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how should i HAVE handled it?
shadow493
12/17/01 at 09:01:19
[slm] long time no post! *sigh* ramadan is over and now its back to "normal"... anyways i was stuck with a very very strange situation on eid day... a "brother" was handing out flyers about the 'submitters' website (the people who dont believe in hadith but only the quraan)... and he was a staunch believer in it... so i went up to him and talked with him and i just spread what i believe and why i believed it... should i have taken the flyers away from him or let him keep on going? (if this post breaches the constitution please delete it immediatly)...

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
Anik
12/17/01 at 09:19:24
asalaamu alaikum, here's the tricky part: its our job to stand up for the truth, but this person is a muslim... am I correct? Thus, can we defile him and do this? It will only spark more of a drive to get his word out. Islam says to respect people, even of other faiths. In a muslim country, I guess this is a blasphemy by many people's standards, but correct me if I'm wrong, you have no authority to deal with this.  Otherwise, many "sects" of Islam wouldn't even get a place to practice.  What this means is that we must increase our dawah efforts and spread truth by example as well as preaching. asaalamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
Hania
12/17/01 at 10:45:46
slm I believe in deriving the rule of Allah from the texts of Quraan and hadith so I did not agree with all the points in the submission site but despite this I felt the site did make a valid point: [color=red] *[/color]There are many hadiths that either contradict the Quran or don't make any sense at all. Of the four madhhabs, 75% are identical in their legal conclusions, so where are the other 25% derived from? People differ in the scholarly capacity to understand and deduce the rulings from the Quran and hadith texts. But all of us have been commanded to live them in our lives, in obedience to Allah. We can do this by ourselves or through another: [color=gray] Surat al-Nahl "Ask those who recall, if you know not" (V-16:43) Surat al-Nisa "If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority amoung them, then those of them whose task it is to find out would have known the matter" (V-4:83)[/color] The submision site teaches that we should follow the Quraan instead of the madhhabs. But the prophet (pbuh) is no longer alive to teach us personally, and everything we have from him, whether the hadith or Quran, has been conveyed through Islamic scholars. So it is not a question of whether or not we take our din from scholars, but rather, from WHICH scholars. wa'salam Hania.

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
bhaloo
12/17/01 at 10:59:01
slm The Submitters are not Muslims, but are kafirs.   Here was something brief on them: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/#submitters --------- From islam-qa.com From Sheikh Munajjid Praise be to Allaah. Some people have started to claim that the Sunnah is not a source of legislation. They call themselves “al-Qur’aaniyyeen” and say that we have the Qur’aan, so we take as halaal whatever it allows and take as haraam whatever it forbids. The Sunnah, according to their claims, is full of fabricated ahaadeeth falsely attributed to the Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are the successors of other people about whom the Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us. Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132). The name al-Qur’aaniyyeen does not befit these people, because the Qur’aan tells us, in almost one hundred aayahs, to obey the Messenger  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Obedience to the Messenger  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is considered in the Qur’aan to be a part of obedience to Allaah, may He be glorified. “He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them.” [al-Nisa’ 4:80 – interpretation of the meaning]. The Qur’aan, which they claim to follow, denies the faith of the one who refuses to obey the Messenger  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and does not accept his ruling: “But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisa’ 4:65 – interpretation of the meaning] Their suggestion that the Sunnah is “contaminated” with fabricated ahaadeeth is not valid, because the scholars of this ummah took the utmost care to purify the Sunnah from all alien elements. If they had any doubts about the truthfulness of any narrator, or there was the slightest possibility that he could have forgotten something, this would be sufficient grounds for rejecting a hadeeth. Even the enemies of this ummah have stated that no other nation has paid so much attention to examining its reports and their narrators, especially in the case of reports narrated from the Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). For it to be obligatory to follow a hadeeth, it is sufficient for it to be known that it is a saheeh (authentic, sound) hadeeth narrated from the Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). The Prophet  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was content to convey his message by sending just one of his Companions, which proves that the hadeeth reported by one trustworthy person must be followed. Moreover, we would ask these people: where are the aayaat which tell us how to pray, or which tell us that the obligatory prayers are five times daily, or which tell us about the nisaab on various kinds of wealth for the purpose of zakaah, or about the details of the rituals of Hajj, and other rulings which we can only know from the Sunnah? Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 1/44 ;============================================== Also: Why do we have to follow the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad and not just follow the quraan ? Why do we have to follow a specific Mathab? Praise be to Allaah. The first question may appear strange and somewhat surprising to committed, practising Muslims. How can something which is so obviously one of the bases of Islaam become a matter for discussion and debate? But since the question has been asked, we will present, with the help of Allaah, the principles and bases of the importance of the Sunnah, the obligation to follow it and the ruling concerning those who reject it. By so doing, we will also refute the doubters and the misguided group who call themselves “Qur’aaniyyeen” (the Qur’aan has nothing to do with them!) In sha Allaah this discussion will be of benefit to everyone who wants to understand the truth of the matter. Proof of the importance of the Sunnah (1) The Qur’aan speaks of the importance of the Sunnah, for example: (a) Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:80] Allaah described obedience to the Prophet  (peace be upon him) as being a part of obedience to Him. Then He made a connection between obedience to Him and obedience to the Prophet  (peace be upon him): “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] (b) Allaah warns us not to go against the Prophet  (peace be upon him), and states that whoever disobeys him will be doomed to eternal Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63] (c) Allaah has made obedience to His Prophet a religious duty; resisting or opposing it is a sign of hypocrisy: “”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65] (d) Allaah commands His slaves to respond to Him and His Messenger: “O you who believe! Answer Allaah (by obeying Him) and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life . . .” [al-Anfaal 8:24] (e) Allaah also commands His slaves to refer all disputes to him: “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] (2) The Sunnah itself indicates the importance of the Sunnah. For example: (a) Al-Tirmidhi reported from Abu Raafi’ and others that the Prophet  (peace be upon him) said: “I do not want to see any one of you reclining on his couch and, when he hears of my instructions or prohibitions, saying ‘I don’t accept it; we didn’t find any such thing in the Book of Allaah.’” Abu ‘Eesaa said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. (See Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Shaakir edition, no. 2663). Al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported that the Prophet  (peace be upon him) said: “Would any of you think, reclining on his couch, that Allaah would only describe what is forbidden in the Qur’aan? I tell you, by Allaah, that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.” (Reported by Abu Dawud, Kitaab al-Khiraj wa’l-imaarah wa’l-fay’). (b) Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah  (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’” (Saheeh Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah). (3) The scholars’ consensus (ijmaa’) affirming the importance of the Sunnah. Al-Shaafi’i, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “I do not know of anyone among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een who narrated a report from the Messenger of Allaah  (peace be upon him) without accepting it, adhering to it and affirming that this was sunnah. Those who came after the Taabi’een, and those whom we met did likewise: they all accepted the reports and took them to be sunnah, praising those who followed them and criticizing those who went against them. Whoever deviated from this path would be regarded by us as having deviated from the way of the Companions of the Prophet  (peace be upon him) and the scholars who followed them, and would be considered as one of the ignorant. (4) Common sense indicates the importance of the Sunnah. The fact that the Prophet  (peace be upon him) is the Messenger of Allaah indicates that we must believe everything he said and obey every command he gave. It goes without saying that he has told us things and given instructions in addition to what is in the Qur’aan. It is futile to make a distinction between the Sunnah and the Qur’aan when it comes to adhering to it and responding to it. It is obligatory to believe in what he has told us, and to obey his instructions. The ruling concerning those who deny the importance of the Sunnah is that they are kaafirs, because they deny and reject a well-known and undeniable part of the religion. As regards your second question, about whether a Muslim is required to follow a particular madhhab, the answer is that he does not have to. For the average “rank and file” Muslim, his madhhab is that of his mufti or the scholar whom he consults for religious verdicts; he must ask those pious scholars whom he trusts for opinions when necessary. If a person has enough knowledge to distinguish which evidence and opinion is stronger, then he must follow the scholarly opinion which has the strongest support from the Qur’an and Sunnah. It is acceptable for a Muslim to follow one of the four well-known madhhabs, on the condition that he understands that the truth in any given issue may lie with another madhhab, in which case he must ignore his own madhhab’s opinion and follow the truth. The Muslim’s aim is to follow the truth that is in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah. The madhhabs of fiqh are only a means of reaching ahkaam (rules) based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, they are not Qur’aan and Sunnah. We ask Allaah to show us the truth and help us to follow it, and to show us falsehood and help us to avoid it. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad. ------------------- As for how to handle this, hmmmm.  That's a good question.  But i have to take off now. ;)

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
NewJehad
12/17/01 at 11:32:49
The submiters do not believe "we should leave the hadith and follow the Quran", this is just their slogan. They believe we should only except the parts of Islam that the Kaffar are OK with. cause there are many things that are clearly inside the Quran that they reject, such as chopping the hand of the theif. loads of devients want to move away from parts of Islam like that the kaffar don't like. How can this be done with out leaving Islam? What they try Is reinterpretation. The problem is you can reinterpret a saying and a verse but not a action. So when they reinterpret a verse making hallal harram, their interpretation would mean muhummed pbh had the wrong interpretation. so the submitors have decided to reject all the hadith so they can reinterpret the quran with out people saying, "your intrepretation is different from our prophets". they deal with the verse of the Quran they don't like by giving them meanings that contredict their true meaning.

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
akbalkhan
12/17/01 at 14:40:50
As Salamu Alayka, Maybe you could have taken a bunch from him, under the pretense of 'helping to distribute them,' and just threw them away. Probably would have been best to alert an elder or the imam, and let them dispose of the character.  I know that there are strict prohibitions at some masjids in the Chicago area where I am from, that disallow the handing out of any pamphlets or materials, and I think that it is a wise move.  Perhaps initiate a policy like that where you attend. It is best to let some one with authority handle the situation, as it could get really chaotic if everyone had an intention to stop every perceived bad thing on their own. Remember that some evil we cannot stop from happening, as Allah SWT wishes for some people to increase in their wrong doing so as to get a greater punishment later.  But alhamdulillah for people like you out there. Good lookin' out, Regards, QAK

Re: how should i HAVE handled it?
kareema
12/18/01 at 02:50:40
Maybe stoodby and counter his arguments, if you had time? I don't think you necessarily should have taken them away, what if you got into a fistfight with him? Better to let the people who have legal right to choose who can be on their property(Mosque leaders,owners) know about it and take appropiate action, they could get away with expelling him if necessary, you may not be legally free to do that.
NS
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