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'He' May Not Approve
akbalkhan
12/05/01 at 20:50:41
As Salamu Alaikum, If Allah Subhanah Wa T'ala disapproved the genderizing of the maalik'at, then what would make anyone think that calling Allah Subhana Wa T'ala by a male pronoun any better or more approved? Does anyone have any evidence that the male pronouns such as 'He', 'His', 'Him', are accurate and desirable translations of the Quran when referring to Allah Subhana Wa T'ala? I personally cringe whenever I see Allah Subhana Wa T'ala genderized, and skip over any of them while reading translations of the Quran, and during recital while translating in my heart.   Insha' Allah, next time I get a chance I will ask the mufti about this, but what are your opinions on this? Do you think it makes any difference? Regards, QAK

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
momineqbal
12/06/01 at 01:56:01
[slm], I heard this from a speaker when asked this question, so I am reproducing this to the best of my ability inshaAllah: 'He' the english word is the literal translation of 'Huwa' the arabic word which can mean 'he' or 'it'. In the Quran Allah is referred to as Huwa because of following reasons: In arabic grammar there is no middle gender. The gender can be either male or female. The female gender is used (apart from indicating an actual female) infront of words that end with 'ta' (an example could be Makkah, which I think will be female gender, any arabic speaker correct me if I am wrong). Arabic word 'Allah' doesnt end with 'ta'. The female gender is also used when to describe a pair or twos. But 'Allah' can not be two! (Qul Hu Allahu Ahad!) I can not remember other reasons he gave. But that is why the word 'Huwa' is used in a grammatical sense for Allah (swt) as opposed to 'Hiya'(She). But that the use of 'Huwa' doesnt indicate gender is clearly understood. Allah has got no gender. In many languages such pronouns are applied to things which are not gender specific, e.g. in urdu a chair would be female gender, but has chair got any gender? So at least part of the reason for using 'Huwa' for Allah is this and Allah knows best. Wassalam

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
Kashif
12/06/01 at 05:55:44
assalaamu alaikum The pronoun 'He' used in reference to Allah doesn't indicate gender as others have pointed out. There was a fatwa about this on islam-qa.com that clarified this point but i can't find it now. You know, i can't think of any translation of the Qur'an in English that doesn't translate the pronoun in reference to Allah as 'He'. Kashif Wa Salaam
NS

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
akbalkhan
12/09/01 at 22:13:27
Yaghfirullahu lana wa lakum- I know that the scholars obviously have agreed that it is an o.k. translation, since it is used so widely, however, again, I feel it is horrendous, and gladly excuse myself from such a translation. I am not Arabic expert, shoot, I do not understand much about it, but I do know that is not what was intended. What I enjoy most about al-Islam is its departure from Judeaism/Christianity's fatherhood of Allah Subhana wa T'ala. Thanx for the response... QAK

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
Arsalan
12/11/01 at 01:41:39
[slm] How else would you translate the word "huwa" into English? Mind you, there is no word for "it" in the Arabic language*, because *everything* in Arabic has a gender (like French, Spanish, Urdu, etc).  Thus everything is either "huwa" (he) or "hiya" (she). * "haadha" is "this" (masculine)   "dhaalika" is "that" (masculine)   Do French and Spanish have an equivalent for "it"?  Hmmm.

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
akbalkhan
12/11/01 at 08:53:52
Akhi, Where is the imagination in that? No really, thank you for responding.... There are many circumstances in the translation where 'He', referring to Allah SWT is mistakenly typed like 'he.'  And other times when it is tranlated as 'that which' or 'whom.' My point is that there are limitations in the language and not the message, and so applying the fundamental intention of the message of not genderizing that which is above it, what is the harm in giving the pronoun 'it', to situations where Huwa refers to Allah SWT? Does anyone know in what gender the malaa'ikat are referred to when the Arabic word for 'We' is used? I guess at some point in the discussion about this topic, it may come down to perspective.  I am of the view point, after much undeputeed deliberation however, that the references of 'We' and 'Us' in the Quran are really references to the plurality of the command and carrying out of what is mentioned, e.g.: when it is revealed in the Quran, that 'We' destroyed this or that; in essence Allah SWT gave the command, and the malaa'ikat carried it out- hence, 'WE'.  I do not buy that the Quraish people and language carry the same medieval European colloquialisms in regards to a royal 'We'.  I mean its the Quran, not Chaucer or Shakespeare, however much commentaries of the Quran in the 20th century like to use lessons from the kafir literature to stress points. And for that matter, I also abhor the use of the term 'god' or 'God' in reference to Allah SWT as a name or attribute.  I understand its need and use when giving dawah, in order to crack open the hard shell of some of those who turn inwards when faced with Arabic at first, but between believers and in the literature, why the overabundance or equal consideration? Also, there is the naming of children and assuming new names when entering the fold.  The Quran specifically states to only call upon Allah SWT by those names such as the 99.  I know that putting Abd in front makes it o.k. but names like 'Alim, Mawlana, etc?  It is to rampant these days for people just skipping the abd, and calling someone Mr. Jaleel, and the like.  Its just irreverant. I kind of conider the above mentioned topics along the same lines in some regards.  Coming from a people with ancient roots in recent memory suggests that Arab culture and language like ancient American's have a formula and order that exists delicately only after much death and defiance in order to preserve it the way that it was originally related back through in tradition.  In today's day and time, and with its' people with many other concerns aside from ancient traditions' preservation as a way of life and believing, it seems all to easy to pass up the opportunity to raise these issues. Regards, QAK

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
se7en
12/13/01 at 02:36:38
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, [quote]I guess at some point in the discussion about this topic, it may come down to perspective.  I am of the view point, after much undeputeed deliberation however, that the references of 'We' and 'Us' in the Quran are really references to the plurality of the command and carrying out of what is mentioned, e.g.: when it is revealed in the Quran, that 'We' destroyed this or that; in essence Allah SWT gave the command, and the malaa'ikat carried it out- hence, 'WE'.  I do not buy that the Quraish people and language carry the same medieval European colloquialisms in regards to a royal 'We'.  I mean its the Quran, not Chaucer or Shakespeare, however much commentaries of the Quran in the 20th century like to use lessons from the kafir literature to stress points. [/quote] Huh, I have never heard this before.  This is not a European colloquialism but a construct of the language.  If you study Arabic formally, you learn that "inna" and "nahnu" are just part of the literary style used by Arabs in the same way the 'royal we' is used by Chaucer and Shakespeare. There are also verses in the Qur'an that say "We have created" or "We ordained" or "We forgive".  This doesn't really fit into the pattern you mentioned above, as these are not actions the angels take part in. [quote]And for that matter, I also abhor the use of the term 'god' or 'God' in reference to Allah SWT as a name or attribute.  I understand its need and use when giving dawah, in order to crack open the hard shell of some of those who turn inwards when faced with Arabic at first, but between believers and in the literature, why the overabundance or equal consideration?[/quote] It's interesting, because I notice that my imam does this quite a bit even in classes/khutbas that are for Muslim-only audiences. Of course he understands that using the English word "God" in place of "Allah" doesn't do the word justice.  But I think he's come to realize that translating *anything* from Arabic into English doesn't do the original meaning justice.  So he may be desensitized to it.. Also, even amongst believers, there are some who just aren't that comfortable with Arabic yet.  You gotta speak to people in a way that feeds into their hearts.. and using words that people are comfortable with, however inadequate, does that sometimes.   I agree with you, absolutely, that the translation we read really affects how we understand the Qur'an.  I remember reading Pickthall's translation and being completely shocked by how different it seemed from Yusuf Ali's translation, which I was used to.   Reading and comparing the different translations really gives you an appreciation for the *ocean* of meaning that the words of the Qur'an holds.  A translation only gives you a blurry, one dimensional view of what it really says.  It just makes me realize that in order to get a real taste for the Qur'an, you have to read it in it's original Arabic. That's one of my many goals (inshaAllah) :) wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum.

Re: 'He' May Not Approve
M.F.
12/13/01 at 07:34:48
It does refer to the royal "We".  It's more befitting to Allah to use it, and I believe He is the only one who can use it.  I don't think kings have the right to use it.  It's not a midieval thing either, the present king of Morocco who's about 40 and very immature uses it. It's disgusting to me when people use it, because I believe that Allah is the only one who is grand enough for it.
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