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Charts for Starts
akbalkhan
12/05/01 at 15:47:20
As Salamu Alaikum, I have been mulling over, among the many things in the news, and the concerns for our brothers and sisters in anguish and loss, this past Ramadhan's starting date. I have recently began setting out to make my salaat according to the suns position and what is generally agreed upon in the hadiths for the stated times.   Some of the time it is not in direct agreement with the charts that are circulated that state prayer times to the minute. I know that there are different opinions from scholars regarding astronomical and civil measurements, and even between some national Islamic organizations  in the U.S.and other countries' methods. I also know that there are many Muslims in my community who use these charts when making salaat individually. I am concerned that so much attention is paid to using the unaided eye when looking for the hilal, however so few seem to look for the salaat time to determine the time for prayer. I never see muslims like myself, going outside to measure the shadows, or peek at the sun, or even write down the times of the days salaat after making measurements to aid in the next day if it is cloudy.  Perhaps I am not looking hard enough, or I just do not notice others, but is this a sunnah that anyone else here follows? Do you see it as a valuable sunnah to get back to, if it is not common in your communities? Regards, Qamar A. Kaan

Re: Charts for Starts
Rashid
12/05/01 at 16:01:11
[slm] Every year during the time to break the fast, this happens, where some brothers follow the stated time on the charts to break yet the sun is still visible, even a tiny sliver of it.  The problem I have with the charts is that they were prepared using regular clocks, and I think they are not 100 % accurate, for example my wristwatch might say 5:31, and yours might say 5:33...see what I mean?  But the sun is always there to tell us the time for salat and breaking the fast, on cloudy days you just play it safe and wait a minute or two, no big deal.  I mean charts are helpful but we should not take them as the final authority. [wlm]

Re: Charts for Starts
akbalkhan
12/05/01 at 16:26:59
Rashid, Thanks for the input. I agree with you completely. However, would it not be more involving and constructive to have a group in the masjid or community, take account each day or week and present an unaided-eye observation chart for the next week, or something like this. It just seems to me to be encouraging people to be lazy when it comes to looking for the prayer times according to sunnah, by passing out the charts.  And then, (figuratively) hypocritical for the same people who use the charts daily, to be up at arms at those who use charts for Ramadhan.  I personally think that it is kind of strange that people do not consider that the world does not work so mechanical, and actually we cannot be absolutely certain that the days that are celebrated by some to commemorate days thousands of years ago, really coincide exactly on the same day this year. I actually had a Muslim laugh at me when I told them I use the sun and shadows to tell the salaat times when refusing a chart that he offered. Kind of a question I have as well.  I certainly will ask a scholar next time I get a chance, but just to put it out there, was not the fast of Ramadhan originally practiced during the hottest month of the year?  Since this time of year pretty much stays the same, and there is an opinion that Ramadhan start dates should be considered locally, then would it be prudent to start Ramadhan during the summer as well? At what point should leaders in the community address any given issue where common practice, encouraged by masjids and organisations, has made it more convenient and accessible to practice other than sunnah? Can you think of any other situations like this where the sunnah is diverted through a common practice encouraged by leaders? I am not trying to create and divisions, or even question that which has been strongly established, hopefully just curious about how to reason these things out in terms of practice. Thank you  for any input- Regards, QAK

Re: Charts for Starts
se7en
12/09/01 at 02:48:01
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, This is actually something I've heard a speaker talk about in the past.  He mentioned the story of a Muslim man who called up a planetarium* to find out when the new moon would be born, and the man laughed and said, isn't it ironic that we used to come to you for such things, and now you come to us? SubhanAllah, I thought that was deep.  Muslims used to be the forerunners when it came to astronomy and such sciences, and we've lost touch with that. I think what you're doing is cool.  Similar to eating with your hands from a shared plate, or sleeping on the floor.  It's just reconnecting with a part of the sunnah that many of us neglect.  I think the danger comes with asserting that these things are required.   [quote]Kind of a question I have as well.  I certainly will ask a scholar next time I get a chance, but just to put it out there, was not the fast of Ramadhan originally practiced during the hottest month of the year?  Since this time of year pretty much stays the same, and there is an opinion that Ramadhan start dates should be considered locally, then would it be prudent to start Ramadhan during the summer as well?[/quote] Hmm.  This question reminds me of the question of performing the Jummah khutbah in Arabic.  It's really how you look at what's being done.  Was the khutbah done in Arabic because it's required to be done in Arabic; or was it done in Arabic because that was the language of the people? Similarly.. was Ramadan practiced at that particular time because it was the hottest time of the year; or because that was the ninth month of the lunar calendar? I think categorically all scholars believe it is the latter.     [quote]Can you think of any other situations like this where the sunnah is diverted through a common practice encouraged by leaders?[/quote] Is this a trick question? ;) Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah. * -- it was one of those observation thingies, don't remember what they're called :/

Re: Charts for Starts
kareema
12/09/01 at 03:36:40
I occasionally check the sun, but usually I just give or take 10 minutes to account for differences in location, etc. Charts are charts, created by humans and subject to error, misinterpetration and other such things. I often look out the window to see the place of the sun.I just don't trust another human with something as important as my salat. Some in my family think I'm being fanatical about it, insisting that I'm 100% sure of the times, but my salat is worth it.What reason is there not to spare a minute to do as the Prophet(saws) did? I don't know of any.

Re: Charts for Starts
akbalkhan
12/09/01 at 22:01:34
As Salamu Aliakum, No, Se7en, it is not a trick question. Its just like many things, when you grow up in al-Islam practicing a certain way, its easy to continue along in such a fashion, unaware that there are alternatives, even with the clear cut rules of al-Islam. I get your drift on the 9th lunar month answer, and that is definitely true, thanx. As far as the month of Ramadhan goes.....What about those people who fast a day earlier or later depending on the perspective?  The odd nights that we are suppose to look for are actually the even nights for some.  Does this not make it impossible to pinpoint laylatil qadr? And for those who pray a bit before the meridian for zuhri for making salaat according to the charts? Is not their salaat invalid due to its earliness?  Also, there is a masjid that I go to for Juma'ah, since it is close to my job, where they face a Qiblah due East instead of N East. I am not trying to stir anything up here.  And yes, I do believe that Allah Subhana Wa T'ala is going to look at the niyah for all those involved in said actions.  But I look around, and I look at myself, and I see that it is so easy to live in the U.S. and say to yourself, well, at least some of my actions are in accordance with the Sunnah of the ibadilihis saliheen, insha allah.   Just to chime with other posts that have appeared on this board, I feel you.  The clothes on our backs being made my exploited and opressed workers, even children; the television and media constantly pumping our skulls with images of society that make al-Islam seem like an ancient, forgotten by-gone; electricity generated(at least in Illinois) by 80% nuclear means, destroying wherever the wasted nuke tubes end up(most likely Yucca Mtn. the Shoshone and other native stomping grounds); petro that comes so cheap and has led to the sanctions and subsequent deaths of thousands of people in the Mid East; relatively clean air to breath, only 'cause 'we' Americans are so smart we put much of the harmful industry and manufacturing in 3rd world countries to let them breath it; food picked by people who have to work so much and in such conditions that pesticides and fertilizers get sprayed directly on them, and they live and bathe in the fields, just to keep the prices down; it goes on and on. I have to think that, although people will be held accountable for those things which they intentionally did to cause harm, there would be no justice if I did not have my own actions while living in this place also brought to bare along with its' ill rewards. Who do you think has the most rewards in this life and the akhira?  1) The muslim who was born in the desert, who knew nothing of the comfortable life of the 'civilized' nations, and remained living in the desert as a muslim their whole life; 2)the muslim who was born in the desert, found out about the comfortable life in the 1st world, rich cities, and left for them, remained a muslim; 3)the muslim who was born in the 1st world, rich cities, enjoyed the comfortable life and knew that the desert living was hard, and chose to remain; 4)or the muslim who was born in the 1st world, rich cities, came to enjoy the luxuries and comfortability, came to find out about the desert life, the value of its Sunnah, the rewards of the hardship and the piety that results, set out for it, and remained there. You know that cat 'Walker'?  May his wounds issue forth a scent like musk on the Qiyamah, insha allah, if he indeed was like the 4th above. Many times when I am making salaat, and I hear a loud noise, I take a short sudden breath, and my heart stops-every time- 'cause I think that it is the call of Israfel, masha'allah, masha'allah, masha'allah. Regards, QAK

Re: Charts for Starts
amatullah
12/10/01 at 22:50:14
Bismillah and salam, "At what point should leaders in the community address any given issue where common practice, encouraged by masjids and organisations, has made it more convenient and accessible to practice other than sunnah? Can you think of any other situations like this where the sunnah is diverted through a common practice encouraged by leaders?" Sadly yes it happens all too often. I think you should use hikma which is always not just the right words but also the right timing to address these issues. But it must be done, because if you don't try to make it right you are like a shaytan akhras (help! like one who can't speak?!). Astaghfirullah my language is going down :( I fear it is because of sin because knowldge and memory is a blessing and thunoob take away from blessings. astaghfirullah! In our community this year for the first time it was addressed why we do the khatma of the quran on the 27 night of ramadan. It becomes somewhat of a bid3a. People expect it and think it is sunnah or something. Someone mentioned some scholars saying even in your own personal ibada, if something is not sunna or mustahab then change its order or manner every now and then to avoid misguiding others. Alhemdulilah people were open to it. Another situation we face here is on the 40 day anniversary of someone's death they gather and do collective du3a and read quran and have food. This seems harder to break. Sorry to go on a tangent but Se7en you said: "Hmm.  This question reminds me of the question of performing the Jummah khutbah in Arabic.  It's really how you look at what's being done.  Was the khutbah done in Arabic because it's required to be done in Arabic; or was it done in Arabic because that was the language of the people?" The sahaba when they travelled and the people became impressed by the grace of Allah with their light and behaviour and would convert and start doing prayers, they did the khutbas in Arabic in all the foreign lands. I read something about this, which I cannot look for at the moment. But it was about the importance of learning Arabic to the non-arabic speaker, and the responsibility of teaching it by the Arabs. This example was one of the arguments for the case for preserving the language of quran in a non-arab country. I think it recommends that it is done in Arabic and have parts translated. This is also a good article masha'Allah: http://www.alharamain.org/english/newsletter/issue35/feature.htm

Re: Charts for Starts
Rehana
12/11/01 at 09:36:41
[quote ....was not the fast of Ramadhan originally practiced during the hottest month of the year?  [/quote] [slm] I stand to be corrected here, but I read somewhere that the beauty of the Islamic months is that it is dependant on the moon.  And as such, when it comes to eg. Ramadhan, you might find that this year you are fasting in the coldest time of the year and whereas I am fasting in our summer month.  This could be reversed in say 2 years time.  This means that the entire Ummah then experience fasting in all types of conditions. What I am trying to say is that the entire Muslim Ummah observe Ramadhaan together...so if we ALL wait for the hottest month of the year, we will never get down to it :-) Apologies in advance if you find that I have gone totaly off the track :) Jazaak-Allah [wlm]

Re: Charts for Starts
se7en
12/11/01 at 11:10:12
as salaamu alaykum, [quote]The sahaba when they travelled and the people became impressed by the grace of Allah with their light and behaviour and would convert and start doing prayers, they did the khutbas in Arabic in all the foreign lands. [/quote] We actually had a thread about this before.  Lemme see if I can find it..

Re: Charts for Starts
BrKhalid
12/11/01 at 11:28:34
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]We actually had a thread about this before.  Lemme see if I can find it..[/quote] The thread can be found [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=2429&start=0]here[/url] Nice to get in one ahead of Madamme da Link ;)
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