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Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
princess
12/19/01 at 13:51:48
as'salaamualikum ;-D what r yalls thoughts? share plz..(i got this from cair's e-mail..) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CAscribe Newswire, 12/19/2001 http://www.ascribe.org/onthewire/livewire.html WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 (AScribe Newswire) -- The first ever systematic poll of American Muslims finds a 58 percent approval rating of President Bush for his handling of the terrorist attacks on September 11 and two-thirds agree with the Bush Administration's assertion that the war is being fought against terrorism, not Islam. Two-thirds also responded that a change in America's policy in the Middle East is the best way to wage the war against terrorism. "The Poll clearly shows the determination of the Muslim community," said Project MAPS Co-Director Zahid Bukhari of Georgetown University's Center for Muslim Christian Understanding. "Although it took the heat after September 11, more than 50 percent experienced incidents of backlash, the community is yet very much eager to fully participate in the American Public life. The American Muslims have great potential to become a moral voice in the society." The poll results were released today by Project MAPS: Muslims in the American Public Square at the National Press Club. Zogby International interviewed 1,781 persons nationwide who identify themselves as Muslim from November 8 through November 19, 2001. John Esposito, University Professor and Director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, said "This opinion poll, part of a major project sponsored by the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding and the PEW Charitable Trust, provides important new insights into the demographics, voting habits, and participation of Muslims in American public life." The poll results also suggest that American Muslims favor big government solutions to issues like health care and poverty but are conservative on other social issues like the death penalty, gay marriage, abortion, and pornography. American Muslims report significant involvement in the broader community through donations to non-Muslim social service programs and participation in the American political process. For a copy of the executive summary of the poll results, please contact Doug Shaw at 202-687-4327.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Hania
12/19/01 at 14:06:47
slm Terrorism? Then why haven't they carpet bombed NI and got rid of the IRA? Or got rid of ETA in Spain. Are they not terrorists too? I think a lot of Muslim in the West are a bit scared to be seen disagreeing with their fellow non muslim neighbours and try their best to fit it, even if it means agreeing with the war. Even when I leave the house my dad always tells me agree with what people say to avoid confrontaion and getting attacked because there is a lot of hostility towards muslims in my area. But maybe I'm wrong. H.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
akbalkhan
12/19/01 at 14:24:16
As Salamu Alayka, Thanxs for posting the article. I heard the same statistics this AM as well, and I kept thinking about what that means, if anything. I have pretty much put that Esposito character out of my personal "acceptable opinion and perspective" category, and I do not much listen to or advocate any of his views.  As far as Mr. Bukhari is concerned, cool name is all I can say for Mr. Georgetown. I find the statistics far too ambiguous.  The population of Muslims in America fluctuates in reports from 4-6 million.  For all you non-math people out there, that's to be off count potentially by 33-50%.  Basically, nobody knows how many Muslims are in America.  Then to break down how a Muslim is defined or how they define themselves is a whole 'nother situation.  So, given the criteria of the questioned pool as those who identified themselves as Muslim, does not lend much credibility to me of the certianty of their status as Muslims.  A better next or first question should have been are you practicing, meaning do you make salaat, fast, and attend Friday prayers at least. Then ask do you agree with the U.S. campaign.  I believe the poll would have turned out differently. It is one notch for the apologists, one strike for the outraged Ummah wanting a single condemning voice of the U.S. racist policies, and one stroke for the ego of those Ameircan's who want to think that we are that canabilistic to support the murder of our own. I don't know that the report was all that revealing, except perhaps for the number of impostors and hypocrites that partake in polls. Regards, QAK

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
amal
12/19/01 at 15:52:04
slm, [quote]I find the statistics far too ambiguous.  The population of Muslims in America fluctuates in reports from 4-6 million.[/quote] Ditto!! How representitive is this "pool" supposedly?? Every muslim that i talked to is utterly disgusted at this war and as far as i know muslim organizations have condemned the war. That's not to say that we shouldn't punish the culprits of 9-11.But first we have to get evidence of culpability *beyond reasonable doubt*, find the perpetrators, and then try them in court.And i don't mean kangaroo courts the like of the so called military tribunals! This report is very disturbing.What is it trying to say?? That muslims are OK with the killing of innocent civilians? Murder is murder! Period! No matter whether the victims are afghanis,iraqis,palestinians,or americans.How can anybody who has a shred of humanity in their soul think otherwise?? Or is this yet another step in the propaganda war??...

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
mujaahid
12/19/01 at 16:21:03
Assalaamu-alaikum. The poll is a farce!!! I have yet to speak to a single, yes not even ONE muslim, who is in favour of the war, and they ALL say its a war on islaam!!!! I dont need no faked phony rigged poll to tell me what muslims is the US think!!! Most of the worlds muslims do not live in the US, and they are overwhelmingly against the USA, sadly the leaders of these muslims are US puppets.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Anik
12/19/01 at 16:56:28
asalaamu alaikum, perhaps my comments wil be of a different bent: personally, I think its irrelevant to start pointing fingers at all other terrorist organizations, practically, not ideally, because the IRA and NI or any of the such have not attacked America.  Simple.  We keep asking America to "justify" its response and so on, as if we expect it to be some huge moral body that watches everything it does... we have entered an age where you have to be politically right to make an action as a country rather than watch out for your security, well, it's time we stop thinking that countries will just "follow the moral rules" to hinder their own protection in the name of accountability.  I'm not saying this is right, but i think its the reality. So, when a terrorist group flies planes into a building, you wanna deal with that group first.  Whoever doesn't hurt you, who cares? They don't have the social or moral responsibility intheir eyes to go after people who don't hurt them, and even if they do it it is small media fodder to appease the public. So in a choice between Al-Quaeda and the IRA from an American govt standpoint, who to go after?  Both in the name of fairness? No, spend your resource on those who hurt you. Sister Hania, its true that many muslims conform to surounding non-muslim opinion simply because they live there and care for their safety.  It IS pointless getting hurt i think, but we shouldn't bend right to them.  When the US says Terrorism, they mean, "whoever terrorizes us or our allies", not worldwide terrorism. Ones man's terrorism is another man's freedom struggle. But I used to feel that muslims who are "apologetic" are not muslims at all, but I thought about it, and so what if they agree with the termination of terrorism?  If they back a kaffir trying to rid the world of innocent killing.  And the response is, what about the innocent children in so-and-so, but from someone's egocentric viewpoint, why bother?  Muslims should feel insecure in America as well from the WTC- or was 500 odd muslims dying in the WTC a "collateral damage"? Muslims being taken out as collateral damage anywhere is enough cause for many muslims to justify actions against those who do this. This very well could have been practicing, God-fearing muslims who feel that BOTH sides of the issue are wrong.  Whether or not the polls turned out differently with a more representative test, the fact remains that these muslims have been asked and have given an opinion. Perhaps they were being apologetic for the American questioner, to help their own existence in America, or maybe they really felt like that. We say terrorism is not Islam, yet we want to start everywhere else to solve the problem of terrorism except for the main event of the world, the WTC. Instead of Al-Qaueda, we say IRA first to spread the "terrorism" blame out and the divert negative attention... find the people who did the WTC, hold them to trial, and done. Islam here remains untouched- it is pure and must be free of terrorism. Everyone acts in self-interest.  EVERYONE. So let's understand that and start to do what we can as muslims. And just for the record, I don't support the way this war is going on, of course not, but I can empathize with how some people justify it whether I agree or not (and I don't).  Br. Mujahid many muslims think this is a war on terrorism, not Islam.  Infact, if this really was a war on Islam, what are we all doing sitting in our computer chairs typing away?  The US like many other countries acts in self-interest.  They couldn't care less whether or not Islam exists, as long as it doesn't hurt them or their self-interests.  Since it does in some ways, they want to wipe out Islamic aspects that are harmful to them.   So I don't think this is a specific war on Islam to take out all muslims, But rather to quell Islamic action and to prevent response. Islam I think happened to be in the way of their interests and got stepped on, which awakened a sleeping giant in people's imaan, who said Islam was purposely stepped on (whether it was or it wasn;t, it was still stepped on), acted in the name of Islam (rightfully so), and then America is trying to push down this side of Islam: resistance. That's my interpretation of the situation. asalamau alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
mujaahid
12/19/01 at 17:03:39
Anik Your views are almost beyond belief! Actually they are kinda bent in a way. IF this was about america and protecting themselves, why did they get so many innocent nations involved? After all most of the nations have NEVER been attacekd by al-qaida!!! So why did uncle USA go crying to everyone? And then you rather strangely claim the usa also acted to protect its allies? So pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Syria, China, Russia etc are your allies now? Yeah right, and saddam hussien must then be a friend of the american public, and i'm supermans sister!!! This was an attack on al-qaeda not because they are terrorists, but because they have the potential, will and ability to do SERIOUS Military damage to the USA and to its own interets abroad. These freedom fighters, the heroes of islaam, are the few who stood upto the USA, and i love them dearly, as i'm sure many, if not most muslims do. Its only the apologetic, and those that wanna be stroked by the USA governemnt that go agianst our mujaahideen. Long live the mujaahideen. Inshallah they will pull of a great victory for our Ummah. Yeah terrorists have noting to do with islaam, but only a fool would believe that bin laadin was behind the attacks. Apologists muslims are a shame upon this ummah. We have enough puppets ruling our nations, but they will one day be bought down, inshallah!!! THAT is why the USa worreis about al-qaeda, they worry this group has the ability to overthrow thier puppets! The muslim world has over and over shown huge support for al-qaeda and bin laadin, and i reiterate this support!

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Hania
12/19/01 at 17:20:04
[quote]asalaamu alaikum, So, when a terrorist group flies planes into a building, you wanna deal with that group first.  Whoever doesn't hurt you, who cares? They don't have the social or moral responsibility intheir eyes to go after people who don't hurt them, and even if they do it it is small media fodder to appease the public. So in a choice between Al-Quaeda and the IRA from an American govt standpoint, who to go after?  Both in the name of fairness? No, spend your resource on those who hurt you. [/quote] Sure I get you. But IRA plant bombs in part of UK not USA. So why doesn't UK deal with its own problem with the IRA terrorists instead of dealing with Al-Quaeda which flew planes into US buldings rather than British. Why isn't UK spending its resources on those that hurt it? To be honest I feel sorry for groups that have to resort to planting bombs and acts of terrorism. Is it evil that drives them or is it frustration at the fact they are not being treated fairly?

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Anik
12/19/01 at 17:26:36
asalaamu alaikum, [quote]Anik  [/quote] Please call me Abdullah brother [quote] Your views are almost beyond belief! Actually they are kinda bent in a way.[/quote] Which views? remember they may not match yours, and some things I say and point out may not be my own views, I often attach disclaimers. [quote] IF this was about america and protecting themselves, why did they get so many innocent nations involved? After all most of the nations have NEVER been attacekd by al-qaida!!! So why did uncle USA go crying to everyone?[/quote] Because a) they wanted an international "bandwagon" to justify their actions and the more people with you, the better it seems to the world b) Al-Qaida, to them, has many connections into other countries which they would like to eliminate as well c) They want the world to help and to be aware of their problem. Turning this into a world concern makes it easier to be dealt with, rather than a selfish national security issue. [quote]And then you rather strangely claim the usa also acted to protect its allies? [/quote] To them, protecting your allies is prtecting yourself and re-inforcing ties of alliance [quote] So pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Syria, China, Russia etc are your allies now? [/quote] MY ALLIES? whoa whoa whoa... who said this was about me or even my opinion... I am giving a US perspective response... [quote] Yeah right, and saddam hussien must then be a friend of the american public, and i'm supermans sister!!! [/quote] In a way, I think he actually helps the Americans indirectly, but that's a whole nother issue. [quote]This was an attack on al-qaeda not because they are terrorists, but because they have the potential, will and ability to do SERIOUS Military damage to the USA and to its own interets abroad.[/quote] So why weren't they attacked before the WTC if this wasn't about terrorism?  Russia has the ability to do serious damage as well, they don't actually do it though, so they don;t get attacked.  Do you think Al Qaida still have serious potential? And where is it now, with the security heightened?  And btw, you agree with the WTC? [quote] These freedom fighters, the heroes of islaam, are the few who stood upto the USA, and i love them dearly, as i'm sure many, if not most muslims do.[/quote] I'm sure many muslims do, along with agreeing with the what, "collateral death" of hundreds of innocent muslims and even the death of inncent kaffirs? "Heroes if Islam" running planes into buildings?  That's the kind of emotional, unobjective talk that make sus muslims looks savage and brainless in my opinion. ' As well, so you concede to the fact that Al Qaida is responsible for this then, if they "stood up" to the US?   Most muslims love them?  Lets look all over this board, most people condemn terrorism, as well, the homepage clearly has links to muslims condemning the attacks.  Seems to me like your in territory that doesn't agree with you. [quote]Its only the apologetic, and those that wanna be stroked by the USA governemnt that go agianst our mujaahideen.[/quote] Oh yeah, I wanna be stroked by Bush and feel good with the kaffirs... That's the kind of absolute side-taking that is unjustified- either your with them or with us- I wanna be with the right thing to do either side with the colonial carpet bombers or the plane hijackers. Lesser of two evils? I don't want either thank you, my view of mujahideen are obviously different from yours. [quote] Long live the mujaahideen. Inshallah they will pull of a great victory for our Ummah. [/quote] Yes, long live the Mujahideen who follow Islamic instruction and intention to complete the tasks.   Our MOTIVE is totally correct, but the METHOD must be reviewed I feel. [quote]Yeah terrorists have noting to do with islaam, but only a fool would believe that bin laadin was behind the attacks.[/quote] I think its some what next to impossible to be objective by the way you are so emotional about this, unable to discuss intelligently and rather haughtily and belligerantly calling people like me "fools".  I will not fall into accusing you of anything of the such. And if Al Qaida didn't do it, or OBL, then why do you say they stand up to the US? I think we like to switch our opinions. Its like a kid who steals and then gets angry when accused- prove it now, he says.  Why did you pick me? So would we be proud either way if they did it or not? [quote]Apologists muslims are a shame upon this ummah. We have enough puppets ruling our nations, but they will one day be bought down, inshallah!!! THAT is why the USa worreis about al-qaeda, they worry this group has the ability to overthrow thier puppets! [/quote] Yes, muslims who condemn innocent muslims and Islam, yes, but muslims who have their own opinion and yet still side with Islam? [quote]The muslim world has over and over shown huge support for al-qaeda and bin laadin, and i reiterate this support! [/quote] I will make dua for you, and please you for me Insha'Allah, that whoever is right, let the other join him in his opinion, or may Allah SWT guide us both, rather, guide us ALL.  Brother, I love you, please don;'t call me a fool in the midst of your emotion. asalamau alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Umar
12/19/01 at 18:34:50
asalaamu alaikum, I’m totally against what happen in sep. 11, I was shocked, whatever the reason is… I think that was wrong. As far as I know our main role as a Muslim is to convey the message, now how can we do that if we start hostilities? How could a Muslim do such a thing? Time and again I ask myself that question. But could it be because of this? http://ummah.net/unity/ I was once on a forum (not muslim), where they talk about the israeli soldiers killing palistinian families, raping muslim women. CNN telling only the other side of the story. I think Americans are open minded, fair, freedom fighting people. But why they leave it like this? Because a lot of jewish people are in their government, they are running everything... they nearly had their 1st jew american president (Al G.). As long as they are in control of the press, government, etc, most american people will never know the truth. Without the black propaganda being wage by the jews, I think a LOT of americans will have a chance of knowing what Islam really is. Having them on the fold of Islam will be a great reward for us from Allah. We us muslims must settle our differences and unite on a common goal, and think of anyways to solve this problem. Anyone have any idea? ----------------- Im a muslim revert, and is still trying to adjust my way of life according to Islam. Please correct me if in any case I post something that is not right.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Hania
12/19/01 at 18:49:52
slm [quote] We us muslims must settle our differences and unite on a common goal, and think of anyways to solve this problem. Anyone have any idea? [/quote] I really like what you have written in these two sentences mashallah. And it would be nice to start a discussion which actually looked at ideas of changing the ummah for the better for our generation. I don't mean to sound like a cheesy coke advert but we are the future and the state of the ummah lies in our hands. Maybe we should stop blaming this person and that and start a discussion on what should be done, I'm confused and if I had an answer then life would be more clear.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
BroHanif
12/19/01 at 19:03:46
AWW, Broher Abdullah, keep your posts coming...interesting points. [quote]We us muslims must settle our differences and unite on a common goal, and think of anyways to solve this problem. Anyone have any idea? [/quote] Two options, build love and brotherhood by looking at the companions of the prophet and the example of the prophet himself, peace be upon him. This is the real successful way to build the ummah together Or a more brutal option, start killing the muslims, yes thats right when the muslims start to kill each other for petty things then we will understand. Right now the muslims are having their backsides tanned, but the funny thing is we are not taking a lesson from it. remember this ummah will have 73 sects. All the bullshit about America and Israel, I'm sick of it, muslims turn your attention to Allah only and the problem will be solved. America is not our khudda nor is Israel, every barking dog will bark loud some day, but not everyday, and one day he too will fall silent and some other dog(oppressor) with a louder bark will take over. As muslims we are concerned about the crap of Israel/America when we should be worried pleasing Allah and getting close to him, we fear death and we do not look forward to seeing the creator, we commit sins upon sins, is there any wonder why the help of Allah is not coming ? salaams H

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
humble_muslim
12/19/01 at 19:04:02
AA I am convinced that the problem lies with the muslim ummah, and not with the non muslims.  If all the muslim ummah started praying 5 times a day, that by itself would make a HUGE difference bi idh nillah. But we must start with ourselves, because WE are the muslim ummah.  How many of us do the following : * Pray 5 times a day WITHOUT FAIL ? * Pray in the mosque regularly (I don't mean just Jummah) ? * Avoid watching TV, movies, etc ? * Avoid listening to music ? * Act correctly and modestly in front of the opposite sex ? * For brothers, grow a beard ? * For sisters, wear the hijab ? * Treat our brothers and sisters the best way we can, NO MATTER what they have done to us ? * Never backbite ? * REALLY obey our parents ? * Make intention for Hajj or Umrah ? * Avoid riba ? This message is first to myself, and then to others.  The above is a list IMHO of the BASIC NECCESITIES of being a muslim.  How many of us, even on this board, can really say they do all these things ? And then we complain about what a bad state we are in ...
NS

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Anik
12/19/01 at 19:42:05
asalaamu alaikum, [quote]  But IRA plant bombs in part of UK not USA. So why doesn't UK deal with its own problem with the IRA terrorists instead of dealing with Al-Quaeda which flew planes into US buldings rather than British. Why isn't UK spending its resources on those that hurt it? [/quote] One word: Bandwagon Remember the point I made about only dealing with things that hurt  you? That remark was reserved exclusively for two countries: America and Israel.  Everyone else can just suck up to them.  The UK's IRA problem will not be dealt with in the same way because a) the threat isn't as large b) the IRA is actually not so much of an issue anymore c) muslim fundamentalist groups pose more of a threat to the government than the IRA does d) the IRA is white, kaming them a harder target to go after, while directing apathy at an immigrant group is much easier. e) supporting America means trade benefits and public relations benefits of the UK and for Tony Blair.   Thus, the UK has every reason in it's secular mind to join the US.  every kaffir-minded outcome is pointing that way for them. Again, do not expect countries to be accountable and morally reponsible for their actions, if they don't want to focus on the IRA, its obviously best for them as they see it. [quote]To be honest I feel sorry for groups that have to resort to planting bombs and acts of terrorism. Is it evil that drives them or is it frustration at the fact they are not being treated fairly?[/quote] You know what I think drives groups into using violence? Yes, frustration.  Third World Frustration often.  Some people don't know how to deal with problems in an intelligent way.  Others are given no option, it's a mouse against a giant and they'll never win head-on.  Others feel self-righteous and put the worth of their cause over the worth of people's lives.   Its often that when we think exclusively that this happens- that I am right and you are not, or, only I can be right.  Not that that kind of thinking isn't necessary, for example, with Islam. I always have to understand here that people who get angry and wild and emotional and start saying " death to all Jews" and "death to all muslims", whichever side, have been affected personally by this issue and do not think clearly.  Often the third world increases this mentality that many people here view as barbaric: this under-informed, exclusivist principle that combines the stresses of living in a low standard of living with less rights that culminates in an explosion of physical violence and hate.  I am not justifying or un-justifying it, just stating that the condition exists.  Then again, some first world people go nuts as well about it (ie. in the US). asalamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Saleema
12/19/01 at 23:18:48
[slm] Abdullah, I must commend you on your objectivity. :) Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic here but what you have stated is what *is*, what they have been argueing about is what *ought* to be. And Islam strives for the *ought* to be, not what *is*.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
bhaloo
12/20/01 at 00:12:43
slm Getting back to the original question,  my opinion is that it is  a war against Islam and not terrorism.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Caraj
12/20/01 at 02:04:39
I do not believe the war is against Islam. If that were the case, I would think this country wouldn't of allowed Muslims to even come in the country and practice their beliefs to begin with if that were the case. And if it were so they would of done something different in Kuiwat and Saudi.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
ahmer
12/20/01 at 02:49:05
[slm] There is so much to write..but peace guys!!:) Please read this! This is really interesting!:) wlm ahmer [color=blue] 13:36 2001-12-08 PAT BUCHANAN: IS A WAR OF CIVILIZATIONS AHEAD? With the ouster of the Taliban and eradication of the al-Qaida in Afghanistan, Islamic extremism has sustained a crushing defeat. But what continues to unsettle Americans is that film of Arab and Islamic people, wildly cheering the barbaric atrocities of Sept. 11. Is a war of civilizations coming? Clearly, not a few in the Islamic world and the West so believe, and ardently desire. And, with the War Party cawing for an attack on Iraq, with Sharon unleashed after the atrocities in Jerusalem and Haifa, with the U.S. press calling for a reappraisal of our ties to Saudi Arabia and Egypt, a clash of civilizations has moved from the possible to the probable. President Bush, however, seems instinctively aware such a war would be a disaster. For no matter how many deaths or defeats we inflict, we cannot kill Islam as we did Nazism, fascism, Japanese militarism and Soviet Bolshevism. Islam has survived for nearly 1,600 years; it is the predominant faith in 57 countries; it is indestructible. Astonishingly, 63 years ago, when Islam lay dormant under the heel of Western empires, a famous Catholic writer predicted Islam would rise again. Wrote Hillaire Belloc: "It has always seemed to me ... probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent." Islam was a Christian heresy, Belloc believed, whose strength lay in its "insistence on personal immortality, the Unity and Infinite Majesty of God, on his Justice and Mercy [and] ... its insistence on the equality of human souls in the sight of their Creator." While The Prophet "gave to our Lord the highest reverence, and the Mother of God was ever for him the first of womankind," he rejected the Incarnation. Mohammed "taught that our Lord was the greatest of all Prophets, but still only a prophet, a man like other men." Belloc believed Islam to be a "Reformation" movement with parallels to "the Protestant Reformers – on Images, the Mass and Celibacy." When Christians were illiterate, Islam spread "for 700 years, until it had mastered the Balkans and the Hungarian plain, and all but occupied Western Europe itself," almost destroying Christendom "through its early material and intellectual superiority." Three heroes saved the West. In 732, at Poitiers, Charles Martel, the Hammer of the Franks, stopped Islam's invasion in France. In 1571, the Christian fleets of Don Juan of Austria, an illegitimate son of Charles V, destroyed the Mohammedan armada in an epic battle immortalized in Chesterton's "The Ballad of Lepanto." And Polish Catholic King John Sobieski stopped the Turks at Vienna "on a date that ought to be famous in history, September 11, 1683." One of history's great questions is why the Islamic world collapsed. A century before Yorktown, Constantinople was superior in arms. But in the 18th and 19th centuries, the Islamic world was not only superseded by the West, it fell backward – in technology, industry, communications, arms and governance. The Ottoman Empire became "the sick man of Europe." Colonization by the West followed. In the 20th century, only at Gallipoli – the 1915 battle that cost its architect, First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill, his post – can one recall an Islamic victory over a Western army. But if a clash of civilizations is coming, how stands the balance of power? In wealth and might, the West is supreme – though wealth did not prevent the collapse of the Western empires and did not prevent the collapse of the Soviet empire. Rome was mighty, and early Christianity pathetically weak. Yet, Christianity triumphed. If belief is decisive, Islam is militant, Christianity milquetoast. In population, Islam is exploding, the West dying. Islamic warriors are willing to suffer defeat and death, the West recoils at casualties. They are full of grievance; we, full of guilt. Where Islam prevails, it asserts a right to impose its dogma, while the West preaches equality. Islam is assertive, the West apologetic – about its crusaders, conquerors and empires. Don't count Islam out. It is the fastest growing faith in Europe and has surpassed Catholicism worldwide. And as Christianity expires in the West and the churches empty out, the mosques are going up. To defeat a faith, you need a faith. What is ours? Individualism, democracy, pluralism, la dolce vita? Can they overcome a fighting faith, 16 centuries old, and rising again? Patrick J. Buchanan was twice a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination and the Reform Party’s candidate in 2000. Now a commentator and columnist, he served three presidents in the White House, was a founding panelist of three national televison shows, and is the author of six books. His current position is chairman of The American Cause. His newest book, Death of the West, will be published in January. [url]http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/12/08/23232.html[/url] [/color]

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
akbalkhan
12/20/01 at 10:29:40
As Salamu Alayka, The Quran says that those who engage in riba, take notice of war from Allah SWT and the Messenger, salallahu alayhi wa salam. So for those who worked in the WTC, with its financial institutions, bank and loan centers, and military intelligence offices, they were forewarned 1400 years ago.  As for the Pentagon, well it was a legitimate target being a military building.  As far as terrorism is concerned, it is a practice established by just about all nations modern and ancient.  The ancient Egyptians would kill the men and leave the women to live in fear of having to father an Egyptian's child.  For modern day terrorism, we would have to look at hegemony and recent sterilization campaigns in poor, indigenous communities across the Americas and elsewhere.  When depleted uranium shell bombs are dropped on a country's inhabitants specifically for their ability to cause genetic defects in babies born so as to slowly wipe out the population, that my brothers and sisters, is terrorism.  And when masjids and civilian homes and utilities are bombed, that is terrorism.  When Muslims return the favor, that is retaliation, a transgression of clear sunnah, but a forgiveable one, since reciprocal actions are acceptable in al-Islam, when it comes to war, and war strategems. I have not heard of any claims by kafr or ummah media that the suicide bombers of the WTC belonged to any specific terrorist organization or Islamic organization for that matter.  They're reported to have met with different people, but no direct ties reported, or evidence supporting their affiliation.  I have also read that the only hard evidence linking the so called head of the WTC bombing cell, Muhammed Atta, was a 'suicide' note found among his belongings.  I have heard a refutation about this letter re: its standing as a will and testament that would have been customary for a Muslim to draw up before embarking on a ship or plane. There is also clear evidence given by both kafr and Ummah media that state that an Israel based media company had Instant messages warning of the WTC attacks hours before their occurrence, and the messages came from an internet account within the company.  There is plenty of reasonable doubt that could be established on the basis of the involvement of Mossad or domestic interests. It is the exact reaction of Muslims ignoring the plight of Muslims and seeking to strengthen their belief by turning inward and towards Allah SWT by means of restraint and vigilance that the kafr are relying upon for a swift and decisive quashing of the Ummah.  While patience and perserverance have their place in the beautiful attributes of the Mu'meen, Jihad, I mean Qatil or fighting, have their place at the peak of al-Islam, while fasting, salaat, zakaat, shahada, and Hajj occupy the pillars. For those who consider the firefighters and kafr killed in the WTC shaheeds, then you are not my brother or sister, and for those who consider the Northern Alliance and its supporters mujaheeds, you are not my brothers and sisters, and for those who take the U.S. military actions and policies over the establishment of Shariat and adherence to those laws, you are not my brother or sister.  You are the lowest of the created beings.....masha'Allah. Famine, drought and death from infighting has been predicted for us by the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa salam, and we have to accept that as our lot and a source of reward for suffering in dignity and all the while praising Allah SWT.  However, death at the hands of the kafr, and domination by its economic policies and institutions we are commanded to fight and repel.  Not everyone is commanded to fight the kafr, but a group of us are encouraged to continue learning and spreading the deen of Allah SWT.  So for people who want others to be quiet if we are not going to fight, and consider those who support the true mujahideen, just bandwagoners, do you recommend this in opposition to what we are instructed by the one who is better than all of us, salallahu alayhi wasalam? Regards, QAK

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
humble_muslim
12/20/01 at 10:48:48
AA Excuse me ?  So should we go around blowing up banks ? Was EVERYONE involved in the WTC working with Riba ? What about the people on the planes ?  What bout the muslims who paryed Qiyam Al Lail with me in the masjid but have bought houses with mortgages because they have big families ?   What about Al Qaradawi, should we go and kill him too ? Why is it that muslims are trying so hard to paint the true picture of Islam, while people like you are just trying to increase the sterotyping ?
NS

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Caraj
12/20/01 at 11:07:53
***************************************************************** For those who consider the firefighters and kafr killed in the WTC shaheeds, then you are not my brother or sister, ****************************************************************** As the daughter of a fire fighter who for over 25 years risked his life to save others I find this totally insulting, hateful and full of venim. For 25 years my father went to fires and rescues. When he jumped out of the truck he didn't ask the person his race, culture, religon, beliefs, financial info nor what his ansestors did. He just went to work and helped people as much as he could. ************************************************************ .  You are the lowest of the created beings.....masha'Allah. ************************************************************ Why are you so filled with hatred? I am so thankful to God/Allah you are not my Judge.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
bhaloo
12/20/01 at 11:45:01
slm I have to go now, and insha'Allah I'll address some of these things later, but I think some misunderstandings are taking place. I think the reason brother Abdullah mentioned that the NYC firefighter are not shaheed is because some speaker had mentioned that they were, and many Muslims spoke up at their outrage at such a statement.  The NYC firefighters (the non-Muslim ones) are not shaheed because one has to be a Muslim in order to even be considered a shaheed in the 1st place. As for the other stuff (Saudi and Kuwait even, ill mention an article by Eric Margolis) I will discuss this later, insha'Allah.
NS

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
akbalkhan
12/20/01 at 12:15:53
Caraj, If your father is a firefighter and saved many people or helped preserve the property of many people, and is not a Muslim, well then I hate to break it to you but his good deeds may be in vain.  If however he does become Muslim later in life, insha'Allah, no ones good deeds are in vain before they became Muslim.  Only if he accepts al-Islam sometime is this life will his good deeds matter.  That is not my opinion or based on hate, that is what I found to be the decision of who I respect as scholars. As for the hatred thing, I believe that in order to hate, a person must have had some kind of love to begin with.  I do not have any feelings towards the kafr except a hope that Allah SWT guides them for their own benefit. The Quran is clear about who should take notice of war, and it is in the mufassal so it is unabrogated to the best of my research and knowledge.  The 'war notice' that should be taken, as also explained in the QUran is that the punishment could come from Allah SWT or from those who fight in Allah's SWT name.  Again, I did not lie down a blanket statement of Jahannum or Jannah for anyone.  But I do believe in what the Quran tells us, and what respected, independent scholars interpret from the meanings. If you take a mortgage on a home and it demands in the contract that you pay back an amount greater than the actual cost for a deferrment in payment, this is riba, and there are dire consequences for those actions.  Muhammed, salallahu alayhi wa salam, has told us the least serious aspect of the crime of riba is similar to the moral weightiness  of 70 despised acts, the least of which is marrying your own mother, audhu billah.  As far as anyone's forgiveness or being forgiven, I cannot say, I can only forbid and warn.  I take great pains not to engage in riba personally in the obtaining of my food, and shelter.  Granted that even the vapors have reached me, but I cannot believe that my efforts are in vain, nor is my attaining a home and wealth without riba loans, and riba financial investments, to merit the same reward as someone who does go through those means.  That would defy all belief for me in ALlah SWT's justice and reward system. Since this is not a thread on riba however, let me get back to the subject. Those Muslims who support the military campaign are drawing near to the 'kings grazing grounds.'  The bombing campaigns are killing Muslims-period.  There can be no Islamic viewpoint substantiating that offense. Many of the examples raised in support of a peaceful, pacifist-like, Muhammed, salallahu alayhi wa salam, are prior to his having received the revelation to fight the kafr until they accept al-Islam.  Before that revelation, Muhammed, SAW, was commanded to be patient and wait for the command to fight, and this occured when the Ummah had developed and acquired enough to be successful, and to try those who would have to be weeded out.  The timing of the revelation is critical in making these assertions. On a personal note, although you may not care if you feel hurt or attacked by any of my comments (which is not my intention either), I embraced al-Islam for the wrong reasons, however I came of it on my own.  It is only after much time learning and making hard choices and many mistakes, that I have come to a point where I can look back and say I must have embraced al-Islam through a very tiny window of an opportunity, and certainly through the will of Rabil 'Aalimin, alhamdulillah.  As a revert, and as is common with many, I have a passion and committment to following only the purest and most accurate sunnah of the Prophet, SAW, and interpretation of the QUran.  To say the least that requires a lot of picking a choosing, where scholars and interpretations are concerned.  Some choose those interpretations that they are most comfortable with at the time of their reversion.  Some choose the sunnah that are impossible to reach. Some pick the interpretation and sunnah that is attainable, yet very difficult.  How you define these are individual, but clearly not equal.  What people consider extremism or fanatacism about al-Islam, often times translates rationally into what is pure and unadulterated, other times it is as a result of being non-Muslim, sometimes it is a result of even a Muslims choice of interpretation and knowledge of sunnah being based on weak or fabricated narrations. Caraj, you referred to my statements as being like venom,  I hope you were not likening me to a snake! Masha'Allah. Its just that some interpretations and weakly narrated or fabricated sunnah (or traditions of the Prophet, SAW) that one takes on as a way of life and values can lead one to a sect or innovation in al-Islam.  They can also lead one to wind up on a side of the fence that keeps the kafir in and the Mu'minin safe from kafr and themselves. I am not mad at you, nor do I hate people who are kafr. Actually I learned on this board a while ago, that if you get mad or upset, sometimes its because something someone said was at least a little bit true, and it meant you have some learning, or mindful rearranging to do.  I would not be happy to see you leave or give up, in fact I would feel terrible especially if it were on my account- though I would not flatter myself to think my words could have such an effect on anyone. Regards, QAK

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Anik
12/20/01 at 13:15:36
asalamu alaikum, wow a lot of posts passed and I have a few things to say, first of all, I will conclude in my own mind, that this war, is not a war of terrorism, or a war on Islam, but it is a WAR ON ISLAM AND TERRORISM The war on one is implied, the other expressed; one intentional, one accidental; one plotted and premdiated, one as a matter of happenstance. [quote]I think the reason brother Abdullah mentioned that the NYC firefighter are not shaheed [/quote]... Is there another Abdullah, cause I don't think I said that ;).. its all good :) [quote]IF your father is a firefighter and saved many people or helped preserve the property of many people, and is not a Muslim, well then I hate to break it to you but his good deeds may be in vain.[/quote] MAY be in vain, I would just liek to emphasize that... it is all up to the will of Allah SWT and He grants His mercy to who He wills... thus, we follow guidlines and are wanred in certain ways, but we cannot be judges to the matter.  I commend you for your non-blanket statment. [quote]that is what I found to be the decision of who I respect as scholars.[/quote] Do you know of scholars who do not believe this? [quote]As for the hatred thing, I believe that in order to hate, a person must have had some kind of love to begin with.  I do not have any feelings towards the kafr except a hope that Allah SWT guides them for their own benefit.[/quote] I don't think hate is the equal opposite of love... especially the type of love we have for Allah SWT and fellow humans... hate is the absence of love and nothing else, and rather than the hater having some kind of love, I'd rather see it as a selfish desire I would say. [quote]The 'war notice' that should be taken, as also explained in the QUran is that the punishment could come from Allah SWT or from those who fight in Allah's SWT name.[/quote] There must be much prudence taken when undetaking these actions. Other laws of Allah SWT must be considered.  As well, doesn't some form of leadership have to be established such as a khailafa in order to go on offensive jihads? [quote]That would defy all belief for me in ALlah SWT's justice and reward system.[/quote] Very true... I guess people do what they can... but Insha'Allah we'll all reach that level. [quote]The bombing campaigns are killing Muslims-period.  There can be no Islamic viewpoint substantiating that offense.[/quote] What about muslims killing other muslims like the Taliban and Northern Alliance? I don't know how true it is, but are we not granted the provision to fight other muslims if they do the wrong thing (I read that somewhere, please reference if possible). asalaamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
se7en
12/20/01 at 13:40:52
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, [quote]The Quran says that those who engage in riba, take notice of war from Allah SWT and the Messenger, salallahu alayhi wa salam. So for those who worked in the WTC, with its financial institutions, bank and loan centers, and military intelligence offices, they were forewarned 1400 years ago. [/quote] With all due respect, the acts on September 11th were not perpetrated by Allah and His Messenger [saw].  In fact if anything, it was an insult to them, as it was an act done in complete disregard for the shariah and the prophetic example.   This type of thinking is similar to supporting those who bomb abortion clinics, thinking that it's legitimate to do so because God told us not to have abortions.  But that does not make the bombing of the clinic any less wrong. [quote] As for the Pentagon, well it was a legitimate target being a military building. [/quote] According to whom?  Military buildings are legitimate targets *in* physical warfare.  And despite what some shuyookh from Saudi say, this was not, by any means, a legitimate act of war.  This was the killing of innocent people, and nowhere in Islam is the indiscriminate killing of men, women, and children something allowed. [quote] As far as terrorism is concerned, it is a practice established by just about all nations modern and ancient.  The ancient Egyptians would kill the men and leave the women to live in fear of having to father an Egyptian's child.  For modern day terrorism, we would have to look at hegemony and recent sterilization campaigns in poor, indigenous communities across the Americas and elsewhere.  When depleted uranium shell bombs are dropped on a country's inhabitants specifically for their ability to cause genetic defects in babies born so as to slowly wipe out the population, that my brothers and sisters, is terrorism.  And when masjids and civilian homes and utilities are bombed, that is terrorism. [/quote] They are not our teachers.  There are people suffering through unspeakable amounts of oppression and indignity the world over due solely to the United States, absolutely.  But again, this *does not* make the actions of September 11th any more legitimate.  Yes, there are legitimate grievances with the United States, but acting out in this manner is *not* justifiable by any means. [quote]When Muslims return the favor, that is retaliation, a transgression of clear sunnah, but a forgiveable one, since reciprocal actions are acceptable in al-Islam, when it comes to war, and war strategems.[/quote] Indeed, reciprocal actions are accepted in times of warfare, as long as they go by the rules of engagement established for us.  And our rules of engagement do NOT permit this killing by fire, of innocent people. [quote]Famine, drought and death from infighting has been predicted for us by the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa salam, and we have to accept that as our lot and a source of reward for suffering in dignity and all the while praising Allah SWT.  However, death at the hands of the kafr, and domination by its economic policies and institutions we are commanded to fight and repel.  Not everyone is commanded to fight the kafr, but a group of us are encouraged to continue learning and spreading the deen of Allah SWT.  So for people who want others to be quiet if we are not going to fight, and consider those who support the true mujahideen, just bandwagoners, do you recommend this in opposition to what we are instructed by the one who is better than all of us, salallahu alayhi wasalam?[/quote] Who are you talking about?  These people who bombed the hell out of a building in the middle of New York City, how good a job did they do of fighting domination by Western forces?  As American soldiers march across Afghanistan, as Iraq is the next target in the cross-hairs of America's infinite justice, do you think they accomplished their goal? They are *not* mujahideen.  The mujahideen are the Afghanis suffering through hell for doing nothing more than existing.  They are the Chechens, struggling against huge Russian forces to simply be able to say [i]la ilaha illa Allah[/i].  They are the Palestinians, resisting the ever intensifying oppression of the Israeli regime. The fools who committed this act on September 11th have *no right* to be put in the same category as those above.  They do not deserve the *honor* of being called mujahideen. [quote]If your father is a firefighter and saved many people or helped preserve the property of many people, and is not a Muslim, well then I hate to break it to you but his good deeds may be in vain.  If however he does become Muslim later in life, insha'Allah, no ones good deeds are in vain before they became Muslim.  Only if he accepts al-Islam sometime is this life will his good deeds matter.  That is not my opinion or based on hate, that is what I found to be the decision of who I respect as scholars.[/quote] You should be ashamed of yourself for making such a comment.  Really, what a *terrible* thing to say to someone.  His deeds are in vain?  His twenty five years as a firefighter aren't worth anything? I cannot even *think* of a comment that could be more harsh or offensive to a person.  If there is a way of performing *anti-daawah*, this is it.  If I were in Cara's position, and we were speaking in real life, I think I would really be tempted to strike you for saying something like that. His deeds are his own to deal with.  He will stand before God and be judged for them, as he will for his beliefs.  If he was a good man, who strove to do good things in his life, then you should pray for him, and hope for him.  You should not discount or dismiss his deeds.  That's not for you to do.  I think Cara said it best, *you* are not our judge.  You take care of yourself, and not worry about if another persons deeds are in vain or not. Cara, I don't even know what to say to you.  You've had to deal with an unbelievable amount of emotional responses, not to mention flat out ignorance and foolishness.  All I can say is, please do not take a few people's opinions or behavior towards you as Islam.  Human beings are human, prone to mistakes and error and stupidity, and because of that we do not do Islam justice.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
amal
12/20/01 at 14:04:10
slm, [quote]You are the lowest of the created beings.....masha'Allah. [/quote] It seems from your posts,w'Allah A'lam,not only this one, that you have a deeply rooted hatred and resentment for certain people, mainly women and non-muslims. I don’t know the source of all these negative sentiments in you but I will give you one advice: stop playing scholar!!! You have limited knowledge of islam and have no business interpreting the Qur’an at your will. It takes a lifetime just to master the requirements of becoming a scholar, mainly mastering classical Arabic and grammar, let alone learning thousands of ahadiths and tafsir of the Qur’an from many perspectives. That’s the way traditional Islamic learning was conducted. And that’s the way of the great scholars of islam such as the four imams. I respect your zeal and I do believe that you are sincere in your quest to implement islam. But you have to realize that your knowledge is a drop in an ocean. It’s not up to you to declare verses of the Qur’an abrogated. [quote] Many of the examples raised in support of a peaceful, pacifist-like, Muhammed, salallahu alayhi wa salam, are prior to his having received the revelation to fight the kafr until they accept al-Islam.  Before that revelation, Muhammed, SAW, was commanded to be patient and wait for the command to fight, and this occured when the Ummah had developed and acquired enough to be successful, and to try those who would have to be weeded out.  The timing of the revelation is critical in making these assertions. [/quote] Islam has never, ever, been about forced conversions. That’s why you still have other religions practiced in areas that were opened by muslims like Egypt,Palestine,turkey,etc. Now compare that to the Spanish inquisition or the crusaders who not only killed muslims and jews but also fellow christians who didn’t subscribe to the catholic church’s version of christianity. The guiding principle in islam regarding our relationship with non-muslims is inviting them to the way of Allah[swt]. No more! As evident from the following ayats: [color=red] “Let there be no compulsion in religion; for truth stands distinct from error…” Qur’an (2:256)[/color] [color=red] "And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would   have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad)  then compel men until they are believers?" Qur’an (10: 99)[/color] Brother, this is not the first time that you have made allegations that are in direct contrast to the teachings of Islam. May I remind you of a post you submitted not long ago about the initial fall of adam and eve, peace be upon them both. You said : [quote] You seemed to be pretty oblivious to the whole Hawwa tempted Adam,A.S. thing[/quote] You were corrected at that time and afterwards you deleted your post but the replies to it are still there. Check out this [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=masjid&action=display&num=3949]thread[/url] if you want to refresh your memory. People make mistakes,it’s only human, but we have to learn from them, not repeat them. Finally I will remind all, and myself first, about this hadith: [quote] Volume 8, Book 76, Number 484: Narrated Abu Huraira: That he heard Allah's Apostle saying, "A slave of Allah may utter a word without thinking whether it is right or wrong, he may slip down in the Fire as far away a distance equal to that between the east." [/quote] Wallahu A’alam

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Ayla
12/20/01 at 14:17:32
Please please correct me on this if I am wrong and take no offence - but I didn't think that killing or judgement of Christians and/or Jesw was tolerable in Islam either.  Seeing as how they are considered "people of the book"  Islams recognision of the "book" has always seemed to be one of the most beautiful and welcoming aspects to me.  Am I wrong?  Is a kafir who is a "person of the book" a fair target? As for Cara's father - I am certain that in the eyes of god his good deeds and faith are valued - no matter what his faith.  And if I remember correctly from Cara's previous posts, I believe he would be a "person of the book".

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
kiwi25
12/20/01 at 14:39:26
salam, right now i am in seven's place, and she cant stop talking about this whole discussion, subhannalah! what gives you the right to say that they are the lowest of creatures and beings, astakhfirulah!! Do not play scholar (like mentioned before ) and do not think you have the right to jugde people (thats up to Allah (SWT) ) too mad to say more, plus im taking care of seven, wasalam nouha

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
Anik
12/20/01 at 15:11:21
asalaamu alaikum, I think the bottom line comes down to the fact that Allah Subhana is the supreme judge, the only determiner, and even whether or not the WTC people can be remotely justified in their actions is completely His will and His choice. Therefore, I don't think we can say whether Cara's father, myself, Sister Se7en, brother QAK or ANYONE is deserving or worthy of Allah Subhana's frogiveness and reward.   I do hope, Sister Cara, that you see the objective Islamic viewpoint here that is shared by many "repliers" to our brother's statements, and do not take some different opinions to heart.  My advice to you is, from personal experience, just like anything in the world the opinion within Islam is many.  It is our job to seek truth and remove ourselves from bias, hatred, partiality, worldliness and personal preferences when doing so.  Take everything you read with a grain of salt because the opinions are all coming form humans, and only Allah Subhana knows which ones are right. I am sure Sister Cara is intelligent and pensive as is proven by the fact that her heart is open to Islam.  Thus, she is not a naive child whose feelings on Islam change with every harsh, accusatory comment that she finds.  Thus, even a strong condemnation of that brothers opinion can be undertaken with a cool head and forceful retorts that are reflexive defense mechanisms can be controlled if we worry about people misunderstanding Islam. Even for Sister Se7en (who is very right to me in her points) to condemn the WTC guys, although I strongly strongly agree with her, we cannot say they are not mujahideen and "khalaas" (finished). There is large difference of opinion on this, and even opinion that I agree with cannot be concluded by us as the absolute truth.  Let Allah Subhana be the judge.  Our job is to follow what He has commanded. Past our anger, which is the first sign of the loss of our sabr (patience), let us realize that vehemence and emotion in making statements makes us no more right than another, nor does speaking matter-of-factly, nor does speaking directly to and about the personal lives of one another. Let us refrain from being angry with one another, or like Sister Nouha, hold our peace till we can cool our heads and say something tactfully. What makes us [closer to being] right is when, in my opinion which may be wrong, We take the love, compassion and mercy that Allah Subhana gives us and that Muhammad SAW has shown us in his living example of life, And apply it to seeing situations, to acting upon our stresses, when speaking to one another, when treating brethren in faith and brethren in humanity, when understanding Islam, and when finding the Sirat-al-Mustaqueem (The Straight Path). I think in searching for Islam, brother QAK realizes that he was not trying to make a blanket statement as well, but just that his point wasn't made artfully enough to put the condition of inconclusiveness into it. Wa'Allahu Alam. asalamu alaikum. abdullah,.

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
mujaahid
12/20/01 at 15:38:24
Assalaamu-alaikum Abdullah You were doing well until this point. <So why weren't they attacked before the WTC if this wasn't about terrorism?> They had been, 1998, Sudan, Afghanistan, cruise missiles and Al-Qaeda camps, forgotten that? Also, according to Pakistan mnisters, the USA as early as june were planning to attack afghanistan. Sept 11th just made it look justified. <Russia has the ability to do serious damage as well, they don't actually do it though> Because they don't have the courage to take on the americans, unlike the muslims. <o you think Al Qaida still have serious potential? And where is it now, with the security heightened?> well the fact they blew up 200 US marines on Eid shows thier potential still. The fact that Bin-laadin, according to the Saudi intelligence, is not even the main head, shows their potential. The fact that a major guerilla war is going on in afghanistan right now, is proof to their potential. The fact that 300 Al-qaeda Arab families, were given protection by the Afghans a2 weeks back, shows how much they are loved by the common people! The fact that the suck the USS cole shows thier potential, remeber it wasnt a MASSIVE army that sunk it, just 5 men on a little inflatable boat! <And btw, you agree with the WTC?> What do you think? Of course i do NOT agree with it. Neiter do i belive it was al-qaeda who done it. [quote] These freedom fighters, the heroes of islaam, are the few who stood upto the USA, and i love them dearly, as i'm sure many, if not most muslims do.[/quote] <I'm sure many muslims do, along with agreeing with the what, "collateral death" of hundreds of innocent muslims and even the death of inncent kaffirs? "Heroes if Islam" running planes into buildings?> Where is the proof? The US has to fabricate videos, they showed NO proof to the taliban when they wanted bin laadin. The US also claim 5 US soldeirs have died since the campaign began, when in fact according to Mujaahideen sources, the figure is closer to 800!!! WHo do you believe? <That's the kind of emotional, unobjective talk that make sus muslims looks savage and brainless in my opinion.> Really? <As well, so you concede to the fact that Al Qaida is responsible for this then, if they "stood up" to the US?> No i am not referring to that, i am referring to standing upto the US by blowing up the US military bases, sinking thier ships, and the such, fighting the US in afghanistan. If Al-qaeda dont fight off the US, who will? That brave pakistan army? Yeah right! The same army that likes america stroking them! <Lets look all over this board, most people condemn terrorism, as well, the homepage clearly has links to muslims condemning the attacks.> Yes, and thats your proof that they dont see the Mujaahideen as heroes? Is this the same kind of solid evidence that Bush uses? <Seems to me like your in territory that doesn't agree with you.> The fact that 95% of the muslim here support the taleban and supporting the mujaahideen is to me more then enough reassurance that i am on home soil! I mean come on, you KNOW we are ALL against terrorism. That is not the issue. The taleban were not terrorist, Al-qaeda did not attack the WTC, therefore you have seen huge support for these people! I see you are one of few who agrees with the USA war on bombing innocent muslims, obliterating innocent lives, in the name of figting terrorism, or am i wrong? <Lesser of two evils? I don't want either thank you, my view of mujahideen are obviously different from yours.> So now your saying you dont agree with fighting Jihad? You saying Mujaahideen are not fightign for islaam? <Yes, long live the Mujahideen who follow Islamic instruction and intention to complete the tasks.> Who? Those Mujaahideen in Afghanistan? Those Mujjahideen in Sudan, Somalia, Kashmir, Chechnya? Dont you agree they are fighting for thier freedom and for islaam? Dont you also know they have major linmks with Al-qaeda? <And if Al Qaida didn't do it, or OBL, then why do you say they stand up to the US?> I already mentioned this, they fight the US armies, tey bomb, and strike fear into the US military who occupy Saudi, and Iraq, they sink the US ships who bomb the iraqi muslims. THIS is why they stand up to the USA. <Its like a kid who steals and then gets angry when accused- prove it now, he says.  Why did you pick me?> Osama bin-laadin from the start said he had nothng to do with the attacks on New York. Do you accuse him of lying? If so prove it. Do not make accusations agianst a muslim like that, and not be able to back it up. He said from the start he was innocent of the accusatons, and the muslim world believes him. If the USA are so sure he done it, why dont they show the taleban the proof? Why not show the world the proof? Why did Bush clearly say their will be no "negotiotion, that thier is nothing to discuss"? If they had evidence, they would have discussed much. <So would we be proud either way if they did it or not?> He didnt do it, thats why i am so proud of him. He didnt do it, and the taleban took his word, and sisnce the USA showed them no proof of his guilt, they refused to hand him over. OK so many muslims died, but they die shaheed, they go to paradise. But the Muslims did not compromise thier loyalty. They were not gona hand over an innocent man, no matter what. May Allah reward them for it. Finally bro, i am glad to see you finally agree the war is ON islaam, even though you say also on terrorism (i see IRA, ETA etc are free and safe)

Re: Muslim Poll: Two-thirds Say War Is Against Terrorism, Not Islam
bhaloo
12/20/01 at 16:53:46
slm Ok, some of these posts here are inappropriate.  There is a way to discuss and present ideas, and appearantly some people don't get it.  The main purpose of this board is a dawah board, not to get into some discussions and argue until someone gives up.  People on here have different levels of knowledge, and throwing in different topics and ideas when one particular thing is being discussed is confusing for many.   Let's work on helping people to understand Islam, clearing up the misconceptions, and reaching out to other people.  We are not here to win arguments, but to win hearts.  At the Eid khutbah I went to, the sheikh mentioned that on average 25,000 people convert to Islam a year in America.  Since September 11th, 24,000 people have converted, alhumdullilah.  4 times as many people are converting!  I personally have been contacted by different Christian groups interested in learning about Islam.  On this board in the last year or two we have had a few people become Muslim.  I think sister Caraj is ready to become a Muslim herself, if she hasn't already taken the shahada.  She needs our help, and she seems really sincere, and I think she has been extremely patient and posted a lot of questions about becoming Muslim.  We need to set our priorities straight.  Posting 10 posts in this thread and arguing with someone and making them mad should not be a priority on anyone's list.   Let's quit assuming things that our brothers/sisters are saying, because that is just plain wrong, and it obviously hurts people. Also let me say this, I am not aware of any person in any discussion, weather its this board, the hundred plus emails I get daily, or other discussions praise the attacks or say the attacks were justifiable Islamically. I'm locking this thread now.  Please use your time wisely, and let's focus on helping each other to improve themselves, and advise each other with wisdom.
NS
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