Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Is it possible ... ? |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/05/01 at 23:23:06 |
| [slm] What do you guys think about this: Is it possible to be a good American** and a good Muslim at the same time? Or is that an oxymoron? Why? Or why not? ** replace "Amerian" with "British" if you live in G.B., or "India" if you live in India, etc. |
| Re: Is it possible ... ? |
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| Anik |
| 11/06/01 at 00:35:46 |
| asalaamu alaikum, Br. Arsalan, I guess being a good citizen of [country] means being upstanding and contributive to the society. As well, it probably also entails being in favour of general morals, laws and policy (inlcuding foreign policy). Perhaps ethnocentricism and nationalism play a part; being "proud of your country" is a major part of allegeince, which in many cases expects you to put your country before your morals, and common human nature. At least on being American, I honestly think it's the hardest to be a "good American", just because anything you buy directly supports muslim oppression, if you vote, you put into power someone who supports muslim oppression, you believe in validity of the founding of the US and it's past actions, and it's self-appointed reponsiblity as world custodian. Being a good Briton is perhaps easier, but it's out of my category to know... Being a good Indian I think to a certain extent is possible but is tough for some of us if we disagree with the government or dislike the situations there... as long as you don't wish it bad and act against it... I think it is a fairly pluralistic society in some parts... I think the easiest thing to be is a good Canadian in terms of the West and a good muslim, since Canada is not an assimilative society; it gives much freedom to practice and is very tolerant. Canada is probably also the only country with great freedom and peace, and at the same time some moral standing (ie. some European countries like Netherlands allow haram things moreso than Canada despite freedom). Anyone agree/disagree? What do you think Br. Arsalan? asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
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| blissfull |
| 11/06/01 at 04:35:55 |
| slm i doubt there is any place even in islamic countries that do not have at the moment any unjust rulings. i think Saudi Arabia comes close for insuring its people walk the path of Islam. and there is only a minority Wahabbi style movement there, i really dont think it is the majority as we tend to think, i dont know ALLAH O ALIM. and may ALLAH forgive me for any ignorant remarks of any kind. Being in Dunyia and not being a part of it is a thin tightrope to walk on. however can we look at it in another way. We may have to live in particular countries and abide by its oppressive rules,but it will not change the state of our hearts. InshALLAH. being Muslims, we naturally come under the classification of being good citizens for Islam teaches us courtsy to ALLAH swt creation. the dilema at the moment may give us unnessary guilt which we should not harbour. we need to focus on contributing to our communites as much as we can. and educating ourselves for one Muslim in the right place at the right time with the right knowledge can make us progress. this may be a slower process but InshALLAH the tables will turn. |
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| Jenna |
| 11/06/01 at 04:59:54 |
| [wlm] I personally believe that there is no such thing as an "American Muslim". You are a Muslim and that is it. Subhan'Allah, I believe that we should create a Muslim country where Allahs Law rules the Muslims and where we are not under the thumb of a Kaffir government. It is our duty to establish a Muslim State again and Insha'Allah that will happen soon! Allah huma Ameen! Jenna (AMuslimWife@aol.com) |
| Re: Is it possible ... ? |
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| Kathy |
| 11/06/01 at 07:31:42 |
| slm Before I answer- what is your deffinition of a "good American?" |
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| blissfull |
| 11/06/01 at 08:08:56 |
| slm Sis Jenna and my other sisters and brothers i too was under the impression that there should be a proper Islamic state with a khalifa. i thougt what better way then to appoint a leader that will follow the rulings of Islam in its proper context and abide by shariah laws. however there have been controversies to this paticular thought. i am not equipped to understand the controversies fully. nor base any argument with true Hikmah as it should be addressed. what i have understood is that we are not to collect in one place. we are to spread Islam, this is the challenge,live in a system but not be of it and change the system of the whole world slowly. We should be allocated all over the world. Alhamdulilah, ALLAH SWT has made it easy for us. our goal is not to take over the world as the kuffar think it is the ultimate treasure; thus the constant battles of power. our goal is to live in the world that ALLAH swt has provided for us in a manner most befitting of a Muslim. that means to abide by HIS Laws and thus this will Naturaly change the kuffar system, if we ALL live in accordance to Islam. Granted we have been oppressed for a long time, this is also due to our own deeds and misguidance and ignorance, we must not loose hope. ALhamdulilah,we are one step closer, closer to what? to gaining control, no, ONE new Muslim is one step closer to the spread of Islam, one Muslim whos heart is clear sees the truth. we do not need to prove ourselves to anyone or carry any names for example good citizens, As true Muslims we are good Human beings. this initself allows us to continue the journey in the present moment and in every moment. no matter what the challenges we face. It is the Creator that takes care of us. May ALLAH swt guide us all on the true path. please correct any mistakes you feel i have made Wasalam |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/06/01 at 20:09:58 |
| [slm] [quote]Before I answer- what is your deffinition of a "good American?"[/quote]Don't get ahead of me Kathy :) I think that's a good question. How do you define a "good American?" Is the definition simply "a person who is a law-abiding citizen of the United States?" We know that Islam teaches us to be law abiding citizens of any place where we live. But does being a good American mean more than simply being a law-abiding citizen? I think we all agree that our loyalties, as Muslims, are to Islam first and *then* to anything else. And if our loyalty to something, anything, results in us being disloyal to Islam, then we cannot be loyal to that thing anymore. The question that arises now is, can someone who puts his/her #1 loyalty to anything except the US Constitution or the United States nation be considered a "good American?" On a different but related note, is it possible to be loyal to both *all the time*? What do YOU think? I'll save my thoughts till the end ... Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| mujaahid |
| 11/06/01 at 13:48:52 |
| Assalamu-alaikum Arsalan and Kathy. In response to "what is a good American", i gotta say this because i personally feel this is true. To be a good american you must ,love this world, love america, have no firm morals, and support america in whatever it does,and if you dont, then you are seen as an appeaser and unpatriotic. Being a good american means bowing to all the media and government propoganda and never questioning it. Simple as that. Being a good muslim, well we all know what that is. So in my opinion, you CANNOT be a good americana and be a good m,uslim at the same time. Why? They two are mutually exclusive, and you must either be one or the other. Americanisn contradicts islaam BIG time, so you cannot be a good yank, and be a good muslim. Its one or the other. In the UK however we aint as gullible as the US, also we are not required to be as gullible, however you still cannot be a good brit and a good muslim. You CAN howver be a good PERSON, and a good muslim. However in the US, being a good person includes things such as accepting homo's, having a pint here and there, accepting transexuals, tranvestites, lesbians etcetc |
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| Arsalan |
| 11/06/01 at 14:41:11 |
| [slm] Brother mujaahid, I would have really appreciated it if you had talked about this whole thing in the context of being a British rather than being an American! Because you don't live in the United States, you live in the United Kingdom. Having said that, I strongly disagree with these:[quote]To be a good american you must [...] have no firm morals [...] Being a good american means bowing to all the media and government propoganda and never questioning it.[/quote] |
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| Anik |
| 11/06/01 at 16:48:48 |
| asalaamu alaikum agreed Br. Arsalan... it's hard to make assumptions and with our bias of American mainstream, we often tend to think that a good American is of loose moral make-up. Not necessarily so I feel. And when people say it is impossible to be an american muslim, in idea yes, but in reality, no, because one definition is of residence, the other of religion. Then we would have to define" American" if anyone disagrees with this: you can be living there and totally "un-American" (in the popular sense) , and hate the country, or want change, or support them, or die for them, or be a criminal there, but if you live there as a resident, in our contexts you are an American no matter what you feel or do as long as you are a citizen there, thus American muslim, Canadian muslim, etc. defines Place then Belief. ex) Indian Jew It shouldn't be this way, but it is... the key is that muslims should let the duniya-obssessed people concentrate on the country part, and we will worry about the muslim part. Both are labels, only one is eternally relevant. Only one is a type of life. Good American I think, isn't just a law-abiding person.. that's a good citizen of ANY country defined for you Popularly, by most Americans, Good American supports popular American opinion, no if's ands or buts if i might go so far as to say. A Good American readily supports any actions the Us takes in her self-interest or world interest (read: self-interest). Then again, in other terms, more unpopular terms I believe, America is a hallmark for tolerance of expression of late (arguably), and in those terms, a Good American is one who upholds the typical colloquial values ( more like the face-values) of Americans (freedom, respect, tolerance, generousity, etc.) rather than politically blindly supporting it. So I think in those last terms, a good muslim is a good American as he/she tries to be tolerant and eliminate oppression and promote understanding Under God, by the direction of our true religion Islam. On the other hand of the definition of Good American, In the popular view of the "flag-waving" Good American, no, I don't think a muslim can be a Good American if he/she can't oppose America's actions. Countries shouldn't matter to a muslim anyways; while America will be left back here in the duniya to be destroyed, muslims will go to heaven Insha'Allah, so at the end of the day America is just a label on some land (somebody else's land, but we won't go there :)). asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: Is it possible ... ? |
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| kiwi25 |
| 11/06/01 at 18:07:10 |
| salam, hmm let me put it this way... your muslim before ANYTHING else, because its your IDENTITY. i am, alhamdulilah, a muslimah who wears hijab. so when i am talking to a non muslim and lets say we are talking about ethnicity and they ask me 'well what are you', even though i am wearing a hijab i say 'muslim', and they give me a weird look. then they say 'i mean where are you from' and thats when i tell em 'algeria'....;) i think the question you've asked arsalan has no one answer to it, because it is an opinion question. every one has there own beliefs of what is a good american, etc... one last question to you arsalan, why do your posts sometimes have this "y" with two dots over them/ just curious.... wasalam, nouha:) |
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| Marcie |
| 11/06/01 at 19:23:01 |
| As salamu alaykum [quote] To be a good american you must [...] have no firm morals [...] Being a good american means bowing to all the media and government propoganda and never questioning it.[/quote] Brother mujaahid I don't think that it is fair of you to generalize about all Americans. We don't like it when people generalize about us so why should we do it to others? I do agree with the second part though. As a social studies educator we are taught to teach kids critical thinking and higher order thinking skills, but I don't see that happening at all in the school that I'm at right now. As for Arsalan's question: you can't have your cake and eat it too. As salamu alaykum Marcie |
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| Nazia |
| 11/06/01 at 22:01:12 |
| [slm] I don't really understand the question. What does it mean to be an American, much less a good American. And what if you are "American" by default (ie-birth, parents, etc), does that mean you cannot be a good Muslim?? Do American converts, upon conversion have a duty to forget their "Americanism"? Br. mujahid, your statements were rather disturbing for a number of reasons. Not only were you making gross generalizations, but you were stating them with such conviction! I've lived in America for practically my entire life and I am not going to sit here and say that it is 100% evil! I am not going to hold it up to the same standards that I would a Muslim country, of course--it never asked to be held up to those standards. I am not going to say I like the way the government is run, I am definitely not going to support its foreign policy. But lets seperate the government from the people. At our masjid, the ladies who are there everyday, tirelessly volunteering to clean, teach, etc, are almost ALWAYS American converts. After the september 11th attacks, AMERICANS sent us cards, flowers, condolences, etc. Are these people not good Americans? I don't understand. Why is everything mutually exclusive? Why is it all or nothing? Who are we to define "good"? Isn't "good" relative? Isn't this all ultimately some vague abstract philosophical question that at some point will require the help of AbuKhaled? ;) *If* we must give our life to America, love its foreign policy, worship the flag, to be considered "good" Americans, then I have no doubt that any sane minded Muslim would readily agree that they are in fact, NOT good Americans. But why are we assuming thats the definition? Lets think about the ideal foundation on which America was based---It was, essentially, founded on the basis of tolerance. Keep in mind...this is the IDEAL, not necessarily the practical. Well, this idea of tolerance entails within itself the room for disagreement. So technically, the [i]defintion[/i] of America itself, indicates that just because you disagree with something does not make you a bad American. Right? So I would venture to say that if, we, as Muslims, obeyed the law, paid our taxes, but still protested against that which we disagree, we would be considered good Americans. Abortion is allowed in this country, are all those who oppose it bad Americans? Capital punishment is constitutionally allowed, are those who oppose it bad Americans? The governement has wrongfully put sanctions on a poor, helpless country in the Middle East--are the people who oppose that bad Americans? This country is carpet bombing one of the most war-torn and poor countries in the world--are we bad Americans to oppose that? I don't know. I think its ridiculous that people sit in this country, absorb its luxuries, and then do nothing but complain and proclaim it to be the devil's spawn. Don't forget that behind the horrid foreign policy, and the sketchy shady government administration there are a bunch of everyday, average people, students, teachers, engineers, poets, writers, bums, who are, for the vast majority, nice people. Why must me we think on such a simplistic level? Why do we sucumb to making vast generalizations to prove our points? I'd like to leave this country one day, but I still thank Allah everyday for giving me the beautiful life that He has, even if it is in a non-Muslim country. We should never be unthankful, and if we are living in a non-Muslim country--instead of telling fellow Muslims that they're going to hell for living here, we should spend our time spreading dawah, making a positive and visible presence in a predominantly non-Muslim world. So yeah basically--I don't understand the question :) Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia |
| Re: Is it possible ... ? |
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| amal |
| 11/07/01 at 13:12:15 |
| Slm, Very interesting discussion I must say. Nazia and blissfull, well said. I think the answer to this question is partly answered by Allah(swt) Himself in one of my favourite surahs: Surah Yusuf. Prophet Yusuf, peace be upon him, underwent many injustices at the hand of his own brothers and that of the Egyptian rulers, and yet he emerges triumphant in the end because of his good character and is eventually given a position in the government which he uses to benefit the people of Egypt and his own people (the Israelites). What do you think Allah(swt) is telling us through this story?? We do know that these rulers were kuffars and yet a prophet chooses to be part of the ruling class to change the status quo through his good deeds. I find it interesting that Allah(swt) chooses to concentrate in this story on the affect that one individual can have through sheer good will,moral excellence, and above all true belief in Allah and his tawfiq. This is an excerpt from the introduction of the surah by Maududi: [quote] Moreover, the story contains other lessons for those who intend to follow the way of Allah. The first lesson it teaches is that one should remain within the limits, prescribed by the Divine Law, in one's aims and objects and measures, for success and failure are entirely in the hands of Allah. Therefore if one adopts pure aims and lawful measures but fails, at least one will escape ignominy and disgrace. On the other hand, the one who adopts an impure aim and unlawful measures to achieve it, shall not only inevitably meet with ignominy and disgrace in the Hereafter, but also runs the risk of ignominy and disgrace in this world. The second lesson it teaches is that those who exert for the cause of truth and righteousness and put their trust in Allah and entrust all their affairs to Him, get consolation and comfort from Him, for this helps them face their opponents with confidence and courage and they do not lose heart, when they encounter the apparently terrifying measures of the powerful enemies. They will persevere in their task without fear and leave the results to Allah. [color=red]But the greatest lesson this story teaches is that if the Believer possesses true Islamic character and is endowed with wisdom, he can conquer a whole country with the strength of his character alone. The marvelous example of Prophet Joseph teaches us that a man of high and pure character comes out successful even under the most adverse circumstances. When Prophet Joseph went to Egypt, he was only a lad of seventeen years, a foreigner, all alone and without any provisions; nay, he had been sold there as a slave. And the horrible condition of the slaves during that period is known to every student of history. Then he was charged with a heinous moral Crime and sent to prison for an indefinite term. But throughout this period of affliction, he evinced the highest moral qualities which raised him to the highest rank in the country[/color] [/quote] So back to whether being a good American and good muslim are compatible or not, I think everyone agrees that it depends what definition one gives to these identities.What does it mean to be a good American and what does it mean to be a good muslim? We know what is meant to be a good muslim because Allah(swt) told us in the Qur’an and through his messenger the definition of a muslim. We also know that we don’t judge islam by how muslims are conducting themselves in the world.Indeed we always defend islam by saying that true muslims are those who follow the Qur’an and sunnah of the prophet and if a muslim behaves in a bad manner that’s in spite of Islam not because of it. The same applies to the meaning of being a good American. America has a constitution and was founded on certain principles. Therefore, a good American is one who upholds those principals. Supposedly, one of those principles is the right to dissent. To oppose any law that a citizen feels is unjust through any legitimate means available: that includes speaking about it, educating the general public about it, engaging oneself in the political arena, etc.. The great thing about man-made laws and policies is that they can always be changed. So why not the muslims be the ones to do it?? Of course, nothing of any worth comes easily or in a blink of an eye. But that’s the strife that each one of us was destined to go through. That’s the reason we’re here in the first place: to be God’s vicegerents on earth. Right?? Like Nazia said, it’s become second nature for some people to criticize everything without lifting one finger. The way I see it muslims have two choices: Either leave the US and go to a muslim country and join the 1 billion helpless and apathetic muslims who can’t do anything about their situation because the government will annihilate anyone who dares to speak up, or they can stay where they are and work with the means God has given them to change the situation. Lastly, I think it’d be good if each of us got a good history book and learned from the lessons of the people who went before us. Look at the history of the black Americans in this country, where they were a century ago and where they are now and they still have a long way to go. Believe it or not, at one point in time, Jews were despised in this country just like the black Americans were, look at their position now. Muslims in this country have to stop thinking of themselves as guests in their own houses. This is your country and before anything else it’s Allah’s land. No one has a right to it more than anybody else. One thing i do know is that silence is a sign of acceptance.So do whatever you want to do but do something *productive*. Wallahu A'lam (And Allah knows best) |
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