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Some random thoughts ...
haaris
11/14/01 at 08:27:58
slm This is just a series of thoughts buzzing round my head at the moment. I would like to discuss this subject with people nearer to me (e.g. my in-laws) but it has the potential to upset people if I try to discuss things with a set of half-baked notions.  So forgive me brothers and sisters but I'm using you to help me give more substance to my initial thoughts. I'm not trying to be controversial, just to understand an issue that seems (to me at least) to be quite relevant at the moment. My thoughts are on Pakistan, the country. 1. As I understand it, Pakistan was created to give a homeland to the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent.  Is this correct?  If so, is it any different in concept to Israel (i.e. to give a homeland to a people whose identity is based on religion)?  [color=red]Please note that I am not suggesting any comparrison between the appaling tactics of the "State" of Israel and any actions of Pakistan.[/color]  I am only looking at the basic, underlying notion that lead to the establishment of the state of Pakistan. 2. Why was it necessary to separate out some of the Muslims in the sub-continent?  Why only some of them?  What would have happened if India had been left 'as was', with "Muslim majority" areas flanking its east and west? 3. If I am correct about the "raison d'etre" of Pakistan, what has it acheived?  It seems to me that Pakistan is not run according to Islamic laws (where is?), in which case it is now just like any other country or, indeed, areas within this country (UK)? 4. It is all very well to blame "the rulers" for the state of Muslim nations but almost every Pakistani in this country that I speak to bewails the "state of corruption" in Pakistan.  This can't be totally the fault of the rulers, surely Pakistani society as a whole (and, in particular, the upper/middle classes) must take the blame for this?  So, what can be done about it all? Now, I know that it might seem as though I am "knocking" Pakistan here.  Please believe me, I am not.  As I said, this is largely giving "voice" to some half baked notions that abound in my head and Pakistan is perhaps the subject of my thoughts at the moment because my wife's family is from Pakistan and because of current events. Oh yeah, and don't think for a moment that I consider that these issues are only relevant to Pakistan: some of them are relevant to all Muslim countries and some even to non-Muslim countries.  I think that Pakistan has a unique position though, having (if I'm correct) been created as a homeland for Muslims. I'd appreciate any comments.  Even if they are of the "Haaris bro, learn your history properly, read ..." kind. Jazaka Allah Khairun.

Re: Some random thoughts ...
BrKhalid
11/13/01 at 11:27:44
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]As I understand it, Pakistan was created to give a homeland to the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent.  Is this correct?[/quote] In addition to the above question, could someone clarify whether Pakistan has a clause in its constitution which states it should be run according to Shariah? Is this true? Has it been revoked or is it still valid?

Re: Some random thoughts ...
mujaahid
11/13/01 at 13:19:20
Assalaamu-alaikum Well i have made my feelings on Pakistan clear in the past, so i dont need to  build on them, i think Harris pointed out EXACTKY why i feel the way i do. Also about Musharraf, IN YA FACE!!! LOL!!! I Read something just now which made me laugh. Apparently Pakistan placed an order for 28 fighter planes from the US. Pakistan paid for these, and they have been made. Now that Musharraf asked for the planes, Bsh and the Americans stuck two fingers up at him (in the diplomatic sense) and said forget it Mister! You aint getting no planes! LOL!!! And Musharraf was like "oo oo but but terrorists will be able to do as they please o oo please bush dont be nastey to me". Well Musharraf, what a slap in the face that was eh! You sucked upto them, bowed down to them, done as they commanded you, and now, when you want a favour, even one you pay for, they tell you to get lost. Wonderful. Well done USA. Now Musharraf, do you still feel "special"? Anyway Harris back to your point, Yes i take it Pakistan WAS created for Islaam, and for the muslims. But that was the mentality 50 years ago. Today it seems most pakistani's have totally forgotton about why Pakistan was created, and instead throw islaam out the window and have adopted a liberal, modern way of life, to the point where you now have pakistani pop bands with women in them who wear mini skirts (yes i have seen this with my own eyes, dont know the bands name), you have pop stars coming and having pop concerts in froms of tens of thousands of "muslims" etc etc. Well i could go on, but its gona angre a few people, so i think its better the Pakistani's on this board discuss this issue amongst themselves.

Re: Some random thoughts ...
momineqbal
11/13/01 at 22:51:47
[slm], Brother Rashid I think you should do some research on all this before letting any half baked notions bake in your head. Its never good to have half baked notion (maybe that is why you raised this, I guess :) ). From your post it seems you have not really had any opportunity to study Indian/Pakistani history , maybe I am wrong. You can not compare Pakistan with Israel for a simple reason that Pakistan was not taken away from original inhabitants by some foreigners. It was just a simple case of division of an existing country among its inhabitants. It is another matter to examine the merit of this division and subsequent path that was followed by Pakistan. Maybe some Pakistani brothers can help with historical analysis. Wassalam

Re: Some random thoughts ...
bhaloo
11/13/01 at 23:30:09
slm Brother Eqbal is absolutely right.  I have to check the exact statistics, but when the Palestinians were kicked out of their homes and their land stolen from them, there was a very small number of jews there percentage wise.

Re: Some random thoughts ...
Anik
11/13/01 at 23:38:46
asalaamu alaikum, Br. Haaris, it really depends which viewpoint you see it from... where I agree with Br. Mujahid that these topics can be uncomfortable, and that it can be internally discussed, a balance of viewpoints often helps you formulate your own opinion rather than accept someone elses.  As well, Pakistani and Indian persepctive viewpoints (and the divisions amongst them as well) should be looked at for a good understanding if you want to jump into a conversation about it. ideally from a Muslim League standpoint, Pakistan WAS created to give muslims a homeland in Islam, and from another point of view, it could have been created as well to appease certain political movements at the time (although some muslims did and still do oppose the idea of its inception).    Some see it that the British could weaken the Sub-continents position and particularly the new power of India by dividing it (not once but twice), and thus it was created (East and West).  It may be important to note that Kashmir (although we might as well stay off that topic) is also seen often as a "divide and conquer" tool... in urdu some say "dtho kutho kay beech may hud-dee pehk diya" "They threw a bone in between two dogs" (not that they are dogs or anything) The British, some feel, were using their tactics to weaken the entire population by using their tactics successfully even upon leaving the place (divide and conquer)... of course, most religious rioting had begun and was allegedly incited by the British during the late raj period, in fact, my grandparents, living in Lucknow at the time of Independance, remember days before when muslims and hindus lived quite peacefully, with religious difference being a private matter, both brother of the other you could say.  They also tell me of the sudden change brought about by the British enciting and stoking fires of political division where neighbours became enemies overnight. I have heard opinions that the British would hire Indians to hang beef in a mandir and hang pork in the masjids to incite hatred and religious difference.  They tell me how trains of boxcars full of slaughtered bodies crossed from both sides of the border.  Atrocities were committed by both sides. It's important to note here that the two religions weren't separating from each other, but rather one from the other (perhaps this was the most peaceful way). One view might be that Pakistan (East or West) wasn't created as a sole homeland for muslims in the area, because many muslims chose to stay in India, but rather as a fairness to offer choice to the citizen;  after all, India remained with both hindu and muslim populations. With this fact, the vision of Mahatma Gandhi failed by failing to establish a unified India, tolerant and secular.  Some people still argue whether it's creation actually helped people or hurt them.   Was it similar to Israel? Perhaps because it was a intended for muslims by muslims as a exclusively Islamic environment from the rest of India.  But was it created due to persecution of the muslims? I would say not necessarily, and some may say it was to give muslims the advantage of actually deciding the politics of their own country and to make decisions as a majority. Some believe that muslims shouldn't have had to leave their birthland to have an Islamic rule, but rather that it should have occurred where they were in all of India. What if Pakistan wasn't created? Perhaps the havoc that lasted only a short time in the separation of the country would have continued till it naturally happened (although I doubt it honestly).. but unrest would be there definitley.  Perhaps many innocents from both sides who were caught on the "Wrong side" would've had a chance to live.  Maybe many homes wouldn't have been deserted.  Maybe India should have been given a chance to be unified and independant, of cours esince it was partitioned immediately we'll never know whethe rit could've survived either secularly or ecumenistically.  The partition may have done more to increase hindu-muslim tension because it increased definition in partisan theological opinion rather than to appease it and separate the two religious sides.  But hey, bunches of people make mistakes from time to time, no matter the faith (in terms of the mutual committing of atrocities). Again these are all opinions, not mine, but many I've heard and gathered.  May true Islamic rule come to Pakistan IA, and then as an example let's hope true Islamic rule can spread to India as well, IA. I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone here, as I express the different viewpoints as various opinions and not necessarily my own. Try to get more viewpoints as i sometimes give the unfavourable ones to present a balanced insight.  If someone thinks I've been biased in MY OWN opinions, kindly tell me. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Some random thoughts ...
haaris
11/14/01 at 08:38:36
[slm] Thank you all for your responses.  Brother Eqbal, yes I am sure you are right: I am ignorant of the history of all this.  And yes, that is why I posted my thoughts here. I am well aware that I don't know the full story.  But what I'm looking for here is a steer in the right direction rather than mere refutation. I accept that the numbers of displaced people in the formation of Pakistan is not in the same league as that involved in Israel (hey, not even the same sport!) and I am sorry if I (inadvertently) caused ire by suggesting as such.  Does anyone have figures of the people displaced (in both directions) by Partition? My wife's family was originally from (what is now) the Indian side of the Punjab region.  I have heard stories of vast amounts of possessions abandoned in the haste to make it across the new border.  Possessions that had immense sentimental value now irrecoverably lost. I know that my thoughts are scattered and my questions vague.  This is semi-deliberate.  I don't want to ask closed questions because that will elicit a limited response.  Ideally I would like a discussion.  Perhaps it's unfair of me to expect you all to do my thinking and discussing for me but, hey, don't ask, don't get. [wlm]
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