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'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
ahmer
10/08/01 at 15:49:31
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,564960,00.html 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country' Hamza Yusuf is arguably the west's most influential Islamic scholar. Many Muslims find his views hard to stomach, but he is advising the White House on the current crisis, and today he will be talking to religious leaders in the UK. Jack O'Sullivan meets him Monday October 8, 2001 The Guardian A few days ago, for reasons that remain rather unclear, the FBI decided to pay a call on the home of Hamza Yusuf. "He isn't home," said his wife. "He's with the president." The FBI agents did not seem to believe her; they called the White House to check. "He's got 100% security clearance," said the voice at the other end. The FBI agents did not return. Yusuf, an Islamic teacher, was indeed with the president. At the meeting, he advised Bush that the military term Operation Infinite Justice was blasphemous to Muslims. The president listened. He said he was sorry that the Pentagon, which chose the title, had no theologians on staff. The name was changed. Then, after joining in with God Save America, Yusuf stood outside the White House and delivered an unequivocal message, which even Margaret Thatcher could not fault. "Islam was hijacked on that September 11 2001, on that plane as an innocent victim," he said. Imam Hamza Yusuf, who runs an Islamic institute in California, is fast becoming a world figure as Islam's most able theological critic of the suicide hijacking. This afternoon he will address British religious leaders at the House of Lords on the subject. His speech will upset many Muslim radicals here. A charismatic and popular speaker, Yusuf openly declares his belief that Islam is in a mess. He wants Muslims to return to their "true faith", stripped of violence, intolerance and hatred. Nor does he pay much deference to the states in which many Muslims live. When we meet, he declares: "Many people in the west do not realise how oppressive some Muslim states are - both for men and for women. This is a cultural issue, not an Islamic one. I would rather live as a Muslim in the west than in most of the Muslim countries, because I think the way Muslims are allowed to live in the west is closer to the Muslim way. A lot of Muslim immigrants feel the same way, which is why they are here." His rise to prominence is even more extraordinary given his unusual background. Hamza Yusuf, 42, started life as Mark Hanson, son of two US academics, only converting at 17. Thirty years ago, he seemed destined not for Islamic scholarship, but for the Greek Orthodox priesthood. Then, a near-death experience in a car accident and reading the Koran diverted him towards Mecca. But he cannot be easily dismissed as a western patsy, a "collaborator", as his opponents have already dubbed him, or as Bush's "pet Muslim". Trained for more than a decade by the best Islamic scholars in the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Morocco and Mauretania, Yusuf's learning commands considerable respect, particularly with the English-speaking elites of traditionally Muslim states. Although he calls on Muslims to see what is good in western society, he has a long track record of criticising western decadence, injustice and impoverished spirituality. "He confronts what it is to be young, British and Muslim," says Fuad Nahdi, publisher of Q-News, the Muslim monthly magazine. "He shows there is life beyond beards, scarves and halal meat. He inspires confidence that you can build Islam in the west from all the local ingredients. You do not have to include political or theo logical burdens from traditional parts of the Muslim world." Grainy videos of his sermons sell in their thousands and hint that he is not cut from the same cloth as teachers from the Indian sub-continent or Arabia. His goatee beard is almost fashionable. Sporting a turban plus an American accent, he is curiously familiar. Could he be that singer from the Monkees, I wonder momentarily. However, in the flesh, his angular features, intellectual intensity and learned, didactic style recall another American icon: Malcolm X. Yusuf has just arrived in Britain from Rome. Shaking my hand, he buzzes with excitement after attending an inter-faith procession for peace. "It was the feast of St Francis of Assisi," he says. "It was such an ironic choice. Did you know St Francis persuaded the Pope to let Christians make a pilgrimage to Assisi instead of going on the crusades?" We sit cross-legged on rugs on the floor of a suburban Buckinghamshire house. It is home to his old friends, white British converts to Islam. It is October but tea, delicious dried mangoes and dates are served in a room hot enough for a desert nomad. The imam quickly turns to the World Trade Centre attack - an act of "mass murder, pure and simple". Suicide, he says, is haram, prohibited by the Koran, as is the killing of innocent civilians. He quotes Koranic texts demonstrating that the suicide bombers do not qualify as martyrs. He even finds a verse outlawing flag-burning. "Many Muslims seem to be in deep denial about what has happened," he says. "They are coming up with different conspiracy theories and don't entertain the real possibility that it was indeed Muslims who did this. Yet we do have people within our ranks who have reached that level of hatred and misguidance." Indeed, he sympathises with Margaret Thatcher's statement that British Muslims have not been loud enough in condemnation. "There may be some truth in it," he says. "Some Muslims tried to explain what has happened. But if you say you condemn something and then try to explain the background, it can mistakenly sound like a justification, as though this is their comeuppance." His hard-line attitude to extremists in Britain would be unsayable for any mainstream politician keen to retain any respectability. "I would say to them that if they are going to rant and rave about the west, they should emigrate to a Muslim country. The good will of these countries to immigrants must be recognised by Muslims." It is as though he has gone through a second, possibly more radical conversion than the first from Christianity. He regrets speeches he himself has made in the past, peppered as they were with the occasional angry statements about Jews and America that are a staple of much Muslim oratory. Days before the September 11 killings, he made a speech warning that "a great, great tribulation was coming" to America. He is sorry for saying that now. "September 11 was a wake-up call to me," he says. "I don't want to contribute to the hate in any shape or form. I now regret in the past being silent about what I have heard in the Islamic discourse and being part of that with my own anger." His great concern is that Muslim thinking has sunk into theological shallowness that allows violent fundamentalists to fill the vacuum. Colonialism and successor powers, he contends, dismantled the great Islamic learning institutions, leaving a poverty of great scholarship. "We Muslims have lost theologically sound understanding of our teaching," he says. "We are living through a reformation, but without any theologians to guide us through it. Islam has been hijacked by a discourse of anger and the rhetoric of rage. We have lost our bearings because we have lost our theology." He has been examining the backgrounds of the extremists. The consistent feature, he says, is that they have been educated in the sciences rather than the humanities. "So they see things in very simplistic, black-and-white terms. They don't understand the subtleties of the human soul that you get, for example, from poetry. Take the Iliad, for example. It is the ultimate text on war, yet you never know whether Homer is really on the side of the Greeks or the Trojans. It helps you understand the moral ambiguities of war." Yusuf's language has a rare cultural fluency shifting easily between the Bible and the Koran, taking in, within a few breaths, Shakespeare, Thoreau, John Locke, Rousseau, Jesse James, Dirty Harry and even, at one point, the memoirs of General George Paton: "Did you realise," he asks, "that Paton wrote in his diary on his first day in Morocco, 'Just finished the Koran. A good book. Makes interesting reading.' " We finish our tea. Another convert, Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, is waiting to speak to the new arrival. I suggest to Yusuf that life could get a lot tougher now he has broken ranks. "I will get a lot of flak from Muslim countries, because times are so emotional they are losing the ability to reason things through." What about physical danger? "Yes, I think there is a real risk from ignorant people who have no respect for divergent opinions. There are Muslim fascists who are intellectually bankrupt. The only way they can argue is to eliminate the voices they don't agree with."

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/08/01 at 16:45:20
[slm] wow........ Oh my God...  :0 The west is there too. In Turkey, with their hijab banning, the US's great ally, it is in the oil fields of Saudi Arabia, it is in Pakistan, it is in Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Tajikistan... wow. wow. Inshallah, as soon as circumstances allow, i'm heading for Pakistan or Nigeria. Inshallah. Inshallah. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Anonymous
10/09/01 at 07:07:56
Assalam-o-alaikum I dont know much about Dr. Hamza Yusef and I am only a student of Islam (Quran and Hadith), but I could not resist thinking: Even if we assume that the Muslims are wrong and intolerant and violent, does the Quran ask us to forget about our brothers and sisters in distress and ignorance? If we are to spread the message of the Quran among the non-Muslims, should we forget about the Muslim world, I guess most of the Muslims are not intolerant or anything, most of them are ignorant, why because most of the educated among them has left their own countries, probably not because of their freedom or rights but for a better life, better economic conditions in the West. If the respected Dr. is a Muslim today, it is because of Allah SWT's rahmah and hidayah and then possibly because of some of those oppressed, violent, and intolerant Muslims who showed him the way to Allah. Have we ever thought of a life of a typical mosque Imam or a moulvi like we so often look down upon him in a far off place in the far off province of Pakistan or India or Afghanistan.... (and there are many such places) who is just living by the bread that villagers have been so "generous" enough to donate him but at least he is doing whatever service he can do, given his conditions. Have we ever thought of reviving Islam there? Are we brave enough to go and ask the village chief not to marry his sister to the Quran? I guess not. Any body knows the problem of being the first-educated child in the family? I know most of us are used to living in a very relaxed way of life with schooling and anything. My father told me of a friend of him who was one. He and his mother had a real challenge when he started studying because he was to be the first educated person in the whole family. The mother would go door-to-door to some semi-educated persons so that she could get an answer for a problem that her child had from school. And just imagine if he got older and educated and then forgot about rest of his family just because they were ignorant or illitrate or they dont know how to speak eloquently, or bcos they dont know and understand what he knows, would that be good on his part? Most of the Muslim world is oppressed, yes but why? have we really ever thought about it. Personally I think most of the blame is on the educated class... the educated class is the one in the military or in the civil service and is the ruling elite and they are the most corrupt of them all. The rest of the educated class, the professionals, us, they found an easy way out... to get out of the country of their origin as soon as they are educated enough to earn good money and once they get out they start cursing their own culture, country and soemtimes even religion. I dont blame all of the educated guys, there are some very well known figures that are doing this Jihad at them moment. I know that Dr Yusef is an American but right now he is speaking the same language as any other western government official. He is not looking at the hatred in the statements of Bush or Berlusconi and possibly being more than apologetic. Some of the "knowledgeable" persons I know say what is happening in Afghanistan at the moment is not Jihad, rather there had been no Jihad since a very long time.... wow.....  there was no Jihad in Bosnia, Chechenya....Palestine, Kashmir or any where.... they are just political war games.... that Afghanistan should handover Osama to US, when asked of proof or evidence they said if US did not have the evidence she would not have acted like that. I wonder what are the views of Dr Hamza Yusef on the present situation in Afghanistan. Personally I have never agreed with the Taleban philosophy, but does that mean that we forget about them in their hour of need. They may have been wrong but they are still our brothers. If one of the brothers is ignorant or even wrong, do we spurn him? it is the responsibility of the other brother to show him the truth, if he disregards it, that is another matter. I dont know, may be I have carried the subject too far, but if I am wrong, please correct me and lead me to the truth. I also would like to apologize to Dr. Hamza Yusef if I have said anything wrong or disrespectful to him. Wassalam

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/09/01 at 08:14:54
[slm] I agree with your statements Anon. I was very hurt to read that from Hamza Yusuf, he has been such an inspiration to me. I put away his tapes now. I'd rather live in a Muslim country with the ignorance and the poverty, than live in any western coutry where they are invading my privacy and listening in on our conversations and threatening us in other ways. I really do hope to move away one day inshallah. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
se7en
10+09/01 at 08:23:43
[quote]I put away his tapes now.[/quote] I don't see how disliking the comments that have been attributed to him in a particular article make his tapes any less beneficial.

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Arsalan
10/09/01 at 12:31:51
Ditto se7en. People of knowledge are prone to make mistakes just like we are.  Because they make a mistake on a certain matter or issue doesn't mean that everything else that they have ever talked talked about is useless or lacks any benefit.  Many scholars in the past have been through phases in their lives.  Some of them gave absolutely ridiculous fatawa in their lives.  Some of them started out pious, but became deviant towards the end of their life.  Some of them started out deviant, but became pious in the end.  Some of them had various phases of deviancy and piety in their lives.  Imam Ghazali is a great example of this.   I'm not saying that Hamza Yusuf has become a deviant (astaghfirullah), but simply because we disagree with his approach towards addressing the current political turmoil in the world doesn't mean that his previous teachings about various Islamic tenets all need to be thrown out the window. I don't agree with a lot of what Hamza Yusuf has said in the past month.  But I am still listening to his "Purification of the Heart" series in my car every day (for the second time), benefitting from it a great deal alhamdulillah.  At the same time, I pray to Allah (swt) that he guides Hamza Yusuf to say the right things, and to be a true ambassador of Islam and a leader of Muslims in the western world. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi a barakatuh.

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Kashif
10/09/01 at 14:05:21
assalaamu alaikum I agree with anon. And i disagree with others. My comments third paragraph onwards aren't directed at Br. Hamza but leadership generally. Before that though i must say i don't believe the 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country' statement is correct at all. It seems to imply that the forces behind the oppression in Muslim countries is home produced: "if you don't like it here go and see how you like living under the Egyptian government..." But who props up the corrupt rulers in our countries? Who props up the Saudi family? The butcher Mubarak regime? Who created Saddam Hussain? If one hates the West it isn't fair to tell him/her to go back home because there they will face oppression created and backed by the very same Western powers. ... At this hour of desperation when Muslims are looking towards their knowledgable ones for advice and guidance, what we're hearing is the same as that which we've heard from Blair & Co. ... "this is not the work of true Muslims, etc. etc." But where is the solidarity with the Muslim Afghanis? I mean who are you standing with - is all that you can do is condemn the attacks in 'the strongest terms' and not condemn American terrorism in the strongest terms? One could argue that they have been speaking for Muslims in Afghanistan on TV but that footage hasn't been shown, but what about other media? What about making statements on their websites which can be mass distributed on mailing lists? The reality is that with only a few exceptions such statements do not exist. What does exist from leaders of Muslim organisations is pathetic sell-out stuff like this: "It was expected," [xxxx], president of the [xxxxx], said of the strikes. "I think that's what they deserved. I hope something good comes of it and that innocent lives are not lost." Masha'allah - the Muslims of Afghanistan are getting what they deserve, and that from the president of one of the largest Muslim organisations in N. America. Kashif Wa Salaam

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
humble_muslim
10/09/01 at 14:02:12
AA Truth hurts.  I am not a fan of Hamza Yusuf, but I have been thinking along the same lines as him for many years.  The bottom line is this : when we live in the West, we have an absolute duty of Dawah to th enon muslims.  Anyone not doing this is comitting a sin.  Yet all I seem to have heard over the years in khutbas, halaqas and khatiras is HATRED directed to the non muslims.
NS

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/09/01 at 15:30:04
I'm not saying that Hamza Yusuf has become a deviant (astaghfirullah), but simply because we disagree with his approach towards addressing the current political turmoil in the world doesn't mean that his previous teachings about various Islamic tenets all need to be thrown out the window. There are other people that i can turn to for inspiration besides Hamza Yusuf. Of course, his lectures aren't useless now and won't be ever, cuz he's speaking from the Quran and Sunnah. But everytime I will listen to them this article will pop up in my head and his statement "If you hate the west emigrate to a Muslims country." Learner, maybe the halaqas you go to are filled with hate towards Muslims. The ones I go to are not. Don't make such a sweeping generalization. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
uzma
10/09/01 at 17:03:47
Assalamualaikum I just wanted to say we should be very very careful in these times of turmoil about what we say towards fellow muslims, expecially poeople with kowledge who have inspired so many of us. I have been listening to Br. Hamza Yusuf's tapes for a while, his insight into the Dajjalic world order we live in today, as well as illustrous tafseers of Quranic Ayahs. I think I could safely say Br. Hamza is far more knowledgeable about the deen as well as far more aware of the games world poticians are playing with the muslims than any of us on the board. Listening to his talks on the present world order, I find him to be a real careful observer, who sees far beyond the superficial fallacies presented to us by politicians. I also find him condemning anger among muslims again and again. His motto is always along the lines of taking action and stop the slogans muslims have been reduced to. Judging from his previous talks, I believe he may have deep diplomatic reasons for his recent comments which may be far more meaningful and effective than just angry speeches/comments which just makes the muslim world look even more stupid and feable as the superpower carries on its brutality anyway. We need to face our present situation with hikmah and not just anger. There is no doubt that the state we are in reflects the weakness of our Ummah and this is why western powers are exploiting our governments, lands and resources. So yes, the west IS to blame, yet Allah will not change our situation till we change ourselves. At this time the Ummah needs to unite more than ever, we need to take long term strategies, we need to educate not only ourselves but non-muslims as well about our noble deen. I feel Br. Hamza Yusuf may be working along this direction. His comments are obviously attracting the media to him and he may be working towards utilising that as a tool for dawah. Just a few thoughts... Wassalam, Uzma.

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
BroHanif
10/09/01 at 17:50:52
My friend went to this conference in London a couple of days ago. I'm surprised this came out when no recording devices were allowed for anyone. Anyway, Shiekh Hamza Yusuf said a lot of things that are intentionally missed and it's not really correct for us to judge him by the post of 'The Guardian'. You really had to be there to understand him my friend said. But one thing is for sure he said "we muslims need to wake up, this Sept 11th was the wake up call." I wonder if Pro Plus works on Muslims(Bosnia)...?? [quote]The west is there too. ...it is in Pakistan, it is in Jordan, Egypt, Indonesia, Tajikistan...[/quote] [quote]Inshallah, as soon as circumstances allow, i'm heading for Pakistan or Nigeria. Inshallah. Inshallah.[/quote] Won't you be in the West then ?

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
yasmin1975
10/09/01 at 18:31:19
Asalamu alaykum warahma tuhlahi wabarakatuh, I pray to the Almighty that this post recieves you during a period of strength, hope and purity. I reread the article in the Guardian post where Shaykh Hamza Yusuf was interviewed. The second time I read thouroughly and I noticed that although the titl of the artilce is in inverted commas, these words are not mentioned throughtout the article.  According to the article what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf does say is "I would say to them that if they are going to rant and rave about the west, they should emigrate to a Muslim country. The good will of these countries to immigrants must be recognised by Muslims." Many Muslims have been upset by these words, in my opinion Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is making some very valid points. In western countries from my experience which have much more freedom to practice our deen without fear of ramifications or exile. In these so-called Islamic countries prisons are littered with shuykh whos opinions do not give rise or support the local government or alternatively because there is fear that their words will cause civil unrest. Alhamduliah, we have the opportunity to live in western countries where there are opportunites for us to develop spiritually and morally as Muslims and where we are free to call others to Islam. May Allah (swt) continue to guide us until the day of Judgement and all the ummah and our learned scholars such as Shaykh Hamza Yusuf. Ameen I am very interested in reading Homers Iliad and General George Patons memoirs. If anyone has the references for these I would be particularly interested. JazakAllah Yasmin

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
ahmer
10/09/01 at 19:21:14
[slm] I re-read the article for the 5th time just now, i am at a loss to understand what's so wrong about it. Is it that he said the whole truth and not half, that's bothering us!! The knowledge he has should make him more eligible than us to comment on such situations. I just say to his horrible defamers (not anyone of you) that i meet, "Just look at the thousands of young Americans who are "Muslims" just due to his speech, cassettes and videos. He has created a whole generation of good young Muslims and we are soo indebted to him just for this. A point of view about leaving the place you hate (which is a sound principle) cannot make him an outcast. you can differ on the logical principle but how can it lead one to neglect all the good work he has done. Personally i feel that i couldn't have been a better Muslim without him and i would be indebted to him for life. and Imam Siraj at the MSA NE conf said, "From now on I will do what some people won't like, I will speak out against the oppressive regimes of the Muslim countries as much as i can, this is something we haven't done yet" I think it's the same thing what Shaykh Hamza is saying!! [wlm] ahmer

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/09/01 at 20:24:39
I have been listening to Br. Hamza Yusuf's tapes for a while, his insight into the Dajjalic world order we live in today, The dajall and the US are brothers according to Hamza Yusuf. He said that anything 'bad' he has said about the West he's sorry for it and that it was a mistake on his part. Many Muslims have been upset by these words, in my opinion Shaykh Hamza Yusuf is making some very valid points. In western countries from my experience which have much more freedom to practice our deen without fear of ramifications or exile. Really? Taking off your hijab? Taking off the turban? Shaving the beards is freedom? That's news to me. To be able not to say anything but politially correct things is freedom? these so-called Islamic countries prisons are littered with shuykh whos opinions do not give rise or support the local government or alternatively because there is fear that their words will cause civil unrest. Ever heard of Imam Jmil al-Amin? Ever hear of secret evidence and how many Muslims and Arabs have been arrested on the basis of Secret Evidence and most are still there? Without *trials*, without *knowing* for what crime they are there, with *limited* access to their laywers. Freedom? Have you heard of the blind sheikh who's in jail right now? His name escapes my memory at this moment, I just woke up about 15 minutes ago am feeling groggy. >>>need to face our present situation with hikmah>>> What's Hikmah? I know the meaning of it, but how do you think we should go about dealing with this? >>>m very interested in reading Homers Iliad and General George Patons memoirs. If anyone has the references for these I would be particularly interested.>>> I read those in high school for english class. hard read, but good. www.amazon.com you cand find them at any bookstore. >>>'t you be in the West then ?>>> No. The west is there in Muslim lands. It's not *the* west. At least over there they won't be listening in on my conversations on the phone. >>>mam Siraj at the MSA NE conf said, "From now on I will do what some people won't like, I will speak out against the oppressive regimes of the Muslim countries as much as i can, this is something we haven't done yet" I think it's the same thing what Shaykh Hamza is saying!>>> Why haven't they been speaking out against the Muslim regimes before? It's about high time they started doing that. Not too many people will be upset, maybe a few. So does this mean, that our leaders and we should stop criticizing the oppressive tactics of the US and the West that they carry out in thier own soil and abroad? Can't we criticize the West and the Muslim countries at the same time? And Sheikh Hamza Yusuf will now stop criticizing the west cuz he will be busy criticizing the Muslim countries? He did say he's sorry for what he has said in the past. I wonder what will ever happen to Imam Jamil al-Amin now? Have people forgotten him? [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
ahmer
10/09/01 at 21:30:15
imam jamil al amin? it was the mainstream org that forgot to do anything about it and these were the leaders who forced this issue, otherwise who cared about him until Shaykh Hamza and Imam Siraj talked about him.!

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
ahmer
10/09/01 at 21:37:07
[quote] No. The west is there in Muslim lands. It's not *the* west. At least over there they won't be listening in on my conversations on the phone. [/quote] believe me sister!!! i have been to a lot of them!! it's a lot scary than just tappin phone lines, it's the extreme to ur extreme imagination! You can't spell the name of the king there!! serious!! and whatever exceptions we have is definitely the rule here, why not admit it!!

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/09/01 at 23:11:52
[slm] You can curse the President or the dictator in pakistan and no would care. i'm from there. don't know any kings. don't see much difference in the west and the east. except the west is rich and the muslim countries are 2 steps ahead of their western counterparts in oppressing the people. Anyway, I didn't say anything about Hamza Yusuf and Siraj Wahaj forgeting about Jamil al-Amin. I posed that question about the people. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
momineqbal
10/09/01 at 23:23:31
[slm], I was at the speech Imam Hamza Yusuf gave at a fundraiser at UC Irvine for Imam Jamil Al-Amin (for which the FBI came over to pay him a visit). He said at the speech, the greatest martyrdom is to speak the truth on the face of the tyrant and be killed for it. Hamza Yusuf hasn't said what he said in those speeches were incorrect. He said they were bad timing. I was also at the ISNA convention this year where he mentioned what some british said about afghans "How can we defeat a people, who see paradise in the barrels of our guns". Lets see paradise in the barrels of their guns Hamza Yusuf said. Now for someone who said that, I would really like to examine more closely the other seemingly negative statements by them that we seem to be criticising here. If someone has said He is going to speak against the tyrant forces of the muslim world, whats wrong about it? Wont it be speaking against at least somewhat indirectly against people who are right now supporting these tyrant forces? If one of these leaders were to give a controversial remark right now, so that the establishment were going to come after muslims openly, believe me there would be muslims shooting for their heads. I dont believe these leaders are afraid of anyone for themselves.And I refuse to criticise them even though I am stressed on what I should be doing right now and at my helplessness. Yes, I know there are some leaders who are openly giving statements against Islam, and you dont need to be Einstein to understand that. I would rather want to see Hamza Yusuf exercising some influence here with the western leaders (and muslims), than one Dr. that came on Dr. Laura's show. Muslims here must understand their duty, irrespective of the difficulties that we are being faced with. Rasool (saw) did not hate Makkah because Makkan's were persecuting his brothers. I believe there has to be guidance for *all* situation a muslim is faced with in this world in our Quran and Sunnah. Quran and Sunnah are for all times and not frozen in history. But a person has to be understanding and discerning enough to be able to apply to his/her time/situation/place. So there are going to be times when people might even like you to address as Americans first and Muslims later (think of a an event in Rasool (saw)'s seerah that might be applicable here!). You cant be emotional about it and get all charged up, and say you no longer want to live in this country or what not. Think long term. And the most long term thinking should be a muslim. You have not been asked to do what is beyond you. But you are not going to be able to do what is within you if you keep sulking. Bring Allah's assurances to mind for a believer. My fear, right now is that this country is going to become another India, where muslims as a minority are really in a bad shape. There is close to zero Dawah. 120 million looks like a small no for us. 300 Sahabas basically conquered the world on the other hand. From my experience of what I have seen in India, there are going to be lot of people among muslims that are now going to come forward who will either be too afraid or have specific interests (other than advancement of Islam) on their agenda and these in turn are going to give rise to western non-muslim leaders who will say good things about american muslims and how peaceful they are and they are among the best muslims of the world etc. etc. and yet display such ignorance about Islam as was displayed by a politician who came to address some group of muslims once and said Akbar was a great emperor, and the best muslim ruler to have ruled India. No wonder muslims call out his name in Adhan 5 times everyday!!! Muslims in the west must not let this happen. Wassalam Eqbal

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
se7en
10/10/01 at 12:36:13
[color=black]O you who believe! Avoid suspicion as much as possible: for suspicion in some cases is a sin: and spy not on each other, nor speak ill of each other behind each others backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, you would abhor it...But fear Allah, for Allah is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful. [/color]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/10/01 at 14:12:34
[slm] I don't understand how that verse is relevant to this thread? I think we need to make a distinction here between public figures who are responsible to their followers and your average joe who no one knows about. I can just imagine where we would be today if the Muslims in the past didn't question their rulers and their scholars. The masses are asses theory is the oldest theory in political science and I disagree with it. First because that theory gives an excuse to the ruling class, leadership, etc. to say to the masses "we know what we are doing, we have degrees from colleges or madrasahs" and you just listen and follow orders. There is a thin line between respecting and following leadership intelligently and just doing whatever they say without giving any thought to it. If Muslims one day have a media of their own, what are they going to write/speak about? Who are they going to question? Who is going to be held responsible? And the Muslim journalists we have, do they back bite by writing what they write about the leadership? No, we are not journalists here and this is not a newspaper. But people should have the right to express their feelings respectfully without being told that they should keep their feelings and thoughts to themselves because they don't have a PhD from alazhar or yale. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
ahmer
10/10/01 at 14:48:41
slm yes i agree cuz the Muslim history is full of "brutal" criticsm of Muslim leaders who have gone berserk!! and it's absolutely necessary otherwise great Muslim scholars wouldn't be put in jails. so yes there is a need to critically examine our leaders, but shouldn't lead to slander and fitting a person in a "box" which we don't like. and also to maintain a balance so that it doesn't cause fitnah. wlm ahmer

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
BroHanif
10/10/01 at 18:10:15
[quote]yes i agree cuz the Muslim history is full of "brutal" criticsm of Muslim leaders who have gone berserk!! and it's absolutely necessary otherwise great Muslim scholars wouldn't be put in jails.[/quote] Ibn Taymiyah Imam Abu Hanifa Imam Malik Imam Bukahri If we all read the biography of these people only then will we understand how these scholars were put in jail, how they were mocked at and how much sabr(patience) they had and how deen was spread. [quote]so yes there is a need to critically examine our leaders, but shouldn't lead to slander and fitting a person in a "box" which we don't like. and also to maintain a balance so that it doesn't cause fitnah.[/quote] This is my thought, but JANNAH.ORG(Madina Board) is not the place to discuss these topics. I'm sure there are other correct ways to channel our thoughts.

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
BroHanif
10/10/01 at 18:20:09
[quote]No. The west is there in Muslim lands. It's not *the* west. At least over there they won't be listening in on my conversations on the phone. [/quote] You can do a phone tap now from any country. Regardless of where you are in the world. This technology has been around during the 80's. Another thing the FBI or CIA wouldn't need permission to listen in on your conversation becuase they do that right now. All electronic communications are more a less tapped. There are listening posts all over the world. So I don't think so you could really escape the evesdrop on communication. The only way to have communication is using snail mail. thats getting the pen and paper out. That way you'd immediatly know if somebody opened or tampered with your mail. Hanif

Re: 'If you hate the west( emigrate to a Muslim country'
Kashif
10/10/01 at 18:27:09
assalaamu alaikum Actually the British services have an ink they were showing off some months ago which allows them to see through the envelope and read the letter inside! Kashif Wa Salaam
NS

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Saleema
10/10/01 at 18:28:45
[slm] I grew up in Pakistan, I go back to visit. Tapping others phone lines in another country is not such an easy thing to do, it's not so black and white as you are painting it to be. I have never heard of the intelligence agency of pakistan bothering your average joe for any reason as you do here, even when there isn't any crisis. [wlm]

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
BroHanif
10/10/01 at 18:57:32
[quote]Actually the British services have an ink they were showing off some months ago which allows them to see through the envelope and read the letter inside![/quote] Well thats that then, lets send smoke signals, or messages in a bottle.! [quote]Tapping others phone lines in another country is not such an easy thing to do, it's not so black and white as you are painting it to be[/quote] No the average joe won't be able to do it. But when you compare the intelligence service(s) they work with the telecoms company, its termed as 'Working in the governments interest'. They have the technolgy to do it and its easy. It was so easy in the 80's and I know it can only get easier.

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Anonymous
10/11/01 at 13:50:14
Assalamalaikum I too have found sheikh Hamza's recent comments extremely disturbing however I haven't heard these statements from him directly so I am going to curtail my thoughts.   We all know that the media looks for soundbytes and there is a lot of selective editing going on.  We should just look at his past work - if anyone listens to the seerah and purification tapes he has done he chokes up and starts crying, literally, when he's talking about rasulAllah(saw).  Things like that give me re-assurance and after all he is a human being and prone to error.   We should all remember when the prophet(saw) was chased out of Taif, Allah(swt) sent the angel of wrath to crush Taif between two mountain if the prophet(saw)so wished. The beloved of Allah(swt) did not want vengence (as the West do) instead he prayed for mercy for the people of Taif and prayed for their descendants to become muslim - that is the example we have to take and that is what we have to adhere to.  That is the way to win hearts and minds. We forget that the american people are brainwashed, their media gives them a sanitised and american version of world events and history and we have to counteract this.  Even in the midst of all this brainwashing there are still non-muslims who can see the truth and work to make it heard and we too have to try harder get the message across.   I apologise if I waffled and I dont mean to criticise anyone, this is advice to myself as well as I too have been having a lot of wayward and despairing thoughts about everything and anything since sept 11. we shouldn't give in to these ploys of shaitan but we just stand firm and gain strengh. The west, Bush, Blair can do what they like but the truth is that Allah(swt) is the best planner and he is our protector. May Allah(swt) protect and guide us all.ameen. muslimah

Re: 'If you hate the west, emigrate to a Muslim country'
Ikani
10/12/01 at 10:47:14
Assalamu alaikum, And the West, especially the US, just got more trouble on their hands. Now there's talk about something like a global intifada in muslim countries against the US, its attacks on Afghanistan and its policies on the muslim world. Hey, there might be demonstrations, boycotts of US goods, some DJ making a mix from collections of statements/lies by 'world leaders' especially when they're contradictory as they affect Islam and muslims, an upsurge in piracy and copyright violations of US goods (some works distorted) with them also being purposely sold at ridiculously cheap prices (sometimes without profit), there's even an idea of bio-suicide bombers who infect themselves with deadly contagious diseases and walk around amidst the enemy. All I can say is God help us all. I hope the attacks on Afghanistan don't go on into the month of Rammadhan. Everyone should make du'a for the Afghans.
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