Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Marital Converts |
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| mujaahid |
| 12/24/01 at 13:03:57 |
| Assalaamu-alaikum I was listening to a radio broadcast via receiver from our local mosque. In the lecture the imam said that a lot of problems were being caused caused for the Ummah by phony converts, i.e. those people who convert to marry a boyfriend or girlfriend. He said thier conversions were suspect to ay the least, and were not in the interests of islaam, or the individuals. He mentioned that many of the muslim puppet leaders are married to phony converts, including king hussein of jordan, his son, yassr arafat etc. Now i wonder how much of an influence these women have on the men to make them have the policies they do? Also for the individual families it aint too good because the womns conversion was just to keep her boyfriend happy, and is usually the only way or circumstance under which her man will marry her, so they convert to keep hold of him. I have always felt that such converts were suspect to say the least. I personally would never marry anyone who would convert to marry me. I would have no problem marrying a convert/revert who converted/reverted long before they ever met me, as their reason would simply have been for the love of islaam, not not for the purpose of marrying a lover. How many bro's/sisters would feel comfortable with marrying a non-muslim who would convert to marry them? I wouldn't wanna marry such a person. They must convert for Allah and Islaam, not for me. If they convert for me, i would have serious doubt as to whether they converted for the right reasons. |
| u're makin an issue outta nothing.. |
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| princess |
| 12/24/01 at 13:20:13 |
| as'salaamualikum ;-D so what if they revert for the person, and not islam? ??? u can't say that it's wrong of them to do so, if they r u boyfriend/girlfriend..:) u can't question someone's intention..we all know that :) if it wasn't for u..they wouldn't revert..:) think positive..;-D and if they do it for u, and not islam, inshAllah, the spouse can/should help them see islam's beauty..:) if someone reverted for me..i'd be sort of flattered..;-D because they wanna plz me..and yes, i know, we should all plz Allah, and not fellow beings, lekin, it'd then become [i]my[/i] responsibility to make sure, they r down with islam, and appreciate it as much as i do :) another note..if they r ur boy/girlfriend..would u really care if they reverted for U or for ISLAM? meaning, if 1 is muslim, and has a boy/girlfriend..then just gettin them to revert would be enough..@ least i think :) of course, this doesn't mean that i don't think there'd be problems :) lekin, problems arise with any situation..reverts or not..:) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| kiwi25 |
| 12/24/01 at 13:52:50 |
| salam, ive heard a similar case where people convert in jail just so they can hopefully get an early realease. as for marrying someone who converted for me, like princess id be flattered but id want to see that they did a complete 360 degrees first, id get a good brother in the community to help him out, and then pray salatul istikharah to see how things should go..... wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| mujaahid |
| 12/24/01 at 14:09:24 |
| Assalaamu-alaikum Princess Must you put so many smilies on your posts? Its freaking me out :) <so what if they revert for the person, and not islam?> lol!!! I wasnt expecting a blunt statement like that! What do you mean so what? Like its nothing big, its massive! Islaam means submit, submit to the will of Allah, NOT to the will of your lover!! Come on, of course its a big thing if you convert for a boyfriend. <we all know that if it wasn't for u..they wouldn't revert> Exactly! Meaning they would not have done it for islaam! <the spouse can/should help them see islam's beauty> But that depends on the spouse. Most practising bro's will NOT have girlfriends!!!! Therefore it seems the non-practising bros are the ones who have the girlfriends. Now if THEY dont practise, the beauty of islaam, how on earth is this girl gona see the beauty of islaam when her boyfriend is a guy who most likely goes clubbing, probably drinks, and probably dont behave too islaamic in behavoiur of speech! Now my Royal Sister, you tell me how such a person will show a non-muslim person the beauty of islaam? <if they r ur boy/girlfriend..would u really care if they reverted for U or for ISLAM?> Depends. If they are not practising, then of course they dont care! If they ARE practising, then its unlikely they will have a girl/boyfriend, which then leads to the question, Well how did they get invloved with a women! Well simple, you could be studying at uni together, be placed in a group together, you could be working with the person at work, which means you have contact with each other, you probably talk to your work colleagues. Now a practising bro such as myself would not talk about anything unislaamic with a women, or flirt etc, but i would be prepared to hold a conversation on everyday life, or on islaam, and as i have found, the most unlikely of people seem to really wanna know about islaam, as they hear so much of it, but never understand it, so to have someone actually who practises it, who is muslim, and is prepared to explain it to them, they are all gripped on what your saying!!! THAT is how decent bros may be in a situation where a women falls in love and wants to convert to marry them. OK so what i'm saying is a person will care/not care if a women converts for him depending on his faith, and how strong it is. An example, a junkie muslim who lives near me, has married a black girl, she is a convert to islaam, but converted to marry him, as he got her pregnant. Now the guy dont practice, neither does she. She walks around in a miniskirt in summer. I dont see how her husband showed her the beauty of islaam. She simply converted to marry him. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| akbalkhan |
| 12/24/01 at 14:27:54 |
| As Salamu Alaykum, I reverted to al-Islam in order to marry a Muslim lady. At the time, I was not aware of any laws or rules for guidance in such situations. We got married without her parents consent, and this caused her much grief and problems in the marriage. Eventually I truly embraced al-Islam, and expected for my wife to also take care of her obligations as a wife and Muslim. To say the least it did not work out. I met my present wife, and she was a Catholic at the time. I gave dawah to her, and she wanted to convert to al-Islam after 10 days. She reverted in order to marry me, sure. However, the truth of al-Islam is what engaged her. It was a couple months of difficulty in teaching her how to pray, and learn Arabic for the prayers. I learned from my first marriage that a woman comes upon her responsibilities and rights as a wife on her own, and that my duty was only to encourage her to make salaat, and the rest will come, insha'Allah. Now she is the one who keeps me on the salaat, with her love and fulfilling obligations, reminds me of my own, and provides me with the determination to keep us both learning and growing. Her courage and strength have given me a new perspective on how wondeful reversion is and how much people really do change. I guess my story really illustrates both points already made. That there is a reason to be both suspicious of reversions for love, and amazed at what can result. Reversion in al-Islam may not always be for the right reasons. But those who make the declaration, regardless of how many faults they may have, do not deserve our suspicion or judgements on their belief. They need our help and tolerance, our companionship and guidance, our support and mercy. In the process of teaching my wife about al-Islam, I have rediscovered it. And in seeing her determination, I have found a new tolerance and responsibility. Anyone who reverts to al-Islam has truly opened the doors to success in this life and the next. Perhaps how they turn out, can be more a reflection of how well we live up to our responsibility as an Ummah, then how sincere their reversion was. Shukran for opening this thread, and posting your comments. Regards, QAK |
| hota hai.. |
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| princess |
| 12/24/01 at 14:36:33 |
| walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;-D [quote]Must you put so many smilies on your posts? Its freaking me out :)[/quote] yes, i must ;-D [quote]What do you mean so what? Like its nothing big, its massive! Islaam means submit, submit to the will of Allah, NOT to the will of your lover!![/quote] yes, i know the meaning of islam :) and i know it has nothing to do with ur lover :) [quote]Most practising bro's will NOT have girlfriends!!!! Therefore it seems the non-practising bros are the ones who have the girlfriends. Now if THEY dont practise, the beauty of islaam, how on earth is this girl gona see the beauty of islaam....Now my Royal Sister, you tell me how such a person will show a non-muslim person the beauty of islaam? [/quote] that's what [i]i'm[/i] saying dude :) if u've got a girlfriend..do u care if she converted because of islam? i would think the person who's being reverted for, would be doing it for their family's sake..not Allah's :) [quote]a junkie muslim who lives near me, has married a black girl, she is a convert to islaam, but converted to marry him, as he got her pregnant. She simply converted to marry him. [/quote] hmm..junkie muslim? nice profiling :) why don't u help the brotha out? perhaps ask him to come over for dinner..or take him out :) i wouldn't recommend takin him to something "religious" as that might turn him off :) and like i said..1 can't question "why" someone reverted to islam..:) U think she did because she got pregnant..and maybe she did..lekin u should give her/him the benefit of the doubt :) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| mujaahid |
| 12/24/01 at 15:14:40 |
| Assalaamu-alaikum <yes, i must ;-D> lol OK!!!! If it keeps you happy :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) And just for luck :) :) :) :) :) :) :) <hmm..junkie muslim? nice profiling> Thats putting it nicely. <why don't u help the brotha out?> I will not even speak to the guy. He isnt a muslim as far as i know, only buy name. He has NEVER been to a mosque, even the most jaahil go to mosque at least on eid. He takes, sells, and is addicted to drugs. Used to be a major criminal when younger. <perhaps ask him to come over for dinner..or take him out> You mean take him out as in kill him? Or do you mean on a date? If your referring to the second point, i should point out i'm not gay ;) <U think she did because she got pregnant..and maybe she did..lekin u should give her/him the benefit of the doubt> What does Lekin mean? You use the word a lot :) Anyway i know what i see! I aint stupid, seeing a woman in miniskirts and almost in her underwear walking around to me gives enough indication that her conversion was not for islaam! Lekin, Lekin, Lekin, hey lets have a Lekin party :) :) :) Qamar Akbaal Kaan Jazaakullah for sharing your story with us! Its interesting to see that you have expereinced both sides of the conversion, i.e. conversions not working, and another conversion DID work!!! I guess your living proof that conversions depend on the peolpe, and their character. Some people "lovers" are so weak, that at the thought of loosing thier lover, they prefer to become a muslim, rather than loose their boyfriend!!! In cases where the muslim is NOT practising, the marriage is doomed to failure. However if one partner IS practising, then they can help the other out, as you found in your second marriage!!!!! It depends on the people, and thier imaan. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| se7en |
| 12/24/01 at 16:13:16 |
| [quote]I have always felt that such converts were suspect to say the least. [/quote] as salaamu alaykum, I know a lot of people that have embraced Islam because they were interested or involved with someone who is Muslim. Some people who have been introduced to Islam in this way have come to be some of the most active and awesome Muslims we have in the ummah. So I don't think it's fair for you to discount these people as "phony converts" or whatever. Yes of course, there are those who get their girl/boy to convert just so that their relationship can be 'legitimate'.. but even in these cases, perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to judge. At least there is an *attempt* to make what they're doing halal, instead of openly disobeying the laws Allah has prescribed for us. I know Muslims who wouldn't even go so far as to make that sort of attempt. And in these cases, sometimes the non-Muslim takes it upon themself to find out more about Islam.. I've gotten quite a few emails from girls "whose boyfriends are Muslim" who want to know what Islam is all about. There are even people on this board who are married to Muslims, have taken the shahada, and are now really trying to study Islam seriously. All I'm saying is.. no matter *how* a person is introduced to Islam, there is always the chance that they may come to accept it whole heartedly. And in some cases, people may have become Muslim for the *right* reasons, yet you and I assume that that's not the case. And as for this woman in the mini-skirt.. if I understood you correctly, she did take the shahada. Whether she did it for the right reasons or not, she is *still* your sister in Islam, and she has rights over you, and one of those rights is that you don't speak of her in a way that she would dislike. If you really are concerned for her condition, you should do what you can to educate her and help her become better. Making not so nice comments about the length of her skirt on a public message board won't do much for her, I don't think. wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah. ps - there is a story of a sahabia that seems really relevant here.. all I can remember is that she became Muslim and a very wealth non-Muslim man sought to marry her.. she refused and I think eventually he became Muslim. I'll look it up inshaAllah.. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Hajreee |
| 12/24/01 at 15:56:56 |
| Salaams Lekin= but so she says said maybe the girl converted cause she got pregnant, lekin, give her the benefit of the doubt = maybe the girl converted cause she got pregnant, but, give her the benefit of the doubt! Get It?! :) and hehe, the smilies are part of princess, i don't think a post would be complete without her numerous smilies! hehehe :) :) :) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| princess |
| 12/24/01 at 16:25:54 |
| walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;-D [quote]I will not even speak to the guy. He isnt a muslim as far as i know, only buy name. He has NEVER been to a mosque, even the most jaahil go to mosque at least on eid. He takes, sells, and is addicted to drugs. Used to be a major criminal when younger. [/quote] that's wrong :o straight up :) u aren't gonna get anywhere with an attitude like that :) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| NewJehad |
| 12/24/01 at 16:56:17 |
| slm I know of this female who got her boy friend to become muslim to marry him, and then he did and learnt more about islam and started practicing it and she didnt like that so she left him and got another boy friend, who dumped her, and then she tried killing herself. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Arsalan |
| 12/24/01 at 17:23:01 |
| [slm] Many people accepted Islam during the lifetime of Rasulullah [saw] for ulterior motives. As Islam became more and more dominant over the region, the tribes around Arabia began entering Islam to reap worldly benefits. It is about such people that Surat al-Hujuraat talks about when it says ... "Qaalat al-a3raabu aamannaa, qul lam tu'minoo walaakin qooloo aslamnaa ..." i.e. The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith: but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah.'" (49:14) Another thing that comes to mind is one of the categories of people that are eligible to receive zakaah - [i]mu'allafah quloobuhum[/i] - i.e. those whose hearts need to be reconciled. Basically, these are people who are leaning towards Islam but need some sort of a financial push to enter into the Deen. Islamic history is filled with incidents where nations upon nations entered Islam in order to become a part of the "superpower of the time," to benefit from the achievements of Muslims (whether material achievements, spiritual, moral, etc.) Eventually, these people (very much like the bedouins of the time of the Prophet) saw the true beauty of Islam and, in essence, became true Muslims! Mujaahid is right in that true Islam is not what you enter into for an ulterior motive. True Islam is where your mind, body and soul (heart) submit themselves completely to Allah (swt), not out of any compulsion, but simply because they *wish* to do so in order to achieve His Pleasure! However, the question that we all need to ask is, do any of *us* really fit this description of "true Muslims?" P.S. I was also thinking about that incident which se7en talked about in her post script. Can't remember the exact incident, but basically a sahaabiyah made it a condition for this man who wanted to marry her that he must accept Islam first. He did accept Islam. And she did marry him. Wallahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| amal |
| 12/24/01 at 17:48:23 |
| slm, Here's the story of the sahabia se7en was talking about: Rumaysa bint Milhan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Even before Islam was introduced to Yathrib, Rumaysa was known for her excellent character, the power of her intellect and her independent attitude of mind. She was known by various names including Rumaysa and Ghumaysa, but these were possibly nicknames. One historian says that her real name was Sahlah but later she was popularly known as Umm Sulaym. Umm Sulaym was first married to Malik ibn an-Nadr and her son by this marriage was the famous Anas ibn Malik, one of the great companions of the Prophet. Umm Sulaym was one of the first women of Yathrib to accept Islam. She was influenced by the refined, dedicated and persuasive Musab ibn Umayr who was sent out as the first missionary or ambassador of Islam by the noble Prophet. This was after the first pledge of Aqabah. Twelve men of Yathrib had gone to Aqabah on the outskirts of Makkah to pledge loyalty to the Prophet. This was the first major break through for the mission of the Prophet for many years. Umm Sulaym's decision to accept Islam was made without the knowledge or consent of her husband, Malik ibn an-Nadr. He was absent from Yathrib at the time and when he returned he felt some change had come over his household and asked his wife: "Have you been rejuvenated?" "No," she said, "but I (now) believe in this man (meaning the Prophet Muhammad)." Malik was not pleased especially when his wife went on to announce her acceptance of Islam in public and instruct her son Anas in the teachings and practice of the new faith. She taught him to say la ilaha ilia Allah and Ash hadu anna Muhammada-r Rasulullah. The young Anas repeated this simple but profound declaration of faith clearly and emphatically. Umm Sulaym's husband was now furious. He shouted at her: "Don't corrupt my son." "I am not corrupting him ," she replied firmly. Her husband then left the house and it is reported that he was set upon by an enemy of his and was killed. The news shocked but apparently did not upset Umm Sulaym greatly. She remained devoted to her son Anas and was concerned about his. proper upbringing. She is even reported to have said that she would not marry again unless Anas approved. When it was known that Umm Sulaym had become a widow, one man, Zayd ibn Sahl, known as Abu Talhah, resolved to become engaged to her before anyone else did. He was rather confident that Umm Sulaym would not pass him over for another. He was after all a strong and virile person who was quite rich and who possessed an imposijg house that was much admired. He was an accomplished horseman and a skilful archer and, moreover, he belonged to the same clan as Umm Sulaym, the Banu Najjar. Abu Talhah proceeded to Umm Sulaym's house. On the way he recalled that she had been influenced by the preaching of Musab ibn Umayr and had become a Muslim. "So what?" he said to himself. "Was not her husband who died a firm adherent of the old religion and was he not opposed to Muhammad and his mission?" Abu Talhah reached Umm Sulaym's house. He asked and was given permission to enter. Her son Anas was present. Abu Talhah explained why he had come and asked for her hand in marriage. "A man like you, Abu Talhah ," she said, "is not (easily) turned away. But I shall never marry you while you are a kafir, an unbeliever." Abu Talhah thought she was trying to put him off and that perhaps she had already preferred someone wealthier and more influential. He said to her: "What is it that really prevents you from accepting me, Umm Sulaym? Is it the yellow and the white metals (gold and silver)?" [color=red]"Gold and silver?" she asked somewhat taken aback and in a slightly censuring tone. "Yes," he said. "I swear to you, Abu Talhah, and I swear to God and His Messenger that if you accept Islam, I shall be pleased to accept you as a husband, without any gold or silver. I shall consider your acceptance of Islam as my mahr."[/color] Abu Talhah understood well the implications of her words. His mind turned to the idol he had made from wood and on which he lavished great attention in the same way that important men of his tribe venerated and cared for their personal idols. The opportunity was right for Umm Sulaym to stress the futility of such idol worship and she went on: "Don't you know Abu Talhah, that the god you worship besides Allah grew from the earth?" "That's true," he said. "Don't you feel stupid while worshipping part of a tree while you use the rest of it for fuel to bake bread or warm yourself? (If you should give up these foolish beliefs and practices) and become a Muslim, Abu Talhah, I shall be pleased to accept you as a husband and I would not want from you any sadaqah apart from your acceptance of Islam." "Who shall instruct me in Islam?" asked Abu Talhah. "I shall," Umm Sulaym replied. "How?" "Utter the declaration of truth and testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Then go to your house, destroy your idol and throw it away." Abu Talhah left and reflected deeply on what Umm Sulaym had said. He came back to her beaming with happiness. "I have taken your advice to heart. I declare that there is no god but Allah and I declare that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah." Umm Sulaym and Abu Talhah were married. Anas, her son, was pleased and the Muslims would say: "We have never yet heard of a mahr that was more valuable and precious than that of Umm Sulaym for she made Islam her mahr." Umm Sulaym was pleased and delighted with her new husband who placed his unique energies and talents in the service of Islam. He was one of the seventy three men who swore allegiance to the Prophet at the second Pledge of Aqabah. With him, according to one report, was his wife Umm Sulaym. Two other women, the celebrated Nusaybah bint Kab and Asma bint Amr witnessed Aqabah and took the oath of allegiance to the Prophet. Abu Talhah was devoted to the Prophet and took enormous delight in simply looking at him and listening to the sweetness of his speech. He participated in all the major military campaigns. He lived a very ascetic life and was known to fast for long periods at a time. It is said that he had a fantastic orchard in Madinah with date palms and grapes and running water. One day while he was performing Salat in the shade of the trees, a beautiful bird with brightly colored plumage flew in front of him. He became engrossed in the scene and forgot how many rakats he had prayed. Two? Three? When he completed the Prayer he went to the Prophet and described how he had been distracted. In the end, he said: "Bear witness, Messenger of Allah, that I hand over this orchard as a charity for the sake of Allah, the Exalted." Abu Talhah and Umm Sulaym had an exemplary Muslim family life, devoted to the Prophet and the service of Muslims and Islam. The Prophet used to visit their home. Sometimes when the time of Prayer came, he would pray on a mat provided by Umm Sulaym. Sometimes also he would have a siesta in their house and, as he slept, she would wipe the perspiration from his forehead. Once when the Prophet awoke from his siesta, he asked: "Umm Sulaym, what are you doing?" "I am taking these (drops of perspiration) as a barakah (blessing) which comes from you ," she replied. At another time, the Prophet went to their house and Umm Sulaym offered him dates and butterfat but he did not have any of it because he was fasting. Occasionally, she would send her son Anas with bags of dates to his house. It was noticed that the Prophet, peace be on him, had a special compassion for Umm Sulaym and her family and when asked about it, he replied: "Her brother was killed beside me." Umm Sulaym also had a well-known sister, Umm Haram, the wife of the imposing Ubadah ibn as-Samit. She died at sea during a naval expedition and was buried in Cyprus. Umm Sulaym's husband, Abu Talhah, also died while he was on a naval expedition during the time of the third Caliph, Uthman, and was buried at sea. Umm Sulaym herself was noted for her great courage and bravery. During the Battle of Uhud, she carried a dagger in the folds of her dress. She gave water to and tended the wounded and she made attempts to defend the Prophet when the tide of battle was turning against him. At the Battle of Khandaq, the Prophet saw her carrying a dagger and he asked her what she was doing with it. She said: "It is to fight those who desert." "May God grant you satisfaction in that," replied the Prophet. In the face of adversity, Umm Sulaym displayed a unique calmness and strength. One of her young sons (Umayr) fell sick and died while her husband was away looking after his orchards. She bathed the child and wrapped him in shrouds. She told others at her home that they should not inform Abu Talhah because she herself wanted to tell him. Umm Sulaym had another son whose name was Abdullah. A few days after she gave birth, she sent Anas with the baby and a bag of dates to the Prophet. The Prophet placed the baby on his lap. He crushed the dates in his mouth and put some in the baby's mouth. The baby sucked the dates with relish and the Prophet said: "The Ansar are only fond of dates." Abdullah eventually grew up and had seven children all of whom memorized the Quran. Umm Sulaym was a model Muslim, a model wife and mother. Her belief in God was strong and uncompromising. She was not prepared to endanger her faith and the upbringing of her children for wealth and luxury, however abundant and tempting. She was devoted to the Prophet and dedicated her son Anas to his service. She took the responsibility of educating her children and she played an active part in public life, sharing with the other Muslims the hardships and the joys of building a community and living for the pleasure of God. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Rashid |
| 12/24/01 at 22:01:50 |
| [slm] Subhanaallah what a beautiful story, obviously there are many lessons to be gained from reading it. Regarding marital converts, personally I wouldn't accept someone converting for me...I mean, on the day of judgement, I won't be of any help to anyone. I get no worldly benefit from someone becoming Muslim. The intention should be for Allah, not for anyone else. But in situations which NJ described, such as work, school, etc...if Allah uses you to guide people to Islam, obviously this is a great blessing. But all that "I have a GF and we've been dating and now we want to get married so she should become muslim" Sorry, that doesn't cut it with me. NJ is right, most practicing bros will not have GF. End of story. [wlm] |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| akbalkhan |
| 12/24/01 at 23:23:20 |
| As Salamu Alayka, You are absolutely right about being so repulsed by and disappointed in brothers and sisters in al-Islam, dating. I feel the same way as you. Also, we would assume all practicing Muslims would not have a girlfriend, but it is no safer an assumption, also assuming the intentions of someone making shahada. You said: "I get no worldly benefit from someone becoming Muslim." Should that be a motivation for helping someone revert? The fact is, if you are pivotal in someone embracing al-Islam, for whatever reason, you may get the reward for every one of their good actions, even after you are dead! I believe that crazy idea is supported by Quranic text which I shall try to find if you doubt it or have never heard that before. You said: "Regarding marital converts, personally I wouldn't accept someone converting for me." I am honestly curious here as to what you mean. Does this mean that you would never let a kafr woman approach you in anyway? What if she just came up to you and said, you know "I've had my eye on you, and I know you are Muslim. Your conduct, good character, and devotion have inspired me. I want to embrace Islam, and have our parents talk and see where it goes." You wouldn't even entertain the idea? Is there no scenario where you would even think about it? Not having a girlfriend, but marrying someone who is going to or has recently reverted. That's missing out on a lot of barakat, potentially. Regards, QAK |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 12/25/01 at 03:39:25 |
| [quote]Here's the story of the sahabia se7en was talking about: Rumaysa bint Milhan [/quote] [slm] For jannah.org history buffs, she RA was the subject of [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=special&action=display&num=3435]Question #8[/url] in the WWTBAM I. [slm]:) |
| Re: Marital ˙Converts |
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| se7en |
| 12/25/01 at 03:44:58 |
| I wanna name my kid Rumaysa :) "rumi! come here! didn't I tell you not to play with that?!" hehe :) salaam |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| siddiqui |
| 12/25/01 at 05:56:36 |
| assalam alikum conviction/Marrige/money /early release?--- Reverts to Islam What ever the reason they sure have got the hidayath from Allah swt to read the kalimah for they are so many in this wordl who dont get that chance imagine there fate Well there might be some defeciences in these people, but who dosent have them lets all look into our hearts and see the level of islam we have , if we die just now would we be able to face Allah swt? what garauntee we have that we will enter jannah If there are deficiencies are we making an attempt to help him/her correct them? are we presenting islam with hikmah and love? are we reprsenting islam at all? by making an allegation/"zann" arent we commiting a sin? lets stop pointing fingers ? its time to look within? for the time is too short wassalam |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Anik |
| 12/26/01 at 15:11:38 |
| asalaamu alaikum, I think marital converts is an issue that should be judged by Allah SWT and Him Alone. There's one thing we will have to understand. A PERFECT muslim (is that even possible?) will never mess up. Then again, since we are all imperfect there is a chance that some of us may be muslims and still do the gf/bf thing. many people post up here and ask "what should I do about this relationship?" and so on... they are just as muslim, even if they have gf and bf's. Of course, its best and the only morally acceptable situation not to have one. Next thing, which is better, for someone to come to Islam out of a duniya-situation, or not at all? Looking at it that way, its better to put them on the right path even if they don't realize they are on it, then help them get to eternal damnation and ditch them. Conversion for marriage is a duniya situation... so is conversion for reasons of depression, fear, social adjustment, acceptance, emptiness, all of the such. It can often take a situation like this to put people on the right path. Look for example at conversion for social adjustment- all the muslim countries where the population is majority converted muslims... do you think they all saw the "light"? I have a feeling that many muslims around the globe have accepted Islam to "fit in"... where Islam has been wrongly forced on people or they were left with little choice, they did accept it... but now look, these people have come to not only ACCEPT Islam, but to EMBRACE Islam... it is only to their own harm if they are munafiq, and only to your fault if we don't accept these people as "real muslims" just because they are less convinced. (NOTE: phony muslim here in my opinion would be one who, say, converts to marry and feels that Islam is wrong, or doesn't believe in God, but one who sort of "goes with the flow" and remains open to Islam is not a phony, but a "young muslim" in terms of spiritual development. Look at me even. I first became interested in Islam after I met Sadiya, we spoke about Islam. When we realized we felt for each other, we soon realized the reality: she would only marry a muslim. I agreed to "give it a shot" and check out Islam. So I separated myself from her for this and started on my journey: Let me tell you how "phony" I was in the beginning. As a non-muslim, I fasted a few days during last Ramadan. I gave up pork. Picked up a book from a friend's shelf which changed my life, Islam in Focus by Hamid Abdulati. Gave up haraam meat here and there. Made wudu at some random times but never prayed. Had a drink (astag'ferlah) occasionally and still read up on Islam. Then "faking it" went to reading, which turned to pondering, pondering turned to soul-searching, then to realizing, then to making a decision: I went to the masjid for the first time, took shahada (I don't know if any of you remember that night when I recounted it a while back), and BAM! I began practising as a muslim. All from "buying in to this idea" of some muslim thing. Before my "Islam for marriage" mission, I though it was just a violent religion with uneducated and narrow minded followers. Look at what even being the chance of being "phony" has led me to now... my Islam is what keeps me strong by the grace of Allah SWT Insha'Allah... Sadiya ever since increased her practice of Islam... again, first for "our sake" (aka. "phony") and then, for herself... we improved ourselves, saved ourselves just for each other, and now... we are getting married Insha'Allah in a few days and both of us, one born and the other reverted, came out of our *phoniness* to really want Islam and Allah SWT to guide our hearts. (wow, even though I've been asked many times, I've never *REALLY* given my reversion story before) But it was in being phony that we realized what it means to be true to something. And so, I would say that if they convert to marry and can follow the tenents of Islam, give them a chance- that is how our ummah will grow. Imagine all of the kaffir women of America were to suddenly fall for all the muslim brothers, and the kaffir men for muslim sisters, and they all reverted to Islam for marriage, well then we'd have a muslim society where it would be easier to make "real muslims" than in a society where Islam isn't even accepted. The key to seeing any conversion duing marriage is whether that person can live within the framework- faith will grow from there if Allah Subhana wants. asalamau alaikum. abdullah,. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Rashid |
| 12/26/01 at 20:19:50 |
| [slm] [quote]You said: "I get no worldly benefit from someone becoming Muslim."[/quote] What I meant was that I'm not getting paid, I'm not receiving any awards, or meeting some missionary quota. So obviously dunya is not my motivation. [quote]You said: "Regarding marital converts, personally I wouldn't accept someone converting for me."[/quote] Someone coming to Islam, this is a serious thing. It's not a situation of "let me try it out, see how it goes" In such a situation, I would proceed something like how Abdullah did, where you cut off contact for a while, study and learn the practice of Islam, apply it to your life, and then see if you are compatible for marriage. I would like to ensure that this is something she really wants, if she's converting to make me happy or something other than actually accepting Allah in her heart, this is unacceptable to me. I mean, marriage is such a serious matter, so much that it is 1/2 of your deen. Take for example the case of a girl who just last week or last month was clubbing, dating, drinking, etc...and now she wants to be Muslim: alhamdulilah! But people don't change overnight. Even I, who have been Muslim for four years, sometimes struggle with establishing the shariah in my life. How then, do we expect a new Muslim to do the same? This is why I frown upon marital conversions. The correct approach in my opinion is to remove yourself from haram activities like dating and flirting, and then when you feel ready to seek a partner do it the proper way, asking around, speaking to her wali, etc. [wlm] |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Arsalan |
| 12/26/01 at 23:25:26 |
| [slm] Brother Abdullah, that's a really touching story! Jazak Allahu khairan for sharing it. I don't think converts realize how much their conversion stories move Muslims who were born into Islam. May Allah reward your wife-to-be (insha Allah) for giving you that initial push to learn about Islam. And may He continue to guide you, her and all the rest of us to that Path which leads to His Pleasure. Ameen. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Kathy |
| 12/27/01 at 17:28:52 |
[quote]I don't think converts realize how much their conversion stories move Muslims who were born into Islam [/quote] slm I alway wondered why so many Muslims ask! - You are right I never realized it... |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| solehah |
| 12/27/01 at 23:38:03 |
| Assalamualaikum wr wb Bismillahir Rahmannir Rahim At the risk of offending someone, I have to say that this is a simple issue made complex :) *ducks head* Again, I always wonder why it is so easy for some of us to judge when what we don't realise is we have to carefully weigh our actions before we embroil ourselves in the affairs of others. I personally think that perfecting our ibadah and actions is a difficult enterprise that could potentially consume 100% of our time, let alone try and perfectise (is there a word?) others ? Now don't get me wrong. I dont mean that as Muslims we isolate ourselves from others and turn a blind eye when a sister or brother is explicitly committing a sinful act. Naturally, as a responsible Muslim, we have to ensure that not only do we take care of our actions, we have to also care and be concerned about our brothers and sisters. My main contention with some of the postings in this thread (forgive my audacity please) is the judgement of others' faith, or rather, the Quality of such faith. Why do we do what we do ? Can anyone else answer for us except ourselves and the Almighty ? Sometimes, we realise that we have difficulty trying to explain some of OUR actions, let alone try and explain others' actions. Maybe if its a physical action, say hitting a cat, one might try to make a judgement or an assessment of such an act (presuming we want to do so). But when it entails a very private and metaphysical phenomenon like faith, how can we ever claim that we can authoritatively make conclusions abt that ? Faith is the most beautiful yet the most complex existence that we can ever house in our jasad. We ALL grapple with our faith. Some of us endeavour to increase the level of our iman, some of us struggle to maintain our fervency, while some of us still ask questions. My biggest puzzlement is in judging the quality of others' faith when faith is something that is between one and ALlah. A man wants to revert cos he loves a Muslim woman. A woman wants to revert because she wants to marry a Muslim man. Thats the start point. Maybe we can have knowledge of their reasons for conversion because they told us of it. But can we have knowledge of what kind of Muslims they will be in future ? No we cant, because we cant even have knowledge of what kind of Muslims WE will be in the future. At best we can dua. Islam is a religion of beauty and love. Islam is not a religion of condescension, intolerance and rigid judgements. Even in the Syariah law there are many evidences of flexibility, tolerance and forgiveness. Who are we to say what is better than some ? Reverts revert because ALlah has decreed so. When you question the quality of one's reversion, you are inadvertently questioning ALlah's decision for its ALlah and ALlah alone who moves hearts towards our Deen. I have a friend who thinks Islam is beautiful, who admires the prophet SAW and who has been continuously learning about Islam. But he is not a Muslim yet, and I dont know if he ever will be one. I feel so immeasurably sad every time I think about him, but I always tell myself, ALlah has His reasons. In conclusion to this unforgivably lengthy piece, I want to entreat all brothers and sisters to show the true face of Islam to the world. One that is beautiful and spellbinding. Please welcome all interested parties to Islam and please embrace new reverts into our folds, regardless of reasons stated. For wars are won with weaponry but hearts are conquered with love. I think there are enough hatred, prejudices and tears in this world. Its time for healing and love. Wallahualam bissawab. Wassalam. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| kareema |
| 12/28/01 at 01:59:16 |
Actually, I think it could be simplified more easily. If you are a practicing and believing Muslim, you will want,need a spouse who is like that and will help raise your childrent like that. If you are looking for a perfect spouse, you won't find one amongst earlier converts or born muslims. No, no person can look into the heart of another, but seeing whether they do basics(like prayer) is one indication of what's in their heart. In the Quran, its says to judge by what Allah has revealed, so we need to try to look at perspective marriage mates from the viewpoint of Quran and Sunnah, which provides not only the fiqh but also a look into the soul of Islam. What would the Prophet(saws) think of your mate? I'm wary of this approach, 'everything is relative' is what is seems to be saying. Allah has not left us without any indications of a person's faith, in most cases. Also, whether a person has reverted in their heart is only known to Allah, but us humans can look for signs of that. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Hajreee |
| 12/29/01 at 01:33:09 |
| Salaams My first cousin married a revert, she's Mexican and he's Pakistani :) very *CUTE* couple! hehe mashaAllah! =) but the whole point is- my cousin wasn't really into islam, *hardly* into islam i might say, but he worked with my cousin's wife and she learned some stuff about islam and in the end, she learned more than him and made him a better person! he hasn't changed 360 degrees or anything, but he's changed a bit and islam does play a role in his life, whereas it didn't before at all... so yeah, it depends on the situation and the person, but for the most part, i think most marital conversions are for the better and have actually turned out well :)*mashaAllah* i read this thread a billion times whenever someone replied to it and then one day, i was like oh my gosh!! my cousin married a revert and it turned out for the better, mashaAllah, and i just thought i would share this lovely story with my fellow Jannah Citizens.... i know, i know....i'm nice, you can thank me later on for my kindness :D hee hee hee take care! TTFN :P Wa Salaams |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Kathy |
| 12/29/01 at 21:08:41 |
[quote] If you are looking for a perfect spouse, you won't find one amongst earlier converts or born muslims.[/quote] [i]Gasp... cough.... sputter...[/i] Uh... could you clarify this statememnt? |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| explorer |
| 12/29/01 at 21:31:51 |
| [quote]My first cousin married a revert, she's Mexican and he's Pakistani :)[/quote] Woah! :) Mexican-Pakistani couple! Thats the first I've ever heard of one ;) I've never met a Mexican in my life ;-D The countries and cultures are worlds apart but just shows, Islam breaks all barriers... |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Ayla_A |
| 12/30/01 at 01:02:52 |
| [slm] As for marrying a convert it does not really apply to my situation, since it is haram if I was not married to even be involved with a non-muslim. How it does apply to me is that I was not muslim when I met my husband. I did not have to be for him to marry me. We waited for 8 months to marry (did not date, because he was overseas) After we met in person we married 16 hours later so that we didn't do anything wrong so to speak. I converted/reverted 1.5 years into our marriage. He was very patient with me and answered my questions. He never forced me - ever, because he knew it was a decision that I would have to live with for my whole life, and even if God forbid our marriage did not work, he wanted to make sure that I would continue to be a muslim. (Which now I would, but I had I just reverted to be married to him, I probably would not have learned as much as I did.) He did not even know I was thinking about taking my Shahada until I said to him, okay, what do I have to do to take it!! He was sooo pleased, shocked, excited ....just so many emotions you can not even imagine!!! So I guess my only comment on this is that if you choose to marry a non-muslim women you have to take into your thought that she may never convert. Make sure that you discuss the fact of raising the children muslim. My husband and I discussed this in depth before we choose to marry. [wlm] Ayla_A |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| kareema |
| 12/30/01 at 02:04:39 |
| Salaams, What I meant was that if you are looking for a 100% perfect spouse, you won't find one amongst anybody, reverts and Muslims born into the faith. A person shouldn't be thinking along the lines of that sort of perfection, perfection is Allah's only. I guess it was addressed to people who said a revert would not be fully 100%, you should look instead for a life that mostly comes from love of Islam, with minor mistakes forgiven. I'm a born Muslim, but my parents were reverts, so no harm intended either way.:D |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Kathy |
| 12/31/01 at 11:28:03 |
| slm phew.... thanks for the clarification.... |
| get outta here.. |
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| princess |
| 12/31/01 at 19:13:34 |
| as'salaamualikum ;-D [quote]I've never met a Mexican in my life ;-D[/quote] no way! hahaah ;-D i find that soo odd :) only because i live in texas, (right above mexico) so like i can't even imagine [i]not[/i] seeing em :) wow..i just thought they were everywhere! ;-D yes, i'm not aware of my surroundings..sad..i know.. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| explorer |
| 12/31/01 at 20:38:12 |
| Yep its true!:) I've eaten Tortilla chips, veggie Tacos, like their music (kinda) and have a burning desire to visit Cancun but never met a Mexican ;-D .....and I can't remember if I've ever seen one either :o :D |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Kathy |
| 12/31/01 at 20:42:58 |
| slm In Chicago there is a wonderful group of Mexican Muslimahs- I remember being surprised when meeting them. What wonderful sisters they are!! |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| akbalkhan |
| 01/01/02 at 16:39:52 |
| As Salamu Alayka, On account of my peeps being brought up, I feel I have to respond. My wife is Mexican and a revert. She is a very devoted Muslimah and Hijabi, alhamdulillah. The only thing that I would like to warn on with the whole Mexican subject is that it is the tendency for many people from overseas to consider anyone who speaks Spanish, a Mexican, or to consider anyone who speaks Spanish, a Mexican. The term Mexican comes directly from a particular tribal affiliation like say the Pahstun of Afghanistan. It has only recently come to denote all those of citizenship of any ancestry European or not born in Mexico. That sounds really confusing, let me take another crack at it. The term Mexican comes from a single small group of Native North Americans who speak an Amer-Indian language called Nahuatl. Words like tomato, maize, ocelotl come from Nahuatl. These people came to rule over other tribes and clans in NOrth America and extended trade routes over much of North and Central America. Spanish colonizers, in order to consolidate power, concentrated many tribes together into single large camps and forced them to speak 1 of three languages, Nahuatl, SPanish or Latin. Some may acquiesce to your calling them Mexican on account of the overall ignorance regarding the many different groups within that generalization, they may very well not know what tribe or clan they descend from as a result of forced relocation by colonizers. You could say that it would be similar to calling a Cherokee, a Kwakiutl; or say a !kung san, a Bantu, or a Scot, an Irishman. Because of different levels of world awareness about the particular sensitivities of certain people being termed the same as nearby neighbors, some people are conscious of the term Mexican and how it generalizes very distinct language, cultural and regional groups of people. My wife is Matlatzincan and I am mixed Chichimeca and Taino. Our cultures, being essentially tribal in origin, are not so alien from the cultures of other tribal societies like parts of Pakistan, India, Arabia, Indonesia et alia. Sometimes the major differences I notice between my friends who are Pakistani and the ones who are Oaxacan or Zacatecan (Mexican) is why and in what language we call what we eat, do what we do. Regards, QAK |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| Kathy |
| 01/02/02 at 09:52:20 |
| slm Simplify this for me. If someone was born in Mexico or their parents were- are they Mexican? |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| kiwi25 |
| 01/02/02 at 12:13:41 |
| salam, going along with what kathy said.... have any of you been told that even if were born in a country (lets take algeria, for ex, i was born there) but because i was raised in the USA, people told me that im american, not algerien but my parents are algerein,i was born there, so what does that make me ??? am i also making sense here :o ! wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| akbalkhan |
| 01/02/02 at 14:15:51 |
| As Salamu Alayka, I really feel bad sometimes because I make generalizations that could be taken the wrong way. I really think that some where in there is a good point though. Those who dominate the world, those few, elite, who have through the ages, been the ones to demarcate arbitrary lines on a map, from 1,000's of miles a way, oftentimes pitting brother vs. brother, family vs. family, neighbor vs. neighbor, and then swooping in after all of the chaos and infighting that weaken everyone's resolve to whip up great defence, to make nice little vacation homes and cheap work forces, have set many on a path of ignorance regarding particulars on ancestry and land ownership. Its part of the melting pot theory. I do not personally believe that just because someone is born somewhere, or even if 5 generations had been born in a place, that they are any more qualified to represent a legitimate land claim, ancestry, or ethnical link to that place. We are told in al-Islam to honor our ancestors, where we come from, not where we end up. Again, the word mexican, is taken from the original language of those people, a language much like Navajo, or Hopi, called Nahuatl. It means 'mexi-', or moon, and '-catl', a person of. Those who called themselves this originally were a tribal people, who shared a native language, and homeland. A person whose ancestors originally came from Spain, may or may not have stolen land, unrightly claimed it, murdered for it, or bought it from someone who most likely did or was coerced to sell, but they still cannot legitimately call themselves 'Mexican,' although many people do. Some people think that it is cool or exotic, or cheaper on passports and frequent travel to say they are such and such because they were born there, and some people may just not know where they are from, but either way, it does not make it right nor respectful to call yourself a name that represents a blood and culture you are not. So no matter who draws a line through a map, or how many generations have lived somewhere, a native American, tribal affiliation can never apply without some kind of claim to the blood. Mexican, although not recognized in the U.S.(for obvious economic reasons), or Mexico, is not officially recognized as an American Indian nation or tribe. Linguistically and genetically, Mexican does refer to a distinct group of people, among many distinct native groups, in a large geographic area. Demographic tests have shown that in the genes of so-called 'Mexicans' 90% are distinctly Native American genes. There are some Mexicans who would deny their 'Indian'-ness because of the brainwashing that occurred in the 20th century that made people to think that to be Indian meant to be rebellious, dirty, uncivilised, etc. So in order to assimilate easier they took Spanish names, or were forced to take them, and laid claim to any Spanish blood possible. There has been a resurgence in Mexican politics and sociology among the youth, that has attempted to reclaim original clan and tribe names and ancestry, as well as to dispell myths and clarify land ownership issues with regards to who are the rightful stewards, the original inhabitants of course. its kind of like the Palestinian situation. the world knows that the Palestinians are the original inhabitants, and this has been proven genetically, historically. no one could ever go to Palestine, including Israel, and say that Palestinians do not belong there. they can only say, they cause so much trouble we have to move them, or that they too are original inhabitants and have rights to the land as well. but something the Israelis could never do is call themselves Palestinians. but since Mexican history is only popular for its aztecs and human sacrifices, no one considers the struggle of Mexico's indigenous populations to regain control over the land and their identity as a sovereignity or legitimacy issue. Many Americans are likely to say, well you lost the wars, we took the land, the past is the past, so deal with it. And many Spaniards, Italians, Frenchman, Dutch and Jewish who move to Mexico, or whose families have lived there a long time call themselves Mexican. but that my brothers and sisters is not the end of story. Regards, QAK |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| solehah |
| 01/10/02 at 00:04:42 |
| Salaam Ooookkkkkk LOL this is absolutely fantastic Bro QAK. Anthropology was one of my majors in Uni and I studied the social systems of the Native American and tribal cultures but I still found your explanation of the Mexicans fascinating and new. Well..all I can say is this. By race, I am defined as Javanese but by ethnicity ? LOL..I am human and more importantly I am MUSLIM. Nothing else matter. Wassalam. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| akbalkhan |
| 01/10/02 at 00:47:54 |
| As Salamu Alayka, Solehah, I am glad you appreciated my assessment. It is some pretty serious stuff to not know your lineage. In the Mid East during the time of the Prophet, SAWS, it was pretty rare or embarrassing to not know who your parents, parents, parents, parents, and so on, were. Nowadays it seems like people do not care, or they are more concerned to melt into some kind of human alloy of cultures and ethnicities. If you are proud of lineage, people think you hate other people automatically, or that you are supremacist or something. Here is a hadith that mention the subject: Book 001, Number 0128: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: Two (things) are found among men which are tantamount to unbelief: slandering one's lineage and lamentation on the dead. There are others that speak to claiming a lineage that is not yours, as well, but I cannot find it right now. Insha'Allah, I will post them when I find them if you like. Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan Oh yeah, as I told the board before, my name is actually in Mayan except for the Qamar. Akbal means 'house' and 'Kan or Kaan' means a couple of things, jade/sky are two of them. My name means Moon in a house of jade, or something to that effect. |
| Re: Marital Converts |
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| solehah |
| 01/10/02 at 22:34:24 |
| Salaam [quote]Nowadays it seems like people do not care, or they are more concerned to melt into some kind of human alloy of cultures and ethnicities. If you are proud of lineage, people think you hate other people automatically, or that you are supremacist or something. [/quote] Hmmm...when I say that nothing else matters, can that be construed as me not caring abt my lineage ? Let me clarify. I am of mixed blood so to trace down one pure ethnic line to identify with is kinda difficult for me. I am very much aware of my Javanese blood but I am also extremely aware of my Malaccan blood. What about my Dutch and Portuguese and Chinese blood ? I have in the past tried to identify with being who I am and of my heritage but I end up getting stifled. I guess when I say that nothing else matters, I was referring to separatist acts. Its very good to know that someone such as you want to know your people and your lineage for the right reasons but there are those who think that race or ancestry justify arrogance and hatred. I guess from what I have learned and accepted, its what you identify with ethnically thats far more important. I was searching for my identity for quite some time before I realise that I am comfortable being a Muslim. Everything else is secondary. that doesnt mean they are not important, just secondary. BTW, my Javanese name (endowed by my late grandfather) means The softness of the breeze. And yes I would be interested to know abt what you can tell me. Wassalam. |
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