Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness

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Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/10/01 at 03:41:54

I'm not going to be visiting this site for a while. And I am actually not even going to be on the pc for a while. I wanted to Thank all of you who have been so kind to me. I pray all of you will be blessed for your kindness to me. I'm going through a rough time right now and have much confusion over many things. If you don't mind my asking, please keep me in your prayer. I have so much to figure and sort out.

Again thank you all for your kindness.

Cara

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Hania

12/10/01 at 05:36:19

Dear Cara

I enjoyed reading all of your posts. I will miss you, I hope you will return oneday when your burdens have been eased. You are in my prayers.

Hania.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
gift

12/10/01 at 05:57:21

[slm]

i'm really sorry to hear u are leaving :(as Hania says inshallah u will come back. i will keep u in my prayers inshallah - keep me in yours also

[wlm]
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Merimda

12/11/01 at 00:50:34

salam,

That's too bad..we enjoyed having you here..I hope everything works out insha-Allah.

salam &
best wishes
merimda

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Lisha

12/11/01 at 08:46:03

as-salaam alaikum,
she did say shez leavin 4 a while??? (not 4 eva:))

insh'allah we'll all hav our dear sis in our prayers. If allah wishes everythin will be fine:)

take care

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/13/01 at 15:18:45

Assalaamu-alaikum

Damn!!! I had so many things i wanted to ask her to get a non-muslim perspectiv on things, and honest opinion which i felt she would have given!!! Now she aint here no more!!!! Well inshallah she will return some day!

Are their any other non-muslims on this board? Lurkers? FBI agents, etc? If so please come out and show yourselves, i have many question to ask, i would LOVE to engage in debate with you guys.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/13/01 at 22:00:34

I'm back :) I just can't seem to stay away from this board. It actually is something I very much look forward to. I went and talked to a counsler. I am feeling better. Thank You all who posted a message.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
se7en

12/13/01 at 23:47:26

Cara I knew you couldn't live without me ;)

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/14/01 at 09:58:23

"I just can't seem to stay away from this board"

LOL!!!

Well what a long absense that was :)

OK many things i wanted to ask, but i'll take it a step at a time, and i hope other non-muslims will give thier opinions!!!

What i wanted to ask you Cara is what do you think of muslims in general, not just of these boards but in general? Do you go along with the media hype of any muslim practising thier faith is a fanatic and potential danger?

Also what do you make of mujaahideen (muslim fighters) who are fighting to defend thier homes, families and nations? Do you see them as terrorists? Do you think its fair that muslim armies are labelled as tarrorists such as the afghan Al-qaida, Chechen Mujaahideen, Kashmiri militants, phillipine Abu Sayef's army, etc?

Also do you believe bin laaden was behind the attacks? What do you think of muslims (including myself) who see bin laadin as a muslim hero for the way in which he has stood up to bullying and bombing from the USA? What do you think of the media propoganda in covering up the true number of US dead in this war? What do ya think of the true number of dead afghans? What do you think of the US sanctions on Iraq which have lead to hundreds of thousands of children dying?

Finally do you understand why muslims across the world hate america so much? Do you feel this hate is justifeid, or ill-judged? What do you think of the usa arming to the teeth the israeli's to bomb the palestinians into oblivion?

What do you REALLY think of muslim women who wear the hijab etc?

Now i hope i aint asked too much, i have much to ask, and i hope i aint offended you with any of the questions!! but if i have, then you have my permission to give me a BIG cyber slap!!!

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Ayla

12/14/01 at 11:47:16

OK - Mujaahid - I'm going to try to answer some of these questions. Please, if I end up giving any offence point it out to me, I want to have a conversation about all of these things and really encourage any oposing views. I mean no offence and will take none. Let's open our hearts to eachother.

[color=Green]What i wanted to ask you Cara is what do you think of muslims in general, not just of these boards but in general? Do you go along with the media hype of any muslim practising thier faith is a fanatic and potential danger?[/color]

In general I've found that the Muslims I have met have been good people who are trying to find thier path through life - just as I am. I think that anyone who is a fanatic is a potential danger, but that in no way means that Muslims are in general fanatics. I'd say all religions have a history of fanatacism which is unhealthy. The Spanish Inquisition, the Crusaids, and so many more were led by fanatics...

[color=Green]Also what do you make of mujaahideen (muslim fighters) who are fighting to defend thier homes, families and nations? Do you see them as terrorists?[/color]

Hmmmm this is a hard one. It is difficult to lump all groups who are fighting together. I think the circumstances and reasons behind all of the fighting in the world are too caried to make a generalized statement like this. Not to be too pedestrian about this but War is Bad, even when the reasons for fighting are justifyable.

[color=Green]Do you think its fair that muslim armies are labelled as tarrorists such as the afghan Al-qaida, Chechen Mujaahideen, Kashmiri militants, phillipine Abu Sayef's army, etc? [/color]

As I understand it the Al-qaida can't be confined to afghan. I am completely willing to believe that my information on this is incorrect but I believe that Al-qaida is a global network. I do think that they are terrorists. I do think that the goals behind their movement are to injur and cause pain to those with whom they don't agree. I don't believe that their lashing out is anything other than fear and hatred.

As for the Chechen Mujaahideen - I have no information on the situation there so I can't comment.

The Kashmiri militants are a misguided group - but so is their opposition. This situation is one that can't be boiled down to one side doing wrong. Are they terrorists - in the strictest sence yes - but so is the other side. I would love to hear anyones opionion on what is going on in Kashmir from the Muslim perspective. I know very little and mostly know from the Hindu side. Again - my information could be wrong but I do find it appauling that the militants in Kashmir have religious groups wearing clothing to designate themselves i.e. sikhs wearing orange turbans.

[color=Green]Also do you believe bin laaden was behind the attacks?[/color]

yes

[color=Green]What do you think of muslims (including myself) who see bin laadin as a muslim hero for the way in which he has stood up to bullying and bombing from the USA?[/color]

I find it disturbing that anyone with such hatred in their heart would be seen as a hero to anyone. I do understand the errors of America and the greivances against the USA. This country has failed the world community mainy times. Our politics are often racist and prejudicial and that needs to change. I do not see how finding joy in the deaths of thousands of Americans helps further that cause though - all it does is breed fear and resentment. Is it possible that at times America is a scapegoat for larger issues? Isn't it easier to hate and wage war than try to solve the injustices? I find bin laadin to be cowardly. I am sincerely interested in how you see him as a hero. Please again, no offence is intended here - I am completely 100% serious in saying I want to understand why/how you feel this way.

[color=Green]What do you think of the media propoganda in covering up the true number of US dead in this war? What do ya think of the true number of dead afghans?[/color]

I think there is no way for me to know the death toll on either side and no reliable source, from the US or abroad, in which to find this information. War is a terrible thing. But the reality is people die. Innocent people and warriors, it's terrible but that has been the nature of war for all time - I just pray it ends soon.

[color=Green]What do you think of the US sanctions on Iraq which have lead to hundreds of thousands of children dying?[/color]

I think it dispicable. Much like the sanctions on Cuba. I don't however, have any alternative to offer to ensure that the USs demands are met. And from Iraq - it seems like the demands (allowing inspecition of Nuclear plants and millitary installments) is reasonable. In the history of the US we have made similar requirements of the Germans and Japanese - both of which are not permitted - by UN law - to have an offencive military. I just point this out because it is not the US/UN targeting Iraq in this way.

I would like to point out here a hypocracy that is often made. If a country like Iraq is so dependent on the trade or the US/UN why would they want us destroyed? What would come of our system falling other than a world wide "sanction" like situation? If the goods and aid of the US is so in demand and the withdraw or that aid is considered a bad thing, why fight to rid the world of those who are giving that aid?

[color=Green]Finally do you understand why muslims across the world hate america so much?[/color]

yes - at least I think so

[color=Green]Do you feel this hate is justifeid, or ill-judged?[/color]

Ill-defined and Ill-represented would be better. I understand the hatred. I do think that a lot of the hate is not the making of the US though. Isn't it really a hate of the West and of our version of consumerism/capitalism and post-renaissance superiority-complex? I wonder if at times it is a hatred of the different then necessarily a hatred of "America"

[color=Green]What do you think of the usa arming to the teeth the israeli's to bomb the palestinians into oblivion?[/color]

I think this is a MUCH bigger question that should maybe go in another post. I think Israel and Palestine are both to blame for all of this. I think suicide bombings are wrong - but even more so are Israeli fighter jets dropping bombs on villages. I think our role in this is questionable and don't believe I know everything that's going on.

[color=Green]What do you REALLY think of muslim women who wear the hijab etc? [/color]

I think it's a beautiful expression of faith. I think that anything that strengthens your personal relationship with god should be valued and respected. I think that hijab, etc. is something which a woman must negotiate for herself and that the criminalization of dress is wrong.

[color=Green]Now i hope i aint asked too much, i have much to ask, and i hope i aint offended you with any of the questions!! [/color]

I think this is healthy and great - thank you for asking so much! I would love to hear your own responces to all of your questions as well, to hear an honest perspective. Please I do not mean any offence. Please do not take any and know that my intention is pure and good and that my love of god and humankind includes all faiths.

Now I have a few questions:
What would the Muslim would want the outcome of all this?
What would make the Arab world happy?
How could the conflict with America be ended? Meaning what would be an acceptable outcome - which in all honesty - would be possible for both parties.
Why is there so much hatred of jews? It didn't used to be this way if I understand my history correctly. Is it because of Israel? Is it a hatred of Israelis or all Jews? How is it possible that a beautiful and humanitarian religion like Islam is used to justify such hate?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Feel free to send me a message if you wouldn't like it to be posted here. Thank you.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/15/01 at 07:38:11

Kara how many different ways do you spell your name?

<Please, if I end up giving any offence point it out to me>

I shall, but i will not ask of you to tone it down etc because that will get us knowhere, we really need to know EXACTLY what each other is thinking, no political correctness please, just the blatant truth!

That means this could get heated, but mods please dont lock the thread. Our intention is not to get abusive, but to find out why we all feel the way we do.

<It is difficult to lump all groups who are fighting together. I think the circumstances and reasons behind all of the fighting in the world are too caried to make a generalized statement like this. Not to be too pedestrian about this but War is Bad, even when the reasons for fighting are justifyable.>

So do you feel its OK for muslims to label any western armies engaged in battle as terrorists? (the way the west descreibes all warrior muslims as terrorirst)?

<As I understand it the Al-qaida can't be confined to afghan.>

No you are right. But they are not a terrorist organistation in the way the US makes out. Often they train, and finance muslim armies fighting illegal invasion and occupation, such as in chechnya, Indonesia, Kashmir, to name but a few. I see them as freedom fighters. YES their maybe groups who abuse this finance and use it to commit terrorist acts, as the US even admits their is no central command, hence many different units act independandtly. I just dont believe Al-Qaida has a fundamental rule to kill innocent people.



Fear no, hatred, yes, hatred that thier people, the muslims have been oppresed, murdered raped etc. In bosnia the US backed UN placed arms sacntions on the muslims, which lead to them being butchered, they placed an embargo on the Kosovan muslims, which had the same savage consequences. The Al-qaida decided enough was enough, and started training these people in guerilla warfare so they could fight back without relying on heavy weapons which the UN was denyong them, preventing them from defending thier own people.

<As for the Chechen Mujaahideen - I have no information on the situation there so I can't comment.>

Basically its like this. The russian KBG(secret police) bombed several moscow flats and blamed the chechens (the chehcens denied it from the start). This news of the inside bombings was even admitted by russian intelligence, and was even witnessed by civilians who saw a bomb being planted by russians, and managed to get the bomb defused by special police. The russians though invaded chencya, flattening the country. Osama bin Laadin then sent his military chiefs to trian the chenchens to fight back to repulse russian invasion. Is this right or wrong> Bin Laadin trained the chechns to drive out the brutal invading army which has killed so many of its people. Did he do an evil thing in that? Or was that a good thing. The muslim world see's it as good, as do many non-muslims i have spoken to.

<The Kashmiri militants are a misguided group>

No they are not. They are fighting an illegal occupation by indian troops. 75% of kashmir are muslims, and want to be independant of india, yet the indians occupy this land illegally, killing over 70'000 muslims since 1989. Now dont you think the Kashmiri militants have a right to fight and defend thier people?

<Are they terrorists - in the strictest sence yes>

How can you that? If someone came intyo your house, raped your mother, killed your father and husband, and your sons fought back, how would you feel if someone outside called your sons terrorist for fighting back? You would be outraged. So are we muslims.

[color=Green]Also do you believe bin laaden was behind the attacks?[/color]

yes

Based on what? The US saying so? If the US were so confident he was guilty, why didnt they show evidence to the taleban who said they would hand him over to a muslim country if the evidence WAS conclusive? Also was this the SAME evidence that legal experts unanimously declared that the case would be thrown out of court because the evidence was so weak?

Why did the US blatantly REFUSE to hand over evidence, and REFUSE to have him extradited to a neutral country? Didnt that hit you as being just a bit suspicious? Also bin laadin has denied it over and over!!!

[color=Green]What do you think of muslims (including myself) who see bin laadin as a muslim hero for the way in which he has stood up to bullying and bombing from the USA?[/color]



I i mentioned earlier, bin laadin has helped train and finance muslims who are fighting oppression, and that is why he is seen as a hero. In fact have you ever seen any of his tapes? Get your hand on some, and i assure you, any hate you have for him will start to waver because just listening to him speak, you know this man is not evil, and in fact is a freedom fighter and many people who suspected him, were won over after watcing his videos. THAT is why the USA dont want the US media broadcasting any of his genuine tapes, because of the fear that the hate america has for him might start to crumble when you see what is really the make up of this man.

<Is it possible that at times America is a scapegoat for larger issues?>

No. Bombing the many countries it has, all the sanctions they have on so many poor countries means they have ruined and killed many. They are not scapegoats. They are the cuase of much of the worlds troubles. Anyone who dont do as the US says, the US bomb. Any government who the US cannot control, the oppress or overthrow (taleban, Iraq, Cuba, China). America wants it all its own way, why can't you americans see this?



WHy? Because he is hiding as he has thousands of men after him to get the $25 million dollar reward?

Is that cowardly? If so, then isnt G W Bush cowardly for going into hiding after the WTC attacks?



Because he has strived to help the muslims who are suffering from oppression to fight back and liberate thier lands for the oppressors, and these places include Bosnia, Kosova, Albania, Kashmir, CVhechnya, Indonesia, Lebanon, Palestine, Saudi.

Kara the Muslims are outraged at 5'000 US troops in Saudi. Its hard, if not impossible for you to understand this. But let me explain it this way. The US are hated in arabia, yet they guard our holy sites.

In the US the Taleban is hated, now how would you feel if the Taleban had 5'000 solderis gaurding the White House? You would be outraged. That is how the muslims feel about a hated army guarding our sites!



Well i have fairly accurate sources, azzam.co.uk etc. Also the lies of the US media in all this is absolutely pathetic. The taleban, al-qaida are one of the feircist and most awesome fighting forces in the world, they defeated the russians, now do you believe that only 1 american solderi has so far died in combat agaist these feirce fighters? Its pathetic to think americans are so misguided and so easily led by thier media!!!

<War is a terrible thing. But the reality is people die.>

Well americans have no problem with that, as long as its not their own.

<Innocent people and warriors>

Again as long as its not americans, you have no problems.



WHAT!!! The arrogance of that comment is beyond belief! Who who do the US think they are that everyonme must meet their demands or else? What right has the USA got to tell others what they can, cannot do?

<And from Iraq - it seems like the demands (allowing inspecition of Nuclear plants and millitary installments) is reasonable.>

Really? So i take it the americans will have NO problem having Iraqi intelligence officers inspecting America's top secret military installations? No, the USA would NEVER allow such a thing! Why then should ANYONE allow the USA to inspect others military secrets! "oo oo but sadaam is evil, he kills many", yes thats right, he does, but it a lot less then the number of people the USA have killed in the last 10 years!!!

<In the history of the US we have made similar requirements of the Germans and Japanese - both of which are not permitted - by UN law - to have an offencive military.>

UN law? Well why dont UN law apply to Israel? Israel has violatedALL UN resolutions, yet they dont get punished!!! Iraq violates one, and 500'000 of their children are murdered by US sanctions! Are you starting to se now the reality of why america is such a hypocritcal and evil system, which has one rule for one, another rule for others?



I think it is blatantly obvious the US backed UN in targeting Iraq.



Iraq is NOT dependant on the USA, knowone is, although America loves to think otherwise!!! World trade does not centre around the USA. Iraq would trade with Europe, Russia, the middle east, africa, asia, far east, carribean, south america, the list is endless!!! The world does not depend on america for trade!!!

And people do not want the USA destroyed. They only say this out of hate and angre for the suffering and misery the USA has caused these people. If the USA agreed NOT to influence, didtate or control anyone else, the USA would have few if any enemies!

<What would come of our system falling other than a world wide "sanction" like situation?>

Oh come On Cara,(i hope i dont sound rude, but these comments are extremely ill founded and i really must say you have been seriously brainwashed by the media if you believe this)! Their would be no sanction, the world would infact be more free, without the influence and self interest of the USA getting in the way of everyone else!

<If the goods and aid of the US is so in demand and the withdraw or that aid is considered a bad thing, why fight to rid the world of those who are giving that aid?>

(sigh) Cara i am really saddened by your views. Do you really think the world depends on aid from the USA? Dont you realis that most of the world gives aid to others? The only difference is that the USA prints its name on all the aid just so that people can see its the USA giving it, and they have camera's thier to film it so that the americans back home can sit in thier cosy homes and think "arnt we so kind, look at all those bags of weat coming from the usa"!

Many others give aid, its just that we dont have camera's filming, and we dont print our logos all over it!

Did you know, a small muslim organistan UWT, sent a convoy from pakistan of 30 lorries of aid? Did you know pakistan has recently given about 150 million tons of aid to afghanistan? How often does CNN mention this?

<Ill-defined and Ill-represented would be better. I understand the hatred. I do think that a lot of the hate is not the making of the US though.>

I think you'll find it is. You go and ask an iraqi mother, who's child has just died because it did not get basic medicines because USA sanctions prevent them coming in (on the grounds that it could be used for bio weapons), ask her why she hates america. Ask a palestinian whose baby has been shot through the head with US supplied weapons. Ask a palestinian whose home has been flattened by a US made and supplied Apachie choppper. As an Afghan mother whose entire family has been killed by a stray US bomb landing on thier home why she hates the USA.

<Isn't it really a hate of the West and of our version of consumerism/capitalism and post-renaissance superiority-complex?>

Not at all. You see the muslim lands and nations have the techonlogy of the USA, in fact saudi has one of the best transport systems in the world, as does the UAE, Jordan, Dubai, Kuwait, Eqypt and most other Guklf states! They are rich, they have a better health system than the UK, in fact even Iraq HAD a better health system then the UK, until sanctions crippled it! Believe me we are not jealous or envoius of the wetss techonology because we have much of that.

The hate of the USA is caused by the USA killing and murdering, and crippling our people and nations. For you to turn around and basically say "you hate us because we have better techonology" s an insult, by the issue is not who has what, but what YOUR nation is doing to our people. And we simply will not put up with it! We will fight back.

In fact i would LOVE to see the USA attack other countries, because it will backfire on them, they will make even more enemies, and the rest of the neutral world will then see their true agenda, and this phony coalition on terror will crumble and the USA will all of a sudden find its self in a new veitnam situation.

<Now I have a few questions:
<What would the Muslim would want the outcome of all this?
What would make the Arab world happy?>

SImple, their are several demands. And anything short will not be accepted.

1) Remove ALL US troops from the arabian panisula.

2) Stop supporting dictators who YOU have placed to run OUR countries so that they do as you tell them.

3) Lift ALL sanctions agianst the muslim countries.

4) Remove ALL intelligence officials, CIA etc from our lands.

5) Remove ALL military support for Israel, and stop funding the terrorist jewish country.

6) Ensure Areil Sharon is handed over to the Hague for trial for war crimes.

7) This is not likely to happen, but it would be world justice, Bush should be put on trial for crimes against humanity, the murder of thousands of afghans, the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. Unless this happens. This may seem unreasonable to you, but we have ample proof of his guilt. If you want bin laadin, give us Bush. Bin Laadin MAY have killed your People, Bush DEFINATELY has killed many more of ours. If you want justice, so do we.

<Why is there so much hatred of jews?>

Because the jews are murdering palestinians, they control the media in the US and UK, thats why the jews never have much anti jewish stuff on the tv, that is why we never REALLY see whats happening in Palestine, thats why religous jewish fanatics are called Ultra-orthodox jews, yet muslims are called fundamentalists and terrorists.

<It didn't used to be this way if I understand my history correctly. Is it because of Israel?>

Yes, much is caused by this.

<Is it a hatred of Israelis or all Jews?>

Mostly israeli's, but when the jews control the media, and hide the suffering of our people and label those of our's who try and fight for justice and freedom as terrorists, its ard NOT to hate jews.

<How is it possible that a beautiful and humanitarian religion like Islam is used to justify such hate?>

Well when muslims all over the world are being massacred, killed, distated to, controlled, abused, raped, tortured, ridiculed, its hard NOT to feel hate.

<Feel free to send me a message if you wouldn't like it to be posted here.>

Well it did cross my mind, but then i thought its better that this was done in open because their may be other americans reading this and i feel they have a right to know why thier nation is hated so much, and this coming from real muslims, not apologists, or CNN analysts, but real people.

I hope i didnt offend too much, i know i must have offended you, but i had no other way to say what i felt, i apologise for the oofence, but some of these things must be said, as they are the basis of much of the trouble, and for them to be resolved, they MUST be discussed, if they cause offence, we gota take it, and continue debating.

I have been really annoyed at americans calling other americans bin-laadin supporters if they speak out against the war, or speak out against the fake tapes etc. Its seems that the media is telling the americans "you MUST follow us no matter what, be sheep, do as we say, believe what we, just dont question anything, because if you do, you are one of them, or are bin laadin supporter."

Peace

Salaam
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
se7en

12/14/01 at 20:12:53

bismillah

Ayla, thanks for your responses.. they were really interesting to read. I'm going to try to answer some of the questions you have..

[quote]What would the Muslim would want the outcome of all this? [/quote]

I think, to answer this question, you have to understand how the Muslim understands all that's going on right now. I don't think the average Muslim, or anyone who's looking at the situation intelligently, can say that America's policies, domestic and abroad, in response to the September 11th attacks are justified and reasonable.

Fisk puts it beautifully when he says: "We are being asked to support a war whose aims appear to be as misleading as they are secretive".

One thing I can tell you for sure is that this war is *not* a war on terror or on the nefarious al-Qaeda network. There is more going on here than the media's rhetoric about America "fighting back" against those who "hate our freedom". The actions of the United States government so far (and those most likely in the coming days) bear witness to this.

Two weeks after September 11th, Fisk predicted that this would be just the beginning of a United States attack that would come to include Iraq, Syria, Iran, an intensification of the oppression of the Palestinian people and the taking out of the Lebanese Hezbollah.

How was he able to predict this? Think about it. It has nothing to do with a terrorist network and *everything* to do with what would be in the best interest of the United States. It is truly shameful that the act of terror on September 11th is being used as a license for the United States government to engage in actions that would, at any other time, be under heavy scrutiny and criticism by people with any sense of right and wrong.

I think Muslims are wondering how far the United States government is going to take this. What I can tell you is that.. people who live in extreme circumstances are going to act out in extreme ways. That has very little to do with religion and everything to do with the nature of human beings. If you oppress people, people will come to hate you. That's just the way it is.

I want to clarify that I don't hate America. I don't. I hate American foreign policy, I hate the wrong it's done, the history of oppression and murder it has that continues til the modern day. But I have hope that we as a people will come to realize what's going on and stand up against it; prevent our government from committing these deeds and truly making it one that represents the people and does things in *their* interest and for their good.

[quote]What would make the Arab world happy?[/quote]

In all honestly, this is not a difficult question. I'm not Arab, and I can tell you the answer :)

The Arab people want freedom. The freedom to practice their religion as they see fit; the freedom to speak out against policies and ideas they disagree with without being silenced by a government that does not want to be questioned and which, in some cases, remains in power though corrupt and injust in large part due to the United States. They want the same things *we* want - a government that truly represents the people, acts in their best interest, and does not suppress people's ideas.

This is one of the reasons I think "they hate our freedom" is such a joke. Most people who have grievances with the United States have them because the US has in some way prevented them from having the freedom that we here enjoy.

And in the case of Palestine.. they want the freedom to *live*. To go about their lives without being treated like garbage, without their homes being bulldozed or their children being blown up on their way to school. An end to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, maintained in large part by the United States, would also make Arabs, and all Muslims, and anyone with a sense of justice, happy. I'll get into this more below.

[quote]How could the conflict with America be ended? Meaning what would be an acceptable outcome - which in all honesty - would be possible for both parties.[/quote]

People have legitimate grievances with the United States, and when these things are rectified, then conflict will be resolved.

This in no way means I think that the killing of innocent people is right because there are grievances. But if we're asking about the root causes of these conflicts, let's look at what they really are, and not give cop out answers like "they hate out freedom".

What are these grievances? The killing of innocent thousands in Iraq due to sanctions, said to be intended to take out Saddam but aren't doing anything of the sort. The continued support of Israel, a regime that everyday oppresses and terrorizes the Palestinian people. The support of the ruling parties in Saudi, Bahrain, Jordan etc, that oppress and suppress the people who criticize the government.

I can tell you without a doubt that if the United States government stops oppressing people in this manner, conflict will stop. And in that same vein, I can tell you without a doubt that if the United States government continues with the policies it is enacting, such conflict will continue.

It is a vicious cycle of violence that will continue until justice prevails.

[quote]Why is there so much hatred of jews? It didn't used to be this way if I understand my history correctly. Is it because of Israel? Is it a hatred of Israelis or all Jews? [/quote]

If you look historically there is no anti-Jewish (or anti-any faith) sentiment in Islam. In truth we are from the same father, Abraham, peace be upon him, and we believe in the same line of prophethood, the same basic teachings. No true Muslim harbors hate in their heart for someone who believes in God and seeks to please Him in the way they see fit. And we are taught not to hate people, but to hate the wrong they do - hatred of the *act*, not the individual.

I think the hatred stems from Israel, and it's policies towards the Palestinian people. It is not a "conflict" as the media here puts it, implying that it's two groups duking it out over the same land; but it is an occupation by brute force, perpetrated by an oppressive regime, that is continuing even today.

I ask you to please, visit *any* international human rights organization and see what Israeli occupation has done to the Palestinian people, read about the legitimized apartheid that the Palestinians endure, the continuous disregard for their value as a people and their dignity as human beings, the gross violation of basic human rights and international law.

Check out the following links:
[*] [url=http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countries/israel/occupied+territories?OpenView&Start=1&Count=30&Expandall]Amnesty International[/url]
[*] [url=http://hrw.org/mideast/index.php]Human Rights Watch[/url]
[*] [url=http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/e/home/foreign/hupol/4gc.html#0009]Geneva Convention censuring Israel for violation of human rights[/url]
[*] [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=5803]Excerpts from UN Charter[/url]

I am anti-racism, I am anti-oppression, and therefore I am anti-zionist. It has nothing to do with Jews, Judaism or anti-semitism.

How does the United States fit into the picture? On Wednesday the senate overwhelmingly passed the fiscal year 2002 Foreign Operations Appropriations bill by a vote of 96-2. It contains $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid for Israel. You can read more on this [url=http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm]here[/url].

[quote] How is it possible that a beautiful and humanitarian religion like Islam is used to justify such hate?[/quote]

Human beings have the tendency to use *anything* to justify their actions, thoughts, and feelings, and such is the case even with something as pure and beautiful as Islam.

<deep breath>

Let me know your thoughts on all this. I haven't gotten a chance to read through everything in this thread, so I apologize if I have not answered your questions properly or have repeated something already said.

take care :)

peace
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
bhaloo

12/15/01 at 00:57:00

slm

Se7en did a good job of explaining things, alhumdullilah. The only thing Muslims want in the world is peace. We don't want the US interfering in the lives of Muslims, putting corrupt dictators into power of Muslim countries, and we don't want the US committing terrorist acts against civillians (such as the hundreds of thousands of civillians killed in Iraq).

Take a look at these stats:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taliban_info/message/20
A review of Washington's record of "nation-building" in
the Muslim world - i.e., overthrowing unfriendly
governments and replacing them with compliant ones:

Syria, 1948 - The U.S. overthrows the regime; Syria
turns anti-U.S.

Iran, 1954 - The U.S. overthrows nationalist
Mossadegh, puts the shah in power.
Result: Ayatollah Khomeini's 1979 Islamic revolution.

Egypt, 1955 - The U.S. tried to kill nationalist Gamal
Abdel Nasser. He turns to the Soviets.

Iraq, 1958 - The U.S. puts Col. Kassem in power. He
turns into an anti-American lunatic.

Indonesia, 1967 - The U.S. overthrows Sukarno. The
army and mobs then kill 500,000 Sukarno supporters.

Libya, 1969 - The U.S. helps a young officer, Moammar
Khadafy, seize power in Libya, then tries to kill him
in 1986.

Iraq, 1975 - The U.S. helps young Saddam Hussein seize
power. In 1979, the U.S. encourages Saddam to invade
Iran in an effort to crush Iran's Islamic revolution.
Some 700,000 die in the war.

Lebanon, 1983 - U.S. forces intervene in the civil war
to prop up the Christian government, 240 U.S. Marines
die.

Kuwait/Iraq, 1991 - The U.S. goes to war against
former ally Saddam, but keeps him in power.

Somalia, 1992 - The U.S. intervenes in a civil war,
loses men and flees.

Iraq, 1996 - A U.S. attempt to create a Kurd
mini-state collapses under Iraqi attack. CIA agents
run for their lives.

;===========================================

Also see:

Why America Is So Blind
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taliban_info/message/90

Paying the Price
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taliban_info/message/98

Hidden Agenda Behind the War on Terror
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taliban_info/message/145

NS
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/15/01 at 21:12:03

Mujaahid
*************************************************************
Well what a long absense that was
*************************************************************

Smarty pants :-D

My goodness you sure ask a lot of questions :) So here goes

What do I think of Muslims? Media hype?

First of all I think the media in most all countries is a joke. I don't believe all I hear and read.

Muslims, hmmm well in general I think they are like any other religon/belief. Correct me if I am wrong but Muslim = belief in Islam but can be from any culture. Muslims are like anyone else, some good and kind and true and some middle of the road and some fanatical and some down right evil.

Now if you were to ask me about Middle Eastern Muslims here is my opinion. I find them (for the most past, not 100%)
To be very loyal people. Loyal to beliefs and family and friends. They seem to think of death a little differently in a way where most value life and I find Muslims to value death as much and sometime even more than life. They appear to me to be VERY passionate people. Passionate of their beliefs, family, homes, work, countries, etc. Of all different cultures I find them to be in the top 50 % of people semi-easily irritated and a little hot headed if you don't agree with them. But the ones I have gotten to know, I have learned even if they argue and get loud and hot they still like you after the conversation as they seem to LOVE a good debate. I mean this very respectfully. It's kind of cute. They can fuss and argue and get loud and after it is all over shake your hand, smile and still be your friend the next day. Potiential danger... No more than any other culture. So that is my opinion. OH AND More loyal to their beliefs and not as materialistic as others.

Thats my opinion there.

As for Muslim fighters: I believe EVERYONE has the right to defend their home, families and such. I don't believe WHOEVER should of planned an attack on the WTC, etc and I don't believe the US should of gone to Afganistan.

If asked how I would of done things if I were Pres. First of all I would of (even before this happened) required a background check of all entering my country. Folks on studant visa's, well I would require every school accepting their money both public and private to submit a monthly attendance report. And it be required if anyone on a student visa missed more than three days of school they be visited by an Immigration rep. Students would also be reguired to submit proof of where they are staying. That takes all of a few minutes a quarter. Monthly reports from schools a few minutes a month.

I would have trained and liscensed bounty hunters who the day a visa expired were out looking for your butt. (Is it ok to say butt in here?) To take you into custody and take you to the nearest airport and put you personally on the plane. NO investigation, no rights, go back home and file for another visa. PERIOD.

But I would of done this before WTC and if after, well I would shut the boarders and do all the above. Trade and oil... to bad. We in the US need to be more independant. We have plenty of resources here. To many people getting to greedy. Then I would ask the UN or whatever was avail that if the accused was not turned in within a week for all countries to shun that government. If they cannot feed their own people that is not my problem. They are feeding the accused then they can feed the kids. I am only responsable for my actions not anothers reaction. WOW I hope I'm not offending anyone.

NEXT: Bin Laden, I see him as a flat out coward. He appears to be more concerned about his own safety than the safety of those who gave him a home all these years. Who opened their country to him. If people were getting killed cause I was wanted I couldn't stand by and let that happen. I would say, "Please stop the bombing, here I am."
Is he guilty? I don't know I have not seen the evidence. But if he knew about it and didn't warn anyone and condoned it he is just as guilty in my book. I always taught my sons, HIDING the truth IS THE SAME as lying about it. and if you stand by while someone is getting hurt you allowed it to happen. That is just as bad.

US santions and Iraq. I'm not sure how to address this. I believe nations should stick together like the UN or simular. To be making chemical and Bio weapons and on top of it to use it on your own people even is horrible. I believe at this point if a country doesn't comply with a basic code of ethics they should be shunned and not helped in any way.

If you have money for Bio and Chem weapons then you have enough money to feed your own people. Would you give your money and suppies and help to a man who had money enough to buy smokes and alcohol but never bought food for his family? I wouldn't. I would tell the family if they left and did not contribute to this man I would buy their food and needs.

Iareal and Palistinians? I think they should both grow up and share that land half and half. To the seed of Abraham??? Was not Ismeal and Issac both HIS SEED? Do any of you ever feel like just putting some of these folks over your lap and spanking the tar out of them as one would a very naughty child? :) I do.

Women who wear hijab? I think it is cool and shows modesty and shows respect for their beliefs and families (parents and husbands)
I think it should be opitional and between a woman and her family and all others should mind their own business. Even I, as a woman seem to feel more respect toward a woman wearing one. I saw a woman just two days ago at the hosp wearing one. I wanted to stop and talk to her, tell her hi and I didn't take the time. I feel ashamed about that and though of it after I left.

At this point it is not for me But I think women who dress suggestively with short shirts, dresses and such, halter tops and all are show offs and have no respect for themselves or others. I makes me REALLY REALLY angry when a woman hardly dresses and is flaunting herself in front of my sons and husband. I actually feel like walking up to her and telling her she is rude and needs to get some clothes on. And I am so old fashioned I think two piece bathing suits should be outlawed.

Did I miss anything? Hatred, there is no excuse for hatred and war and such. If we all followed Gods Law there would be no killing and hatred. We all came from Adam and Eve. So based on that all are my brothers and sisters. I may not like ALL or agree with my brothers and sisters, but I am not going to kill them or hurt them.

One last thing, I kind of like the idea of an international court myself. Say three people from each country. (With atleast one of the three being a common person.) If a warrent is given then a country harboring an accused is ordered to turn him over. If they don't abide then shun them. Nothing goes in the country nothing comes out.

Hope I haven't offended anyone. These are just my opinions and I was asked. If I can wave a magic wand all would bow down and worship and praise God and ask his forgiveness then shake hands with their neighbors and just Love and respect and care for one another. But I don't have a magic wand.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/15/01 at 21:21:20

I need to proof read my post better. What I meant to say was I don't agree with the WTC thing and I don't agree with the Afganistan thing. I wish there was a different way of handling it.

Gosh I messed that sentence up.

If Bin Laden is responsable and he did it cause he didn't like US policy, well I don't like all my neighbors policies but I can't just go flying a plane into their home.

GEEEE Mujaahid you got me to thinking so much and so hard MY BRIAN HURTS. :)

I don't agree with hatred and killing and war but I also don't think you can let someone get away with stuff. Cause if you did then that would be like saying the police shouldn't go after criminals.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I want a magic wand. I want everyone to grow up and stop acting stupid and mean and hateful. I want people to share and be loving and caring and kind.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/15/01 at 21:25:24

Oh and Mujaahid I only have one name... Cara and my post name is caraj.

Kara is a different person and she is Ayla in posts.

Two different people

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/16/01 at 14:51:49

Salaam Cara J

I wanna mention a couple of things.

1) The visa thing, i dont agree on kicking people out, and monitoring then to that extent, i.e 3 days missed at college, and immigration turn up. It should be more like 1 week of, and you get a call from uni, like here in england.

As for the bounty hunters, well if the peoples visa runs out, why can't they be given a period to reapply while stil in the USA? I think the US's behaviour (locking up 11'000 muslims since sept 11th without NO evidence) is simply disgusting, as is claiming the true figure is only 1'000. Imagine if your son, probably a christian, was arrested in saudi, locked up for NO reason other than being a foreiner. You would be outraged, simply outraged. Thats whats happening in the US. Many innocent muslims are being locked up, and do you know what then happens in prison? These people are beaten up, gang raped, treated like dirt. What do you think they will do when they are eventually released? Turn around and say "oo thank you for the wonderful treatment, its opened my eyes, and even though i done nothing wrong, i am thankful for beoing locked away fopr nothing and being beaten and raped".

No, it's more likely he will be in a blind rage and carry out attackas on innocent americans. And who is to blame? him? No sorry, but i would not blame someone who had been treated like that for taking revenge.

OK now point (2). You say if a nation does not do as the US says, then shun it, right? So if it means 500'000 innocent children dying because of this, to you its basically "so what, it aint my problem, they should do as we ask"? Right?

Well so i guess with that said, the muslims would be justified in saying "we aint hadning over ANY suspect. So what if 3'000 of your people died, you have no problem killing 500'000 of our innocents, why should we care if 3'000 or your innocent die. Tough USA, what goes round comes round".

Is that how the US really wants it?

Is that what you really want? Do YOU as american have any probnlem with being responsible for supporting the actions which have lead to half a million Iraqi children dying? If yes, would you feel comfortable, and proud to say this to an iraqi mother who has lost all her children due to sanctions?

Also do you not realise, that the 500'000 deaths will not go unpunished? The people who have suffered WILL take revenge. And they have EVERY right to do so. YOUR nation has ruined so many nations, killed so many, murdered so many, that these people have a RIGHT to get you back. How do you feel about that?

And why SHOULDNT Iraq or ANYONE build nastey weapons? The USA have PLENTY, and they use its threat to bully people to do as they say. In fact the USA are the ONLY nations on earth to have EVER used an atomic/nuclear weapon. ow does that feel? YOUR nation is the only one to have used nuclear weapons!!! The only reason why the US are against Saddam having these weapons is NOT because they US are concerened about him using it on his own people, after all the USA have NO problems causing the deaths of at least 500'000 iraqi children, the real reason is the USA does not want any unfreindly nation to have the power and might to stand up to the US threats. THAT is what the US is trying to get, trying to have the right to force and bully everyone to do as they say.

EVERY nation has a RIGHT to have weapons of mass destruction, because only then will the USA STOP behaving in the barbaric and MURDEROUS ways it currently is. I am looking forward to a time, which WILL come, when the USA will say

USA: Do as we say or else

Others: Or else what?

USA: we launch attacks against you

Others: Really? Well attack if you want, we have the means to fight back, we have technology to blow out the sky your B1's, and B52's, and sink your battle ships, and stop your cruise missiles!"

THAT Cara will be a time when the USA no longer bullies anyone, because a bully dont attack when the ir is a major risk it will end up beaten in war. The USA is the worlds bully, a thug and a heartless murderer, if you think that is unfair, then go and ask the victims of the ONLY nuclear attacks the world has ever seen, go and ask the iraqi families, go and speak to the ruined afghans, go and ask the Koreans, libyans, Cubans who have been crippled because of sanctions. Cara i apologise if this sounds rude, but your words were full or arrogance, arrogance that you think that you, as the USA have a right to do whatever you like to however you like no matter what the consequences, even if that means killing hundreds of thousands.

I find it rather sad that you feel that way.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Saleema

12/16/01 at 16:25:00

but your words were full or arrogance, arrogance that you think that you, as the USA have a right to do whatever you like to however you like no matter what the consequences, even if that means killing hundreds of thousands.

Putting words in her mouth are you?

Really, i think you would do well with a tabloid magazine.

:)

[wlm]

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/16/01 at 16:37:26

Hey you don't sound rude you are expressing your opinion. Nice things about opinions... they are not wrong or right they are what one feels and believes.

Ok well about the three days, one week is cool. I am not an unreasonable person.

Time to renew. NO WAY, if your drivers lisc expires and you get pulled over the officer is still going to give you a ticket. You know when it expires be it drivers lisc, insurance, rent or visa and you make plans ahead of time to renew, not after it is expired. Waiting till it expires in my opinion is irresponsable and shows lack of respect for the system.

My sons had a curfew growing up. Even at 18 cause one was still living at home and in school. My sons were always taught, if you call BEFORE curfew 9 out of 10 times I will exptend unless there is a reason not to. BUT you must call before curfew expires NOT after. I told them even if they called 5 minutes before curfew expired that was ok too as long as they had enough time to get home in case I said no. But call 1 minute after??? Your punished. PERIOD

Bounty hunter type, well I had a friend who came to visit my from England a couple months back. All she did was fill out a paper. They really had no way of knowing if she really knew me or if she was really staying with me. If one is irresponsable to renew something before it expires then someone needs to go make them do what they are suppose to do which is leave. If your child doesn't do something she or he is suppose to then you make them do it. I didn't mean bounty hunter go get um and shoot em, I just mean someone like a bounty hunter who goes and gets you and puts you on a plane.

Arrogance??????? Me??????? I am always saying I do not wish to offend and "YOU" asked my opinion. If you don't want the answer don't ask the question. I am not saying the US is perfect. I am not saying everyone should do as the US wishes. I said "countries" and I said a "basic code of ethics"

I didn't say if a country doesn't do as the US says. I believe I said if "a" country doesn't abid my a "simple standard and code of ethics."

Santions??? It is up to each country if they wish to do so.

Lastly, I am not a cold and heartless person but I still believe if you have money to get chem and bio weapons you have money to feed your people. End of subject. So unless there is something I am not aware of and there very well may be. Why did Iraq government chose to use their resources for weapons and not food for its people? Again I don't know everything and I was busy raising two sons on my own for 14 years and hardly ever read a paper of watched the news. I didn't keep up on politics and I admit this. My opinions are based on what little I do know. But in raising two sons I have learned two seperate people look at the same situation differently.

Am I wrong but didn't Kuiwat ask for our help? Didn't Saudi help the US to help kuiwat ( I know I am not spelling that right)

I don't think what you heard from me was arrogance, just motherly type disapline.

I take no offense by you, I don't feel you are rude. You are a human being with a heart and a brain and can voice your opinion even if you do not agree. I am only one person, I can't save the world, but I will do what I can, but if a family is starving and in need of help and will not use my help for any help any government anything give me their name and address and I will send them a box of food weekly. I will. I will do my best to help.

Mods, I hope you don't lock this thread. I feel no disrespect, I am not offended. Mujaahid is stating his opinion and so am I. I am impressed the young man does so without belittling and demeaning.

Mujaahid, I just wish all people everywhere would love and respect one another. I am only one person. I cannot save the world as much as I would like to. But I'll tell you what I do and maybe you and others can do the same and hopefully kindness will slowly take over the world. Slowly one inch, one foot at a time.

I do things for people, buy something they need, I carried a child for a mother who was struggling with a baby in a carrier and a toddler on foot in the pouring rain. I last week stopped at an accident and gave a mom holding a baby outside in the rain and wind the blanket out of my back seat. I do nopt tell you this for recognition. I am telling you this to make a point. When I do something if there is time, I ask the person I helped to PLEASE do something nice for another later and to tell the person they help to do the same. It is the only way I know how to pass on kindness and Love. It may sound silly and insignifigant. But think of it. If I help 20 people this year and half pass on an act of kindness and they ask a few others, in years I pray kindness will rule and not governments. Allah?? God??? Whatever one calls him and whatever book you read all may say it in a different way but say LOVE, PEACE, MERCY

My new friend Mujaahid, will you help me show the world Love, Peace and Mercy???? Please help me.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/16/01 at 16:52:33

P.S.

You look forward to this ??????
******************************************************************
I am looking forward to a time, which WILL come, when the USA will say

USA: Do as we say or else

Others: Or else what?

USA: we launch attacks against you

Others: Really? Well attack if you want, we have the means to fight back, we have technology to blow out the sky your B1's, and B52's, and sink your battle ships, and stop your cruise missiles!"
********************************************************************

You look forward to that???
Well my friend you know what I look forward to?

When all in the world look at on another and say to each other, "Hello, you are the creation of the one and almighty Allah/God and for his glory I welcome you, please come, sit and talk with me, are you hungry? Is there a need you have I can fill?"

This my brother as you are since we are from the same Grandfather, Adam if what I look forward to. I pray your heart will be soften and together we can make a difference.

Salaam

By the way my husband is on of those ships. Do you hate me? I would never look forward to anyone blowing anything up.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/17/01 at 17:14:55

Assalaamu-alaikum (greetings of peace) Cara.

Cara

<Time to renew. NO WAY, if your drivers lisc expires and you get pulled over the officer is still going to give you a ticket. You know when it expires be it drivers lisc, insurance, rent or visa and you make plans ahead of time to renew, not after it is expired.>

But this is a driving licence. You are talking about throwing someone out thier homes, and kicking them out the country and sending them away! That can seriously disrupt someones life!!!! Imagine if they have little babies, how will the kids feel going back and forth, thousands of miles at a time, for what? A stamp? Things need to be put into context! Comparing kicking someone out thier homes and sending them packing is not the same as slapping them on the wrist for not renewing their car licence!!!

<Waiting till it expires in my opinion is irresponsable and shows lack of respect for the system.>

But does it really warrant a punishment such as basically being kicked out the country, only for you to return later? Wouldnt it make more sense to make them pay a fine?

<Bounty hunter type, well I had a friend who came to visit my from England a couple months back. All she did was fill out a paper. They really had no way of knowing if she really knew me or if she was really staying with me.>

But what your implying hear is that she could have been a terrorist right? Now how do you think people are gona feel if they go around thinking "i gota prove i aint a terrorist? Your country is MADE of immigrants, immigrants made it what it was. The only native americans are the indians! The immigrant brits when they first arrived hundreds of years ago had a policy of ethnically cleansing indians out the lands, it was in fact LAW to drive indians away and take their land! Is this something america should be proud of?

IF america continues the way it does (or this new trend their using), you are gona isolate yourselves, as MOST brown skinned, or none-white people will feel they will automatically feel uncomfortable, that americans will be suspicious of them!!! How would you feel if you had to walk around trying to look as innocent as possible, trying to show people you are not a mass murderer, if you went to a foreign nation? I dont think you would enjoy it, or tolerate it for long. After a bit you would think "forget this, i can't stand this, people giving me suspicious looks, i aint done nothing wrong!!, i'm outta here"!

<Arrogance? Me? I am always saying I do not wish to offend and "YOU" asked my opinion. If you don't want the answer don't ask the question.>

I DID want your answer, and i said your answer showed arrogance, not arrogance in you personally, but arrogance as your opinion is typical of americans!!! Its this american attitude i find arrogant, as do many others, ie. "why dont he do as we say, yes we can have any weapons we want, but if THEY get them, we will punih them". Now that is arrogance, wouldnt you agree?

NOW before i forget let me ask you this, do you REALLY believe this is a fight for freedom and democracy by the US? If so, what happened to the Afghans freedom to be governed by the taliban? The people supported the taleban, although the media didnt show that! What about the freedom of the Iraqi's, Libyans, Cubans etc to trade as they please with whom they want, without the US stopping them?

What about democracy for the middle east? Why do america fund and support dictatorships in Saudi, Jordan, Omen, Bahrain to name but a few?

Dont you think this nonsense about a war for World freedom and democracy is just plain rhetoric?



OK so i ask you, why does the USA NOT abide by these same code and ethics it asks others to do? i.e. Why do the US have nuclear weapons, bio weapons, chem weapons, why do they think its ok to bomb, murder and kill innocent people? Why do they arrogantly NOT follow the ethics they accuse others of not following?

<Santions It is up to each country if they wish to do so.>

What? You mean by surrounding this country with your military to make sure nothing goes in, or comes out?

<Lastly, I am not a cold and heartless person but I still believe if you have money to get chem and bio weapons you have money to feed your people.>

The Iraqi government is a dictatorship, and the USA know it, so why impose sanctions on the people? We in the west do not go and ask the govrnment to buy us food, or give us medicine, if we need food, we go out to the shop and buy it when we need it, if we need medicine we go to the doc, or chemist and buy it! The Iraqi people do not have this choice. Why? Because US sanctions are preventing enough food, and medical aid from getting in! On what grounds? Well the usa cliam the medical aid could be used for bio terror programs! Pathetic dont you think?

<End of subject.>

<So unless there is something I am not aware of and there very well may be.>

Well have you ever seen pictures of Iraqi children dead, or dying? Have you often seen the mothers of these children crying over thier dead bodies? Have you ever seen greiving Iraqi families while they bury thier dead children? I am certain you have not, because if you did, i KNOW you would not have the views you do. Why? Because you say you are not cold and heartless, and the suffering of these people is the fault of YOUR country. If your country lifted the sanctions tomorrow, Iraq could be back on its feet in six months time.

I ask someone on the boards, mods etc, to send a link of the pictures of the Iraqi children who are suffering so Cara can see for herself what her freedom loving country is doing.

Cara i hope you will look at these pictures, they WILL be shocking, but to see the suffering, you must see these.

<Why did Iraq government chose to use their resources for weapons and not food for its people?>

According to who? The US media? Well we already know the Iraqi government is an evil dictatorship. But even before the US sanctions, this same Evil regime was in power, and the Iraqi's lived a comfortable life! They had a far superior medical Infrastructure then even the UK! This was destroyed by the sanctions! The people are now in poverty because of sanctions. Why are the ioinocents being punished and not the distators? your leaders KNOW the sanctions are not working, yet they still keep them, for what?

Even the UN chief weapons inspector resigned in 1998 because he said the USA had no interest in justice, they only wanted conflict in Iraq, and were behaving the way they were to have a conflict with Iraq, this coming fromthe chief weapons inspector, who also said in 1998 the Iraqi's had no means to produce weapons of mass destruction! WHY didnt the USA lift sanctions? Or take note of this? Because they dont care!

<Am I wrong but didn't Kuiwat ask for our help? Didn't Saudi help the US to help kuiwat ( I know I am not spelling that right)>

Osama Bin Laadin, one of the main leaders of the war against russia, offered to send his forces to saudi to drive out the iraqi's, and they WOULD have done it as bin laadin and the afghans, and foreign mujaahideen were at the time, a large, highly organised, well equipped army, but against ALL public opinion, fahad called in the americans, only the kuwaitis wanted the americans!



You wouldnt be saying that if it was your sons dying of malnutrition and lack of basic medical aid! Believe me you wouldnt.



ALL THOSE ANTI-MUJAAHID PEOPLE, TAKE NOTE!!!!

You tell em Cara!

<You are a human being with a heart and a brain>

Some such as saleema would dispute the second point :)

<My new friend Mujaahid, will you help me show the world Love, Peace and Mercy? Please help me>

I shall help, but first i need you to be more aware of the reality of the suffering your nation is causing, in the name of YOUR freedom, and then once your realise it, then make the other americans aware, and turn public opinion against the US 's cruel and barbaric foreign policy, as they did in the early 70's regarding vietnam. Once you do that, the government will have no choice but to act on huge public pressure, and when your nation changes its behaviour abroad, and stops ruining innocent lives, people will stop hating you, and then they will not wanna hurt you, and you will have fewer and fewer enemies, and that way world peace will be a LOT more simple, and more likely.

Cara i said i look forward to Others getting devastating weapons NOT because i want them used to blow nations apart, but because they will act as a DETERRANT to the US, and the USA will then STOP bullying and bombing anone that dont do as your nation says. Sad to say, but only such a threat can stop the USA from doing what its doing. I know we all want it done through dialogue, but the USA dont wanna know, so others, to protect themselves, will have no choice but to play the USA at thier own dirty game, and get the US to back off by the having the threat of force. And as stoopid as it seems, i feel that will bring world peace.

Either we are ALL strong, or all weak. When one is strong, and the other is weak, the strong can do as it pleases, and if the weak dont obey, they get punished, as the world situation today shows.

World peace isnt that difficult, just some nations need to leave others alone, leave other people to live under the rules, laws they choose.
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Saleema

12/16/01 at 18:19:49

When all in the world look at one another and say to each other, "Hello, you are the creation of the one and almighty Allah/God and for his glory I welcome you, please come, sit and talk with me, are you hungry? Is there a need you have I can fill?"

In the Quran Allah says, 'We have made you tribes and nations so that you may know each other, (not despise each other).'

That is the thing to look forward to. However, humans being humans, the powerful amongst us will most likey push others around until the other person is as powerful to stand up and say no.

Here's something that might answer some of your questions on Iraq. You should visit the link to read more. It's a very helpful sight.

http://iraqwar.org/talking-points.htm

by Jon Basil Utley

for AMERICANS AGAINST BOMBING IRAQ (www.iraqwar.org)

1/28/01 ARGUMENT: It is finally recognized that American/UN sanctions have contributed to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, mainly children and the old. What the sanctioneers now argue is that it's not America's fault, it's the wicked Saddam who doesn't care about his own people.

ANSWER--Washington has allowed food and medicine (and almost nothing else) but it blockaded chlorine to sanitize the water and any equipment to rebuild the electricity grid, irrigation and sanitation facilities. (A NY TIMES editorial 2/11/01 reports "currently American diplomats are holding up billions of dollars of imports needed for civilian transportation, electric power generation...and even medical treatment"). Since the last months Iraq is now getting some supplies for this purpose, either through the black market, or through the United Nations funds (nearly all oil sales have the money funded through the UN bureaucracy, subject to 40% reduction for reparations and subject to Washington's veto and foot dragging--often months to make a decision). Finally the Europeans rebelled at the cruelty and shamed Washington into allowing such imports, (NY Times 12/6/00) However, the main point is this. The world is full of dictators who kill their own peoples. The big difference with Iraq is that it's been done by the United States Government. Washington gave Saddam only two choices, to do things to get himself killed, or have Iraqis die under the sanctions.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/16/01 at 19:51:43

I have seen pictures of the Iraq and Afgan children. And although I have not been that bad off let me tell you I know what it is like to not have a place to live and no food. I know what it is like to sleep in a car in South Florida with two small children while the bugs, miquito's (I can't spell that) are eatting you and your kids and you feel helpless and guilty. I know what it is like to turn your kids into a home temp so atleast they will be fed and have a bed. Iam not without total understanding.

You said but this that is a drivers lisc. Correct me if I am wrong but when you apply for a visa do they not tell you how long it is good for? Does it not have an experation date on it? I know lots of countries I sure as heck would NEVER want to be caught in on an expired visa. If you come to this country on a visa and you have a certain time limit and wish to stay longer then work on it before it expires. ***With rights come responabilities.*** It is specific and simple.
Again my sons and their curfew... Obey the rules or don't go out.
Same applies here. abid by the rules or leave.If you don't like it then go to another country.

Same as my sons, if they didn't like my rules they were welcomed to go live with their Dad. Trouble is he was more strick than I. Is not Australia more strict than the US???

If they don't like the US rules and dates the go get educated or work in England or Australia or Japan or somewhere who best fits what you want.
***************************************************************
you say...But does it really warrant a punishment such as basically being kicked out the country, only for you to return later? Wouldnt it make more sense to make them pay a fine?
***************************************************************
Yes, if you know up front what is expected of you and what will happen if you do not follow through then YES it warrants that?

Pay a fine, so many, now a days thinks money settles everything. It gets criminals with high dollar attorneys off the hook.

*****************************************************************
Santions It is up to each country if they wish to do so.>

What? You mean by surrounding this country with your military to make sure nothing goes in, or comes out?

******************************************************************

I am talking about shunning sort to speak. The countries boardering the country in question do it at their own borders. If a country asks another for help then fine if not then they do their own. If someone is not abiding by the rules they are not coming in my house and nothing from my house is going to them the benefit them

One last thought then I need to get off this pc and will be back later.

So many do not like the US policies and all, yet they come here to be educated and work and live etc. I don't know about you ...but if I knew someone who I don't like the way they live, don't like they way they run their household and don't like the way they do things, do you think for a minute I would go live in their home, eat their own food and accept their hospitality? NOT ME

My country is not perfect. I'll never claim that. We make mistakes but we also send money to countries in need, help during disasters, and forgive debts. If we give #1 money it may anger #2 and if we give #2 money then #3 gets mad.
****************************************************************
You said....I shall help, but first i need you to be more aware of the reality of the suffering your nation is causing, in the name of YOUR freedom, and then once your realise it, then make the other americans aware, and turn public opinion against the US 's cruel and barbaric foreign policy, as they did in the early 70's regarding vietnam. Once you do that, the government will have no choice but to act on huge public pressure, and when your nation changes its behaviour abroad, and stops ruining innocent lives, people will stop hating you, and then they will not wanna hurt you, and you will have fewer and fewer enemies, and that way world peace will be a LOT more simple, and more likely.
******************************************************************
Well my brother there is always a reason to wait to begin love and mercy and kindness. How about we both start today, this very day and show folks our Love and kindness and compassion and peace and mercy. Lets not wait till folks are educated and aware.

I only know one way to teach and make one aware and that is by my actions, not trying to get them to see my point first.

Mercy, Peace, Love and Kindness have nothing to do with policy, government and such. It begins in ones own heart. Again I ask you, will you join me my brother? Will you make a difference in someones life today? this week? Then ask them to make a difference in anothers life?

Stop people from hating the US??? Heck Iraq and Iran can't stand each other. Afgan tribes have fought amoungst themselves. Different oriental cultures fight amoungst themselves.

Are you saying peace would be more simple if the US does all you think it should? Peace doesn't begin with a government or a policy. It begins in ones own heart and soul and grows as it touches everything it comes in contact with. And when enough get fed up with the government and policy they change it or leave and go somewhere else that suits your needs.

All I am asking is Will Mujaahid today start in his own corner of the world to show those around him Peace, Love , Mercy and kindness, not just his own kind but a stranger on the street? I appreciate your passion in your beliefs but would not some of that debating and anger and trying to make folks aware "energy" be best used on Peace and Mercy and Love and Kindness?

Help Me, ok make folks aware and such but lets not wait, let the Almighty's Love and Mercy show through us, you and me ok?

Salaam

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/16/01 at 19:54:49

Forgot something lol

*************************************************************
You say ...But what your implying hear is that she could have been a terrorist right? Now how do you think people are gona feel if they go around thinking "i gota prove i aint a terrorist? Your country is MADE of immigrants, immigrants made it what it was. The only native americans are the indians! The immigrant brits when they first arrived hundreds of years ago had a policy of ethnically cleansing indians out the lands, it was in fact LAW to drive indians away and take their land! Is this something america should be proud of?

*******************************************************************

Impying, Mujaahid, as you have read my posts, by now you should see I DO NOT imply. I speak very specifically. I may not spell it right but I speak it specifically :)
I did NOT imply or say a person was a terrorist or could be if they let their visa expire, what I did say was is irresponasable and shows lack of abiding by the rules. If one wants to stay here bad enough would they not make darn sure they follow the rules of staying here. People forget THIS is a free country yes, but you have to get here first. Coming here in my opinion is a privilage not a right if you were not born here.

One you prove yourself and get citizenship then it is your right to be here. And no matter if you are born here or get citizenship if you are going to hurt and kill people then you don't have any business here.

***************************************************************
another thing you said was ..........
Osama Bin Laadin, one of the main leaders of the war against russia, offered to send his forces to saudi to drive out the iraqi's, and they WOULD have done it as bin laadin and the afghans, and foreign mujaahideen were at the time, a large, highly organised, well equipped army, but against ALL public opinion, fahad called in the americans, only the kuwaitis wanted the americans!

******************************************************************
Well then that was Kuiwatt's choice of who they wanted to help them not Osama'a.
Shall I not help the neighbor on my right cause the neighbor on my left says not to?
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and to this comment lol :).......

ALL THOSE ANTI-MUJAAHID PEOPLE, TAKE NOTE!!!!
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I don't see any rudeness or disrespect, but my brother I do see passionate anger. And I pray as my eyes are opened ... your heart will be soften.

Besides as an only sister, ony daughter, only female cousin, mother of only sons, lol I would be almost willing to bet the bank you are between 18 and 26 and if I had to narrow it down 21 to 24 lol.
My views have changed so much from 20 to 30 to 40. Yes I am older than dirt :)

Anyway, At this point I can't change policy and government. If I could it would take many ships and planes and trains full of belts or paddles as I would take the world over my knee and spank many like naughty children.

What I can do is try to make a difference and show Love, Mercy, Peace and Kindness to all I come in contact with.
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Ayla

12/17/01 at 10:20:59

Hello! I came back. I apologize for my Haitus - no internet connection at home over the weekend. A lot has happened since then though. I am going to read everything again and digest before I really post but I do need to say a few things.

mujaahid - thnk you for your honest and thought out responces. I think at times you may have put some words in my mouth, and sometimes I left out entire words in sentences which led you to believe I meant something I didn't :) - entirely my fault. I too think honesty and deep investigation is the only way to look at this. Thank you. We will continue once I can process everything. Did you know that the US just backed out of the Anti-Missle Treatry with Russia this weekend? Yup - Star Wars (or whatever they're calling it post Reagan) is underway. I'm so filled with disgust, I can't even begin to convey.

CaraJ - I'm sorry but some of your facts are wrong i.e. Iraq was not blocaded by their border countries but by us. If Germany wanted to help - they couldn't because we wouldn't let them - much like the situation with Cuba. Also, Visas are VERY precious things. I do understand what you mean about rights and responcibilities. But some people here know/think that their Visas might not be renewed. We have a crazy quota system here and going back to the country of Origin is sometimes an unacceptable option. We have people here who should have refugee status who don't because of our stupid quotas who aren't going to just go turn themselves into immigration and stand the chance they might be sent back to famine/prison/death/genitle mutilation/abuse...so on and so forth. People who's situations are investigated and have a chance they might get to stay spend the time of that investigation in PRISON . Really that's not OK, these are victums and we treat them like criminals. Our immigration and naturalization system sucks - and we can't treat those who are here like criminals if we don't give them opportunities to seek help.

se7en - thank you for the links and perspective. I have always admired your calm approach. Again it soothes and informs. I have looked at human rights watch and Amnesty in the past and will do so again. Thank you though for providing those links for anyone who might not have.

OK - so - slightly off topic but I'll get back around - I promise. Today I am wearing hajib, well, a scarf on my head covering my hair. I do this as a part of the movement [url=www.interfaith.org]Scarves for Solidarity[/url]. Use the link if you would like to read their mission statement or look into them. The goal here is to demonstrate support for the Muslim Community all over the world but specifically for our US brothers and sisters who have suffered the backlash of rascism since September 11. We do this during Eid-ul-Fitr (spelling?) to celebrate our differences and similarities and in the attempt of promoting dialogue with the Muslim and non-Muslim community. Perhaps I'll start another thread about being a non-muslim wearing hajib and what I'm experiancing - do you think that would be OK or offencive? The point of my bringing this up though is that this conversation is enlightening and invaluable to the attempt at peace. Thank you.

There is so much work to be done and so many injuries to heal, our only hope is to work to get to know eachother and keep God and love in our hearts and minds. I am proud to have begun this process with such thoughtful and sincere people.

Thank you - I'll post again soon.
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/17/01 at 12:15:52

Ok if visa'a are that precious then as anything else precioue, (i.e. children, pictures of loved one, visa's) Protect it by filing again before it expires. Afraid it won't be renewed??? A visa it a tempory thing anyway so anyone thinking it is permante is fooling themselves.

Seems many think it is their "Right" to be here. Australia has much stricter immagration and visa laws. Other countries have stricter visa and Immigration policies.

Our Immig and Naturalization laws suck?????

If you don't like this country you do have the right to find a country more to your suiting, of your own desires and choosing. I don't mean any disrespect and I know this may come across sarcastic But anyone not liking it here I would advise them to make enough money or win the lotto and buy yourself and island and make your own laws and have anyone you want there as your guest.

Our country and our laws are not perfect, but it is the best we have for now. But must not be to imperfect as MANY and I do mean MANY flock here each month and each year. I don't mean any disrespect but I am so tired of hearing how bad we are yet many want to come here and ones already here complain.

Let me ask you this, if a friend, neighbor or relative of yours lived a life you did not like, ran their household in a way you did not like, would you go stay at their house? Allow them to feed you? Allow them to educate you?

I don't mean everyone, but it fustrates me how many people complain and hate this country but will take advantage of something they hate so much. Take advantage of education, food, loans, money and all kinds of help.

AGAIN, change begins in ones own heart. Spread Love, Mercy, Kindness and Peace. BUT ... Trick to it working is this... One needs to do it without expecting anything in return. And one needs to leave their comfort zone and show this to strangers not just people they know and are comfortable with.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Ayla

12/17/01 at 12:48:24

"If you don't like this country you do have the right to find a country more to your suiting, of your own desires and choosing."

We live in a democratic state where my opinion counts and I have an oportunity to change things. I vote and am active in my political beliefs. This country is one where these things are possible - I will not leave because of my political beliefs, race, religion, sex, or anyother reason which has been used for centuries in the "you don't like it, then leave" defence. I don't like it and I mean to change it, as I am entitled to do as an American. That is why I love this country.

"I don't mean everyone, but it fustrates me how many people complain and hate this country but will take advantage of something they hate so much."

I never said anything about hating anything. Please don't project difficulties you have with others on to me. The advantages we have in this country are many, one of the greatest is the opportunity to change and grow. Should we just sit back and say - OK - this is fine - because it's the best we've got? I don't think so, and doing so would be complaincent. It's our responcibility to take on the injustices and failures of our country and try to make it better. If we won't take that responcibility and make sincere efforts for good - how can we expect to not be hated by other nations? The status quo just won't do.

Cara - I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on some of these things. We aren't in Australia and I don't necessarily mean we need a more leanient immigration policy, just that we need a new one. I in no way meant to offend, but honestly, I took your remarks personally.

[i] edited to add another request taht this thread not be closed - This is good - a good dialogue I think - and I am not irreparably damaged :) I just felt the need to point it out. [/i]
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
humble_muslim

12/17/01 at 13:19:37

AA

Just a few comments

Mujahhid, the Quran says to invite others to Islam with wisdom and using beautiful ways. Please look DEEPLY into yourself, and ask yourself if you are really doing this with the non-muslims on the board, or whether you are just looking for an excuse to have an argument.

Se7en,

Thanks for you words of wisdom and calm. May Allah SWT grant ALL of us your wisdom, and help us learn from you.

Cara,

there are many aspects about Islam which cannot be understood without first beleiveing in it. And beleive me, even after beliving, there are some things hard to understand! My advice to you (and other non muslims, AND to muslims giving you advice) is to try to understand the basics of Islam : the oneness of God, the truth of his messengers and books, and the real humane spirit of Islam. An example of this was given by by a learned Imam yesterday, when he told us that at one time, there was a famine in Makkah. At that time, the muslims in Madinah were preventing goods from reaching Makkaah as part of the battle between the muslims and the non muslims. But at the time of the famine, the Prophpe Mohammed (peace be upon him) let the food go thru, as he did not even want his enemies to die from hunger.

As for the US good vs US bad argument, there is NOT one country on earth which is anyway near being perfect. Personally, I think the INS in the US is pretty fair providing that you follow the rules. In some countries, like Saudia Arabia, you can follow the rules and still end up in a bad way if you are an immigrant. Just talk to any Pakistani/Indian/Bangledsaehi/Egyptian who has lived in Saudia Arabia to hear examples of this.

However, there is no doubt that as far as foriegn policy is concerend, the USA's number one priority is to look after itself AT WHATEVER COST. If this means killing 500,000 Iraqi children, then - as was put by the then Foreign Secretary, Madeleine Albright - "it's a price worth paying".

The final point is that I think the US has overstepped the line domestically by freezing the assets of muslim charities at the end of Ramadhan. This is the biggest time of the year for collectiong charity, and for the US givernment to basically say (without evidence) that we muslims are now longer allowed to give charity to our starving brothers and sisters is "below the belt". As I write this, I am VERY seriously thinking about getting oput of this country. If the US goverment keeps up this policy, there will be NO FUTURE for the muslims in this country.

NS
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
mujaahid

12/17/01 at 14:34:14

Assalaamu-alaikum

Humble_Muslim

I was deeply offended by your accusation that i am only saying what i do for the sake of arguments. I do not see anywhere on this thread where i have said anything without reason, or said anything which implied i was just after a damn good argument, in fact their have been NO arguments, so for you to jump on and accuse me of such a thing is out of place, out of order, and most importantly untrue, after all have you seen any arguing between me, Ayla, or Cara? (remember just because we don't agree on something dont mean we're arguing. The whole point of me getting into dialogue with non-muslim americans was to understand why they feel the way they do, and if they understand why muslims hate america so much.

Cara

<So many do not like the US policies and all, yet they come here to be educated and work and live etc. I don't know about you ...but if I knew someone who I don't like the way they live, don't like they way they run their household and don't like the way they do things, do you think for a minute I would go live in their home>

Cara your nation gives these people no choice! It places sanctions on them, meaning they cannot earn a proper living, the US supports dictatorships, meaning these people often cannot be educated, or speak out against oppression, the US sometimes bomb them (Somalia, Libya, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Korea, Lebanon) so these people flee! The US sometimes supports their oppresion, and subdugation (Palestine), so these people are often left in a desparate situation, and often see the US as being one of the countries where they may be able to get out of the misery they are in, even if its caused by the USA themselves!! Desparate people do crazy things!

<Are you saying peace would be more simple if the US does all you think it should? Peace doesn't begin with a government or a policy.>

I disagree. If the US policy on israel changed, i'm sure palestinians and arabs would not hate you so much.

If the US policy on Kyoto (pollution agreements) changed, i'm sure much of the west wouldnt be so annoyed at you.

If US policy towards Iraq Changed, it would change the lives on tens of millions.

Policy is a MASSIVE thing, especially when it comes to superpowers, and the USA MUST stop its behaviour. The USA will always have enemies, because it as ruined,and continues to ruin so many.

<All I am asking is Will Mujaahid today start in his own corner of the world to show those around him Peace, Love , Mercy and kindness, not just his own kind but a stranger on the street? I appreciate your passion in your beliefs but would not some of that debating and anger and trying to make folks aware "energy" be best used on Peace and Mercy and Love and Kindness?>

What are you referring to? What is it you would like me to do today that will change the world?

<And I pray as my eyes are opened ... your heart will be soften.>

cara my heart will soften to the US once the USA decides to leave so many people alone, stops killing and ruining so many! My angre does not come for no reason, it exists because of the suffering i see today, at the hands of the usa, and anyone who looks at it can do nothing BUT be angry!

Kara, with a BIG K!



I apologise! Its just a bad habit i guess :)

<Did you know that the US just backed out of the Anti-Missle Treatry with Russia this weekend? Yup - Star Wars (or whatever they're calling it post Reagan) is underway. I'm so filled with disgust, I can't even begin to convey.>

Yeah i've been following that for a while, and although its disgusting to see the US continue to develop its weapons on mass destruction, i aint at all surprised! What is worse, is that this now gives russia the green light to do as it pleases, as does china, and Korea! Iraq will try the same, but of course THEY will get punished!

As i said before, the only way the US stops is behaviour is if others also have these weapons, therefore meaning they can no longer threaten or bully others with thier high tech weapons! Its dusgusting the US thinks it can do as it pleases, and it dont suffer much internal unheavey or pressure because the media HIDE the actions of the USA abroad, because the american public simply would NOT put up with the reality of the actions of your nation abroad!

I mean the US even ad the nerv to place sanctions in India and pakistan for developing nuclear weapons, while the USA themselves have plenty in abundance! In fact only this summer, Iran have started, and successfully tested a similar Anti-attack defence system. When the US found out, they started putting pressure on Iran to immediatly hault these weapons programs! Pathetic! Everyone has the right to defend themselves, not just the USA, the USA simply wants the right to do as it pleases, and others having top tech weapons will mean the US cannot do this!

You wore the Hijab? interesting! Was their a lot of people doing that thing to show support for muslims? What kinds of people took part? Midle class, posh, students etc?

Wasalaam

mujaahid

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Ayla

12/17/01 at 16:38:57

I have so much work to do - I really can't reply

I just want to take a moment to say that I don't think there's been arguing. I think if anything the goal here has been acheived and should be cultivated. Who would have thought that someone with the Name "Muslim Warrior" and I would be able to argue - point and counterpoint - convince and find a certain common ground. Will we ever agree 100% - probably not, but isn't this EXACTLY what mujaahid
desired when he bagan this - adn what I desired when I replied. If anything I feel I have gained a new fresh perspective and the opportunity to understand someone so different from myself, maybe dispel some of the assumptions about all Americans. Maybe even make a friend.

Oh and the Hajib - yup - I'm still in it. I was yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. I put a thread up about it but maybe it's not something others are interested in. I don't know. There are a lot of us here in the DC area participating. Mostly working middleclass women.

And so the process of healing and understanding begins.
Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/17/01 at 19:33:37

I mean no disrespect but I think a few (NOT ALL) of you put words in others mouths.

Again again, No disrespect but I wish people would read my words more than once before the respond as my words are getting twisted AND additional thoughts are being entered on my behalf.

Ayla... Yes it is a democratic country. Democratic enough to deal with it or change it or leave it.

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(I said) ....."I don't mean everyone, but it fustrates me how many people complain and hate this country but will take advantage of something they hate so much."

(then you said) ........I never said anything about hating anything. Please don't project difficulties you have with others on to me. The advantages we have in this country are many, one of the greatest is the opportunity to change and grow. Should we just sit back and say - OK - this is fine - because it's the best we've got? I don't think so, and doing so would be complaincent. It's our responcibility to take on the injustices and failures of our country and try to make it better. If we won't take that responcibility and make sincere efforts for good - how can we expect to not be hated by other nations? The status quo just won't do.
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Please re-read my sentence and tell me where in that sentence I said YOU hate anything??? The sentence reads and I quote

"I don't mean everyone, but it fustrates me" etc etc etc
No where in that sentence does it say Alya hates. NO WHERE

What did I say that you took personally? Unless I quote you and say YOU >>> Ayla said something or other, this is a discussion and I never said anything to you or toward you personally.
Never said, You Ayla hate or you Ayla are wrong or you Ayla are anything. What did you take personally?

*****************************************************************

And no one asked you to leave the US, just pointing out where that is one of many choices for anyone here.

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All I am asking is Will Mujaahid today start in his own corner of the world to show those around him Peace, Love , Mercy and kindness, not just his own kind but a stranger on the street? I appreciate your passion in your beliefs but would not some of that debating and anger and trying to make folks aware "energy" be best used on Peace and Mercy and Love and Kindness?>

<What are you referring to? What is it you would like me to do today that will change the world?>

********************************************************************

Mujaahid, My Dear Brother, read my prior posts in this thread again and you will find my request. To start with random acts of kindness and show Mercy, Peace, Love and Kindness.

********************************************************************

<cara my heart will soften to the US once the USA decides to leave so many people alone, stops killing and ruining so many! My angre does not come for no reason, it exists because of the suffering i see today, at the hands of the usa, and anyone who looks at it can do nothing BUT be angry!>

Mujaahid, I will tell you as I told my sons, you are responsable for your own actions not others actions. Also one needs to soften their heart cause one knows it is right not cause someone does or does not do something. If you wait until others do as you wish it won't happen. What I am saying is why wait till the US changes, Change should begin in each one of us just because it is the right thing to do and will be pleasing to Allah/God. One can make all the excuses and conditions they want, I find most who do that always have another excuse or requirement. NOT SAYING YOU DO :)

I need to let all of you know this has been a little fustrating for me ( No actually a lot fustrating) as I find I spend more time quoting and re quoting my self and others before I can go on with the conversation. Don't take this wrong but I do find some, putting words in others mouths and expressing different things and thoughts that are not there. I respectfully point this out with a request. We all need to read more carefully before we respond.

I am going to take a day or two away from this and I would like to leave with this pray from my heart...

Almighty One, some call you Allah and others God. There are so many names for you yet you are one. Forgive me if I am not seeing things clearly, I try. I ask of you, please, that you soften hearts, open eyes and help us to know you better. I know you are a God of Love and Mercy, please help all of us in here to show that Love and Mercy to all around us. You Love us and have Mercy on us in spite of our short comings and we need to do the same to others around us. Please give us the strength to do so. Please hear my prayer. Thank You for your many blessings, thank you for this earth you provide for us. And thank you for this Jannah web site and all who are here. Please Bless each of my new friends and their families. I also ask and pray that you soften the hearts of all government leaders around the world, that they start to do what is pleasing to you and for your honor and glory. Help all of us to show and spread kindness, Love, mercy, and Peace. You do so much and give so many blessings and I am not deserving yet you do so anyway. Thank You Lord.

Salaam My Friends, I'll be back in a day or two.

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
amatullah

12/19/01 at 13:45:34

Bismillah and salam,

You know what blows my mind away? When other places, say when France got the subway explosion from an algerian guy belonging to some group I can't remember, they didn't feel the right to go and carpet bomb all of algeria and possibly other countries. Why are Americans lives worth more than anyone else in this world?

Re: Wanted to Thank Everyone for their kindness
Caraj

12/19/01 at 14:24:53

No, one life is not more or less important than anothers. As far as I am concerned we are all the same. To answer your other question? I would say it has to do with who was in office at the time. Believe me when one of our embassies and our ship was gone after many were upset that Pres didn't take action and all. By action I don't mean go bomb someone but he should of had a major investigation and gone after any responsable. In my opinion.

To others who contributed to this thread. I didn't leave for a day or two cause I was insulted. I can homestly say I am not insulted in the least. What fustrated me was being told I said things and implied things I did not.

I found I was wasting much energy going back and quoting myself. One would say they took something a certain way or I said something and I knew I didn't. So it took a lot of time going back over what I did, in fact say and then quoting it, fixing it and then going on with the conversation. THAT I found most fustrating and counter-productive. This is why I said I was leaving the boards for a day or so and left you all with a prayer from my heart and a request we all read things more carefully before we quote one another.

Hopefully anyone who has read a few of my posts knows by now I am very specific about what I say. Offended? Insulted? No way
Fustrated? Deffinatly :)

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