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The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
gift
11/21/01 at 04:57:09
[slm] here's an interesting article i read - might be useful to anyone especially with the questions we've had on the board over the last few weeks.  also if any of you have young daughters this may be useful (??? i'm not sure 'cause i'm not a parent) i've also posted it in the 'jannaration oasis' The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak Many unmarried people these days search for "love" in a series of premarital relationships, which far from yielding happiness, lead to nothing but spiritual degeneration, loss of self-respect, heartache and misery. When the average girl reaches the age of ten or eleven, she - sometimes with the knowledge of her parents, sometimes without their knowledge - becomes engrossed in and obsessed with the teen romance novel: a blonde, blue-eyed girl, with a perfect size 10 figure, falls in love with the football hero of the school, a few complications on the way (nothing major, of course), but things end happily after. In these novels, girl and boy might hold hands, or there might even be a kiss, thrown in somewhere along the line. By the time the impressionable reader of these novels reaches her late teens, she is sick of these story lines...and is searching for more. And is most cases, "more" is usually available right there in her home, tucked away at the bottom of her mother's cupboard, in the form of adult romance novels. The holding hands, and the kissing has now made way for much more, as details of pre-marital passion, and the fulfilment thereof are graphically spelt out on these pages. The reader is told what the "perfect body" is supposed to look like, the notion that sexual intercourse before marriage is sweet and romantic seeps through these pages...the feelings of degradation, and the many possible consequences thereof are conveniently left out. A fairy tale is a fairy tale, we tell ourselves, a book is a book...they have no implications on real life. Surely our daughters understand and accept this... But we are deluding ourselves. These same "harmless" fairytales and books, have a detrimental effect on the thinking, lifestyles and attitudes of our children. The first "crush"/infatuation our daughters experience in relation to members of the opposite sex, is often linked to false perceptions about "dating," perceptions to which a wide variety of factors contribute. And one of the main factors painting a sugar and candy image of pre- marital romances, are these shallow bits of reading material that our daughters are exposed to. It is no strange co-incidence that girls grow up believing that a boyfriend is the key to happiness...after all they have barely started walking, when the stories of the poor ill-treated Cinderella, saved only by a dashing prince, and the beautiful Snow White woken up by a prince, and the doomed Rapunzel, saved from the tower by...who else - a dashing hero, are told to them. And when they read romance novels, this theory is further reinforced - for, in the classic teen romance novel, the girl without a boyfriend, or "sweet sixteen and never been kissed" is the poor, laughing stock, who doesn't have a date to the "prom." And on the pages of a typical adult romance novel, the heroine is always a successful, beautiful career woman, but, she feels, that "something" is lacking in her life...and that "something" is naturally a man. It is improbable that the average teenager, would just read these books, and that there would be no impact on her mind. It is usually exactly the opposite: she wishes she was the person on the pages of the book, and transfers her fantasies to her real life. She might see someone at school, who is popular, and good-looking [i.e. the football hero], and so begins her first painful crush, which is accompanied of course, by sending him anonymous `Valentine's Day' cards, or calling him and playing songs over the phone. Shaitaan has set his trap, and the temptation to sin heightens, and each time the temptation is given in to, the girl becomes more daring. By the time the boy "asks her out," her nafs has gotten the better of her, and her head filled with the notions of how sweet holding hands before that first kiss must be, she cannot resist. And so begins a "relationship." But this has all the ingredients that a classic romance novel does not....for those candy-coated pages do not tell you about the heartbreak, the tears, the mood swings and the countless negative aspects that are the central to these relationships And they do not tell you about the degradation and the loss of self- respect, with which people, especially women, emerge, after these relationships. For there is no peace, no tranquillity in such relationships. The daily cycle, the moods, everything about the individual is affected. There is a certain sort of darkness, a restlessness which fills the heart, and this restlessness affects the rest of the family too. For it is now that all the arguments with the parents start: "Why can't I go out tonight? All my friends are going?" And there are the mood swings, the fluctuating eating habits...if the phone doesn't ring, then it's a case of "I don't feel like eating." And then there is dishonesty...unable to tell her parents where she really wants to go, she makes the excuse of having to go to the library to study for tomorrow's test. The ending of each relationship is most often marked by a long periods of torture, in which the girl has to "get over" the boy. Everyday life becomes a misery...her marks drop, daily moods start to depend on the current state of her relationship with the boy and many girls, totally misled by Shaitaan, even make dua for a "reconciliation." During this period the girl is ravaged by guilt, because deep down in her heart, she is aware that what she has done is haraam, and she also feels guilty about lying to her parents. If there was a physical aspect to her relationship, then these feelings of guilt are deeply accentuated and coupled with a total loss of self-respect. In the worst possible scenario, which is frequently happening, the girl, in an effort to improve her "self image," may turn to various other ways...smoking, clubbing, drinking and drugs...or she may embark on a series of flings just to make herself feel "special" again. In short the "relationships" so sweetly portrayed in romance novels, which speak only of chocolates, flowers and happiness, end right there: on the pages of the novel. In real life, such relationships lead to nothing but unhappiness and heartache. For how can there be any real happiness in a "love" inspired by Shaitaan? This type of "love" far from being pure and sacred falls into the category of fornication. And regarding fornication, Allah Ta'ala says in the Holy Qur'aan: "The woman and man guilty of adultery of fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment." [Surah An-Nur: 2] How can there be any long term happiness in a sin for which the punishment prescribed is so severe? But while keeping in mind the above injunction, we should also not despair of the Mercy of Allah Ta'ala...for we cannot even comprehend the vastness of this Mercy. We need to realise and to tell ourselves that there is only temporary satisfaction of the nafs in a pre-marital relationship. And we need to terminate any such relationship which we might be involved in, and sincerely make taubah to Allah. As difficult as it might be to end such relationships, once we realise and acknowledge to ourselves that the novels to which we are exposed to from such an early age are totally based on a kuffaar way of life, which appears to be very appealing from the outside, but which bears no contentment, no real happiness, it will in sha Allah, be easy to do so. In addition to painting a rosy picture of dating, these books also create a very wrong concept of what the ideal partner should be like. It is obvious that since they are kuffaar publications, there is no stress on piety, good akhlaaq, honesty and all the other qualities people should be searching for in a potential marriage partner. Instead these books promote superficial thinking, with all their emphasis on "good looks," "size 10 figures," "star football players," "smart cars,"etc. Parents should closely monitor the reading material which their children bring home and should teach their children about the beauty of nikaah. We should realise, that while it is natural to be embarrassed to discuss such aspects of Islam with them, it is infinitely better for them, that we impart the correct knowledge of an Islamic way of life to them, than allow them to acquire the totally wrong concept of "love" from books, television, movies, and their friends and environment. It should be explained to each teenager that the pre-marital relationships, the engagements, etc to which we attach such a great deal of importance in this world have nothing but a negative bearing on our lives in the aakhirah. It should be time and time again instilled into their minds that pre- marital relationships are a sin...nikaah is an ibaadah. Allah Ta'ala has Created men and women with natural desires, and He has Created nikaah as an institution in which these desires maybe fulfilled. A nikaah in which both, husband and wife are striving to fulfill their obligations to Allah Ta'ala, such a nikaah will be filled with the mutual respect, love and inevitably, the contentment, which we hopelessly search for in pre-marital relationships. Within the sacred context of a nikaah, in which both parties are obedient to Allah Ta'ala, and adhere to His Commandments, there can be no room for the loss of respect, feelings of degradation, etc. which goes hand-in-hand with "going out" with or "dating" someone. We should always bear in mind that should we die in the company of a "boyfriend" or a "girlfriend" or even a "fiancé," we will be leaving this world, having spent our last few moments of this life in the company of a non-Mahram. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Mystic
11/21/01 at 11:04:50
[slm] Wow!!!!!! This was a beautifully written essay... Thanks for sharing Ukhty :-) [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
gift
11/22/01 at 04:01:46
[slm] i think it was from abuzubair.com - gotta check :-)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
princess
11/22/01 at 15:29:07
walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;-D i think this was also posted a long time ago by bhaloo..if i'm not mistaken..i personally think that a lot of these things r cuz of lack of knowledge :(

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/24/01 at 01:56:40
I dont believe its a lack of knowledge. Thats just an excuse. SO many "practising muslims date etc, yet many none practising muslims dont date. Basically it all comes down to this. Those who date are nothing more than slappers and tarts, full stop, End of story, kapeesh, Astala Vista. When these fools get married do they grow out of it? No, they go and comit adultery. Look at those fools who commit adultrey, look at thier behaviour before they were married, and i will GUARANTEE that 99% of Muslim adulterers used to date before they married. I personally do not by this rubbish about people changing. Its one thing wanting to marry someone, ie. someone you met at school or college without "going out", but just got on well with the person, however dating, etc is a different ball game. And those that get involved are showing a deep nature of thier characters, a major flaw, or loosness and cheapness. In my opinion, a sister who dated before she married should NEVER EVER be considered for marriage by a practising decent bro, and vice versa with a Good sister and a dodgy bro, because those that date have cheapened themselves. I personally would NEVER marry a muslim who used to have boyfriends, i dont care how "religious" she has now become, i dont care if she wears the hijab, and prays five times a day now, because her past shows part of her character, one i want NOTHING to do with. However if i did get trapped, and tricked, and married a women i thought was pure and untouched, and later, after marriage found out she had boyfriends in the past, then i would divorce her. The only instance i would forgive or ignore a persons past is that of a convert. Before they converted, they were kaafirs, hence they would have done what kaafirs do, one of the things being dating, but because they converted to islaam, thier past is IMMEDIATLY forgiven and so i have no reason to hold it against them. But muslims who date? Sorry, but they can go and find a cheap husband or wife for their cheap selves. Mods please do not delete or modify this message, i have a right to express my true feelings on such a major issue.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
abc
11/23/01 at 14:08:28
La hawla wa la quwata illa billah! Brother, just *what* are you trying to say? I just have one question for you: have you never committed a sin? And if you think you reserve the right to say anything you want here then maybe you should read the constitution again: [i]It is important to understand that this board is not Islam, it is not the last word, it is not the khilafah, nor is it the free Islamic press. It is just a message board with rules and principles guiding it's progress and interaction. Therefore you are not allowed to say whatever you want even if it is or you believe it to be 'correct' Islamically. [/i] Wassalamu alaikum

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
M.F.
11/24/01 at 13:36:09
So harsh!!!I can't understand human beings who are above forgiveness when Allah forgives all sins except shirk.  It's like the throwing the first stone story.  Who among is is so sinless that he or she can consider themselves unable to forgive another person for his sins??? A'uzhu billah!   Ok it may be that you personally don't ever want to marry someone who's dated before, but please don't put them all in a category of people who should never be married!!!!  what about men who have dated should they never get married either? has it occured to you that people actually change and repent??? And that it's accepted by Allah?  that's what Allah called Tawba and He highly encouraged it.  Yes, even Muslims can have ALL their sins forgiven just like converts to Islam if they ask Allah sincerely.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Mystic
11/23/01 at 14:53:59
[slm] that makes a lot of sense. shukran for the sound advice....above the din of harshness:):):):) Coolness:) M. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/23/01 at 14:59:41
MF How dare you make such an accusation towards me about being hurt. I stand by what i said. If people dont like it, then i make no apologies whatsoever. I do not feel i broke any of the rules of the Medina constitution in saying what i did. Those are my true feelings, and i stand by them. A sin is a sin, no. A sin is not a sin. Different people commit different sins. If you belive all sins, barr shirk are the same,. then lets see how "prepared" you would be to marry someone who has dated for years and years, even though now they have become "religious" I somehow doubt that many bro's would be prepared to marry a sis who they know was involved with men. In fact i know the reason many go to india, pakistan etc is because they know most of the women in the west have been touched by other guys and most guys dont want nothing to do with such a woman. However for some reason the sisters dont feel the same. They are more prepared to forgive a bro with a dodgy past. Why? I dont know. NBut put it this way, i would NEVER allow my sister to marry a bro with a dodgy past, i dont care how long he now keeps his beard of rolls up his trousers, my sister would NEVER be allowed to marry someone with a bad past. And please dont say "If Allah can forgive, why can't you" because i am not Allah. I can forgive a person who massacred another mans entire family, yet i doubt very much the man who lost his family would be able to forgive the killer. Different people commit different sins. I killer may kill agian, and theif may steal again, a rapist may rape again, just liek a loose person might fornicate, they will probably do it again. Dont believe me? Just take a look at ALL the cases of adultry amonsgt muslim marriages. You will find that 100% of the time, those that commit adultrey used to date before marrying. Therefore with that said, how many people really wanna risk their future by marrying someone with a bad past? Think hard and carefully. I have seen all too often, live fall apart, families broken, kids lives ruinewd because thier parents commit adultry, the same parents who used to date when younger. If that is a risk your prepared to take, them i pity you. All those that dont wanna take such risks, marry sisters who have a good past, a known past, or go abroad and marry decent sisters from india, paskiatn or bangladesh or wheveer. MF i am not at all happy with what you said in the opening of your post. You made a public accusation.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Hajreee
11/26/01 at 10:07:33
Salams... InshaAllah all is well with you all... okee, i didn't want to repsond to this post... but i just wanted to raise some points for you guys to think about... Br.mujaahid- the sister was not accusing you, she said it 'sounded' like you had a hurtful problem about this or whatever, i forget the words! but she said 'sounded'...if she was accusing you, she would have said "you're only being this harsh because you did have a hurtful past or blah blah"...see you know what the problem is with people these days? they take everything out of proportion and forget the simplicity of Islam! whatever happened to giving your brother or sister 70 excuses? don't take things out of hand bro :) it's all about the intentions... the nee'aa makes all the difference! You talk about her accusing you, but you have just accused her of accusing you...see it just goes around and around in circles :( *btw, i'm not saying this harshly* second- about the whole thing about not marrying someone who never dated before... i don't know if that's really fair.. because Allah guides who He wants... maybe before He didn't guide a person- and that person dated and did all that horrible stuff... but then later on..the person was guided or actually saw the "light down the tunnel" or maybe had an "eyeopener"!! you never know what had happened.. i just don't think it's fair because everyone makes mistakes.. yes maybe they made themselves cheap by doing what they did, but you just can't use that as an excuse...i used to be like you, i used to say" i would never marry a guy who dated or went clubbing or did this or that" but in the end- it all comes down to their iman and their faith and how they are presently...you're going to reject a good muslimah because of her past?? People change! you know i knew this brother who wasn't really religious... and then over the years, mashaAllah, he turned sooooo religious and turned around like a complete 360 degrees! mashaAllah, he has this really long beard, he's a hafiz (i think, hehe) and he's becoming an alim or sheikh, i don't really know... but the whole point is.. he turned a complete 360 degrees and mashaAllah mashaAllah mashaAllah! *and yes,the beard doesn't indicate if a person is religious or not, but i was just adding that detail in! :) * there are soo many ayat in the Quran that talk about how Allah will forgive those who repent and then do aright! If Allah forgives them, i don't see why you can't...or will not! i just don't get it...we make excuses as to why to reject someone good? i just don't get it.... those were my two cents... oh and one other thing- girls back home in Pakistan and India and whereever else aren't that good either Bro.mujaahid.. if you 0nly knew how they are, i'm not talking about every single girl, of course you have the good and the bad, but you can't escape what's happening now!   well take care everyone! Wa Salaams :) and Happy Fasting! hehehehhe

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Hajreee
11/23/01 at 16:10:07
Just some points of clarification... i just read my thingy again.. 1) my tone was NOT in a rude way!! 2) i wasn't showing anyone's faults or chewing up on anyone's ideas and opinions 3) i wasn't taking any sides on the subject matter 4) i was just showing what's on the other side of the fence 5) my ne'aa (intentions) were pure and i surely 100% didn't mean to offend anyone or go against the consitition... if i have, i'm sorry!! *May Allah guide us all, ameen*

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Saleema
11/23/01 at 18:45:25
[slm] Just a reminder--insults and such things will not be tolerated, if this convsersation disintegrates to a fight I will lock the thread. So think twice about what you say before you post it. [wlm] Moderator

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Kashif
11/23/01 at 23:43:35
assalaamu alaikum Just want to point out that the below is completely baseless: <<Just take a look at ALL the cases of adultery amonsgt muslim marriages. You will find that 100% of the time, those that commit adultrey used to date before marrying>> Where did you get that from? I personally know cases where this is NOT true. How many Muslim marriages do you know of where adultery was the cause of separation and one of the partners used to date before? 5? 10? 50? Even if it were 100 how much is that as a percentage of all Muslim divorces occurring due to adultery being committed? Super-exaggerations like: <<Those who date are nothing more than slappers and tarts, full stop, End of story, kapeesh, Astala Vista.>> make me think that you don't have much interaction with kuffaar/non-practising Muslims. You seem to make assumptions about the whole of the Muslim ummah based on the mini-universe you're living in. As soon as you open your eyes and see the world for how it is and real people for who they are, you'll be surprised. There are thousands of people out there who date/commit other sins who aren't "slappers" or "tarts"... they're committing sins.. thats it. A person might commit a major sin yet might not be evil inside, although you seem to believe the opposite. A Muslim might commit a sin due to a momentary lapse yet have the potential - and indeed becomes a much better person afterwards. Kashif Wa Salaam PS for what its worth, i also think you can cut the drama regarding MFs comment.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Saleema
11/24/01 at 01:44:11
[slm] Mujaahid--at least try living up to your name. I am disgusted by what you wrote. What kind of a world do you live in? Who are you to look down on someone who has repented and has stopped sinning? In your first post in this thread you wrote that you would never marry someone who had dated and wouldn't care how "religous" she had become afterwards. Fine, but don't question peoples religous commitment because someone like that might be a lot better than you and me in Allah's eyes. MF i am not at all happy with what you said in the opening of your post. You made a public accusation. Calm down, it's not the end of the world. I read MF's post and I do not see any accusations. But...if you define them as such then here's what you wrote about her which she did not say so herself, so I don't know where you got that from: If that is a risk your prepared to take, them i pity you. Pity? You need to read up on forgiveness in Islam and Allah's Mercy. What Allah has deemed good for you then, you can't call it bad. A brother or sister in Islam who has repented from his/her sins is halal for any brother/sister who has not committed such sins before. If it's your personal choice--fine, but chose your words wisely. Just today a friend reminded me of a Hadith where the Prophet (SAW) said that If we can control what is between our two jaws--then we will be safe from fitna. (or something like that). Meaning--if we control our tongue. Have a blessed Ramadan and may Allah forgive you and me and all the Muslims our terrible and abundant sins. Ameen. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Anonymous
11/24/01 at 02:02:13
assalam alaiykoum It's very hard to find a perfect mate. Maybe you will find one who has never dated. They will likely have other flaws. And just because you have concluded that all people who cheat on their spouses used to date, that doesn't mean that all people who once dated will cheat on their spouses. If you want to make those kinds of arguments, you can get all kinds of conclusions like -- All mass murderers eat bread! Thus bread-eating makes a person murderous. Some people change. Sometimes it takes doing something wrong, to feel the sting of sin, in order to return to the right path. Some people repent. ****** And it is wrong to ask someone to reveal their sins to you. If someone did something in the past, that person should keep it to themselves and ask Allah for forgiveness. ***** The reason women will accept men who have dated and who are not virgins, and usually assume that the men they marry have done those things, is because women are given the impression that if they hold out for the man who has never done any of those things, they will never get married. Most women don't really have the impression that all men are very strong in this regard; women have seen many men who lack shame and lack restraint. Whether you marry a virgin who has never even had a sexual thought, a woman who has been raped, a woman who dated, a woman you assume has dated, a divorced woman, a widow, or someone with an unknown past (and the same for men if you are a woman), I can't imagine that it would do much for your mental health to sit around imagining what they did with someone else, even if what they did was perfectly halal. The same, frankly, goes for women whose husbands are married to other women. Dwelling on these thoughts does nothing but bring anguish. You need to focus on the present.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
se7en
11/24/01 at 03:38:37
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, Look, first of all, it's a Friday in Ramadan - the *last* thing we should be doing is getting into something like this. [quote]Mods please do not delete or modify this message, i have a right to express my true feelings on such a major issue. [/quote] Lemme say three things, and then I'm going step away from the computer inshaAllah :) First of all, you are a Madina member.  This means you have agreed to abide by the rules of the [url=http://www.jannah.org/board/constitution.html]Madina Constitution[/url].  Yes, you have the right to express your feelings on the board, *as long as* your post does not go against these rules.   If, however, your post does go against these rules, mods have the right to go in and edit/delete it.  The rules are not all that oppressive or confining, I don't think.  (Please read them!) There are *many* other places on the web where there are no such rules or moderators or anything, and you can say whatever the heck you want.  If you feel like the rules of the Madina are too much for you, then perhaps this isn't the right place for you to be. This post of yours hasn't been edited or deleted because it doesn't go against the Constitution.  I completely disagree with most of what you've said; but disagreeing with me doesn't automatically mean your post will be deleted.  (If that were the case, A LOT of posts would have been deleted by now :P) Secondly, having strong feelings about an issue does not excuse you from being held accountable for the words you say.  Being passionate about something doesn't mean you shouldn't try to control your tongue.  You got something to say, you say it in the best manner possible; objectively, unemotionally, *carefully*, with wisdom, as your words are being read by *hundreds* of people. And lastly, Ramadan kareem.  May Allah allow this month to be a time for all of us to purify our selves, increase in eman and taqwa, and to strengthen our resolve to control our tongues and guard our limbs. take care :) wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
explorer
11/24/01 at 07:57:09
Mujahid [slm] Theres just one comment of yours I'd like to pick up on. You said:- [i]However if i did get trapped, and tricked, and married a women i thought was pure and untouched, and later, after marriage found out she had boyfriends in the past, then i would divorce her.[/i] Deep down I don't think you really mean this. Or maybe you just don't know it yet. It seems like it was a kneejerk reaction for you bear anger towards them for some reason or another. Your wife is a blessing from Allah, you will love her devoutly, always be there for her and will share your most happiest moments with her. So why should you put an end to all this over some fault she committed when she was younger and immature - when she was yet to discover Islam for herself? How would you like if she held one of your pasts sins against you as grounds for divorce? You youself are not 100% pure of sin. None of us are. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Of course we all have personal preferences and a woman who has not dated before may be one of them. Thats entirely your choice and nothing wrong with it. However the jist of the matter is you cannot hold something against a fellow muslim, let alone against your own wife a past sin as grounds for divorce. Afterall the Prophet did say that there are 3 sins that if free of, we will be forgiven for anything else if Allah wills - one of them is resentment towards another muslim. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
meraj
11/24/01 at 08:02:25
slm, side note: someone's islam is not measured by the length of their beard or pants.. its the sound taqwaah in their heart and the manifestation of such taqwaah in their character, words, and actions. aiight thats all... continue :)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/24/01 at 09:52:35
Assalaamu-alaikum I refuse to change my views. I stand 100% behind what i posted, and what i said. You ay not agree, but fine. Its your choice. Go and tell those whose partners commit adultery that thier behaviour before they married should not have been looked at as a possible sign of what was to come. I have had brothers who have been divorced tell me that had they known their wife was or had been dating before they got married, they would not have married them and that it would have saved them a lot of heartache and misery. These are real people, real lives, real facts. This is not the goody two-shoes world "oo oo lets all forgive and forget, people change, blah blah blah." Yes people do change, but very few. People dont just do tings for no reason. People do certain things because thier more likely to do it then others. Why is it you can get sisters who dont even look at other bro's, yet others cannot stop flirting? Why is it you get some bro's who dont even listen to music, while others are out clubbing and dancing the night away with thier latest girl? People only do what they do because they are capable of it, hence not all people date, not all take drugs, not all steal etc, because its not in thier character to do such things. SO do dating people really loose that? I doubt it. Thats why so many divorces happen to people who used to date. Hajree "i don't know if that's really fair.. because Allah guides who He wants... maybe before He didn't guide a person- and that person dated and did all that horrible stuff... but then later on..the person was guided or actually saw the "light down the tunnel" or maybe had an "eyeopener" Fine, good for them. But then maybe they should tell thier propective partner about thier past, and let the partner decide for themselves. If dating, and then forgiveness for it is such a great thing, and all the doo-gooders think it should not matter, why would these same people be VERY reluctant to mention thier past if asked, while meeting someone for marriage talks? Because they KNOW in their heart that knowone wants to marry a sister who others have had thier hands on, no matter how religious or attactive she is. "but in the end- it all comes down to their iman and their faith and how they are presently...you're going to reject a good muslimah because of her past?? People change!" Not always, in fact rarely. Most people only change on the outside, most sisters only wear the hijab once they get older as it makes them "look better", and therefore improves their marital chances, as they know that men are impressed with decent religiuos girls. Maybe they have cnahged, but i dont want someone who "may" have chagnged, because i aint prepared to "wait and see" to find out! I want a happy trouble free life. Kashif "make me think that you don't have much interaction with kuffaar/non-practising Muslims" Really? The fact i spend 9 hours a day with such people is more then enough interaction. Also i was referring to Muslims only, not kaafirs. Kafirs do what they do because its thier culture. It aint muslim culture or muslim ways to copy them. "You seem to make assumptions about the whole of the Muslim ummah based on the mini-universe you're living in" So I ask you, find me where i said i was referring to the whole muslim ummah. I was referring to muslims in the UK. "PS for what its worth, i also think you can cut the drama regarding MFs comment" So how would you feel if i said you have the views you do because maybe you used to date etc? Wouldn't you be just a bit annoyed if i made such an accusation about you? Shawar " Mujaahid--at least try living up to your name. I am disgusted by what you wrote." disgusted by something that is true? "What kind of a world do you live in?" The real one. "But...if you define them as such then here's what you wrote about her which she did not say so herself, so I don't know where you got that from: If that is a risk your prepared to take, them i pity you. I was not referring to her, i was speaking in a hypothetical sense, speaking to everyone without directly referring to one person. Seven "There are *many* other places on the web where there are no such rules or moderators or anything, and you can say whatever the heck you want.  If you feel like the rules of the Madina are too much for you, then perhaps this isn't the right place for you to be." SO your basically tell me to get lost. Fine. Also may i just point out, i didnt break any rules, so i dont see why i was given that lecture about breaking rules. Maybe if i did, then fine, but i didnt. Its like stopping a man an innocent man, in the street and saying "if you steal, i'm gona arrest you", even though he aint done nothing. Explorer "Theres just one comment of yours I'd like to pick up on. You said:- [i]However if i did get trapped, and tricked, and married a women i thought was pure and untouched, and later, after marriage found out she had boyfriends in the past, then i would divorce her.[/i] Deep down I don't think you really mean this." Yes i do. I have always felt this way. And to ever avoid it, i will make this point clearly when i meet marriage partners. If that means i restrict my choice, so what. I aint marrying something that does not fit my criteria. Only a good muslimah. With a good past. "How would you like if she held one of your pasts sins against you as grounds for divorce?" It would depend on the sin. If i was loose and had a bad past, and i lied to her about this, but she later found out it was true, then i think she would be doing a great thing in divorcing me, for herself it shows she has high standards and anything which falls short aint good enough. ". However the jist of the matter is you cannot hold something against a fellow muslim, let alone against your own wife a past sin as grounds for divorce" Yes i can. And many bro's i know have done the same. Who really wants a wife who other men have had thier hands on? I cannot think of anyone. I reiterate i have broken no house rules, and i stand firm on what i have said. Why? Because that is the reality of what really happens. Yes you all come out with your hero talk of forgiveness and people changing, but i get the feeling that in your own personal lives, if such things happened, you wouldnt be so forgiving.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Mystic
11/24/01 at 10:52:23
[slm] This conversation is getting way too touchy :( [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
bhaloo
11/24/01 at 11:20:07
slm Let's all try and use good manners when talking with each other, insha'Allah.  There is no reason to be harsh, insulting, or suspicious of each other.  May Allah (SWT) guides us and reward us with paradise. This was Q/A from Sheikh Munajidd related to the issue brought up in this thread: One of my friends just married with a beautiful girl a few months ago. Before marriage my friend was thinking that he's wife is so religious and never went out with any guy in her whole life. He was thinking that his wife has never done anything bad. He really loved her. But after a few months of marriage he found out that his wife has gone out with someone else and had boyfriend before marriage. My friend is really upset now. He really loved her wife and never thought of her like that. He doesn't love her anymore. He wanted wife like who never went out with anyone or had boyfriend. He doesn't understand what to do. He's planning to get divorce. When he asked me for my advice, i couldn't tell him anything because i have no idea what to say. So, please tell me what should i tell him. What should he do, next? Should he give divorce to her or forget about her past? What does islam says about this situation? Thank you, Praise be to Allaah. If this woman has mended her ways and has repented to Allaah and has given up haraam things and going out with men, and there are no reasons to be suspicious about her, then our advice is that your friend should keep her and conceal her past mistakes. Whoever conceals a Muslim’s faults, Allaah will conceal his faults in this world and the next. Allaah is Forgiving and Merciful, He forgives and accepts the repentance of the one who turns to Him in repentance. So we should be forgiving and should treat the one who has repented in accordance with the way he is now, and help him to continue to repent. The one who has repented is like one who has never sinned at all. If the husband conceals his wife’s past mistakes and treats her well, this will be of immense benefit in helping this woman adhere to the straight path and encouraging her to continue living a life of purity and chastity; her husband will also have a great reward for concealing her faults, keeping her chaste and helping her to avoid evil and stay on the straight path, living under his care in a pure atmosphere in the marital home. If this woman is still persisting in mischief and going out with men and committing haraam actions, and does not repent despite being advised to do so, then we do not suggest that he should keep her at all. Let him get rid of her and Allaah will provide him with another wife. If she has repented, but he cannot bear what she has done in the past, and he is tormented with bad thoughts that give him sleepless nights, and he is scared that if he keeps her he may mistreat her even though she has repented, then he can divorce her so as to give himself peace of mind and avoid mistreating her. But he should look at the matter anew and think long and hard about the advice we have given here. Let him think about himself too: maybe he has made mistakes in the past, or will do so in the future. We ask Allaah to help him to make the right decision and to guide him to the best way. Allaah is the Source of strength and the Guide to the Straight Path.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Hania
11/24/01 at 12:42:57
slm I was talking with my papa today about Afghanistan and how Muslims were fighting and torturing their own Brothers. We felt so sad in our hearts and went to the mosque and prayed for them. After I thought I’d come to this board to try and cheer myself up, but when I read this thread I felt like crying. This board is changing, I see Brothers and Sisters become more aggressive and rude to one another each day. Togetherness, community spirit, forgiveness, friendliness, that’s what this board used to be about. But today, I really thought about leaving this board. I don’t think I want to be emersed in an environment where arguments, abating, humiliating and belittling each other in public is becoming the norm, whether it be by member or moderator. (Use IM or e-mail if you really have a need to argue or humilate someone, but better still don't do it). Hania.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
M.F.
11/24/01 at 15:09:19
Assalmau alaikum, I just wanted to say in public that I never ever ever meant to imply anything about brother muhaajid in my post.  As you all can see I've modified it.  The last thing I want to do is cause anyone anger or pain in this month of Ramadan or any other time for that matter.  For all it's worth, I'm sorry, even though I am adament in saying that you totally misinterpreted what I meant, and Allah is a witness to that. I never thought it would be taken to be an implication of any sort.  Why would I ever do that??? I don't even KNOW the person!  Being hurt doesn't "imply" anything.  There have been engagements and marriages that have broken up and caused people pain.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Mystic
11/24/01 at 16:03:24
[slm] Chill out ladies:):):):) there is nothing going on, on the board, that some "soft" serve ice cream and a bottle of cold water can't solve:):):):) or maybe that delicious ice cream cake I just bought :-) Ok, its Ramadhan... May Be more along the lines of Wudhoo and two Rakaahs? ;) gotta stop here....jus' wanted to lighten the mood in this joint:):):):) Take care y'all:) [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
se7en
11/25/01 at 00:49:44
as salaaamu alaykum, just a side comment.. [quote]your friend should keep her [/quote][quote]we do not suggest that he should keep her at all[/quote][quote]he is scared that if he keeps her he may mistreat her [/quote] what is she, a puppy ??!? :P good advice though :) wasalaaamu alaykum.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Anik
11/25/01 at 05:03:19
asalaamu alaikum, I didn't even bother to read what's been going on in this thread, my two cents, Dating is practice for divorce. Practice. Nuff said. asalamau alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/25/01 at 08:39:29
<Dating is practice for divorce. Practice. Nuff said> What? What is that supposed to mean? Are you saying dating is a good thing as it prepares you for the heartache of divorce? Or are you saying that dating is gona lead to divorce? Bhaloo, great post from Al-munajjid. He made the final point, that he recommended the bro divorce his wife if he found it unbearable to cope with what she had done, and this is EXACTLY the point i was trying to make, that most bro's CANNOT cope with knowing thier wife had been involved with another man, and so its best to avoid that situation in the first place by NOT marrying such women as its only gona lead to misery.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BroHanif
11/25/01 at 09:35:39
Ice cream for Iftar...

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BroHanif
11/25/01 at 09:36:58
Followed by Pizza and Chips.... ok remove this and the above post!

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BroHanif
11/25/01 at 09:34:51
AWW, This post is a bit personal but I hope it helps, Some time ago me any friend were talking about the problems of the ummah, I was telling him about this issue and that issue and slowly the conversation started to go towards women. I was asking him how would your wife feel if you and got killed one day would she re-marry. ???? He said I hope so and I hope its one of you guys who marrys her. Surprised I said why ? He said well its better to take care of a muslimah as a husband rather than her  being left alone. His words left me wonderstruck and then he related a stroy to me, this is no jackanory or fairy tale story this is the truth. My friend who was not married yet was in jamaat(the tabligh jamaat) couple of years ago and they went to South Africa. Once there, they met many brothers and invited them towards the mosque. One brother was talking to my friend and towards the end the conversation again went back to the most favorite topic women and marrige. This brother was saying his happy in his marrige and his wife treats him like a king and this and that and he says she feels like a queen in the house. So my friend in jest answered so where do you get these queens ??? the brother replied you see that street we passed when giving dawah well at a certain time prostitutes hang out over there, aske one of em to become your wife. My friend at this point was embarrased, everyone was laughing at him and he felt dejected, however, the brother didn't see the funny side he looked quite puzzled and started to become a bit angry. He said to my friend whats wrong with you guys, they may be prostitutes by they are Muslims, they have no other source of income thats why they perform such an act, he carried on giving the jammat brothers more admonishment and said finally if we as muslims were true to our word we would marry these women, get them off the street, into our homes and give them the honour which Islaam only gives them. Thats why he said my wife is a queen, she was a prostitute before she was nothing but when she married me she had something, she gave up prostitution because she now has hope and she has a loving husband.   In Dubai it is a similiar story the dowry that women demand is in 100K, many people can't afford this thats why they commit zinah because to commit zinah is much easier than to raise 100k for dowry. Now ask yourself this question if you are a youth, regardless of how deeny you are, well all have our sexual urges. How many of us would commit zinah and how many of us would stay pure until the ripe age of 45-50 ? Not many... This is the situation of the ummah my dear friends...a sad but true situation. On a final note, lets be nice to each other. If we 342 members of the board can't speak to each other nicely and be on good terms with each other, how are we gonna unite the ummah.? We all have our differences but the smart is working together and not against each other. The battle of Badr should be an example to us all 313 muslims united vs 1000 evil kufr divided amongst each other. [quote]Togetherness, community spirit, forgiveness, friendliness, that’s what this board used to be about. But today, I really thought about leaving this board.[/quote] It'd be a shame if you did Sis Hania, I've liked your posts. Things will change insha-allah, make dua. Salaams Enjoy ramzan and make dua for me... Hanif

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Hania
11/25/01 at 15:47:27
slm Thank you for your kind comments Brother Hanif :) I won't leave this board, I was just trying to create an air of dramatics in my previous post, I hope my performance was not too melodramatic <bow to the sound of clapping and cheers of encore from the audience then wake up into reality..........> :) But seriously I know a few people that have actually been really hurt and upset by comments 'certain' members have made, these past couple of days :( I know this is side-tracking from the main post, but if a Muslim woman has no other means of feeding herself, is it permissible to practice prostitution? Would it be seen as a serious sin or given the circumstances would it be seen as something that was deemed acceptable? Han.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Anik
11/25/01 at 17:27:32
asalaamu alaikum, I definitley don't think it's acceptable, because Allah SWT provides for us and we all must try in an honest and righteious fashion- similar to a poor man becoming a hit man or thief- understandable by circumstance, unacceptable by the act itself. On to addressing brother Mujahid: Let me clarify my statement for you brother, perhaps you have never heard this modern adage before. When you date, as we all know, you go through getting-together, falling in "love", getting tired of each other, demanded desires and wants, seeing the  best for ourselves, and when the person doesn't suit us any longer, they are tossed out and another is found. With that mentality, people don't usually change their mode of thinking in marriage- same way, give me what i want and need or take a hike; it's always, what's in it for me? The more times you've broken out of a dating relationship, the easier it is to say goodbye - the experienced traveller always has easy goodbyes, while the non-traveller always finds it hard a rolling stone gathers no moss, the stone that is firm in Islam gathers that moss: shame, manners, responsibility, respect. And so, it is easier to get a divorce after experience from dating because essenially the scenario has been played out time and time before already... it's not really a new thing. In the Qu'ran, does it not say, marry one who has done the same as you? An adulterer marry an adulterer, etc? I think that is advisable in certain situations since there is understanding of background and the two can build from there. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BroHanif
11/25/01 at 18:05:14
AWW, [quote]but if a Muslim woman has no other means of feeding herself, is it permissible to practice prostitution? Would it be seen as a serious sin or given the circumstances would it be seen as something that was deemed acceptable?[/quote] [quote]I definitley don't think it's acceptable, because Allah SWT provides for us and we all must try in an honest [/quote] I agree with you brother Abdullah but living in a poverty stricken country where one faces either death from hunger or either steal then its a tough decision. Lets hope we never have to make a decision like that. First I 'm not a scholar so don't go by what I have said, my postings may come from a slight Islamic stance but that does not mean that they are Islamic and are binding,please do your own research. I can't say its agreeable or not, I have my own research, but if one does not have food and steals/prostitution etc Islamic Sharia states the state should find out why such a person commited such an act, before punishment is given. During my travels once, I met a man once who was taking photos of people against an Islamic backdrop. Being high on  Islaam I decided to check this brothers action about taking photos of people. I told him about how wrong it is to take photos and this and that...and then he said to me.. ok Bro you know why I do this...??? he began to tell me, the injustice of this certain country where he was residing, where he has to work illegally, and perform an act which in someways goes against Islaam. He went on to say I don't want to do this but if I don't then I'll become a hungry theif. Being full of guilt and remorse I learnt my lesson that day. It was a tough one and one full of different examples on how to give dawah, talking to someone and how a persons earnings even though they may be hallal or harramare earned, because Allah is the last judge.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
kiwi25
11/25/01 at 22:35:57
salam, 'tis the month of ramadhan..*... LETS FORGIVE!!!! wasalam nouha:)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Seeker
11/25/01 at 23:43:26
[slm] subhanallah, some of these posts are making *me say astaghfirallah. So much fitna. It's sacry that Shaytan is locked up, but has still left us with traces of his doings. Also scary where these posts have gone.. ok, like everyone else here, got a few points: - there is so much knowlege in this quote "I looked at all friends, and did not find a better friend than safeguarding the tongue." I think we all should get to know this friend a little better. We lose the spirit of sawm when we neglect him. - Ramadhan is also the time when muslims *really* work on purifying their souls.  If you can't even take into consideration scrutiny in this this world and of others, you're not going to last when asked about your sins in the next?  Martin Luther King Jr. (dude, this man is so with it!) said when faced with an oppressor, 1) identify the wrong doing 2) confront the opressor and negotiate 3) (reeealy interesting) if the negotiation doesn't work, self-purification. Maybe there is something wrong with you. 4) and  *then* respond to the opressor. (I like my  *s, and yeah sister's halqa!--->Hamza Yusuf tape) ok that's all. May Allah strengthen our Ummah. Ameen. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
eleanor
11/26/01 at 06:52:04
slm Interesting thread. It's  a shame that in all the hype about Br.Mujahidd's post that the original article got kind of lost. I hadn't read this thread till today, but when I saw it had gone onto 3 pages I decided something big was going down and speculated on which of our infamous brothers had had his fingers in the pie again! Hania, take it easy, and anyone else who has been negatively affected by this thread. We've been through all this before.. there have been and will be threads like this on the Madinat. Hmm, maybe the hunger is getting to some people! Yesterday I was a bit ratty with my husband and he told me I wasn't allowed to fast because the hunger was driving me mad!!! ;-D I told him that that was absolutely untrue and that it was my own personal jihad! Humph! Astafirullah, all this fighting in Ramadan, when we should be purifying ourselves and coming closer to Allah, Insha Allah. So, looking forward to Iftar Insha Allah.. dates dates and more dates for me. Or as I prefer to call them - Kajoor! It sounds so much nicer when you say Kajoor! Take it easy, my big crazy Madinat family, wasalaam eleanor 8-)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Kathy
11/26/01 at 10:35:02
slm ewwwww- this is a topic I could have really sunk my teeth into. I have choosen not to. Mainly because if the brother feels this way it is better for him not to marry anyone but the perfect virgin girl.(rather- better for her) But then.... he may miss out on someone like me.......

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/26/01 at 12:14:40
Assalaamu-alaikum "Mainly because if the brother feels this way it is better for him not to marry anyone but the perfect virgin girl.(rather- better for her)" Kathy you seem to be mocking me for wanting to marry a pure chaste untouched muslim women? Why? Maybe it was unintentional, but you came across like those westerners who mock people if they are virgins into thier late teens. I have made my feelings clear on this. I will marry knowone who falls short of what i want. I dont want a miss world, or a super model, or someone who is the "queen of the class", i dont want a women that other guys would die for, i dont want a women who feels she is above everyone else. All i want is a practising muslim sister who has never been involved with another man, a sister who no man has ever laid his dirty hands on. Is that asking too much? Does that make me the bad guy of the boards? You ALL seem to be missng the point i have been making. The point i have made over and over is that often marriages where one or the other used to date before marriage often end in disaster, simply because when the bro finds out his wife used to be involved with boyfiends, often its too much for him to bear and he cannot cope with the anguish and so usually divorces the wife. I have seen this happen many times, i've heard of even more cases. VERY few bro's can accept and be happy with a wife who used to date men before they married. Thats why sisters often hide thier past, because they know most men will not look at them if they were involved with others. WHY DONT ANYONE take up on these points instead of going down other pointless roads? Your trying to avoid the issues! WHY!!!!! "But then.... he may miss out on someone like me" Yeah, BUT you were divorced. Its not the same as having a boyfriend. being married is 100% halah, so no man could say "oo oo you were maried to another man, thats so bad blah blah". Its not the same as a sister having a sexual or physical relationship with a "boyfriend".

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BroHanif
11/26/01 at 18:20:24
I think this thread is getting a bit too personal. Especially if there is no shame or hayah. It's best if its now locked or even removed.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Kathy
11/26/01 at 19:02:53
slm Yikes! I wasn't mocking you. I said it was better for you - Mujaheed- to marry a chaste woman. Ii would be best for your wife not to have a previous man too. Especially if you feel this strong. Please forgive me if you felt I was mocking you. You would definately know it if I was- I put in those rolly eyes! My post was meant to clarify for the divorced women and for non virgin reverts. Some of us do turn out to be pretty good wives.
NS

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Barr
11/27/01 at 04:49:02
Assalamu'alaikum :-) [quote]The point i have made over and over is that often marriages where one or the other used to date before marriage often end in disaster... [snip] VERY few bro's can accept and be happy with a wife who used to date men before they married. Thats why sisters often hide thier past, because they know most men will not look at them if they were involved with others. WHY DONT ANYONE take up on these points instead of going down other pointless roads? Your trying to avoid the issues! WHY!!!!! [/quote] Akhi, I think its a matter of perspectives and definition. Reasons for divorces or leading to divorces are multi-faceted. Though there may be a main reason cited for basis of divorce, but there are a lot of factors and underlying issues, for real life is dynamic. Certainly, the same trend, that you cited cannot be applied to all Muslim communities all over the world. Especially, in regions where the majority of Muslims do "date"; both men and women. For one would find strong correlations between dating and divorce, but as mentioned earlier... strong correlations would also be found between eating bread and divorce too. But that does not equate to lead people to divorce. Hence, here, we find the difference in definition and function of "dating" and one's perception of those who do date or used to date, and the criteria and expectations that one has for his/her spouses. Research in divorce where I come from, do not cite the reason that you proposed to be the reason why people divorce. In addition, my personal observation about Muslim divorces in the UK that ocurred has more depth than irreconcillable differences and a "shocking revelation", as you implied. Marriage in itself is more complex and deep. Nevertheless, I think a lot of marriages CAN be saved and divorces prevented, still, before it reaches the saturation point. Allahua'lam :-) P.S. By dating I don't mean pre-marital sex.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
gift
11/27/01 at 04:37:53
[slm] yikes :o i feel really responsible for this huge argument that has erupted out of this thread :-( i only posted the article becuase there had been a lot of anonymous posts about such questions. [quote]I think this thread is getting a bit too personal. Especially if there is no shame or hayah. It's best if its now locked or even removed. [/quote] perhaps this is the best solution :-( [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
BrKhalid
11/27/01 at 07:34:04
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]You ALL seem to be missng the point i have been making. The point i have made over and over is that often marriages where one or the other used to date before marriage often end in disaster, simply because when the bro finds out his wife used to be involved with boyfiends, often its too much for him to bear and he cannot cope with the anguish and so usually divorces the wife[/quote] [color=Red]Muslim + Dating = Divorce :( [/color] [quote]The only instance i would forgive or ignore a persons past is that of a convert. Before they converted, they were kaafirs, hence they would have done what kaafirs do, one of the things being dating, but because they converted to islaam, thier past is IMMEDIATLY forgiven and so i have no reason to hold it against them[/quote] [color=Red]Non Muslim + Dating + Conversion = Happy marriage :) [/color] [color=Red]Muslim + Dating + Sincere Repentance = ??? [/color] It seems to me that there are two opinions in this thread as to what the last answer should be. Wasalaam Br Khalid

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
bhaloo
11/27/01 at 10:19:46
slm Mashallah Br. Khalid, that was very well put, you summed it up so nicely. :)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Mystic
11/27/01 at 10:45:55
[slm] I am down with Br. Khalid's summary...jus' to continue the line of thought... With all the above, as long as the Jihad-ul-Nafs (self jihad) is discontinued at any point dis-enchantment is quick to set in and life goes down hill from there. The struggle is constant in this temporal world, but It IS temporary. And as long as Muslims world wide believe and agree with this, the Ummah at large will be more than peaceful. May Allah facilitate our strength (Amin). [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
M.F.
11/27/01 at 15:04:25
[quote] Muslim + Dating + Sincere Repentance = ??? It seems to me that there are two opinions in this thread as to what the last answer should be. Wasalaam Br Khalid [/quote] Assalamu alaikum, For the last option, here's my opinion, wallahu a'lam: 1-Allah accepts sincere repentance. 2-However, human beings aren't always as forgiving as Allah is. 3-So, it depends on each human being and how much they're willing to forgive. OR- Allah could also decide to purify the sincerely repenting sinner by punishing them in this life rather than the next, and therefore put them through many trials, one of which could be divorce.  OR not. am I making ANY sense?

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
Barr
11/28/01 at 00:55:28
Assalamu'alaikum :-) This is especially for those who may have been hurt by this thread... [color=blue][center]"Women impure are for men impure, And men impure are for women impure, And women of purity (toyyibat) are for men of purity And men of purity are for women of purity These are not affected by what people say: For them is forgiveness And a provision honourable" Surah An-Nur 24:26[/color][/center] Never stop believing in Allah's promises.. find strength in them. Let's do our part of the bargain, and strive to be a toyyibat, albeit our past. Take care all, wassalam :-)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
amal
11/28/01 at 01:22:15
slm, Barr, jazaki Allahu kheyran for posting that ayah...i was gonna do that myself but you beat me to it :) Like Barr said, lets worry about our own conditions and whether we deserve a tayyib husband/wife and leave the rest to Allah(swt). He knows what is in the heart of each of us, our deepest secrets, and what we reveal to others. The way i see it...Somebody might have committed a major sin and repented whereas we might not have committed an obvious major sin but become arrogant with the little deeds that we have,start judging other people,and before you know it commit a graver one.Let's be carefull not to fall into that trap.This is an advice for myself before anyone else.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
solehah
11/29/01 at 09:41:33
Assalamualaikum wr wb I offer Istighfar first before replying to allow myself calm reflections and to allow time for anger and nafs to diminish, Insya'Allah. Like I said, I have been away for so long that I am out of synch with most things here but Sis Barr mentioned this thread to me so ta daaa here I am :) As I read the posts and replies, I feel a mixture of emotions.  Amazement that people can have a strong conviction about something they have no first hand knowledge of, happiness that the Madinat community is a forgiving and loving community....and amusement.  Yes amusement. You know, I am always very amused by famous last words because ALlah has a beautiful way of making us eat our words sometimes :) Especially when we tend to be very adamant about things we know little about. Brother Mujaahid has EVERY right to express his thoughts and his wishes, and if his thoughts and wishes are galling to some of us, well then, Istighfar and move on.  As a sister I pray that he does not have to eat his own words. As a sister I sincerely hope that his famous last words do not haunt him. Never is a very funny operative word because how many of us actually are blessed with this amazing gift called future telling ? I know I once told my friend that I will NEVER eat sushi ..but now I am hooked (ask Sis Barr). I know that I once told myself I will NEVER associate with a friend who betrayed me...but I am now a very close friend to a sister who once betrayed our friendship. Life is a very complex phenomenon with things happening beyond our wildest dreams and expectations. Sometimes there are also events that are beyond our reasoning and understanding.  Still they happen, whether we want them to or not, whether we understand them or not.  I mean, how many of us can honestly sit down now and tell others " I know what's gonna happen in my future. I know for sure who I am gonna marry. I know for sure whomy future wife/husband will be."?  Can you Bro Mujaahid ? Amongst the 4 Khalifahs, the one I admire most is Umar.  The man who used to slay thousands of Muslims with his sword, the one who used to regard the Prophet SAW as his bitterest enemies, the one who used to boast about how he will personally make Muslims suffer and denounce their faith.  The man who was humbled by the beautiful recitation of the Al Quranul Kareem.  Why do I admire him most ? Because I admire those who have known pain before pleasure, who have suffered before happiness, who have died before living.  How many of us can claim that we shall definitely be stronger from tragedies, that we will be better than before ? Only those who have fallen and risen again can make that claim. I am married to a very nice man, ALhamdulillah, but I am not married to a perfect man. I am not perfect too ( surprise ! ) I married him for his strengths, not for his past. And he married me because " she is the one woman who I know would make my struggles seem lighter " regardless of my past(hi..this is her hubby speaking). As for our future ? Wallahualam bissawab. Bro Mujaahid, my sincerest dua for your happiness in this world and the Hereafter.  Just some sisterly caution.  Next time, when you want to talk authoritatively abt something, make sure you a) support it with facts 2) do it with adab 3)at least know what you are talking about.  Last heard you are looking for a wife.  Be careful what you wish for. About a fornicator always being a fornicator ? Well, Bro Yusuf Islam was a drug abuser and a man used to free sex.  Lemme go and check with him if he has reverted back to his old habits after YEARS of reforming and dakwah. My famous last words ? We all want our sins to be forgiven and for us to be accepted for who we are...so why cant we forgive others for their sins and accept others for who they are ? *shrugs* If I have offended with this post, please forgive me. Wallahualam bissawab

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
M.F.
11/30/01 at 08:26:23
Thank you sister Solehah.  Thank you.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
halwa
11/30/01 at 11:29:38
Assalamu ALaikum Jazaki Allahu Khairan sister ive been reading up on this thread, and it hurts me to see that there exists people who think that forgiveness does not exist. Because what i got from this brother's point of view was that forgeiveness is not an option. ALhamdulilah, you said everything that i had wanted to say, but could not put together. May Allah(swt) guide us all to the straight path. Ameen Wasalamu ALaikum nassiba

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/30/01 at 13:25:35
Solehah dont take this the wrong way, but i remeber saying in one of my earleir posts that i had no time for hero talk. Your post is hero talk, the kind of stuff people say to rouse crowds, to build up emotion, yet once the speech is over, everyone goes back to thier own ways. You can sya what you like, yet you failed to address the main points i had made, namely, most bro's cannot accept or bear the thought of thier wife having been with another man, hence the divorce rate is so high because of this. Are you telling me that all the stories i've heard about bro's finding out about a sisters past, then divorcing her are all fabricated? I have seen with my own eyes. OK so your speech was good, but its all talk. In reality, forgiveness aint so easy. Yeah its easy for YOU to go and tell some guy to forgive his wife for her past. But to him it wont be so easy. And about eating my own words, i dont know what exactly you were referring to, but i take it your saying i will marry a sis with a dodgy past? Well i might, i'f i'm lied to and trapped, then yes, i probably will, but if the truth  ever came out, it would be divorce immediatly. I wouldnt even bother to ask why she had covered it up. Someone with such a past i dont wanna marry, and will not marry, unless tricked. Yes i am looking for a wife, and i am in no rush. I aint gona make the mistakes so many others have made and marry some dodgy women who hides the real side to her character by simply pulling on a hijab. I'm only 21, i have many years to look. If the right women came to me today, and proposed, and she seemed ok to me, i would be happy to get married immediatly. However if i have to wait 6/7 years, i dont mind.   You may call me crazy, but i am an EXCELLANT judge of people's characters, and just by looking at a womens face, and listening to her speak, i can immediatly tell if she is a dodgy type. What are the signs? I shall never say, its a secret, if these "secrets" are known, women will simply try and hide them. I know what they are, and inshallah they shall protect me from having an unhappy future. Inshallah. In fact, just by reading the words of all the sisters on this forum i can pretty easily judge what they have done. Call me stupid and an idiot, but i have ways of sussing people out, and i am certain 90% of the time i will be right. Maasalaam.

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
amal
11/30/01 at 13:41:55
slm, [quote] Amongst the 4 Khalifahs, the one I admire most is Umar.  The man who used to slay thousands of Muslims with his sword, the one who used to regard the Prophet SAW as his bitterest enemies, the one who used to boast about how he will personally make Muslims suffer and denounce their faith.  The man who was humbled by the beautiful recitation of the Al Quranul Kareem.  Why do I admire him most ? Because I admire those who have known pain before pleasure, who have suffered before happiness, who have died before living.  How many of us can claim that we shall definitely be stronger from tragedies, that we will be better than before ? Only those who have fallen and risen again can make that claim. [/quote] So true...so true...thank you solelah for a beautifull reminder. We should all take heed from the prophet's[saw] words: [color=red] Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them. (MUSLIM) [/color] Subhana'Allah wal Hamdulillah wal Allahu Akbar.If THE King of kings Himself prefers a repenting sinner over a servant without sins, then who are we to judge or think that our fogiveness is even needed???

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
amal
11/30/01 at 16:38:01
[quote] just by looking at a womens face, and listening to her speak, i can immediatly tell if she is a dodgy type. [...] In fact, just by reading the words of all the sisters on this forum i can pretty easily judge what they have done. Call me stupid and an idiot, but i have ways of sussing people out, and i am certain 90% of the time i will be right. [/quote] Even sisters on the board are not spared from your tongue now??

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
mujaahid
11/30/01 at 16:56:35
What? You see again you blow it out of all proportions. Anyway i'm gona shut up now. Now the hadith you mentioned does not mean we SHOULD go out and commit haraam acts, although you seem to have taken it that way. We KNOW that ALL of us will commit sins, no matter how religious. SO to claim someone who sins and repents is better than someone who dont sin is not an accurate statement because thier is no such person as one who dont sin, they dont exist. Only the prophets were perfect. Not us. :0p

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
amal
11/30/01 at 17:00:38
[quote] thier is no such person as one who dont sin, they dont exist. Only the prophets were perfect. Not us. :0p [/quote] Exactly!!! i rest my case

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
amal
11/30/01 at 17:22:14
[quote]What? You see again you blow it out of all proportions. Anyway i'm gona shut up now. Now the hadith you mentioned does not mean we SHOULD go out and commit haraam acts, although you seem to have taken it that way. [/quote] You can spend all day insulting me and i won't reply to you in the manner you deserve...you know why?? [color=red] Abu Huraira. reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do you know who is poor? They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: A poor man amongst us is one who has neither dirham with him nor wealth. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The poor of my Umma would be he who would come on the Day of Resurrecton with prayers and fasts and Zakat but (he would find himself bankrupt on that day as he would have exhausted his funds of virtues) since he hurled abuses upon others, brought calumny against others and unlawfully consumed the wealth of others and shed the blood of others and beat others, and his virtues would be credited to the account of one (who suffered at his hand). And if his good deeds fall short to clear the account, then his sins would be entered in (his account) and he would be thrown in the Hell-Fire (MUSLIM) [/color] I don't mind some extra good deeds :)

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
explorer
11/30/01 at 17:46:55
[slm] [i]Well i might, i'f i'm lied to and trapped, then yes, i probably will, but if the truth  ever came out, it would be divorce immediatly.[/i] Even if you have children? [i]In fact, just by reading the words of all the sisters on this forum i can pretty easily judge what they have done.[/i] I don't think anyone is in a position to judge sisters on the board by merely what they have written. Sometimes many people, including myself, are not good at expressing their points and getting their views across in words. So to judge one, whom you have never met, nor seen, or heard is extremely naive. [wlm]

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
solehah
11/30/01 at 20:24:24
Salaam Bro Mujaahid [quote]Solehah dont take this the wrong way, but i remeber saying in one of my earleir posts that i had no time for hero talk. Your post is hero talk, the kind of stuff people say to rouse crowds, to build up emotion[/quote] Has it ever occured to you that perhaps I BELIEVE in what I write ? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, I am not interested in rousing people's emotions ? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe I feel insulted at the mere suggestion that I am writing this just to gain support and not because I feel its my sisterly duty to try and offer an alternative viewpoint ? [quoteYou can sya what you like, yet you failed to address the main points i had made, namely, most bro's cannot accept or bear the thought of thier wife having been with another man, hence the divorce rate is so high because of this. Are you telling me that all the stories i've heard about bro's finding out about a sisters past, then divorcing her are all fabricated? I have seen with my own eyes.[/quote] I DO NOT say what I like (may ALlah forgive me if I have done so) I say what I feel needed saying.  And I had addressed the points raised, even if you have miserably failed to understand them.  I am not saying that you fabricate anything but I am saying that in case you forget, your knowledge is somewhat limited, as ours are.  I work in a social work and counselling environment.  I have counselled couples seeking divorce. Let me tell you brother, that divorce is a very complicated event so please don't think that the cause of divorce is a wife's past. If a man cited that reason, then as a counsellor I would prefer to focus on the couple's poor communication skills and also poor problem coping skills. For your information, the applicants for divorce ar usually females.  The reasons they cited for divorce ? Irresponsible husband.  So brother, please do not generalise. And what you saw with your own eyes ? How many percent out of total divorce cases are due to that ? [quote]OK so your speech was good, but its all talk. In reality, forgiveness aint so easy. Yeah its easy for YOU to go and tell some guy to forgive his wife for her past. But to him it wont be so easy.[/quote] Brother, I am very insulted by this statement.  It's not all talk. Do you know what I went through in my life ? Do you know what kind of person I am ? Do you know how much I had to forgive ? [quote]And about eating my own words, i dont know what exactly you were referring to, but i take it your saying i will marry a sis with a dodgy past?[/quote] No. I was referring to your adamant stance on not forgiving and overlooking a person's past [quote]Well i might, i'f i'm lied to and trapped, then yes, i probably will, but if the truth  ever came out, it would be divorce immediatly. I wouldnt even bother to ask why she had covered it up. Someone with such a past i dont wanna marry, and will not marry, unless tricked.[/quote] My dua and sincerest pity for you. [quote]Yes i am looking for a wife, and i am in no rush. I aint gona make the mistakes so many others have made and marry some dodgy women who hides the real side to her character by simply pulling on a hijab.[/quote] Answer me one simple question then brother. What makes you so sure YOU decide who you marry ? Hmmmmmm [quote]In fact, just by reading the words of all the sisters on this forum i can pretty easily judge what they have done. Call me stupid and an idiot, but i have ways of sussing people out, and i am certain 90% of the time i will be right.[/quote] I won't call you an idiot. Rather I would call you hasty.  Judge me base on my writing if you will brother. But do bear in mind this one thing, ultimately, we fear only ALlah's judgement. Wallahualam bissawab

Re: The Mindless Dating Game - Happiness or Heartbreak
bhaloo
11/30/01 at 23:43:32
slm I am going to close this thread, because people's emotions are getting out of control.  There is no need to engage in useless arguing and insulting of each other, this is ramadan, a time for us to work on improving ourselves. There was a scholar's opinion posted in this thread, read that, and let's leave this foolishness.
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