statement announcing that he has left Islam, we should refrain from such insinuations.
Also, "excommunication" is a christian concept.  It was applied in the middle ages to those who did not follow the pope as a result of the protestant reformation.  The catholics branded the protestants as heretics and excommunicated them from the christian faith.  This is just one of the many examples of how the christians went astray.  There is no excommunication in Islam, as no muslim has the authority to brand another muslim a kaafir, unless the one who apostasizes makes public his unbelief. Salman Rushdie for example.  And this is my understanding.
I don't support the house of saud, as their support of the slaughter of innocent muslims in Afghanistan is well known.  On the other hand, this same house has provided humanitarian relief to muslims in Bosnia, Chechnya, and Palestine.  And Allah knows best what is in their hearts.

[wlm]
Re: Saudi King Threatened with Explusion
Saleema
10/10/01 at 18:01:36
[slm]

You are right bother Rashid, there is no concept of "excommunication" in Islam, but there is something similar to it in Islam if I'm not mistaken. I can't give you an example from our history of something like this but in Chechnia this year the scholars there declraed a Muslim (ex-Muslim now?) a kafir on the grounds that he helped the Russians in some way against the Muslims.

[wlm]


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