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Bin Laden Tape
veilsofbeauty
12/10/01 at 13:16:39
Salaams y'all, k, i'm sure y'all will hear it from the ever faithful (ha) CNN..."TAPE SHOWS BIN LADEN GUILTY" or something like that. I'm not Arab, but when it is released will someone on this board listen to the untranslated version (like straight from Al-Jazeera) and find out if he REALLY admitted to 9/11?  I am so confused.

the tape..
princess
12/10/01 at 14:09:51
walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;-D i was actually listening to "sam donaldson-live in america" this morning..and he was talkin about..."the tape.." bush has said that he thinks the public should get to see it..but he's consulting with his ppl.. sam said that in the video, bin laden is happy that [i]his[/i] plan was a success..and that he too was surprised that the buildings fell..and he was happy about the falling blah blah.. sam also had 2 senators; 1 from nebraska, the other i dunno where..and 1 of them said that the tape was in horrible print..and they weren't sure if the mozlems would think it was doctored..so that was another reason why they were waitin to decide on that.. they may have already decided to show or not to show..and i may not be aware..since i'm not listening to the radio right now :)

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/13/01 at 15:38:51
ASSALAAMU-ALAIKUM!!! FIX!! FIX!!! IT WAS SOOOOOO FAKE!!!!!! How STOOPID do they think the public is???? It was clear beyond doubt that this tape is a fix. I have heard so real techno geeks saying with technology they can pretty easily come up with high quality fakes, especially with new imaging software etc!! Also rather stragly, how come the tape was such poor quality? How come bin laadins face looked kinda chubby? How come when he spoke, we couldnt see his lips? THAT is a major flaw! We could not clearly see bin laadins lips, it appeared like he was mumbling, but seeing other Bin Laadin tapes, he never mumbles, but speaks clearly, and expresses himself well, and we can clearly see his lips!! With this video it was VERY difficult to see his lips so how do we know what was REALLY coming out his mouth? Also the sound was VERY poor quality, now THAT is suspect, because even on the cheaoest camera's, voice always seems to come across pretty clear!!! Now i doubt bin laadin has cheap quality camera's, no sorry but no way would a multi millionaire of his people carry cheap equipment!!! This is FAKE, so fake that even the media in the UK are kinda edgy over it, and have questioned its authenticity!!! This was a MAJOR error by the USA and they are now gona get found out BIG TIME!!!! And finally, why would bin laadin make two video statements saying he did NOT anything to do with the attacks, and then have someone recording him on another occasion saying he DID mastermind the attacks? And lets say he DID make that video, would he really be stupid enough to leave it behind? I somehow doubt it!!! This is the major fix of this new century, and hilariously, most people are doubtful over this tape!!!! The USA government must be thinking they made a major screw up!!!

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Jenna
12/13/01 at 18:43:06
[quote]FIX!! FIX!!! IT WAS SOOOOOO FAKE!!!!!! THAT is a major flaw! We could not clearly see bin laadins lips, it appeared like he was mumbling, but seeing other Bin Laadin tapes, he never mumbles, but speaks clearly, and expresses himself well, and we can clearly see his lips!! With this video it was VERY difficult to see his lips so how do we know what was REALLY coming out his mouth? Also the sound was VERY poor quality, now THAT is suspect, because even on the cheaoest camera's, voice always seems to come across pretty clear!!! Now i doubt bin laadin has cheap quality camera's, no sorry but no way would a multi millionaire of his people carry cheap equipment!!! And finally, why would bin laadin make two video statements saying he did NOT anything to do with the attacks, and then have someone recording him on another occasion saying he DID mastermind the attacks? And lets say he DID make that video, would he really be stupid enough to leave it behind? I somehow doubt it!!! [/quote] [wlm]  JAZAKUM'ALLAHKHAIR!!! All the points I wanted to make!!! SubhanAllah! I am watching it right now. So sad! Allah has already warned us of this!! I am so upset! ):( ):( Jenna

Re: Bin Laden Tape
explorer
12/13/01 at 19:28:33
[slm] Yeh thats true, his face did look kinda chubby, a lot different to the recent video from Al-jazeera. Apparently it was found in Jalalabad but shot somewhere else! It took approx 1 month for the US to release this - plenty of time for the CIA to doctor it, if indeed it was genuine. I would take it with a pinch of salt. After all we are dealing with a very devious and clever enemy in the US.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/13/01 at 19:37:12
[slm] Genuine or not--I don't know and I couldn't be bothered to know. Say what you will but Osama dying at the hands of the U.S. doesn't bother me much because of him more than 3,000 Afghanis have died. Yes, I know, I know, it was the U.S's bombs, they have the first responsibility but Osama comes in second after the U.S and it's allies for the civilian deaths. I think Osama bin Laden is selfish. But the fundamental question is--Why would he make a video, to give to who? For what reason? Why would he forget to leave behind such and incriminating evidence? [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
explorer
12/13/01 at 20:07:30
[quote] But the fundamental question is--Why would he make a video, to give to who? For what reason? Why would he forget to leave behind such and incriminating evidence?[/quote] [slm] Thats exactly what I was just thinking. If he really did it, then why in the world would he possibly have it recorded and left it behind? The media has blitzed us with how well organised and funded Al-Qaeda is, the 1000's of die-hard soldiers around Bin Laden, its worldwide network, satellite phones, Bin Laden moving by night from cave to cave, yet is he that stupid to video himself talking about the bombing, let alone leave it behind? I think not. The attacks on the WTC and Pentagon was a massive well-thought out and planned operation. Whoever masterminded this wouldn't be so clumsy.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
bhaloo
12/13/01 at 21:54:16
slm I have heard that over 9,000 Afghanis have died due to this bombing.  I heard someone from Al-Jazeera said the film was a fake, but I don't know what I did with that email.    Allahu alam.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Jenna
12/13/01 at 23:22:44
[quote] Say what you will but Osama dying at the hands of the U.S. doesn't bother me much because of him more than 3,000 Afghanis have died.I think Osama bin Laden is selfish. [/quote] [wlm]  If a Muslim has done something wrong; we dont give him to the hands of the Kuffar, we as Muslims should take care of that. And we should be bothered if the Kuffar captures a Muslim: because you have no idea the kind of torture they may inflict upon him. America hates the Taliban because they are of only a few of the people trying to establish an Islaamic State. We have all these "Moderate" Muslim hating the Taliban and what they stand for and all they stand for is the True Islaam, Alhumdulilah hir Rabil'Alameen! I don't think he is selfish, I believe that he is doing what most men are too scared to do, and that is fight for the word of Allah ta'aala. We are to live in a land were we can practise Islaam freely and ALL laws prescribed by Allah. We are not to be in a place where we are governed by the Kuffar. InshaAllah I pray to Allah that he helps us leave really soon! We are truly working hard on it and have a date set!! Allahu'Alim Jenna

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Yasin
12/14/01 at 00:22:08
[slm]  I download part of the tape from aljazeera site and i watch before and after i read the the transcript from cnn site.[url=http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/]here[/url] What i found is that the main talks that make osama guilty are inaudible [quote] [color=red]Osama: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.  [/color] [/quote] [quote] [color=red]Osama: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was sitting with Dr. Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We turned the radio station to the news from Washington. The news continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end of the newscast, they reported that a plane just hit the World Trade Center.  [/color] [/quote] [quote] [color=red]Osama: Abdallah Azzam, Allah bless his soul, told me not to record anything (...inaudible...) so I thought that was a good omen, and Allah will bless us (...inaudible...). Abu-Al-Hasan Al-((Masri)), who appeared on Al-Jazeera TV a couple of days ago and addressed the Americans saying: "If you are true men, come down here and face us." (...inaudible...) He told me a year ago: "I saw in a dream, we were playing a soccer game against the Americans. When our team showed up in the field, they were all pilots!" He said: "So I wondered if that was a soccer game or a pilot game? Our players were pilots." He (Abu-Al-Hasan) didn't know anything about the operation until he heard it on the radio. He said the game went on and we defeated them. That was a good omen for us. [/color] [/quote] [quote] [color=red]Osama: He did not know about the operation. Not everybody knew (...inaudible...). Muhammad ((Atta)) from the Egyptian family (meaning the Al Qa'ida Egyptian group), was in charge of the group.   [/color] [/quote] [quote] [color=red] Osama: (...inaudible...) then he said: Those who were trained to fly didn't know the others. One group of people did not know the other group. (...inaudible...) (Someone in the crowd asks UBL to tell the Shaykh about the dream of ((Abu-Da'ud)).[/color] [/quote] His words didn't match his hands movement and  It is clear  that they change his words to another words..which they make inaudible...  As we know osama denied any involvement to this attack but, he support like some of our fellow muslims..so, I think this tape was shot during a visit to a family house coz, there are to much noise u can even heard   children's noises and  they were discussing the event like  all the people discussed the event... and the most interesting thing is that the tape is not in order ...the first part is on last part of the tape where the last is the first part of the tape... [wlm] ThE-YaSkA

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/14/01 at 04:05:14
Thank You Saleema for being brave enough to speak your mind. I don't mean any disrespect but I too think Bin Laden is selfish and I just never said anything cause I didn't want to offend anyone. Think about it, if any of you on this board truly believed in a cause you stood for would you hide out while many were being killed? If he truly believes he is right and his cause justified why does he not say,  "Please stop, here I am. I will stand up for what I believe in"Afganistan has given him a home and hospitality all these years and he now hides while others are killed. Some may think he wouldn't get a fair trial. Well I don't blame you for thinking that. Maybe this is not the answer but I think for such a horrible crime, when it involves two or more countries then there should be an international court. Maybe three people from several dozen countries. But maybe that is to big of an idea. Isn't this man an outlaw and wanted by his own country of birth? Again please I do not want to offend anyone I am just voicing an opinion and if anyone wsshes to correct me I am open to truth. This world is so big and there is some much here for all of us. I don't understand why we cannot live in peace and respect one another. I think Sept. 9th is horrible and I think the war in Afganistan is horrible. Please starting this week, then once a month I ask of all of you. I may not be Muslim but we are all sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, we share the same grandparents sort to speak. Please start with yourselves and email such a request to all your friends and family. This week do two ramdom acts of kindness, one to a person known to you and the other to someone you don't know. Wave someone in a car ahead of you to go before you, or help a Mom struggling to carry a child. Stop for someone broke down. Take a meal to someone, open the door for someone, ANYTHING, and before you go ask the person you helped to pass on the blessing and ask them to do something nice for someone. PLEASEEEEEEEEEE. I saw an accident the other day and it was cold and rainy. The gal had a baby in her arms and was out of the car waiting for the police. I stopped and gave her the blanket out of my back seat. All I said is, here please take this and wrap the baby up. and I left. I don't tell you this for recognition, only to show an example. Let's turn this world around with kindness. Salaam Am I asking to much???

Re: Bin Laden Tape
jaihoon
12/14/01 at 05:41:30
I have a feeling that even Bin Ladin has no clue who was behind Sep 11 attacks ;) . He too is a media victim, i suppose :)

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Lisha
12/14/01 at 06:33:51
as-salaam alaikum, I think this tape is fake too! 4 similar reasons):( America has enough equipment to to this kinda stuff!!!:( At first i also thought Bin Laden was a selfish man!!! But do u actually think this war is JUST against Bin Laden??? Coz i dont! Afganistan is a country where islam was being establishd, isnt that enough of a reason for USA wantin to bomb afganistan???   I think it was fair how they said they'd hand Bin Laden over if everthin was done in the islamic courts!  Muslims cant just bow down to anything President bush wants and says! I dont like the way the innocents were killed):(.  But if u look at the talibans that did surender! what happend to them??? the were killed:( Either way i think America would hav had  another reason for war, if not bin laden, they'd hav said the taliban r ruining ppl's lifes in Afganistan and started a war...ect I dunno coz everythin is getting more and more confusin 4 me. soz abt all that babling!!! Only Allah (swt) knows best, take care w'salaam

Re: Bin Laden Tape
NewJehad
12/14/01 at 06:51:10
salama the attack on afghanistan has nothing to do with bin ladin. If the sept 11th thing had not happened the CIA would have blown something else up to justify attacking Afghanistan. there is too much oil in central Asia for afghanistan not to be under US control. Every one knows this. There were reports pasted in musjids a year before Sept 11th about the US preparation to invade. US spcial forces were there in central Asia a year before it happened. If this was about Binladin, all the US needed to do was agree to him being handed to a nuteral country, but they never, why not? Most people are sure that if bin ladin was handed over, the US would demand more people, and demand to have inspecters all over the ground, like they did in Iraq, who will make excuses just like happened in iraq to justify bombing, by statements like the taliban is  not cooperating. Remember the Muslim is never bitten from the same hole twice.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/14/01 at 12:11:51
So do you all really think this is some great conspericy??? I am begining to question if folks are just that paraniod and looking to blame or am I really that blind??? You know when I came here I came to learn and make new friends. From the Sister's cafe and the Bebzi boards I found this. Felt truly welcomed. But as I got into the board and ventured out to other sections and eventually came to this room it was like a whole different web site. A totally different atmosphere. So anti-American and anti-Bush and a "they are out to get us" attitude. I swear I mean no disrespect at all but I am honestly telling you what kind of impression I got from this part of the board and the posts here. If I was wanted and folks were being killed while someone was trying to get to me I would have to stop hiding and say,  "Please stop, here I am."  But that is just my opinion. Again I ask cause no one answered so far or I didn't see it. ISN'T this man wanted even in his country of birth? I wish all of you ... PEACE ... SALAAM

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Ayla_A
12/14/01 at 12:47:51
[slm] My take on the Bin Laden tape is that it was secretly taped.  I don't think anyone other than the camera man knew that there was taping going on.  My reasons for this are as follows 1.  Guards constantly are walking in front of the camera, and usually when someone is taping people try to avoid this from happening. 2.  A few times you see like a coat or something fall over the lens of the camera, this would suggest that it was under something or hidden. 3.  The quality of the voice is bad, like muffled, probably because the microphone was under the coat or whatever. 4.  The people being taped never look at the camera, usually this is human nature to look at a person taping you, even if you are not supposed to do this. 5.  The fact that the tape is out of order, this also suggests to me that the tape got to the end and instead of switching tapes, which would be very obvious, the camera person just rewinded the tape and started shooting again. 6.  In all previous Bin Laden the tapes are very professionally done, Bin Laden talks directly to the camera. Also some other notes.  Bin Laden constantly switches from Saudi dialect to Egyptian dialect so probably the "school taught" arabic speakers would not be able to catch the subtle differences in the language. Also I know that there was some definite mistakes, but I can't post them right now, I do not want to make an error and have to check my sources again on this issue (sorry) Whether he is guilty or not, that is not for me to decide, I know that this tape would never be accepted in a N.American court because of the quality or the way that the tape was seized, but for a military tribunal, it will probably be the all damning evidence. Just my take on it [wlm] Ayla

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/14/01 at 16:38:03
Shawar you wrote "Say what you will but Osama dying at the hands of the U.S. doesn't bother me much because of him more than 3,000 Afghanis have died. Yes, I know, I know, it was the U.S's bombs, they have the first responsibility but Osama comes in second after the U.S and it's allies for the civilian deaths" No, sorry, but the deaths of the Afghans is to be blamed on the Pakistani authorities who allowed the USA to use thier bases and airspace to lauch attacks, and to refuel for these attacks. The blame for afghan deaths, 1) Pakistan 2) America 3) Arab world (leaders) 4) The Ummah as a whole. This has nothing to do with bin laadin. Bush, and the USA authprites clearly stated before the war, that even if bin laadin was handed over, the USA would still bomb afghanistan, so bin laadin is irrelevant. Even pakistani officials said that as early as june, the USA had already planned to over throw the taleban governemnt by late October!!! Ayla, what you said is flawed for one reason, much of the filming was at bin laadins eye level. Now he may have been sitting, but i think he would have noticed a camara, even a small one! And he really deeply trusts the guys around him, and would not allow anyone that close if he didnt 100% trust them!  Also i dont see why a hidden camera would make bin laaden look happy,chubby and stress free, and his beard almost completely black (As we have seen on Al Jazeera it is mostly white), when on al-jazeera he looked worried and seriously stressed! It just dont add up. CARA!!!! Man your comments saddened me, but i shouldnt be surpirsed as yku have probably spent a lot of time getting info from the US media. "So anti-American and anti-Bush and a "they are out to get us" attitude." Cara i dont mean to be rude, but please open your eyes, listen to us, the muslims, listen to what WE have to say, not just what your media says. U accuse us of being anti american, what else CAN we be? America has 5'000 troops on our holiest and most sacred site, america has imposed sanctions on Iraq, which caused the deaths of at least 500'000 iraqi children in 10 years (madeline albright said it was a price worth paying!), your country has butchered the afgans, our sources are saying over 9'000 have been killed in only 2 months of US bombings, the US and Bush have armed to the teeth Israel to help buther the palestinian muslims while vetoing EVERY UN resolution against Israel, which has deeply harmed palestininas, how then can you expect us muslims NOT to deeply hate the USA? Cara this is not an insult, but americans are the most ill informed people on the planet, your media puts across a rosey image of the USA abroad, like you are the darlings of the world, yet the truth is hardly EVER shown to the US people!!! Do you actually realise what your government is doing to other nations just to give your people a better life? Cara america in the past 50 years have bombed Iraq, Iran Aghanistan, Hiroshma Nagasaki Vietnam Cambodia Lebanon Sudan Somalia Yemen to but a few!!!! What gives the US the right to bomb whom ever it wishes to? Dont the US public care about the lives of non-americans? Why do you think september the 11th Happened? Because some looney decided to fly a plane into your towers? No. They have been hurt being belief, thier families, their people have been murdered by the USA, by the CIA, thier nations have been crippled by US sanctions, the USA has ruined these peoples lives, and so out of rage, and blind angre, they commit an appaling revenge attack against the USA. Believe me Cara, as aweful as 11/9 was, the USA was asking for it. Thats not to justify what happened, by its to explian WHY it happened. Nothing happens without a reason. I guarantee you, if the USA hasnt hurt so many people with its behaviour and self centred arrogance aborad, they would not have the enemies they have today, and sept 11th would never have happened. I apologise if i have gone hot headed, but this is an emotional subject and it has to be said. American people need to relise WHY other people have such a deep hate towards your country.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Ayla_A
12/14/01 at 16:56:34
[wlm] Mujaahid [quote]Ayla, what you said is flawed for one reason, much of the filming was at bin laadins eye level. Now he may have been sitting, but i think he would have noticed a camara, even a small one! And he really deeply trusts the guys around him, and would not allow anyone that close if he didnt 100% trust them!  Also i dont see why a hidden camera would make bin laaden look happy,chubby and stress free, and his beard almost completely black (As we have seen on Al Jazeera it is mostly white), when on al-jazeera he looked worried and seriously stressed! It just dont add up.[/quote] I beg to still differ with you brother.  The lighting is of very poor quality, but if you look carefully you will see that his beard is very white (especially cnn video), it is also now winter and he is probably wearing much more clothes than he was in the earlier videos.  He was not in his own house, he would have had much less control of who was in this house.  I went back and watched the video again and believe me brother I watched it with a very critical eye.   He is still a human brother, he is meeting with friends, having breakfast, why wouldn't he be happy and stress free at that moment? Also stress can make you gain weight, plus if his kidneys or other health problems that he was/is having could mean that he is on medication that causes weight gain.  That statement totally does not make sense!!  As for the camera being at eye level, I still think it was a hidden camera cause not once did any of the people on the tape look to the camera even once!!  This is just totally against human nature. [wlm] Ayla

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/14/01 at 18:13:44
<I beg to still differ with you brother.  The lighting is of very poor quality,> Dont you thnk that was a bit of a coincidence? As was the poor sound, and poor picture quality? <but if you look carefully you will see that his beard is very white (especially cnn video)> I DID look, it had hints of white, but was mostly black!!! And what does the CCN video mean? Did they also make thier own version? Or did they just edit his beard to make it whiter? <it is also now winter and he is probably wearing much more clothes than he was in the earlier videos.> I was referring to his face looking chubby! <He was not in his own house, he would have had much less control of who was in this house.> How do you know it wasnt his house? How do you know it WAS a house? However if true, that actually means even MORE reason to be cautious!!! AND if it was a secret filming, why didnt the cameraman immedialty relase the tape? Why was it only found when bin laadins house was left vacated?  I went back and watched the video again and believe me brother I watched it with a very critical eye.   <He is still a human brother, he is meeting with friends, having breakfast, why wouldn't he be happy and stress free at that moment?> Well maybe the fact the he is talkign about something which is making him the talk of the world, making thousans of afghans hunt him down, haveing a 25 million tag on head, maybe all those little minute irrelevant points might mean he may be just a tad stressed out? He didnt looked stressed, worreid or ANYTHING!! In fact he was happy, chatty and smiling, not the behaviour of the man at the centre of a worldwide hunt!!! <Also stress can make you gain weight> eh? So when Al-Jazeera interview him, he looses weight, but when he is being secretly filmed, his face goes chubby? Dont you think thats a bit strange? <As for the camera being at eye level, I still think it was a hidden camera cause not once did any of the people on the tape look to the camera even once!!  This is just totally against human nature.> EXACTLY!!! All the more reason to think it was fake!!! Now tell me, how often do film actors look at the camera while filming? NEVER!!! Understand what i'm saying? Also i saw a picture of the tape on a UK paper, and he looked nothing like bin laaden, my 10 year old bro, while shopping today for eid, told me to quickly look at a fake picture on bin laaden, i saw the Daily Express paper, and thought, NO WAY is that Bin Laadin, it looked  fake.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
explorer
12/14/01 at 18:48:12
Ayla, [slm] You make some very interesting points. I'm surprised none us thought of those possibilities before. Security around Bin Laden is supposedly very tight. Anyone allowed near him is thoroughly searched, possesions taken inside out to look for any bugs, bombs etc. The only possiblity I can think of to support your observation is a traitor within his immediate 'entourage', something which cannot be discounted. Good analysis.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Ayla_A
12/14/01 at 20:39:28
[slm] mujaahid [quote]Dont you thnk that was a bit of a coincidence? As was the poor sound, and poor picture quality? [/quote] It is not a coincidence if it was a hidden camera though. [quote]I DID look, it had hints of white, but was mostly black!!! And what does the CCN video mean? Did they also make thier own version? Or did they just edit his beard to make it whiter? [/quote] Please look to this picture on the  aljazeera website at the url - [url=http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2001/12/12-14-15.htm]Look to Al-Jazeera's picture of Bin Laden from the video [/url] [quote]I was referring to his face looking chubby! [/quote] Camera angles can make something look different, if you will notice from the picture from the Al-Jazeera website his face does not look that chubby. [quote]How do you know it wasnt his house? How do you know it WAS a house? [/quote] [color=green][quote] Shaykh: (Describing the trip to the meeting) They smuggled us and then I thought that we would be in different caves inside the mountains so I was surprised at the guest house and that it is very clean and comfortable. Thanks be to Allah, we also learned that this location is safe, by Allah's blessings. The place is clean and we are very comfortable. [/quote][/color] This is from the transcript of the tape found here [url] http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/ [/url] [quote]However if true, that actually means even MORE reason to be cautious!!! AND if it was a secret filming, why didnt the cameraman immedialty relase the tape? Why was it only found when bin laadins house was left vacated?[/quote] If it is a traitor then he might not have had a chance to release the tape, but he could certainly leave it laying around to be found. [quote]Well maybe the fact the he is talkign about something which is making him the talk of the world, making thousans of afghans hunt him down, haveing a 25 million tag on head, maybe all those little minute irrelevant points might mean he may be just a tad stressed out? He didnt looked stressed, worreid or ANYTHING!! In fact he was happy, chatty and smiling, not the behaviour of the man at the centre of a worldwide hunt!!! [/quote] I would be very stressed brother, but then I am not Osama, and his faith in his cause is very strong and he is not afraid to die for his cause (Al-Jazeera tapes he has said this) everyone on the planet deals with stress differently right.  I am not trying to defend the tape itself, but I also do not want to give into conspiracy theories as well. [quote]EXACTLY!!! All the more reason to think it was fake!!! Now tell me, how often do film actors look at the camera while filming? NEVER!!! Understand what i'm saying? [/quote] Yes I understand that totally, I did not ever say the tape was legitimate, I was just saying it looks like it was by a hidden type camera!! I understand why us Muslims have a critical look at what the USA Media does, I make sure to take a very large view from many sources of the story, cause usually you will find the truth someplace in the middle.  No matter what the source of the news it is important to get as many sides as possible. [wlm] Ayla

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/14/01 at 22:27:32
Think about it, if any of you on this board truly believed in a cause you stood for would you hide out while many were being killed? Thank you Cara. It's not like he's the President or Prime Minister, Khalifah, or whatever of some country that he is hiding away. No one is being Anti-American, however we are Anti-American POLICY. which is very different from being Anti-American. And there is nothing wrong with that, not in God's sight, not in the United State's Constitution's Bill of Rights, and there are thousands of Americans who don't like Bush, who didn't vote for him and who are against the war as well. Do they hate America and themselves? No, they just want things better for the world and for America. Interesting Alya, to me it makes sense but God knows best [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
amatullah
12/14/01 at 22:50:19
Bismillah and salam, I think it is fake too. -why would it sound clear when sheikh speaks but not when BL, especialy on the incriminating parts? If the mic was screwed up you would think it was for the whole time, or at least more indiscrimanetly. -why did they meet with hollywood right after the attcks? -why was his dialect so mixed more than ever heard before? -I swear I saw a couple of times his lips moving moving and nothing coming from him but fully clear words of sheikh who was talking at the same time.It was strange. -The version i saw was on cnn and it said it was translated by US gov. I found some major mistakes in the translation. Including when he says "al-ansar wa almuhajireen" it was translated to almujahideen. I am more inclined to believe a muslim brother, regardless of whether i like him or not, when he says he hasn't done it than to believe the US who said they will do eveyrhting they can to get him. They are capable of making it realistic. He doesn't seem like someone who would be ashamed or lie about what his intentions or what he is doing. I think it is becoming too dangerous when we say either with the US or with terrorism as many people may not agree with what happened but do not agree with taking mroe lives. many see how the US needs to change and how their past has played a role in what is happening. For many years, the lives of non whites, the poor, and muslims, have been treated as less important the those of others especially amercian citiizens. Now they are showing the world how true that is one more time.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
bhaloo
12/15/01 at 00:10:01
slm FWD: MESSAGE According to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40898-2001Dec13.html: "The U.S. government has provided few details about the origins of the tape, except to say that it was found in a private home in the Afghan city of Jalalabad, and that it records a mid-November bin Laden-led meeting in Kandahar." According to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41112-2001Dec13.html: "The video, which was found in a house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, carries a date stamp of Nov. 9, officials said." However, according to the transcript released [http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf]: The 'visiting shaykh' speaks of a 'full moon' on his way to see OBL, and also of 'this holy month of Ramadan'. This would date the video as mid-Ramadan (about the end of November or even early December}. According to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37621-2001Dec13.html: "White House press secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters that President Bush was told about the tape on Nov. 29 and saw portions of it the next day." The dates are confused and if the video was actually made at the end of November, it would mean the video was shot in Kandahar, moved to a private residence in Jalalbad and landed in the hands of the Americans almost immediately, transcribed and presented to G Bush on 30 November 2001. G Bush being made aware of the tape on 29 November 2001. According to http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/index.html : They said they found the videotape in a private residence in Jalalabad, although they cautioned the nature of its discovery was more complicated. One should not only be cautious about the 'nature of its discovery' but about its content.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
MuslimaKanadiyya
12/15/01 at 01:11:55
assalamu alaikum, I don't want to comment on the authenticity of the tape or the lack thereof, I wish to address Cara's comment.  I don't believe I could stand the thought of another person being killed because someone is looking for me. Bin Laden should, in my opinion, make an appearance in all this. If he is innocent, God will grant him paradise if the Americans kill him.  If not, his place in hell is awaiting him unless he truly repents for his actions.  Hiding or not hiding does not change this. Therefore, I have to say that I agree with Cara and to a lesser extent with Saleema: to me, having a single innocent person die while I am hiding out somewhere, innocent or not, would be devastating and I think that I would rather die myself than let anyone else die in the horrible bombings (those diasy cutters have the potential to kill thousands in a single blow).  If giving myself over to the Americans could stop the bombings, I would do so.  If this would mean my death, I would leave myself to the judgement of Allah (swt) who is more just than any person could ever be. Someone has to do something to stop the Americans -- I think the only person who can truly do that is bin Laden, not through more violence as threatened in the tape but through surrender.  Again, even if it means an unjust death (and my opinion on that matter is irrelevant -- I neither know the truth not can change it) that death may be worth it, especially if it could bring an end to the American atrocities.  Allah (swt), however, knows best. (and mujaahid, I would be careful when establishing such firm categories of blame for the current tragedy.  After all, only Allah (swt) can do so accurately and without error.) wassalam

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/15/01 at 00:51:39
so I was surprised at the guest house and that it is very clean and comfortable. If Mullah Omar sleeps on the floor, why can't they? Osama's caves look better than the Afghan mud houses. [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anonymous
12/15/01 at 01:24:15
assalam alaikum, I agree with you Cara - I don't think I could bear the thought of anyone else being killed because a foreign government was looking for me. I also don't believe that there is an anti-Muslim conspiracy -- anti-Muslim sentiment, perhaps, but not a conspiracy.  We should all be very careful about what we say, especially when we personally do not know the truth.  Now unless the person who found the tape or someone very very close to bin Laden is a member of this message board, I doubt that we will ever know all of the truth.  I do not want to think that a muslim (or even someone who merely calls himself muslim) could have committed such a horrendous crime, but I cannot, at this point, yet rule this possibility out.   I am confused and upset by the whole situation. As for the Taliban, I agree that the US has dealt with them harshly.   However, there is something wrong with a regime that outlaws boxing because it demeans the human spirit, yet whips people in the street due to some minor infraction.  I know this is the case, because I have friends who have witnessed these whippings.  The Prophet (pbuh) never behaved in such a manner, and I am personally appalled that other people will justify this islamically.  The Prophet (pbuh) taught Islam with compassion and mercy -- this is what we should ask from our leaders. The Taliban had a wonderful goal; that is, to establish a truly Islamic state.  The results, I fear, fell far short of that goal.   Nevertheless, I ask that God reward their intentions and forgive their infractions.   May he do that for us all. wassalam

Re: Bin Laden Tape
bhaloo
12/15/01 at 01:55:19
slm This was an interesting email. US urged to detail origin of tape As Muslim doubts grow over authenticity, special effects experts say fake would be relatively easy to make Steven Morris Saturday December 15, 2001 The Guardian The White House yesterday came under pressure to give more details of the video which purports to show Osama bin Laden admitting his part in the September 11 attacks. There was growing doubt in the Muslim world about the authenticity of the film while special effects experts said computer technology made it possible to fake such a video. Unless the US gives more information about how the tape was found or provides more technological details about it, doubts are bound to linger. On the face of it the video is the "smoking gun" that proves Bin Laden's part in the murder of more than 3,000 people in the World Trade Centre and Pentagon attacks. President Bush yesterday called it a "devastating declaration of guilt for this evil person". The 40-minute poor-quality tape, apparently shot with a camcorder, shows Bin Laden telling a visiting Muslim cleric details of the planning for the attack and his delight in the carnage. According to US officials the tape was found in a house in Jalalabad, eastern Afghanistan, and handed to the Pentagon by an unnamed person or group. Officials say Mr Bush first watched the tape in November but release was delayed until it could be authenticated. Independent translators were used to make sure the US could not be accused of twisting the words of the men on the film. But for many the explanation is too convenient. Some opponents of the war theorise that the Bin Laden in the film was a lookalike, others claim images of him had been manipulated. It was also pointed out that it was surprising that a man with the ability to organise the attacks on America would be naive enough to confess on tape. And some observers point out that Bin Laden appears to be wearing a ring on his right hand. In previous film of Bin Laden released by him, he has worn no jewellery apart from a watch. Riaz Durrani, a spokesman for Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, which spearheaded pro-Taliban rallies in Pakistan, said: "This videotape is not authentic. The Americans made it up after failing to get any evidence against Osama." Legal experts in the US said that prosecutors seeking to bring Bin Laden to justice would certainly be keen to produce the tape but might struggle to prove its authenticity. Henry Hingson, a former president of the national association of criminal defence lawyers, said: "In this day and age of digital wizardry, many things can be done to alter its veracity." On the other hand it would be foolish to fake a video confession, knowing that if Bin Laden is ever tried his defence team will have experts pore over the video. Sean Broughton, director of the London-based production company Smoke and Mirrors and one of Britain's leading experts on visual effects, said it would be relatively easy for a skilled professional to fake a video of Bin Laden. The first step would be to transfer images shot on videotape on to film tape. Distortion or "noise" and graininess would be removed. A "morphing package" would then be used to manipulate the image on a computer screen. Using such a package it is possible to alter the subject's mouth and expressions to fit in with whatever soundtrack is desired. The final step is to put the "noise" and graininess back on and transfer the doctored images on to videotape. In a recent advert that Smoke and Mirrors made for a US insurance company, the technique was used to place Bill Clinton's head on an actor's body for comic effect. Mr Broughton said that while it would be relatively easy to fake a Bin Laden video, to fool the top experts was much more difficult. "There are perhaps 20 people in America who would be good enough to fool everybody. To find someone that good and make sure they kept quiet would probably be pretty difficult." Bob Crabtree, editor of the magazine Computer Video, said it was impossible to judge whether the video was a fake without more details of its source. "The US seems simply to have asked the world to trust them that it is genuine." Mr Bush said it was "preposterous for anybody to think this tape was doctored". He added: "Those who contend it's a farce or a fake are hoping for the best about an evil man. This is Bin Laden unedited. This is... the Bin Laden who murdered the people. This is a man who sent innocent people to their death." The foreign secretary, Jack Straw, insisted there was "no doubt it is the real thing". http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,619188,00.html

Re: Bin Laden Tape
explorer
12/15/01 at 06:35:42
[quote] Someone has to do something to stop the Americans -- I think the only person who can truly do that is bin Laden, not through more violence as threatened in the tape but through surrender.[/quote] [slm] Surrender of Bin Laden would never, I repeat, never, stop the US bombing. Just before the bombing started Bush himself stated the handing over of Bin Laden wasn't enough and they planned to target all Al-Qaeda members and the entire Taliban. The Taliban and Bin Laden all knew that, hence their resolve to live to fight another day - if they're going down, then go down fighting and try take as many enemy soldiers with you. The US always wanted Taliban gone, so no trace of shariah can exist in Afghanistan. The WTC attacks was a catalyst for the process. Bin Laden or no Bin Laden, the US was going to bomb the Taliban into oblivion anyway. [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/16/01 at 17:08:51
<Surrender of Bin Laden would never, I repeat, never, stop the US bombing. Just before the bombing started Bush himself stated the handing over of Bin Laden wasn't enough and they planned to target all Al-Qaeda members and the entire Taliban> JAZAAKULLAH KHAIR EXPLOERER!!!! Your are EXACTLY right! The taleban, the khilafah state, was the target, not bin laadin, he was the excuse, if he surrendered, they would have STILL bombed the taleban relentlessly!!! Bin Laaden is the scapegoat to keep public opinion on their side. If he gave himself up, they would have found some other excuse.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anonymous
12/16/01 at 00:13:55
[center][color=blue]*A MUST SEE!*[/color][/center] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Look how easy it is to fabricate a video.. Look at this Bush video. In about 2 hours only, a high school student and I fabricated a video clip of Bush speaking. We were surprised how easy it was .. we changed what he said and added subtitles of the new talk .. Think how easy it would be for Hollywood professionals!! Click here and be patient and you will see that videos on computers cannot be used as evidence because they can be changed and fabricated .. [url=http://members.optushome.com.au/okandil/bush.asf]*Video*[/url] We made Bush say: "Thousands of Arab Americans who committed these acts and those who harbour them are held accountable .. make no mistake" In reality, Bush didn't say that .. but later in the tape in a part we have not included excluded harming those "Thousands of Arab Americans who love the American flag" So we have changed what's said to something else Wassalamu Alaikum Osama and the high school student - Sydney - Australia

Re: Bin Laden Tape
momineqbal
12/16/01 at 01:08:40
[slm], Muslims I think need some  deep soul searching thinking. Many of us seem to view  the Seerah of our Rasul (saw) in  fast forward motion (like we watch a movie in our VCR!).  We never seem to try and think that what action did Rasul (saw) take under what circumstances. We just seem to know that he did military jihad so we want to do military jihad, he established a state in madina, so  we want to establish a khilafah. No one seems to think how much hard work, patience and forbearance did our Rasul (saw) show, how much he did to prepare to reach a stage where he was with the help of Allah able to do these things. Can you imagine the condition of that tenderest of hearts when he watched his fellow muslims being tortured, banished, killed, secluded with sanctions, yet he signed a treaty which provisioned that if someone from muslims went to makkah they need not be returned back, but if anyone came to madina from among makkans he must be returned. In both cases muslims were suffering! The example in  our Rasul (saw) is not only what he did, but how he did things. Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is with themselves. We need to study the Seerah more deeply than we have. The kind of linear thinking muslims possess today , I  think its  a major major weakness and is only going to cause more hardships. We need  to be able to consider things together with all the variables invloved and all the exponentials of those variables. I am sure the algebraic formula (which I am sure isn't linear) is there somewhere to be derived. We should go up a grade in our thinking. Wassalam

Re: Bin Laden Tape
BroHanif
12/16/01 at 06:56:14
AWW, [quote]Say what you will but Osama dying at the hands of the U.S. doesn't bother me much because of him more than 3,000 Afghanis have died. Yes, I know, I know, it was the U.S's bombs, they have the first responsibility but Osama comes in second after the U.S and it's allies for the civilian deaths. I think Osama bin Laden is selfish.[/quote] Why do you say this Sis ? Who sent in the muslim army to Bosnia, CheyChan, Philistine and Kosovo ? It wasn't Saudia or any other muslim country. At least the Taliban/Osama had the guts to do something and not watch our innocent brothers and sisters get brutally killed. A muslims is not known by his nationnality, whether one is Afghani or Bosnian we are all the same. Yes we feel loss at the deaths of the 3,000 shaheeds but who is to blame, surely not just one man. I think we all have our faults and we are all selfish the muslim ummah being the first. If we muslims lived by the quran and sunnah then there would be fewer problems. Right now just look at the pathtic state of the muslims, we are disunited as every and have an eye for power. The shabas were few in power but together in unity. After the death of Hazrat Usman the sword has been taken out of its sheath and will not be placed back in. Salaams Hanif

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Hania
12/16/01 at 13:57:50
slm Looks like this discussion has diverged slightly from the original topic but I think I will give my input if anyone is not too angry to listen. Is everyone calm…if not take a deep breath, count to ten, breath out, phewwwww doesn’t that feel better? No? Well if you’re still angry stick your head in a bucket full of ice..cool down. But if are you bloated from too much Eid food then loosen those pants, release some gas and relax. [color=red] *[/color]As for the Bin Laden tape, hmmm, I doubt that would ever stand up as evidence in an IMPARTIAL court of law, personally I found the footage blurred and hazy. But I am sure if Bin Laden was caught and tried in US/UK the tapes authenticity would not be questioned because the US/UK already find him guilty and would perhaps seek revenge rather than justice. [color=red] *[/color]I understand Sister[color=red] Saleema’s [/color]indifference towards Osama Bin Laden. If Osama Bin Laden was involved with the September 11 attacks and the bombing of the embassy in Kenya ’98 then these acts can not be represented as a part of Jihad or Islam. [color=blue] Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbeliveers) who are fighting them (and) because they (believers) have been wronged, and surely Allah is able to give them (believers) victory (V.22:39)[/color] From the verse I understand that fighting is permitted against those disbeliveers who start the fighting against you. The killing of the people in the towers and the embassy were part of a premeditated act and ARE NOT acts of Jihad or part of Islamic belief. The muslims that condone the acts are going against the teachings of the Quraan. [color=red] *[/color]I also completely agree with[color=red] explorer’s [/color]comments. The US wants the whole Al-Qaeda network and Taliban destroyed, so the handing over of Mr Laden would not cease US bombing. Besides, before the US started bombing, didn’t the Taliban offer to hand over Osama in exchange for sufficient evidence that proved Osama’s guilt? The US never complied to the deal because ‘we don’t make deals’… Since US is attacking Muslims in Afghanistan the Jihad is now permissible. Muslims fighting against US are correctly fighting for Islam. [color=blue] Permission to fight is given to those (i.e. believers against disbeliveers) who are fighting them (V.22:39). Fighting was made obligatory – (1)against those who start the fighting against you (Muslims)… as meantioned in Surah Al-Baqarah(II), Al-Imran(III) and Tauba(IX) Jihad is ordained for you though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know (V.2:216) Let those who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter, fight in the Cause of Allah; and whoso fights in the Cause of Allah and is killed or gets victory, we shall bestow on him a great reward. (V.4:74) [/color] [color=red] * [/color]I agree with [color=red] Hanif’s [/color]last words. We are disunited as ever. Muslims are going to war against each other...what a sin a Muslims can commit. I hope I haven't offended anyone in what I said, if I have please forgive me, please Allah forgive me. wa'salam Hania

Re: Bin Laden Tape
bhaloo
12/17/01 at 01:49:18
slm I was out most of the day, and I come back and I see a bunch of nonsense posts in here, those were deleted.  This isn't the place for such childish behavior, nor is this the place to insult others.  I have ZERO tolerance for that behavior.  Please review the rules of the board that you agreed to abide by when you joined.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Learner
12/17/01 at 17:27:02
Eleven Questions about the Osama Video By Prof. Khurshid Ahmad** The much trumpetted Ben Ladin Video has just been released (13th Dec. mid-night, UK time) after a lot of psychological fanfare and a plethora of pre-meditated and engineered comments to lend credence to it. But after carefully seeing and listening to the video on the CNN for an hour one remains as confused, uninformed and unenlightened. It is like a road from nowhere to nowhere. There are various questions that must be probed before it can even be considered as a ‘candidate for evidence’. First question relates to the quality of the video. It is amateurish, crude, hazy, and on critical points almost inaudible. Why was such a Video made at all and for whose benefit? The suggestion that it was made for recruitment purposes is not even worth considering. The quality and content both belie that suggestion. Dialogues, facial expressions and lip-movements did not synchronize on a number of occasions which suggest some kind of tampering and doctoring – total or partial. The tape has to be examined by experts to establish its worth and authenticity. On the face of it this does not seem to be a genuine piece and serious doubts are being expressed about its authenticity all the world over. The second question relates to the timing of the video-tape.  Internal evidence and reference to Ramadhan suggest that it was recorded in early Ramadhan, with alleged predictions of further events in the remaining part of Ramadhan. The total absence of any drinks , snacks, qahwa, tea, dates etc, throughout the first five-sixth part of the show is unexceptional in view of the Arab custom.  This also suggests that the recording took place in the month of Ramadhan – no drinks throughout the meeting except at the end when iftar (breakfast) takes place in a rather clouded manner. If this is the case then the fact that Ramadhan began on 16th November while the video is reported to have been seen , according to one report in CNN programme on CROSS FIRE, by President Bush in early November is fatal of its being recorded this year, after 11th September.  The other  report in ‘The Independent’ (December 14) suggests the video recorded on 9th November.  That too is a week before Ramadhan.   In any case it could not but be an earlier video on which new conversation might have been super-imposed. This would have to be examined scientifically and objectively determined, as modern technology has no problem with such doctoring. Thirdly, the possibility of recording of such a damning confession on 9th November after over a month bombing (began 7th October) and no reference to that aggression son Afghanistan is impossible.  Who would make that confession when the fall of Mazar-e-Zharif was imminent? Fourthly, how could an interview/meeting taking place in Jalalabad on 9th November fail to capture the state of the war on that day?  How could it be tapped in that grim situation?  How could it be found out before the fall of Jalalabad and reach USA in mid-November?  Is this not a fatal blunder by those who concocted the story. Fifthly, the question is if the Video was available in November, then why  is it being  released on 13th December after destroying Afghanistan and inducting American’s nominated government on that country?  It has been reported that it was found in some abandoned Ben Laden house. But till 8th November the Taliban had held the ground everywhere and even Mazare Sharif fell on10th November. How such a revealing/confessional video could have been found before 3rd November when only air-bombing was being made and no ground operation had even taken place? Sixthly, who is the other “Shaikh’ in the conversation? He is not from the al-Qaeda in Afghanistan as is clear from the conversation. If he came from Saudi Arabia and returned after the event, where is he now? His evidence is crucial and would be vital to establish the authenticity of the video. Can he be located in Saudi Arabia? Can he be called to substantiate the discussion? What effort has been made in this direction? From his looks, age, dress, manner of sitting and talking, he does not look like a ‘Shaikh’ at all. He gives the impression of being a ‘student’ or a ‘Ben Laden fan’, not a Shaikh, who is supposed to be a tribal leader or a scholar. His statements are more obnoxious and intriguing – why can’t he be located and called for evidence?. Seventhly, the transcript now published in ‘The Independent’ shows that the “Shaikh” is reported to have quoted a question from Shaikh Bahrani as follows: “How is Shaikh bin Laden?”  Now any one familiar with Arab custom would know that an Arab would never address another he knows intimately by his sir name as is in practice in the West.  Ben Laden is not Osama’s name – it is the family name.  Every Arab would say “How is Shaikh Osama?” or even call him by his kunniyyah as father of so and so, but NEVER as Ben Laden?  This is fatal to the authenticity of the whole conversation.       Eighthly, that some of the quotations from the Qur’an and Hadith have been mixed up. Then quotations are incomplete and even garbled. This is not expected of Ben Laden or any Shaikh. Such amateurism is totally unexpected from those knowledgeable about the Islamic sources. Ninthly, there is a reference to Egytptian TV showing women’s jubilation on the WTC tragedy.  There is no evidence that such a thing was even shown on Egyptian TV or any Arab TV channel. There was a clipping shown on CNN with reference to Palestinians in Ghaza but none on any  Egyptian or Arab channel. Even the one about Palestinians has been challenged (John Snow, presenter, BBC Channel 4 News) and is alleged to be a repeat of what happened on the occasion of the Gulf War. But the reference to Egyptian TV showing such jubilation exposes the miscarriage of the doctoring! The tenth question is that the dialogue is spiced by reference to ‘dreams’ and ‘visions’ spread over a period of one year and coming from several persons, including a woman.. This may be common to the ‘Sufi way’ or the Hollywood episodes, but is totally out of tune with the Salafi tradition to which Osama belongs. It is totally at odds with the intellectual culture of the persons involved. Whatever material is available about Osama ben Laden and his people, this is incongruous with their mode of thought and expression. Prima facie this seems to be something transplanted to give it mystical religious credence. And finally, the expression of appreciation or otherwise after an event – however reprehensible or even disgusting – is no proof of involvement in or engineering of an activity. The leaders of American Avengelical Right, like Pat Buchanan and others are on record putting a particular gloss over the 11th September events. Such reactions, even if so expressed, do not constitute a conclusive proof of planning and participation. These and other concerns make the alleged evidence from this video highly circumspect and doubtful. And it is a maxim of law that the benefit of doubt wherever it exists goes in favour of the accused and not the accuser. As far as the mainstream of the Muslims is concerned, they have no reservation that if Osama ben Laden and his group are responsible for the 11th September events, they should be punished. But their guilt must be properly established first and this must be done through due process of law.  You cannot be accuser, prosecutor, judge and executioner.  Instead of adopting the just course of bringing Osama or whoever is responsible for this crime, to the judicial process, preferably under international arrangement, as is being done for the war criminal Yugoslavian President Milosovich, the USA has opted for an equally criminal path of revenge and counter-terrorism – and that too not merely against the alleged suspects but against a whole country, its government and people, which has led to the destruction of a country and massacre of thousands of innocent people..   All human beings are equal and the lives of poor brown Afghans are as precious as the lives of rich white Americans. Even a just cause does not entitle an Osama ben Laden or a George Bush to spill innocent blood. And that is the crime which is being committed with impunity. That is our real concern, for as the Qur’an says: killing of even one innocent person is like killing the entire human race. **Prof. Khurshid Ahmad is Chairman, Institute of Policy Studies, Islamabad, and Former Federal Minister and Senator, Government of Pakistan.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
explorer
12/17/01 at 17:46:21
[slm] The video debate will go on and on for years, as will who was really behind the 9/11 attacks.  In some quarters these are likely to become fascinations similar to if Elvis is still alive, aliens in Roswell, did man really land on the moon etc. Personally I'm still skeptical about its authenticity, after all this the country that brought the world hollywood. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Tom Cruise dressed up as bin laden. Hollywood is good at confusing people and turning one person into another. Remember Mrs Doubtfire? :)

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/17/01 at 18:55:06
[slm] God knows what the truth is. I am more confused than ever. What he says makes sense and what Alya_A said made sense to me too. But either way, Osama shouldn't have gone on a run and instead fought with his forces. It's not like he has to worry about state affairs that he needs to protect himself. Those Afghanis lives are just as precious as he thinks his is. [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/18/01 at 16:47:37
Saleema my sister, i just wanted to say that according to a leading taleban figure today, he said Bin aadin is NOT on the run and is in fact leading a fierce guerilla war in afghanistan as we speak. Who do we believe? The west who say he is running? Of the muslims who say he is fighting? We are together in this, muslim and muslim, even the non-muslims of truth and justice can see the true agenda of this war. Together we should stick together, the people of truth, and make sure the evil powers that rule do not yet again ruin even more nations for thier own agenda's, i.e colonialism.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anonymous
12/19/01 at 12:43:30
= I just wanted to say to Cara that I totally agree with you.   I am a Muslim, but I seem to have completely different views than all the Muslims I come in contact with.  Yes, I know that some people are just anti-American policy, but many people that I have met are anti-American and very pro-Taliban.  I agree that the Taliban had a great idea, but it turned out horrible.  I don't believe that it is a TRUE Islamic state.  I am not trying to say that the US is perfect, but I do not think it is this evil empire that so many Muslims that I have met seem to think it is.  It really upsets me to meet people living in America who are anti-American.  Go somewhere else.  I don't mean for that to offend people, but if you are living and America and think that America is so bad and Afganistan is so wonderful.  Please go live there and be happy.   Why would you want to stay somewhere that you were so against.  I love living in America.  I love having the freedom to practice Islam the way I believe I should and to live somewhere where I can have an opinion.   I have been overseas to countries where you don't talk too loud about the government because you can go to jail.  You cannot voice your opinion.  Truthfully, I believe that America is a friend to Muslims.  They may have certian policies that are not so good or even bad, but the American government is not this secret society of Muslim haters.  Centries ago when the Roman Catholics swept across Europe many Muslims were pushed from their homes and killed.  I think that this is a deep rooted hurt that many Muslims hold on to and therefore this hate, even if not explained as for being for  this reason, is why so many Muslims feel that Christian societies are out to get them.  It is just like the slaves here in America.  No matter what happens to better things for the ancestors of the slaves there are still people out there that cannot let go of that hurt and hate.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
NewJehad
12/19/01 at 13:13:12
Anonymous? America a friend of Muslims? Are you talking about the same America that wiped out two cities in Japan with nukes? Are you talking about the same America that used napalm and agent orange in Vietnam? Are you talking about the same America that terrorises most of the countries in south America? Are you talking about the same America that has enslaved most of the world with the World bank and IMF? Are you talking about the same America that gives Israel the money and weapons to kill children and keep pretty Muslim and Christian ladies in brothels only to be let out when the owner sells them to another brothel? Are you talking about the same America that has so far killed over 1.5 million Muslims in Iraq? Are you talking about the same America who is doing what it is doing to Afghanistan right now? The one who is helping the Jewish ruler of Uzbeckistan stay in power, a ruler who has band hijab and salat for people under the age of 40? Are you talking about the same America who has helped people like Gul Aga the famous paedophile(he is famous for marrying a little boy when he was governer of khandaha) gain control of parts of Afghanistan and is helping him stay in power and rule it? Nahh there must be another country called America that you are talking about, cause no one can be unsure that the nation that I know as America is the most evil empire in recorded history and a clear enemy of Allah and his prophet and all those who believe in them. I have never heard any one say to a white Christian who lives in the west, if you don't like it here leave. have any of you? When a white Christian say's anti American stuff, it is taken as advice. When we do it is taken as treson.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
BroHanif
12/19/01 at 15:11:01
[quote]Truthfully, I believe that America is a friend to Muslims.  [/quote] And which muslims are those...??? How can one even say this when it is through clear American policy that millions of kids have died all over the world, due to the landmines policy. I'm not just speaking for the muslim kids I'm speaking for everyone. Salaams Hanif

Re: Bin Laden Tape
mujaahid
12/19/01 at 16:44:39
Anonymous "but if you are living and America and think that America is so bad and Afganistan is so wonderful.  Please go live there and be happy." We would LOVE to go thier IF america lifted the sanctions and stopped the bombings. If your great freedom loving country gave afghanistan back its freedom by the US simply getting up and getting the hell otu of their, i would LOVE to go and live thier. At the moment YOUR nation, by bombing it and sanctioning it, is making it a very miserbale place to be. I would LOVE to go to live in a peaceful afghanistan, run under the taleban, with the fredom for the talibs to trade with whom they like without US sanctions. <Why would you want to stay somewhere that you were so against.  I love living in America.> Thats because america are not dropping bombs on you!!! <I love having the freedom to practice Islam the way I believe> So let the taliban and afghan people have the freedom to live under the islaam THEY choose! <I should and to live somewhere where I can have an opinion.   I have been overseas to countries where you don't talk too loud about the government because you can go to jail.> Yes, the same "governments" which the US supports to control the people of these countries to ensure american interests take precedence! <Truthfully, I believe that America is a friend to Muslims.> LOL!!! Yeah, such a great freind to muslims that they kill 600'000 of our children in iraq, they bomb afghanistan to the ground, they bomb Muslim nations such as Sudan, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, Lebanon, to name but a few!!! Yeah  what a great freind we muslims have in the US of A!!!!

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Umar
12/19/01 at 16:59:20
[quote], Muslims I think need some  deep soul searching thinking. Many of us seem to view  the Seerah of our Rasul (saw) in  fast forward motion (like we watch a movie in our VCR!).  We never seem to try and think that what action did Rasul (saw) take under what circumstances. We just seem to know that he did military jihad so we want to do military jihad, he established a state in madina, so  we want to establish a khilafah. No one seems to think how much hard work, patience and forbearance did our Rasul (saw) show, how much he did to prepare to reach a stage where he was with the help of Allah able to do these things. Can you imagine the condition of that tenderest of hearts when he watched his fellow muslims being tortured, banished, killed, secluded with sanctions, yet he signed a treaty which provisioned that if someone from muslims went to makkah they need not be returned back, but if anyone came to madina from among makkans he must be returned. In both cases muslims were suffering! The example in  our Rasul (saw) is not only what he did, but how he did things. Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is with themselves. We need to study the Seerah more deeply than we have. The kind of linear thinking muslims possess today , I  think its  a major major weakness and is only going to cause more hardships. We need  to be able to consider things together with all the variables invloved and all the exponentials of those variables. I am sure the algebraic formula (which I am sure isn't linear) is there somewhere to be derived. We should go up a grade in our thinking. Wassalam[/quote] as-salaam alaikum, Well said, I agree =). Just want to say that with regards to the algebraic formula, some can be linear, if the highest exponent is not greater than 1. ----------------- Im a muslim revert, and is still trying to adjust my way of life according to Islam. Please correct me if in any case I post something that is not right.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/19/01 at 20:30:34
It is just like the slaves here in America.  No matter what happens to better things for the ancestors of the slaves there are still people out there that cannot let go of that hurt and hate. What exactly do you mean by that? Look at your mentality! There are no slaves in America anymore! They are the descendant of slaves! Better things for them? Name some things then! I can't believe no one caught these last words of yours. Oh in America you have to freedom to be prejudice too. *rolling eyes* Go live in a poor black neighborhood and tell me what the goverment has done for them that is so wonderful? 60s and the 70s weren't that long ago you know, people seem to forget that. Tell that to James Byrd who was dragged by white supermacists from the back of their trucks and murdered. There is still deep rooted hatred in this society against africans americans. More black kids drop out of high school than white kids do, not because they are dumb or that they don't want to become CEOs of big companies. it's because the roadblocks placed in their paths are still there and the goverment has not done much! Read malcolm x's biograhpy, read ........ I'm so angry and emotional right now I can't even type... [wlm]

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/19/01 at 22:40:08
Hey folks, some of you are starting to sound down right mean. I read the last few posts and it sounds like a pack of wolves. I do not mean any disrespect. I really don't. There are several dozen countries in the world. Not all hate Americans. Some do. I am part of America and I am a friend to anyone who exhibites, Love, peace, kindness and mercy. To others I am not a friend but I am also not an enemy. Mujaahid, I don't know about all your other points as I am not informed of all kf them, but as for the Japan one, I believe they bombed us first. America is not perfect by any means but it is not the worst either. As for Christian / Muslim ... and ... black / white etc etc etc. People can make all the excuses they want. People can blame all they want. If you make A happy then B is mad. If you make C happy then A is mad and it goes on and on and one. Hatred and lack of respect for another is awful. PLEASE I Love all of you as brothers and sister. I am begining to tire of folks jumping on others as if they were a pack of wolves and reading into things that are not there. Mis-quoting and all. Who cares about the past we can do nothing about it but live for today and make sure the bad part of the past is not repeated. Show mercy, love, peace and kindness to each other here in Jannah and to those around us. We don't have to agree but anyone who doubts me look back on this last page and see, looks like a pack of wolves at times. If we try hard enough I bet we can make a list of the good and evils of almost every country. I myself see both good and bad in both  the US and the Taliban.  I think what Anon at one point was getting at is if you don't like it here in the US then go somewhere else. If someone came to my home and complained about me I would gladly take them to the nearest motel. They don't have to stay with me if they don't want to. Don't sleep in my beds and eat my food then put me down and complain about me. Opps someone is at the door I'll come back to this. But honestly I don't mean this in a rude way but folks look back over some of the things you said and how you put things. To me it sounds like a pack of angry wolves. No disrespect meant.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
se7en
12/19/01 at 23:19:37
bismillah as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, I want everyone here to focus on these comments: [quote]You know when I came here I came to learn and make new friends. From the Sister's cafe and the Bebzi boards I found this. Felt truly welcomed. But as I got into the board and ventured out to other sections and eventually came to this room it was like a whole different web site. A totally different atmosphere.[/quote] [quote]I am begining to tire of folks jumping on others as if they were a pack of wolves and reading into things that are not there.[/quote] I want you all to think *deeply* about these above comments.  Is the behavior described here becoming of a Muslim?  Is this how we should speak to *anyone*, let alone a non-Muslim guest whom we have welcomed into the Madina, in the hopes that she might learn and appreciate a bit more about Islam? Emotions are understandable, especially when it comes to topics you are passionate about.  But the abrasive, harsh comments we make, those things we say without foresight or knowledge, we will be held accountable for.  Not only for the words themselves, but for the consequences they reap - the image they portray of Islam, of Muslims. I am not your mother, and I do not take any pleasure in acting like it.  I ask you to please, use *basic adab* when speaking.  This includes not speaking when you are angry, taking the time to consider your words, and speaking to people in a way they understand.  Please do express your feelings and thoughts.. but in a way that is *befitting* of a Muslim.  Take into consideration what others say, think about their comments, and respond intelligently. Thank you. :)  Your cooperation is much appreciated :) wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
bhaloo
12/20/01 at 00:25:50
slm [quote]Please do express your feelings and thoughts.. but in a way that is *befitting* of a Muslim.  Take into consideration what others say, think about their comments, and respond intelligently. [/quote] Exactly, I know some of you feel very strongly about certain issues, but explain yourself with good manners and not resort to anger and insulting comments.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
akbalkhan
12/20/01 at 09:02:34
As Salamu Alayka, The only interesting thing about likening any Muslims to wolves is that the comments that elicited such a wolf-like response had the nature of the wolves attraction- foul smelling carrion, or the weak, old and diseased among a herd.  Aside from that, there is no situation in which a Muslim should be likened to an animal.  I just finished reading a hadith re: Umar ibn Khattab, RA, and his words moments prior to his stabbing.  He said, "the dogs have bitten, or eaten me."  He also expressed his satisfaction at having been killed by a non-Muslim.  This is the only hadith I recall reading where a human being was likened to an animal. Sr. Saleema, I did notice the comments about 'the slaves' and 'going back to where you came from', and to tell you the truth, I was and am quite embarassed and offended by such comments on this board or anywhere.  Like I have written before (but maybe erased later) is that I am a descendant of the original people who met Columbus, and that line is passed down through some of the original African slaves brought to the 'Americas.'  When I hear of people, whether with intelligence or lacking, saying that we should forget the past, or there should be no issue with todays ramifications and residues of past slavery, it makes me think of how little consequence is paid to the prospect of 'what if it had been your family?'  When I hear of people saying to me or anyone else to go back to or seek refuge in a different country if the policies and attitudes prevailing are unsavory, it makes me think that the people saying this have no regard for the fact that the original inhabitants of this country told the same thing to Columbus and later generations, but were met with torture, rape, murder and colonization.  Those voices that suggest leaving this country if you do not approve of its' policies and attitudes, and that post-slavery enviro-economic discrimination is a thing that should be left and forgotten are the voices of the colonizers themselves, transplanted into an acquiescent group of relatively recent immigrants and old sympathizers that do not even recognize or consider the centuries old battle among the indigenous of every colonized area of this world, to regain recognition of past atrocities, and compensation for the stealing of land and wealth that continues today. As a Muslim, I am offended by the alliance that Anon and Caraj established with the kafr U.S., for if you had any authority over anyone but yourselves, it would indeed be an alliance, and your disregard for the fact that even todays residents of the 'Americas' have no established right to even be here, none the less claim the moral standing to then tell others who should or should not be here. It kind of reminds me of the part of the Quran that talks about the people who come to the gardens early, and who conspire with each other to hurry and pick the best fruits so that the poor and needy who come to pick later will have none of the good fruit or any even.  People who say things like if you do not like the rules of America then leave seem to be of the ones who would like to keep others from reaping the fruits of this garden called 'America'.  But it is that those who have been or would be forced to leave are more deserving of it than they are, and a terrible punishment is in store for those who would deter others from its benefit, unless they repent, and seek forgiveness. Regarding the Shiekh Usama ibn Ladin tape, a Saudi cleric has come forward and said that it is a fake, someone named Sheikh Shuaibi?   I know that Sheikh Usama is and has been fighting jihad for the past 25 years or so, and thereby I cannot even clean his boots, nonetheless criticize him or implicate him in any matter I would wish to bare witness to on the Yawmi Deen. I personally believe that Video's and T.V.'s are part of the fitna's of this dunya and the age we live in, and it holds true especially when it causes such divisions and discussions as it is even causing here. Its no longer a matter of opinion or discussion when you attend to or dispute someone's innocence or guilt on the deaths of hundreds of people, according the evidence not produced or substantiated by the rules set forth in Shariat.  It becomes a matter of humazah and lumuzah.  Let me remind all of you who are deciding against the advice of the one better than all of us, Rasoolullah, salallahu alayhi wa salm, "Waylul likuli humazahtil lumuzuh" (Woe! to every scandal monger and backbiter) ********** And be careful of sounding like a colonizer or bigot. Regards, QAK

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/20/01 at 10:17:12
I WAS NOT likening Muslims to wolves. See this is what I mean about mis-quotes and reading into things that are not there. After reading back a few posts I would of said that not matter if they were Muslim, Christian, Jewish. Hindu, black or white or red or purple. Male, female. Or even my own family or children or Whoever. As se7en quoted me from an earlier post, I came here to make new friends and learn. And although I have learned much from many kind people here at the boards I am also learning is you must watch everything you say. And this only confirms what I learned as a child. That is, NO MATTER what one does or says, you cannot make everyone happy. As you make one group of people happy another group gets angry. And in my experience that last comment of mine is not limited to any group other than ... the human race. Also I cannot do anything about any race's or cultures past. I was not there and I didn't do it. All I can do is learn from it and be the best person I can be and learn and be as peaceful, kind, loving and such to those around me now. I cannot go back a few decades much less a few hundred years.  There is something I read a poem or thought and it said, ... "Yesterday is gone and tomorrow is not promised. That is why they call today the 'Present' " As for if you don't like the rules and such etc etc etc of the where one lives, that would apply to school, employment or any thing in life. If you are complaining about the condtions of employment do you think your employer is going to force you to stay? Would not a teacher send you to the principle? I came to learn and make new friends, not to cause hate and discontent and bad feelings. I have never written anything on these boards with any ill intentions in mind. None whatsoever and I can say that with a true heart. But I think my Medina web site days are over as since I have ventured out of the Sisters cafe and into this board I am feeling sad and hurt and hated and mis-quoted. These feeling I can feel from any religon or any group and even my own family so why subject myself to it here. Se7en and Arshad please accept this as my formal request to delete my board name and password off your Medina Board. I want to thank all the ones who have been so kind and loving and have answered my many questions. I pray all of you will be blessed for your kindness. Salaam

Re: Bin Laden Tape
humble_muslim
12/20/01 at 10:15:18
AA As a muslim, not a non muslim but a muslim, even I am finding this thread getting uglier and uglier.  The question we must all ask ourselves is : are we following the method of the most perfect of all creation, Muhammed (Peace be Upon Him) ? I would say emphtically NO, and I will reference two points in his life to illustrate this. First, the incident at Taif.  Mohammed (PBUH) went to the town of Taif to try to carry his message.  The people of Taif rejected him; they sent thier street urchins to throw stones on him.  So there he was, rejected, hurt, bleeding.  The angel Gabriel came to him and asked him if he should send the angel of the mountain to send a mountain crashing down on Taif and kill everyone there.  Mohammed (PBUH) said not to do that, "as their descendants may accept Islam". So here is Mohammed (PBUH) being directly injured and hurt, both emotiannly and physically, but NOT letting his private pain get in the way of the bigger objective : the carrying of the message.  Whereas on this (and other) threads, I see muslims getting carried away with their emotions, and saying things of NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER for spreading the message. The second example is the story of when Mohammed (PBUH) was in Madinah, and a Jewish woman kept throwing trash on him.  Was his reaction to start complaining about being "offended" or getting some revenge ? NO!!!! When the Jewish womand was sick, he (PBUH) cleaned her house for her!!! ALLAHU AKBAR! ALLAHU AKBAR! ALLAHU AKBAR!  THIS was the example of the man referred to in the Quran as a "mercy for all mankind"! If you can't act in the manner of the Prophet (SAW) and simply want to pick on fights and arguing with non muslims, there are many places on the Interent to go to.  THIS IS NOT SUCH A PLACE, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, AND INSHALAALH NEVER WILL BE. Wasalam, Hamayoun
NS

Re: Bin Laden Tape
humble_muslim
12/20/01 at 10:53:55
"I came to learn and make new friends, not to cause hate and discontent and bad feelings. I have never written anything on these boards with any ill intentions in mind. None whatsoever and I can say that with a  true heart. But I think my Medina web site days are over as since I have ventured out of the Sisters cafe and into this board I am feeling sad and hurt and hated and mis-quoted. These feeling I can feel from any  religon or any group and even my own family so why subject myself to it here. Se7en and Arshad please accept this as my formal request to delete my board name and password off your Medina Board. " Are all you BROTHERS, the heirs to the "mercy for all mankind", now satisfied ?
NS

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/20/01 at 16:36:16
Se7en and Arshad I would like to withdrawl my earlier request to terminate my citizenship. I requested as such out of fustration and that was childish and wrong of me. Thank You.  Cara

Re: Bin Laden Tape
lightningatnite
12/21/01 at 10:43:52
Hi Cara, I apologize on behalf of my Muslim brothers and sisters, for in the heat of debate things are said that oftentimes offend unintentionally.  These events that have occured are perhaps the greatest tribulation Muslims of this generation have seen.  Mainstream newspapers, television reports, and radio shows have become unabashed in their attacks on Islamic belief, peoples, practices.  All the while, Muslims who were born and raised in this country find themselves powerless as special interest groups strip Islamic organizations of their funds, perpetuate military assaults against Muslim populations in the name of fighting terrorism, and impugn the integrity of our most beloved scholars.  Meanwhile, we as Muslims face evil looks on the streets, discrimination in airports and at work, and fear of being suspected as a terrorists wherever we go.  We have become disenfranchised by our Muslim families and brethren in our home countries, and confusion and anger abound as Muslims struggle to present the true image of Islam against insurmountable odds.  Even pre 9/11, the Muslim world was in shambles, poverty-stricken, bereft on knowledge, no political or military power, too incapacitated and humiliated to prevent the desecration of our most holy mosques.  These are indeed frustrating times.  Please do forgive our tongues, for they speak not for our hearts, but for our pain. To my dear brothers and sisters, I ask and pray that Allah give us the ability to bear with patience this times, for assuredly Allah will raise us in levels by it.  Our time for political power is distant, and it will not come about unless the light of Islam is spread in the minds and hearts of the people.  Let us focus our energies towards spreading the simple truths of this deen to those thirsty for the Truth, and assuredly we cannot do enough in this regard.  As for speaking to the non-Muslims, we have to remember that Guidance is only from Allah, and to speak a gentle word of kindness, with a smile, is from our noble traditions.  As the saying goes, Moses was commanded to speak to Pharoah with kind words.  Surely, we are not more noble than Moses, and those misguided among us cannot be more misguided than Pharoah.   Oh Allah, guide us, forgive us, and make our tongues, eyes, ears, and selves be Light. Salam :)

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anik
12/21/01 at 14:39:32
asalaamu alaikum, Sister Cara, I understand how you feel, many a times we all feel the same way as all the different opinions on the board, but take everything with a grain of salt. Many a times we will read things that are not pleasing, diplomatic, and appeasing to us. Maturity you have in you will work only when you avoid something you find as attacking your emotion... thus you will be able to read all kinds of opinion objectively, and not generalize or worry yourself about them. We love to have you here.  Don't leave because of a few misconstrued statements; don't let them get to you.  Looking at things with a critical eye only helps us to understand the world, and learning the lesson of a sort of detached discussion here only helps us to face the real world.  Of course, the admin can trun this board into a super PR no-one-disagrees-strongly, anti-politics, one-sided, flowery board, but this ummah community centre, when I first came, WAS totally different that than the other forums.  It's threads continusously insulted Jews, Indians, Americans as large groups.  But you know what? Its people's opinion, and we have to remember that they are entitled to it, up to and as long as its not *too* hateful, controversial, or pointless to debate.   To everyone: In my *opinion*, the be-all and end-all of this issue is that people need to take a lesson in formal debate and constructive argument, not nose-in-the-air formal reports, but very detached, to-the-point opinions. I wish the world was one big flower garden- no one disagrees and its all lovey-dovey.  I wish the Islamic world was like that, but tough, its a diverse, if not more diverse, world of opinion which points a lot of negative emotion at different people.  Islam here, is untouched because it is a pure and perfect system that, bluntly, doesn't give a dang about what you and I think. This board I gather is to project the flowery side to attract people ot the truth and not hurt them with the harshness of outsid eopinion- why? because people have an immaturity in them which makes them view one opinion as tied into God's Ultimate Path and Truth. Even if the world of muslims go on a wrongful rampage and slaughter all Westerns or declare war on them, and become the world's most biggest terrorists, Islam itself *does not* change, and thus our view of Islam cannot be soured by gossip and talk.  No wonder many muslims view America under that generalization, and Jews as well, and vice versa.  Heck, if I had to see the human example of Islam through the historical actions of muslim rulers in my country of origin, and thought so small-mindedly, I wouldn't have liked Islam at all. So I had to separate religion and current events/politics and only then do we see Islam for what it truly is.  It may seem like I am not condemning the negative opinion and only telling those offended to "toughen up", but I think enough condemnation for bad adaab has gone on and I wanted to balance it with an understanding from all sides. Remember Allah SWT's compassion and mercy and let it reflect the way we speak to each other Insha'Allah, May He guide and keep us. Ameen.  asalamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/21/01 at 21:13:55
I appreciate the things all of you wrote. Thank You.  I wasn't really taking anything personal per say (except on thing when it came to my father and when people try to judge another) But what fustrated me so much was being mis-quoted and some taking something I said out of text. I find such things very counter-productive and fustrating as it causes wasted energy cause then you're busy looking back and re-quoting yourself and such and that hinders going on with the conversation / debate. Don't get me wrong I love a good debate. I just don't like being told I said something I didn't or being told I implyed something I didn't. I don't think any of us do. When such things happen I tend to try to make a correction once then I back off. I like using my energy for helpful things not counter-productive things. Most of you who have read a few or more of my post hopefully know by know I try to speak very specifically and if I am not educated or knowledgable of something I say I am not and say that what I type is an opinion. My only advice (and it goes for me too) Let's all just read posts more careful before we reply and try not to add or take away from someones words or assume or see things that are not meant. I know it is easier said than done. Just Basic Communication 101 I'm the type, if I find I'm wasting energy on things that are not productive I save my energy for something good and walk away. I only have this request, (this applies to anyone in my life) Please don't tell me I said something I did not. And please do not say I meant something I didn't. I'm kind of ornery. I have been know to,  when accused of something to invite all parties involved (unknowing to each other) to invite all to a lunch or meeting.:) You should see the shocked faces  :)  when all show up not knowing the other would be there and me begining the conversation saying, "NOW that we're all here who said what???"  I think I got that way cause I run a business and a farm (and also raised 2 sons myself for 14 yrs) and I have no time for counter-productive silliness.  NOT SAYING ANYONE IS SILLY :) Maybe I am a little to serious at times. Keep in mind I'm 40 yrs old and have children the ages of many of you.(My sons are 22 and almost 24) I have a business and run a small farm as well as my household. I love and enjoy fellowship, learning, joking, laughing, debating and such. I just have little patience for counter-productive stuff.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anik
12/21/01 at 15:38:54
asalaamu alaikum, yeah i totally hear that Caraj, but my love for debate has brought me to problems because I am so argumentative. I think we should all remember that not only are we citizens, but brethren in faith, and we should try to be friends. And I know we can be. asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Anonymous
12/22/01 at 01:55:34
I didn’t read all the posts because they just upset me.   Everyone is getting mad and not completely understanding what the other person is trying to say.  I am not going to post just to have my words misused.  I decided to stay out of this discussion for now on, but I do want to try to explain myself a little bit better because I feel that some of you have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  I am not so good at typing what I am really trying to say.  For one, I am not trying to say it is ok to be prejudice.  I understand how many blacks are upset because of what happened to their ancestors.  It was horrible.  I also understand how that anger can be past on generation to generation.  And I will at some point read Malcolm X’s biography, but I am not talking about the treatment of black people 50 years ago.  I think the major roadblock is a mental one.  I see that mental block in people of all races.  I know it was bad and I know there are still prejudice people that treat black people bad today.  I am not even talking about blacks in the first place.  I was just trying to compare how anger can be held on to by a group of people when they were treated so badly.  I also see how a lot of the Arab countries have so much anger towards certain people or countries because of the wrongs of the past and still the present wrongs being done to them.  My only point I was trying to make when apparently I messed up somewhere was that I don’t think America is out to get Muslims.  I don’t think America is this horrible place.  I love living here.  All I wanted to do was give my opinion and say that I can understand how some of the Muslim countries feel and the Muslims, but I am not going to say I think one group of people are right just because they are Muslims.  There is good and bad everywhere.  I know I got angry before and said things that were a little rude and I apologize.  I think that American was founded on good principles and I believe that the Taliban had great ideas, but everything is so messed up everywhere and the last thing I want to do I argue with everyone about it.  There is enough fighting going on right now.  You may not agree with me and that is fine.  That is what makes people interesting is different views, but the one thing I do agree with all of you on is my love for Islam.  That is why I am going to withdraw from any more discussion on this issue.  I read this message board because I love learning about Islam, not to fight with other Muslims. May peace be with you all.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Caraj
12/22/01 at 02:53:00
Anonymous, would you mind sending me a message? If you prefer not that is fine I understand but if you would I would like that.

Re: Bin Laden Tape
Saleema
12/22/01 at 16:04:27
[slm] Dear Anonymous, I disagree with you on the mental roadblocks issue, however, I would like to hear what you have to say. So please do continue to post messages. I was offended by your first post, but now that you have explained yourself i'm not so offended although i still do not agree. Look at Mujaahid and me. :) We had a few childish insults exchanged. Now we are freinds. :) No one should hold grudges and anger against people for so long. [wlm]

Bin Ladin video: Evidence of Wrong Translation?
bhaloo
12/27/01 at 23:14:49
slm > http://www.wdr.de/tv/monitor/beitraege.phtml?id=379 > > MONITOR No. 485 to 20.12.2001 > > Bin Ladin video: Evidence of Wrong Translation? > > Report:   Georg Restle , Ekkehard Sieker > > Klaus Bednarz: "And the propaganda war continues. In > the past week the American government presented an > amateur video in English translation , which is > flooding the talk shows, and which according to > President Bush is > 'destructive confession.' > > MONITOR procured from the American State Department > the Arab text version of the video tape recording and > got analysis from independent and sworn in Arab-German > linguists and Orientalists. > > And see what they say: "The English translation > presented by the US Government to the world public is > not only partially manipulated, but contains errors. A > report by Ekkehard Sieker and George Restle." > > Main message of the US television station CBS:  The > video is loading, sent away from the pentagon to TV > stations world-wide.  The anchor is certain: This is > the unique proof for the terrorist attacks on 11 > September. > > But in many Arab states skepticism is broad. Does this > video show a confession containing beyond all doubt > knowledge of the attacks by the al-Qaida leader? Does > this video make the war in Afghanistan a certain and > fair war against a mass murderer? For the US > Government the case is unique. > > George W. Bush: "I know, that the video tape is a > devastating confession for this rogue." > > But what does this video really show? The English > translation from the pentagon seems unique. Here bin > Ladin accuses himself quite obviously of the act and > states that he had information in advance of the > attack. But is this translation at all correct? > > We spoke to two translators independently over several > days and allowed them to compare the two video tapes > recordings, examining each possible text > interpretation. The result: > > Dr. Abdel El M. Husseini, Arabist: "I checked the > Pentagon's translation carefully. This translation is > very problematic. It is not identical in the most > important places, in which the complicity of bin Ladin > is proven, to the Arab toungue." > > Example 1: According to the translation, Bin Ladin > says: "we calculated the number who would die in > advance." "in advance", in English: "in advance ". > > Dr. Murad Alami, translator: "It does not say 'in > advance'. This is false. If one proceeds from the > original Arab version, and there are no > misunderstandings, one cannot understand the reason > this was translated this way." > > Beyond that the translators state that the original > recording does not contain in any circumstances a > statement regarding precalculated planning or a > calculation of the number to be killed. > > Example 2: According to translation bin Ladin says: > "We had received a message on the preceding Thursday > that the event would take place on this day." > "preceding ": "previous". > > Dr. Murad Alami translator: "The word 'preceding' does > not exist. The statement that this event would take > place on the day or on this day, is not said in the > original Arab version. " > > Example 3: According to the Pentagon bin Ladin says: > "we required everyone of them to go to America." "we", > in English "we". > > Dr. Murad Alami, translator: "This translation with > 'we' is false. It is the word 'them', in the Arab > original version, which I hear.  The bottom line is > that the recording is incomprehensible at this point." > > > Three examples among many which put the conclusive > force the video in doubt. To confirm this, we spoke to > Hamburg-based Islamic Professor Rotter. > > Professor Gernot Rotter, Islam scientist and Arabist, > institute for Asia and Africa, University of Hamburg: > "Independent of whether bin Ladin's organization was > actively involved in the attacks: This tape is of so > bad a quality that sections of it cannot be understood > at all. And what can be understood, is so taken out of > context that one can glean from it no evidene. The > American translator who prepared the tape have > obviously placed a lot of things in it which they > wanted to hear, which however, after repeated > listening, are not there. " > > Guilty or innocent?  If the US Government wants the > conviction of bin Ladin, then it must submit better > proof. > > Translated from the German by http://www.overthrow.com
NS
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